When you are at the range? I do, it is the only way to get better, and is my chosen way to defend myself and family.

As a kid I learned to hunt/shoot with a single shot, therefore I have always tried to depend on one well placed shot.
If a guy could learn to get two very close it could be a good thing in self defense I guess, but one well placed bullet will work on anything I have ever shot if I hit it right. Over the years I have killed thousands of animals from gophers to large elk.

I learned double tap in the Army and it has stuck with me on defensive training. Hunting, it is 1st shot has got to get it done. Les

What's Double Tap, if I may ask?

It just means squeezing the trigger twice. Basically, don't fire one shot and wait to see what happens, fire two right away.

Not sure who came up with that tactical concept. I'd like to think I was tactically aware enough to double tap and all that, but in a life or death encounter I'd probably emulate an MG-42 and try to achieve the highest cyclic rate of fire humanly possible. I'd be like those guys in the movies who fire all their rounds and then squeeze the trigger 3 or 4 more times on an empty gun just to make sure.

I do, but oddly, I seldom see others doing the same at my range.

Often I see a man take a careful stance with his handgun of choice. Raise it with a two-handed grip. Line up the sights carefully. Squint real hard. Take one shot. Maybe a second, shaky one. Put the firearm down on the bench. Squint real hard at the target. Repeat.

It can take several minutes for him to get through one clip of ammo.

And he'll be glad to tell you why one particular handgun caliber is better than all the others.

- TJM

Firing 2 consecutive shots as soon as possible. This is usually taught in tactical/defense classes, as there is a big difference between killing and stopping; the goal being stopping. You will be surprised at how far apart the impacts are at first, and how close you can get them with proper instruction and practice. I practice double-taps starting with .22 rimfires, and working my way up, with both pistols and revolvers.

Chris

I practice double taps almost every trip to the range(once a week)
It is pretty easy to do with my Glock19(9mm) but with my Kimber 45 or my Glock29(10mm) it is a bit more difficult!

I practice double taps at multiple targets, spaced irregularly,
from varying ranges- usually 7 to 30 yards, and generally from the leather. I do not practice "quick draw", but try to move only my arms and present the weapon smoothly. Twice a month, at least, expending no more than 50 rounds each session. I fire my other guns more often, but that's just for fun, and different.

Thanks, I see.

If I had a handgun, it is certainly something I'd practice.

Double taps are practiced everytime out. Practiced regularly, it becomes habit. Part of the trigger reset function.

Plus it sounds cool.

SL, why don't you have a handgun?

I don't really have a legitmate excuse for it, besides that I live in CA (for now) and it seems like too much of a hassle to buy, own and use one. Plus, even if I owned one here, I couldn't take it everywhere with me, so I figure I'll just get lots of practice with my air pistols while I'm here, and when I move to a better state, then I'll buy a real one (or two) (okay, maybe 25 or so )

That's no excuse

Chris

For defensive purposes, I practice "empty the gun", reload, repeat until the threat is gone or ammo is depleted. On paper the threat can be whatever you want it to be.

TM

The latest catch phrase is "controlled pair" to better define what is actually supposed to be taking place in the firing of the sequence. You should not be smashing the trigger as quickly as you can with no regard for controlling those shots. You are responsible for every action you take, and, the consequences of such actions. A stray bullet winging downrange unaccounted for is bad news for everyone. It should go something like this. The first shot breaks, watch the front sight rise and return, get a "flash sight picture" of the front sight as it stops, not passes through, stops in the "A zone." You have controlled the movement of the trigger on its reset or return forward and once you have that front sight steady back where it should be the trigger crush begins again. With practice this is done very quickly. Remember to breathe and be in control...

A couple of points, having the two shots hit the target several inches apart is actually better than having them look like snake eyes. A pair of shots touching is cool to see, however, the second shot is traveling through the wound cavity of the first shot and not contributing as much terminal damage as if it were a few inches away. Second point, do not ever trust a single shot to stop a determined attacker. You don't know if the attacker is wearing body armor, jacked up on drugs, on a jihad craze, or whatever. To shoot once, then gawk to watch the effect of that shot could be a life ending habit. The drill would be to shoot two controlled shots, quickly evaluate, then reapply if necessary. I can tell you from experience, things are seldom that calm and calculated. Don't plan on, and, get in the habit of shooting just one round. Make plans to survive what is a brutal few seconds, and, to do what is necessary to come out a winner. Your family will apreciate it!

