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The classic 1942 tome by Fairbairn and Sykes, with a forward by Rex Applegate...

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:vejEZCq8PBEJ:www.gutterfighting.org/files/shooting_to_live.pdf+shooting+to+live&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

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By actual records, both Fairbairn and Sykes while with the Shanghai police engaged in over two hundred incidents where violent close combat occurred with oriental criminal elements.

These battle scarred veterans were experts in all types of close quarter fighting with and without weapons.

Their training techniques and methods were proven first in the back alleys of Shanghai and later with the Commando and the Special Intelligence branches of both the British and U. S. services.

Shooting To Live was the first written manual to surface in the field of combat pistol shooting. Its principles and techniques were expanded and modified upon to fit American needs in the various editions of the writer�s own text, Kill or Get Killed.

Many present day U. S. military and law enforcement combat handgun shooting techniques can be traced back to this book.

Colonel Rex Applegate


A must read for anyone even remotely interested in the defensive use of handguns.

Enjoy cool

Birdwatcher
The more things change.... grin

....this written in '42, based upon experience gained in the '20's and 30's (from Chapter VII) ...

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STOPPING POWER

We approach this subject with considerable diffidence. We regard it as essentially one in which theory should be disregarded in favour of practice, but even practice, as evidenced in carefully noted records over a number of years, does not lead us to any finality in the matter.

Instead, it provides us with so many contradictions that we feel that anything approaching dogmatism would be most unwise.


...and at the close of that chapter, after describing failure to stops with both Webley .445 revolvers firing soft lead bullets and Colt .45 Automatics firing hardball...

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Throughout this book we have done our best to emphasise the vital need for extreme rapidity of fire. For ourselves we can accomplish this... most easily with an automatic.

The more closely our own pistols resemble machine-guns the better we like it.


grin

Birdwatcher
Thought I'd reply to my own thread...

Note a couple of familiar truisms...

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...target shooting is of no value whatsoever in learning the use of tho pistol as a weapon of combat. The two things are as different from each other as chalk from goose, and what has been learned from target shooting is best unlearned if proficiency is desired in tho use of the pistol under actual fighting conditions...

...in circumstances which preclude the use of a better weapon, that is to say, when it is impracticable to use a shot-gun, rifle or sub-machine gun.


The significance being that these two Brits were the first guys to put such down on paper, the same truths subsequently repeated many time over by our own post-war generation of experts.

Note that Fairbiarn and Sykes had their raw recruits practice on a full-size combat silhouette at a distance of only two yards so as to best duplicate the conditions of most "affrays", teaching instinctive point shooting from the hip and also a sort of "pistol alignment by silhouette" on the target much as later taught by the famed (and recently deceased) NYPD Detective Jim Cirillo, who likewise was instructing based upon his own experience in shootouts with armed criminals.

Fairbairn and Syles taught the use of the sights with a two-handed hold at longer distances (25 yards) and recommended high-visibility sights such as there were back then (silver front posts), in all cases recommending rapid-fire until the target went down.

Most surprising to me is their use of dynamic courses of fire involving running and rapid-fire at pop-up targets, as well as the practice of forced-entry techniques, this all developed back in the 1920's in Shanghai, at a time when everybody else was training mostly by shooting one-handed at targets.

Sykes (formerly Schwalbe) had previously been a professional hunter in India and in Shanghai formed a police sniping squad, complete with scoped rifles, he and Fairbairn being popularly credited with developing the world's first SWAT teams, except I expect they could be a lot freer in that time and place at firing upon suspects than would be tolerated today.

Birdwatcher
Hoo boy! Note even the provenance of the term "Pratical Pistol"...

(...'scuse me, while I had heard much about this work, this is the first time I have had access to it).

Anyhow, here is "Gunsite" meets "Thunder Ranch", courtesy of the Shanghai Municipal Police, circa 1935...

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PRACTICAL PISTOL RANGES

...To give an idea of what we mean, the range... has more than once been made to represent the interior of a Chinese lodging-house harbouring, among other inmates, half a dozen bad characters who will resist arrest.

