What do you guys think based on the pictures? I for one am looking forward to trying it out and comparing it to my NICE frame and Terraframe in terms of comfort. I only live an hour from the soon to be headquarters so Ill be sure to do a comparison for you guys when it comes out.

Kuiu Icon Frame






[img:left]http://kuiu.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dsc_00521.jpg[/img]
[img:left]http://kuiu.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dsc_00532.jpg[/img]
[img:left]http://kuiu.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dsc_00421.jpg[/img]

Interesting.

For a few applications might be ok. Looks awfully short to my eyes and there's no way to get it shaped to one's back if yours falls outside their pre-bent shape... unless they're offering custom shaping which would be great.

I can't believe that thing will be in the same load carrying class as the Terraframe, but I've been wrong before.

Seems to borrow heavily from Arcteryx Altra... that's a problem for me... the full wrap around hipbelt with the Altra-like riser bump in the lumbar is a torture device for my back. I absolutely MUST have a good lumbar pad with belt passing behind it.

Would add, there's a reason full wrap around belts were mostly abandoned years ago by most pack makers... seems a new generation of young pack designers are fixing to re-discover what was figured out in the early-mid 1980's...

I think it's a great idea and looks pretty solid. I'm highly interested myself, Of course a lot will have to do with the bag

Bags are going to be interchangeable.

Looking forward to your review! Don't forget the numbers will be limited so get it quick when they come out in May.

The execution and workmanship(especially the carbon fiber) looks nice. I will be curious to see what sort of bags become available.

However, my back is a bit on the curvy side, so I don't know how I would fare with such a pack.

Tim, when I get some time I'll put up a review of the Altra 75 from last summer... pretty disappointing pack in the important ways (suspension) and I re-learned why I dislike full wrap around belts so much (for my curvy back)... hadn't had one since they mostly disappeared in the early 80's

I would like that, Brad.
Thanks!

This pack has been the topic of a few conversations at the gym lately. I'm in wait and see mode, and hoping one of my buddies takes to plunge so I can check it out.

Carbon fiber, like most materials, comes with pros and cons. Here's a few that relate to pack design:

Pros - High strength to weight ratio and can be custom designed for shape and flex.
Cons - Shape cannot be altered by user and when it breaks it's broken.

What I find interesting is the sudden resurgence of CF in pack frames. Kuiu, Kifaru and Titanium Goat all have new packs out this year with CF in one form or another. My first real mountaineering pack, a Gregory Denali Pro from some 20 years ago, actually had CF stays. It was touted at the time as state of the art and the next evolution in pack frame construction. You can imagine my surprise when a few years later Gregory went back to aluminum stays in the same pack. :-)

Wayne Gregory shaped the stays to the users back as I recall, as a custom option (the carbon was offered as an upgrade over aluminum). At least that was the state of things in the mid 80's when I got my first Gregory. Same currently with Kifaru I believe.

Absolutely nothing wrong with carbon fiber stays, just can't fathom not being able to custom fit the stuff... although likely not as critical with the full wraparound belt... which is another thing I can't believe some makers are going back to...

I wonder if flex will be an issue with a framesheet that thin?

Patrick Smith commented on his search for a wood/CF laminate and said that pure CF flexed too much to properly transfer really heavy loads to the hips. He eventually found a solution he was happy with.

Just wondering if testers will experience that with the Ti Goat and Kuiu frames?

With Kifaru, Ti Goat, and Kuiu all coming out with carbon fiber based frames it'll be fun reading reviews for the next year or so.

Looks interesting! One thing for sure, companies are sure giving us some GREAT options these days.

Maybe.

Brad,
Not just referring to this concept, lot's of good stuff to try nowadays.

Good points guys. Be nice to let some other guys test out the packs with there $500++ CF seems like a cool idea though...

Just wishing someone would buy the rights to start remaking the old K2/Dana Externals. The would make a killing as they are a premier load hualer.. Wonder why Mystery Ranch does not make it as a "Classic Design" or something... With a few modern upgrades of course.... : ) New materials, upgraded waist belt, some old magic wands..

Chip in every area EXCEPT packs I'm absolutely with you... honestly I feel that pack design has, for the most part, gone backwards.

Brad,
Interesting as the whole pack world has made quantum leaps for me. However, don't EVEN get me started on boots! Sheesh!

I note that the Kuiu has magic wands much like the Dana externals. They're part of the frame, but serve the same function. I also note that there are quite a few internals with similar wands. To me, those wands are the genius of the Dana externals. Everything else about the Dana externals is solid, but pretty ho-hum. Lots of room for improvement.

I've wondered more than once if Dana is getting any kind of royalties on all of the "magic wands" out there, or even if he was the first to use them.

I noticed that too... however, they seemingly dispensed with shapable stays and went with a full surround belt. Big step backwards IMO.