Good topic and MOGC - good info to think about there....

I've had zero training and never really considered controlled pairs/taps but I will now.

Shooting Lady,
I think owning a handgun is like buying life insurance.
You buy it hoping you never need it, you also can't wait until you need it to buy it. It will be too late.
whelennut

I'm not sure but what the double-tap is on its way out according to Mas Ayoob. The bottom line is to shoot the threat until its aggression is no more and then stop. Any excess will be seen as too much force by certain types of individuals who may or may not be lawyers, cops, judges or jurors. The double-tap is a good excercise, but I wouldn't use it until it became second nature.

I cannot remember where I read this, however, "shoot until the threat drops out of your sight picture" seems like pretty good advice.

A lot of this debate's answers may very well be dependant upon which state, and it's laws, you live in.

For example, in MN you can ONLY use enough lethal force to stop the threat, no more. If the first shot drops the perp, you are legally bound to stop firing, unless he/she gets back up again and continues the advance and the weapon the perp has is still there and still a threat.. Some legal-beagle might bring a case against you if the first shot stopped/killed the perp and you still fired a second time with no just cause other than a 'double-tap' habit.. Explaining that to a jury is nothing I'd wanna do.

Also good point about a missed shot. In MN, as I'm sure it would be in most if not all other states, as long as that bullet's in flight you OWN it. Miss the first shot and scratch the ankle on a passerby via shrapnel or close pass and the shooter's liable..

I have been told that MN's law is a really good, strong one. However, after going through the training and hearing what CAN happen, I respectfully disagree. As written, it does make one really pause before drawing and squeezing since a whole bunch of things can be used against you if some liberal DA decides to press.

What's really, really surprising is the last case a few days ago regarding a white, transient worker who used his handgun to defend himself from a couple of would-be thugs. I think his name was Don Hurd. Anyway, it's not clear whether he had a valid CCW license. It IS clear that he fired two shots in the air to scare them off, then shot one in the shoulder as he was running away (according to the newspaper).. Yet, they've let him go with no charges filed; most likely because to everyone that was interviewed afterward, he was a hero. People offered him money, jobs, a place to live etc..

But he violated a bunch of laws... Warning shots in the air? Perp running away? Possibly invalid CCW permit? Not even sure if the thugs had any weapons. Didn't try to retreat (necessary in MN IF possible; no 'castle doctrine' yet) I hope there's a followup to this story to see if he stays free or not..

I do, but full house 44 maggies tend to make a Tap/recover/tap, not a double tap . . . . .

BMT

You Gents (except for MOGC) are missing the point of a double-tap. The DT is a tactical assessment, mostly applicable to LEOs or military, based on the possibility of the bad guy wearing Kevlar or similar.

Two shoots center-mass, assess, then go to the head. If it's apparent the bad guy isn't armored stay with center-mass.

JOG is correct, but y'all still gotta practice . . . . . .

I figure that two shots is important enough to practice, even without a job as an LEO. (Some guys just don't drop dead fast enough).

The Perp liklely won't stand still and allow me to fire at him single action, all the while commenting on the quality of my shot placement. . . . . .

I also practice tactical reloads with a speed loader even though I have a 90% chance of ending the threat by simply displaying the weapon. . . . .

Practice is important . . . . .

BMT

You're right about the use of force to stop the threat, but the fact is, you shoot someone in the heart they've got maybe ten seconds worth of blood left in their brain, and can kill you.

Most LEO agencies teach a double tap. With the highcap magazines in today's autos, your trigger finger works far quicker than your cognative powers, especially under pressure.

So, for here at least, a double tap wouldn't be considered excessive, unless you shot the guy, he dropped immediately, then you stood over him and pumped another round. "Double tap" to me means two quick shots on target. The need to stop the threat will allow a double tap if it is two quick shots.

I never learned the double tap probably because I grew up with 45ACP and revolvers. Both did not have extended mags or cylinders. I was trained to use a BIG caliber and one shot per target was enough. Of course in my day nobody had light weight heavy duty body armour which I'm sure makes warfare and gun fights a whole different ball game to day. I guess that's why to day we need extended mags and cylinders.