A screen hides all this from the men who are going to shoot. All they see from the outside is a wall with a door, through which, one by one, they will have to enter the lodging-house. No one knows what he will encounter inside, and the onIy instructions given are that innocent civilians are not to be "killed"....

The first man to shoot pushes in the door, closely followed by the range officer... along a dark, narruw, twisting passoge,
kicks open a door at one point... and finds himself in a dimly lit room occupied by apparently harmless people (dummies) who vary from mere lodgers to dope fiends or stool-pigeons. He has to take in the situation in a flash, for his appearance is the signal for tho fun to commence.

A shot is fired at him (blank cartridge in the control room), amd the criminals commence their �get away� (�criminals� are life-size targets that bob up from nowhere and disappear as quickly, heads and shoulders that peer at him briefly round a corner, men running swiftly across the room, possibly at an oblique angle, etc, all masked at some point.. by the �innocent bystanders� who must not be shot).

There is no time to think, and anything resembling deliberate aim is a sheer impossibility. Furniture and dummies impede his movements, amd it is noticable that he instinctively adopts tho �crouch� and shoots as a rule with the arm in any position except fully extended. His only course is to shoot quiokly and keep on shooting until his magazine is empty.


Eric Anthony Sykes died of a heart attack in 1945.

Towards the end of the war Fairbairn and Sykes reportedly had a falling out, specifically about Sykes being intrumental in preventing Fairbairn from accompanying British Commandos on actual raids (although pushing 60 by that time, Fairbairn was certainly physically capable).

A correct decision, IMHO, Fairbairn being far too valuable to risk. Instead he was sent to Washington to help with the establishment of our own OSS. After that he was stationed in Canada at the top secret "Camp X", where he became an inspiration for a young Canadian Naval Officer and future popular spy fiction author named Ian Fleming.

Post-war, William Ewart Fairbairn was again assigned to the East on "Her Magesty's Secret Service" to deal with upheavals in Ceylon (Sri Lanka), likely much of what he did is still classified.

Sheesh! A pity ol' Fairbairn and Sykes never made it to the present, IMAGINE the endless reams of print in gun rags and books they could have written... grin

Birdwatcher
The sad part, really, being that the existence of these guys and the extent of their innovations comes as a surprise to many if not most American handgun enthusiasts.

Chalk that up I guess to the self-promotion of our well known gun gurus...

"Lives Less Ordinary" indeed...

http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=57

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With hostilities between Japan and China beginning Fairbairn was in a particularly dangerous position. One incident was when Fairbairn met a Japanese Officer, who was a fellow Judo exponent on a pier. They exchanged pleasantries and Fairbairn noticed 150 Chinese men, women and children with their hands tied behind their backs sitting by a Japanese Naval vessel.

Fairbairn asked what was to become of them. The Japanese Officer said they would be shot. Fairbairn asked if he could take them. The Japanese Officer said no, they are to be shot. Fairbairn very calmly said that if they were shot he would meet the Japanese Officer some night and they would settle the score. The threat was implicit and the Japanese Officer later gave the Chinese captives to Fairbairn.



I expect Fairbairn would have been about 50 at the time.

I really must get a copy of the recent biography of this extraordinary man...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Legend-W-E-Fairbairn-Gentleman-Warrior/dp/0954949404

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The Legend of W.E. Fairbairn, Gentleman and Warrior: The Shanghai Years
The culmination of years of research by the late Peter Robins, the biography of W.E. Fairbairn, "the father of CQB" has been published.

Entitled " Fairbairn The Gentleman Warrior" this first volume covers his early life, the Shanghai years, up until the start of WW-2. A subsequent volume will cover the rest of the story of how he trained the Commandos, SOE, OSS etc.

Chapters include "The Shanghai School of Shooting" "USMC in Shanghai" "WEF Manuals" Also, lots of excerpts from Cavalcade, [Fairbairn's handwritten journal], a very detailed chapter on the Shanghai shooting school [including a comparison with Captain Tracy's methods.