Aside, Osprey borrowed the "side wands" from Dana (where they first showed on internals, not externals) and, IMO, made a better pack with the 1990's Fusion, then later Crescent's.

Arcteryx also borrowed them on the Bora line and still have them. The Osprey Argon still has them in a slightly different guise... yeah, they work and was one of the best three or four design features of the original DD packs to me.

There's plethora of new packs on the market without removable stays. Pack makers are increasingly taking away options rather than offering substantive ones. With few exceptions, packs are increasingly getting lighter, but not better IMO.

Internal frame designs that rely on aluminum stays NEED to have them removable for precise individual fit. Some frames, like the Granite gear which are flexible and bend to the back, aren't in this category, but are more of a hybrid, but they're also limited in weight carrying ability IME.

As a visual example, below are the stays from an Arcteryx Bora 80... on the left is how they come from the manufacturer... on the right is how they look shaped to my back... explain to me how not being able to shape stays is a good thing?

I've heard the explanation (excuse) you can bend them without removing them... and get the fit precise? No way.

Thankfully, while the Bora 80 is not a "perfect" pack (no pack is), at least some Arcteryx, some Mystery Ranch, and Kifaru packs (and a few others) haven't lost sight of the need for removable stays...

Pretty good difference between 'as is' and 'modified' on those stays, Brad.
Makes me wonder if I need to have a look at mine, though I am happy with the fit on my Bora 50 as is-kind of that curiosity thing going on.

My dana alpine and terraplane have some sort of side wand setup like that on my terraframe and longbed. Not as obvious, but same concept.

Well, most of you guys know more about packboards than I do but at least for right now, I'm kinda sceptacle (sp?). The first thing I wanna know about is the buckle. I have yet to find a PLASTIC buckle that doesn't allow the belt to slip. I finally found a old, used Kelty packboard & took the METAL buckle off it. Doggone if'n it don't work better, as it should.
IMHO, there are points of ridiculousness when it comes to outdoor gear. No one can convince me that saving a couple of ounces of an item makes any difference. Proper function is more important to me than saving an ounce or two.
The second contention I have with this packboard is that at least from the photos, there is no way to strap your rifle across it for walking. I am not going to place my rifle in some kind of holster that attaches to my frame. I carry my rifle strapped across the uprights of my packboard with nylon, quick release straps. Very functional and fast to take off the packboard & release the rifle. BTDT.
Finally, I'm just leery of the fitted form of the frame itself. Looks to me that a person is "locked" into one hiking position and for a long trip, could become uncomfortable.
Perhaps I'm mistaken on any or all of my points but I'm from the old school of the KISS principle. If you have something that works, don't screw with it. Maybe I'll be proven wrong tho.
Bear in Fairbanks

Yepper, we talked about that three posts up. The side-wands were one of the really good Dana innovations IMO.

Got this off their blog.. read below
_________________________________________________

KUIU�s Brand and Product Influences

DWR going off

We are fans of product driven brands. Brands that deliver best in class product, lead an industry and continue driving to reset the bar. Brands with products that are truly remarkable, creating discussion by exceeding consumer expectations. Studying successful brands is how we have modeled KUIU.

Below are some of my favorite brand influencers for KUIU. Please let us know your favorites and lets add to this list�.

Arc�teryx
Patagonia
MSR
Big Agnes
Osprey
Apple

Guess I wasn't far off... and it's a problem as far as I can see.

Lots of young guys doing stuff with entrepreneurial spirit... that's a good thing. What's bad thing is not learning the lessons of those that went before you. That's the affliction of youth.

Brad, I think it has more to do with lack of historical perspective. Where are you going to pick up a history of outdoor gear design from 1970 to 2010 if you didn't live it? There aren't really any good resources otherwise.

I haven't taken the time to do it, but I've been planning to put together an online pack museum for a couple of packs I've got including a Lowe external frame and a DeFrance Trickster. The Trickster in particular was a really unique design consisting of an HDPE framesheet with a single stay that can be used as a pack frame by itself, or with the attached bag. The bag can also be used in daypack mode without the frame sheet. It has a couple of other really interesting features as well. How on earth would I know about this pack and its features if my sister hadn't bought one in the early 90s?

Maybe asking question's and not assuming you know is a place to start? Seems if you're a young guy trying to build a pack you'd ask questions on forum like these. Just a thought. I would have thought excellent ideas would be forth coming from a variety of perspectives and experience levels.

In the short time I have been here I have learned more than many other forums combined. This would have been one of the first places I would have come to seek advice from you old timers. Im a young buck and that seems obvious to me. Forums like these are invaluable sources of information.

Thinking this frame over... obviously it's an external. A new twist on the old tubular aluminum stuff. Reminds be a bit of The North Face "Back Magic" from the late 70's. Guess time will tell if its up to the task of carrying heavy loads which is certainly the primary reason for an external...

