It has probably been covered before, but what are the pros and cons of internal frame packs vs. external frame packs. I' always used an external frame, but before I b a new one, I want to get some opinions.

Yes, it's been covered so a search may help. It's getting harder to buy a good external frame backpack for ordinary backpacking. Internal frame packs have just about taken over the BP market. There's still some excellent choices in external frame packs for hunting or carrying bulky/heavy loads.

You'd have to let us know what use the pack is likely to see. To catagorize a pack as an "internal frame" pack covers so much ground as to convey almost no meaning at all. You can readily find internal frame packs that are itsy bitsy and designed for tiny loads up to packs that will control and support more weight than any person should try to carry.

The pros and cons of external vs. internal frames are easier to discuss if you tell us what you plan to do with the pack.

In all likelihood, for most uses, you'll have several good choices of different internal frame packs and very few choices for good, presently made external frame packs.

djs:

This post will generate some controversy, but not as much as in the past.

I started backpacking over fifty years ago when the only packs available were canvas haversacks and knapsacks and frames were wooden with canvas panels. They had canvas shoulder straps and no hip belts. I upgraded to an external frame as soon as they became available. I used several varieties including "S" frames, hipwire frames, lightweight aluminum frames, and semi-rigid plastic panel frames. I managed to bust the shelf on a meat hauler frame the first time that I put an elk hind quarter on it.



I am pretty set in my ways and slow to change so when internal frame packs first hit the market I thought that they were just some fad for weenies. So I didn't buy my first internal frame pack until about twenty-five years ago. Once I learned how to use it, I was hooked. I now own several internal frame packs of various size and strength and use the pack best suited to the task. I gave away a couple of external frame packs and discarded a couple more. But there are still a couple that sit in the shed gathering dust.



There is now little doubt that an internal frame is more comfortable for general backpacking specially when carrying loads less than 30#, which is the max that most modern backpackers carry. Many carry less than 20#.



There are still some people (and I suppose there always wil be some) who have not yet switched over to an internal frame pack. To many people it seems counter-intuitive to use an internal frame pack for hauling heavy loads but when used properly, an internal frame pack is considerably more comfortable than an external frame pack even for hauling meat. It takes a while to learn to use the adjustments to max out comfort, but once you get the idea, you'll never go back to an external.

The quality of your backpack will make the difference between backpacking comfort and backpacking misery. Start by eliminating everything but those packs that have the very best suspension systems on the market. Kifaru, Mystery Ranch and Osprey all make superior suspension systems. Then make sure that the pack fits you. It doesn�t matter how good the suspension system is, if it doesn�t fit, you will be miserable.

Unless you are going to use the pack for a specific purpose, like ice climbing, all the other features are just whistles and bells for the tourists. All the flashy gimmicks and nifty features in the world can�t make a lousy suspension system carry well or make a poorly fitting pack comfortable.

I use to think that I needed a big pack. But after fifty years of backpacking and hundreds of trips, I have learned to use a small pack and keep it as lightweight as I can. A big pack can weigh three pounds more than a small pack. Also if you use a small pack, it forces you to carry less stuff because excess junk simply won�t fit into a smaller pack.

My biggest pack has a capacity of 6,400 cu.in. and it weighs 7#, but I no longer use that for general backpacking. I only use it for hauling out elk hind quarters. My general use backpack is an Osprey Exposure 66. It has a volume of 4,000 cu.in. and weighs less than 4#. It�s no longer in production and has been replaced by the Atmos series of Osprey packs.

The biggest difference between internal frame packs and external frame packs is comfort. Internal frame packs balance better than an external frame pack, and internal frame packs conform to your body instead of forcing your body to conform to the pack. Internal frame packs will fit closer to your back and that reduces the backward pull of the pack so you can stand up straight. Internal frame packs have lots of adjustments and you can fiddle with them throughout the day to distribute the weight to different muscles and give other muscles a rest.

