I own a bunch of puffy jackets. Most are pretty thin with the goal of being very small/packable. Yesterday, I hunted in 20-30 degree temps and was cold in the AM after ~ 1.5 hours. My legs/feet were fine, my upper body was cold which is weird for me. Admittedly I underdressed a bit for the occasion. I wore a merino base layer, Kuiu Kenai, and a Kuiu Guide. I discovered the Kenai isn't as warm as I thought. I'm looking at Kuiu Super Down but thought I'd throw it out to you'se guys. Warmest puffy that is packable - it will ride in/on my pack except to sit.

Thanks.

"Warmest" is a big topic, but the Montbell Alpine Light is a good one... https://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=25010&p_id=2301263&gen_cd=1

Duluth Trading Puffin hooded is pretty warm.

Figure out how many oz of down fill yours has, how much warmer you want to be, and go from there. Montbell Alpine Light or Mirage are good warmer puffy's for the $. If money is no object you can get Goosefeet Gear to make you whatever you want.

I wear an Arc'teryx Atom AR and think it's great.

https://www.arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/atom-ar-hoody

Sitka Kelvin Down Hoody... All I hunt in anymore.

Patagonia Fitz Roy jacket or parka

Lots of choices here. One that is extremely warm for the weight is the Rab Neutrino down puffy. 250gr of 800? goose down. Not water proof, but quite water resistant in my experience.Packs down pretty small for the warmth, and lofts right back up when you unpack it. Weighs around 20oz. MSRP is 375$ but you can find them for as little as 225 bucks. Love mine.

First light

Have two...town one and hunt one.

LC

Montbell thermawrap parka is pretty ok
Patagonia DAS for when the wheels fall off.

I don't own any down at the moment - all my puffy's are synthetic. For comparison, I have a Kuiu Kenai, First Lite Uncompaghre, Browning Primaloft. The Browning is the warmest but is quite bulky.

What you guys think of this down puffy:

http://www.ems.com/ems-men%E2%80%99s-feather-pack-hooded-jacket/2031194.html?ab=20161010_featherpack_shop_mens_hooded

On a related note, one of the issues I have is wanting a good outer layer and then have the puffy underneath where it’s protectd from weather, branches, etc.. The issue is having an outer layer large enough to not compress the puffy and keep it from doing its job effectively. Really like my DCS Guide jacket with that one exception. Either get a larger one, wear puffy on outside or look for other solutions.

I solved the issue to a certain extent with purchasing Cabela's Passage Jacket. Primaloft insulation and Windshear protective barrier and a stuff sack.

Good topic

It use to be that western mountaineering was mentioned a lot , did they campaign for hilary or something ?

A vest and down hat work well .

What's the warmest, most packable, puffy pant to go with the puffy jacket?

Been looking at those too..........

First Lite makes Uncompaghre pants, Kuiu super down pants, and few others. I used to have a pair of fleece wader pants that worked well - at least until I 'donated' them in Kansas City.

I love my first lite puffy..

Been pretty happy with my Sitka Kelvin Lite puffy. Little noisy for stand hunting but definitely warm. Hoping it quiets down a little with use.

What temps are you looking for and what are the conditions? Do you want to be able to wear it while moving, or is it for putting on after you hike to a glassing spot where you will be sitting still for hours?

I'm following this even though I don't backpack hunt! I mainly stand hunt for whitetails, but do tend to walk quite a bit in and out.

I typically layer. Merino next to skin, fleece midweight top and bottom, lightweight down top, then a wind proof fleece outer layer top/bottom. I really like the Berber type fleece as an outer layer. I want something as quiet as possible and nothing binding.

I'm anxious to read more of your comments. I like puffy's, but want them to work well with something over them. Hadn't found one quiet enough yet to wear as an outer layer. Still learning...

I have 2 purposes for a warm puffy - one is eastern treestand hunting, mainly in NW PA; temps from 10 to 40. Sitting all day even when its 30 degrees requires more clothes than one would think. The other purpose is mountain hunting in the east and west. In elk season (late October), temps are mostly 10 to 40 but I normally hike in 2-3 miles and climb 500-1500 feet. I need a puffy layer for those 2-3-4 hour stands/glassing sessions. I'm less concerned about the mountain hunting because of the movement involved, a guy can always move around a bit if he gets cold, plus I have a few different puffys to use depending on the temps/activity. Not so with the TS hunting.

As a side note, I've always defaulted to synthetic insulation for the sweat/wet factor. Once down gets wet, its next to useless. But synthetic isn't nearly as warm as down, nor as packable. I posted my question here because the guys here are always up on the latest and what works/doesn't work.

Had all my stuff stolen in October - almost every single thing I own related to hunting, backpacking, camping. I've used this incident as an opportunity to explore new gear. I've found some I really like, some not so much.

Some of the best things I've found:

Crispi boots - now own 3 pairs
Kuiu Peleton 240 hoodie
Kuiu Ultra merino 210 hoodie
Nemo Fillo backpack pillow

Like you, I wear merino wool base layers (Ice Breaker 260 to be exact) but have gone to the Kuiu Ultra merino 210 hoodie as a next layer. This set up is usually all I wear when hiking into treestands or in the mountains even when its fairly cold. I've used alot of fleece of varying thickness and like it alot but it doesn't provide the warmth as some of the synthetics and down. Also like you, I haven't found nirvana yet with a good insulating layer. I bought a FL Uncompaghre puffy and a Kuiu Kenai. The FL is warmer but has a 'plastic' like exterior and rustles a bit too much for my liking. The Kenai is very quiet and breathes but isn't as warm or packable as I'd like. I'll keep both pieces as they have a place. I did buy the EMS down hooded jacket I posted a couple posts back. We'll see how that works.

For an outer layer, I've been using a couple. As a default for TS hunting and especially if precip is in the forecast, I've been wearing a Rivers West Ambush jkt/pants. This isn't for walking around - they are way too warm and bulky for much walking. I also wear Kuiu Guide jkt/pants over base layers if temps are not cold and if I'm walking/hiking. They are a good compromise - not the quietest, not the warmest, but a very good overall compromise. This weekend, I found a good sale and ordered a FL Woodbury jkt and North Branch bibs. I have the FL Sanctuary coat/bibs but it needs to be really cold to wear that outfit. My concern with the FL stuff is longevity. The exterior is very quiet but I'd bet I could wreck it in a day or two of thrashing around in NW PA bear/deer hunting. We'll see how that works out.

Aside from losing my elk season, it has been fun reviewing/buying/trying new gear. I've learned alot from my evaluations and collectively from the 'Fire. Love this place and people. Most of the people any way ................. <G>

I have several, one being the FL version which is pretty good, but when i need real warmth I wear an old Patagonia one with 800 down fill.

I have both a Marmot 900 fill and a Kuiu Super Ultra hooded jacket, both very packable. In real cold which I'm starting to avoid more and more (except for sneaking on coyotes) I wear an outer water- and wind proof shell over these with a fleece gaitor and with a merino base. My trunk, hands and feet rarely give me a problem; it's my head and neck that get cold. But I'm talking -20 WC and below.

Both those items are a bit pricey but what quality isn't anymore. My main, general gripe with some high quality and spendy outer garments are the fine-toothed, plastic zippers some come with.

ETA: my outer shell is not the Ultra "soft-quiet" stuff as I don't bow hunt for whitetails any longer and it is sufficiently quiet for anything else.

Tons of great puffy options if you don't limit yourself to "hunting" brands. I agree it's real tough to beat the Montbell Alpine Light for value.

There is only a couple of puffys mentioned that I or my friends/mates haven't used. With a lot of trial and error almost all of us have come to the same general system/idea. The first is moisture management- we're going to sweat, when we we do we ant to dry out as fast as possible even if sitting still. That means the clothing combination or system must work towards that end. With the right combination of clothes you can go from soaked I sweat to having a completely dry next to skin layer in less than 30 minutes by using your body heat to cook the system dry.
I love merino and hate the way synthetics feel. I started wearing merino base layers within the first year or so of them being available. However after a decade plus of using them heavily, one single digit overcast day two years ago I was done with "warm when wet". Three hours in I was still soaked and nearly hypothermic. Every single person that was wearing merino that day swore that they were done with it. The ones wearing synthetics were completely dry inside of an hour.

Regardless of the region the base system that I use from 60 degrees and below is a silk weight (Patagonia Capaline LvL 1, etc) top as a moisture management layer. It's sole function is to get moisture off of my skin. Over that I wear a light to midweight fleece such as the Arctyrx Fortrez Hoody, Sitka Fanatic, etc. It has to be really cold- sub 20, or really windy for me to wear more than that while I'm moving. If it is really cold than a puffy with Polartec Alpha, windy a wind shirt. Real puffys are for throwing on after stopping to glass, sit, etc. and put it on immediately and a wind shirt or rain too over that, allowing the body heat to "push" the sweat through the layers and away from my skin. From sweated out to dry in single digit temps- 15-20 minutes.

I don't think many suggesting the Kuiu Super Down, FL Uncompahgre, etc. have sat for hours not moving in 10 degree temps. Those puffys are equivalent to a 30-40 degree sleeping bag in insulation at best. The warmest is the Kifaru Lost Park Parka and it is 3.6oz of Climashield Apex which is exactly what their 20 degree sleeping bags use.... The Montball Alpine suggested is a nice puffy but there is no way that it would allow me or anyone I know to sit for hours in 10* temps. At least not without adding a bunch of layers which I hate. I would much rather carry a warmer puffy than carry multiple layers of fleece/merino.


If you are not wanting to wear 2-3 layers of fleece or merino along with a puffy I would suggest you look for jackets with 5oz Climashield or equivalent for synthetics, and 8+ ounces of 800 fill power for down or equivalent. That's a minimum from what I've seen for stationary 10 degree use.


As an aside I have had good service with water treated down using it to cook dry as long as you wear water proof layer or windshirt over it.

Interesting thoughts. Frankly my issue last Friday was exactly that - sweat soaked Merino wool that took too long to dry while 'cooking' under an insulation layer. I like your analogy on base layers 'cooking dry' while stationary. It is spot on. That said, I hate synthetics next to my skin. I may need to revisit synthetics. Thanks for another well thought out post based on experience. I appreciate it.

I get a kick out of all the reccomendations for merino undergarments on this site. You couldn’t give me that junk... I tried it out the first year it became widely about ten years back, then after one season switched right back to Capilene (or its equivalent).

Use patagonia ultralight next to the skin. Washes clean, no odors and can throw away as it's cheap. Ranger hoodie from TAD to keep in the heat and arc'teryx outer layer or US MIL issue goretex to keep dry. F*ck merino.... scratches, stinks, and expensive... not to mention it stays wet. Puffys when wet stay that way.

Found this while doing a bit of research on synthetic vs merino base layers. Interesting.

https://backpackinglight.com/comfort_moisture_transport_wool_synthetic_clothing/

Another good thread cussing/discussing the merits of synthetic vs merino:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/37947/page/2/#comments

My synthetics get used all day, in cold temps with a lot of perspiration. When back to my tent at the end of a hard day, I'll typically put on a down or synthetic jacket (depending) to warm up. It's amazing how fast the capilene will dry out vs. wool. I despise getting into a down bag with wet clothes, and with nylon I'm dry and good to go. Not so with wool. Ditto pants and long undewear bottoms too...

No problem. Something to look at are the synthetic/merino blends. I have been using First Lite's aerowool base layers and they are showing promise. So far dry times are only a couple minutes longer than comparable synthetics but the hand is merino like. Other than durability which remains to be seen, I would look at them if you're dissatisfied with the dry times of pure merino.

Sounds like my being cheap and too broke to replace the Capilene for merino was kinda forward thinking. Just wish the Capilene of today was like that of old. I liked the slicker stuff better.

I've been rethinking my base layers since Form posted. I moved to Ice Breaker 260 about 3-4-5 years ago. When I sweat, they get pretty wet. I think the issue is drying time after I stop or take a stand. They do seem to dry in the arid west but not so in the humid east. I have some thinner hybrid base layer tops I use when I'm just hiking. One by OR is my fav.

I've looked at the FL aerowool and Kuiu Peleton 130 as options. I'm headed for 3-4-5 days of deer hunting in S TN next week. There will be extensive hiking/climbing. I'm going to test a couple lighter synthetics vs Merino to see what I think.

This sidebar has been interesting.

All good stuff to read. I've used merino wool base layers but do find moisture to be an issue, at least for the tops. As a base layer for the bottoms I have no issue with Merino. My current set of Firstlite is worn out and need of replacement anyway. I think I'll try the aerowool and a Capeline and see what works. Not sure I can really compare what I use for the Rockies in October with the gear used for an eastern treestand. I've found nothing that tests cold gear more than sitting perfectly still in a stand on a breezy cold day in the eastern woods. For that my Cabela's wooltimate pants over kuiu ultra down insulation is quite toasty. I've looked at a similar top combination. The wooltimate is really too heavy for a backpack hunt though.

What are the actual complete layering systems folks are packing for 4-5 days in the Rockies in October?

Silk weight/lightweight base layer top and bottom (Capaline, this year Aerowoll)
Light to midweight fleece hoody (Arctyrx Fortrez Hoody)
Outer breathable pant (FL Kanab, Kuhl, etc)
Puffy jacket and pants (Kifaru Lost Park Parka, and Beyond midweight puff pants)
Wind Shirt thatnis water resistant unless heavy rain showers are likely, then a Goretex/etc top and bottom sized to fit over everything
Beanie




The base system really doesn't change. If I will be moving lots in the 30's or less than a puffy with Polartec Alpha is thrown in. The temp determines what weight/fill the puff pants and top are. Multiple layers of fleece, merino, etc don't add up from a warmth and weight ratio versus just getting a warmer puffy.

Thanks.
Thinking about it, I've concluded I don't have layers that compliment each other. I was often wearing a kuhl sweater I have over FL merino and then a Kuiu DCS Guide over that. Very warm, but I don't think the sweater breathes well enough to work with the merino. A better wicking layer, and then an insulation layer that breathes better (Polartec alpha) would likely serve me well. Maybe Sitka Kelvin Active? Then add a puffy (Kifaru or others) for the really cold glassing.

My system will need to include all that's possibly necessary for 4-5 days at 10k elevation in October.

Base layer (top & bottom) - lightweight Capilene
Mid Layer (top & bottom) - Patagonia R.5 fleece
Microtex pants, shirt, jacket as outwear
Patagonia puffball vest
Cheap (free with Nikon scope) insulated jacket
REI One rain jacket for wind/water
Red Ledge rain britches for wind/water

A combination of the above handles most every western hunt I've been on.

There are some things I'd like to upgrade/replace and I think some of the puffy options would be better than the fleece midlayer I use now. For my eastern deer hunting, I'm not having to cover much ground so cheap cold weather gear gets me by.

Feathered Friends.

Most people seem to be about like that. Lots of clothes, usually quality ones, but none of them really work together. As I said I really try to limit how many layers and actual items I carry and wear.

I care nothing about camouflage for hunting (have killed quite a few deer with a bow on the ground in a tie dyed shirt) and usually choose good mountaineering cloths, however for better understanding of how clothing systems can work for you or against you, any podcast with John Barklow of Sitka is worth listening to. As an aside- I don't wear much of it, if any at all, but Sitka's mountain line is about the only hunting company who's clothing is about on the same level as top mountaineering brands like Arctyrx. Sitka is making really good gear these days.

I don't recall if it is Barklow, but one of Sitka's chief designers used to work for Arc 'Teryx, and it shows in the quality of Sitka's clothing -and in the price, also! 😬

The regular Kuiu Super Down doesn’t have a whole lot of down. I think it’s under 3 oz. The Super Down Pro has 5, and I tested it in single digit temps this year. It did well enough.

The synthetics simply won’t beat 800+ fill down for weight and packability to warmth ratio.

I noticed they weren't very substantial after looking at a couple of them. I did notice the Pro series has alot more down. I was looking for 4.5-5.5 oz down in anything I bought. The one I bought is supposed to have 5+oz of 800+ down. We'll see.

Interesting and very informative discussion.

A question about the layering system some people are using. I have some FL pieces and some Kuiu pieces, but as others have stated, I don't think I am using them as a system correctly. I understand the synthetic layer when using body heat to dry out. My question concerns the mid weight. Are you saying fleece, like the Sitka Fanatic, is better than a merino wool layer, like the Kuiu Ultra Merino or the FL llano? If so, what properties does the fleece have that the merino wool does not?

I like my Kuiu Guide Jacket so hopefully I can still use it in my layering system.

thanks

Yes. Synthetics like fleece for the same warmth/weight absorb almost no water, and dry significantly faster than merino due to merinos ability to absorb water into the fibers. Merino absorbs water into the fibers, while the outside does not. That's why if both a synthetic and merino both get a little damp- the merino will feel drier. The problem is that it takes about twice as long to dry a merino versus a synthetic, and merino is not near as good at drying with body heat going from high activity to no activity.

I swore off synthetics a number of years ago (in favor of merino) - mostly due to their becoming rather odoriferous in a hurry.
But I'm back to synthetic layering for the moisture aspect alone reasoning I'd rather be drier in a hurry than a little smelly.

Formidilosus Thanks for the reply and all I can say is "well crap".

I thought that the easy solution for me was to add a synthetic layer (like the patagonia capiklene crew) under my smartwool or other merino wool layer and be good to go. But I see that is not the case.

So would wearing merino over synthetic totally neglect the benefit of the synthetic?

I've just read the entire thread and none of you has mentioned length, size or color. Being a northern guy, I've got a closet full of feather jackets, but chicken feathers come to mind when they start poking through the seams. The truck has a leather seat but before the bun warmer comes on, it is cold and I want a down puffy that is long enough to cover my butt. Normally I'm a 200# large, but those Chinese guys making my jackets are very small larges, so I can be an XL at their place and if they work at the North Face place, then I'm an XXL! Down compresses and I think that I should error on the big side for range of motion and to keep from compressing the insulating layer. Then color... I've got the bright orange mountain climbing parka and pants that goes in the stuff sack, but I can't wear that outside of my deer stand and if someone wears camo in public, people look at them like they are a terrorist. My parka has a hood, but I'd want one to zip off or be non-existent. Is there such a thing as a long down puffy thing out there that can be used in public and as an outer warm layer in a deer stand?

Don’t give up on your merino wool just yet. While it’s true that synthetics don’t absorb water, I’d much rather have merino if I’m going to be wet due to feel. My Patagonia R1 fleece feels wet and cold when it’s wet. My merino doesn’t. While it’s true the merino dries slower, it’s more comfortable to wear. So you have to decide what is best for the situation. If I’m day hunting and mostly hiking, I’d rather have the merino because I’ll be sweating and wet pretty much all day. If I can’t dry my clothes out each night, then the synthetics might get the nod.

The best place for merino is as a second layer. If you don't care about it drying, than it is "warmer when wet" than synthetics and if you have a light synthetic next to skin then it's not bad.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with us sir. They were informative and eye opening (especially about merino wool).