Much also on the SMP training, including diagrams and photos of the assault/obstacle course. Loads of cases of the SMP engaging bandits, kidnappers and drug runners in the alleys, brothels and opium-dens of "the World's most dangerous city".

The text is heavily illustrated with numerous photos, many never before published.
Birdwatcher, Fascinating read.Fairbairn & Sykes lived in a time & learned-taught skills...and did jobs few of us ever will encounter.

Makes the average CCW citizen think about how truly skilled or ready he is..and that requirement varies tremendously depending on who we are and where we live-work-travel.

Another great topic would be what skills-tools can one learn & have which are non lethal to protect self and family..

Things and head smarts one can take with him into the Federal building, into a school zone..the airport..across state lines..into foreign countries....:) Jim

Birdy I can't thank you enough, you've turned me onto more good reading material about real folks, something I really enjoy. Thanks again. Randy
1ak... here's a pretty good link on E.A. Sykes (click on top link for PDF version), a guy as mysterious and enigmatic today as is Fairbairn.
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:5OA4m5T9UQAJ:www.manfamily.org/PDFs/EA%2520Schwabe%2520Essay.pdf+eric+anthony+sykes&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

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The life and times of Sykes seems to begin and end in mystery...

All that anyone seems to know (or is written about in books) is that he was Fairbairn�s Instructor partner � one half designer of the famed F-S Fighting knife and an Instructor to Special Forces and Secret Agents during World War Two.

As a researcher into the Combative Arts and their Instructors I firmly believe that none of the Instructors suddenly appeared out of �no-where� to serve the Allies in their time of need.

Their service was given freely, of much use and many of the trainee�s who undertook Instruction by those much needed persons stated that that owed their very lives to their teachings.

With this in mind whenever I research an Instructor I ask myself the questions: who was this man, where did he come from, why have we allowed his memory to be so dishonoured that we know so little about them to this day?...

I cannot allow let the memory and life�s work of Eric Anthony Sykes and his teachings to fade into the obscurity it has met thus-far, to not allow his legacy the respect and debt of thanks it deserves would be criminal.


On the same topic, some years back there was a British website that offered free in pdf format Syke's and Fairbairn's knife-fighting manual, complete with illustrations of where to cut an opponent to best inflict debilitating wounds. IIRC the pdf file was later taken down, according to the website at the request of Fairbairn's surviving family members.

It seems reasonable to conclude that this preference for anonymity was also characteristic of Fairbairn himself, and which may account for why it was a full 45 years after his death before a biography appeared.

One thing is for sure, with their at that time rare first-hand knowledge of Asian martial arts combined with an expertise in the use of firearms that was well ahead of their times, both Sykes and certainly Fairbairn were likely man for man, among the most lethally capable warriors the world has ever produced.

The British Empire has produced no shortage of "Gentlemen" skilled in brutality over the years, of the sort entering such units as the Black and Tans in Ireland during some of the same years that Sykes and Fairbairn were in Shaghai. I had been wondering if Fairbairn and Sykes were cut from the same cloth.

The evidence I hae read thus far indicates to the contrary, that both Fairbairn and Sykes were moral men, in short, numbered among the good guys cool

Birdwatcher
Jim... well aquiring skills with a firearm certainly requires a lower standard of physical fitness (as Cooper was wont to complain about some of the guys showing up for his classes grin) than is become proficient at martial arts.

Anyhow, back to the topic of firearms, Sykes and Fairbairn have this to say about auto pistol design...

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We have an inveterate dislike of the profusion of safety devices with which all automatic pistols are regularly equipped. We believe them to be the cause of more accidents than anything else...

It is better, we think, to make the pistol permanently �un-safe� and then to devise such methods of handling it that there will be no accidents.


..and of stopping power, with respect to "light and fast" versus "slow and heavy"....

