I have a friend who teaches concealed carry and a couple of other pistol training classes. I've stopped by a few of his classes to talk about holsters and carry gear and have had the chance to observe his students and what guns they are shooting. I would estimate that about 95% of his students bring semi-autos to the class, particularly the really small ones like the Ruger LCP, S&W Shield and equivalent type guns. Since many are beginning shooters, or at least not Advanced Shooters, they often have trouble even learning how to shoot the semi-autos properly. A good portion of the time in his class you spent talking about tap rack Bang and how to clear a malfunction from my semi-auto. In every single class he has one or two people that have a firearm that schitts the bed or just won't operate well enough for them to get through the class. In that case he provides them with one of his own Glock 19's that he keeps for the class. His so called "advanced" pistol class involves running and gunning and shooting behind barriers and other crap that would be more akin to some Special Forces operator than the regular citizen trying to defend himself. I'm all for people being able to choose and shoot what they want, but I honestly feel that so much of the general population would be better served with a 6-shot revolver than a semi-auto pistol. The manual of arms of a revolver is just so much more simple for someone who is not a professional and has to kick down a door to arrest someone. I have both, and I carry both. Folks just can't seem to get over the issue of only having five or six shots before having to reload.
Many people would be better served with a double action revolver. Increasing numbers of people have decided that they need to be armed with a firearm. Many of those people are arriving at that conclusion for the first time in their lives. The vast majority were not raised on a farm, and do not have military experience, therefore, they have never touched a gun before, and their only knowledge of firearms comes from what they have seen on television. On television, these days, everyone shoots a semi auto. In the real world, all the policemen carry semi autos. The cat behind the counter at the gun shop, and the only "gun guy" they know, or are related to, carries a semi auto. As a result, they figure they need a semi auto, too.
Well, there are problems with this: Females, older folks with arthritis, and younger people with injuries have trouble with slide manipulation, Those same people can have issues getting magazines fully loaded. There are cheat devices that help load mags and force back the slide, or even firearms that feature "EZ" slide manipulation and in some cases, tip up barrels which never need to have the slide retracted. They can help those who are dedicated to learning their firearm.
The alternative is a revolver. Specifically, a double action revolver. Push the slide release forward, downward, or pull it to the rear. Use the fingers of your support hand to apply pressure from right to left. Drop one round into each hole and close cylinder. Need to shoot? Pull the trigger. Still need to shoot? Pull the trigger again. Bad primer? Pull the trigger again. (Tap, rack, re-assess is never this quick in a Semi Auto).
"But 5 or 6 rounds might not be enough!" I get that, and understand completely, but let's be realistic. Only the gun you have on you, when things go $hitty is of use to you. If the only thing you can count on having with you 24/7/365 is a 5 shot J frame, then carry it till you wear the finish off it. On the flip side, if you can carry a full size G17 on the same time frame, then by all means....
I've taught a few CCDW classes, and I have seen a slew of the little 380's and compact 40's, etc. Regardless of gender, I find that folks often have trouble with them. More than that, mostly I honestly believe that a large portion of folks would be better served with a revolver.
... Since many are beginning shooters, or at least not Advanced Shooters, they often have trouble even learning how to shoot the semi-autos properly. A good portion of the time in his class you spent talking about tap rack Bang and how to clear a malfunction from my semi-auto. His so called "advanced" pistol class involves running and gunning and shooting behind barriers and other crap that would be more akin to some Special Forces operator than the regular citizen trying to defend himself. I'm all for people being able to choose and shoot what they want, but I honestly feel that so much of the general population would be better served with a 6-shot revolver than a semi-auto pistol. The manual of arms of a revolver is just so much more simple for someone who is not a professional and has to kick down a door to arrest someone. I have both, and I carry both. Folks just can't seem to get over the issue of only having five or six shots before having to reload.
Any opinions on this?
I've cherry picked a couple of salient points here.
On the revolver vs. semi-auto, a revolver is going to be easier to learn and especially when clearing malfunctions - pull the trigger again. Whether 5-6 shots is enough, too many opinions and too many situations to state unequivocally one way or the other. Most gunfights are still decided in the first 2-3 seconds with just a few shots fired. "Most". As they say, you get the fight you get, not the fight you want.
But the highlighted parts I think are important for Joe and Jane Citizen, not Joe Alphabet Gamer or Joe Hi-speed Lo-Drag. Just MHO but if someone is going to carry concealed I think the greatest amount of training should be spent in drawing quickly and getting that first shot on target. The person who gets the first good hit ups his or her odds of winning the fight tremendously. Second greatest amount of time should be spent on getting the remaining shots on target - and that would certainly include clearing malfunctions. That second guy in the Texas church lost his life fumbling on the draw, the guy who ended the situation drew cleanly and took one good shot.
All of this starting from a high ready like you're third in line of a dynamic entry team really isn't pertinent to a guy going about his business and suddenly confronted with a deadly force situation. And while I sure applaud those folks who run toward the sound of gunfire, there are all kinds of legal and personal reasons to be very circumspect in such a situation. I used to joke that I carried a Kel-Tec P32 only to make loud noises long enough for me to get the hell out of there in the confusion.
I'm not saying don't do any of that tactical stuff, folks who argue in favor of it can come up with a zillion different scenarios where it would be advantageous to have that training; in any case more trigger time and training of any kind don't hurt. And if you are a LEO whose job is to run to the gunfire or a genuine HSLD operator or you want to win at the combat games then go for it.
I just think too much time is spent on the tactical stuff emphasizing scenarios that are less likely to happen for the average citizen carrying concealed versus being able to quickly clear the draw, present and get accurate shots off from a concealed carry.
With revolvers, they'd have to master the DA trigger pull.
...not very hard if the instructor is competent and knows how...but about 95% don't. When I was a NRA Training Councillor a lot of my younger instructor candidates had never even handled let alone shot a DA revolver...
When I teach Basic Pistol courses everyone starts off with a DA revolver...and learns how to shoot it DA. In some of the classes 90% of the students shoot smaller groups DA than SA.
It's also important to master DA revolver shooting because in looking at the most popular semi-autos, their trigger pulls are much like a DA revolver...
I have a friend who teaches concealed carry and a couple of other pistol training classes. I've stopped by a few of his classes to talk about holsters and carry gear and have had the chance to observe his students and what guns they are shooting. I would estimate that about 95% of his students bring semi-autos to the class, particularly the really small ones like the Ruger LCP, S&W Shield and equivalent type guns. Since many are beginning shooters, or at least not Advanced Shooters, they often have trouble even learning how to shoot the semi-autos properly. A good portion of the time in his class you spent talking about tap rack Bang and how to clear a malfunction from my semi-auto. In every single class he has one or two people that have a firearm that schitts the bed or just won't operate well enough for them to get through the class. In that case he provides them with one of his own Glock 19's that he keeps for the class. His so called "advanced" pistol class involves running and gunning and shooting behind barriers and other crap that would be more akin to some Special Forces operator than the regular citizen trying to defend himself. I'm all for people being able to choose and shoot what they want, but I honestly feel that so much of the general population would be better served with a 6-shot revolver than a semi-auto pistol. The manual of arms of a revolver is just so much more simple for someone who is not a professional and has to kick down a door to arrest someone. I have both, and I carry both. Folks just can't seem to get over the issue of only having five or six shots before having to reload.
Any opinions on this?
Yeah, in 99% of gun fights civilians are likely to be involved in, six rounds would work fine, if they are well placed, and they are willing to put in the work to become competent with a double action revolver.
Also, if they want to go with an auto, I'd push them very hard in the direction of something like a Glock 19 or an S&W M&P9 Compact.
With revolvers, they'd have to master the DA trigger pull.
When I teach Basic Pistol courses everyone starts off with a DA revolver...and learns how to shoot it DA. In some of the classes 90% of the students shoot smaller groups DA than SA. Bob
With revolvers, they'd have to master the DA trigger pull.
When I teach Basic Pistol courses everyone starts off with a DA revolver...and learns how to shoot it DA. In some of the classes 90% of the students shoot smaller groups DA than SA. Bob
Great idea. Bob
That's how I learned when I was 19. My NRA instructor (retired Deputy Sheriff) brought a few S&W revolvers to the range, and that was all I shot, and only in double action. The course I took was one on one over like 20 hours of instruction. First was intro to handgun shooting, then Defensive Handgun. I really learned the double action trigger during that training. He had me shooting for most of the hour, and I came to the range and drilled what I learned between classes, too. Not to mention dry fire at home, balancing a quarter on top of my revolver while pulling the trigger.
You don't think reliable midsize semi-auto's such as a G19 address most of your rant? If not, why does you buddy hand them one when their Bersa's fail?
Also I can tell you didn't actually watch the video.
I have a friend who teaches concealed carry and a couple of other pistol training classes. I've stopped by a few of his classes to talk about holsters and carry gear and have had the chance to observe his students and what guns they are shooting. I would estimate that about 95% of his students bring semi-autos to the class, particularly the really small ones like the Ruger LCP, S&W Shield and equivalent type guns. Since many are beginning shooters, or at least not Advanced Shooters, they often have trouble even learning how to shoot the semi-autos properly. A good portion of the time in his class you spent talking about tap rack Bang and how to clear a malfunction from my semi-auto. In every single class he has one or two people that have a firearm that schitts the bed or just won't operate well enough for them to get through the class. In that case he provides them with one of his own Glock 19's that he keeps for the class. His so called "advanced" pistol class involves running and gunning and shooting behind barriers and other crap that would be more akin to some Special Forces operator than the regular citizen trying to defend himself. I'm all for people being able to choose and shoot what they want, but I honestly feel that so much of the general population would be better served with a 6-shot revolver than a semi-auto pistol. The manual of arms of a revolver is just so much more simple for someone who is not a professional and has to kick down a door to arrest someone. I have both, and I carry both. Folks just can't seem to get over the issue of only having five or six shots before having to reload.
Any opinions on this?
Yeah, in 99% of gun fights civilians are likely to be involved in, six rounds would work fine, if they are well placed, and they are willing to put in the work to become competent with a double action revolver.
Also, if they want to go with an auto, I'd push them very hard in the direction of something like a Glock 19 or an S&W M&P9 Compact.
If they are going to "put in the time to become competent", why not skip the technology from the 1800's, and put the time in on something more applicable to today.
I fail to see the si called "advantage" of revolvers infact I see the disadvantage. In my experience revolvers aren't easier to shoot or operate and they aren't more reliable. I'll take a semi auto over a revolver every time. The Sig P365 is small, easy to shoot well and has plenty of magazine capavity
I fail to see the si called "advantage" of revolvers infact I see the disadvantage. In my experience revolvers aren't easier to shoot or operate and they aren't more reliable. I'll take a semi auto over a revolver every time. The Sig P365 is small, easy to shoot well and has plenty of magazine capavity
I fail to see the si called "advantage" of revolvers infact I see the disadvantage. In my experience revolvers aren't easier to shoot or operate and they aren't more reliable. I'll take a semi auto over a revolver every time. The Sig P365 is small, easy to shoot well and has plenty of magazine capavity
NDs with autos often occur because folks think they've unloaded the gun when they haven't.
DA revolvers are much simpler. If you can push the cylinder latch and swing the cylinder out, you can tell if it's loaded or unload it and make it safe. It also requires less manipulation to go from Safe to Ready. Poke the damn thing full of bullets and close the cylinder.
There are lots of people out there who are never going to be 4th degree black belt martial artists with a handgun. In the end it's about familiarity with the gun you have, attaining basic marksmanship skills and having the wherewithal to shoot a SOB to the ground right now when the situation warrants it.
I fail to see the si called "advantage" of revolvers infact I see the disadvantage. In my experience revolvers aren't easier to shoot or operate and they aren't more reliable. I'll take a semi auto over a revolver every time. The Sig P365 is small, easy to shoot well and has plenty of magazine capavity
I don't understand it either.
I also agree. New carriers are also very self conscious about "printing", so a K-frame is out of the question. Most don't practice often enough, and a semi generally has a better trigger than a revolver and is easier to shoot. Working in a gunshop/range, the whole slide manipulation thing is overblown. Most have never been taught the push-pull technique.
I fail to see the si called "advantage" of revolvers infact I see the disadvantage. In my experience revolvers aren't easier to shoot or operate and they aren't more reliable. I'll take a semi auto over a revolver every time. The Sig P365 is small, easy to shoot well and has plenty of magazine capavity
NDs with autos often occur because folks think they've unloaded the gun when they haven't.
DA revolvers are much simpler. If you can push the cylinder latch and swing the cylinder out, you can tell if it's loaded or unload it and make it safe. It also requires less manipulation to go from Safe to Ready. Poke the damn thing full of bullets and close the cylinder.
There are lots of people out there who are never going to be 4th degree black belt martial artists with a handgun. In the end it's about familiarity with the gun you have, attaining basic marksmanship skills and having the wherewithal to shoot a SOB to the ground right now when the situation warrants it.
Hit the magazine release and then rack the slide, not rocket science
I fail to see the si called "advantage" of revolvers infact I see the disadvantage. In my experience revolvers aren't easier to shoot or operate and they aren't more reliable. I'll take a semi auto over a revolver every time. The Sig P365 is small, easy to shoot well and has plenty of magazine capavity
I don't understand it either.
Much simpler manual of arms, and much safer to use for those who will not become shooting enthusiasts.
I fail to see the si called "advantage" of revolvers infact I see the disadvantage. In my experience revolvers aren't easier to shoot or operate and they aren't more reliable. I'll take a semi auto over a revolver every time. The Sig P365 is small, easy to shoot well and has plenty of magazine capavity
NDs with autos often occur because folks think they've unloaded the gun when they haven't.
DA revolvers are much simpler. If you can push the cylinder latch and swing the cylinder out, you can tell if it's loaded or unload it and make it safe. It also requires less manipulation to go from Safe to Ready. Poke the damn thing full of bullets and close the cylinder.