This discussion has been a bit of an epiphany for me. I used synthetics and wool/syn blends for 10-15 years. About 2-3-4 years ago I switch to all merino wool, not just any merino but the thicker versions (Ice Breaker 260 specifically). I've had 'mixed' results and it wasn't until Form posted and I started thinking about the issue that it became clear to me. For eastern TS sitting, the Ice Breaker 260 works excellent - not much walking, therefore no sweat, I stay warm and dry. The issue starts when I get into the hiking and sweating, then sitting that I've noticed the cold issue which is new for me. Thought I was just getting old. Putting the old part aside, my base layers were/are not drying out in the humid east unless I was able to maintain a enough body heat to do so. That's take 2-3 hours at times. Sitting in 20-30 degree temps with a wet base layer is what's making me prematurely cold. The give away is my legs and feet. I didn't develop a soaking sweat on my legs or feet, therefore they stayed warm while my upper body got cold. I knew something wasn't quite right because this is opposite of my entire life experience in cold. I was born and lived in NW PA for 40+ years, so I know cold weather.

Wearing the 260 in the west has kinda worked mostly because of less humidity but I've still gotten cold after a strenuous hike in to sit for a morning or evening.

When I recreational hike, I've noticed the same issue when I wear the Ice Breaker 260. I've worn an Outdoor Research shirt (80/20 syn/merino) that is probably 120-150 weight. It gets soaked hiking but dries fast. It dries in the length of time after I take a break and put on a puffy of some sort. Viola' warm and toasty after a brief sit.

I ordered a FL Aerowool shirt yesterday and dug out my OR lightweight syn/wool shirt. I'm wearing them hunting next week - lots of hiking, still hunting, sitting. We'll see what works.

As an aside, check out the Polar Tech website - they have pretty good descriptions of their products. I'm really curious about their Power Wool product. I'm trying a merino/syn mix first because I really like the feel of Merino against my skin. I'll trade a few extra minutes dry time for comfort - at least for the moment.

I love the Merino/Synthetic blend base layers they sold at Costco a couple years ago. It's something like %10 merino and %90 poly. Light, durable, dried pretty quick,nice weave that lets it breath fairly well, and didn't stink any worse than anything else I wear.

Cheap too. Haven't seen it in the store for a bit though.

ETA -Here it is.

https://costco97.com/paradox-mens-merino-wool-blend-base-layer-top/

Also they have a decent puffy for sitting and glassing. Not a heavy weight, but plenty for what I've used it for. Mainly sitting in temps from the low 20's up until it's too warm to wear.

Spyder Primo, or some such. Down, but not sure on the fill weight. It was about $60.

I'm a cheap bastard and a Costco slut.

ETA - This one, but in blk

https://www.costco.com/Spyder-Men's-Prymo-Down-Jacket.product.100354848.html

bwinters

I'm looking forward to your review on how those products work for you.

Thanks a lot to all of you. I wasn't even in the market but, after reading all this, I ordered myself a Kifaru Lost Park Parka. You people cost me nothing but money!

I received the EMS puffy today. I like it - its the real deal. I had a coupon and with the current sale, it cost me $110 delivered. It has 5 oz of 800 fill. Its a China product but appears solid. I'll be wearing it next week.

I also received a First Lite Woodbury jacket. First impressions: a bit heavy, less insulation than the FL Sanctuary. fit/finish is about what I've come to expect from FL. The exterior shell is very quiet. Still have residual concerns with the 'toughness' of the shell material - likely wear it next week as well.

I've been wearing several Kuiu products that fit this model. The Ultra 210 Merino hoodie is 50-50 merino to poly. I've washed it several times and let it air dry along with my Ice Breaker 260. No contest, it dries much faster than the Ice Breaker. I also purchased a Kuiu Peleton 240 hoodie. Its all synthetic and dries the quickest of the 3 mentioned. My first go-round next week will likely be my OR syn/merino lightweight shirt next to skin, Kuiu Ultra Merino 210 next. This should suffice for the hike in. A puffy and Kuiu Guide jacket be strapped/stuffed into my pack. I'll alternate for a couple of days with the FL Aerowool shirt under the Ultra 210 and see what happens.

I bought a Kifaru Lost Parka recently and quickly returned it. I didn't like the bulkiness and seemed extremely loud to me.

It seemed load? Just had to ask (hence my avatar)

Lol

I'm sure it will be too loud for archery hunting, but it never hurts to have it along during the colder rifle season.

Good timing on the recommendation of John Barklow. Sat down on an airplane to fly across the country and there was a new podcast with him talking about layering. Good stuff. Sitka seems to be heading in the right direction. A fewmyears ago I wasn’t sold on their stuff. I need to look closer now.

So is it actually better to have a synthetic next to skin and then merino as the second layer?

Three scenarios I'm going to try next week. Synthetic base layer next to skin heavier merino over that, syn/wool blend next to skin with syn/wool bend as next layer, Merino base with wool/synthetic blend as next layer.

I'm now in curious/experiment mode 🤓

If there is one kind of equipment that I have too many of it's the puffy jacket. Seriously, I have 2 Badlands Infernos, a First Lite Uncompahgre, a Browning Hell's Canyon Tommy Boy, 2 Cabela's Primaloft jackets, a KUIU Kenai, 2 LL Bean down puffies, A Cabelas packable down jacket, and probably more that I cannot remember. The down jackets are probably the warmest that I have but have their obvious drawbacks. The Badlands Inferno jackets are probably the warmest synthetic jackets to me. The Browning is warm too.

I was looking at the KUIU Superdown, and I am sure it is good but I don't think it would be warm enough for me. I get cold quickly when I am not moving. The Superdown has high quality fill but not a whole lot of it. If you are looking for the ultimate warmth, I think the bulkier (high fill weight) down puffies would be the warmest. I would look at the drab colors from Montbell, Feathered Friends, Marmot, North Face, etc. They won't be cheap but should be very warm.

Actually, I just checked and KUIU sells a Superdown Pro that appears to be heavier (more insulated) than their original Superdown jacket. It probably wouldn't challenge the Feathered Friends jackets for warmth but should be pretty warm for a 1 pound jacket.

Also, this is obvious but I like to wear the insulation under my shell. With down, I think it compresses the insulation and makes it less warm. I imagine wearing it over a soft shell would be warmer than wearing it under.

I got a Kuiu catalog with my last Outdoor Life issue and they have the Super Down Pro listed with 5 ounces of 850 down with a total weight of 13.4 ounces. On the next page is the slate (they call it Phantom) colored Super Down Ultra one that I would buy just for that non-camo color, but it only has 2.3 ounces of the 850 down fill with a total weight of 7.9 ounces. Customer reviews say that people think that it is too fragile and thin.

Fragile and thin is probably based on hunters putting the jacket into circumstances it wasn’t intended for. I recall reading a thread over on Rokslide where some dummazz was pissed because his Sitka Jetstream didn’t keep him dry in a coastal WA/OR rain. Sometimes you can’t fix stupid.

A 7.9 oz down jacket is meant to be a mid layer and not an outer layer. It will not hold up walking through brush. Neither will a Patagonia Ultralight Down or and Arc’teryx Cerium SL or anything else with a low denier fabric.

Kuiu came out with the SD Pro because people were wearing the SD as an outer layer. In addition to a tougher shell they added more down fill. My only complaint is in cold weather when you need the Pro, the fabric gets very noisy. But that’s something they all do to an extent.

Really there’s no free lunch. You either pay the weight penalty with heavier fabric and/or more fill or you accept that your jacket is 1) not going to be all that warm or 2) will be susceptible to punctures.

Absolutely correct. I can not see myself trying to push through the brambles in a rip stop noisy outer layer. Who among us doesn't have a weather/wind proof or fleece quiet walking covering to go over the top of that down filled puffy jacket? Even then mine is in my pack or I would heat up like a portable sauna.

As a mid layer hunting and an outer layer around town lots of us here in the frozen north want a jacket/parka that can do double duty and with a removable hood. For hunting I can't hear very well with a hood on and a hood does not move as well when I turn my head.

bwinters

Any conclusions from your experiment?

Not done yet. I wore the Outdoor Research Sequence for 3 days this week. This thing is paper thin but works great. Temps in the 40-50's, humid (rain/fog every AM), lots of hiking (basically deer scouting), elevation changes 3-500 feet, steep climbs - a good test of the moisture wicking capabilities. The Sequence is good at wicking moisture. It would dry under my jacket in 30-45 minutes. The Kuiu Ultra Merino 210 hoodie is one of my favorite pieces of new clothing but it hangs onto the moisture a long time even though its a 50/50 product. I layered the Ultra 210 over the Sequence for hiking/still hunting. I added a Kuiu Guide jacket when I stood for any length of time.

I did a mini test today when I got home. I washed all the items, including a Patagonia Cap 2 and 3, and let them air dry while I timed till dry. The Kuiu Peleton 240 was the clear winner, followed by the Kuiu Guide pants. The dry times were 45/60 minutes respectively. After 60 minutes, I turned the ceiling fan on to hasten drying. After 90 minutes, the Ultra Merino 210, Duofold bottoms (50-50 hybrid), Smartwool socks were still a bit damp. Body heat would have helped drying. Surprisingly the Patagonia did worse than the Kuiu Peleton and the Peleton is a much thicker material.

For heavy hiking days, I'm leaning strong to all Peleton - 130 next to skin, 200 mid-layer, 240 hoodie as outer. I wore an Ice Breaker 260 top/bottom, Kuiu Ultra Merino 210 hoodie and Kuiu 240 Peleton hooded in the early part of the Tennessee deer season. I wore the Ice Breaker and Ultra 210 for the hike in, cooled down abit, then added the 240 Peleton to sit. Temps were in the 40-50 and windy. I was comfortable all day.

I'm leaning strong to a lightweight synthetic next to skin, followed by a synthetic or merino/syn blend for all situations except for short hikes into my whitetail treestand hunts. Then it will be Ice Breaker 260 all the way. I love the Ice Breaker wool - if I don't sweat much.

I'm working on my legs now. I'm thinking a heavier synthetic or synthetic/wool blend. I don't sweat much on my legs unless I'm absolutely drenched in my upper torso. I checked out Cabelas ECWS yesterday on my way by and left kind of feeling so-so about it. It uses PolarTec Power Dry so should wick well.

Did you have a chance to evaluate the aerowool. FL has the Minaret aerowool crew in asat camo on sale right now and I'm really tempted to try it out. The other option for a base layer is the Patagonia Capilene midweight crew. What's your opinion?

Thanks

That is interesting that the Patagonia Cap. baselayers had longer drying times for you than the thicker layers from other makers. I've been using capilene for years and have had good luck, but have not experimented with other brands of baselayers, other than the Ice Breaker merino-I sweat so much that the merino was a disaster for me.

bwinters,

how good or bad is the Peloton managing corporal odor? I mean if it will stench at the first sweat.

thank you

I just rec'd the Aeorwool yesterday. I plan to try it next week. The Patagonia arrived while I was out hunting. I washed it for the first time on Wednesday. I plan to give it a whirl next week. I'll try all these base layers over the winter as well - I do alot of hiking in the Smokies during Jan, Feb, March. We generally do day hikes 14-17 miles with a few 20+ mile days thrown in for good measure. I've learned alot from these hiking forays. I fine tuned my boot selection over the past couple years as a result.

340 - I wouldn't read too much into the drying times yet - it was only my attempt at a crude experiment. The acid test will be how well they work under actual field conditions. If people are interested, I'll report what I find. I've spent way too much on clothing this fall. Probably have a sale on slightly used stuff this spring 😎

The only Peleton piece I currently own is the 240 hoodie. I've been wearing it fairly regular since November. I've yet to notice an odor. The next Kuiu sale, I'll buy a 130 and a 200 and plan to wear them together. Been listening/reading a bunch on base layers over the past 2-3 weeks. My theory is to have a substantial 'system' to remove perspiration. Thinking a Peleton 130 or equivalent and a heavier synthetic base layer over to do the perspiration removal system. I also have a few puffys to evaluate to see how they deal with perspiration. We'll see over the winter how his all pans out.

Your experiences in trying different combinations is very interesting. Thank you for sharing them.

Thank you for your contributions, bwinters.

Please keep us tuned.

I would be interested in the results of your 'field trials', for certain. ANYTHING that will help me stay even a little bit drier in cold conditions is worth knowing about.

Following with interest.

I had to give up synthetic base layers because they drove me crazy itching. Merino has never had the same effect. I realize its potential to hold moisture but for me, that is a much better down side than the cutaneous manifestations.

I will say, my casual wear Marmot 800 down jacket is way warmer than any of my synthetic downs (FL, Sitka).

+1 thanks bwinters this is good stuff.

Peloton 240 is a good piece of clothing for some applications but it doesn’t make a very good outer layer. For some reason, it gets snags really easy. Can’t walk through the brush with it on.

Cabels's has some to cheek out.


Just something to look at.

Hey, Merry Christmas!

I've spent way too much time looking at base layers and puffy's.......................

I've also been trying to understand warmth/heat measurements, specifically 'clo' units. I estimated the clo numbers for all these puffy's The RAB Neutrino and Sitka Kelvin Down Hoody have insane clo numbers and should be good for north pole hunting <G>

Puffy Jkts – Down

RAB Neutrino Endurance jkt: 22.4 oz, 8.8 oz (250 gram) 800 down, $375
Sitka Kelvin Down hoodie: 27.2 oz, 8.1 oz down, $272
Kuiu Super Down Pro hooded: 13.4 oz, 5 oz, 850+ goose down, $399
EMS Feather Pack hooded: 15.5 oz, 5 oz 800 down 90/10, $110
Montbell Alpine Light: 12.3 oz, 4.2 oz 800 down, $209
Kuiu Super Down Ultra hooded: 7.9 oz, 2.3 oz 850+ down, $290

Puffy Jkts – Synthetic

Sitka Kelvin jkt: 24.8 oz, 170 gms Primaloft Sport, $269
Browning Mid-Weight: 133 gms (body), 100 gms (arms) Primaloft
ArcTerex Atom AR: 16 oz, 120 gms Coreloft 120, 80 gms Coreloft 80, 60 gms Coreloft 60, $299
First Lite Uncompaghre: 17 oz, 100 gms (body) 60 gms (sleeves/hood), $250
Mountain SuperConductor: 24 oz, 100 gms ThermalQ, $150
Outdoor Research Ascender: 11.7 oz, 95 gms Polartec Alpha, $199
Kuiu Kenai hooded: 13.4 oz, 90 gms (body), 60 gms (arms) Toray 3DeFX, $180
Sitka Kelvin Lite hoody: 16.9 oz, 80 gms Primaloft, $249
Sitka Celsius jkt: 32.8 oz, 80 gms Primaloft Silver, $199
Sitka Fanatic Hoody: 16.8 oz, $189
EMS Impact Hybrid: 80 gms Primaloft Gold, $90
EMS Primapack: 14.8 oz, 80 gms Primaloft Gold, $104
Mountain Hardwear Atherm: 17 oz, 80 gms Polartec Alpha, $285
First Lite Cirrus: 13.5 oz, 60 gms 37.5 Cocano insulation, $200
ArcTerex Atom LT: 12.7 oz, 60 gms Coreloft 60, $259
Outdoor Research Cathode: 13.4 oz, 60 gms Primaloft Gold, $199
Mountain Hardwear Thermostatic: 11.6 oz, 60 gms Thermal Q Elite, $200
ArcTerex Atom SL: 9.2 oz, 40 gms Compact 40, $229

I have several of these, notably the Browning midweight puffy. It is really warm but doesn't have a hood. Also, take a look at the EMS Feather Pack - I bought one on sale a few weeks back. It is the real deal. What I don't know about it is how well it conveys sweat. Most of the hoodies listed have some type of moisture conveyance system.

If the clo thing interests you, here is a table I found. A couple of salient points. First, the best synthetic is Primaloft Gold (unless something newer is out), note it falls in about equal to 600-650 down. Most of the other Primaloft equates to 550 down. Second, I'd not due a down less than 800 over a good Primaloft puffy. The 550 might be lightweight but lacks anything if it gets wet.

Type of Insulation CLO-value (clo/oz/yd2)
550 fill Down 0.7
650 fill Down 1.0
800+ fill Down 1.68
Climashield APEX 0.82
Coreloft by Arctyrex 140 grams/sq m clo = 4.01, noted to be 5% less than Primaloft One
Down-Tek (Water resistant Down) Similar to Down
DriDown: 600-fill down by Sierra Designs Similar to Down
Exceloft by Mont-bell 0.68
Marmot Thermal R Eco 0.8
Polarguard by Invista 0.488
Primaloft Eco Dry: 0.68(0.020 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.60 (0.017 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Eco Footwear Dry: 0.250 m2 C/W/IN (0.100 m2 C/W/CM)
Wet: 0.115 m2 C/W/IN (0.046 m2 C/W/CM)
Primaloft Infinity Dry: 0.57 (0.017 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.47 (0.014 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft One Dry: 0.92 (0.027 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.90 (0.026 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Sport Dry: 0.79 (0.023 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.72 (0.021 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Synergy Dry: 0.73 (0.022 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.61 (0.018 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Black 0.65
Primaloft Silver 0.79
Primaloft Gold 0.92
Thermolite Dry: 2.9 CLO/cm
Wet:1.55 CLO/cm
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 100 0.419
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 150 0.413
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 200 0.403
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 40 0.538
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 70 0.455

Naw, keep up the good work!

Thanks for starting a thread with so much good information in it, and in particular your contributions to it!

I'm going to save this entire thread to my my hard disk!

John (in cold northern Sweden!)

Wow, bwinters, nice summary.
FFIW, I've used my Neutrino in pretty cold conditions( -20F) and it has been very impressive. For synthetic, "dead birds" * Coreloft has been outstanding.

2 cents and all..




*Arc Teryx

Why is Primaloft Gold the best synthetic? How does it compare to Polartec Alpha?

Can't find a clo rating for Polartec Alpha but several internet testing sources have said Primaloft Gold is the warmest synthetic insulation material. To me, when you get into the higher clo numbers, it's not going to matter much. I'm seeing high quality puffys made from Primaloft Gold - Rab, Outdoor Research, and Patagonia have puffys made with PG.

I get the sense Polartech Alpha is really more about moisture management that outright warmth. No basis for that, I could be way off.

Correct. Alpha was meant for highly breathable garments. Personally, I've only had one jacket that uses Alpha-a Rab Strata, but it seemed to work as advertised, and I am one that sweats heavily during exercise...lucky me. 😃😃

That is correct. It is an active insulation layer meant to be worn while moving, to wick sweat and dry extremely quickly.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/CABELAS-GOOSE-DOWN-PACKABLE-SUPER-WARM-DOWN-JKT/2257804.uts

I have one of these and really like it!

