Comparison of Kifaru and Seekoutside tipis - 08/19/11
I'm going to be as clear as possible about what I do and don't know about Kifaru (K) and Seekoutside (S) tipis.
I own a 12 man K that I purchased used with 5 hunting seasons of wear on it this spring. I've since been out with it about a dozen nights in a variety of terrain (WA, UT, CO, OR, ID). I've also spent a few winter nights in borrowed 12 man and 8 man K tipis.
This past weekend, I had the opportunity to examine a prototype S 8-man in detail and also query Kevin and his better half (who does the prototyping) at length about various design and construction details.
Without doubt, there are people who have more experience with K tipis, and there are also people who have more experience with S tipis, but noone seems to have popped up who has seen both in person. Hence this post. Kevin from S hadn't even seen a K tipi in the flesh until this past weekend.
What follows is a compare and contrast of the two makes based on the experience I outline above:
FEATURES / COST This is pretty well documented and easy to see on respective websites. S tipis come with screen doors and sod cloths for less money than comparable K tipis that don't have these features. Both are US made out of US materials.
CUT K tipis have a pretty standard cut with vertical panels starting at the hem and terminating in the cone. This means that every panel ends up cutting across the fabric's natural bias. S tipis have a very sophisticated design that results in a couple of long horizontal seams that follow the fabric's natural bias. It also provides a place to properly anchor a "half pitch". Which of these two designs ends up being stronger? I don't know. They're *very* different. My gut says K's vertical seams are a stronger design, but that's just my gut. Also note that, even if true, "not as strong" could still be "more than strong enough". I also observed that when the two different tipis sag each morning (a normal thing for tipis), the fabric hangs differently due to the two different cuts.
FABRIC The S main body fabric is at least the equal of K main body fabric. K uses hypalon for the cone, S uses dyneema for the cone. I haven't looked at the material properties of both, but specs are available so someone could pretty easily figure out which is a better choice or whether they're equal.
POLE K has an aluminum pole, S has a carbon fiber pole. I have a personal bias against carbon fiber in outdoor gear which isn't necessarily well founded. Kevin asserts that a bent aluminum pole bends for it's entire length, ruining the entire pole whereas CF breaks a single section and that's all you have to replace. CF is certainly lighter than aluminum for a given strength.
STAKE LOOPS K uses edge binding (bias tape) tacked on the front of a single layer of cordura and canopy material. I find this completely unacceptable. The first time I ever borrowed a K tipi, I ripped a stake loop pulling the stake out. The one I purchased had something like 6 of the stake loops ripped out by the previous owner. There are whole threads on the Kifaru forums about "how to remove stakes without ripping your stake loops out". I guess the good news is that bias tape will rip before the canopy and cordura rips out due to the dubious strength of *that* connection. I've observed a virtually new K longhunter pack in 500d with such a tacked connection already ripping the 500d out. Any K tipi that I planned to use I would immediately replace all the stake loops with actual webbing that sandwiched the canopy material and cordura reinforcement and was stitched all the way through. I also prefer a longer loop than K ships with so I can use either wood stakes in a pinch, or the military aluminum stakes that I favor to anchor the pitch in any ground conditions. I use four of these stakes on my 12 man. The S tipi uses actual webbing in a 3/4" width that is sandwiched between two layers of cordura and stitched all the way through. Much more suitable arrangement. I forgot to test if they were long enough to be used with the military stakes, but I could tell they had a bigger opening. On this feature, the bottom line is that I'd use an S right out of the box, but not a K.