KC

Hey, but it reads well for the crowd that doesn't plan on shooting anything.

I own four old dana packs - terraplane (internal), alpine (internal), terraframe (external) and longbed (external). All four have carried meat.

Loaded with a one-trip deer/sheep plus camp load (north of 130# if you're even remotely responsible about meat salvage), there really is no contest. External in a landslide.

Loaded with a half deer/sheep plus camp load (partner hunt - 90# or so), it's even money.

I had both the alpine and the terraframe (frame only) with on this year's moose hunt. The pack to the river was an easy 3/8 mile on firm ground, so I tried loading the alpine with as much loose meat as it can carry. Bottom to top, 5500+ ci of meat. The 150# + load was manageable, but the subsequent 120-140# hindquarter and shoulder/ribcage loads were markedly better on the terraframe. Getting into these packs and standing up while solo was a bit of a trick...

Yutzing around over hill and dale "hunting", or to concentrate gear while road hunting, then yes, something smaller will probably work. The Mystery Ranch boutique hunting daypacks that have same chassis as the big packs can actually do some good, but if you have to add any bulk (i.e. camp and clothing) to the meat and hunting gear load, you'll quicky run out of places to tie things. Better in than out.

Externals have their place. That place is way back in with something really heavy to carry out. Sounds like a backpack hunt.

Vek, I notice both of the externals you mention are the Danas. Of course I've said it before, but the Dana externals are head and shoulders above any pack I've carried (lowa, kifaru, gregory, osprey) for loads over about 50-60 lbs. I wonder if the same is true of "normal" externals?

It's been a lot of years since I carried a normal external (camp trails freighter, peak 1 plastic), and I just don't remember myself.

Both of those externals - CT Freighter and Peak 1 are pretty pathetic, even with lighter loads. I still have my old Freighter, its rotting away in the shed.

MtnHtr

KC, is that an Alpenlite frame pack?

Barney's and Dana are head, shoulders, and belly above older kelty/REI/camptrails/coleman/jansport externals. I don't think one can mention the bottom tier externals in the same context as anything you'd consider using for hunting these days. It certainly isn't difficult to procure a barney new or dana from ebay or craigslist.

I got around ten packs laying around. Tried them all one time or another but always keep going back to my Barney's external frame with the Barney's pinnacle bag. Still my favorite.

HAHA oh so true.

After 3 years of using a Mystery Ranch NICE 6500 pack I am heading back to a Barney's Pinnacle. For the weight its hard to beat the volume and how well they haul the 120+ loads.

Sure its not quite as comfy as say an Osprey or Arcteryx with just 40-50 lbs but the amount of comfort more the internal pack offer at that load range is barley noteworthy. But load it up with over a 100 lbs and the Barney's quickly becomes more comfy for me.

Even the NICE 6500 is more comfy slight with just "going in" weight but the Barney's is still comfier FOR ME when coming out with real loads.

When I crunch the numbers of 10 lbs and 6500 cu in for a MR NICE or 7800 uc in and 7.5 lbs for a Barney's Pinnacle it makes it hard to say no.

Yes I already have a Kifaru KU 5200, but in my testing with 100 lb packs the Barney's is more comfy than that pack anyways. Which is ok as I bought it mainly for my wife to use as she'll likely never pack anything over 75 lbs. Which means if we are coming out with a sheep I'll easily be over 120 lbs.

Maybe I like to be overly optimistic in my hunting and use a pack based on the weight and comfort for the trip out (hopefully loaded down with an animal) rather than the pack comfort based on the weight going in, but I've come to the point where I'll trade not QUITE as comfy Barney's External frame pack going in over a not as comfy internal frame when coming out with an animal. Rarely do I cuss my pack weight going in. Its when I am coming out with weight is when my pack fit and function really matters to me.