This thread is really making me rethink things and will cost me money. I FROZE on my dad's Nevada elk hunt this year. Lots of wilderness so lots of early morning hikes to get up high. Once there I was soaked and froze my ass off. Was wearing a Kuiu merino as a base layer and felt cold and wet on my torso. Alternated between a Kuiu Kenai or a Marmot down jacket. Hiked it wearing Kuiu Attack pants (love these) and once glassing threw on Kuiu down pants.

Tag

Ive been super pleased with my Kifaru Lost Park Parka, down to 10*, not including wind chill.

I’m thinking of the following: (based on hunt in Rockies at 10k’ in October)
Top
*Capalene base
Sitka Kelvin Active
Kifaru Lost Park
*Rain jacket

Maybe include a merino top as an option for a day hanging around camp or less active day.

Bottom
*First lite merino
*Prana Zion
*Kuiu super down
*Rain pants maybe

Sweat when climbing is an issue so I need to manage that first, then deal with staying warm while glassing.

*Already have

You’ve got good gear. It sounds as if you just need to adjust what you wear for the hike in to avoid overheating and sweating out your under layers. It’s always tough for me to strip down enough when I start to hike in cold weather. But I know that after I get well started especially when carrying a load or climbing that I won’t need much more than wind protection to stay warm even in very cold conditions. So I force myself to ditch the insulation beyond base layers and wind protection. A heavy hat and gloves goes over a light hat and gloves. It’s uncomfortable to start. After 10-15 minutes of hiking I usually ditch the heavy hat and gloves. If I start to sweat I vent the outer layer. As soon as I stop to glass I get out the puffy jacket and overpants and layer back up before I chill. It keeps me dry so sitting isn’t miserable.

First off, Thank you Biwinters and all who contribute to this thread. It has been a big help to hear everyone's experience with their gear.

It is Flintlock season now. The high temp in the mountains here yesterday was 10 degrees above. I tracked deer all day wearing only a mountain hardwear butterman as a first layer and micro puff half zip top as a second with a capilene light weight pant as a base with an R-one pant as a second layer. Knit hat, light gloves and Meindl boots. That is it. Perfect for the day, as no sweat and not cold.

I didn't carry a pack, just the rifle. I knew I would be hiking all day. I had a fleece pullover left in the truck.

It seems to be a natural instinct to wear too much at the beginning of the trek. You have to underdress to start and layer up if you find yourself still cold after walking for awhile.

If one were to be stopping to glass or take a stand you would have needed all you had to stay warm. That is wear this thread is valuable. Keeping away from sweat by walking"light" but having the puffys and other insulation layers in the pack to add as needed.

Stand hunting and stalk/track hunting are so different that they need two strategies. But even short walks to your stand can bring up a sweat if overdressed. One tip is to drive to your hunting destination with the heat on low or off in the truck so you can adjust to the outside temp knowing that you exertion while getting to your stand will kick up the body heat.

The bottom line is never sweat in the first place and if you do, have the layering system that enables your body to push out that moisture through to the outside layers.

This thread is a big help in figuring out what those layers are for you.

Thanks for making me focus more on tweaking my approach to layering.

Diesel, I agree with most everything you said except "never sweat in the first place." Sometimes it's just not possible to avoid sweating so as others have pointed out, you need layers that your body heat can dry out. These come in handy not only when you sweat but also when you get rained on. And they really come in handy when you can get into your sleeping bag wet, and come out dry.

Just to add one personal experience I hunted a few weeks ago in Pennsylvania for whitetails. Temps in the upper 20s and a mild breeze. Started out with wool base layers, kuiu kenai as a mid layer and first lite puffy as my outer layer. While I really love the first lite for most of the hunting I do I was getting pretty cold alternating between sitting for an hour at a time and really slow still hunting in beteeen sits. Late morning I walked back to my truck and swapped the first lite for my Kifaru lost park parka and was truly surprised how much warmer it was. Felt 50% warmed at least. I really like both, the first lite is more packable and quieter and the kifaru is warmer and I like the marsupial pocket and the ability to buckle a pack through it and still keep my hands warm. Both great just different depending on your needs.

I've been using First Lite Aerowool mineret all week. It doesn't stink and dries fairly quick - I like it. I'm probably going to go with Kuiu Peleton 200 over a synthetic base layer for my western hunting. I'm finding if I'm not dry within an hour of stopping I get cold. The Aerowool under the Kuiu Ultra Merino 210 works but am finding the ultra Merino 210 holds moisture too long when sweating. It 'cooks' dry too slow as FormD says.

Is the Peleton 200 and/or 240 similar to a Sitka Kelvin Active?

I have the Sitka Kelvin jacket and the Kelvin Lite Hoody. Yesterday I went pheasant hunting and the air temp was 17 degrees BELOW zero. I left the Kelvin Jacket at home as it would have been way too hot. I had on 3 layers; a synthetic short sleeve tshirt, a Sitka Core midweight long sleeve and the Kelvin Lite hoody. I was as close to perfect as you can get. Never got cold even a little bit.

I didnt read this entire thread so forgive me if I repeat something someone said! Sitka Kelvin is just plain awesome. I dont wear wool anymore because of it. Sitka's Incinerator Series might be even better! Make sure you dont have stuff too tight. Wear a neck gaiter. Dunno about the other brands, but Sitka has me convinced that Primaloft is a definite advancement in cold weather clothing.

I wish KUIU, Sitka, etc. offered their outerwear in blaze orange. I'm not a camo guy and hate having to carry around and wear a separate orange vest to meet state minimum requirements.

So what is the difference between Primaloft and the polartech material? I can only find Primaloft in outerwear and polartech material in base layers. Surely there is more than that??

Primaloft and polartec are insulation. Garment manufacturers choose them based on ...well who knows what they are based on, but suffice it to say, they are used in different garments. Based on the things I have with Primaloft, I have become a big fan.

Do you have any base layer garments made of Primaloft?

Thanks

I don't own the Sitka Kelvin Active but using google Fu they look like 2 different products. The Sitka product is a Primaloft insulated jacket using Polartec Alpha. My understanding of Polartec Alpha is a insulation that has a primary function of removing moisture/breathable. It is used for active sessions. The Kuiu Peleton series are more of a base layer garment made of 100% synthetic material, a Toray polyester material. It appears the Sitka product is a light insulating layer; the Kuiu a sweat management with a bit of insulting value. My purpose is moisture managment next to, and one layer out, from the skin.

I agree with Berettaman on the differences between the two - as I understand it. It seems the Polartec product is more of an active insulation that is very breathable. As to the pure insulating qualities, I can't find anything on the Polartec Alpha with respect to measured insulating value ("R" value). I'd suspect its in the same ballpark as the better Primaloft products.

I do not - yet. I spent the past couple days deer hunting from a treestand. It was 16 degrees this AM. I wore a First Lite Mineret, Kuiu Ultra Merino 210 hoodie, and EMS Feather Pack into the stand (1/2 to 3/4 mile walk). I put a First Lite Woodbury over that. I had on 2 thin base layer on my legs and a pair of FL North Branch Bibs. My legs were a bit cool after about 2.5 hours. I'm looking at Primaloft insulated mid layer puffy pants now. Cabelas, Patagonia, and LL Bean all make one, as does the military. I'll own one of them before next deer season.

That said I do own a First Lite Santuary jacket and bib. The issue is that they are way too hot if you need to hike any distance. I'm hunting in the mountains of eastern and southern Tennessee (Cumberlands) and they are too hot for that purpose. I'm looking to add a mid layer Primaloft mid layer pant with the FL North Branch bibs. I should be set after that.

Also heard a couple things from First Lite. 'Rumor' has it they will be adding a hood to the North Branch jacket. A jacket with no hood is fairly useless in my book. I wear a hood alot, mostly for wind control when its warmer, to keep warm when its cooler. They may also be dreaming up a puffy pair of pants like I'm looking at. I'll own both if they actually do that............

Am i correct in this simplified assessment? Polartech (with its moisture management) is a better base layer. Primaloft (with its insulation management) is a better second layer. And if that is true, patagonia capilene base layers would be a good choice?

I'm not an expert by any stretch but that's the direction I'm leaning. Going hiking tomorrow with the wife in the Smokys. I'm going to wear the Patagonia Cap 3 as a base layer and a fleece mid layer. Likely throw a light puffy in my pack - expect to to be cool up on top.

Gonna make another conclusion.

Merino wool is better as a base layer when walking a short distance and do not expect to sweat.

Synthetic is better as a base layer when one expects to sweat. And as Form pointed out, a fleece mid layer is a good choice to help your body dry out.

Thoughts on this??

I wouldn’t agree. Wool works very well to move a lot of moisture if you are active and has a reduces stink factor when used over several days. Good wool is warmer than synthetics. Wool feels and acts “dry” for longer than synthetics while being able to absorb and move moisture. But if there is nowhere for moisture to move it will damp out. So if you are in a high humidity environment or bury the base layer under heavy insulation it will damp out and stay damp. There are a lot of experienced mountain hunters on this forum that have moved to wool for base layers and swear by it.

I agree with you. I still believe Merino will keep you warmer when its wet than synthetics - but my experience over the past couple hunting seasons indicates if you arrive at your stand dry or have a thin synthetic that 'cooks' dry in short order, you'll stay warmer longer on stand than wearing a merino next to your skin and having it stay damp for a long time. The reason I'm looking into a dual base layer system is to keep all moisture significantly away from my skin. I tested that theory this fall with wearing a synthetic next to the skin and a thicker merino as a mid layer. If you sweat enough to get the merino damp, its seems like the same effect as having it next to your skin - you chill easier and quicker.

So, I'm waiting for Kuiu to have another sale to fully test the theory - Peleton 130 (thin, moisture wicking synthetic) next to skin, Peleton 200 next (thicker synthetic with moisture wicking properties), followed by fleece/merino sweater (Ice Breaker 320). Depending on temps, I'll hike in with that set up. I'll wear a Kuiu Guide jacket when I cool down a bit and still hunt or take a stand. I'll have a down or Primaloft puffy in my pack for extended sits. I think that system works for about 60-70% of my hunting in the east and west. For my eastern TS hunting, probably go with the same base layer setup and insulation layers. The outer layers will change according to the temps - everything from a Kuiu Peleton 240 to First Lite Sanctuary as an outer layer.

I guess the short version is - I'm switching back to synthetics next to my skin except for situations where I can remain sweat free. I still love merino next to my skin but don't like how long it takes to dry.

A big thanks goes to Form D for prompting and providing thoughts on this. It wasn't until I started paying attention to why I was getting cold over the past couple years and Form's thoughts that I connected the dots. I didn't have this problem when I wore synthetic or synthetic/merino blends under fleece. It wasn't until I switched to all merino that I started having issues. Interestingly I caught a Youtube by Jason Hairston explaining why Kuiu brought out the Peleton line. It seems the Kuiu crew was hunting (New Zealand?) and all the guides wore synthetics next to skin because merino stayed damp too long. My experience matches those statements/thoughts.

No. The Peloton stuff is a base layer or fleece depending on the product. A closer comparison to the Sitka Active would be the Kuiu Kenai.

Polartec is a brand that makes a ton of different fabrics from outer layers all the way down. Primaloft is makes different products too but 99% of the time it is used by clothing manufacturers as a lightweight, lofty insulation material, which means it is in mid and outer layers.

Another quick question for you bwinters.

And before I ask it, I want to thank you for your time in answering and responding to my comments.

When you are referring to patagonia capilene, you sometimes use a number behind it. Do those numbers indicate how much insulation in that particular piece?

Patagonia recently changed it's nomenclature. It used to be Capilene 1, 2, 3 with lightest weight with the lowest number. Now they go by Daily, Lightweight, Midweight, Thermal weight. Those correspond to Capilene 1, 2, 3, 4. I have the Cap 1 and 2 I wear hiking. Gonna evaluate using them.for hunting purposes.

I'm no expert on all this - others are likely reading this going "duh", but I've never been accused of being the brightest bulb - just passing on what I'm finding. I also really like the contributions others have made. 12 pages and no pissing matches or name calling yet!

I am curious what others experience with base layers in mountain hunting scenarios. Please post!

Not really a gear head anymore, but this puffy has 50 reviews and 5 stars, and that's hard to pull off for a hunting puffy/parka.

Kifaru Lost Park Parka

Good thread. In my experience, I have found Merino works well as a base layer, but only if it is very light. I prefer nothing heavier than a 150 weight in Merino when used as a base layer. I have lots of heavier Merino and it works well as mid-layers.
I have used primarily Merino as base layers for the past 15 or so years, but recently have gone back to synthetic, using the Sitka Gear Core Lightweight Hoody.

https://www.sitkagear.com/products/big-game-subalpine/next-to-skin/core-light-weight-hoody

It does a great job of moisture transfer and with the hood, I can get by most times with just a ball cap for head insulation.
The Sitka can overheat me if my mid layer is too much.

Recently I have been using the Patagonia NanoAir Light Hoody as my primary wind/mid layer. It is a great piece, I only wish it were a full-zip for greater ventilation. In early fall, I did overheat some in it.
This past weekend, I sewed a zipper into the hood of my NanoAir Hoody, so that I can zip on my wolf fur ruff. I now have what I believe to be the ultimate winter garment.
A fur ruff is amazing in very cold temperatures. At -10 the other day, I zipped the hood all the way up and my nose felt like it instantly went from Fairbanks to Honolulu.
I can layer a light fleece or synthetic vest or jacket under the NanoAir, as well as layer over it with a big puffy or W/B shell. Having the ruff on my wind/mid layer is working out much better than having it only on a shell or big puffy.

I'll post up some photos of the NanoAir with ruff.
As far as a puffy, I still use a Mont-Bell Thermowrap parka a lot. Thoughl not "puffy" in looks due to the insulation it works well in most conditions.
A Feathered Friends Helios parks that is over 20 years old, gets the call when it is vey cold and I want down. A 30+ year old Black Ice down parks is overkill for nearly anything north of the Antarctic, but has functioned as a great ice fishing parka.

Another thing to consider for a "puffy" is something like the HPG Serape or Thermarest Honcho Poncho. I have used the former quite a lot and currently use the later.
The longer length makes them great to pull on for long glassing sessions and both can be used as a quilt. I have used the Honcho Poncho as extra quilt in cold conditions and even used it as both my insulation and sleeping quilt both in the summer and on winter trips to Forest Service cabins that are wood heated.

https://hillpeoplegear.com/Products/CategoryID/4/ProductID/19

https://www.thermarest.com/catalog/product/view/id/16680/category/111/

Polartech is generally a moisture wicking base layer of some sort- think fleece. Primaloft is generally a synthetic version of goose down for insulation- think puffy coat.





After a couple years of testing, trying, learning, and exercising clothing systems and measuring how how quickly they wet out, fast they dry, how warm, etc. I'm having a hard time finding anywhere for pure merino in a performance clothing system- and this is from someone that HATED synthetics beforehand. For wear around town, general clothing I still like merino, and for super arid conditions it has some benefits, but for general mountain hunting, backpacking, etc. synthetics just perform better. The merino/synthetic blends look to be a very good option as well. The Firstlite Areowool is doing really well and while merinos dry times are about double synthetics- maybe a bit more, the Aerowool is about 10-15% longer than pure synthetic. It also maintains the good qualities of merino with regards to feel and lack of stink.








That's exactly what I would have, and did say, as well.... right up until we started measuring it. It's pretty hard to convince anyone how good merino is at "warm when wet" when you're 3 hours in a spotting session and absolutely freezing because your still wet, yet your partners are warm as can be and dry in synthetics.









I've got right at 60 days of wear this year with the Lost Park as my sole puffy. I really like Anoraks so prefer what is usually the biggest complaint (lack of full length zipper). I've used it from 11k feet while snowing in below zero temps, to 60 degrees and raining, and everything in between. The first thing to say is everywhere you read people will Ben saying how it's a "furnace" and ridiculously warm. It's a matter of perspective, as it has to be the first puffy of people that claim it's so warm. It's made with 3.6oz Climashield Apex- that Ian exactly the same as Kifaru's 20 degree sleeping bags. Due to reduced body coverage, airflow, etc. that means it's about a 30 degree jacket which is exactly where it's fallen for me so far.
With a lightweight base layer, and light to mid weight fleece am fine the Lost Park I'm good to around 30-35 degrees stationary. With moderate movement I've been fine to below zero.

None of that should be taken admin a slight in the jacket- it's actually the first puffy I pick for most things. Just wanted to give some reality to most of the reviews that you'll see.

Been trying to find someone who had used one. Any thoughts on whether it would be adequate for glassing at 10k if over a capalene base and a Sitka Kelvin Active? Possibly a rain jacket over it all as a wind blocker. From what you wrote above I’m thinking another layer may be a consideration. I do have a Kuiu super down puffy I could add

It's all on the temperature and the person, but with a base layer, the Kelvin Active and the LPP, I'm good to around 10-15 degrees stationary for long periods. That's actually a really versatile system.

Perfect, thanks

Great thread, thanks to Bwinters for the effort (sweat effort).

Looking forward to a similar thread on bottoms (pants), when this one is done.

And then socks!

I've been using the Cap 1 and 2 exclusively for years now. I find that a R1 Hoody works better for me, over a Cap1or2.The Cap3&4 have been languishing in my closet for years.

For socks, I've settled on Smartwool liners (50% Merino, 50% poly) with Smartwool extra heavy cushion socks. I'm looking more for the cushion aspect than warmth. That system seems to work good for me but my feet don't sweat much unless I'm really exerting myself as in carrying out an animal or hiking when it's fairly warm.

What do others use?

I use a tip from form and wear Injinji toes socks for liners. They make synthetics and wool blends. And Smartwool or Darn Tough on top.

Works for me.

As far as base layers, I stay away from anything more than "lightweight" for hunting in the mountains. And it's not just the "weight" but also the weave of the fabric and how open it is. Heavier fabric and/or tighter weaves don't move sweat as well and some of the stuff I've worn is just too warm for climbing. You can always put another layer on but you can't do anything about a base layer that's too warm. I prefer the zip necks over crew necks because they're a little more versatile and warmer when you zip them up.

We go over this stuff in our hunter ed. classes and bring in different layers for the students to see. For base layers to be used for hunting in the mountains we tell them to hold up the fabric to the light and if you can't see through the weave it's going to be too heavy for anything other than being stationary.

Great video demonstrating the differences between synthetic and merino. I think I'll be moving towards synthetic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHFBMT_pR9Y&t=0s

This has been the most informative and least acrimonious thread I have read in along time, thanks all.

I grew up wearing wool in the mountains and gratefully switched to synthetics in the late 1970s. If you regularly spend cold times where you can make a fire wool works better. If you want to dry out from body heat syns rule.

Injini sox are magic.


mike r

I use a thin sock such as Cabela’s Thermax under a wigwam merino wool sock.

I dunno, I kind of like having holes in my clothes, makes for better ventilation.

Those Injini Hikers look awesome. At least the materials appear to be designed for moisture management which is what I need.