There are lots of people out there who are never going to be 4th degree black belt martial artists with a handgun. In the end it's about familiarity with the gun you have, attaining basic marksmanship skills and having the wherewithal to shoot a SOB to the ground right now when the situation warrants it.
If you can operate a revolver, work a TV remote, or follow a cake recipe you can operate a striker fired pistol.
If you’re still justifying your carry gun with shootings at 6’, you’ve been living under a rock.
The notion that the overwhelming majority of women can’t rack a slide is absurd and parroted by ineffective instructors who don’t know what or how to teach.
I fail to see the si called "advantage" of revolvers infact I see the disadvantage. In my experience revolvers aren't easier to shoot or operate and they aren't more reliable. I'll take a semi auto over a revolver every time. The Sig P365 is small, easy to shoot well and has plenty of magazine capavity
I don't understand it either.
Much simpler manual of arms, and much safer to use for those who will not become shooting enthusiasts.
Since we have quite a few proponents of semi-autos here, let's throw some specifics into the mix: Single action w/ safety, DA/SA, or shoot-a-hole-in-your-thigh striker-fired without safety (except for that silly trigger lever safety)?
Since we have quite a few proponents of semi-autos here, let's throw some specifics into the mix: Single action w/ safety, DA/SA, or shoot-a-hole-in-your-thigh striker-fired without safety (except for that silly trigger lever safety)?
Striker fire semi is just pull the trigger same as a double action revolver. Your shoot "your self in the thigh" arguement doesn't hold water
I have no problem with 1911 style semi's, can shoot double actiln semi's but don't care for them as much as a striker fire semi
Striker fire semi autos dominate police and military use, there is a reason for the dominance
With striker fired autos, you don't have to worry about them cocking the hammer when they shouldn't. We have neophytes renting guns on the range every day. We give them a 10 minute safety/operation briefing and haven't had anyone shoot themselves/others in 12+ years. Very few limpwristing jams, either.
Does a revolver limp wrist jam? I shoot revolvers a lot more than autos, but Ive seen and had autos jam a whole lot more.
I dont trust them to the degree I do revolvers.
They both have their salient points.
I was merely replying to those who said a semi was "too hard" for a beginner to learn. While many here have opinions, very few have dealt with a multitude of new shooters who are not "gun people".
New vehicles are pretty complicated, with dozens of new gadgets over what I learned how to drive in the '80's. Does that mean people should not buy new cars, because there is a learning curve? There are far more lives on the line with new cars than new guns.
Modern semi-autos are very reliable, but not without some faults. In my 54 years of shooting handguns, I've never had an action-stopping jam or dropped magazine from any of my revolvers. I just wish my revolvers held as many rounds as my semi-auto CZ's and Sigs hold.
...I've never had an action-stopping jam from any ... revolvers.
Then you don't shoot enough. It can, and does happen, and when it does, there is generally no fresh mag, rack and tap fixes.
I don't shoot enough? Typically between 2,500-3,000 rounds per year of handgun ammo. Another 2,000+ rounds per year of .223 in service rifle competitions alone, not including training. So, just how many rounds does it take to convince me that revolvers aren't more reliable than semi-autos?
Modern semi-autos are very reliable, but not without some faults. In my 54 years of shooting handguns, I've never had an action-stopping jam or dropped magazine from any of my revolvers. I just wish my revolvers held as many rounds as my semi-auto CZ's and Sigs hold.
Police and military all left revolvers for semi autos. The semi is superior for self defense use. I have experienced revolver failure when the trigger on my Redhawk would not rebound on a fly in hunt in Alaska. Fire a round and then pull the trigger forward. A semi is flatter and easier to carry IWB and faster reloads as well as more capacity
5, just 5. I shot a match with a J frame and when doing a reload, a grain of powder got under the extractor and the gun was out of commission. Only happened once but nearly everyone there knew exactly what happened so it wasn't the first time...
I like and carry both revolvers and autos. I don't understand all the "mine is better than yours" mentality around here. They both work, they both fail, they both are capable of shooting an idiot in the foot but that's not the guns fault. I traded for a 640-1 once because the guy said he was searching his house one night and it went off. For those that don't know, a 640-1 is a DAO J frame.
Buy one or both and learn the thing, practice with it and don't be an idiot. There is no wrong gun.
New vehicles are pretty complicated, with dozens of new gadgets over what I learned how to drive in the '80's. Does that mean people should not buy new cars, because there is a learning curve? There are far more lives on the line with new cars than new guns.
Modern semi-autos are very reliable, but not without some faults. In my 54 years of shooting handguns, I've never had an action-stopping jam or dropped magazine from any of my revolvers. I just wish my revolvers held as many rounds as my semi-auto CZ's and Sigs hold.
Folks just can't seem to get over the issue of only having five or six shots before having to reload.
Any opinions on this?
It's a fact they were trained by watching tv shows created by Hollywood. Just a carry over from non stop programming of disinformation by people whose reality is biased. Every cop and Gov't agent show on tv is programmed in their shooting segments as multiple shots or mag dumps for dramatic effect. Why do you think those who watch tv have anything but distorted reality? Personally I am glad as their are enough people pursuing vintage SW's as is quit rocking the boat. MB
Modern semi-autos are very reliable, but not without some faults. In my 54 years of shooting handguns, I've never had an action-stopping jam or dropped magazine from any of my revolvers. I just wish my revolvers held as many rounds as my semi-auto CZ's and Sigs hold.
Oh brother.
Is there a problem with what I said? If there is, enlighten me.
You dont, and I dont recommend it, but lets face it, TONS do.
Heck, some even carry with it.
A swelled case in a wheelgun still gives one 4 or 5 more rounds before its worthless.
Maybe... Or maybe that swelled case pushes the primer or case head back tight against the recoil shield. If that happens your shooting experience stops immediately until you can knock the cylinder open and rap on the extraction rod hard enough to clear the cylinder. Sometimes that requires more than a palm strike and you need a rawhide mallet or something similar to get the situation sorted out. Better not bend the extraction rod or spring the crane while sorting the issue out. If you do the revolver is out of service until gunsmithing type attention fixes it. No fun! Wheel guns have troubles too and often a revolvers breakdown isn't as easily fixed as a tap, rack, bang drill for a semi auto. If a semi auto chokes tap, rack, bang or simply reloading the gun solves nearly all it's fixable malfunctions.
You dont, and I dont recommend it, but lets face it, TONS do.
Heck, some even carry with it.
A swelled case in a wheelgun still gives one 4 or 5 more rounds before its worthless.
Maybe... Or maybe that swelled case pushes the primer or case head back tight against the recoil shield. If that happens your shooting experience stops immediately until you can knock the cylinder open and rap on the extraction rod hard enough to clear the cylinder. Sometimes that requires more than a palm strike and you need a rawhide mallet or something similar to get the situation sorted out. Better not bend the extraction rod or spring the crane while sorting the issue out. If you do the revolver is out of service until gunsmithing type attention fixes it. No fun! Wheel guns have troubles too and often a revolvers breakdown isn't as easily fixed as a tap, rack, bang drill for a semi auto. If a semi auto chokes tap, rack, bang or simply reloading the gun solves nearly all it's fixable malfunctions.
The new, inexperienced shooters that I referred to in my original post are not likely to be shooting any kind of ammo with swelled cases. They're a 50 year old woman purchasing her first gun and buying ammo at the counter at the local gun store, not shooting reloads. Those same people aren't likely to need a high-capacity Glock with lots of rounds. A revolver should suit them just fine.
I started this post talking about new and inexperienced gun owners and folks and immediately went to, "well, the Glock and similar guns are good enough for the military and police". Yep, yes they are. So are M16's and handcuffs.
Well, I'll put on a blindfold and foxtrot in this minefield. You guys are just rehashing the same arguments about revolvers vs. semi-autos that have been going on for decades and like folks are wont to do pulling arguments from the small ends of the bell curve and/or citing scenarios that have nothing to do with the OP which is about concealed carry and the cheaper, smaller autos.
Semi-autos used to be more unreliable than most of them are today. Most of that was ammo related where they would only feed round nose FMJ or ammo had to be within certain minimum and maximum lengths, the rest of that was environmental where dirt or foreign matter jammed the action. Semi-autos that were unreliable just by crappy design were fairly rare. A lot of that has been fixed. The modern striker fired pistols from any decent manufacturer are amazingly reliable, owners of P-35's and 1911's from a few decades ago probably wouldn't believe how reliable they are.
Revolvers are more prone to jamming from exterior factors, that's why modern armies no longer drag Webleys and 1917's through the mud. Ammo related problems can tie up a revolver but those are really few and far between, almost all ammo related problems in a revolver can be solved by pulling the trigger.
Semi-autos do hold more rounds (at least the larger ones) and are easier and quicker to reload. As a wise man said, nobody who has gone through a gun fight ever wanted smaller or fewer bullets.
Ammo can jam a semi-auto and it takes longer to clear a simple failure to fire than it does to pull the trigger on a revolver. Failures to feed can tie up an automatic in several different ways and can sometimes be as problematic as dirt in a revolver. But given good ammo modern semi-autos are extremely reliable.
Revolvers are easier for Dockers Dads and Soccer Moms to learn to use. I didn't say shoot accurately, I said easier to learn to use. You guys keep expecting everybody to take up your personal hobby. The folks buying guns these days are not gun people and the vast majority of them never will be. The manual of arms for a revolver is easier to understand than the manual for a semi-auto and that's just a fact. You can argue that all day but see the first two sentences here. A supposedly trained cop in Dania, FL killed a woman in the police station because he took the magazine out of his pistol and pulled the trigger. Even after training he thought that if the magazine was out then the gun was unloaded. Another cop thought that once the magazine was in that meant the gun was fully loaded. Insert magazine, gun loaded, pull trigger. Yeah, I know, "cops are the worst". But if trained officers who have to undergo repeated training can't figure out a pistol why do you expect Joe or Jane Average Citizen to do any better? There are no magazine disconnects on revolvers, they aren't needed. (and don't tell me you can't pull the trigger on a revolver when the cylinder is opened and then think you're smart for pointing this out)
Here's my opinion and fully worth any of the other 8 billion opinions on this planet.
Get a Glock 19 or Smith M&P 2.0 Compact or Sig Compact and some good quality ammo, they won't let you down. 1. Learn how to load and unload it properly. 2. Learn how to load and unload it properly. 3. Learn how to load unload it properly. 4. Keep it loaded and don't touch it. If someone is not going to take the time to do steps 1, 2, and 3 then get a revolver and go on to step 4.
If someone wants to take the time to get better in accuracy, handling, all the ways that one can get "better" then you are old enough to make up your own mind on which one to use.
New vehicles are pretty complicated, with dozens of new gadgets over what I learned how to drive in the '80's. Does that mean people should not buy new cars, because there is a learning curve? There are far more lives on the line with new cars than new guns.
Logic is confusing to most, I know. Try to do your best.
Well, I'll put on a blindfold and foxtrot in this minefield. You guys are just rehashing the same arguments about revolvers vs. semi-autos that have been going on for decades and like folks are wont to do pulling arguments from the small ends of the bell curve and/or citing scenarios that have nothing to do with the OP which is about concealed carry and the cheaper, smaller autos.
Semi-autos used to be unreliable, most of that was ammo related where they would only feed round nose FMJ or ammo had to be within certain minimum and maximum lengths, the rest of that was environmental where dirt or foreign matter jammed the action. Semi-autos that were unreliable just by crappy design were fairly rare. A lot of that has been fixed. The modern striker fired pistols from any decent manufacturer are amazingly reliable, owners of P-35's and 1911's from 30-40 years ago probably wouldn't believe how reliable they are.
Revolvers are more prone to jamming from exterior factors, that's why modern armies no longer drag Webleys and 1917's through the mud. Ammo related problems can tie up a revolver but those are really few and far between, almost all ammo related problems in a revolver can be solved by pulling the trigger.
Semi-autos do hold more rounds (at least the larger ones) and are easier and quicker to reload. As a wise man said, nobody who has gone through a gun fight ever wanted smaller or fewer bullets.
Ammo can jam a semi-auto and it takes longer to clear a simple failure to fire than it does to pull the trigger on a revolver. Failures to feed can tie up an automatic in several different ways and can sometimes be as problematic as dirt in a revolver. But given good ammo modern semi-autos are extremely reliable.
Revolvers are easier for Dockers Dads and Soccer Moms to learn to use and they are safer. I didn't say shoot accurately, I said easier to learn to use. You guys keep expecting everybody to take up your personal hobby. The folks buying guns these days are not gun people and 90% or more of them never will be. The manual of arms for a revolver is easier to understand than the manual for a semi-auto and that's just a fact. You can argue that all day but see the first two sentences here. A supposedly trained cop in Dania, FL killed a woman in the police station because he took the magazine out of his pistol and pulled the trigger. Even after training he thought that if the magazine was out then the gun was unloaded. Another cop thought that once the magazine was in that meant the gun was fully loaded. Insert magazine, gun loaded, pull trigger. Yeah, I know, "cops are the worst". But if trained officers who have to undergo repeated training can't figure out a pistol why do you expect Joe or Jane Average Citizen to do any better? There are no magazine disconnects on revolvers, they aren't needed.
Here's my opinion and fully worth any of the other 8 billion opinions on this planet.
Get a Glock 19 or Smith M&P 2.0 Compact or Sig Compact and some good quality ammo, they won't let you down. 1. Learn how to load and unload it properly. 2. Learn how to load and unload it properly. 3. Learn how to load unload it properly. 4. Keep it loaded and don't touch it. If someone is not going to take the time to do steps 1, 2, and 3 then get a revolver and go on to step 4.
If someone wants to take the time to get better in accuracy, handling, all the ways that one can get 'better" then you are old enough to make up your own mind on which one to use.
Damn, a voice of reason. Thanks for your insight, Jim.
...I've never had an action-stopping jam from any ... revolvers.
Then you don't shoot enough. It can, and does happen, and when it does, there is generally no fresh mag, rack and tap fixes.
Yep, if the ejector rod unscrews itself (happens often enough on older Smiths, for example) that gun is locked up good and tight until you can screw the ejector rod back in (no easy task). Smith changed the direction of the ejector rod threading to fix that, but it was a thing.