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...we should choose a cartridge that represents what we consider a safe middle course, i.e. with a bullet of reasonably large calibre and weight, driven at a... high velocity


Sounds to me like they were describing a Glock, in .40 S&W, which has emerged as pretty much our pre-eminent Law Enforcement pistol/cartridge combo.

Birdwatcher
Depends on what you consider High velocity...and what you mean by a reasonably large caliber....

Not everyone's ears hear the same things...mine hear .45 ACP not 40 Short & Weak
Hard to say I guess exactly what Sykes and Fairbairn would have said today. They do eliminate the .22 and .25 as legitimate choices right off, but consider the .32 and .380 Autos as apparently legit.

I do know that Fairbairn armed the smaller-statured Chinese members of the SMP with Colt .380 autos rather than with 1911s.

His own preferred weapon was the 1911 (and I sure would like to find the text of his 1925 book on the use of that fiream), but in "Shooting to Live" him and Sykes do write favorably of a cut-down Colt revolver in .44 Special.

They also allude in "Shooting to Live" to not being allowed "by the rules of the game" to use expanding hollowpoint ammo.

What they meant by "very high velocity" depended on their frame of reference I guess. The standard velocities of British revolver rounds were exceedingly weak, even the vaunted Webley .445 lumbering along at around 650 fps, and his .45 ACP 1911 with 230 grain ball probably had an mv of somewhat less than 850 fps.

OTOH the .30 Mauser/7.62 Tokarev round they mentioned as being a paragon of high velocity used a 90 grain bullet travelling at a mv of 1,400 fps (and was later dropped by the Germans who created it when they expanded the neck of that bottleneck case to give us the familiar 9mm cartridge we still use today).

It might be that today's hotter/lighter/faster .45 acp bullet options (ie 185 grains at about 1,000 fps) would have also fit their criterion as a "middle ground" option, I dunno.

One theme that does stand out though is how very early these guys adressed the familiar questions we still debate today.

Judging by his writing in the "Stopping Power" chapter of "Shooting to Live", Fairbairn likely never would have said of his 1911 that "they all fall to hardball" and apparently did not share either Cooper's or Clint Smith's degree of faith in the efficacy of that round (but lets face it, by the time "Shooting to Live" was published he had accumulated far more first-hand practical experience than both of those guys combined).

Interesting that in "Shooting to Live" they specify that one must respond within a "third of a second" to a threat in a typical "affray", a requirement which seems to exceed possibility if one includes normal human reaction times.

Elsewhere (maybe in his 1925 book) Fairbairn had written that a typical altercation involving deadly force would occur by surpise, in the dark, within ten feet, and that the outcome would be decided within the first two seconds.

I have long kept those maxims in mind when conducting my own practice at the range.

Birdwatcher
Having been mentored by Jeff and taken classes from...each of them had/has plenty of experience on which to base their teachings.

Both Clint, who at one time was Ops Mgr for Jeff at Gunsite are struck from nearly the same mold...and both would agree that if you are totally surprised, they gotcha...no matter what gun or weapon you pack...don;t know about reaction time in a confrontation but the average today is about .22 to .25 for personal reaction to the buzzer. Fairbain echoes the FBI stats for gunfights...they take place in dim to no light, 2.1 shots are fired, at 7 to 10 feet and one person us usually hurt/dies. Nothing new there either.

What was fast in 1925 might really be moderate today..like a 230@850 not a 180@1000...

Since you keep the old maxims in mind when practicing, tell us how they influence your drills...
Well I figure the reference to some of our own Icons in anything less than reverent terms would get a rise grin.... but what I said is true...

..and Fairbiarn's "nothing new" WAS new when he put it into print.. the fact that the FBI et. al. reached the same conclusions when reinventing the wheel merely reinforcing the validity of Fairbairn's prior conclusions.

With respect to drills... Simple, I spend far more time up-close than most (seven yards or less), firing from a crouch. In fact if I'm popping off 100 rounds (typical), all of 'em might be shot at close range, both eyes open of course.