Spent the day yesterday hiking in the Smokys on the North Carolina side. Only did about 12.5 miles but included a 1700 foot climb over 1.5 miles and a shorter 700 foot climb over a bit less than 1 mile. Not a big hiking day for us but we did it at an average of 3 mph, only stopped twice for water and snack. Temp was 26 when we started and never got above freezing until the end of the day when we came down; probably reached mid 30's. I wore Patagonia 2/midweight next the my skin and a 200 wt, 1/4 zip fleece most of the day. I did throw on a light puffy twice for a bit when we ran into some wind on the shady side of the mountain.

I still like Patagonia next to the skin. Merino feels better but the Patagonia dries much quicker and doesn't leave me feeling clammy. I did notice I never felt sweat running down my back. I also noticed my GPS face had water condensation on the screen from riding next to my fleece, presumably from water vapor moving through the capalene and fleece. I've worn this setup alot when the temps are in the 20'-30's during winter hiking and it plain works. I've used a very similar setup before I discovered merino. Going back to synthetic next to skin with a second synthetic layer over the thin next-to-skin base layer.

I've noticed something I missed in past years when I wore synthetics next to the skin - I stay cleaner at the end of the day. When we arrived home, I didn't have that sticky feeling when I peeled off my clothes. If I was hunting/backpacking I wouldn't have taken/needed a shower. I noticed the same thing earlier this week and last week when I was deer hunting after wearing the First Lite Aerowool. In fact I wore the exact same FL Aerowool for 3 straight days this week to see how it handled moisture and odor. I did bath after wearing it for 2 days - no smell, no sticky feeling. I've ordered a second FL Aeorowool Minneret shirt as a next-to-skin base layer for hunting. They dry quick, don't stink, and feel like merino next to my skin. They have a winner.

On FL clothing, I also wore the North Branch bib all week hunting. Those pants work as advertised. It was cold in the AM all 3 days I hunted (16-20 degrees). I wore 2 base layers under the bibs. I noticed I never sweated, got warm - yes, sweated - no. My cell phone was in the outer thigh pocket and it was fogged over several times, presumably due to water vapor escaping the pants. I'm going to like the North Branch bibs. FL really needs to put a hood on the NB jacket................ I do hear thats coming in 2018, I'm hoping its unveiled next week at DSC.

Next-to-skin layers that work well in moving moisture away from skin:

First Lite Aerowool Minneret
Outdoor Research Sequence
Patagonia Cap 1 (Daily)/ Cap 2 (Midweight)

I've never owned the Cap 3 or 4 - why do they sit in your closet? I'm chewing on buying one of each and trying them out for winter hiking - which are much like the temps and terrain of alot of my elk hunting minus the altitude. My thought is a Cap 1 or 2 next to skin, Cap 3/4 over to wear during early AM hikes to my destinations. Arrive then put on whatever clothing the temps call for. I've been doing this for years - its only after I tried thick merino next to my skin (260 wt) that the cold/clammy feeling stayed with me for way too long.

B,
I found the Cap 3&4 too warm to make a good base laser for me. The "breathability" especially wasn't nearly as good as the 1&2. In fact, my experience has been that a Cap1 in combination with an R1 is warmer, with better moisture management than any other system I have tried. It is also more versatile- if I overheat I can simply shed the R1.

Interesting. I'm looking at/evaluating a lightweight next-to-skin base layer with a heavier layer over. The second layer is to provide more moisture management and warmth. Fleece type garments have always worked well for me in the second layer department. In fact, I have a whole assortment of different layer fleeces for the purpose. I'm looking at more technical clothing as the second layer, the R1 looking like a good candidate. I don't want too much insulation but 'some' depending on the temp and wind conditions.

I'm looking at these as a second layer:

Kuiu Peleton 200
Outdoor Research Starfire hoodie
Outdoor Research Radiant Lt
Outdoor Research Transition hoodie
Outdoor Research Radiant Lt Hybrid
Polartec 300 wt fleece
Sitka Core Heavyweight hoody
Sitka Fanatic hoody

I'm leaning toward the Kuiu Peleton 200. The R1 looks really interesting and in the same genre.

Opinions on these choices for a moisture management/warmth second layer?

Maybe a bit more than what you’re looking for, but I’m going to try the Sitka Kelvin Active as the next layer above a capalene base.

I think I have the 'thin base layer - active insulation' thing covered with the Kuiu Kenai and various next-to-skin base layers. I'm not sold on the concept yet mainly because I tried this earlier in the year and didn't have enough 'warmth' with just the Kenai, base layer, and Kuiu Guide jacket at 35 degrees. I'm waffling between a thin base layer - thinish second layer with an insulating puffy in my pack and a thin base layer with a more substantial second layer and puffy in the pack. I'm leaning toward the latter. I seem to do alot of 2-3 mile hike ins, then stand around for 2-3 hours with temps in the teens to 20's. I also do alot of still hunting in those same temps. They seem to require slightly different setups to be comfortable for the day - I very seldom go back to camp during mid-day. What I take in is what I have for the day.

Good info. The wind is a big killer for me/us and makes what normally works seem like not enough. Amy thoughts on the wind shell? Also, when younger gloves were a second thought. Now can't keep the hands warm, let alone gloves you can shoot in.

As for wind - depends on what I'm doing. If I'm active, I can live with a really breathable layer - it helps moisture/temperature control, but you will need some type of wind break or insulating layer if/when you stop for any length of time. Thats my issue with straight fleece as a mid layer - its offers no wind protection unless you get a fleece jacket designed as such. Then it tends to be too warm for the mid layer application.

I generally default to some type of wind control on my outer shell. I do a really simple test - I stick my hand under the garment and blow on it. I determine its wind fighting capabilities depending on how much I feel on my hand. It works for me. I just about always have my outer layer as pretty dang wind resistant. Wind sucks, especially when its cold out. I've never been as cold as when its cold, windy, and humid. A trifecta of miserableness.

Gloves - people laugh at me......... I'm not a glove/mitten wearer. I wear Glacier Gloves. These:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Glacier-Glove-Premium-Fleece-Fingerless-Hunting-RealTree-Kenai-Glove-Medium/332489173573?epid=1101997173&hash=item4d69e62a45:g:rvoAAOSw9mpaNLyZ

I use handwarmers in my pockets. I wore these earlier this week when temps were 16 degrees. Didn't need the handwarmers this week because I was plenty warm.

Man, wish my hands would stay warm that easy. I guess they were when I was younger.

If I am not hunting from a tent, or bivouac, the first two to four hours of my (mountain) hunt will always be climbing, and climbing means sweating. Always, regardless how cold it is, I will always sweat if I am hiking long enough and steep enough.

In this conditions I will only wear a sinthetic top, either a Sitka Core Lightweight Crew or a Midweight Zip-T, depending on temperatures. For me, sintetics wick moisture out better than wool and dries faster. If it is raining or snowing I wear Sitka´s Stormfront jacket with the armpit zips open and will walk more gently, trying to produce less steam.

When I pass the tree line and start glassing, and/or when I start hunting the tops, I always change it to wear a dry Kuiu Ultra 145 Merino with or without a cashmere jersey over it, depending on how cold it is. In dry weather I will hang the used sintetic from a loop in my back pack and it will dry quickly. Otherwise it goes inside the pack and dry it when I get back to the cabin, or put it inside my sleeping bag to dry during the night if I am sleeping in the mountain. I always carry a spare sintetic but use the same one merino during the hunt.

Over my Ultra Merino and cashmere I use KUIU`s Super Down as an insultation layer, either the Ultra or the Pro, depending on how much insutation I think I will need, and either Sitka's Jetstream soft shell plus their Stormfront jackets, if I only expect the occassional rain or snow, or KUIU's Yukon Jacket if I expect it to be humid althroughout the hunt.

This is what works for me.

Good video. And a good argument for synthetics and a good puffy.

Thinking about this a bit - it would have been nice if they jumped into the water with their full gear on, then walked it dry. I'll likely try this test this winter, all except the jumping in the cold water part. I'll soak it then put it on........

I liked the video as well. It would really be interesting if the two guys switched and jumped in again. Was it just their personal physiology or the materials? I suspect the materials, but that would have nailed that door shut!

i used to use merinos as a base layer but have gravitated back to synthetics. I still find merinos get itchy by the end of the day and they seem to dry slower as well which now makes sense after reading this and watching that video.

I do a fair amount of pheasant hunting in temps from +40 to -10 with occasional hunts as low as -24. On monday, I finished the year on a -8 degree hunt. Wicking is sooo important as you will sweat pounding cattails.

Don't try that right now, at least not out east. You'll be a block of ice! Great time to be testing warm gear...

I just picked up a First Lite Aerowool 1/4" shirt to try this week on my Arizona OTC mule deer hunt. Going to run that with a Kuiu Peloton 240 and along with a Kifaru parka I just got to try.

I'd like to know the difference in insulation and moisture wicking properties between a Sitka Kelvin Active and Kuiu Peloton 240. Seems as though they'd fill a similar role. The Sitka has DWR which is nice when serving as an outer layer. Anyone who has tried both I'd like your thoughts. (Edit2: I already asked this earlier...short memory)

Edit: maybe the Kuiu Chinook is is a better comparison to the Kelvin Active? So many good choices...

I think Sitka Kelvin Active = Kuiu Kenai rather than the Peleton 240. I have both the Kenai and Peleton 240 - they are different animals.

STS - you'll like the Aerowool. I'd like to hear your thoughts when you get back.

bwinters, what are your thoughts of the Peleton 240 over a capelene base (or Aerowool) and then a Guide DCS over that? I'm really trying to determine the benefits of the Peleton 240 vs. the Chinook jacket. I have a DCS Guide jacket already. What I need is a layer over the base to wear when climbing on cool/cold mornings. It must move moisture. On Kuiu's site they state the Chinook is "our most breathable soft shell jacket" and that appeals to me.
If it got cold, or I stopped to glass, the Kifaru Lost Park would go on top.

I really like the 240 and have worn it over a FL Minnerett Aerowool. If your moving that combo is good down to ~ 40-45 degrees. Add the Guide DCS over the Minerett and 240 and you could be good down to 20-25 if your moving. I'm looking at that exact combo, likely buy a Peleton 200, and adding a puffy for all my mid-late October elk hunting.

I still hunted the first AM of the TN gun season this year with a Outdoor Research Sequence next-to-skin and a Kuiu Ultra Merino 210 hoody. Temps were 40 or so with a pretty good breeze. It was plenty. I took a stand at lunch and again the last 2-3 hours before dark. I slipped the 240 on over both while on stand and was good.

I sent my Chinook back after wearing the 240............

I 'think' I have my mid layer narrowed down to the Patagonia R1 hoody and the Kuiu Peleton 200 hoody. I'll likely buy both - I do alot of hiking in the Smokys so it won't be overkill.

Great, thanks. Anything specific about the Chinook you didn’t like? Was it more insulated?

I'm not bwinters, but I have a good collection of Kuiu stuff and can tell you I have no idea what the Chinook jacket was invented for. Absolutely useless when taken in context with a complete layering system. Maybe bowhunters would like it, I don't know. Certainly, as a matter of usefulness or lack thereof, it should not be their most expensive soft-shell. All in all, I'd put money elsewhere.

The 240 is a good piece of gear, except it doesn't hold up to snagging on brush very well. If you buy one, you'll know what I mean pretty quick. Wear it doing day chores around the house and you'll look down and say WTH are all these snags from?

I'd look at the Peloton 200, which is a totally different weave. Or just a solid fleece from North Face, Patagonia, etc for around $100.

Kuiu, like any other company, makes some good stuff and makes some dogs. I'd rate their zip-off bottom base layers and the Guide pants as "can't live without" products. I also really like the Teton/Kenai insulated jackets. Super Down, Super Down Pro, and Guide jacket are middle of the road. They are good, but don't exceed the competitors in any way. Chinook is pretty useless. 240 is a good idea, but they gotta fix the snag issue or its pretty much useless for hunting.

bwinters, maybe you mentioned it but I missed it. What do you think of the Kuiu 130 vs the Capeline and the aerowool?

It wasn't insulated at all. It seemed like a lightweight soft shell without a hood. A jacket w/o a hood isn't much good to me..................

Spot on with the 240 and snags. I snagged mine within the first 10 minutes of wearing it. Nothing major but a snag nonetheless. I'm looking into the Kuiu Peleton 200 hoody.

I haven't bought the 130 yet. To be honest, I really, really like the Aerowool - all the comfort of merino, very close to the drying capability of pure synthetic. I'd like to buy a 130 and try it. Its on my to-do list this winter.

Interesting. So, the 240 snags and has no DWR. That may not be right for me. Although it sounds like a nice piece for hiking when I'm not going through brush or out in the rain. The Chinook, if no real insulation doesn't seem to fit in either. Back to eyeing a Kelvin Active.

Edit:
Used as a layer over base when hiking and doing some slow hunting in thick timber. Temps could be 15-40s. What I think I want is:
1) Moisture management
2) Some insulation
3) Wind resistance
4) Minor water resistance (think snow falling/melting off trees, light snow, very light or quick rain..)
5) Durable for hiking in Rockies (lots of deadfalls, branches, willows)

Need to consider Kenai jacket as well.

I could like the Kelvin Active.

Unlike most here, wool itches the crap out me, and intended to switch back to synthetics before this thread for that reason alone. By the end of the day my skin is crawling in the wool. Think I will play it safe and go pure synthetic. Bases I will try are the Capilene light (2) and Kuiu Peleton 130. Mid layer with be R1 or 200 like you.

Sitka Kelvin Active or similer with Polartec Alpha, and a wind shirt when it's windy.

I own both the Kelvin Active and the KUIU Kenai and they look quite different to me. The Kenai has more loft, and is warmer and stretchier. It has pit-zips and does not pack as small as the Kelvin Active. For me, it is more suitable for colder temperatures, probably too warm while hiking except in the coldest conditions, and more the sort of jacket I use when I stop to glass.

The Kelvin Active feels lighter and not so warm.

Good info. I've never had the Kelvin Active in my hand.

So decided to stop in to REI to check out a Patogonia R1 and see what all the fuss is about. Ten minutes later I walked out with one! What a great piece. First of all, I really appreciate that they make them in grown man sizes. This skinny clothes trend has been driving me nuts. Heavens forbid if a guy is tall and actually works out, pass the 3XL usually. Well a XL fit PERFECTLY. I'm 6'4" 220 lbs and it actually has long enough sleeves, fits great throughout the body, and is long enough on the torso. I can't remember the last time I found something with a great fit. It is very soft and comfortable. Wore it around town today with just a T shirt on. We are experiences a really bad winter cyclone storm here in Vegas and it was a chilly 64 degrees. I was plenty warm, in fact was getting hot quick. Will wear this in AZ next week and alternate it with the Peloton 240. The R1 also looks great, not overly granola and doesn't scream hunting shirt either.

You can hold a Kelvin Active up to a light and see through them pretty easy. Light doesn’t have to be all that bright either.

I picked one up after hunting season, so I haven’t had a chance to try it out. But I’m guessing it won’t much warmer than a mid weight fleece. Certainly doesn’t have the level of insulation that Primaloft or down jacket has.

I’m anxious to see what it will do, but I’m betting I won’t quit carrying a Kenai or down jacket.

Sweet! I think you are going to like it in cooler weather, for sure.

Definetely, the Kelvin Active is a second base layer and not an insulation layer. Nothing to do with KUIU`s Kenai or Super Down Ultra jackets. It cannot even be considered a mid weight fleece. Just my two cents.

I have just bought Sitka's Fanatic Hoody http://www.sitkagear.eu/products/solids/next-to-skin/fanatic-hoody to use as a second base layer over their Core Lightweight Crew and can't wait to use it! I believe this, or their Core Midweght Zip-T and a Peloton 200 or a R1 over it for colder temperatures, may be the optimate first layer system.

Very interesting thread. Thank you to all contributing, specially to bwinters.

Full geekdom on display....................

I added base layers to my puffy information and a couple heavy insulated pieces. I'm re-designing/evaluating all my hunting clothing. I'm mostly just tweaking at this point but have discovered I really like the First Lite products - alot. I also wasn't aware Patagonia made so many good pieces - I'm gonna need to sell my truck and buy a Prius next <G>

I still like Kuiu but I've never cared for the fit of the Guide jkt. I have a large but when I layer under it, it gets tight in the chest and arms in a hurry. I'm certainly not Arnold. I tried an XL and all it did was look like a dress on me. I bought a pair of FL North Branch bibs this fall and really grown to like them. If FL would add a hood to their North Branch jkt, I'd make the switch. Rumor has it, its going to be introduced in the next few days. We'll see.

I have this on a spreadsheet if anyone is interested.