I know a guy who knows a guy.
This one made the papers awhile back where a young man was threatened by an ex -boyfriend. The young couple were in an apartment when the old boyfriend tried to force his way in with a handgun and leg irons etc.
The hero had a shotgun and shot the intruder twice with a borrowed shotgun. Once to stop him and the second time for insurance. He wasn't charged with anything but it did make the newspaper and TV. So it depends!
When I took the Concealed weapon class I got a pretty strange look from the instructor when I mentioned the chest shot followed by a headshot. He explained after the chest shot you must call an ambulance for the victim in Minnesota. I'm not sure what the time frame of that is.
I think with a 45ACP in the chest the need for a follow up shot would be minimized. You guys with the 9MM should just dump your clip into them I guess. The 45 ACP is still "state of the art" as far as I'm concerned.
Redneck is 100% right about lead flying around hitting innocent civilians. You are responsible for every bullet that comes out of the barrel and if you wound somebody saying "sorry" won't cut it.
whelennut

Fortunatley i live in an enlightend state where if you fire to defend life and your bullet goes thru the bad guy and hits an innocent.....the State feels if the bad guy hadn't been in violation of the law they wouldn't have been shot in the first place so it's all on the bad guy.DT's pairs hammers etc. all have their place in a gun persons response.

I shoot the DT in drills at matches because its required. I am not at all comfortable with it because the drills often have multiple targets. If I get to a single target I"ll sure DT it and then go to head if its not down. In the meantime if multiples are exposed each one gets a round and on to the next, i'll sweep back if I have to. Generally I'm trusting on my 45 and so is my wife. If it were smaller I'd be thinking DT regardless. But with 7-8 rounds in a single stack I may need to conserve at times.

I do have my mind trained to 2 things though, if it ever happens and its a single perp, they will be recieving my full attention as I manage to find cover(not concealment).

Just my way of thinking.

Jeff

Now that I do not recall, but in MN it doesn't surprise me..

I think SCOTUS knocked down a lot of that "shoot once, call the cops" with the "Castle Doctrine." Once the thresh hole level of threat is reached, you're pretty well OK, so long as it isn't excessive and gratitous.

It may be a practice in MN, but I doubt it's law that you have to make a phone call after the first shot. What if you don't have a phone?

Don't count on any handgun being able to stop someone with one shot. That's a very bad mistake in thinking. I certainly would not train for it, as the chances of getting a hit are doubled with a double tap, and there are a lot of misses at very close range, under the threat of losing your life. Also, the effect of two hits is more than twice the effect of one hit.

Train as you please, but don't fool yourself with any "One shot stopping power" charts. There's no reason, in my mind, to shoot only once in a realistic situation, where you're at close range. I'm not too proud to shoot until the guy stops doing what he's doing to try to kill me.

If it ever happens (and I pray everyday that it doesn't) I just want my family and myself to be safe, and go home at the end of it all.

I just dug out my manual on MN CCW training.. Unless a law has changed in the last 2 years, this is what is in the book:

"Your immediate concern is to call the police and an ambulance (after a lethal confrontation, page 76). Even if you have injured or killed somebody in self-defense, there is an obligation to see that aid is rendered, and any failure to do so will not be looked on favorably by the police, the prosecutors, or the courts."

If this is accurate, this means there's no law that says you MUST call an ambulance although 'obligation' is a fairly strong word..

I agree whole heartedly..

You're absolutely correct. Not a day goes by that I don't wish I owned and could carry one.

There is definitely no downside for calling medical help. Maybe you got shot, or are on the brink of a heart attack.

It shows "good will" which tends to impress folks. By not calling someone, medical or cops, it also COULD give the impression that you feel you're guilty of a crime.

So, I say, drop a dime. Lay the gun down and wait for the cavalry. You don't want to be holding a gun with the cops arrive, since they know almost nothing about who's the bad guy and who ain't.

By the way, the NRA pistol instructor course my buddy went to teaches that the safest way to carry a handgun is without a round in the chamber. Of course this is true, but it ain't law and it's not very practical sometimes. But it is undoubtedly true.

Just curious, but why can't you own and carry one?

Location, Location, Location, to borrow a term from the real estate industry..

I live in CA, as I explained above; sure, I can legally buy one here, if I wanted to jump through all the hoops, but this is not a Shall Issue state and the idea of successfully being issued a CCW, in my town, is a bit of a joke.

LES,

Old wise saying, Anything worth shooting once, Is damn well worth shooting twice.