That said pack fit like most things takes precedence and just because external works better for me with 100-130 lb loads than internals doesn't mean externals are the only way to go. Many (most) would rather rock internals for packing out loads and I was one of them up until the end of last season with 3 different 12+ mile 100 lb extractions from the field. For backpack hunting I have found that is what works for me.

For dayhunting out of a backpack (which I don't really consider backpack hunting) where I might be hauling a say a bear hide back to the truck or something then the internals are what I prefer for their lighter weight and sleeker design when hauling 75-80 lb loads for relatively short distances (3-5 miles).

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2271398/1

I've never had a real internal frame I thought was sufficient. In my mind most hip belts are way over padded, and that keeps them from actually gripping your hips and doing what they should.

I have a jansport external (not a D series, it's a really mini frame, with a foliage ish cordura back) that I got at a thrift store that is my favorite pack for loads in the 50 lb range and the hip belt is so minimal. I suspect I could carry 65 -70 with it. I also have a ULA epic, that is the mot comfy pack in the 30 lb range I have seen. I'm going to try to reinforce the frame and build a MR style bag for hunting, to get it in the 75 lb range.

The MR crewcab , while solid wouldn't hold on my hips since the hipbelt was so hard. I carried 110 in it and it was ok but not for me. Likewise, I briefly had the badlands ox, and frame wise it will carry the 150 or so (I put people in the sling and carried them up the stairs) but the hipbelt was to big as well, and the pack weighed closer to 8 lbs than I wanted.

IMO when a pack gets that heavy, then you really want to supplement it with a lighter pack for day hunting , then you are stuck without a way to carry the weight etc, and it becomes more of a hassle than it is worth.

maybe it's just the way we hunt up here, but my experience dang near mirrors Vek's, bearstalker's and aklanche's.


I don't have as many packs as some guys have listed on here, but I do have a MR NICE 6500, Kifaru KU 5200 (just got it and still testing), McHale ((don't recall model) and yes a Barney's that's hauled more heavy loads than it or my old body should have.


if I know there's a good chance I'm going to have to haul most of a sheep and my gear off a mountain and make a 12 mile trek back to the truck, or gonna have to haul moose quarters cross country, I'd reach for the Barney's every time.

maybe it's just the familiarity, but that ole pack and me are no strangers to heavy loads together.




have to look close to see the sheep horns lashed to the top of the frame, but they're there and lotsa meat in the pack

take a knee:

Yes that's an Alpenlite pack. That photo was taken a long time ago, maybe in the early eightys.

KC

alaska lanche:

It's been a long time since I carried 100# loads in a backpack. I prefer to carry more loads that are smaller. I just don't have what it takes to do that kind of hauling any more. Getting old I guess.

KC

While not exactly fun many times its part of the gig that has to be be done. When you are 20 miles back making two trips often isn't an option since it would require so much longer to make two 50-60 pound loads vs. one 100-120 pound load. Like I said its not fun but sometimes needed so might as well use the 1 ton truck instead of the half ton for the trip out even though the half ton takes the bumps a bit smoother on the way in

I'm with the guys voting for external frame. That's all I've ever used here in Ak. but my experiences pretty well mirrors theirs. The closest "experience" I've had with an internal pack was the one my partner bought. Offhand, I don't recall the manufacturer but it's one of the well known/popular ones. On our last trip into the Brooks, that pack damn near killed him. We were coming out, unsuccesfully, I might add and he was loaded down so heavily that the pack wouldn't allow him to stand upright. The entire trip he had to walk bent over. Not good. He now has a Barney's frame coming and is gonna use it on this year's trip. I won't own an internal frame. In addition, I carry my rifle strapped across the uprights of my frame. It's very easy and fast to throw off my packboard and get to my rifle should I need to. Never could understand a guy carrying a rifle in his hands in the mountains.
Just my experiences of quite a few years in the bush.
Bear in Fairbanks

I've been using my Osprey Aether 70 for my back pack hunts and just recently picked up a Molle type meat hauler. I am planning on strapping it to my Osprey and using the frame for my day hunts. Once I connect on a ram then I will have the frame to pack out the meat, head and cape back to camp.