Another point...non gun people perceive revolvers as old fashioned and don't want them. If you talk someone into something that they don't like, they're never going to practice with it .
New vehicles are pretty complicated, with dozens of new gadgets over what I learned how to drive in the '80's. Does that mean people should not buy new cars, because there is a learning curve? There are far more lives on the line with new cars than new guns.
Logic is confusing to most, I know. Try to do your best.
I can understand why someone who doesn't do a lot of shooting, doesn't want to spend the time to feel comfortable with operating a semiauto and doesn't do concealed carry would choose a revolver for home defense but can't understand choosing one otherwise.
Anyone questioning the advantage of faster reloading and large capacity magazines should look up the Newhall Incident. 50 years ago two career criminals with plenty of firepower quickly killed four California Highway Patrol Officers armed with revolvers. Another incident where firepower and plenty of ammo were a factor was the Miami/Dade FBI shootout in 1986 that resulted in Two FBI agents dead and five wounded.
I can understand why someone who doesn't do a lot of shooting, doesn't want to spend the time to feel comfortable with operating a semiauto and doesn't do concealed carry would choose a revolver for home defense but can't understand choosing one otherwise.
Anyone questioning the advantage of faster reloading and large capacity magazines should look up the Newhall Incident. 50 years ago two career criminals with plenty of firepower quickly killed four California Highway Patrol Officers armed with revolvers. Another incident where firepower and plenty of ammo were a factor was the Miami/Dade FBI shootout in 1986 that resulted in Two FBI agents dead and five wounded.
Not all shooting is for self defense, a lot of us just like to shoot, period. Tin cans, critters, plinking in general. Revolvers are a lot of fun. Nothing wrong with them at all, except in some folks' minds.
I can understand why someone who doesn't do a lot of shooting, doesn't want to spend the time to feel comfortable with operating a semiauto and doesn't do concealed carry would choose a revolver for home defense but can't understand choosing one otherwise.
Anyone questioning the advantage of faster reloading and large capacity magazines should look up the Newhall Incident. 50 years ago two career criminals with plenty of firepower quickly killed four California Highway Patrol Officers armed with revolvers. Another incident where firepower and plenty of ammo were a factor was the Miami/Dade FBI shootout in 1986 that resulted in Two FBI agents dead and five wounded.
Not all shooting is for self defense, a lot of us just like to shoot, period. Tin cans, critters, plinking in general. Revolvers are a lot of fun. Nothing wrong with them at all, except in some folks' minds.
I own a revolver but I don't think that is what the OP was referencing.
Anyone questioning the advantage of faster reloading and large capacity magazines should look up the Newhall Incident. 50 years ago two career criminals with plenty of firepower quickly killed four California Highway Patrol Officers armed with revolvers. Another incident where firepower and plenty of ammo were a factor was the Miami/Dade FBI shootout in 1986 that resulted in Two FBI agents dead and five wounded.
Go back and read Idaho Jim's response. No one is questioning the advantage of faster reloading.
Well, I'll put on a blindfold and foxtrot in this minefield. You guys are just rehashing the same arguments about revolvers vs. semi-autos that have been going on for decades and like folks are wont to do pulling arguments from the small ends of the bell curve and/or citing scenarios that have nothing to do with the OP which is about concealed carry and the cheaper, smaller autos.
Semi-autos used to be unreliable, most of that was ammo related where they would only feed round nose FMJ or ammo had to be within certain minimum and maximum lengths, the rest of that was environmental where dirt or foreign matter jammed the action. Semi-autos that were unreliable just by crappy design were fairly rare. A lot of that has been fixed. The modern striker fired pistols from any decent manufacturer are amazingly reliable, owners of P-35's and 1911's from 30-40 years ago probably wouldn't believe how reliable they are.
Revolvers are more prone to jamming from exterior factors, that's why modern armies no longer drag Webleys and 1917's through the mud. Ammo related problems can tie up a revolver but those are really few and far between, almost all ammo related problems in a revolver can be solved by pulling the trigger.
Semi-autos do hold more rounds (at least the larger ones) and are easier and quicker to reload. As a wise man said, nobody who has gone through a gun fight ever wanted smaller or fewer bullets.
Ammo can jam a semi-auto and it takes longer to clear a simple failure to fire than it does to pull the trigger on a revolver. Failures to feed can tie up an automatic in several different ways and can sometimes be as problematic as dirt in a revolver. But given good ammo modern semi-autos are extremely reliable.
Revolvers are easier for Dockers Dads and Soccer Moms to learn to use and they are safer. I didn't say shoot accurately, I said easier to learn to use. You guys keep expecting everybody to take up your personal hobby. The folks buying guns these days are not gun people and 90% or more of them never will be. The manual of arms for a revolver is easier to understand than the manual for a semi-auto and that's just a fact. You can argue that all day but see the first two sentences here. A supposedly trained cop in Dania, FL killed a woman in the police station because he took the magazine out of his pistol and pulled the trigger. Even after training he thought that if the magazine was out then the gun was unloaded. Another cop thought that once the magazine was in that meant the gun was fully loaded. Insert magazine, gun loaded, pull trigger. Yeah, I know, "cops are the worst". But if trained officers who have to undergo repeated training can't figure out a pistol why do you expect Joe or Jane Average Citizen to do any better? There are no magazine disconnects on revolvers, they aren't needed.
Here's my opinion and fully worth any of the other 8 billion opinions on this planet.
Get a Glock 19 or Smith M&P 2.0 Compact or Sig Compact and some good quality ammo, they won't let you down. 1. Learn how to load and unload it properly. 2. Learn how to load and unload it properly. 3. Learn how to load unload it properly. 4. Keep it loaded and don't touch it. If someone is not going to take the time to do steps 1, 2, and 3 then get a revolver and go on to step 4.
If someone wants to take the time to get better in accuracy, handling, all the ways that one can get 'better" then you are old enough to make up your own mind on which one to use.
Damn, a voice of reason. Thanks for your insight, Jim.
I agree with you that revolvers are the best choice for some people, which I said in the first paragraph of my post. I own and shoot a couple myself. I didn't say or intend to say that you or anyone on the thread was questioning the advantage of faster reloading but after re reading my post I could have phrased it better.
Well, I'll put on a blindfold and foxtrot in this minefield. You guys are just rehashing the same arguments about revolvers vs. semi-autos that have been going on for decades and like folks are wont to do pulling arguments from the small ends of the bell curve and/or citing scenarios that have nothing to do with the OP which is about concealed carry and the cheaper, smaller autos.
Semi-autos used to be unreliable, most of that was ammo related where they would only feed round nose FMJ or ammo had to be within certain minimum and maximum lengths, the rest of that was environmental where dirt or foreign matter jammed the action. Semi-autos that were unreliable just by crappy design were fairly rare. A lot of that has been fixed. The modern striker fired pistols from any decent manufacturer are amazingly reliable, owners of P-35's and 1911's from 30-40 years ago probably wouldn't believe how reliable they are.
Revolvers are more prone to jamming from exterior factors, that's why modern armies no longer drag Webleys and 1917's through the mud. Ammo related problems can tie up a revolver but those are really few and far between, almost all ammo related problems in a revolver can be solved by pulling the trigger.
Semi-autos do hold more rounds (at least the larger ones) and are easier and quicker to reload. As a wise man said, nobody who has gone through a gun fight ever wanted smaller or fewer bullets.
Ammo can jam a semi-auto and it takes longer to clear a simple failure to fire than it does to pull the trigger on a revolver. Failures to feed can tie up an automatic in several different ways and can sometimes be as problematic as dirt in a revolver. But given good ammo modern semi-autos are extremely reliable.
Revolvers are easier for Dockers Dads and Soccer Moms to learn to use and they are safer. I didn't say shoot accurately, I said easier to learn to use. You guys keep expecting everybody to take up your personal hobby. The folks buying guns these days are not gun people and 90% or more of them never will be. The manual of arms for a revolver is easier to understand than the manual for a semi-auto and that's just a fact. You can argue that all day but see the first two sentences here. A supposedly trained cop in Dania, FL killed a woman in the police station because he took the magazine out of his pistol and pulled the trigger. Even after training he thought that if the magazine was out then the gun was unloaded. Another cop thought that once the magazine was in that meant the gun was fully loaded. Insert magazine, gun loaded, pull trigger. Yeah, I know, "cops are the worst". But if trained officers who have to undergo repeated training can't figure out a pistol why do you expect Joe or Jane Average Citizen to do any better? There are no magazine disconnects on revolvers, they aren't needed.
Here's my opinion and fully worth any of the other 8 billion opinions on this planet.
Get a Glock 19 or Smith M&P 2.0 Compact or Sig Compact and some good quality ammo, they won't let you down. 1. Learn how to load and unload it properly. 2. Learn how to load and unload it properly. 3. Learn how to load unload it properly. 4. Keep it loaded and don't touch it. If someone is not going to take the time to do steps 1, 2, and 3 then get a revolver and go on to step 4.
If someone wants to take the time to get better in accuracy, handling, all the ways that one can get 'better" then you are old enough to make up your own mind on which one to use.
Damn, a voice of reason. Thanks for your insight, Jim.
Who's conclusion starts with:
Get a Glock 19 or Smith M&P 2.0
Yes, but it was a well-reasoned discussion, unlike your snarky-assed, short comments that have offered no appreciable contribution to the discussion.
I agree with you that revolvers are the best choice for some people, which I said in the first paragraph of my post. I own and shoot a couple myself. I didn't say or intend to say that you or anyone on the thread was questioning the advantage of faster reloading but after re reading my post I could have phrased it better.
Understood. Thanks.
Even if revolvers aren't the best choices for some of these newbies, I've witnessed a lot of "training" of beginners that appeared to be more akin to teaching someone how to participate in an all-out gunfight rather than the basics of self defense and how to protect themselves in the parking lot at the grocery store.
Well, I'll put on a blindfold and foxtrot in this minefield. You guys are just rehashing the same arguments about revolvers vs. semi-autos that have been going on for decades and like folks are wont to do pulling arguments from the small ends of the bell curve and/or citing scenarios that have nothing to do with the OP which is about concealed carry and the cheaper, smaller autos.
Semi-autos used to be unreliable, most of that was ammo related where they would only feed round nose FMJ or ammo had to be within certain minimum and maximum lengths, the rest of that was environmental where dirt or foreign matter jammed the action. Semi-autos that were unreliable just by crappy design were fairly rare. A lot of that has been fixed. The modern striker fired pistols from any decent manufacturer are amazingly reliable, owners of P-35's and 1911's from 30-40 years ago probably wouldn't believe how reliable they are.
Revolvers are more prone to jamming from exterior factors, that's why modern armies no longer drag Webleys and 1917's through the mud. Ammo related problems can tie up a revolver but those are really few and far between, almost all ammo related problems in a revolver can be solved by pulling the trigger.
Semi-autos do hold more rounds (at least the larger ones) and are easier and quicker to reload. As a wise man said, nobody who has gone through a gun fight ever wanted smaller or fewer bullets.
Ammo can jam a semi-auto and it takes longer to clear a simple failure to fire than it does to pull the trigger on a revolver. Failures to feed can tie up an automatic in several different ways and can sometimes be as problematic as dirt in a revolver. But given good ammo modern semi-autos are extremely reliable.
Revolvers are easier for Dockers Dads and Soccer Moms to learn to use and they are safer. I didn't say shoot accurately, I said easier to learn to use. You guys keep expecting everybody to take up your personal hobby. The folks buying guns these days are not gun people and 90% or more of them never will be. The manual of arms for a revolver is easier to understand than the manual for a semi-auto and that's just a fact. You can argue that all day but see the first two sentences here. A supposedly trained cop in Dania, FL killed a woman in the police station because he took the magazine out of his pistol and pulled the trigger. Even after training he thought that if the magazine was out then the gun was unloaded. Another cop thought that once the magazine was in that meant the gun was fully loaded. Insert magazine, gun loaded, pull trigger. Yeah, I know, "cops are the worst". But if trained officers who have to undergo repeated training can't figure out a pistol why do you expect Joe or Jane Average Citizen to do any better? There are no magazine disconnects on revolvers, they aren't needed.
Here's my opinion and fully worth any of the other 8 billion opinions on this planet.
Get a Glock 19 or Smith M&P 2.0 Compact or Sig Compact and some good quality ammo, they won't let you down. 1. Learn how to load and unload it properly. 2. Learn how to load and unload it properly. 3. Learn how to load unload it properly. 4. Keep it loaded and don't touch it. If someone is not going to take the time to do steps 1, 2, and 3 then get a revolver and go on to step 4.
If someone wants to take the time to get better in accuracy, handling, all the ways that one can get 'better" then you are old enough to make up your own mind on which one to use.
Damn, a voice of reason. Thanks for your insight, Jim.
Who's conclusion starts with:
Get a Glock 19 or Smith M&P 2.0
Yes, but it was a well-reasoned discussion, unlike your snarky-assed, short comments that have offered no appreciable contribution to the discussion.
You answered your own question in your own rant, so I gave your old guy rant exactly what it deserved.
You dont, and I dont recommend it, but lets face it, TONS do.
Heck, some even carry with it.
A swelled case in a wheelgun still gives one 4 or 5 more rounds before its worthless.
Maybe... Or maybe that swelled case pushes the primer or case head back tight against the recoil shield. If that happens your shooting experience stops immediately until you can knock the cylinder open and rap on the extraction rod hard enough to clear the cylinder. Sometimes that requires more than a palm strike and you need a rawhide mallet or something similar to get the situation sorted out. Better not bend the extraction rod or spring the crane while sorting the issue out. If you do the revolver is out of service until gunsmithing type attention fixes it. No fun! Wheel guns have troubles too and often a revolvers breakdown isn't as easily fixed as a tap, rack, bang drill for a semi auto. If a semi auto chokes tap, rack, bang or simply reloading the gun solves nearly all it's fixable malfunctions.