Base Layer - tops Weight (oz) Price Material
Sitka Core Lightweight Crew 5.32 $69.00
Sitka Core Lightweight Hoody 7 $119.00
Sitka Core Midweight Zip T 9.46 $89.00
Sitka Ascent shirt 4.7 $169.00
Kuiu Peleton 97 Zip T $95.00
Kuiu Peleton 97 hoody 5 $100.00
Kuiu Peleton 130 Crew 6.2 $60.00
Patagonia Daily Crew 5.5 $39.00
Patagonia Lightweight Zip 4 $59.00
Patagonia Midweight Zip 7.5 $69.00 4.4 oz Polartec Grid
Patagonia Thermal Zip 6.2 $99.00 3.8 oz Polartec Grid
Patagonia Thermal Zip w/ hood 7.7 $119.00 3.8 oz Polartec Grid
First Lite Minnerett Aerowool 7.2 $80.00
First Lite Wilkin half zip Aerowool $115.00
Outdoor Research Sequence 7.2 $60.00


Base Layer - bottoms Weight (oz) Price
Sitka Core Lightweight bottoms 4.27 $69.00
Sitka Core Midweight bottoms 8.85 $99.00
Kuiu Peleton 130 Zip bottom 5.8 $70.00
Kuiu Peleton 200 Zip bottom 7.5 $80.00
Outdoor Research Sequence bottom 5.9 $60.00
Pataogonia Lightweight bottoms 3.4 $49.00 2.3 oz Polyesther
Patagonia Midweight bottoms 6.8 $59.00 5.2 oz Polartec Grid
Patagonia Thermal weight bottoms 4.7 $89.00 3.8 oz Polartec Grid


Mid Layer - tops Weight (oz) Price
Sitka Core Heavyweight hoody 13.13 $149.00
Sitka Traverse Zip T 14.4 $149.00
Sitka Traverse Cold weather hoody 27.17 $199.00
Sitka Kelvin Lite hoody 16.9 $249.00
Sitka Kelvin Active Jkt 13.7 $289.00
Patagonia R1 11.9 $129.00
Patagonia R1 hoody 12.85 $159.00
Patagonia R2 14.3 $169.00
Patagonia R3 hoody 18 $199.00
Kuiu Peleton 200 Zip T 9.3 $90.00
Kuiu Peleton 200 hoody 11.3 $100.00
Kuiu Peleton 240 full zip 12.4 $140.00
Kuiu Peleton 240 hoody 15 $150.00
First Lite Halstead Fleece 13 $125.00


Mid Layer - bottoms Weight (oz) Price
Patagonia R1 bottom 12 $119.00
Patagonia CrossTrek bottom 9.3 $99.00
Patagonia Thermal weight bottom 4.7 $89.00
Patagonia midweight bottoms 6.8 $59.00
Outdoor Research Radiant bottom 13.3 $80.00


Insulating Layer - tops Weight (oz) Price Insulation (gms/m2)
Kuiu Active Insulated jkt 11.4 $130.00 90
Kuiu Snapo Shirt 8.3 $130.00 40
Kuiu Teton Insulated jkt 11.7 $130.00 90
Kuiu Kenai jkt 13.4 $180.00 90/60
Kuiu Kenai hooded 15.8 $200.00 90/60
Sitka Kelvin Lite hoody 16.9 $249.00 80
Sitka Kelvin Active hoody 13.7 $289.00 80
Sitka Kelvin 24.8 $269.00 170
First Lite Cirrus 13.5 $200.00 60
First Lite Uncompaghre 17 $250.00 100/60


Insulating Layer - bottoms Weight (oz) Price Insulation (gms/m2)
First Lite Uncompaghre pants 18 $225.00 100
Cabela Stand Hunter pants $130.00 100
Patagonia Nano Puff 11.7 $179.00 60
LL Bean Insulated Long Underwear $99.00 60



Outer Layer - top shell Weight (oz) Price
Sitka Flash Pullover 7.8 $229.00
Sitka Mountain Jacket 12.4 $269.00
Sitka Jetstream Jacket 25.43 $329.00
Kuiu Chinook jkt 18.7 $210.00
Kuiu Guide DCS 24 $220.00
First Lite North Branch jkt $275.00



Outer Layer - bottom shell Weight (oz) Price Density (gm/m2)
Sitka Ascent pants 12 $189.00
Sitka Mountain pants 27.5 $199.00
Sitka Timberline pants 35.3 $229.00
Kuiu Guide pant 19.5 $170.00 274
Kuiu Tiburon pant 12.5 $140.00 149
Kuiu Alpine pant 17 $160.00 210
Kuiu Attack [ants 18.5 $140.00 225
Kuiu Chinook pant 17.5 $220.00 215
First Lite Obsidian pant 22 $190.00
First Lite Corrugate pants 17 $170.00
First Lite North Branch bibs 33.5 $325.00


Outer Layer - Top Insulated Weight (oz) Price Density (gm/m2)
First Lite Woodbury jkt 55 $325.00 120/60
First Lite Sanctuary jkt 55 $400.00 200/160
Sitka Incinerator jkt 44 $600.00 162



Outer Layer - Bottom Insulated Weight (oz) Price Density (gm/m2)
First Lite Sanctuary bibs 60 $345.00 100
Sitka Incinerator bibs 47.2 $500.00 192

People actually pay those prices? I couldn't afford to hunt and shop there......

Don, I ordered one of them "lost parkas." If it's not as good as you say, I'm gonna load a few rifles in my truck, drive out there, and shoot up all your steel.

As a guy who has been working on my western hunting wardrobe, and experimenting with laying at home since we have the weather to need it right now, this thread has been very helpful and useful. Thanks to all those who have contributed.

Right before Christmas, Midway / First Lite had their annual clearance sale going on and I picked up their Stormtight pants and Seak jacket…I have since ordered a few more pieces, including some Aerowool stuff to try out.

A few other posts brought up a similar concern that developed for me.

Besides rain, I also bought the Seak jacket as a wind block shell. When I tried it on, it fit well in the chest and midsection, but the sleeves were surprisingly tight. Not sure how much “layering” I am going to be able to do with this jacket. This made me worry that I may have made a mistake in my purchase and wondered if I should have just saved and bought the Sitka Stormfront instead.

Over Christmas we drove from AL to ID and I got to stop at a few places and tried on a couple of different pieces at Cabela’s and Sportsman’s Warehouse. I got to try on several different Sitka tops and NONE of them fit me. Of all the outer layer pieces I tried on, ALL were really tight in the arms, in the forearms specifically. I was wearing a t-shirt and a light fleece when I was trying all of these on and most of them would actually pull my fleece sleeves up because the jacket sleeves were so tight.

In the words of Randy Newberg, “I drive a desk for a living.” I am not a muscle head but I am not a chicken wing nerd either. 6’4” with a little extra around the midsection. I usually wear 2XL and usually have no issues with room in the sleeves—as long as they are long enough! What gives with the tapered arms though? My only guess is they are trying to taper for bowhunters but this seems a bit extreme. Any thoughts or suggestions?

The arms are my issue with the DCS Guide jacket. I'm not popeye but it is difficult to layer under. Body is fine but the arms are relatively thin. I've tried layering the Kuiu Super Down under it (with a Patagonia silk weight capilene layer) and it is compressed. I also tried layering the Super Down under a Mountain Hardware wind stopper jacket and it worked better as a result of not being compressed at all. In fact, it worked so well I'm looking for something like that Mtn Hardware jacket but with a hoodie. The hoodie of the Guide jacket was nice vs. beanie with Mtn Hardware. Temps are 10deg and very windy.

bwinters,

That is a great list. Could you share it in spreadsheet form? PM sent

I had exactly the same problems with the Guide Jacket plus it was really tight in the armpits, making me sweat, and feeling itchy. It is funny what you mention, bwinters, since I bought a larger size and "all it did was look like a dress on me". Sitka's Jetstream has been perfect, with my right size being totally comfortable in the chest, armpits and forearms, and allowing for a Kenai or a Superdown Ultra hhody underneath without compressing it.

I have not found the same problem with KUIU Yukon jacket, though, and it is my go-to outer shell in humid weather, saving the room in the pack of carrying an extra layer in the form of raingear.

I've seen little discussion here on the stink aspect of synthetics, Capilene in particular, only that merino wool manages odor better. Whats the experience of those who have worn it.

I've worn Patagonia capilene dayhiking in the Smokies for a few years. I detect no odor after 1 day which isn't much of a test. I did wear the same shirt 2 days in a row this year to test - still no odor. I also wore the First Lite Minerett Aerowool for 3 straight days in colder temps a few weeks back. I had a few sweaty days in that shirt - no odor at all after 3 days. I'm hoping someone chimes in with 3+ days of capilene wear. I can vouch for multiple day wear on FL Minerett and Outdoor Research Sequence base layers. No odor after 3 days of use.

Kuiu is having a sale, started today, on alot of base layer clothes in gray and brown. I ordered a Peleton 200 hoody, Peleton 130 crew, and Peleton 200 zip off bottoms. Be trying those both out later this month - we have a couple of big hikes to do. Probably won't get to the multiple day thing till spring when we have a couple of backpack trips in the works.

Great thread that has me re-evaluating my gear as well. Question: Would a thin next to skin Merino t-shirt under a synthetic be a viable option to manage the funk and still dry out sufficiently quickly, compared to all out synthetics? Wondering if the over merino layer could help draw the moisture out.

I took a hike at lunch today. Just a couple miles around the mountain I live on. It was 14deg, windy, and sunny. Had a base layer of Patagonia silk weight capilene, Prana Zion pants, Salomon Quest boots, Kuiu Yukon Pro Gloves, polartech beanie and a ~45-50lb pack (Kifaru Reckoning). Started by adding a Kuhl Interceptor fleece. Not bad. Retained a little moisture, arms were a little cold. Probably not the best for me due to lack of moisture management, but not terrible. Swapped the Kuhl fleece out for a Guide DCS jacket. I was surprised, my arms were now very cold. The relatively tight fit of the sleeves and the apparent lack of insulating properties of that jacket didn't work well at all. I did like the hood. I've never been much of a hoody user, but I may rethink that. Keeping the wind off the neck was nice. I could just use a gaiter. Lastly, I switched to Mountain Hardware wind stopper jacket. It's pretty old so I don't know what a comparable model is today. Anyway, of the three it was by far the best. Putting it on was instant warmth, but I never got clammy or overly sweaty. It has pit zips but they were closed. That jacket, with a hood would be perfect. It also fits so that my kuiu super down fits well underneath for when stopped, or just around camp. Only drawbacks are it is not water resistant and it's black. I don't need camo, but black is probably not preferred. Just a nice earth tone would be fine. Edit: The gloves. Not sure I understand the design. They are relatively thick in the palms, but very thin on the back. The back of my hands felt almost numb from cold, especially side facing into wind, while the palm side was toasty. Weird.

My plan for the base layer is to have 2. Probably the capilene and maybe an aerowool. They are so light and small its not much of a penalty to carry an extra and then I can simply rinse one in a creek and hang in tent during the day. Maybe have to do that once over a 5 day hunt.

I'm hoping others will chime in. I'm finding in the east, Merino wool takes a long time to dry, thin or not. I'd suggest try it out - take it for a hike or workout, get sweaty and see how long it takes to dry and more importantly how it feels. I get cold with sweaty Merino next to my skin because it takes a while to dry out. I'd be curious what you find. All of this makes for good data points.

prm - interesting observations. I've found the Kuiu Guide to be pretty warm in most situations. I'm wondering how well the MH jacket breathes. Some of those type garments feel really good at first because they don't breathe well and basically trap alot of moist heat. I'd be curious how the layering worked after being sweaty and sitting still for a couple hours.

On the 2 base layers - that's my plan as well. I've been trying out that system all fall and really like it. Picked up a 200 Peleton hoody today and am anxious to try it out on a couple of hikes.

Thanks for the report.

I picked a 200 Peleton hoody as well. And a Teton Rain jacket. I'm disappointed with the Guide jacket. If temps are warmer it's fine. But the "athletic cut" for an outer layer seems ridiculous. If the sleeves were just bigger around I could make it work real well.

I thought the MH jacket would not breathe well, but it was not an issue. It was noticeably better than my Kuhl wool fleece. It also has the pit zips to help ventilate. This hike wasn't long enough to really test out the moisture management though.

I didn't try my Teton jacket on the first hike, but after trying it on when I got back I took it out for a short loop. It is a large vice the medium Guide jacket. The best part is the arms aren't snug. It felt better than the Guide jacket for this short trip. What it really does better is fit over the super down jacket. That's a nice warm combination.

I bought a pair of Kuiu Expedition gloves for my hunt in MT, and had high hopes they would keep my hands warm, they were a waste of $$ and I'm sorry I bought them, granted temps were down to -10 but ended up using my Cabela's wool thinsulate that were less than half the cost and worked twice as good!

bwinters,

I probably have as much Patagonia/Marmot/North Face clothing in my closet as Sitka/Kuiu/First Lite.

Great stuff!!!

I don’t find that any gloves keep me warm at that temp. Mitts only for single digits and below.

I realize that those temps were a tough test but the cheaper wool gloves did really well....never tried the mitts but will now!

One jacket I get a lot of use out of in particular is the Patagonia Nano Puff.

On paper or in the store it doesn’t look real special, but they are pretty much windproof and surprisingly warm. Also, the fabric is quiet enough for still hunting with a rifle. One of them is almost always in my pack.

I find the First Lite Uncomphagre so magical that I own 3 of them.

Interesting. I found it to be completely worthless. Not warm at all.

That’s crazy; I have one of their vests and it’s warmer than down models I’ve had and far more packable. I love it.

Yep, they're that good...

Stay away from the first Lite puffy if warmth is your goal... favorite jacket I own for fit/features and probably the best hood on the market, but it is far from warm compared to my Eddie Bauer pack jacket that goes everywhere with me and is beat to sh@t.

I kinda don't look at the First Lite Uncomphagre as a "real puffy". Let me say that it is definitely NOT the "warmest puffy". For me, I want the warmest AND least bulky "puffy" that has a particular fit. It is its confluence of features that distinguishes it to me.

I look at it more as windshell with an excellent cut (hood and archer's sleeves) that happens to have some UL insulation in the correct places. It is so thin and trim, I could wear a puffy over it. The body is also cut extremely generously to fit vests underneath but it is still not too bulky.

The Uncomphagre seems to be warm in complete disproportion to its bulk (lack of). That's where its "magic" is to me.

FWIW

Well said

Anyone used an Arc'teryx Atom LT Hoody?

Seems to have what I'm looking for. Quick drying insulation, breathes well, though perhaps not as well as polartec alpha (so they say), DWR, wind resistant.

Edit: or the North Face Ventrix Jacket

I've used the LT as well as the warmer Atom SV(since replaced by the Atom AR) for many years. Warm, light, fairly breathable( the LT). Other than the price, no complaints.

Thanks 340. My impression is I would trade a little breathability for a little more warmth and wind protection if comparing the Atom LT to the Sitka Kelvin Active.

How about a Mountain Hardwear ATherm hoody? Polartec Alpha, 50D wind resistant face with DWR.

Couldn’t agree more. I wear the Uncomphagre as my walking around jacket all winter in Minnesota. With just a t-shirt under it, it’s good down into the 20’s. Moisture management is also fabulous. For the weight and size, it’s a fantastic piece of gear. Has anyone tried the pants yet?

I'm interested in opinions on the pants as well.

Also wondering on the sizing. According to the size charts, I'm dead smack in the medium size range. The medium North Branch pants were huge. I'm in a small. I ordered a small Obsidian and can barely buckle them. I'm apparently going with a medium in the Obsidian.

I'm curious what size you are? I just ordered some medium Northbranch pants. I had a size small pair of Kanabs and they were way too tight. I couldn't button them. I'm 5'9" about 155lbs and 31" waist. I'm wanting a little room under the north branch pants for layering.

5ft 8" 165 lbs, 32" waist. I could wear the small Obsidian but they were a bit tight in the waist and legs.

Well, the medium Northbranch pants came in today. You’re right, they’re huge. I put them on over my jeans and they are probably 4 inches too big in the waste. Looks like I’ll be exchanging them.

I agree. Not the warmest, but a good part of a layering system, easy to pack, and warm enough for me when hiking and stopping to glass in combination with a vest or additional jacket from the pack (dependant on the weather).

A small will fit perfect. As a result of my North Branch adventure, I bought small Obsidian pants. Mistake. Mediums in Obsidian fit good.

While I had doubts that the Uncomphagre was going to be "the furnace" that most claim, as soon as I got it in hand I knew that there wasn't anyway for it to be that warm. After using it, it's not. It's about like a 40* sleeping bag. Puffys are almost like scopes it seems- people don't really know what they should be expecting and looking for, and therefor they all seem great. I think it's a decent piece, but the problem for me with the Uncomphagre is that it's warmth doesn't match its weight.


Not trying to dog on anyone's favorite kit, but trying to bring some realism to those who might be reading this and thinking some of these puffys are going to be like wearing a sleeping bag and finding out that they aren't what you wear for "real" cold.

I think a lot of it has to do with what a person is looking for. I got the Lost Park Anorak and for my purposes it's about as warm as I want. I do most of my backpack hunting in the early seasons so I really don't need "the warmest puffy," just one that's light, durable, and warm for it's weight.

I like my patagonia nano and OR jackets better than my umcompahgre, which is too bulky and warmth to weight ratio not so great.Decent jacket but by no means a great jacket

Form - lets break down 'warmest puffy' into 3 categories - I'd like your thoughts. I'm personally more interested in synthetic but down is allowed to play. Lets define 'lightweight' as anything less than 24oz.

Outright warmth, weight not really a consideration
Warmest with consideration for lightweight
Warmest breathable lightweight

Thanks.

Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. Has anyone tried the KUIU Teton insulated jacket?

I've been avoiding this thread for days, for fear of being accused of some trait of femininity or another that I'm probably not even familiar with. Warmest puffy. Well, there it is, I said it. I don't feel good about it either. I don't feel a surge of testosterone when i say it so I'm leaving now.

Received the Kuiu Peloton 130 Crew top, Peloton 200 zip off bottoms, and Peloton 200 zip hoody.

Peloton 130 crew - don't like this material against my skin. Tried it on, had it on for 5 seconds, put it right back in the bag. Sending it back Monday.

Peloton 200 zipoffs - I like the weight of these. Think they'll be a good second/midlayer when its cold. I'm not sure how the zipper thing works if you have pants on. Somehow you'll have to take off your pants to get the midlayer on/off. I'll need to investigate a bit. They are also shorter to accommodate boots and the 'easy' on/off thing. I'll likely keep these as a mid-layer.

Peloton 200 1/4 Zip Hoody - I'm a bit neutral on this piece. It is very, very soft, weighs next to nothing - which leads me to what its real purpose is. Maybe it will add warmth and move perspiration (my goals) but it is light. It has the potential to be the best thing since sliced bread, or another nice shirt to wear around town.

I also bought a military ECWCS gen iii, level 2, 1/4 zip shirt off ebay. These are made from Polartec Dry for the military. Fits well, not as comfortable next to skin as some Polartec Dry shirts I've had on. It has a courser/larger grid pattern that what I've seen on the Patagonia R-series shirts. I've been wearing it as a second shirt and it is surprisingly warm. It weighs 10.9 oz so it is in line with other second/midlayer shirts I've been trying. I'll likely keep it for hiking but for $15-20 they are worth a look.

Haven't pulled the trigger on a Patagonia R1 but am going to look at them again today now that I've seen the Kuiu Peloton 200 hoody. I've handled most of the Patagonia base layer line - I like how they feel next to skin. I'll likely end up with a bunch of it before all is said and done <G>

I have the Peleton 200 hoody. Agree with your assessment. I did run in it when it was 70* to test moisture movement and it did very well. It may have a place as a layer.

Also trying the Arc’teryx Atom LT. Very impressed with warmth and wind protection so far for something so light. Need to see how well it breathes though.

Yes. It’s the same stuff as in the Kenai, just in a simpler configuration.

I love the jacket personally. It is dead quiet, light, and breathes really well. I throw it on once I hit the black timber and am trying to sneak up on elk.

It seems to be the same material as Patagonia uses in their Nano Air.

The Atom LT is sweet. I bet you'll like it.

Just popping in to say hi Tim!

Took the Atom on a short hike with a silk weight capilene base. Was in the high 20s and quite windy (windchill of 0 deg.). Atom is surprisingly warm. Borderline too warm if head down and moving up the hills. Comfortable when stopped and seems to breathe well. Surprised by wind resistance. Need to try it more but really impressed so far. With a Peleton 200 under it I think I could spot and stalk in quite cold conditions. Really curious to see how it feels with Kuiu super Down under it. May be able to glass in really cold windy conditions obviating the need for any additional insulation. Also, I got an Atom in the color ‘Basalt’. Real nice hunting color.

Hello there, Mr O. You still raising hell on the Hunters campfire forum?
😉

Since I've had my LT hoody Arc has added a drawstring to the hood, a much needed enhancement-I'm thinking about one in the Basalt as well.

Good to know. Tried one on today along with the Atom AR. I like them both but of course I'm between a medium and large. I'd likely default to a large because the shoulders fit better. I do have the fat guy waist look but that's better than tight shoulders.
I also looked at the Arc'teryx Delta series. Like the Delta AR alot but might be a bit too warm.