Last time I shot my ram I used the Cabelas Feighter version and I could not keep that heavy load on my hips and it was really uncomfortable, but luckily I only had about a mile to pack it back to the 4 wheeler. I eventually broke the aluminum frame on it and that's when I decided to try the Molle type packframe.

All the discussions above bring up an interesting issue. The packs built for backpacking are increasingly designed to carry lighter smaller loads than would have been the case 20 years ago. For hunters who may have to carry large loads over rough terrain, increasingly it's harder to buy a suitable pack from a mainline pack maker.

I held onto my old Kelty Tioga R until just a few years ago because it would allow me to haul big loads with low drama. It fit, the suspension was heavy duty, and the frame was very strong. I added a better hipbelt and none of my lighter packs could match it for those heavy loads. It was a pretty mainstream pack when I bought it. Nowadays that kind of load carrying capacity is hard to come by without buying from a specialty maker.

Very few packmakers ( who don't otherwise directly cater to the military and hunter market)build any kind of pack with a realistic expectation that someone will stuff 80 lbs or more in the pack and carry it.

I haven't seen many cheap packs that will take the kind of beating a hunting pack has got to take. It doesn't seem to matter what kind of frame- cheap fails. It used to be that you could buy a better pack for comparable money by buying an external frame. I don't think that's necessarily true anymore. It seems as if external frame packs are divided into the super cheap pile and then the specialty mfg packs which are not cheap at all.
It doesn't help matters that you can't just waltz down to sportmart and try on a good hunting pack or get competent help in getting the pack fitted. Even a great pack that's badly fitted will just torture someone. We've all seen the poor schmuck walking bent over because the pack is fitted or adjusted wrong.

I now use an internal frame pack for backpack hunting. Technically, it's' an internal frame design but with all of the design elements tweaked for carrying a heavy load, it's more of a hybrid. It works better on rough terrain or in the brush than my old external frame ever did. I sure don't miss the top heavy carry, the the sound of the frame scraping on stuff or the frame hanging up overhead in low brush or limbs. I don't know if it would do as well as a Barney's pack. The limit is me. My knees and ankles will pack it in well before the pack makes me suffer.

If I'm choosing a pack for ordinary hiking or backpacking, it's going to be an internal frame pack. If I was recommending a pack for someone who intends to carry heavy loads of meat, long distances over rough terrain- then I'd recommend they pick a heavy duty pack from a specialty maker who caters to hunters. And get the thing fitted correctly.

Some of my best backpacking buddies worked for the Appalacian Mountain Club (AMC), running the huts in NH's White Mtns. ALL of the supplies for those huts are packed in on their backs, 100-150+ pound loads and all with external frame packs.

Because the trails to the huts see so much traffic, there is plenty of room for the external frames w/out getting hung up on branches (which I believe is the only drawback to external frame packs).

In my opinion, if you are mostly hunting open country & need to carry 100+ pound loads, the external frame can't be beat.

Think I agree with Oklahunter on this one. The Kelty frames from years past were hell-for-stout. Even had METAL buckles. You could cinch that puppy down & it wouldn't slip. I bought a new external frame a number of years ago and couldn't keep the belt from slipping. I tried a number of things to no avail. I even looked at a new Kelty pack. Nope! Plastic buckle. My wife finally snagged 2 old Kelty packs at a garge sale. Took the METAL buckle off one of them & then gave them both to my partner for his grand kids.
More & more these days, I see mostly crap being made by companies that think they know what the consumer wants.
Ok, rant off.
Bear in Fairbanks

I've suffered with internals from Dana, MR (ok, CBMR), Osprey, North Face, Kelty, and a few that I'm forgetting. My CMBR crew cab just about crippled me when I tried to pack moose with it.

I still use a TNF internal for day hikes, spring black bear and anything where I'm not going to kill anything too far from the truck or boat.