The new, inexperienced shooters that I referred to in my original post are not likely to be shooting any kind of ammo with swelled cases. They're a 50 year old woman purchasing her first gun and buying ammo at the counter at the local gun store, not shooting reloads. Those same people aren't likely to need a high-capacity Glock with lots of rounds. A revolver should suit them just fine.
I started this post talking about new and inexperienced gun owners and folks and immediately went to, "well, the Glock and similar guns are good enough for the military and police". Yep, yes they are. So are M16's and handcuffs.
I was menthioning steel cased ammo, not reloads. Tula, Wolf, Winchester. And its a good chance the novice is going to run some in an auto.
The only wheelie Ive seen tied up in the described fashion was a 22 Jet and someone who failed to charge a case, not that it doesnt or cant happen.
Lady couple counties over popped two pitbulls with..."Glad my $129.00 HiPoint was handy it worked." Look poor people are people too no it's not pretty or fitted like a Nighthawk but that HiPoint probably saved her life. I use a Mossberg Mc1sc myself and I'm well pleased.
This thread is hilarious to me, because IIRC several years ago I was scorned by the majority in a thread here on this forum for suggesting that maybe new shooters should be trained first with an auto, partly because modern autos were arguably just as reliable and partly because they are easier to shoot well. I still hold to that opinion. Nice to see more now appear willing to accept it.
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
And if people are carrying Shields and LCPs, they’ve already accepted only having 5-6 rounds. There’s gotta be another reason for choosing a revolver.
I'll give you two. A revolver requires no confirmation of reliability with untested factory loads. It's not a common issue these days, but we still mostly recommend a chosen carry round to undergo the usual "200 rounds with no malfunction". And sometimes during ammo shortages, 38 spl is the only thing on the shelf.
Doesn't normally apply to you, me, or anyone else who takes gun carrying seriously - but those are legitimate reasons for some.
The problem with most instructors is that come in with the preconceived notion that because it works for them it has to work for everybody...and that isn't only talking about guns, but about stance, grip, kind of sight, holster...
Most "instructors"(not) just let students keep shooting and shooting until they get it right....most never do. LE instructors, most of whom aren't much more than a range officer, just have an officer who fails qualification keep shooting time after time till they make it...why, because they have no clue how to analyze what the officer is doing wrong and show the officer how to correct it.
As to guns, between what I have and my friends will let me borrow, there isn't much one of my students can't try before they invest. I don't steer a person in any direction... The guns will disqualify themselves as too big, too small, too complicated, too much recoil and so on...
Just started last Saturday with two young couples two of whom are the children of two of my students from 15 years ago. They have already purchased their guns and made pretty sound choices...now it is up to me to optimize their choices...but they will learn the basics on a .22 revolver...
The problem with most instructors is that come in with the preconceived notion that because it works for them it has to work for everybody...and that isn't only talking about guns, but about stance, grip, kind of sight, holster...
Most "instructors"(not) just let students keep shooting and shooting until they get it right....most never do. LE instructors, most of whom aren't much more than a range officer, just have an officer who fails qualification keep shooting time after time till they make it...why, because they have no clue how to analyze what the officer is doing wrong and show the officer how to correct it.
As to guns, between what I have and my friends will let me borrow, there isn't much one of my students can't try before they invest. I don't steer a person in any direction... The guns will disqualify themselves as too big, too small, too complicated, too much recoil and so on...
Just started last Saturday with two young couples two of whom are the children of two of my students from 15 years ago. They have already purchased their guns and made pretty sound choices...now it is up to me to optimize their choices...but they will learn the basics on a .22 revolver...
Bob
Good insight, Bob. Having worked with the US Army Marksmanship Unit taught me the importance of having an instructor who can properly analyze what's causing an individual to shoot poorly and help correct it in a way that works for THAT individual.
I can't comment on what current instructor schools are doing. I can tell you that for the past 30 years, the better law enforcement firearms instructor development schools included shooter error diagnosis and correction as part of their curriculum. If you can't do that, you're not an instructor at all.
And I'll agree with the comments that the instructor has to take into account an individual's strengths and weaknesses when sorting out a problem. There are no one-size-fits-all Solutions
There actually is a right way to hold a gun. There actually are better holsters and better sighting systems. There are outliers in anything. But there are ways to stand and hold a gun and look at a gun and handle a gun that work for 99.9% of the population, barring some bizarre physical deformity or disability.
A good instructor doesn't walk up to each student wondering what will work for them, because "do what works for you". A good instructor wastes his life away figuring out what's best so his students can skip to (near) the top of the mountain he had to climb without all that effort and heartache.
I've trained with some of the objectively best shooters on the planet and when it comes to how to stand, hold the gun, what sights to put on the gun, and how to look at those sights, they all agree. And it's not just wrong, it's irresponsible to tell Billy Bob from down the street that whatever crazy thing he came up is likely as good as what the best on the planet are doing.
When the shooter chooses the proper tools for the job/mission, never violates safety rules and never misses the target at selected distances...*then* the "instructor" becomes superfluous.
There actually is a right way to hold a gun. There actually are better holsters and better sighting systems. There are outliers in anything. But there are ways to stand and hold a gun and look at a gun and handle a gun that work for 99.9% of the population, barring some bizarre physical deformity or disability.
A good instructor doesn't walk up to each student wondering what will work for them, because "do what works for you". A good instructor wastes his life away figuring out what's best so his students can skip to (near) the top of the mountain he had to climb without all that effort and heartache.
I've trained with some of the objectively best shooters on the planet and when it comes to how to stand, hold the gun, what sights to put on the gun, and how to look at those sights, they all agree. And it's not just wrong, it's irresponsible to tell Billy Bob from down the street that whatever crazy thing he came up is likely as good as what the best on the planet are doing.
That is the question...are you an NRA Certified Instructor...
My number is 17929XXX...I know it by heart as I have put it on 1000+ certificates. I used to belong to a club that ran 4-5 Basic Pistol, 2 Basic Shotgun, 2 Personal Protection, one Basic Rifle and 2-3 Home Firearms Safety classes a year. 10-20 students per class. I was at every class except for some of the Basic Shotgun and Home Firearms Safety classes....
I was also a NRA Training Counselor for 8 years certifying instructors for the NRA...
In addition I ran 4-5 tactical shooting sessions a month from 1993 to 2013 at the same club and still run 6-8 classes a year to advanced students at a private range.
At another club I ran a women's only day long rifle/pistol/shotgun class every summer for 13 years...
Just started four new pistol shooters last Saturday...
No, I’m not. In fact, the notion that “NRA Instructor” is your standard is pretty amusing.
So I guess it would be good to do this. I’ll start working on my shooting related CV. You’re welcome to do the same and we’ll all meet here again this afternoon to measure cyber dicks.
MO...with all due respect sir, we are talking about Basic firearms instruction, not advanced combat classes.
Ever been to the world class SIG Academy? The head of the Academy when it started out was Bank Miller...a friend of mine. I've taken the week long Tactical Pistol Instructor Course (Instructor level course to teach instructors how to transition officers from revolvers to semi-autos), Low Light Firing Course and their two day ammunition effectiveness class.
Over the years I had several of their Basic Pistol Students take the NRA BP Course...I noted that none of them were very good shots initially. One of the at the time "older" couples came up to me as raved that they could not believe they "had their own instructors" while on the line...I thought this was "odd". A few years later I found out why he had made this statement...
In 2013 one of my beginning tactical students opened Granite State Range in Hudson, NH. He wanted me to be his head of training and while I would have loved to take the job it was an hour and fourtyfive minute drive from my house and I didn't want to move to that area of the state. So instead I interviewed candidates for the position for him.
One of the guys was a sergeant for a local PD who was their chief firearms instructor and just happened to be an instructor at SIG on those weekends when all their big name instructors were off representing the company at shoots or trade shows. So I ask about the classes...9-16 students...he does all the classroom work... On the range...if they have over 10 students he gets an assistant!!!!! 10/1 student/instructor ratio... And that's why none of their people who came to my classes could shoot to the $150 they paid for the SIG class...
And it hasn't changed. Two summers ago a friend who helped out on the line at the clubs courses took his two daughters to SIG for their Basic class... On the range..9 students, one instructor. And the guns for these new students many of whom had never fired a handgun before... 9mm SIG pistols....shot about 50 rounds....really... Three hours in the classroom and three on the range. What they were taught was how to safely make noise... At $150 a piece.
The NRA classes...1/1 on line instruction. 100-150 rounds of .22 ammo and another 50 rounds of centerfire over the course of two days/16 hours for a whole $75.00.
Hope other big name academies are a little better....
There must be different types of NRA Instructors. All the ones at our club walk around with all their pretty patches on their vests but never teach anything.
Would have to disagree Hawk... Without getting the fundamentals of any skill down all the practice in the world is useless... It's like a house...you have an inadequate or faulty foundation and one day the house falls down.
Had a guy came to me about midpoint of the shooting part of a BP class. He was probably about 60 and said to me "I've been shooting for over 40 years and I have never shot groups like this in my entire life..." Because he simply kept doing the same thing wrong over and over again... I see it every time I go to the range.
Are there those people who can self teach and get better...absolutely. But they are the minority...
No, I’m not. In fact, the notion that “NRA Instructor” is your standard is pretty amusing.
So I guess it would be good to do this. I’ll start working on my shooting related CV. You’re welcome to do the same and we’ll all meet here again this afternoon to measure cyber dicks.
To Blue and JWP....not to get into it with you guys, again, but was just wondering...
Are you NRA certified instructors?
How many FORMAL certified classes have you been chief instructor for, done the classroom instruction or been on the line as an instructor...
Just wondering...Bob
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
No, we don't don't want to travel down that road - we can stop at "are you an NRA certified instructor?"
Originally Posted by RJM
That is the question...are you an NRA Certified Instructor...
Here goes, not that any of it will actually make any difference to you. I'm sure you'll have some arbitrary checkbox that I haven't checked that makes all the difference to you.
No, I'm not an NRA instructor. I looked up the course a few minutes ago (http://www.nrainstructors.org/Instr...24B57BFE0A018DDB1CE3Q/TCPistol061517.pdf). It looks like the 16 hour pistol instructor course requires a pre-qualification test. A USPSA "C" classification will suffice, or you have to accumulate 80 points on an evaluation....and you get 30 of those points by successfully loading and unloading. As I said earlier, it's humorous to find that as your litmus test.
As for your questions....
I'm a TCOLE certified instructor and firearms instructor and have been for over 15 years. I currently work as a full time firearms instructor for a large municipal police agency. I have received training in, and practically applied training in the field, as an EMT, in tactical medicine, precision rifle, mid-range carbine, basic and advanced SWAT courses, and I am instructor certified in active shooter response and less lethal munitions.
I am currently the lead instructor for, and developed the curriculum for, the department cadet and in-service pistol training program. I am also in charge of, and developed the curriculum for, our firearm instructor certification program.
Every year I am personally on the range for qualifications for over 1,000 officers. Every year I spend roughly 350 hours on the range assisting in instruction for over 300 students in shotgun and rifle courses.
I've graduated approximately 700 cadets from my (roughly) 60 hour pistol training program and then assisted in instructing them all in another (roughly) 50 hours of tactical training and hands on evaluation exercises.
And I've assisted in the development of the curriculum for, and personally instructed, approximately 1,000 officers in concealed carry.
I'm a Texas LTC instructor and conduct LTC, basic pistol, and church security courses on the side in addition to contracting with other local agencies to assist in their firearms training.
In addition to those basic training courses I also instruct many in-service pistol classes in advanced technique and transition to MRDS and have been contracted as the lead pistol instructor for a federal agency's annual training cycle.
In addition to this formal firearms instruction I am a Master class shooter in both the USPSA and IDPA and have multiple Grand Master classifications in Steel Challenge. Every year (pre-covid) I organize and host the largest law enforcement multigun match in the country and weekly steel challenge matches for approximately 40 shooters from April-September.
***ETA***
I realized in proof reading that I didn't actually answer this question.... We work 4-10s, so I'd estimate 150 classes per year, if you count a day as one class. Many of our courses are a week long.
Originally Posted by RJM
How many FORMAL certified classes have you been chief instructor for, done the classroom instruction or been on the line as an instructor...
_______________________________________
So no, I'm not NRA certified.
But mastering the art of accurately firing a pistol and learning how to teach that skill to other people isn't something I dabble in. It's not something I almost did one time for some guy, or helped with a few times a year or on the weekends.
Shooting is essentially all I do. Every day I drive to work at a gun range. Standing on a range instructing people in firearms and their practical application in the field is what I do every day. I've conservatively estimated that I personally watch over 500,000 rounds a year fired on the range.
And none of that has to matter to you. But you can take your sanctimonious "what have you done" and shove it, because you're not the only guy around who's ever taught somebody how to shoot.
Would have to disagree Hawk... Without getting the fundamentals of any skill down all the practice in the world is useless... It's like a house...you have an inadequate or faulty foundation and one day the house falls down.
Had a guy come to me about midpoint of the shooting part of a BP class. He was probably about 60 and said to me "I've been shooting for over 40 years and I have never shot groups like this in my entire life..." Because he simply kept doing the same thing wrong over and over again... I see it every time I go to the range.
Are there those people who can self teach and get better...absolutely. But they are the minority...
I'm a bit jaded.
You dont win the Kentucky Derby on a donkey with a whip.
Would have to disagree Hawk... Without getting the fundamentals of any skill down all the practice in the world is useless... It's like a house...you have an inadequate or faulty foundation and one day the house falls down.
Had a guy come to me about midpoint of the shooting part of a BP class. He was probably about 60 and said to me "I've been shooting for over 40 years and I have never shot groups like this in my entire life..." Because he simply kept doing the same thing wrong over and over again... I see it every time I go to the range.
Are there those people who can self teach and get better...absolutely. But they are the minority...
I'm a bit jaded.
You dont win the Kentucky Derby on a donkey with a whip.
Fundamentals and speed training are both important.....if you are good enough, accurate enough, and fast enough to shoot all the horses you could win it.