ZIPPERS K tipis are designed to channel a steady stream of water right into the interior of the tipi during a rainstorm. You don't really want your wife to figure this out first because she's the one who happens to be sleeping under it. Trust me. Water that is running down the tipi is collected by the top zipper pull and runs right into the tipi. Evidently the official K fix to this problem is for the purchaser to run a bead of silicon around the top of the zipper to create a gutter effect. The proper fix is a zipper garage, like you see on raincoats with exposed zippers. My K 12 man now has these. This is the second thing you have to fix with a K right out of the box before you go use it. S tipis have a zipper flap cover. Certainly effective at keeping water from running in. My big concern was the flap getting continually caught in the zipper. This shouldn't be a problem, as the flap is made out of some kind of bias tape that really can't get caught in a zipper. Also note that K tipis are made with a bigger guage of zipper than S tipis. The natural assumption is that this is stronger. I'm told (secondhand from YKK) that the guage of zipper that S uses is actually stronger than the guage K uses because it has more teeth per inch. I do know that zipper icing and mudding can be a problem with the K zipper and should be a little less of a problem with the smaller teeth of the S zipper.
SHAPE K tipis have a fairly pronounced elongated oval shape for wind resistance. S tipis are much closer to round. Based on the high winds I've been in in the K tipi, I don't think that the elongation is necessary, and if the wind comes around 90 degrees, you're suddenly "slab sided" anyway (K's "slab side" resilience is the basis of my opinion on elongation). I haven't lived in one, but walking around and looking and sitting, it appears that the more round shape of the S gives you more usable space. Jury is really still out on that one though because I'd have to spend enough time in both of the same size to see.
PRODUCTION QUALITY K tipis are made by old Mountainsmith employees mixed with new trainees. S tipis are made by old Marmot employees, current WL Gore contractors, and maybe some new trainees (not sure on that one)? I would expect the average production quality to be pretty equal between the two.
FIELD TESTING K tipis have been around a long time with lots of users in extreme environments. They are a proven quantity. S tipis haven't been around nearly as long, but do have some users with at least a season of field testing in extreme environments. Additionally, S lives at 7000ft in Ridgway CO and leaves prototype tipis pitched out in the yard for months at a time. There is no shortage of observed performance in real world mountain conditions on that front.
I think that sums up my observations. Hope this is valuable for folks trying to decide between the two. Please keep in mind the basis of my experience with the two as you evaluate my comments. Feel free to ask any questions, but I think I've already plumbed the depths of my observations with this post.
I own a 12 man K that I purchased used with 5 hunting seasons of wear on it this spring. I've since been out with it about a dozen nights in a variety of terrain (WA, UT, CO, OR, ID). I've also spent a few winter nights in borrowed 12 man and 8 man K tipis.
This past weekend, I had the opportunity to examine a prototype S 8-man in detail and also query Kevin and his better half (who does the prototyping) at length about various design and construction details.
Without doubt, there are people who have more experience with K tipis, and there are also people who have more experience with S tipis, but noone seems to have popped up who has seen both in person. Hence this post. Kevin from S hadn't even seen a K tipi in the flesh until this past weekend.
What follows is a compare and contrast of the two makes based on the experience I outline above:
FEATURES / COST This is pretty well documented and easy to see on respective websites. S tipis come with screen doors and sod cloths for less money than comparable K tipis that don't have these features. Both are US made out of US materials.
CUT K tipis have a pretty standard cut with vertical panels starting at the hem and terminating in the cone. This means that every panel ends up cutting across the fabric's natural bias. S tipis have a very sophisticated design that results in a couple of long horizontal seams that follow the fabric's natural bias. It also provides a place to properly anchor a "half pitch". Which of these two designs ends up being stronger? I don't know. They're *very* different. My gut says K's vertical seams are a stronger design, but that's just my gut. Also note that, even if true, "not as strong" could still be "more than strong enough". I also observed that when the two different tipis sag each morning (a normal thing for tipis), the fabric hangs differently due to the two different cuts.
FABRIC The S main body fabric is at least the equal of K main body fabric. K uses hypalon for the cone, S uses dyneema for the cone. I haven't looked at the material properties of both, but specs are available so someone could pretty easily figure out which is a better choice or whether they're equal.