I’m 5-8 and the large Atom fits well. Will allow me to easily layer, even adding a super down under it.

My Arc'teryx Atom is my favorite jacket.

Bwinters (or others),
Can you compare the warmth and the moisture wicking of the Peleton 200 to 240?

Wow 11 pages??? Again I love my first lite....

Jud,
Never even heard of First Lite till this thread and they are located 80 miles north of me. Guess I gotta get out more. 😃

I e had it all, for me, it’s first lite and king of the mountain wool... the first lite puffy is fairly fuucking amazing... imo

Can't yet, today is the first I've worn it. I'm at the range now trying to get feeling back in my fingers.........

I have a Patagonia cap 2 next to skin, Kuiu Peloton 200, and a Kuiu Kenai. Body is warm, fingers not so much. This combo will work for still hunting in cold weather. It's 20 here now and I'd feel good moving around down to single digits. Not generating any sweat at the moment so can't comment on wicking ability yet. May go run in it later today.

There are a ton of like items and it really comes down to picking by full weight (warmth) and cut/features. Down is always going to be warmer for same weight and lighter for same warmth.


Outright warmth- Arcteryx Cold WX Parka SVX (though that's probably not what you were thinking). In that case, the Firstlite Chamberlin is going to be the warmest puffy before you get into the $900 plus realm. 10+ ounces of 850 fill down is getting into true cold weather clothing.

Warmest with consideration for weight- 6-8oz of 800+ fill down, 3.5oz Apex or equivalent.

Warmest breathable lightweight- Anything with 80-100g Polartec Alpha/Coreloft Continuous (Arcteryx Proton).




With puffys you really have to go off of what is the coldest that you want to maintain absolute comfort in a true stationary position. Then think of it like a sleeping bag minus 10-15 degrees. I.e. If a certain fill weight in a sleeping bag is good to 20 degrees, the same fill weight in a jacket is good to 30-35 degrees at best. It won't be as warm as a bag due to reduced efficiency and heat transfer, as well as more air leaks. I think one reason why there is so much confusion with insulation and warmth is that very few people actually remain motionless in truly cold conditions. Especially hunters. We have never seen anyone else sitting motionless and glassing for hours in November/December when it's below 20 degrees. They are all sitting in the truck, or slowing moving.


I'll tell you that we backpack hunt from 65 degrees and sunny to negative zero and snowing with the main tactic of hiking to vantage points, glassing for hours motionless and then a near sprint to get into range.

My clothing for next year will be-

Firstlite Aerowool top and bottom (lightweight).
Light-midweight fleece top such as the Arcteryx Fortrez hoody or Patagonia R1.
Sitka Kelvin Active or Arcteryx Proton AR.
Probably the Firstlite Kanab/Obsidians even though they have durability issues.
Firstlite Chamberlin Puffy
Probably the PCU puff pants since no one wants to make a puffy pant that's warm enough.

Thanks for posting.

I'm with you on the FL Aerowool tops. I had a pair of Obsidians but don't think they'll hold up very well. I sent them back and will likely be in Kuiu Attacks. Also agree on puffy pants. Bought a pair from Plythal last week and haven't received them yet - 80 grams Primaloft Gold. We'll see.

Maybe the new Super Down Pro from KUIU? They have twice the fill of their Super Down Ultra Pants which are warm, but not warm enough for the coldest weather.

The warmest light puffy I have found is the Yukon Jacket of PHD's K Series. It is incredibly warm for its 13oz wieght and compresses like a dream inside a small stuff compression bag. for a small extra they custom size which for me, always running between an M and an L size is perfecto.

They make pants too, but I have not tried them. https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/yukon-down-jacket-k-series?phdsid=bv6bhsdq2be19csstjnoo5vqk0

The warmest-warmest I have tried is Valandre's Immelman Jacket with its 13oz down fill and a total weight of over 2lbs.http://www.valandre.com/outerwear/immelman-g2.html

I've tried lots of puffy jackets from hunting companies, The warmest of What I've tried is the kifaru LPP, if I want warmer than that, I go for something from a mountaineering company.

He will stuff those puffy pants so they are real warm if you want!!
https://goosefeetgear.com/products/down-pants/

They've lost their freaking minds up there.

Hadn't seen you around- very glad to know you are still hearty and hale!

I’m narrowing in on a system for next year.

Patagonia Capilene silkweight
Arc’teryx Atom LT
Kifaru LPP
Teton Rain Jacket

I have a Kelvin active on the way and I anticipate it being added as a warmer weather top or for pure hiking in traveling mode (no slow spot and stalk).

Also have an Aerowool top coming that I anticipate I’ll alternate with the Capilene.

I also have a Kuiu super down that works really well under the Atom. If not so cold as to need the LPP I could just go with that. Very light and takes up little space.

Edit: The Peleton 200 is a nice hoody, but I'm not sure if it fits. Maybe as a hang around camp top in warmer weather. My thought is it wont bring much if the Kelvin Active works out. Also, one mild concern I have is the lack of a more durable fabric as a top layer. If I find myself pushing through vines or brush I'm not sure how these will hold up. My Guide jacket would be perfect if only the sleeves weren't so narrow. Kuiu didn't think that one through very well in my opinion. When do you wear the Guide as a mid-layer? Rarely... Thus why the athletic cut? May find a way to fit Teton shell jacket that I have into mix. Have options.

I too am almost set with my layering system.

First lite minaret aerowool crew top
Kuiu peloton 200
First lite uncompahgre puffy
Kuiu guide jacket

Two changes I am considering are a patagonia R1 hoody in place of the peloton 200 and a foxwear.org power wool shirt in place of the aerowool. The foxwear power wool shirt intrigues me (and its only $35)

Do look at the EMS feather pak its like 5z 800fill down. $140ish and often a bunch cheaper. I like mine. But to have a few different ones seems to be good to me also

Interesting on the Atom LT. I'm checking out both the LT and AR in both the Atom and Delta series. I'm digging the Arcteryx products.

To solve the Kuiu Guide arm/chest issue, I ordered a Plythal Rut Extreme. They call it a "Rut Extreme" but its basically a wind proof fleece. I'm hopeful the arms/chest fit better.

I have one of these - its the real deal. They were on closeout prices starting yesterday. If I can get 3-4 years from it, I'm good.

Your list is looking close to mine. I'm trying to decide between the FL Uncompaghre and the Kuiu Kenai. To me the Kenai breathes better, the Uncompaghre may be a tiny bit warmer. I'll likely use both till I decide which one I like better. I'm also experimenting with using a Kuiu Peloton 240 hoody over the Aerowool/Kuiu Peloton 200. I like the 3 piece combo and think it will work for still hunting between 15-30 degrees. Of course I'll have a puffy in the pack for extended sit/glassing sessions.

In lieu of the R1, compare the Kuiu Peloton 240 and R1. I've had both in my hand, they are very similar. I'd also throw in the Arcteryx Delta AR with those two. I tried on an Arcteryx Kayanite and really dig the material and fit but suspect it would be warmer than either the R1 or Peloton 240, maybe too warm. As an aside, a bunch of new R1 pullovers have been selling on ebay for $80-90 in normal colors. If you want a non-hunting color, they can be had for cheaper.

My line of thinking in comparing the R1 and the Peloton 240 went as followed:

R1 has polar tech power grid, which I feel is a warmer material than the Toray fabric in the Peloton: however, the R1 does not come in any type of camouflage.

I read somewhere, maybe here, that the Peleton 240 gets runners and pullers easily and is not real durable, especially in brush.

So I thought that if I could find R1 in a brown or darker color, it would be a better choice.

Are the Patagonia Nano-Air pieces the only puffies that stretch? Not seeing it mentioned by others.

I don't know for sure.

BTW: Campsaver.com has Patagonia R1 hoodie on sale for $135. If you enter 15WIN you get an additional 15% off, free shipping, final cost is $114.88. Color is black. I now own one <G>

Thanks for heads up.

I now have the R1 along with a combination of 11 various FL Aerowool tops and bottoms thanks to the big FL sale and all the bad influence received at the Fire. Also the Woodbury in ASAT was too good of a deal to pass up at $195.

Glad we could help 😁

Good grief..... I got a pair of carhartt poly longjohns, a Wrangler shirt, a surplus fleece sweatshirt, a vest and a LPP. I do have 2 pair of hunting britches, just so no one tells me the Wrangler jeans will kill me......

The thin cut arm come from the mountaineering world. Lots of Patagonia etc. jackets have arms cut like that.

I think it’s because softshells are not made to be the last in a series of layers as most believe. They are meant to be worn in more active situations that require weather protection. Lots of people try to use them in the wrong situation as outer layers over lots of insulation.

Definitely not meant to be worn as a mid layer.

Kuiu Kenai and Teton insulated have stretch. Feels almost identical to the Nano Air.

Thanks for that info. I'm fat and like clothes that stretch if I can find them.

Maybe not in the category of warmest puffy's, but I just picked up an EMS Featherpack jacket from Bob's for $80. It came in day before yesterday. It was 7 degrees wet cold here yesterday and all I had on under it was a sweatshirt and it was plenty. EMS gets pretty good reviews as well. YMMV

Eddie

VEST?

How effective is a fleece/merino vest in the layering system; over the base and mid layer? Three total sleeves (base, mid, outer) is about all I can make work comfortably. Any more and I start feeling like this.....

A Patagonia puffball vest is always on the packing list. Thing is nearing 2 decades of use and is way warmer than one would think in looking/handling it.

+1 to the puffball vest. I loaned mine to a hypothermic friend once and I think it has sold 5 or 6 vests since then.

If anyone is interested in the Sitka Kelvin Active, make sure you order a size up. I’m a medium in just about everything and I could barely zip it up over a thin running shirt. Back in the bag for an exchange. There are advantages to buying in a store...

How wind resistant is the KUIU Guide jacket?

Does it suffice as an outer layer when no precipitation is expected but lots of wind?

I think it’s very wind resistant. Does well in the rain too. To a point.

Talked to the guys at Sitka yesterday. They are re-designing the Kelvin Down hoody to add a more durable surface, improve the DWR finish, and add 2oz more insulation. Not sure if they are adding down or synthetic. Price will remain the same ($389) and be launched in ~ March. You'll also notice bonus deals on the Kelvin down hoody right now all over the place but notably eBay. You can pick one up for ~ $260-270. I also note alot of Sitka gear on discount right now for 20-30% off. I picked up a few pieces to try.

I'm waiting for the new Kelvin down hoody this spring as my puffy jkt. I'm going to sell my FL Uncompaghre and likely my Kuiu Kenai. I've decided to quit fighting the big fat puffy under an outer layer - I'm going to wear something quiet and light for the hike in and to still hunt, then puffeize upon arrival.

Sounds like the Kelvin down hoody will be a nice piece. Any thoughts on how it will compare to the Kifaru LPP? I have the LPP now and see it as a glassing or hanging around camp piece. It’s quite warm and the heavy duty material on the front and bottom of sleeves is quite durable.

Well, wind resistant is the key word. It’s not windproof like say the Sitka Jetstream.

As to how much wind before you feel it through the jacket? I’m not exactly sure. Let’s just say I wore it snowboarding once and won’t do it again, because ripping down a groomer is enough to feel the air moving through the fabric.

Here in MT 40 mph or more winds are not uncommon during hunting season. I don’t find myself reaching for the Guide if it looks like a windy day.

For this winter I purchased a Columbia lightweight jacket. It has down and also has that reflective lining. You would never think of it as a hunting jacket. But now I certainly do. We have had some extremely cold days and nights here in Minnesota this winter, and that lightweight little jacket has kept me toasty warm. I would not have believed it when I purchased it. Great Jacket. And I purchased it at an outlet and paid very little money for it (I think $50). If your looking for a reasonably priced packable jacket to keep you warm I highly recommend it, although its not going to come in camo colors.

I don't know as I've never had a Kifaru LPP in my hands. I do know people that have the current version of the Sitka Kelvin down hoody and they say its really, really warm.

Would agree with bellydeep. Have both Guide and Jetstream jackets. Much prefer the Jetstream for when I want to cut wind.

Over the weekend I made the trip to an REI to check out the patagonia R1. It was thew first time I was able to see one in person and try it on. The hoody was all they had in stock, which got me thinking. If I would purchase an r1, would a hoody or the jacket be a better choice? I would think a hoody would fit better in a layering system but the jacket would be better at regulating body temperature (by having the option of unzippering it)

Thoughts?

The R1 hoody has a 1/2 zipper or a bit more. I looked at the jacket and chose the 1/2 zipper option. I'm not crazy about jackets without hoods. They keep you warm and cut the wind even when it's warmish out. I also really like a hood in the mid-layers. When it's cold I'll wear 3 hoods layered over/under each other. I find it hard to be warm without a hood when it's cold.

You can get the non-hooded version in a 1/4 zip too.

Frankly, I’m not that wild about hoods on base or mid layers. You can always duplicate the function of a hood with a neck gaiter and beanie. If I need a hood it’s probably pretty cold and I’ll use a heavier layer for that. Plus, you start getting hoods on everything and next thing you know you’ve got a built in pillow between your pack and back of head made from 16 different hoods.

I am a big fan of wind block vests and wear in conjunction with outer wear.

I hunt around the crazies and up north by the breaks and always seems like wind is blowing

My experience with the Guide jacket is that it is wind resistant, but the material doesn't have much insulating property so you feel the cold outer layer. As long as you have insulation on under it, it works well enough.

bwinters For arguments sake, lets say the jacket had a hood. Would you then find the jacket more appealing than the hoody?

Also, I think from your posts I can assume you have the guide jacket ( as do I). I also assume you find the guide jacket to be way to tight when worn over a puffy ( as I have found out when trying to wearing my uncompahgre puffy under my guide). Can you comment on how your patagonia r1 hoody fits under your guide jacket?

Thanks

Yeah I could like a full Zip R1 hoody, mainly because I like hoods.

I do have a Guide jacket and find it really tight in the shoulders and arms with a substantial puffy. The 60 gram First Lite Cirrus fits under the Guide well enough. The Uncompaghre and Kuiu Kenai, not so much.

The R1 hoody is fairly thin, but warm, and fits under the Guide really well. I'm tending to agree with whoever said these softshell fleece type jackets were not designed to be worn as an outer shell but as a mid layer or warmish weather outer layer. I've tried alot of them and am coming to that same realization. As a result, I'm going a different direction - Sitka Kelvin Down Hoody as an outer layer while stationary. I'll still have a softshell for moving around but won't plan to stuff layers under it.

Did 18 miles yesterday in the Smokys, not big elevation gain, only about 10-1100 feet but it was rolly-polly all day. Temps in the low 40's, a bit of wind, overcast and crappy, did run into light rain in the PM. I wore the FL Aerowool Minerett under the Patagonia R1 all day - excellent combo. Yesterday was a good example of why I like hoods on midlayers. It was windy in stretches depending on which side of the mountain you were on. On the windy side, my ears got cold. Flip up the hood, no more cold ears.

I also had a Kuiu 240 Peloton with me. I started off hiking with the FL, R1, and 240 in the AM when it was in the 30's. Within 1/2 mile peeled the 240 off. Both the R1 and 240 are deceptively warm. The 240 is also offers more than a bit of wind resistance. I also wore it when it was lightly raining. We hiked in the misty rain for ~ 1.5 hours and the rain never made it to my skin.

If I was to pontificate, the Minerett + R1 be good for hiking down into the low-mid 20's, maybe cooler if you run warm. I don't. The Minerett-R1-240 Peloton would make a great still hunt combo likely down into the 20's.

I will apologize up front if has been discussed. Anyone use a Kryptec puffy and what are your thoughts?

They are pretty heavy in comparison to other jackets of similar warmth.

I had one briefly, then returned it.

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback.

I found a now-discontinued Sitka Kelvin Ultra light down jacket on STP for under $100.
Packs small into a pocket and is extremely warm under a shell of some sort.
It is not tough enough to be an outer layer.

Kifaru's LPP is available in highlander.....

Are you saying they are the same thing? Have not seen either so don't know. Would guess which one cost the most.

Not the same jacket but does come in the same camo pattern.

Just received a Sitka Kelvin Active the other day. Initial impression is that it will be a great layer for those warmer than usual days in the mountains. Late archery or early rifle seasons could see extensive use. Will try it in a variety of scenarios over the next week or so.

Be curious to see how it does for you. My local place is having a sale on Sitka.

I received one on Monday. My initial impression is that I like it better than the Kuiu Kenai, FL Uncompagrhe. I'm keeping the Kelvin Lite and selling both the Kenai and Uncompaghre. It also fits well under a Jetstream.

I've been trying on alot of Sitka Gear in the past couple weeks - have a bedroom full of it. It fits me well - better than FL and Kuiu. I also think it's slightly better attention to detail than the other two. I'm probably going to look like a Sitka advertisement this fall........

I got the Kelvin Active 20% off at Midway. Definitely buy a size up if you, or anyone else, decide to try one. It's very light. The niche it fills for me is either spot & stalk in cooler conditions or hiking down to 20 or so, maybe less if reasonably strenuous. That would be with only a capilene silkweight or aerowool base layer. Adding the Arcteryx Atom over it is reasonably robust while adding a Lost Park Parka over the Sitka Kelvin Active would handle very cold conditions. These options, plus a light rain jacket, seem to create a flexible layering system that handles moisture very well, works for all conditions I've seen from late archery through mid-rifle seasons in the Rockies at 10k', and is very light. The Lost Park parka doesn't pack real small, but not terrible either. For now I don't see carrying both the Atom and the LPP to go over the SKA, but there would be little weight penalty for doing so. 1st rifle conditions can vary dramatically so perhaps then? It's really amazing to feel how well these items manage moisture, keep you warm and yet pack so small and light.

Any one have or seen the OR Colossus?

I’m leaning towards the Kifaru lost parka full zip. I normally wear XL. Would I be good with XL or should I go XXL? Any help is much appreciated. This is all new to me.

Good info there.

After some playing around, I think I’ve settled on a Capilene base layer with a Kuiu Peleton 200 and a Sitka Kelvin Active to cover a lot of CO hunting conditions for me. Have a Kifaru LPP to top it off if really cold or an Arcteryx Atom if a little less insulation will work.

Atom LT or AR?

Atom LT.
As a system, it weighs less, is less volume, and manages moisture far better than what I was using. With the Kuiu Teton rain jacket, these pieces give me some flexibility to adjust to about any forecast conditions.

Anyone uses the Stetchdown pieces from Mountain Hardware?

Looked at them but have never had one in hand.

I finally got the opportunity to try out my Patagonia R1. It is an awesome piece. I cannot believe how warm it is compared to how light and thin it is. I can certainly see how it is a fast drying piece of clothing. One thing that I was wrong about was where it would fit in with my layering system. I had a preconceived notion that my layering system would be an aerowool base, the peleton 200, followed by the R1, and finally the Kuiu guide jacket. However, the R1 is more form fitting than I thought, and fits better under the peleton 200. Not a big deal but something you figure out when you have the various pieces in hand and can actually try them on.