To Blue and JWP....not to get into it with you guys, again, but was just wondering...
Are you NRA certified instructors?
How many FORMAL certified classes have you been chief instructor for, done the classroom instruction or been on the line as an instructor...
Just wondering...Bob
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
No, we don't don't want to travel down that road - we can stop at "are you an NRA certified instructor?"
Originally Posted by RJM
That is the question...are you an NRA Certified Instructor...
Here goes, not that any of it will actually make any difference to you. I'm sure you'll have some arbitrary checkbox that I haven't checked that makes all the difference to you.
No, I'm not an NRA instructor. I looked up the course a few minutes ago (http://www.nrainstructors.org/Instr...24B57BFE0A018DDB1CE3Q/TCPistol061517.pdf). It looks like the 16 hour pistol instructor course requires a pre-qualification test. A USPSA "C" classification will suffice, or you have to accumulate 80 points on an evaluation....and you get 30 of those points by successfully loading and unloading. As I said earlier, it's humorous to find that as your litmus test.
As for your questions....
I'm a TCOLE certified instructor and firearms instructor and have been for over 15 years. I currently work as a full time firearms instructor for a large municipal police agency. I have received training in, and practically applied training in the field, as an EMT, in tactical medicine, precision rifle, mid-range carbine, basic and advanced SWAT courses, and I am instructor certified in active shooter response and less lethal munitions.
I am currently the lead instructor for, and developed the curriculum for, the department cadet and in-service pistol training program. I am also in charge of, and developed the curriculum for, our firearm instructor certification program.
Every year I am personally on the range for qualifications for over 1,000 officers. Every year I spend roughly 350 hours on the range assisting in instruction for over 300 students in shotgun and rifle courses.
I've graduated approximately 700 cadets from my (roughly) 60 hour pistol training program and then assisted in instructing them all in another (roughly) 50 hours of tactical training and hands on evaluation exercises.
And I've assisted in the development of the curriculum for, and personally instructed, approximately 1,000 officers in concealed carry.
I'm a Texas LTC instructor and conduct LTC, basic pistol, and church security courses on the side in addition to contracting with other local agencies to assist in their firearms training.
In addition to those basic training courses I also instruct many in-service pistol classes in advanced technique and transition to MRDS and have been contracted as the lead pistol instructor for a federal agency's annual training cycle.
In addition to this formal firearms instruction I am a Master class shooter in both the USPSA and IDPA and have multiple Grand Master classifications in Steel Challenge. Every year (pre-covid) I organize and host the largest law enforcement multigun match in the country and weekly steel challenge matches for approximately 40 shooters from April-September.
***ETA***
I realized in proof reading that I didn't actually answer this question.... We work 4-10s, so I'd estimate 150 classes per year, if you count a day as one class. Many of our courses are a week long.
Originally Posted by RJM
How many FORMAL certified classes have you been chief instructor for, done the classroom instruction or been on the line as an instructor...
_______________________________________
So no, I'm not NRA certified.
But mastering the art of accurately firing a pistol and learning how to teach that skill to other people isn't something I dabble in. It's not something I almost did one time for some guy, or helped with a few times a year or on the weekends.
Shooting is essentially all I do. Every day I drive to work at a gun range. Standing on a range instructing people in firearms and their practical application in the field is what I do every day. I've conservatively estimated that I personally watch over 500,000 rounds a year fired on the range.
And none of that has to matter to you. But you can take your sanctimonious "what have you done" and shove it, because you're not the only guy around who's ever taught somebody how to shoot.
To Blue and JWP....not to get into it with you guys, again, but was just wondering...
Are you NRA certified instructors?
How many FORMAL certified classes have you been chief instructor for, done the classroom instruction or been on the line as an instructor...
Just wondering...Bob
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
No, we don't don't want to travel down that road - we can stop at "are you an NRA certified instructor?"
Originally Posted by RJM
That is the question...are you an NRA Certified Instructor...
Here goes, not that any of it will actually make any difference to you. I'm sure you'll have some arbitrary checkbox that I haven't checked that makes all the difference to you.
No, I'm not an NRA instructor. I looked up the course a few minutes ago (http://www.nrainstructors.org/Instr...24B57BFE0A018DDB1CE3Q/TCPistol061517.pdf). It looks like the 16 hour pistol instructor course requires a pre-qualification test. A USPSA "C" classification will suffice, or you have to accumulate 80 points on an evaluation....and you get 30 of those points by successfully loading and unloading. As I said earlier, it's humorous to find that as your litmus test.
As for your questions....
I'm a TCOLE certified instructor and firearms instructor and have been for over 15 years. I currently work as a full time firearms instructor for a large municipal police agency. I have received training in, and practically applied training in the field, as an EMT, in tactical medicine, precision rifle, mid-range carbine, basic and advanced SWAT courses, and I am instructor certified in active shooter response and less lethal munitions.
I am currently the lead instructor for, and developed the curriculum for, the department cadet and in-service pistol training program. I am also in charge of, and developed the curriculum for, our firearm instructor certification program.
Every year I am personally on the range for qualifications for over 1,000 officers. Every year I spend roughly 350 hours on the range assisting in instruction for over 300 students in shotgun and rifle courses.
I've graduated approximately 700 cadets from my (roughly) 60 hour pistol training program and then assisted in instructing them all in another (roughly) 50 hours of tactical training and hands on evaluation exercises.
And I've assisted in the development of the curriculum for, and personally instructed, approximately 1,000 officers in concealed carry.
I'm a Texas LTC instructor and conduct LTC, basic pistol, and church security courses on the side in addition to contracting with other local agencies to assist in their firearms training.
In addition to those basic training courses I also instruct many in-service pistol classes in advanced technique and transition to MRDS and have been contracted as the lead pistol instructor for a federal agency's annual training cycle.
In addition to this formal firearms instruction I am a Master class shooter in both the USPSA and IDPA and have multiple Grand Master classifications in Steel Challenge. Every year (pre-covid) I organize and host the largest law enforcement multigun match in the country and weekly steel challenge matches for approximately 40 shooters from April-September.
***ETA***
I realized in proof reading that I didn't actually answer this question.... We work 4-10s, so I'd estimate 150 classes per year, if you count a day as one class. Many of our courses are a week long.
Originally Posted by RJM
How many FORMAL certified classes have you been chief instructor for, done the classroom instruction or been on the line as an instructor...
_______________________________________
So no, I'm not NRA certified.
But mastering the art of accurately firing a pistol and learning how to teach that skill to other people isn't something I dabble in. It's not something I almost did one time for some guy, or helped with a few times a year or on the weekends.
Shooting is essentially all I do. Every day I drive to work at a gun range. Standing on a range instructing people in firearms and their practical application in the field is what I do every day. I've conservatively estimated that I personally watch over 500,000 rounds a year fired on the range.
And none of that has to matter to you. But you can take your sanctimonious "what have you done" and shove it, because you're not the only guy around who's ever taught somebody how to shoot.
Well, at least now Bob knows...
But really, you would think that in all that shooting, Blue would take the time to get Wayne LaPierre's stamp of approval on his instructorship. lol
Lots of proponents of semi-autos for a defensive weapon for new and inexperienced users. Lots of "get with the new technology son!" remarks or inferences. For those of you who are proponents, is the main reason cartridge capacity?
Lots of proponents of semi-autos for a defensive weapon for new and inexperienced users. Lots of "get with the new technology son!" remarks or inferences. For those of you who are proponents, is the main reason cartridge capacity?
Lots of proponents of semi-autos for a defensive weapon for new and inexperienced users. Lots of "get with the new technology son!" remarks or inferences. For those of you who are proponents, is the main reason cartridge capacity?
No acknowledgement of Blue's bonafides?
LOL
I don't give a ph uck about his bonafides, or yours, so unless you've got something meaningful to contribute, which you rarely do on pretty much any subject on this forum - just snarky comments to appear cool to your posse of pogues - go choke yourself on a carton of milk or something.
No, we don't don't want to travel down that road - we can stop at "are you an NRA certified instructor?"
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
So, back to the original post and subject.....
That's how I expected that to go.
And your point is? I'm just glad it got under your skin enough that you pissed away all that time in your life that you will never get back typing up your resume in that dik measuring contest.
I'm just glad it got under your skin enough that you pissed away all that time in your life that you will never get back typing up your resume in*winning* that dik measuring contest.
Blue...thank you for the time you took to describe exactly what you do...
And I am very sorry if I came across as "sanctimonious" but since leaving Texas where firearms training was taken seriously and had really good instructors, I have become very jaded because of what I have seen in this state as to LE training.
You make light of the NRA pre-instructor qualifier...there are many LE instructors in this state who if told to report to the range and do it cold would fail both the gun handling exercise and qualifier... Because an NRA Pistol instructor has to be able to deal with all types of firearms they don't just load and unload their own gun...when I ran it they would demonstrate with: Semi-Auto: SA DA DAO Safe-Action
Revolver: Two different makes
Single Action Revolver: Original Colt style New Ruger Transfer Bar Safety System
Most LEOs now don't even know what a revolver is...
And in this state at least that is better than the Police Standards and Training incoming per-instructor course qualifier...because there isn't one.
For many decades there was no incoming qualification...come in, do the course and bless you you are a firearms instructor. Then a new guy took over and instituted a pre-course qualifier...I believe passing was 90%. From what I was told 10-30% of the candidates were washed out every class before the first hour was up. And there was a standard to pass before graduation...no pass, no certificate. New commandant takes over a few years later...replaces the CI and puts someone else in and the next instructor class starts with.."well we know you all know how to shoot so there is no more pre-course qualification" and no exit qualifier either... I can't make his chit up...my imagination isn't that good... Things may have changed as a new commandant took over early this year..but I haven't heard anything different.
Again thank you for your time...it sounds like you are doing a great job and having a great time doing it...
To Blue and JWP....not to get into it with you guys, again, but was just wondering...
Are you NRA certified instructors?
How many FORMAL certified classes have you been chief instructor for, done the classroom instruction or been on the line as an instructor...
Just wondering...Bob
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
No, we don't don't want to travel down that road - we can stop at "are you an NRA certified instructor?"
Originally Posted by RJM
That is the question...are you an NRA Certified Instructor...
Here goes, not that any of it will actually make any difference to you. I'm sure you'll have some arbitrary checkbox that I haven't checked that makes all the difference to you.
No, I'm not an NRA instructor. I looked up the course a few minutes ago (http://www.nrainstructors.org/Instr...24B57BFE0A018DDB1CE3Q/TCPistol061517.pdf). It looks like the 16 hour pistol instructor course requires a pre-qualification test. A USPSA "C" classification will suffice, or you have to accumulate 80 points on an evaluation....and you get 30 of those points by successfully loading and unloading. As I said earlier, it's humorous to find that as your litmus test.
As for your questions....
I'm a TCOLE certified instructor and firearms instructor and have been for over 15 years. I currently work as a full time firearms instructor for a large municipal police agency. I have received training in, and practically applied training in the field, as an EMT, in tactical medicine, precision rifle, mid-range carbine, basic and advanced SWAT courses, and I am instructor certified in active shooter response and less lethal munitions.
I am currently the lead instructor for, and developed the curriculum for, the department cadet and in-service pistol training program. I am also in charge of, and developed the curriculum for, our firearm instructor certification program.
Every year I am personally on the range for qualifications for over 1,000 officers. Every year I spend roughly 350 hours on the range assisting in instruction for over 300 students in shotgun and rifle courses.
I've graduated approximately 700 cadets from my (roughly) 60 hour pistol training program and then assisted in instructing them all in another (roughly) 50 hours of tactical training and hands on evaluation exercises.
And I've assisted in the development of the curriculum for, and personally instructed, approximately 1,000 officers in concealed carry.
I'm a Texas LTC instructor and conduct LTC, basic pistol, and church security courses on the side in addition to contracting with other local agencies to assist in their firearms training.
In addition to those basic training courses I also instruct many in-service pistol classes in advanced technique and transition to MRDS and have been contracted as the lead pistol instructor for a federal agency's annual training cycle.
In addition to this formal firearms instruction I am a Master class shooter in both the USPSA and IDPA and have multiple Grand Master classifications in Steel Challenge. Every year (pre-covid) I organize and host the largest law enforcement multigun match in the country and weekly steel challenge matches for approximately 40 shooters from April-September.
***ETA***
I realized in proof reading that I didn't actually answer this question.... We work 4-10s, so I'd estimate 150 classes per year, if you count a day as one class. Many of our courses are a week long.
Originally Posted by RJM
How many FORMAL certified classes have you been chief instructor for, done the classroom instruction or been on the line as an instructor...
_______________________________________
So no, I'm not NRA certified.
But mastering the art of accurately firing a pistol and learning how to teach that skill to other people isn't something I dabble in. It's not something I almost did one time for some guy, or helped with a few times a year or on the weekends.
Shooting is essentially all I do. Every day I drive to work at a gun range. Standing on a range instructing people in firearms and their practical application in the field is what I do every day. I've conservatively estimated that I personally watch over 500,000 rounds a year fired on the range.
And none of that has to matter to you. But you can take your sanctimonious "what have you done" and shove it, because you're not the only guy around who's ever taught somebody how to shoot.
Anyone with a brain should have deduced as much from your posts here over time. It was obvious that you knew the subject matter
What does this actually mean? Were you a member, did you teach them or you had a member as a coach when you went to SAFS at Camp Perry? Enquiring minds want to know.
I'm just glad it got under your skin enough that you pissed away all that time in your life that you will never get back typing up your resume in*winning* that dik measuring contest.
To Blue and JWP....not to get into it with you guys, again, but was just wondering...
Are you NRA certified instructors?
How many FORMAL certified classes have you been chief instructor for, done the classroom instruction or been on the line as an instructor...
Just wondering...Bob
Originally Posted by Triggernosis
No, we don't don't want to travel down that road - we can stop at "are you an NRA certified instructor?"
Originally Posted by RJM
That is the question...are you an NRA Certified Instructor...