POLE K has an aluminum pole, S has a carbon fiber pole. I have a personal bias against carbon fiber in outdoor gear which isn't necessarily well founded. Kevin asserts that a bent aluminum pole bends for it's entire length, ruining the entire pole whereas CF breaks a single section and that's all you have to replace. CF is certainly lighter than aluminum for a given strength.
STAKE LOOPS K uses edge binding (bias tape) tacked on the front of a single layer of cordura and canopy material. I find this completely unacceptable. The first time I ever borrowed a K tipi, I ripped a stake loop pulling the stake out. The one I purchased had something like 6 of the stake loops ripped out by the previous owner. There are whole threads on the Kifaru forums about "how to remove stakes without ripping your stake loops out". I guess the good news is that bias tape will rip before the canopy and cordura rips out due to the dubious strength of *that* connection. I've observed a virtually new K longhunter pack in 500d with such a tacked connection already ripping the 500d out. Any K tipi that I planned to use I would immediately replace all the stake loops with actual webbing that sandwiched the canopy material and cordura reinforcement and was stitched all the way through. I also prefer a longer loop than K ships with so I can use either wood stakes in a pinch, or the military aluminum stakes that I favor to anchor the pitch in any ground conditions. I use four of these stakes on my 12 man. The S tipi uses actual webbing in a 3/4" width that is sandwiched between two layers of cordura and stitched all the way through. Much more suitable arrangement. I forgot to test if they were long enough to be used with the military stakes, but I could tell they had a bigger opening. On this feature, the bottom line is that I'd use an S right out of the box, but not a K.
ZIPPERS K tipis are designed to channel a steady stream of water right into the interior of the tipi during a rainstorm. You don't really want your wife to figure this out first because she's the one who happens to be sleeping under it. Trust me. Water that is running down the tipi is collected by the top zipper pull and runs right into the tipi. Evidently the official K fix to this problem is for the purchaser to run a bead of silicon around the top of the zipper to create a gutter effect. The proper fix is a zipper garage, like you see on raincoats with exposed zippers. My K 12 man now has these. This is the second thing you have to fix with a K right out of the box before you go use it. S tipis have a zipper flap cover. Certainly effective at keeping water from running in. My big concern was the flap getting continually caught in the zipper. This shouldn't be a problem, as the flap is made out of some kind of bias tape that really can't get caught in a zipper. Also note that K tipis are made with a bigger guage of zipper than S tipis. The natural assumption is that this is stronger. I'm told (secondhand from YKK) that the guage of zipper that S uses is actually stronger than the guage K uses because it has more teeth per inch. I do know that zipper icing and mudding can be a problem with the K zipper and should be a little less of a problem with the smaller teeth of the S zipper.
SHAPE K tipis have a fairly pronounced elongated oval shape for wind resistance. S tipis are much closer to round. Based on the high winds I've been in in the K tipi, I don't think that the elongation is necessary, and if the wind comes around 90 degrees, you're suddenly "slab sided" anyway (K's "slab side" resilience is the basis of my opinion on elongation). I haven't lived in one, but walking around and looking and sitting, it appears that the more round shape of the S gives you more usable space. Jury is really still out on that one though because I'd have to spend enough time in both of the same size to see.
PRODUCTION QUALITY K tipis are made by old Mountainsmith employees mixed with new trainees. S tipis are made by old Marmot employees, current WL Gore contractors, and maybe some new trainees (not sure on that one)? I would expect the average production quality to be pretty equal between the two.
FIELD TESTING K tipis have been around a long time with lots of users in extreme environments. They are a proven quantity. S tipis haven't been around nearly as long, but do have some users with at least a season of field testing in extreme environments. Additionally, S lives at 7000ft in Ridgway CO and leaves prototype tipis pitched out in the yard for months at a time. There is no shortage of observed performance in real world mountain conditions on that front.
I think that sums up my observations. Hope this is valuable for folks trying to decide between the two. Please keep in mind the basis of my experience with the two as you evaluate my comments. Feel free to ask any questions, but I think I've already plumbed the depths of my observations with this post.
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