Good morning folks! I'm not much of a handgun guy so I find the need to ask the very knowledgeable folks here a question or two. I have a dear old friend I've know all my life (who's even less of a handgun guy then me) who bought 2 Ruger LCR's (his wife's is an LCRX) for concealed carry a few years back. He lives in northern Michigan and seems to be having lots of trouble finding 38 special ammo. Anyway since I handload I thought I'd load up enough to keep him out of trouble the rest of his days. He's not a computer guy either (very old school) so he doesn't go online shopping either. Anyway I bought a S&W 686+ back in the early 90's (357) but used to shoot lots of 38's in steel shoots and plinking at the range. My health is real bad so I haven't played with my few handguns in quite a while so I gathered up around 300 rounds of target loads (wadcutters and swc's) for them to practice with and loaded up another 300 rounds of what I considered carry rounds (I don't carry so it's guesswork on my part). 110 grain XTP's with 5.2 of Titewad, 125 XTP's with 7.0 of Longshot, 140 XTP's with 6.4 of Longshot and finally a few rounds of 110 XTP's with 7.6 grains of Longshot. The 110's with the 7.6 load are supposed to be at least 200 fps faster than the Hornady Critical Defense loads while the rest are claimed (in the load manuals to be right around the same as the Critical Defense loads). Of course all are JHP's which I thought would be the best option but reading thru some of the posts here find that maybe hardcast might be a better choice. I know nothing about cast bullets so I never looked into them at all.
As I said my health is real bad and I may be bed ridden in a short while so I'm trying to setup friends and family with what they might need in the bleak future our country seems to be headed in. What are the folks here using for carry loads in their short barreled 38 revolvers? I really don't want to load much more for them only to find out the JHP's are inconsistent in expansion and penetration and I should have set them up with hardcast! I'm not trying to start any arguments but I'm really lacking in knowledge and don't have the time and ability to do my own testing. I have no intention of laying around in bed for years making the medical money machine a small fortune at my expense so I'd like to get these folks setup with loads at least before I pull the plug so to speak.
I'd really appreciate your input on these loads I've given them already and what might be a better option for them before I run out of time! Thanks for the help!!!!
OH, also it's like pulling teeth trying to get them to practice and give feedback on loads! Kinda frustrating! Funny, most of the guys Ive spoken with thru the years all claim to love to shoot, but trying to get them to a range is again like pulling teeth! I just don't get it!
If hardcast is your preference, please let me know what and where to find em if ya don't mind.
They will find those revolvers are pretty snappy in 38 sp. My wife's S&W Lady Smith sure is.
I taught Basic Pistol Courses for several years. Just about everyone who bought one those small light weight handguns, ended up not shooting much because of the recoil. Once they shot a few of those faster loads, they shot even less.
Personally, seeing as they don't shoot much, I would load up some hollow base wad cutters, backwards, with about 3 gr of Bullseye.
Not much of defense firearm, but I would rather see a person carrying a 22rf that they shoot a lot than a 9mm or 38 that recoils so much,they won't shoo it enough to be effective in a self defense situation.
Carrying a less penetrating round that they can shoot well is better than loading those faster ones and the gun sits on the night stand and isn't carried. I appreciate your situation. I am not as bad, but not far from it.
Thanks! I figured the lighter bullets might not be as snappy as the heavy stuff but wanted to give enough velocity stop the threat (hopefully). I gave them some wadcutters (but not backwards) with around 3 grains of 231 but they haven't even tried any of the practice rounds yet. And since the snow is on the ground up there, they probably won't until spring. Unfortunately I think they believe just having a gun makes them safe but I keep trying to explain it may not help at all if you can't use the damn thing!
IMO for what it’s worth, for self defense in a northern climate where multiple layers of clothing could be encountered I would be heavily inclined to go with a hard cast for reliable penetration. Had erratic performance of HP’s (even XTP) on deer from a 41 mag. The cavity on HP’s can get plugged up with clothing and fur.
I have a S&W airweight & my wife has a Ruger LCR both in 38 spl. These are our CC guns. What I did is to buy from Mackay_Sagebrush some loaded ammo. It's 148 grain wad cutter. He is licensed to make& sale ammo. That's what I put in both our revolvers. It seems like you want to hand load for your friend but this maybe an easier route. Also go to U tube & find Paul Harrell. He's done a few videos on the 38 & sub-nose revolver. He's already done the work. Really good information there.
Mackay is here on the board. You can find him thru the search feature. He's a stand up guy.