Here goes, not that any of it will actually make any difference to you. I'm sure you'll have some arbitrary checkbox that I haven't checked that makes all the difference to you.
No, I'm not an NRA instructor. I looked up the course a few minutes ago (http://www.nrainstructors.org/Instr...24B57BFE0A018DDB1CE3Q/TCPistol061517.pdf). It looks like the 16 hour pistol instructor course requires a pre-qualification test. A USPSA "C" classification will suffice, or you have to accumulate 80 points on an evaluation....and you get 30 of those points by successfully loading and unloading. As I said earlier, it's humorous to find that as your litmus test.
As for your questions....
I'm a TCOLE certified instructor and firearms instructor and have been for over 15 years. I currently work as a full time firearms instructor for a large municipal police agency. I have received training in, and practically applied training in the field, as an EMT, in tactical medicine, precision rifle, mid-range carbine, basic and advanced SWAT courses, and I am instructor certified in active shooter response and less lethal munitions.
I am currently the lead instructor for, and developed the curriculum for, the department cadet and in-service pistol training program. I am also in charge of, and developed the curriculum for, our firearm instructor certification program.
Every year I am personally on the range for qualifications for over 1,000 officers. Every year I spend roughly 350 hours on the range assisting in instruction for over 300 students in shotgun and rifle courses.
I've graduated approximately 700 cadets from my (roughly) 60 hour pistol training program and then assisted in instructing them all in another (roughly) 50 hours of tactical training and hands on evaluation exercises.
And I've assisted in the development of the curriculum for, and personally instructed, approximately 1,000 officers in concealed carry.
I'm a Texas LTC instructor and conduct LTC, basic pistol, and church security courses on the side in addition to contracting with other local agencies to assist in their firearms training.
In addition to those basic training courses I also instruct many in-service pistol classes in advanced technique and transition to MRDS and have been contracted as the lead pistol instructor for a federal agency's annual training cycle.
In addition to this formal firearms instruction I am a Master class shooter in both the USPSA and IDPA and have multiple Grand Master classifications in Steel Challenge. Every year (pre-covid) I organize and host the largest law enforcement multigun match in the country and weekly steel challenge matches for approximately 40 shooters from April-September.
***ETA***
I realized in proof reading that I didn't actually answer this question.... We work 4-10s, so I'd estimate 150 classes per year, if you count a day as one class. Many of our courses are a week long.
Originally Posted by RJM
How many FORMAL certified classes have you been chief instructor for, done the classroom instruction or been on the line as an instructor...
_______________________________________
So no, I'm not NRA certified.
But mastering the art of accurately firing a pistol and learning how to teach that skill to other people isn't something I dabble in. It's not something I almost did one time for some guy, or helped with a few times a year or on the weekends.
Shooting is essentially all I do. Every day I drive to work at a gun range. Standing on a range instructing people in firearms and their practical application in the field is what I do every day. I've conservatively estimated that I personally watch over 500,000 rounds a year fired on the range.
And none of that has to matter to you. But you can take your sanctimonious "what have you done" and shove it, because you're not the only guy around who's ever taught somebody how to shoot.
Anyone with a brain should have deduced as much from your posts here over time. It was obvious that you knew the subject matter
Yep.
And the fact that Triggered couldn't figure it out tells us everything we need to know about his firearms acumen.
Lots of proponents of semi-autos for a defensive weapon for new and inexperienced users. Lots of "get with the new technology son!" remarks or inferences. For those of you who are proponents, is the main reason cartridge capacity?
No acknowledgement of Blue's bonafides?
LOL
I don't give a ph uck about his bonafides, or yours, so unless you've got something meaningful to contribute, which you rarely do on pretty much any subject on this forum - just snarky comments to appear cool to your posse of pogues - go choke yourself on a carton of milk or something.
Blue...thank you for the time you took to describe exactly what you do...
And I am very sorry if I came across as "sanctimonious" but since leaving Texas where firearms training was taken seriously and had really good instructors, I have become very jaded because of what I have seen in this state as to LE training.
You make light of the NRA pre-instructor qualifier...there are many LE instructors in this state who if told to report to the range and do it cold would fail both the gun handling exercise and qualifier... Because an NRA Pistol instructor has to be able to deal with all types of firearms they don't just load and unload their own gun...when I ran it they would demonstrate with: Semi-Auto: SA DA DAO Safe-Action
Revolver: Two different makes
Single Action Revolver: Original Colt style New Ruger Transfer Bar Safety System
Most LEOs now don't even know what a revolver is...
And in this state at least that is better than the Police Standards and Training incoming per-instructor course qualifier...because there isn't one.
For many decades there was no incoming qualification...come in, do the course and bless you you are a firearms instructor. Then a new guy took over and instituted a pre-course qualifier...I believe passing was 90%. From what I was told 10-30% of the candidates were washed out every class before the first hour was up. And there was a standard to pass before graduation...no pass, no certificate. New commandant takes over a few years later...replaces the CI and puts someone else in and the next instructor class starts with.."well we know you all know how to shoot so there is no more pre-course qualification" and no exit qualifier either... I can't make his chit up...my imagination isn't that good... Things may have changed as a new commandant took over early this year..but I haven't heard anything different.
Again thank you for your time...it sounds like you are doing a great job and having a great time doing it...
Lots of proponents of semi-autos for a defensive weapon for new and inexperienced users. Lots of "get with the new technology son!" remarks or inferences. For those of you who are proponents, is the main reason cartridge capacity?
No acknowledgement of Blue's bonafides?
LOL
I don't give a ph uck about his bonafides, or yours, so unless you've got something meaningful to contribute, which you rarely do on pretty much any subject on this forum - just snarky comments to appear cool to your posse of pogues - go choke yourself on a carton of milk or something.
Lots of proponents of semi-autos for a defensive weapon for new and inexperienced users. Lots of "get with the new technology son!" remarks or inferences. For those of you who are proponents, is the main reason cartridge capacity?
No acknowledgement of Blue's bonafides?
LOL
I don't give a ph uck about his bonafides, or yours, so unless you've got something meaningful to contribute, which you rarely do on pretty much any subject on this forum - just snarky comments to appear cool to your posse of pogues - go choke yourself on a carton of milk or something.
Enjoy being a dumb ass.
You obviously put a lot of effort into it.
You're wrong. It doesn't require any effort from him; it comes naturally.
Some days here are like being the slowest jockey in the Kentucky Derby. You can't see the track for the horse's asses.
My point being, regardless of your position on any subject there's no point being a douchebag about it. People actually seeking information find their way into these places via search engines. It would be nice if they could read through a topic and gain some worthwhile information instead of a bunch of ass clown ery.
My point being, regardless of your position on any subject there's no point being a douchebag about.
I agree. But I bet we disagree on who’s being the douchebag about it.
I’d start with the guy who said, “Oh yeah, you dare disagree with ME? Do you even teach, bro?” Especially when his actual qualifications to ask the question are that he helped with some club classes on the weekends. Those two guys should’ve been ashamed to even post in here again.
Lots of proponents of semi-autos for a defensive weapon for new and inexperienced users. Lots of "get with the new technology son!" remarks or inferences. For those of you who are proponents, is the main reason cartridge capacity?
No acknowledgement of Blue's bonafides?
LOL
I don't give a ph uck about his bonafides, or yours, so unless you've got something meaningful to contribute, which you rarely do on pretty much any subject on this forum - just snarky comments to appear cool to your posse of pogues - go choke yourself on a carton of milk or something.
Enjoy being a dumb ass.
You obviously put a lot of effort into it.
And, once again, you prove my point. 👍
Yeah.
Who wants advice from a Master Class USPSA shooter that heads one of the finest firearms training departments in the country?
LOL
If you could hit a school bus at 5yds you’d probably schit your pants with excitement.
What a chit show. Blue, it's good to have you around here. I appreciate your knowledge and experience. Some folks have trouble distinguishing the players from the fans.
When the shooter chooses the proper tools for the job/mission, never violates safety rules and never misses the target at selected distances...*then* the "instructor" becomes superfluous.
When the shooter thinks he is good enough, he is wrong. Another member of the triggernosis school of critical thinking and deep experience.
Some folks don't appear impressed w/ Blue's CV and qualifications to comment on learning and teaching shooting. SNORK. They will continue to display their ignorance.
"I’d start with the guy who said, “Oh yeah, you dare disagree with ME? Do you even teach, bro?” Especially when his actual qualifications to ask the question are that he helped with some club classes on the weekends. Those two guys should’ve been ashamed to even post in here again."
...well in thinking about this for the day, I find you perfectly correct...and my sincere apologies if I offended you.
When the shooter chooses the proper tools for the job/mission, never violates safety rules and never misses the target at selected distances...*then* the "instructor" becomes superfluous.
When the shooter thinks he is good enough, he is wrong. Another member of the triggernosis school of critical thinking and deep experience.
Some folks don't appear impressed w/ Blue's CV and qualifications to comment on learning and teaching shooting. SNORK. They will continue to display their ignorance.
mike r
So, what's YOUR point?? Just because you may not be very good, doesn't mean others won't miss the designated target.
Go back to sleep, maybe firearms aren't for you. Nor the internet.
"I’d start with the guy who said, “Oh yeah, you dare disagree with ME? Do you even teach, bro?” Especially when his actual qualifications to ask the question are that he helped with some club classes on the weekends. Those two guys should’ve been ashamed to even post in here again."
...well in thinking about this for the day, I find you perfectly correct...and my sincere apologies if I offended you.
But as they say...color me gone...Bob
You know what they say. Those that can’t do, teach. I don’t think this applies to firearms. I’ve learned a lot over the years going to courses.
In 1984 I took a safety course with my wife. The instructor was a cop and he was all over the virtues of the double action revolver. He discouraged anyone from bringing a semi auto to the live fire portion of the class.
Times have changed! My last firearms class in 2019 had one student that brought a revolver. That was me. I have a SA that I carry in my hunting vehicle as a concealed weapon. My normal concealed guns are semi autos. The instructor became more comfortable When I used these as well during the live fire portion of the class. He offered no instruction whatsoever about proper revolver use other than saying be safe.
When first time/novice gun buyers ask me for a recommendation, my first response is almost always a revolver. In my opinion, autos tend to frighten and confuse them and in a high stress scenario, revolvers leave little to the imagination other than just pull the trigger. Also, statistics clearly show that the overwhelming majority of civilian (self defense) shootings, involve three rounds or less.
Edited to add: although when you thnk about ut, striker fired autos are kinda like an "automatic revolver.". Still an opinion but I'll still recommend a revolver/
When first time/novice gun buyers ask me for a recommendation, my first response is almost always a revolver. In my opinion, autos tend to frighten and confuse them and in a high stress scenario, revolvers leave little to the imagination other than just pull the trigger. Also, statistics clearly show that the overwhelming majority of civilian (self defense) shootings, involve three rounds or less.
Not me I always recommend a semi auto with good magazine capacity. They are not rocket science, i see zero advantage to a revolver for defensive purposes
Yet another consideration is cost. Most new shooters don't want to spend a lot. Two of our top sellers to new owners are the S&W SD9VE (new Sigma) and the Taurus G2C. Ones that want to spend more want a Glock 19 or M&P. Think of the price of any of those compared to a GP100 or 686. People may come in driving an Expedition or BMW, but don't want to "overspend" on something that could save their lives. I know it doesn't make sense, but it's reality. To those who keep saying "used K-frame", they aren't out there like they used to be. The days of cheap police trade ins was decades ago.
I was shooting Saturday with an LCR (1 7/8" 357, shooting 38 +P) and a Sig P365. 5 shots with one, 5 shots with the other, mainly from 15 yards. The little LCR makes me want to revolver all the time...but the extra capacity, speed of reload, and ease of carry with extra mag tip things to the auto.
Freakin' LCR's have some kinda mojo on that trigger.
When first time/novice gun buyers ask me for a recommendation, my first response is almost always a revolver. In my opinion, autos tend to frighten and confuse them and in a high stress scenario, revolvers leave little to the imagination other than just pull the trigger. Also, statistics clearly show that the overwhelming majority of civilian (self defense) shootings, involve three rounds or less.
Jorge,
Those studies claiming round counts and distances are not nearly as sound as you think.
When first time/novice gun buyers ask me for a recommendation, my first response is almost always a revolver. In my opinion, autos tend to frighten and confuse them and in a high stress scenario, revolvers leave little to the imagination other than just pull the trigger. Also, statistics clearly show that the overwhelming majority of civilian (self defense) shootings, involve three rounds or less.
Jorge,
Those studies claiming round counts and distances are not nearly as sound as you think.
When first time/novice gun buyers ask me for a recommendation, my first response is almost always a revolver. In my opinion, autos tend to frighten and confuse them and in a high stress scenario, revolvers leave little to the imagination other than just pull the trigger. Also, statistics clearly show that the overwhelming majority of civilian (self defense) shootings, involve three rounds or less.
Jorge,
Those studies claiming round counts and distances are not nearly as sound as you think.
Thank you. See my amended post, but I'll still "stick to my guns" and recommend the revolver. My wife has carried a S&W snubbie for years is good with it (at seven yards)
The days of cheap police trade ins was decades ago.
Which tells you a lot about those who keep preaching that mantra.
Kings and a few others had trade-in model tens Etc for under $400, less than 6 months ago. I suppose the days of walking into just any gun shop and finding them over but like everything else, if you scour the internet you will find them.
Bud's had a bunch of Model 10's a while back, if I recall they were selling them for the low-mid $300 range and several campfire posters got one. A gunshop in Staten Island has three well used NYPD trade ins on gunbroker right now but demand is driving prices up, one is at $455 with 6 days left and another is at $320.
I've quietly watched this dumpster fire unfold, and the thing that makes me scratch my head is how folks refuse to look past the demeanor/social graces of others. Just focus on substance. You don't have to like 'flave, Blue, jwp, or ______ (fill in the blank), but if they have the skills and experience, don't just reject their quality input on the basis that you don't like their personality.