I’ve never seen a Peleton 200 but I assumed it was almost the same thing as an R1. What’s the theory between wearing both?

They are very similar.

An issue, if you want to call it that, that I ran into today is that the hood on the Peleton 200 has no water resistance. Combined with the Kelvin Active which has no hood, and it’s not ideal on a rainy, misty day. Temp was 34 and I was comfortable, just wish hood repelled water.

Just another layer that is warm and breathable and light for colder days. I seem to get colder quicker than most people.

I never realized that the Active didn’t have a hood. That seems like a mistake. May be a reason to look at the Patagonia Nano Air or OR Uberlayer for a polar tech alpha jacket with a hood.

Understood. Weird thing is I’m very cold natured at home and in everyday life but run pretty warm on the trail

Funny you say that about the Kuiu Peleton 200 and R1 - I found the same thing. R1 in a large fits me perfect. Wore mine Sunday on a hike. Its growing into one of my favorite pieces of clothing.

Kind of wish it had a hood. With the DWR finish it would really add to the versatility. But, I can easily use another layer for the hoody, and when its warmer I won't need the additional layer or the associated hood so I think it all works out. Otherwise I really like the Kelvin Active. That piece will fit into any mountain hunting season.

For warm weather I'll have an aerowool shirt. As it cools off I'll add the Kelvin Active. That brings a light water resistance too. Next I'd add the Peleton 200 under the Kelvin Active. For quite cold I'll add the Arc'teryx Atom or Kifaru LPP and lastly I'll have a rain jacket in the pack if necessary. Some combination of those items covers just about everything. All very light and pack-able. I look forward to packing it all up as if I were headed to CO and comparing the weight and volume. I think it will be a significant improvement.

I do still wish the hoody on the 200 was better with water. That would be a strength of the Arc'teryx Fortrez or Naga in lieu of the 200 but I'm not sure how well they breathe. The 200 is quite good in that regard. Maybe try some Nikwax Polar Proof or Tx Direct on the 200 hood?

One more layering item thought for the day. Hiking through the eastern woods scouting yesterday, temp was 34deg and occasional light rain and mist. Had the Kelvin Active over the Peleton 200 and was comfortable and the KA shed the water just fine. What it does not shed, nor does an Arcteryx Atom or Kifaru LPP, is Briers. That is one thing a jacket like the Kuiu Guide handles much better. I don't think it will be an issue for out west, but certainly one more thing that makes layering out east vs. west different.

I love my R1, even though it see's more use around the house and around town than anywhere else. During the winter I'll end up wearing mine almost every day until my wife starts making fun of me. I'd like to get another pullover and one of the hooded versions. Has anyone compared the Sitka Core HW Hoodie to the R1 hoody? Seems like they would be very similar.

Purely based on "internet knowledge" but I would think misting rain would be ideal conditions for a soft shell jacket.

I agree on the East vs West. As much as I love looking at the First Lite and Sitka websites, until I'm in a position to regularly hunt the mountain west I can get by just fine with much less technical clothing. I actually prefer cheap fleeces for moving around in my woods. If they get torn up then not big deal.

Briars can shred things that's for sure. Though low-tech by today's standards, I've had very good luck with using a microtex jacket as on outer layer over my more expensive, fragile under layers. Fends wear very well.

The East vs West thing is why I'll probably end up with two clothing systems. Sure, some pieces will be in both systems, but I can get buy with some pretty inexpensive and lower tech options for quite a few of my situations.

I have both the R1 and Core HW hoody. They are similar. I'd give a nudge in warmth to the R1. Time will tell but I'm guessing the R1 will withstand wear better as well. The difference to me is the Core HW is a true midlayer piece that can be worn as an outer while the R1 is a hybrid midlayer-outer piece. I like them both. I've gone to using my R1 for my everyday cool weather hiking outer layer and my Core HW as my hunting midlayer.

Thanks. I spend a lot of time reading posts at backpackinglight.com. They have some guys there that get very technical about different materials, clo values, drying times, etc. Most of them prefer standard 100wt fleeces over the r1, claiming they're both warmer and dry quicker. I find the R1 more comfortable but haven't worn either in demanding enough conditions to pass judgment. I do know my North Face TK100's are 2-3oz lighter so once of those are more likely to make the packing list if I was inclined bring a mid layer on one of my backpacking trips.

Anyone tried the Kuiu Ultra Merino? Sounds functionally like Aerowool.

Zero actual experience but I'm fairly sure I've read that the Kuiu is more comfortable but less durable. You know how valuable second and third hand info over the internet is though...

Spent the past 4-6 weeks hiking and trying out various base layers. I've tried/worn Kuiu Peleton 130, First Lite Aerowool Minaret, Sitka Core Lightweight, Outdoor Research Venture, Patagonia Cap 2 and 3. I've done enough to come up with a couple conclusions:

Kuiu Peleton 130 - I tried this on and it felt like sandpaper against my skin. I didn't like it all all. I didn't wear it and sent it back.
Sitka Core Lightweight - same feel as Kuiu Peleton 130. I sent this back as well.
First Lite Aerowool Minaret - This has become my favorite shirt. These are soft, dry quick, don't stink. They are the real deal.
Outdoor Research Venture - I really like this shirt and wear it hiking alot, probably more than the Minaret because it has a 1/4 zip and I find I used the zipper alot. These things dry quick and mine has been pretty durable for how thin it it. This shirt also tends to acquire an odor quicker than the Minaret.
Patagonia 2/lightweight - I have an older version of this shirt and it may not function as good as the newer version. I still sweat in this and it doesn't seem to wick as well as the Minaret or Venture.
Patagonia 3/midweight - Again I have an older version and this shirt is a bit too warm for me to wear when its above 50.

Of all the shirts I've worn, the Minaret and Venture are my favorites. I like the Patagonia shirts and likely need to buy a couple new ones to see if I like them as well as the Min/Ven.

I have been happy with the Pategonia silkweight Capilene as a base. Have a minaret to try. The Peleton 200 over it is nice. Didn’t like that the 200 got real wet so I treated it with nikwax polar proof. Water rolls right off it now. Hope it’s still moves sweat....

The lightweight Capilene has become one of my favorites also, prm. Capilene also doesn't get so smelly after a few days of use-unlike the old variety, which I called Stinkilene. 😃

Timely topic for me. I've been trying to determine what to use for a puffy jacket. I don't necessarily need a camo pattern.

I'm interested in the Arc'teryx Atom LT hoody. Others have mentioned the basalt color, but I can't seem to find that color in their offerings. Is there something I'm missing?

I can't find Basalt either. However, the "Roman Pine" looks like a possibility for a 'hunting' color?

Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Arcteryx-Atom-LT-Hoody-Mens/dp/B002K0MQWI?th=1&psc=1

I have a set of the 145 long underwear and gloves

My only gripe is the short legged pants ride up and bunch up behind your knees by the end of the day

I especially like the gloves

Big Montbell fan. Thanks for the suggestion.

Have any of you guys tried the Simms (as in flyrod) jackets? They are impressively light, warm, and well designed.

I did, but I accidentally spilled my non-fat soy latte and some killer quinoa salad on it so now it's ruined for me.

Did you spill your latte on your Prius seat too?

Don't be silly, I ride a Vespa.

Hate to revive an old thread but it’s a good one. Has anyone tried the new version KUIU superdown PRO? How do they compare for use while glassing and sitting stationary? Thx

I have not. Spent quite a bit of time in a Sitka Kelvin Lite hoody in WY at temps in the teens. I took a nap at mid-day with those temps.

Mountain Hardwear "Ratio" Q-Shield down...bought on sale...excellent. Like wearing half of a sleeping bag. 13.9 oz, fits in a little stuff sack.

With 5oz of fill it’s about a 35 degree jacket for complete comfort while absolutely stationary for hours. That’s with wearing a thin base layer, and light to medium fleece (Patagonia R1) under it. If your in the sunlight, you can go lower.





Used a variety of puff jackets the last three weeks from negative 3 or 4 degrees to almost 60. Mostly between low teens and 35 degrees. The Firstlite Chamberlin has no equal in the hunting companies puffys. It’s a solid 20’ish degree jacket when worn as above.

You could buy three of these for the price of the Chamberlin, and then have a lot of layering flexibility.

Just a thought
https://www.rei.com/product/137433/rei-co-op-magma-850-down-hoodie-mens

Where does the Sitka Kelvin Down hoody WS fit in? Does it compare to the chamberlain?

Yes. But it still wouldn’t do what the Chamberlin does. And to layer three together, you would have to go up a size for each one. If you needed a large, you have to have large, extra large, and XX large. Still wouldn’t match the Chamberlin.

74 layers is not the road to happiness. The Chamberlin is half the cost of it’s closest competitor that offers the same fill weight and quality. If someone needs a puff jacket to stay warm for true stationary activity below 30 degrees, it’s the best option right now.

Not quite. It has a bit of advantage with the Gore Windstopper, but has significantly less fill.

Worn as above-

Chamberlin= between 15-20 degrees.

Sitka Kelvin Down WS- 25-30 degrees.

Thanks. Good info. How much fill does the chamberlain have?

Formid - what can/do you wear over the chamberlin?

Do you prefer FL over the Kifaru LPP?

Right at 11oz in a large.









Just a rain/wind shell.








Not prefer, they’re just different. The Chamberlin and LPP are not in the same class/use category.


I use the heck out of the LPP. It just isn’t suitable for stationary work in truly cold weather. 35-40 degrees and stationary, lower level activity at 15-20 degrees, and movement under load below that- yeah, it does well.

Is there an Army issue item like the LPP?

My current layering has either a silk weight base or FL Aerowool, then a 240 Peleton, Arcteryx Atom and then the LPP. It has to be cold for me to use the LPP. It’s good glassing in the teens. The Atom might be my favorite clothing item.

Not really. The ECWS Level 7 is a “high loft” puff jacket, but it’s not really comparable.








So this is what I’ve talked about in this thread...


So that system is good for glassing in the teens for you. If you wouldn’t mind- what does that mean? Are you sitting completely motionless (I.e. not moving at all, no stomping feet, rubbing arms, etc.). ? If so, for how long? Is that in the sunlight? What are you wearing on your legs?

I ask these things because you have what amounts to a 30-40 degrees sleeping bag as far as loft and insulation, yet without the greater thermal effects of the bag, and your saying you are good to the teens...?

I haven't read the entire thread so this one might have been mentioned. Last month I bought a Marmot Guides Down Hoodie jacket. It's quite packable. 700 fill. A few days ago I was hunting in 4F temps with a light wool shirt and a light fleece vest under it. I was plenty warm. The regular price is $250 but the Amazon has some sizes and colors on a close out for under $200.

Any synthetics? Down gets damp from perspiration even when being careful. It is also expensive.

I have a Patagonia that I like for these purposes. Very light, reasonably compressible, quite warm. And it was cheap, but its falling g apart at last and needs replacement.

I have the level 7 puff jacket, and it is very warm. I didn't think there was a comparable to the LPP, but since I retired, I'm not sure what they're adding or replacing anymore.

Sorry, I meant specific shell recommendations/favorites. Thanks.

Form,

I appreciate your field testing and realize that any such testing must have some objective criteria to use.

However, short of coyotes and whitetails (where most of the time, weight is not a concern), how realistic is sitting motionless for hours? And why did you pick that as your yardstick?

I live and hunt in Montana in November, in one of the colder parts of the state. I can't imagine carrying enough clothes up a mountain to sit motionless for hours when its around 0* F, and even if I had the clothing, I'd have to bring a second set of boots to keep my feet warm once I got there.

Point being, I never assume that I will have to be motionless for hours, and really I can't think of why I would. Usually I sit down to glass, throw on a layer or two, and try to sit for as long as possible. Then, I either get up and hike to a new glassing spot or take a short warm-up walk and then come back to my spotting scope. Even if I bring an insulation layer for top and bottom and am mostly comfortable, my feet will get cold and I'll have to move to warm those up.

I posted earlier that it was 4 degrees a couple days ago when we were elk hunting. Sit motionless for hours in that? Not a chance. I've never found a soft enough rock in the mountains for my butt to take it for that long. My feet would be the first victims.

Every person is different so there is no one right answer.

For me, the LPP over the Atom is very warm. It was too warm for hiking in single digit temps at 12k. Then I had a Patagonia silk weight base, 240 and Atom. The Atom is a surprisingly warm jacket. This morning it was in the 20s but very windy and my body was completely comfortable as well. I was still, just leaning against a tree glassing a mountain. I’m never moving to get warm while glassing. If I get that cold it’s time to start hiking somewhere. It’s just hunting, I’m. It that motivated! Hands and feet are typically another story when temps get into the teens. Legs have been ok with FL Merino, Prana Zion with the puffy kuiu insulation over the top while glassing. I did pick up some big Cabelas gloves for glassing and they are awesome. kind of bulky, but warm!!

My feet are always the first to get me moving. Trying some Superfeet in insulated Crispis. It’s a little better.

I still love this thread.

And still no one has called anyone an idiot yet

I was all set to buy a Sitka Kelvin down hoody but will re-evaluate the FL Chamberlan.

Form - how durable do you think the exterior material is on the Chamberlin? I believe its nylon.

https://www.mountainhardwear.com/me...ariationColor=015#pgsize=28&start=12

Have you personally had a high quality down jacket wet out? I/we have used a bunch, and I can not say on good down, especially water treated down, has lost loft.

My second question would be- why are you sweating in a puffy?









Whew. That’s a bit open ended. What are you wanting out of the shell?










For one reason, you have to have a standard to compare against. Of a “moving” standard is used there is almost no usable info that can be gleaned. For instance, last week in 5 degrees, snow falling, and a 8-10 mph wind, I was in a thin base layer and waffle top (LW fleece) while slowly moving, and would have been drenched from sweat with any weight puffy. In contrast, my partner had the same layers on, plus a heavy puffy, and a rain jacket and was fine.




Second, for hunting- we get to ridge tops and glass big valleys all day. I agree with you in that I doubt very many people sit and glass late season, as we’ve never met a single person doing it and in the last decade in 4-5 western states. However it works, and we kill pretty consistently doing it.


As for what you do- why would you want to “need” to move instead of choosing clothing that lets you just sit and glass? Feet are the problem, but there are ways to mitigate that.


If you use the “I move when I get cold” standard... there’s no info there. That’s how you get people say that a jacket that has as much insulation as a 50 degree sleeping bag “is an oven”. It means nothing.








I guess the 40+ dudes we’ve conducted testing with are sissy’s. Not one dude has been comfortable in those temps wearing those clothes.







It’s a normal puff jacket. I wouldn’t wear it busting brush, but then I couldn’t move at all in it anyways. The Sitka with WS is much more durable.

The Atom is a nice jacket, and probably has the most comfortable hood of anything I've tried. But it is noisy, especially when it gets real cold. I like either the Kuiu Kenai or Patagonia Nano Air better because they are quiet. I wore a Kuiu Peloton 200 hoody and a Nano Air last weekend. It was -2* F. It worked very well when active. Of course, I had to layer up when I stopped.

Could you list what you carry to allow you to sit motionless for so many hours?


I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't find it practical to carry as many clothes as I think I would need to stay warm (and again, cold feet are ultimately my limiting factor).


Also, I don't mind taking short breaks to warm up during glassing sessions. My eyes and brain welcome the disruption.


Overall, I think we hunt using similar tactics. I'm just curious as to how you are able to sit so long.

You’re saying 40+ dudes couldn’t comfortably glass in the teens wearing an Aerowool base, Peleton 240, Arcteryx Atom and an LPP?? I find that an insanely warm combination. Too warm for anything but glassing. I’ve been wearing it a few weeks and it’s fantastic for me. If it’s too cold when wearing that I’m not going hunting. I think the coldest I’ve sat with it is 0-5 deg. Body is totally comfortable.

Thanks.

I know I'm being OCD but it might be helpful to list which ATOM you have. They make 3 or 4 levels of Atom Jacket. (AR, LT, SL, etc)

I’d also be very interested in this. It seems like the cold seeps up through my feet and limits the amount of time I can sit in cold weather as well.

Try a 18"x60"x1/2" ensolite pad, feet to small of back insulation and some padding. It rolls up and carries easily.

mike r

There are a few combinations that generally work, but down to 15-20 degrees this year-

Lightweight base layer top and bottom- FL Aerowool, Patagonia Level 1, FS 100, etc.

Light to mid fleece top- Patagonia R1 grid, etc.

Wind shirt.

Whatever pants one prefers- Prana Zion, Sitka Timberlines FL, Obsidian, etc.


That’s what’s worn moving. Immediately upon stopping, put on Chamberlin jacket and rain jacket over that.

Lightweight puff pants go on, heavy weight puff pants (PCU Level 7, Beyond, etc.) over that. Then rain pants over all of it. Add neck gaitor and beenie. The main weakness is puff pants. No one is really making down pants comparable to the FL Chamberlin. Nunatak will build them, and I’ll have a pair next year.


Any colder and you really need to step up to a true artic suit such as the Arc’teryx LEAF Cold WX SV.







No, not motionless. How long were you sitting still and “totally comfortable”?

Mountain serape!!!!!!

And I like a windshirt over the base layer and under the fleece insulation layer.

Mine is an Atom LT Hoody.

Been reading some of the posts here.

Validates the point to me that everyone is different.

I have, and likely will tomorrow through Tuesday, sit in low 20s-mid 30s degree from around 6:45 until 11:00 am. Id say the wind will be blowing 8-10 mph. I may stand up once an hour to give my back a rest. I'll be sitting on a cheap walmart cushion seat, on top of a rock in a place that the sun won't be hitting until 10:30 or so. I won't be warm, won't be too comfortable, but it will be totally bearable.

My clothes are fairly basic, with a few nice pieces thrown in, but it's works for me.
I'll be wearing:

Old Under Armor 2.0 base
LL Bean Midweight Merino Base Layers (they call it 250 weight)
Carhartt Midweight Hoody
Microtex pants
Kifaru LPP
HPG Mountain Serape
Darn Tough Socks (the heavy ones)
Cabelas/Meindl Denali
Blaze orange hat from Cabelas (cheapo)

Usually just wear a cheap pair of thin gloves and keep a handwarmer or two in the pocket on the LPP or my Hoody.

Been doing basically the same for a few years and it's been working for me. Replaced Berber Fleece windstopper pullover last year with LPP and haven't regretted it. I don't carry my bibs anymore since I've got the Mountain Serape. I get cold sometimes, but I honestly think you will no matter what you bring if you're not moving at all.

Something for wind obviously, deal with light precip, and protection for an underlying puffy in the event I want to do a bit of travel with it on. Just pitch me something down the middle for an all-arounder. Thanks

Disclaimer- my experience in heavy use of rain shells in constant rain, is the most limited experience I have in clothing systems. I use them, but mostly I’m having to move fast enough that I’ll sweat out no matter what shell is used, or I’m perfectly still and breathe ability isn’t super important. Mostly they’re used as wind blockers.