Dave

PS... double, triple, quadruple.... Whatever it takes

Dave

The "shoot once with a big bore and they'll go down" is a mighty chancy prospect. I was trained that "luck makes for a pi$$ poor partner... never count on it!" Handguns are weak, even the most powerful of handguns. They are handy to carry, and, they can be used to fight your way to a real battle weapon such as a rifle or shotgun, or to vacate the area. But shoot once and hope the bad guy goes down doesn't cut it when you consider the low power level of a handgun and then the fact that men have stayed in a fight after receiving centerfire rifle and even multiple .12 gauge shotgun slugs. Many combat vets can tell tales of shooting bad guys with rifles/shotguns and seeing them stay active and involved in the fight. Jim Cirillo (sp?) was a New York City officer assigned to the dangerous "Stake Out Squad" in the Big Apple in the 70's when a rash of armed robberies left several shop owners shot up after the robbery. He was involved with something like seventeen gunsfights while in the NYPD. He tells of one perp shot FIVE times with .12 ga. slugs before giving up the fight. That's will power fellows! You pop this sort of bad guy once and look to see how impressed he was with your marksmanship and this is the type of bad guy who will kill you. I mentioned on another thread here that I subscribe to the following scripture, "Shoot like they vote in Old Chicago. Early and often!"

While I would never advocate breaking a law, I woudl point out that carrying an unregistered weapon is a misdemeanor in most states. It is still a misdemeanor if you use it responsibly to save your life.

I toted for years as an UC officer, and was neever, ever burned by anyone for carrying. People don't look for such things, and at least in my area, a woman is less apt to get charged than a gang-banger.

I think some are mistaken about doubles vs singles. I'm going to want to tap each target first. Then I'll see whats left. While I'm busy double tapping the first 2, the third gets me? Anyway thats my thoughts on it. Coudl happen that the first one I hit, comes back around to snuff me while I'm venting #3. But I'd prefer to inflict damage to all first.

The same can be said for shooting dry, what if I have 3, and mt the gun on the first 2?

Maybe I'm learning I should buy into the spray and pray thinking. Though I hate to swap to anything other than old reliable 1911....

now if there is one perp, that one gets vented till there is no threat. Adn after the first 2 shots its probably moving to the head...

Jeff

Gene here in Colorado you don't register a weapon any of them, unless it is a NFA firearm, all you have to have is your CCW License on your person, I can carry any handgun I deem comfortable, even a borrowed on from a buddy if mine is in the shop. Les

You don't have to here, either. I assume in California you do.

Californians have it pretty damn hard, I honestly feel for them, tis why I hope the DC ruling goes to SCOTUS, and would love to see the Nationwide recognition of CCW's, would put a big damper on Kalifornia and Illinois to name a few. Les

Probably, the DC thing would be limited to DC. SCOTUS is very clear in limiting its decisions based on local laws.

It would be nice in California, I guess. No one with a legal CCW commits crimes.

A good drill is sort of like the El Presidente drill. With multiple bad guy targets on the range, lets say three, here is how I do it. This drill is a shooting skills/gun handling drill with less thought given to tactical movement. Begin facing away from the targets at 7 yards. At the start of the drill, draw the weapon, watch your footwork as you turn, and engage the three targets. I'm right handed, so I like to start on my left and fire a single shot on each of the first two targets center mass swinging along toward the right as I go. At the last target, the third, I fire a controlled pair of shots into the center mass, and now swing back left firing another single shot into each target to make it two per target. I can and do practice beginning on the left and swinging opposite of the above. No routines...

In other words, give the first targets something to think and worry about as you go down the line, that'd be a .45 ACP hole in their middle. At the last target go ahead and put it away (hopefully) with a pair of shots. Now swing back along the line and add a second shot to each until you reach the end of the line and all targets have two holes in them. Now... MOVE! SEEK COVER AND RELOAD THE WEAPON! Maintain target and situational awareness...

Begin slowly and smoothly, speed will come with experience and gun handling familiarity. Above all else - BE SAFE! Later when you get things flowing along, you can add some movement to help with the tactical aspect. Taking a step or two laterally along the line as you engage the targets helps tactically as long as you can do so safely and still engage the targets with accuracy. Remember, gaining distance and cover are crucial elements of being tactically in control of the situation. Add these two in the mix as your shooting skills progress.