When sheep hunting, or moose hunting without a vehicle, I've never regretted the ridiculous amount that I spent on a Barney's Pinnacle.

For a dedicated moose pack, my favorite is a 660cc model made by a Japanese company. It's called a Yamaha Grizzly.

Great thread of the same topic:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5157866/Packs_Internal_vs_External

and from this thread, I posted:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5328719/Osprey_Aether_85_vs_REI_XT_85

Modern-day backpacking packs aren't designed to carry big weight. With the ultralight movement, most gear is much lighter than even ten years ago. The new packs are designed with that in mind. The weight of meat hasn't changed, so older non-hunting packs are going to be more and more valuable to hunters in the future. In the 90s, 70-90LBs for long hikes and winter hiking wasn't uncommon. Those packs were made in accordance. Hunting-specific backpacks are priced ludicrously high. It would cause me to seek other options.

I take exception to your last sentance. Last week we had the chance to load 137 lbs in the Kifaru UL 5200, Osprey Crescent 70, KUIU and a couple Mystery Ranch. The Kifaru was heads and shoulders above them all and this opinion was a concensus from people that owned the KUIU, MR's and Osprey.

Nothing wrong with a good external, but I'll take a Kifaru UL over them all.

A Kifaru UL5200's base price is $558. That's a lot of cabbage. Lots of options at that pricepoint.

But nothing that light that will carry over 100 lbs. Plus it is made in the US not Vietnam like most of the mainstream packs.

I have to admit that I wouldn't be one to care about the extra 5LBs (Kifaru UL5200 @ 3LBs for $560 vs Dana Design Terraframe at 8LBs for $200) when talking about carrying 100LBs. And that is just one option I would explore before spending $560+ on a new pack. That was my intention with those final two sentences.

The 5 lbs of weight doesn't matter when packing the 100+ lbs of meat, but matters a lot to me when packing camp in. 5 lbs is two days more food.

I sold, fit and owned Dana Design packs including Astralpane's and Terraplanes. If you think they carry weight better than a Kifaru UL good for you. I don't. Spend your money as you see fit, but until you have actually tried something you might want to refrain from evaluating it's worth.

I didn't make any claims to evaluating Kifaru pack performance. I said, "Hunting-specific backpacks are priced ludicrously high. It would cause me to seek other options." If I can buy three (or even two) comparable packs for the price of one, I'll stand by the "ludicrously high" statement. And that kind of price tag causing someone to seek other options isn't an outlandish thing to say or advise.

I don't know man. You can only use one pack at a time anyways. I would rather have one Kifaru, Mystery Ranch, or Barney's pack for hunting than a closet full of "backpacking packs". Lots of people certainly get by with lesser packs and I have in the past as well. However, the more I backpack and hunt and combined the two, the more I appreciate at will fitting pack that is built for purpose.

When you are spending $1K+ for a spotter, $1K+ to setup your rifle, $500+ for binos, $500+ for a good tent/sleeping bag/pad setup, the extra $300 bones for a quality hunting purpose built pack kinda pales in comparison. Let alone the $$$ of actually getting to some of the hunting locales.

I have had the chance to compare how the Barney's and Kifaru UL haul weight FOR ME as I own both and for me the Barney's wins, but thats not to say that its for everyone and that the Kifaru doesn't work better for others (like Ed T). For me I am usually hunting with my wife and end up packing 70% of the gear going in anyways and still can out pack her, I'm just glad she likes to go and I don't mind as Brad Paisley says "waitin' on a woman", so an extra 5 lbs doesn't matter to much going in for me and keeping the weight down for her is the priority. Now if I am just going by myself....well that KU 5200 might get the nod then if I can sneak it out the door without her seeing.

Ed, how far and how steep up and down did you haul that weight in those packs and what MR's were you using?

How? was the K-UL head and shoulders above them?