I don't practice nearly enough, maybe once a month, so when I do I concentrate on up-close where I am most likely to need it.

I'll usually include a few strings one-handed, both strong and weak hands, the emphasis throughout on speed from a low ready (in center mass is precise enough).

Where I differ from Fairbairn is I rarely if ever shoot from the hip and most times shoot two handed, aiming "by outline" as both Fairbairn and Cirillo describe. Usually double taps.

Fifteen yards and more, I'll pick up the front sight. If boredom gets to be a factor I'll make aimed head shots double action at 25 yards, and attempt the same double or single-action at 50. But really, anywhere in the torso double or single action at 50 is acceptable.

Mostly I'm on j-frames now, of those mostly a 3" Mod 60, almost always with .38 plusP. Revolvers being simple enough to operate that my wife can easily use 'em, a critical consideration IMHO.

Even my Airweight though wears the larger "Uncle Mike's Combat Grip" like S&W puts on their .357 j-frames. I go up about an inch in width and length with the "Combat Grip" relative to the "Boot Grip" type grips, but a grip is of absolutely no use to me if I cannot grab it consistently every time in panic drills, and the "Combat Grip" fits me really well.

Panic drills? Grasping unloaded from concealment (as described on another thread) bringing to firing position and dry-firing. I prefer not to dry fire anywhere but down a range.

I dunno who is worse prepared, me or JOG, but then he cheats and uses a Hi-Power...

Did I mention the dog? ... grin

Birdwatcher
I can understand and applaud your drills....but why do you crouch? What part of a second are you willing to give up while doing it and what does it buy you? Remember 7-10FEET, crouching won't make them miss at that range and it makes drawing more difficult and distorts your NPOA....Remember it was Cooper that got the FBI to stand up straight and to put BOTH hands on the pistol instead of placing a forearm and clenched fist over their thorax and shooting with the strong hand..

BTW...there are no such things as double taps...they should actually be a controlled pair, both shot using the sights and unless hip shooting, it is just as fast and more accurate...

also BTW, you did know Jim Cirillo was killed last week in a car crash, didn't you...? Too bad,he was one of the really good guys...old school certainly and would share some of his incredible stories if prompted with the right liquid refreshment...was fortunate to hear a few of those...
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....but why do you crouch? What part of a second are you willing to give up while doing it and what does it buy you?


Crouch is relative I guess, more like a slightly bent-kneed stoop, I do so because Fairbairn observed those under stress when TSHTF (including himself) regularly did the same. Since I'm prob'ly gonna cringe anyway, might as well cringe in practice too.

I dunno how much time I lose cringing in practice as opposed to the time I would lose cringing in the actual event. And of course, I much prefer an "actual event" never happen, if only on account of the legal expenses if I'm still drawing breath afterwards (I also read Ayoob grin).

With respect to double taps; a useful compromise between unrealistic single shot drills and the multiple shots likely to be unleashed in an actual situation.

It is easy to shoot wide even at 7 yards when striving for speed (as many actual police shootings attest), two shots practices aiming consistently between shots... and JUST two shots makes 100 rounds last longer, as well as imposing a sort of ingrained fire-disclipline that could be critical when armed with a 5 shot j-frame (even with autos I practiced with only five rounds in the mag for that very reason).

Sometimes I'll load four and one empty and then spin the cylinder before rapid-firing, stopping when I click on the empty, this being a useful way of checking for consistency of hold between rounds.

I had heard on these forums of the recent passing of Jim Cirillo, and mourn his passing, as I do the Good Colonel. I used to buy "Guns and Ammo" just to read Cooper's column, and I fear his like will become increasingly rare in these modern times.