I would ask AK Lanche his thoughts on shells if it’s for constant rain use.


Given that, with what I’ve used and seen used heavily the buy once option is going to be Arc’teryx- probably the Alpha AR or FL, or Sitka Stormfront. On the mid level stuff there really doesn’t seem to be a clear winner. The Firstlite SEAK has done well, and I would probably lean that way in the $300 range. Lower than that and Marmot Precip is probably as good as any.


Items that work uses are Arc’teryx, Beyond, and Patagonia. All have performed well keeping me dry; with the cut, features, and durability going to Arc’teryx.

I've been using First Lites Chamberlain this season and I absolutely think it's the best thing since peanut butter.

Is the down treated in the FL chamberlin?

Yes.

Anyone tried an Eddie Bauer Evertherm jacket? Uses that relatively new Thindown insulation material. After a cursory look it seems like a nice material for a light, thin jacket with decent warmth. None of the reviews I’ve seen have commented on whether it breathes well. Though it seems to have seen some good testing on climbs in the Cascades and on Everest. EB has sole use rights to the material for now.

https://www.eddiebauer.com/campaign/evertherm

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RaMnvDKTEXk&time_continue=83

http://www.thegearcaster.com/2017/08/eddie-bauer-reinvents-the-down-jacket.html

This is the PERFECT example of what I have been saying, and at least EB is honest about it, even if they aren’t so forthcoming.



Here is their rating for their “negative 20 degree” Evertherm BC Jacket-




It a “-20 degree” jacket, but in reality it’s a 40 degree jacket if you aren’t moving.

I don’t think anyone disagrees that how you use it drives its utility. It’s all in the layering.

Note: Temperature ratings are based on a controlled laboratory test, using low and moderate activity levels. Also consider: your sensitivity to cold and wind-chill; time of exposure; activity level; and use of layering.

bwinters
I was wondering what Sitka gear you have decided on for your layering system? I have been looking at Sitka lately and think I would like to try some of their products.

A more specific question I have for anybody is what is the difference between the kelvin active jacket and the kelvin lite hoody? I think the lite hoody is warmer but i dont know how durable it is. I am considering one of those jackets under my Kuiu guide jacket. Any thoughts?

Thanks

if it's under something, how does durable figure in?

One of the advantages of a layering system is the ability to shed or add layers. One might not always know what the 'outer' layer will be.

So if it ain't 'durable', shed or add that layer first..... problem solved

Or maybe the outer layer is still too warm even after shedding the inner layer.....it was a simple question

Can’t speak to kelvin lite hoody, but the kelvin active is a nice lightweight jacket that works well on cool days or if doing some harder climbing or hiking in colder conditions. It moves moisture well. While I really like it, it didn’t seem to fit into my system this year. The Arc’teryx Atom typically got used instead. Had it not been so cold perhaps the KA would have been used more.

For me a puffy is purely for sitting still. I was able to get a Chamberlin new on eBay for $180 a few weeks ago, and I sold my Uncompahgre the next day. The Chamberlin is significantly warmer, and on my scales the Uncompahgre was 20.6 oz and the Chamberlin 25.9 oz. Worth it. Packs down very well.

Chris
A very valid point. I guess my mistake is I'm hoping those jackets will fill more roles than they were designed to. My question should be how are people using the Kelvin active and Kelvin light hoodie in their layering system? I'm also think I should be looking for more of an insulation layer (rather than a puffy) that would fit under my Kuiu Guide or maybe the jetstream (if I go totally to Sitka).
Thanks

How much warmth are you looking for while wearing the Kuiu DCS Guide? It’s tough to get much insulation under the Guide and thus retain the benefits of the Guide as an outer layer. The Kuiu Superdown puffy isn’t bad at all under the Guide, but it won’t be comparable to a true warm puffy like the Chamberlin if your glassing or otherwise not active. As for the Kelvin Active, if you wear it under the Guide it will defeat the purpose of the Kelvin Active, that is to breath well. I don’t wear my Guide much anymore. I do think there are times a shell is useful, mostly limited to areas where I’ll be hiking through a lot of brush or things where a light jacket such as the Kelvin Active or Arc’teryx Atom would not hold up well. The issue with the guide I have is it neither breathes real well in warmer conditions nor does much when it’s really cold. However, if I’m moving through the woods around my house or retrieving a deer nearby, I need something like the Guide otherwise the briars will destroy softer jackets.

Thanks for reply prm but your response brings another question to mind. I understand why your comment about the Kelvin Active under the guide is not a good idea. So how does the Kelvin Active work in Sitkas system? Does Sitkas Jet stream and Timberline jackets breath so much better than the Guide?

I don’t have any experience with the other Sitka jackets. Though I didn’t wear it much this year, when I did wear it, I wore the Kelvin Active as my outer layer when easily hiking in the cold (0-20*) or less effort in cool temps. I typically wore a Patagonia silkweight base and Kuiu Peleton 240 mid layer. If I stop to glass or sit in the cold I add another puffy (Kifaru Lost Park). That worked really, really well for me in CO. But as I mentioned before, that wouldn’t work at all at my house in No. VA. The Arc’teryx, Kelvin Active and Lost Park would be destroyed in one day if I tried to move through the woods here with any of them as an outer layer. Though fine in the tree stand. The previous year I did both elk and mule deer hunts with my Guide jacket and a variety of layers and it rarely worked out as well for me. There are as many opinions as there are people on this forum as to what is right. I can only say what worked for me. Though the many trials I did a year ago were influenced by members here!

Sorry missed this - have been busy.

I have about every worthy piece of Sitka Gear now............

For most of my 'active' hunting, I settled on:

Sitka Core mid or heavyweight bottom, First Lite Aerowool top next to skin
Sitka Core heavyweight hoody or Patagonia R1 as top mid layer
Sitka JetStream jacket, Timberline pants
For insulation, Sitka Kelvin Lite hoody

I normally hike in the dark in my Heavyweight Core hoody with both Jetstream and Kelvin Lite in/on my pack (Mystery Ranch Pintler/Metcalf). I hunted this year in Wyoming and it was 0 degrees opening AM. I wore the sitka medium weight and heavyweight bottoms under my Timberline pants. I wore either the lightweight or midweight under the heavyweight alot this past fall when it was colder. I was surprised how warm I was still hunting in WY with just my Jetstream on. I sat for 2-3 hours in late AM and put the Kelvin Lite on. I may have even taken a nap in the sun...........

In November, I bought one of the close-out Sitka Kelvin down hoody. Best piece of gear ever when its cold. I wore it all week in December PA deer hunting with temps in the 20-30. I wore it to the gun range this AM (19 degrees when I left the house). It is really, really warm. They run huge - I normally wear a large in Sitka jackets, I ended up with a medium Kelvin down hoody - and can still wear my Jetstream under it.

On durability, I looked at that with the puffy jackets. Puffy's are very susceptible to holes/rips/punctures - at least in the crap I end up hunting in. I simply either don't wear them as an outer layer or do so when I'm stationary. You wouldn't want to be actively moving around with the Kelvin Lite puffy, its way too warm. I dare you to do so in the Kelvin down hoody......

Is the Jetstream more or less the same as the Kuiu DCS Guide jacket?

I was just looking at the new Kuiu Axis Hybrid jacket. Not sure how it would fit into a system, but for snowy or wet hunts or times when I want a more robust shell it may have a place .

Going to apologize up front as I have not read the entire thread. Does anyone have any feed back on Mountain Hardwear? I picked up one of there down jackets recently for a very good price. It’s lite and very warm but I’m not sure how durable it’s going to be. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Jetstream ~ Guide Jacket. I've had both, prefer the fit of the Sitka line better.

Looked at the Axis jacket, not sure the difference between it and the Guide jacket?

bwinters

Which is your outer layer? The Jetstream or the Kelvin Lite Hoody.

Sitka advertises the Kelvin Lite hoody as an outer layer or underneath an outer shell. I was wondering how you use it.

Thanks

Jetstream 90% of the time. The Kelvin is a bit too 'scratchy' on the exterior for my liking plus it is much more prone to tearing a hole in the fabric.

Have all three. I would say the Axis and the Jetstream are more comparable. Both shed water better, are warmer, and definitely offer better wind resistance than than DCS IME.

After running the DCS for two seasons not really a fan. I think the Axis is better overall soft shell and addresses what for me are the DCS's shortcomings. Just my opinion. I know guys that swear by their Guide jackets. Between the Jetstream and the Axis I prefer the Axis only because I like the cut of it better with the longer back. Again, personal preference.

At the end of the day insulation is about loft/density. No need to get overly hung up on brands/names.

For extreme cold I prefer a baffled down parka. Otherwise I like layers, topped with a light or mid weight synthetic or down parka/jacket.

Are the sleeves on the Axis larger in diameter than the DCS? How does the Jetstream compare in sleeve length and diameter? One of the issues I've had with the DCS is the sleeves are too "athletically cut" to wear any kind of puffy underneath.

Jetstream sleeves are definetely wider, specially in the forearm, than those of the Guide Jacket which, in my opinion, are ridiculously tight,

They are a tad shorter, too.

My experience as well.

What are you guys doing about orange layers? I’ve really struggled to find what I’m looking for in The right shade of orange for Colorado hunting.
Last year was my first with a Kuiu Guide DCS vest as my go to orange layer during both a muzzleloader elk hunt and a separate bear hunt in September , oh and a cold snowy antelope in early October in Wyoming. I’ve also liked my cheaper Kings orange soft shell vest, but wish it had a DWR coating, I haven’t sat out in a soaking rain with it yet, but I’m thinking the water resistance they claim is just hoping the fabric doesn’t soak. Of course Kuiu has now dropped that vest in orange. And even then it’s a little bit of a matte or slightly darker orange.
I was surprisingly comfortable during a nasty hour plus cold long rain storm in my KUIU vest with Black Diamond Access Hybrid puffy jacket underneath (primaloft Silver partial insulation, DWR coating,’discontinued but similar to the First Light jacket in current lineup which they now make in what looks like a blaze orange. (13 ounces advertised weight)). That storm was of course when two bears came in to our calls but the girl I was hunting with couldn’t make it happen on either.. And in trying to go super light that day I ditched my real rain gear( Sitka cloudburst), so my legs were the only thing getting wet, but was tolerable enough in old light fleece pants.
The Kuiu vest was little more than I wanted at times on my muzzleloader hunt in up to 80 degree heat, which sucked and had me wanting a good quality orange long sleeve shirt. I’ve been eyeballing some options from Mountain Hardware that I hope would do the trick.

I’m glad to see a lot of recommendations for some of the Arcteryx options which are offered in Orange. Was t sure why I never saw hunters using those.

I usually am wearing a Marmot PreCip jacket in Mars Orange over my puffy or polypro.

I have a polypro front zip in blaze orange, and a under armor hoodie in blaze orange, and between the three, some combo is just right for conditions.

I always have a day pack, I put whatever isn't in use in that.

I've got two PreCips in different shades of orange, but usually only pack them as emergency "parkas" in the warmer months. For Winter, prefer the ECWCS parkas for more durable "mobile tents" over merino or synth base layers, fleece and puffy layers.

Have a couple of Marmot softshells in orange that are great for windy, dry days.

I wear the cheapest, softest lightest fl orange vest I can find. I have a couple fleece vests that fit the bill.

I've looked at the Sitka and Kuiu offerings but was real impressed with how soft they were. I do alot of still hunting and want a dead soft fabric.

Bwinters - if I read one of your above post correctly, you have both the Kelvin down and Kelvin lite. What are your thoughts on the two? I have the lite and a 90% jacket for over it but last fall I was glassing in MT on a peak with high winds/snow wearing just the lite. Yes, I could've had the 90% but didn't pack it so I was thinking of going with the Kelvin WS to eliminate another layer. Aside from that one time, the lite as worked well for me but more insulation would maybe eliminate a layer while in a treestand when it in the teens.

I wear an orange mesh vest that might have cost $5 when I bought it many years ago. It's perfect. I want as little interference with my layering as possible while meeting the orange requirement.

Hi Scott,

I do have a Kelvin Lite and Kelvin down hoody - previous version. I wear the Kelvin Lite when temps are in the 30s. The Kelvin down hoody is in another league with respect to warmth and bulk. I really like the Kelvin down hoody when temps drop below 30. I wore the Kelvin down hoody all Pa deer season while stand hunting. It is very warm. I'll likely use the Kelvin down hoody as my insulation during elk sw as soon when temps drop below 30.

As far as eliminating a layer, I think the Kelvin down hoody is your huckleberry, especially for treestand sitting in temps below 30. Be forewarned, you wont want to walk around much when wearing the down hoody. I shot a deer one morning, got down, dressed the deer and began dragging it. I only went 100 yards and was sweating. It was maybe 20 degrees. The other thing is that the down hoody is fairly bulky. It doesnt compress easy.

I picked mine up as a closeout for $200ish which was a smoking deal. The $389 price tag is a bit hard to swallow.

Thanks. I was curious on the compressability. I'm primarily a bowhunter so too much bulk can be bad. I may have to find one locally to see in person. Local shop started carrying Sitka but has limited selection so I'll need to travel a little.

KELVIN DOWN HOODY closeout.
In regards to the Kelvin Down Hoody, I stopped at Scheel's in Eau Claire a couple days ago and they have several 2XL's in grey for $174 less 20% right now. $140!!
The 2xl is BIG. I'm 5-10" and 210 and with my Patagonia Nano Puff and another layer off the rack over the Nano Puff, the Kelvin was still too big for me (and I really wanted it to work due to the price).
All they have on hand at that price is the 2XL.

Mountain Hardwear is a great choice...I apply ReviveX for added moisture repellency. Regains loft quickly after being compressed in pack.

LL bean 850 Down. Versatile, light weight, pack-able ( has a self enclosed pack pocket), if its wet outside throw and light weight shell over it, if it's super cold use it as a mid layer. Catch it on sale.

I was looking at some of the high priced puffey's but ended up buying a down puffy from Cabelas a older one in mint condition off eBay for $50.00 a great deal. I did watch eBay for close to a month to find what I was looking for in the color and size and Mint condition.
I feel for a hunting coat that will end up by some camp fires this is a great way to buy quality clothing at a low price.

Yep. Have done so myself on numerous occasions - especially for clothing that will see significant use/abuse and serve multiple purposes. Have a whole slew of lightweight puffy jackets bought off fleabay and used for everyday running around, camp chores, etc. I'm not wearing my Sitka Kelvin lite to cut firewood......

Just got an Outdoor Research Pertex Quantum with Primaloft as a gift. Haven’t worn it yet as I like my mountain hardware. Anyone have any feedback on this jacket?

I'm sure there's a ton of good info here but,

How about the top 3 contenders?

I' don't have the patience to read this whole thread.

Max price, 300ish?

Packable is a plus, Outerlayer mainly.

Must have decent/good hood,

Warmth is a priority, but I see no Arctic or subzero hunts in the future.

Your requirements don't jive.

But I'll give you three I really like



Total warmth as priority RAB Neutrino Pro

My go to and favorite Arc'teryx Thorium Hoody

Best minimalist Patagonia Down Sweater Hoody Pullover

Runner up Mountain Hardware Phantom

to be more specfic,

Outerlayer, warmth, for when it's time to hunker down for possibly hours.

No pullovers, hood required. No light mid-weight overpriced light jacket that so many of these "technical" jackets are.

Ok take out the Patagonia and there you go, three great Puffies.

This has been one of the best and most informotive threads I’ve ever read.
I am plannng for a late season elk hunt next year (December 2).
Is anyone using a Cabelas mt050 light weight packable rain jacket as their weatherproof layer.
How well would it work, and if so what would be a good insulating layer to wear under it ?

I am not a fan of the MT050

Ok. Would you care to elaborate?

Sure I have had two MT050 jackets. The one you speak of and a heavier one. Both were by no means weatherproof. You also state a late season elk hunt. The light weight packable will not be suitable. Unless you are a hell of a lot more Polar Bear than I am. And I would say I am a good 65% Polar bear.

My MT050 is nice firm or what it is, but it’s hot and heavy. Mostly heavy and the reason I never wear it.

Does weight matter?

Mine has been pretty well waterproof.
I was planning on using this only as a water / Windproof outer layer to be used if needed over other layers.
So why would this not suffice in cold weather ?
What would be a better water proof shell ?

Yes the non-packable MT050 I have is hot and heavy. I used it for tree stand hunting back East.

Maybe I just sweat to much for the MT050 stuff, but mine never kept me dry.

You probably won't like the stuff I use. It's not camo. I would suggest taking a look at Kuiu unless you aren't athletic like me. Although I see they added a XXXL now so maybe that will work for fat azzes like me. According to Kuiu I am not athletic build. I think Jason was just jealous he wasn't built like me. He would have had a better football career if he was. Their stuff is as good as it gets for non-Gore products.

yes it's relevant.

Think outer layer for a few upcoming mountain hunts.

I have that jacket and like it alot for certain purposes, it's a rain coat.

I don't think it enters into the equation on a Dec late hunt.

far better choices else where.

I'm curious, a rain jacket in late season?

you expecting rain, or wind?

So then do you not incorporate a Goretex waterproof shell, or some other waterproof/ Windproof shell into your system ?

sure, love a good windstop layer, but not a rain jacket late season.

I use that jacket in the boat for fishing, open water warmer temps into early fall.

I did pack it in once at 10,000 feet to try to do exactly what you wanted. Colorado Rifle Elk mid October, it was iffy at best, which is why I'm also on this thread looking for options.

I believe there are better windstop outer layer's with more warmth. I don't believe goretex is the best windstopper nor necessary for cold temps with zero chance of rain.

Would it suffice has a do it all, I guess.

I believe windstop breathes better than goretex with both being wind resistant.

Those who think different, feel free to speak up.

I apologize if this has already been posted. I've read this whole thread but it's been a while and dont remember seeing this video of a podcast with Jason Hairston and his take on synthetics vs merino.

https://youtu.be/bGs0cqwJh8E

Curious as to how the folks here think the Kuiu superdown pants would compare to the FL Uncompahgre pants? I have the Uncompahgre pants, but the superdown ultra's are 10 oz lighter.

Windstopper is definitely more breathable and quieter than GoreTex, in my experience. And it shuts the wind down completely.

Anyone have experience with the outdoor research colossus parka?

Last year I did some research and ended up buying the "Tailwind Puffy" from Thlete. It is body mapped with primaloft gold, has a DWR finish, a nice hood, and the camo is effective to boot. They were on sale when I bought mine and it quickly became my favorite go to jacket for hunting late in the year here in PA. Thlete is a fairly small company but a quick search will bring up their web site. I have zero affiliation with them other than really liking their product. It was exactly what I was looking for in a synthetic insulated puffy.

Being somewhat cheap I buy all of my puffies from the local Columbia outlet store. A few have been surprisingly excellent in the sometimes brutally cold Minnesota Winters.

I like the looks of that jacket, except the hideous camo. Bummer they don't offer a solid option. What types of temperatures/layering are you using with it?