That was really poor wording on my part. What I should have said was: "If I can buy a comparable pack for 1/2, or even 1/3, the price, I'll stand by the 'ludicrously high' statement."

As to purpose, those older backpacking packs would work perfectly for a backpacker or a hunter; speaking in hauling capacity, durability, and comfort for more people than not. They're built like tanks and designed for abuse. There are a few people on here who have attested to their fine use for hunting. They aren't just "making them work", but they are preferably working with them. They certainly aren't lesser packs, and at the fraction of the cost, they are a great alternative, and a great resource, for many people.

I'm not discouraging anyone from buying a hunting pack, or from spending money on what they enjoy, but I am hoping to make aware that there are fine, fine options out there. That's all. Also to add: if you spend $200 on a Terraframe, or Terraplane, and find that it needs some personalize modifications, go ahead and do it. You just saved hundreds of dollars by going that route, so have a little fun with some additional designing and futzing.

Sorry didn't realize you were talking about the used backpack market and what not like Dana packs and what not.

Certainly are great packs at great value. That said apples to apples you can get used versions of Mystery Ranch, Kifaru, and Barney's for $300 or so as well.

Packs fit and function are a personal thing, so long as it works for you, hit the hills and cover some miles and chase some critters and if we get lucky haul one back home with us.

I got $300 into my terraplane (new condition), terraframe (new with tags), and alpine (well used). FWIW.

Great information - thank you all.

Even when packing 100+lbs of meat along with gear? I own an Osprey pack and there's no way i'd pack more than 40-50 lbs of meat in it along with my gear.

Yup,

I'd take the Kifaru for anything up to 125-135 which is my limit.

The Osprey Crescent was actually a big surprise. It did better than most of the others. I would say the Crescent would be perfectly suitable for 85 lbs or so.

That Kifaru pack sounds nice but man, $550 for a pack I might use a few times a year is hard to swallow. I know the Crescent is a tad bigger than my Aether 70 but 85lbs?? That's pretty danged good for a non-meathauling designed backpack.

AL, please direct anyone wanting to sell a complete Barney's external frame pack for $300 to me. I promise to return the favor for Mystery Ranch and Kifaru.

I can very much agree with ZM's sentiment. The biggest issue I have with all of those older mainline internals is that they don't have replaceable hipbelts so I can't use my Kifaru hipbelt on them. If that isn't a consideration for you, and price is some consideration, they're well worth the look.

As to the KU -- I know a couple of very experienced guys (Ed T included) who have enough time under them with heavy loads to form an educated opinion and like them. After examining them in person and carrying Patrick's personal KU with 40# in it for a short hike, I can say that I would never buy one myself. Maybe the smaller one for lighter overnights, but there are LOTS of packs that work in that application. Doesn't mean it isn't the bees knees for a lot of folks... just saying that if you're contemplating buying one, don't assume it's going to be a slam dunk.

I've been training w/ a Granite Gear Stratus Flatbed for the last week and a half w/ 2 - 40lb bags of softener salt in it most trips and once a week w/ 3. It fits like a glove, handles the weight & transfers it all to my hips. At 5lb 4oz & for what I got it for I'm happy with my decision. I'd have been happy even if I paid $329 retail for it. That's not to say that it's the best option for everyone. I know Granite Gear packs fit me well. I know Kifaru's fit my buddy well. I know I had enough $ left over for 1000 rounds of XM855 : ).

Sorry to post this again, I guess Ed missed it.


Ed, how far and how steep up and down did you haul that weight in those packs and what MR's were you using?

How? was the K-UL head and shoulders above them?

HAHA...will do. I actually had to buy 2 barney's packs/frame setups on the cheap and sell the one for a good profit to pull it off for that price, but gear trading can be a fun winter time activity as a way to fund my trips as well.

I'm actually looking for one for a buddy. He could probably make do with something else, but I'd rather have him buy once and cry once.

Much as I hate Ebay, it might be the best option for a Dana.