It does remind me of the TNF Black Magic with the lumbar pivot. As I recall that pack would tilt like crazy once it started going.

Totally true Ed... I remember what an abomination that pack was. Course the Back magic lacked the side wands of the KUIU.

Yes, the side wands should help a lot to stabilize it. My big question is if the frame will be rigid enough with 125+ pound loads.

It is a very nice looking pack though. Very refind looking.

I'm not sure if I see an advantage on lumbar pivot, especially on uneven ground, wouldn't the low side pivot put the weight on your shoulders, while high side would move it to high unless there was some sort equalizing at the shoulders.

Why is the lumbar pad better than the wrap around belt ? I have a couple older externals and find the wrap around belt to be fine.

Seems to me the lumbar puts some angle on the belt (which is good) but that is something that could be done on a wrap around as well if you wanted the padding added.

What you want to do is most efficiently transfer load to your hips in a comfortable way that keeps the load solid. It could be wands, connectors or whatever, but for load hauling it needs to be something.

Personally, it seems to me the hip belt is way overbuilt on a lot of load haulers to where they do not hug the hips well enough to support the load

Kevin

Lots of critique.. No problem with that, but...
KUIU desinged this pack for the high country sheep hunter.. Sure its unproven, but what's out there that is better and proven?

From my quick read KUIU's focus is light weight, quality gear. What light weight pack out there competes with or blows his away? Would be interested to hear your thoughts..

Thanks!

Anything that is proven is better than something unproven - regardless of weight. There are lots of other places to cut weight, and no lack of proven packs. A pack is the last place that I personally am interested in cutting weight.

This KUIU pack frame is a very radical design that does indeed look quite refined. Because it is a radical design, it has more to prove than a pack composed of more traditional proven features. I think that's where the critique is coming from. Once this thing has proven itself in the market, it may indeed be without peer.

What's a proven light weight pack in a modern design, specifically designed for sheep hunting or the equivalent exercise?
Sure a Barney's can haul a house, but its no nimble light weight thing....

Previous comments mentioned specific Acr'Teryx or Osprey packs. Are these the proven sheep pack?

If you were asked to review the new KUIU against the top 3-5 competing packs what would they be?

Great way to phrase the question. Now I understand where you're coming from.

I haven't been sheep hunting specifically, but I've traveled in sheep country and read accounts of hunts. As I understand it, the requirements for a "sheep hunting" pack are decent stability for steep and rugged off trail travel, as well as the ability to carry 80+ pound loads on the way in and 100+ pound loads on the way out. I do have experience with both of those sets of requirements.

Out of the packs that I own, I'd choose the Dana terraframe hands down, no question. It sways a little more than an internal, but carries weight far better than any internal I've used. It's no longer made, and therefore not really "modern".

In answer to your question, the packs that would make my comparison list are any of the top makers' largest "expedition" packs. There is no such thing as a nimble light load of 80+lbs. You have to choose a pack geared for those weights:

- Kifaru LH
- MR G7000
- Gregory Denali Pro

I have reasons to believe that the Osprey and Arcteryx offerings top out at around 60lbs, but I suppose I'd include them in a test just to prove or disprove that bias.

No currently made externals would make my list. Not enough load control -- too dangerous for rugged off trail travel.

A svelte, lightweight pack that truly carries 80+ pounds (and the volume that that implies) well is indeed news.

My choice would be a Kifaru Ultra Light 5200 hands down.

I think that the Bora's top out around 90 and can't comment on the Osprey since I've never used one.

Barney's isn't the lightest sure, but I have mine now setup for hunts starting with just the Barney's frame is down to 4.25 pounds. The frame with 3700 cu in is 5.5 pounds. Frame with 5600 cu in is 6.1 pounds. Frame with 8100 cu in is 7.5 pounds. Frame with 9900 cu in is 8.1 pounds. So while I can haul a house with it at 8100 cu in I is still over 2 pounds lighter than my Mystery Ranch 6500. On pair weight wise with the Kifaru LH 8500. Same weight as the Arctery Bora 95L (5600 cu In).

So if you know how to dress down the Barney's frame for pure function you can get the weight down to the competing top internals and likely hands down hauls 100+ pounds better than most any other pack, and likely the most proven "sheep pack" in Alaska. Have used Barney's and a number of the high end hunting "internal frames" and really haven't found myself saying "man I am glad I have this internal frame on the side of this mountain instead of an external."

The Kifaru UL packs are, for now, in a class of their own as far as weight. They haven't been proven really yet as only a few choice people have used them for but a year or two so time will tell how they hold up over time. Great packs if they can stand up to years of shale scoots and rock slides though, but I am skeptical on that.

Bottom line the pack only has to work for you. Be a CF pack frame that could possibly shatter if dropped in the rocks with weight on it scares me a bit. Hope it works great, but stuff happens.....