I've been all barfed up on gun issues on numerous occasions and have learned this above all else: If you're willing to admit that you might be wrong, and if you're willing to listen, guys here will fall all over themselves helping you out. Send a guy a PM; ask for some help; then just sit back and take notes. Absorb all that free wisdom.
I had an hour long phone call once with jwp about bonded bullets through various barriers and was stunned by the amount of actual, real-world testing the man has done. Bluedreaux has helped me pick shot timers, guns, and holsters. Oregon45 is still helping me in my search for a vintage Model 57 Smith. JiminIdaho is another one who simply takes the time to conduct real-world tests and writes thorough reports on his findings. CrimsonTide, Steelhead, MontanaMarine, Mackay Sagebrush, etc. etc., these are all men who if they say something is true, you can take it to the bank and write checks on it, regardless of whether you "get along" with them.
Honestly, the petty bickering saddens me. Here in the HANDGUNS forum we typically do better.
When first time/novice gun buyers ask me for a recommendation, my first response is almost always a revolver. In my opinion, autos tend to frighten and confuse them and in a high stress scenario, revolvers leave little to the imagination other than just pull the trigger. Also, statistics clearly show that the overwhelming majority of civilian (self defense) shootings, involve three rounds or less.
Edited to add: although when you thnk about ut, striker fired autos are kinda like an "automatic revolver.". Still an opinion but I'll still recommend a revolver/
Perhaps Joe was onto something with that double barrel shotgun idea.
When first time/novice gun buyers ask me for a recommendation, my first response is almost always a revolver. In my opinion, autos tend to frighten and confuse them and in a high stress scenario, revolvers leave little to the imagination other than just pull the trigger. Also, statistics clearly show that the overwhelming majority of civilian (self defense) shootings, involve three rounds or less.
Edited to add: although when you thnk about ut, striker fired autos are kinda like an "automatic revolver.". Still an opinion but I'll still recommend a revolver/
Perhaps Joe was onto something with that double barrel shotgun idea.
Lots of proponents of semi-autos for a defensive weapon for new and inexperienced users. Lots of "get with the new technology son!" remarks or inferences. For those of you who are proponents, is the main reason cartridge capacity?
Handguns have been flying off the shelves of late, seems like very many of the purchasers ain’t gun people, most will never take a class, more’n a few won’t even go to a range more’n once if they go at all. Listen to the questions they ask at purchase and watch the way they handle the gun like it’s some alien object.
And if they are like that, imagine rest of the people in their household.
So that handgun, loaded or not, is gonna sit around their house for years in a drawer somewhere.
Under those circumstances I’d prefer it was a revolver simply because you can see it’s loaded when you pick it up.
As noted, Sami-autos far outnumber K-frame revolvers on the shelves now, but j-frames are hanging in there.
Handguns have been flying off the shelves of late, seems like very many of the purchasers ain’t gun people, most will never take a class, more’n a few won’t even go to a range more’n once if they go at all. Listen to the questions they ask at purchase and watch the way they handle the gun like it’s some alien object.
And if they are like that, imagine rest of the people in their household.
So that handgun, loaded or not, is gonna sit around their house for years in a drawer somewhere.
Under those circumstances I’d prefer it was a revolver simply because you can see it’s loaded when you pick it up.
As noted, Sami-autos far outnumber K-frame revolvers on the shelves now, but j-frames are hanging in there.
That's some great advice.
Be sure to remind them to never dry fire it either.
Birdy, you stated that you can tell if a revolver is loaded by looking at it, please illuminate. If I look at the cylinder from the rear i cannot tell if the brass has been fired or not w/out close examination. Do you think the person you described will examine for primer strikes or just look at the gun from the front?
I don't understand why people think that a revolver is the EZ button for an untrained gun owner.
Birdy, you stated that you can tell if a revolver is loaded by looking at it, please illuminate. If I look at the cylinder from the rear i cannot tell if the brass has been fired or not w/out close examination. Do you think the person you described will examine for primer strikes or just look at the gun from the front?
I don't understand why people think that a revolver is the EZ button for an untrained gun owner.
mike r
Birdfugker is the same brainiac that says you shouldn't dry fire.
Birdy, you stated that you can tell if a revolver is loaded by looking at it, please illuminate. If I look at the cylinder from the rear i cannot tell if the brass has been fired or not w/out close examination. Do you think the person you described will examine for primer strikes or just look at the gun from the front?
I don't understand why people think that a revolver is the EZ button for an untrained gun owner.
mike r
Didn't say it was an EZ button, I do say the majority, maybe even the vast majority, of people buying stuff at the gun counters in response to a crisis are untrained gun owners.
ca. 1972, neighbor's house, NY suburbs. Handguns just weren't a thing many people had in that time and place. Neighbors teenage kid's dad had a snubbie .357 what was in hindsight a k-frame Smith, hidden securely away. Of course kid finds it and when his dad was out we went and looked, first handgun I ever handled. Kid's dad never took him shooting,acted like the gun was a secret, kid had scarcely more experience holding it than I did, and I had never touched a handgun before.
Ya ever see someone older than maybe twelve handle a handgun who ain't familiar with 'em? They don't just up and point them, they examine them all over first like a curious monkey, muzzle going everywhere. Yep, them brass cartridges was pretty obvious, dunno that we would have known to look into the cylinder to check if there were bullets (who leaves spent cartridges in a revolver anyway?). He points the revolver at arm's length, presses a bit on the trigger, trigger begins to give, cylinder moves, he stops. I don't recall unloading it, prob'ly we didn't know how because if we did we would have prob'ly unloaded and loaded it again repeatedly. If nothing else just to look at the cartridges.
If it had been a Glock... would we have known to drop the magazine and rack the slide? Today maybe from all the movies and video games, absent that, we would have found an inscrutable black handgun with a 1/4" 5.5lb trigger.
Some teenage girl just accidentally shot and killed her friend the other week in this town, in this case with a stolen handgun. Been a few over the years not involving stolen guns. I knew a student I always thought well of on account of one time his friends had left him all the way across town, maybe twenty miles and he walked home overnight, didn't b$tch or whine or wake up his mom. I was impressed by that. The following summer he got accidentally shot in the neck by a friend when they were looking at a handgun, bled out and died. Might have been a revolver, but most likely was an auto.
Might as well address dry-firing. Yep, early on I put a bullet through a wall dry firing, no one on the other side, nothing got hurt except the wall and my self-esteem. Early in the morning I had disassembled and cleaned my revolver, put it back together. Got interrupted by the coffee pot, came back and idly dry fired the gun at that same spot like I had done prob'ly a hundred times before, except I had forgot that I had reloaded it. Ya, I know I'm a dumb fugh etc etc but I'm in good company. I have read police stations all across America have holes in them. Even Bill Jordan put a hole in a wall once, possibly when dry firing.
I figure anything that puts into your muscle memory "pull trigger; harmless click.... pull trigger; harmless click... pull trigger;harmless click" is a bad thing. I still dry fire once in a while, at the range. Most often I'll leave an empty chamber in a revolver to check for flinching or jerking the trigger. I still get a case of the willies at just up and dry-firing an empty gun tho, that one incident made me permanently more careful.
I really like the Glock 19, if I could have only one handgun it would be a 19, it is unfortunate tho that you have to dry-fire it before you can take it apart to clean it. I figure lots of Cops and Security Guards, not usually gun people, dry-fire their Glocks to take it apart as much as they fire it live.
We had a Sheriffs Deputy fatally shoot herself in the abdomen here once after she had apparently got the "drop magazine... rack slide" order wrong when she "unloaded" it and then depressed the trigger. A similar thing was posted on video here some time back where a guy's adult son had handed his dad a Glock and the dad thought it was already cleared, shot himself in the hand as he pulled the trigger so he could remove the slide. Same thing; his muscle memory told him "pull trigger; harmless click"... when you're disassembling a Glock.
Of course the rules of safe gun handling were broken in every incidence, but humans is fallible.
Birdy, you stated that you can tell if a revolver is loaded by looking at it, please illuminate. mike r
OMG I can actually teach YOU something 🙂
We can lay a bunch of revolvers on a table, some loaded, some empty, and you can try to see just by looking which have cartridges in ‘em and which don’t. I’ll help if you get it wrong.....
Bill Jordan accidentally shot and killed another Border Patrol officer while practicing his fast draw in his office. The .357 bullet went through the wall and struck the other officer typing a report in the adjoining room.
Bill Jordan accidentally shot and killed another Border Patrol officer while practicing his fast draw in his office. The .357 bullet went through the wall and struck the other officer typing a report in the adjoining room.
I wasn’t going to mention the killing a guy part but thanks for explaining the circumstance.
I would imagine he’d practiced a fast draw at least a hundred times with no consequences, dunno if he customarily dry fired while doing so. Clearly his ingrained muscle memory at that particular instant led to tragedy.
I believe the disconnect here is between one group of people who want to be great at shooting pistols and another group who wants to be great at safely owning pistols.
I believe the disconnect here is between one group of people who want to be great at shooting pistols and another group who wants to be great at safely owning pistols.
Those qualities do not need to be exclusive of each other
Seems pretty obvious to me that a double action revolver is inherently less likely to to be accidentally fired by a complete novice, and is also a great deal simpler to learn its basic operation. As long as they know how to load, unload, and to never thumb cock the hammer, that's about all they need to know for safe handling. After about one range session with a competent teacher, they should also be able to plug someone with it at close range. That's about all many people want to know about the home defense gun they just purchased. And for those people, you can't do better than to recommend a medium frame, double action, .38 or .357 Magnum revolver.
If they later find that they also enjoy shooting, a very high level of skill and effectiveness can be achieved with a bit more training and range time with their revolver.
I believe the disconnect here is between one group of people who want to be great at shooting pistols and another group who wants to be great at safely owning pistols.
Then there is birdman who can a write a treatise trying to defend being neither.
Birdy, you stated that you can tell if a revolver is loaded by looking at it, please illuminate. mike r
OMG I can actually teach YOU something 🙂
We can lay a bunch of revolvers on a table, some loaded, some empty, and you can try to see just by looking which have cartridges in ‘em and which don’t. I’ll help if you get it wrong.....
HMMM, yet you managed to get it wrong and you consider your self a gun guy. You taught me nothing but definitely reinforced my impression that most gun guys don't follow the basic rules of gun safety very well.
Seems pretty obvious to me that a double action revolver is inherently less likely to to be accidentally fired by a complete novice, and is also a great deal simpler to learn its basic operation. As long as they know how to load, unload, and to never thumb cock the hammer, that's about all they need to know for safe handling. After about one range session with a competent teacher, they should also be able to plug someone with it at close range. That's about all many people want to know about the home defense gun they just purchased. And for those people, you can't do better than to recommend a medium frame, double action, .38 or .357 Magnum revolver.
If they later find that they also enjoy shooting, a very high level of skill and effectiveness can be achieved with a bit more training and range time with their revolver.
New shooter, not really into guns but feels he needs one..."Do I go with the $700 old fashioned Smith & Western revolver or the $300 Taurus G3C with twice the capacity?". Easy answer, from what I've seen.
Seems pretty obvious to me that a double action revolver is inherently less likely to to be accidentally fired by a complete novice, and is also a great deal simpler to learn its basic operation. As long as they know how to load, unload, and to never thumb cock the hammer, that's about all they need to know for safe handling. After about one range session with a competent teacher, they should also be able to plug someone with it at close range. That's about all many people want to know about the home defense gun they just purchased. And for those people, you can't do better than to recommend a medium frame, double action, .38 or .357 Magnum revolver.
If they later find that they also enjoy shooting, a very high level of skill and effectiveness can be achieved with a bit more training and range time with their revolver.
Exactly how a semi auto is used. Wow
Ask someone with weak familiarity with semi-autos to unload it and hand it to you. They will, more likely than not, remove the magazine, and hand it to you. So, not quite the same.
Seems pretty obvious to me that a double action revolver is inherently less likely to to be accidentally fired by a complete novice, and is also a great deal simpler to learn its basic operation. As long as they know how to load, unload, and to never thumb cock the hammer, that's about all they need to know for safe handling. After about one range session with a competent teacher, they should also be able to plug someone with it at close range. That's about all many people want to know about the home defense gun they just purchased. And for those people, you can't do better than to recommend a medium frame, double action, .38 or .357 Magnum revolver.
If they later find that they also enjoy shooting, a very high level of skill and effectiveness can be achieved with a bit more training and range time with their revolver.
Exactly how a semi auto is used. Wow
Ask someone with weak familiarity with semi-autos to unload it and hand it to you. They will, more likely than not, remove the magazine, and hand it to you. So, not quite the same.
Ask someone unfamiliar with a revolver to unload it and see if they can get the cylinder open, I doubt it
Ask someone unfamiliar with a revolver to unload it and see if they can get the cylinder open, I doubt it
Why is that more complicated than a mag release?
I never said it was more complicated, neither us complicated, but people with no familiarity know nothing about either one.
I didn't say "no" familiarity. I said weak familiarity. With weak familiarity, a double action revolver is pretty much a no brainer to avoid a negligent discharge yet still be able to plug someone intentionally at close range. For a semiauto, I wouldn't trust someone with mere weak familiarity to be safe. I'd want them to accumulate a good amount of instruction and experience before I trusted them to be safe with it. That's the point I was making.
Look, my personal choice and yours is a semiauto. That's not the point. We've put in the hours (years, decades) and have a high motivation to learn our weapons. That's not the case with everyone who buys a gun, though.
Ask someone unfamiliar with a revolver to unload it and see if they can get the cylinder open, I doubt it
Why is that more complicated than a mag release?
I never said it was more complicated, neither us complicated, but people with no familiarity know nothing about either one.
I didn't say "no" familiarity. I said weak familiarity. With weak familiarity, a double action revolver is pretty much a no brainer to avoid a negligent discharge yet still be able to plug someone intentionally at close range. For a semiauto, I wouldn't trust someone with mere weak familiarity to be safe. I'd want them to accumulate a good amount of instruction and experience before I trusted them to be safe with it. That's the point I was making.