IMO for what it’s worth, for self defense in a northern climate where multiple layers of clothing could be encountered I would be heavily inclined to go with a hard cast for reliable penetration. Had erratic performance of HP’s (even XTP) on deer from a 41 mag. The cavity on HP’s can get plugged up with clothing and fur.
I just read that yesterday after already loading a bunch of hp's for them. Also told them to shoot the damn things and let me know how they handle it. BUT they seem to feel better just having something to load them with.
This has turned out to be much more than I thought it would! Just load some up and send it to them, but after reflecting on it it's a lot to take on the responsibility for someone else's carry and defense! I hope I don't let them down. Couldn't live with that. Much more serious then hunting or plinking!
With the potential for multiple layers of heavy clothing…..go with hard cast, wide metplat bullets. If you can find some, or have someone cast them for you…..a hard, 148 grain wad cutter would do quite nicely for defense! memtb
I have a S&W airweight & my wife has a Ruger LCR both in 38 spl. These are our CC guns. What I did is to buy from Mackay_Sagebrush some loaded ammo. It's 148 grain wad cutter. He is licensed to make& sale ammo. That's what I put in both our revolvers. It seems like you want to hand load for your friend but this maybe an easier route. Also go to U tube & find Paul Harrell. He's done a few videos on the 38 & sub-nose revolver. He's already done the work. Really good information there.
Mackay is here on the board. You can find him thru the search feature. He's a stand up guy.
Thanks so much! I did want to load for them as we both had lots of brass already and I had primers and powder so it seemed it would be cheaper than what their charging for defensive loads. But like I told my friend, cost for loads to protect you and your wifes lives is better than the result of bullet failures or not being able to hit the perp!
I have read a few post where Mr. Mackay chimed in and he seems to make good loads that lots here are happy with. That may be an option also. I've been footing the bill for these loads (my friend is quite the penny pincher) but can't do it for much more. Have my own family to setup for also!
I will look up Mr. Harrell also and watch some of those videos also!
With the potential for multiple layers of heavy clothing…..go with hard cast, wide metplat bullets. If you can find some, or have someone cast them for you…..a hard, 148 grain wad cutter would do quite nicely for defense! memtb
Thanks! I'm finding that out just a little too late! lol Hope I can find some as I don't know anyone else who loads or does cast bullets. Seems like after all these years I would have met someone at the ranges who likes handloading and has lots of knowledge of cast bullets. Wish I would have had these forums when I started handloading! Could have taught me and saved me lots! lol
my advice would be for you to go online and buy factory ammo for your friend. A box of 50 would probably be enough since they don't shoot and probably won't practice. Any sort of 'defense' type would most likely be just fine.
my advice would be for you to go online and buy factory ammo for your friend. A box of 50 would probably be enough since they don't shoot and probably won't practice. Any sort of 'defense' type would most likely be just fine.
Yeah I'm starting to think that myself! Maybe a couple of boxes of Mr. Mackay's loads would do them just fine! Thanks!!!
I loaded quite a few slightly higher velocity than the Critical Defense loads (with the 110) but with the xtp as Hornady isn't selling the ftx (in 110 anyway). Would the flex tip make that much difference in performance than the xtp? Worried about penetration thru heavy coats as I live in the north country.
I believe the hardcast wadcutter is a sensible choice for the 38 snub. It will punch a good size hole and dig deep, even at low velocity.
Thank you Sir! Appreciate it! You always have good info. Used to lurk long ago at Sniper Hide and enjoyed your posts! Was just looking at the ammo pictured! Thanks!
As I said my health is real bad and I may be bed ridden in a short while so I'm trying to setup friends and family with what they might need
I don't have any ammo or reloading suggestions for you, but I did want to take a moment and wish you the very best for whatever amount of time you have left. Good on you for looking out for others at a time when you would be totally justified just doing things for yourself. God bless you, sir! I guess we will never meet face-to-face in this lifetime, but maybe in the next. When I arrive in Glory, I'd be very obliged if you came up and introduced yourself.
As I said my health is real bad and I may be bed ridden in a short while so I'm trying to setup friends and family with what they might need
I don't have any ammo or reloading suggestions for you, but I did want to take a moment and wish you the very best for whatever amount of time you have left. Good on you for looking out for others at a time when you would be totally justified just doing things for yourself. God bless you, sir! I guess we will never meet face-to-face in this lifetime, but maybe in the next. When I arrive in Glory, I'd be very obliged if you came up and introduced yourself.