The Kifaru Ultra Light has surely proved worthy of carrying as much weight as I will ever want to or be capable of carrying. Granted I have only one hinting season on it, but since hnting season, I have been dragging it in and out of the truck while loaded with salt for training hikes with no sign of distress.

The final version of the KU will be quite a bit more rugged than my prototype as well. With very little weight gain.

I think the KUIU Ion has lots of promise and I wish them the best.

Ed,

No doubt the KU packs are capable of carrying weight. Just wondering how they would hold up to buttslides down hillsides and what not. I really want one, but am a little apprehensive to throw down the coin without atleast a couple years of testing by more than a few. No doubt Patrick pick some great people to put it through the paces. But as far as wear and tear remains to be seen. Heck I have holes in my MR 6500 after just two season as crampons, rocks, ice axes, and what not all seem to find their way to a pack at some point.

Very much look forward to hearing the reviews from both Kuiu and Kifaru on these new packs. Worst case, I end up hauling an extra 4 pounds up and down the mountains for a few years waiting for the packs to prove themselves.

Besides hopefully by then Kifaru will have a KU 7000 or something as I have a heck of a time fitting all my gear for a week and an animal with meat and cape in 6500 inches with stuff strappsed to the outside and the collar fully extended. Hard to imagine trying to squeeze it into a 5200 .

Luke,

No doubt a 500d or better yet 1000d Cordura pack will out wear the KU, but that is one of the trade offs to loose so much weight. I don't think the KU are for everybody and Patrick must feel the same way as they aren't replacing any of the heavier packs.

I have owned a couple Longhunters, both G1 & G2 and a Siwash and they were great packs and carried heavy weight very well, especially the G2. But every time I would pick it up empty, I wonder what was in it. The KU's are like a day pack with the capability to carry big loads.

I don't think you are alone in wanting a KU 6500-7500 and I wound't be suprised if we see one in the future. For most of my trips anymore, I can get by with the 5200, the rest of the trips I can add a pod and a couple long pockets and be OK, but there are some areas and trips where a bigger pack is really necessary.

I hope I wear out my KU, 'cause I'm pretty sure that would take one heck of a lot of trips over quit a few years and I wouldn't mind getting out that much.

What do you guys know about the material being used for the packs?


"The pack fabric, is a new 100% Nylon 160D 165g/m2 rip-stop Cordura. It is durable, abrasion resistant and the quietest lightweight fabric I have found and tested for packs."

HAHA....I have no doubt with the way you get out you will have no problems putting the pack to the test over the next few years. But if you start to neglect that G2 8500 I may have to come steal it. Keep us posted on how the pack fairs really excited to see how these things work.

The Arcteryx Bora and Osprey Crescents will handle whatever you put in them... certainly 90lbs isn't out of the question.

Actually, in theory they should handle more than the Gregory Denali Pro, Kifaru G2 or non-NICE framed Mystery Ranch...

I agree Brad. The Osprey Aether 85 (lighter frame than the Argon) I carried on a long backcountry trip last summer with 50-60 pounds in it the entire time and never felt as if it was sagging. I would think the Argon could easily handle 80+ with the stiffer frame.

Luke,

The G2 8500 is already gone.

My thought is the I like the Ku so much that even if I were to go back to a LH frame for packing big loads of meat, the KU will be my go to pack for all backpacking trips.

I'm talking Crescent, not Argon or Aether... the old Crescent is definitely stouter than the Argon, but the Argon seems like a decent compromise between the old Crescent frame and the Aether for sure...

Brad,

I know what you mean. The Crescent was slightly stouter than the Argon so it could likely pack more.

Ed,

I seem to remember you selling that now and me having to restrain myself. Must not buy anymore packs...must not buy anymore packs...... I do not need a KU yet

Icon 3000 review

http://kuiu.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/icon-3000-review/

it looks very nice.

TTT....the Icon 6000 is now up with pics and notes....interesting to say the least...

When a mfg puts up a "review" of their own product I tend to take it with a grain of salt... a "review", really?

I wish them well, but that pack isn't for my back. Others less-curvy backs might love it.

Ya, I know what you mean Brad...hence why I called it 'notes' as I dont really think its a 'review' until they hit the hills on some guys.

Interesting for sure....hard to put down my MR pack to try something new but I may take it for a test spin at one point...

They aren't coming in as light as I thought they would..

The 6000 Review is up as well:

http://kuiu.wordpress.com/2011/02/01/icon-6000-review/



I might be missing something here, but I recall reading about Kifaru, Mystery Ranch and McHale that their load distributions moved weight to your hips to bear a good part of the weight. Lowering the center of gravity of the pack making it more comfortable for heavy loads. Just thinking out loud, but it seems that your lower back is the last place you would want bearing your pack weight.

Ya..I saw that too. Im pretty sure its just worded wrong.