Look, my personal choice and yours is a semiauto. That's not the point. We've put in the hours (years, decades) and have a high motivation to learn our weapons. That's not the case with everyone who buys a gun, though.
I disagree with you assertion. There were plenty of negligent discharges with revolvers before semi autos became common place.
Neither one is free from unsafe handling, but to claim a revllver is less prone to unsafe handling is ridiculous.
I disagree with you assertion. There were plenty of negligent discharges with revolvers before semi autos became common place.
Neither one is free from unsafe handling, but to claim a revllver is less prone to unsafe handling is ridiculous.
Yeah, we definitely disagree. I find your position on the question unfathomable.
I find your position ridiculous. If i can teach someone to safely handle a revolver, i can just as easily teach them to safely handle a semi auto.
The question, however, regards first time buyers with low motivation to learn about their guns.
They arent any better off with a revolver, a semi auto ain't brain surgery. If anyone can't take the time to familiarize themselves with a deadly weapon then they are fools
The question, however, regards first time buyers with low motivation to learn about their guns.
They arent any better off with a revolver.
I know from personal experience teaching folks that this is not the case. Instruction in safe handling of a semiauto is a lot more involved than with a double action revolver. There are simply more variables and safety concerns, with a semiauto, for the low-motivated first-time shooter, than is the case with a double action revolver.
The high motivated learner, with a high interest in firearms, is a different case. The difference in that case might be a bit narrower.
The question, however, regards first time buyers with low motivation to learn about their guns.
They arent any better off with a revolver.
I know from personal experience teaching folks that this is not the case. Instruction in safe handling of a semiauto is a lot more involved than with a double action revolver. There are simply more variables and safety concerns, with a semiauto, for the low-motivated first-time shooter, than is the case with a double action revolver.
The high motivated learner, with a high interest in firearms, is a different case. The difference in that case might be a bit narrower.
BS, I've taught first time gun buyers with a semi auto as their first handgjn and it ain't brain surgery
The question, however, regards first time buyers with low motivation to learn about their guns.
They arent any better off with a revolver.
I know from personal experience teaching folks that this is not the case. Instruction in safe handling of a semiauto is a lot more involved than with a double action revolver. There are simply more variables and safety concerns, with a semiauto, for the low-motivated first-time shooter, than is the case with a double action revolver.
The high motivated learner, with a high interest in firearms, is a different case. The difference in that case might be a bit narrower.
Don't point a weapon at anything that you don't intend to shoot, keep your finger off of the trigger unless you intend to shoot. That's the same fir both type weapons.
A "teacher" explains and demonstrates why something is done before teaching how it is done. The 4 Rules work if one understands the why of their importance and ALWAYS follows them. If you can teach someone how to load the gun you can teach them to make it safe.
There is no limit to the ways the ignorant can phug things up. Teach a few CCW classes and you will understand how many gun owners will point a loaded gun at others and unconsciously put their finger on the trigger. All will deny it until they see the video.
I know from personal experience teaching folks that this is not the case. Instruction in safe handling of a semiauto is a lot more involved than with a double action revolver. There are simply more variables and safety concerns, with a semiauto, for the low-motivated first-time shooter, than is the case with a double action revolver.
The high motivated learner, with a high interest in firearms, is a different case. The difference in that case might be a bit narrower.
Bill Jordan accidentally shot and killed another Border Patrol officer while practicing his fast draw in his office. The .357 bullet went through the wall and struck the other officer typing a report in the adjoining room.
I wasn’t going to mention the killing a guy part but thanks for explaining the circumstance.
I would imagine he’d practiced a fast draw at least a hundred times with no consequences, dunno if he customarily dry fired while doing so. Clearly his ingrained muscle memory at that particular instant led to tragedy.
Bill Jordan was not practicing his fast draw. He removed a loaded gun from a drawer, failed to make the weapon safe, and shot it in a direction he shouldn't have.
You folks suggesting that a revolver isn't simpler than an automatic in its manual of arms are shoveling sand against the tide. Are you attempting to gaslight someone?
Revolver : Press cylinder latch Press cylinder open Insert rounds Close cylinder Pull trigger till done Press cylinder latch Press cylinder open Slap ejector rod Close cylinder
Auto (striker fired / no safety to be most revolver-esque) Load mag Insert mag Rack slide Pull trigger till done Drop mag Rack slide to make your self feel better that it’s empty
What did I miss ? (Big fuggin difference :sarcasm )
Both have simple manual of arms, just different. People aren't as stupid as some seem to think (some are, though). It's just like all the women who come into the store and their husbands have them convinced they're the weaker sex and can't rack a slide. In 2 minutes, 95% of them are doing it just fine with the overhand push-pull method.
You folks suggesting that a revolver isn't simpler than an automatic in its manual of arms are shoveling sand against the tide. Are you attempting to gaslight someone?
You're regurgitating old mantras that don't apply in 2020.
You folks suggesting that a revolver isn't simpler than an automatic in its manual of arms are shoveling sand against the tide. Are you attempting to gaslight someone?
You're regurgitating old mantras that don't apply in 2020.
Especially when you consider juice vs squeeze.
Can't fathom for the life of me why anyone would think that a semiauto pist is too complicated for a newbie? Police recruitsin large metropolitan arenas most never held a pustll until the academy and they do just fine
Can't fathom for the life of me why anyone would think that a semiauto pist is too complicated for a newbie? Police recruitsin large metropolitan arenas most never held a pustll until the academy and they do just fine
I guess it depends on the newbie. There's certainly more to understand about a semiauto pistol in order to operate it safely, though, so someone who's not really interested in learning about his gun (e.g., it's just going to be loaded up and stuffed in a sock drawer, just in case) should, in my opinion, be steered in the direction of a good double action revolver.
Can't fathom for the life of me why anyone would think that a semiauto pist is too complicated for a newbie? Police recruitsin large metropolitan arenas most never held a pustll until the academy and they do just fine
I guess it depends on the newbie. There's certainly more to understand about a semiauto pistol in order to operate it safely, though, so someone who's not really interested in learning about his gun (e.g., it's just going to be loaded up and stuffed in a sock drawer, just in case) should, in my opinion, be steered in the direction of a good double action revolver.
Why don't you layout this perceived complication thst you claim a semi auto pistol possesses.
They are not complicated at all
I font care where they put it ut should be a semi auto
Police recruits are generally 20 to 35 years old, don't have arthritis yet and aren't suffering the long-term effects of carpal tunnel syndrome Etc. They are generally plenty strong enough to work the slide of an automatic without pointing at toward their elbow or side or someone standing alongside them. And of course you have them for 6 to 8 months were you can correct them or send their ass down the road.
Some of us were actually around training those recruits with revolvers and through the transition to semi-automatic pistols. That group will generally do fine with whatever you train them on and yes, much of the new generation have never held a pistol before the academy.
Training private CCW folks is another matter. Lots of them are well into their golden years and they're not going to put in the time or effort to become class a action shooters with a semi-auto. many of them have already purchased a revolver before the training begins Many of those folks are in fact better served by the simplicity and ease of operation of a double action revolver.
I realize a lot of what goes on here is Hive think and trying to aggravate people out of your tree house. And right here is the only place where it changes anything and most of that in people's imagination.
police recruits are generally 20 to 35 years old oh, don't have arthritis yet and our suffering the long-term effects of carpal tunnel syndrome Etc. They are generally plenty strong enough to work the slide of an automatic without pointing at toward their elbow or side or someone standing alongside them. and of course you have them for 6 to 8 months were you can correct them or send their ass down the road.
Some of us were actually around training those recruits with revolvers and through the transition to semi-automatic pistols. That group will generally do fine with whatever you train them on and yes, much of the new generation have never held a pistol before the academy.
Training private CCW folks is another matter. Lots of them are well into their golden years and they're not going to put in the time or effort to become class a action shooters with a semi-auto. many of them have already purchased a revolver before the training begins Many of those folks are in fact better served by the Simplicity and ease of operation of a double action revolver.
I realize a lot of what goes on here is Hive think and trying to aggravate people out of your tree house. and right here is the only place where it changes anything and most of that in people's imagination.
Can't rack a slide but have no trouble with the heavy double action trigger pull with their arthritis?
Both have simple manual of arms, just different. People aren't as stupid as some seem to think (some are, though).
It's just like all the women who come into the store and their husbands have them convinced they're the weaker sex and can't rack a slide. In 2 minutes, 95% of them are doing it just fine with the overhand push-pull method.
Oh how I have missed the pistol section of the fire. I would throw my .02 in but I looks like I'm out since I don't hold the coveted NRA certificates. I do appreciate how the OP has answered all of his own questions and decided who is allowed to contribute in a worthwhile manner. Lol
Oh how I have missed the pistol section of the fire. I would throw my .02 in but I looks like I'm out since I don't hold the coveted NRA certificates. I do appreciate how the OP has answered all of his own questions and decided who is allowed to contribute in a worthwhile manner. Lol
Can't rack a slide but have no trouble with the heavy double action trigger pull with their arthritis?
Miracles never cease
Exactly! Also, racking a slide is an occasional occurrence. That heavy DA pull is an every shot event.
My wife was/is unable to shoot a revolver because of her small hands a severe arthritis. So she selected a semi auto that she us comfortable with and shoots well enough to take out snakes
Revolver : Press cylinder latch Press cylinder open Insert rounds Close cylinder Pull trigger till done Press cylinder latch Press cylinder open Slap ejector rod Close cylinder
Auto (striker fired / no safety to be most revolver-esque) Load mag Insert mag Rack slide Pull trigger till done Drop mag Rack slide to make your self feel better that it’s empty
What did I miss ? (Big fuggin difference :sarcasm )
This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ There is a reason thr Glock dominates the Police market. BTW, if the slide stays open on the last semi auto shot, the gun is empty. No need for the last step. The slide should be normally left open unless there is a desire to immediately fire or store the pistol.
This has certainly turned into one of the dumber pissing matches I've seen on this forum. I mean....it lacks all the humor of a Hardin/Gunkid thread, but still going nowhere.
Trigger pull poundage on revolvers and semi's are a deal killer.
In IDPA, we see a lot of kids and newly divorced women learn to shoot, change mags, clear Fail To Fire, etc. Trigger pull is their main obstacle to over come
Children(young adults) and small women have a hard time with very heavy trigger pull.
One thing for sure, 17-20 round 9mm gives them a lot of confidence, especially the women fearful of their agressive X.
13 brand new women shooters in a 4 hour class today. I'd estimate ages to be from 25-67 and the average somewhere around 40. All of them very new and very weak.
2 S&W .22s (Victory?) and a Glock .22, everything else was striker fired.
With minimal instruction they were all loading, unloading, firing, and clearing basic and double-feed malfunctions with aplomb. I'd guess the average A-Zone hit percentage at 15 yards was 80%, C-Zone 95%.
This has certainly turned into one of the dumber pissing matches I've seen on this forum. I mean....it lacks all the humor of a Hardin/Gunkid thread, but still going nowhere.
Originally Posted by Savuti
Originally Posted by varmintsinc
Oh how I have missed the pistol section of the fire. I would throw my .02 in but I looks like I'm out since I don't hold the coveted NRA certificates. I do appreciate how the OP has answered all of his own questions and decided who is allowed to contribute in a worthwhile manner. Lol
When you find yourself under attack by a mob of ANTIFA or BLM thugs the semi-auto Glock with a backup 33 round mag is much better than a revolver.
Certainly. That's been my choice for a lot of years now. Love revolvers, but I choose a Glock (26, 19, or 17, and sometimes 43), and have dedicated myself to learning them.
That, of course, has nothing to do with the question of which has a simpler manual of arms between, say, a Glock 19 and a Model 10 S&W. It's not a huge difference on that scale, but it does go to the S&W Model 10. Whether you think that's a particularly important distinction is yet another matter. Even a little training and experience nullifies it almost entirely. But for the gun that going to be bought by a novice, who learns only its basic function, loads it, and sticks it in a sock drawer, the Model 10 is the choice less likely to result in an unintentional discharge due to the simplicity (and inherent safety) of its manual of arms, assuming the hammer is never manually cocked (which it doesn't need to be, to operate it).
13 brand new women shooters in a 4 hour class today. I'd estimate ages to be from 25-67 and the average somewhere around 40. All of them very new and very weak.
2 S&W .22s (Victory?) and a Glock .22, everything else was striker fired.
With minimal instruction they were all loading, unloading, firing, and clearing basic and double-feed malfunctions with aplomb. I'd guess the average A-Zone hit percentage at 15 yards was 80%, C-Zone 95%.
13 brand new women shooters in a 4 hour class today. I'd estimate ages to be from 25-67 and the average somewhere around 40. All of them very new and very weak.
2 S&W .22s (Victory?) and a Glock .22, everything else was striker fired.
With minimal instruction they were all loading, unloading, firing, and clearing basic and double-feed malfunctions with aplomb. I'd guess the average A-Zone hit percentage at 15 yards was 80%, C-Zone 95%.
You're gonna have a hard time fitting in if you travel back to 1986.
13 brand new women shooters in a 4 hour class today. I'd estimate ages to be from 25-67 and the average somewhere around 40. All of them very new and very weak.
2 S&W .22s (Victory?) and a Glock .22, everything else was striker fired.
With minimal instruction they were all loading, unloading, firing, and clearing basic and double-feed malfunctions with aplomb. I'd guess the average A-Zone hit percentage at 15 yards was 80%, C-Zone 95%.
You're gonna have a hard time fitting in if you travel back to 1986.
13 brand new women shooters in a 4 hour class today. I'd estimate ages to be from 25-67 and the average somewhere around 40. All of them very new and very weak.
2 S&W .22s (Victory?) and a Glock .22, everything else was striker fired.
With minimal instruction they were all loading, unloading, firing, and clearing basic and double-feed malfunctions with aplomb. I'd guess the average A-Zone hit percentage at 15 yards was 80%, C-Zone 95%.
You're gonna have a hard time fitting in if you travel back to 1986.
All that is necessary is to get a red hat and yell a lot.
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![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/7wZw06u.png)