Take care! Wade
Thanks so much Wade!! I sure appreciate it!! I'm not to sure I'd be able to meet you there but I'm hopeful! If I do I'll see you there and hopefully there's some pretty nice ranges there!
Mackay is great to deal with, iv bought his 38,357 and 10mm ammo!
Yeah, after reading a few threads it seems everyone who has dealt with him likes his stuff a lot!! I've been eager to get some of this HC ammo and get my friend taken care of but I think I'll wait for Mr. Mackay and get some of his stuff! Thanks!!!!!
Any flat/solid 125-175 gr @650 fps to as fast as you can comfortably and proficiently shoot them.
I'm just amazed at the penetration these 6 and 7 hundred fps hardcast rounds can get! Heck I've been trying to push these JHP's as fast as I can get em and they don't penetrate as well as the HC's. Shoot I used to load my light target loads to the same velocity (6 & 7 hundred) and thought they were kinda weak!
You guys are great! I've been doing some research in between posts and you guys give more and better info than I could find from many written articles! I should have asked before I loaded all those JHP's! But I guess he can use those in the spring and summer when folks don't have such heavy coats on!
I loaded quite a few slightly higher velocity than the Critical Defense loads (with the 110) but with the xtp as Hornady isn't selling the ftx (in 110 anyway). Would the flex tip make that much difference in performance than the xtp? Worried about penetration thru heavy coats as I live in the north country.
Lead semiwadcutter should do the trick, and the sharp shoulder should do some damage while drilling through. Soft lead will give some deformation while penetrating. Especially if bone is struck.
I loaded quite a few slightly higher velocity than the Critical Defense loads (with the 110) but with the xtp as Hornady isn't selling the ftx (in 110 anyway). Would the flex tip make that much difference in performance than the xtp? Worried about penetration thru heavy coats as I live in the north country.
Lead semiwadcutter should do the trick, and the sharp shoulder should do some damage while drilling through. Soft lead will give some deformation while penetrating. Especially if bone is struck.
I have been using the Underwood 150 gr. hard cast wadcutter in my snubbie .38 for years. I gave my mother my S&W 3" M64 .38 and loaded it with the same wadcutter ammo. That is a 150 gr. hard cast full wadcutter at 850 fps from a 2" barrel. Mac makes the same stuff and I would trust it to be first rate quality.
In defensive shooting with a handgun, or any gun I suppose, shot placement is King, penetration is Queen and all else is gravy.
I have been using the Underwood 150 gr. hard cast wadcutter in my snubbie .38 for years. I gave my mother my S&W 3" M64 .38 and loaded it with the same wadcutter ammo. That is a 150 gr. hard cast full wadcutter at 850 fps from a 2" barrel. Mac makes the same stuff and I would trust it to be first rate quality.
In defensive shooting with a handgun, or any gun I suppose, shot placement is King, penetration is Queen and all else is gravy.
I was just looking at the Underwood offerings and that 150 like you and MM suggested looks like a good one!
"shot placement is King, penetration is Queen and all else is gravy" HA I love that! Perfect way to explain it! Gotta remember that one!
I loaded quite a few slightly higher velocity than the Critical Defense loads (with the 110) but with the xtp as Hornady isn't selling the ftx (in 110 anyway). Would the flex tip make that much difference in performance than the xtp? Worried about penetration thru heavy coats as I live in the north country.
Lead semiwadcutter should do the trick, and the sharp shoulder should do some damage while drilling through. Soft lead will give some deformation while penetrating. Especially if bone is struck.
Wife's 38 and 357 shoot 148gr semi-wadcutter hollow points. Real old school. HP, if they work. Semi-wadcutter if they don't. Soft lead either way.
No situation where something else isn't better, cherry picking. None where it is a horrible choice either.
On the rare occasion one of my smaller 38 revolvers get carried in a non outdoor related capacity I load them based on the season. Warm weather they are loaded with the Federal HST loads. Cooler weather its the Underwood Hardcast loads. To me both are extremely manageable to shoot accurately. In fact there is a 4" EAA Windicator (cheap but utterly reliable in my testing) currently residing in my trucks center console, that is loaded with the Underwood hardcasts with a backup speedloader of the same.
Well you guys have made it pretty clear. Hardcast, wadcutters for winter and he can use the JHP''s for spring and summer. At least that's what I'll be doing for my family anyway!
Thanks so much for all the help and education! Really appreciate it!