Congrats on getting to meet and train with all of those guys cool

Birdwatcher
Just before he died, two street thugs tried to mug Col. Rex Applegate. Applegate was in his 80�s and walked with the aid of a cane. The two would-be street thugs got the liven snot kicked out of them by an 80+ year old man walking with a cane�I just love to hear stories like that.
There is some merit to the crouch, but not for crouch sake. The idea is that a moving target is always harder to hit (regardless of the range) than a stationary target. Anytime you draw a weapon in defense, you�d better be moving. I tend to move left or right, but a crouch is better than nothing. You survive a gunfight by coming away with the same amount of holes you started with. Always move, and hopefully you�re moving toward cover. Never stand there like a B29 and duke it out�that usually ends in both participants getting new holes.
As the years pass more and more of those who did not care for political correctness are leaving us...I fear those of us who say what we mean and mean what we say are now in the distinct minority...mores the pity..but that is for another forum...

As for training with Cooper, and Cirillo...yes those two were unique, but no more unique than some of the others who are still with us and from whom we can still learn..Shooting pistols over the years has been the vehicle that allowed me to meet some of the sports greatest, and I have been humbled and in awe many many times watching them show their profiency with arms of all kinds...and with few exceptions they have proven to be some of the finest people I have met..stalwart, forthright, and sincere...

There are some on the other side of the coin, but they don't need discussing...

Keep after it and always give it your best..

Tightloop
Wwe have had a number of very talented 'teachers' to help us learn the basics well and then work to perfect what works best for us..and our needs..
Few of us will have the same needs that Fairbairn & Sykes had policing in Shanghai..

This article below covers briefly some of the techniques taught and used over the years, including Bill Jordan, whose book 'No Second Place Winner' was one of the first I read when training years ago.Jim

http://www.spw-duf.info/point.html
What are Wegner's credentials...? I know Jordan, Cirillo, Cooper, et al, but who is Wegner..? At least when I read something by Ross Seyfried or Mike Plaxco or John Shaw, or Chuck Taylor...I know who they are and what their shooting accomplishments are...
Don't know anything about him other than his disclaimer at the bottom of his articles, which are mostly a compendium of shooting techniques safety, practice etc..Jim

Here's another article on safety, including dry fire practice..

http://www.spw-duf.info/safety.html#dryfire


and link to the home page..:

http://www.spw-duf.info/index.html
Well, at least he has an opinion and that is more than some folks have....

Like all Orange Gunsite graduates, I took some umbrage to his comments about my training site, but to each his own...
tightloop...He readily acknowleges that he doesn't agree with even some of the experts on points..and also encourages any who read what he has on his site to use their common sense, experience to develop their own personal practices.

For many who own handguns for defense( not necessarily you)the various topics & things he goes over might be eye openers...and encourage them to accompany-add to their ownership of a handgun for defense with more in depth understanding-training.Jim

I would add that he does have credentials, and offers training.
He lives in Show Low AZ( I lived there 18 years ago)..

http://www.spw-duf.info/training.html
A truck load of great pistol shooters live in Az...I will touch base with a few and see if they have heard of him...and what the consensus is...He might be the next GREAT thing...who knows...?
Well, he has compiled alot of good historical stuff and references to what others have tried and proven..and what else he has on his FREE site is worthwhile.
About 90% I'd estimate of folks who have a handgun for defense-home defense will never take a course or buy a book..:)

Who had heard of "Massad Ayoob" before he came on the scene..:)

...:)Jim
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Well, he has compiled alot of good historical stuff and references to what others have tried and proven..and what else he has on his FREE site is worthwhile.


+1

Some people love to teach, they share information freely out of love for the topic and with little thought of personal gain.

I get that impression from Mr Wenger's site.

Also apparent is that every word is carefully crafted and edited so as to be easily readable and yet give out no false information (did ya ever write an informational web page? If so you'll know what I mean).

This despite the fact that he freely communicates an awful lot of information.

OK, read Mr Wenger's site and then go here...

http://www.gunsite.com/

..and try to pick up any useful info.

I'm sure the guys at Gunsite are driven by ideals too, but they are definitely running a business. Even their "approved links" are to other businesses, I'll bet they sell the links.