Nothing I can add beyond Mr Sagebrush. Note he has had standard velocity wadcutters for sale as well. Personally, that is what I would suggest for folks with limited practice in a lightweight revolver. Winter or summer. I loaded some hard cast poly coated 148 gr for my wife and daughter. Have not chronoed them but with 5.5 gr PowerPistol they are very comfortable in an Airweight S&W and a Model 15. If you have components and still wish to provide practice ammo just load wadcutters up with Bullseye or comparable powder at standard velocity.
Your generosity is noteworthy. God bless and keep you.
And I noticed MacKay has a website though it is under maintenance.
Nothing I can add beyond Mr Sagebrush. Note he has had standard velocity wadcutters for sale as well. Personally, that is what I would suggest for folks with limited practice in a lightweight revolver. Winter or summer. I loaded some hard cast poly coated 148 gr for my wife and daughter. Have not chronoed them but with 5.5 gr PowerPistol they are very comfortable in an Airweight S&W and a Model 15. If you have components and still wish to provide practice ammo just load wadcutters up with Bullseye or comparable powder at standard velocity.
Your generosity is noteworthy. God bless and keep you.
And I noticed MacKay has a website though it is under maintenance.
I stumbled across this thread on a random internet search and it describes exactly the question I am trying to answer right now... Pops passed a few years ago and left me a Ruger LCR 38 Special +P and I am looking for a self defense round for it... this YT vid by Paul Harrell concludes that if you are using standard pressure loads then the wadcutter or semi-wadcutter is the way to go instead of a JHP (like a Hornady XTP), here is part 3 is his video series on the topic:
If you are a reloader, and a bullet caster, NOE makes what I think is the perfect bullet for .38 Special self-defense loads, 148 grain hollow base wadcutter (can be loaded upside down as a hollow point, or not):
Because of this thread I ordered the mold and plan to make this my self defense bullet for the LCR. Ran it through QL and looks like I will start with 3.2 grains of W231 which will hopefully give a mild recoil load at around 525 fps, and see what happens. I'll cast the bullet with soft lead and powder coat, and resize to 0.358.
I stumbled across this thread on a random internet search and it describes exactly the question I am trying to answer right now... Pops passed a few years ago and left me a Ruger LCR 38 Special +P and I am looking for a self defense round for it... this YT vid by Paul Harrell concludes that if you are using standard pressure loads then the wadcutter or semi-wadcutter is the way to go instead of a JHP (like a Hornady XTP), here is part 3 is his video series on the topic:
If you are a reloader, and a bullet caster, NOE makes what I think is the perfect bullet for .38 Special self-defense loads, 148 grain hollow base wadcutter (can be loaded upside down as a hollow point, or not):
Because of this thread I ordered the mold and plan to make this my self defense bullet for the LCR. Ran it through QL and looks like I will start with 3.2 grains of W231 which will hopefully give a mild recoil load at around 525 fps, and see what happens. I'll cast the bullet with soft lead and powder coat, and resize to 0.358.
Thanks so much Mr. Dawes and welcome to the "Fire". Great place for the info ya need! Appreciate ya taken the time and effort to join and post this. Turns out I had seen Mr. Harrell's video's in my searches also. Also turns out I had given my friend and his wife some 148 WC's that I used to use for target practice in my 686+. They were pussycat loads and were very easy to shoot well in a full sized gun (bet they would be in a pocket pistol also)! Can't remember what exactly the load was but it was somewhere between 3 & 5 grains of 231. Gotta get some more for the friend and my family to play with and decide if that's what they want to carry. I know my family and my friend and his wife were counting on me to do the footwork for them so to speak but after consideration I decided ANYONE's carry load they will have to decide on themselves! I'll just give em a few different JHP carry loads and some hardcast to try out and let them decide. Couldn't stand if a load I chose didn't do the job and the wrong person went down!
With the potential for multiple layers of heavy clothing…..go with hard cast, wide metplat bullets. If you can find some, or have someone cast them for you…..a hard, 148 grain wad cutter would do quite nicely for defense! memtb
It's a good idea but I don't think they really need to be too hard at 38 speeds. I just cast a bunch of 147 wadcutters and powder coated them and I used 4 pounds of wheel weights to 1 pound of monotype. I'm guessing they are around 15bhn and that's a bit harder than I'd really even like. I just ordered a few hundred pounds of a bit softer allot that supposed to be around 10bhn. I'm betting it'll be great at about 850 fps from short 38s. I'll jug test some in the spring and see if either one expands at all. The only downside is the totally flat fronts are a bit harder to speed load quickly. I usually keep the gun loaded with the flat stuff and carry a speed loader with something easier to line up like 125g golden sabers or 158g swaged lead hpswc.
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