Just my $0.02

Birdwatcher
Birdwatcher,
I am not a disciple of Mr Wenger, having only found his site a day or so ago as this thread evolved.
My younger brother is considering getting a CCW in Minnesota and I sent him the link.

There's alot there.
The sections on handguns, ammo and holsters is pretty good and should help folks make good choices based on their own situation and needs.

The section on deadly force, situational awareness and situational evaluations and knowing the rule of law is a CRITICAL part of the equation which some may not consider...but should.

The decision to carry has huge responsibilities and having made that choice years ago, I have found that my patience, tolerence and willingness to AVOID reacting poorly to the inevitable daily confrontations has increased tremendously.
'An armed society is a polite society'..and that "politeness" should start with those who carry and have that responsibility.
Best to ya, Jim

MUCH has changed since Orange Gunsite, since Jeff was no longer involved in daily teaching, even more since it changed hands...

When Jeff owned and ran it, it was his passion that was passed along to the students...I am sure that part is surely lacking now.

Assuming anything at all from a website can misleading...TOTALLY depends on who designed it and wrote the script...

Birdwatcher, have you ever taken a formal class on pistol shooting from one of the top folks in the country...like Gunsite, LFI, Thunder Ranch, Chapman, Barnhart, Leatham, or any of the rest? It is intense, competitive and informative...not for those looking for anything free, who want it given to them, or are concerned about how the website is written...not for those who are looking for a good time shooting, not for those who don't want to grow their knowledge base, and not for those who are a bit thin skinned. They are about learning from someone who can DO what you cannot, learning from someone who has been there, done that...about expanding your practical ability to meet situational expectations...

Individual practice is good, but you come away from one of these classes enthused, motivated, involved, and focused...I know I would get those things from Cunsite, Thunder Ranch, or a school with Robbie Leatham...Not just based on their website, but from personal interaction and knowledge...Not from Missouri, but I like them to " show me"....
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The section on deadly force, situational awareness and situational evaluations and knowing the rule of law is a CRITICAL part of the equation which some may not consider...but should.


In my case, you're preaching to the choir here....

Not much on Mr Wenger's site was new to me, in fact it has been up for at least a couple of years, expanded now from what I recall a couple of years back. But being familiar with the material I could appreciate how carefully it is packaged, all the way down to the photos of the effects of flash from the cylinder gap when practicing some of the shooting from close to the hip techniques.

When you're writing about something as critcaly important as self-defense with lethal force ya gotta be very careful of what you say and how you say it.

..and speaking of those low shooting hand postion techniques, since both Fairbairn and Wenger emphasize them, I expect I'll start. Putting your handgun out in front of you in every instance is likely the wrong thing to do... sometimes.

Although I expect the practice of any method where any part of your body is in front of the cylinder gap and especially the muzzle oughtta be approached with extreme caution.

Back to the original topic, it is interesting to compare the attitudes of our CQB crowd to the shooting fraternity when it comes to Sykes and Fairbiarn.

Those involved with the practical application of the martial arts, especially as it applies to military training, readily acknowledge a huge debt of gratitude to those two men for ushering in what is essentially the modern rea.

Acknowledgement for the same from the firearms crowd seems lacking, generally going back as far as Cooper, Weaver et al. in California in the 50's and 60's, and possibly as far as Applegate when pushed.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and state, since I still observe my fellow countrymen to some degree as a foreigner would, one of the character flaws common to many Americans is a sort of cultural egocentricism, I expect this is especially true of the handguns crowd.

Looking at Fairbairn and Syke's pioneering handgun tome, it is all at once concise, accurate, and his conclusions and methods have stood the test of time remarkably well.

The sum total of, and the circumstances of where those guys accumulated their experience and expertise is astounding, and indeed we are unlikely to see their like again.

Birdwatcher
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Assuming anything at all from a website can misleading...TOTALLY depends on who designed it and wrote the script...


If I put up a website with my name on it, it reflects upon me personally, no matter who designed it.

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Birdwatcher, have you ever taken a formal class on pistol shooting from one of the top folks in the country...like Gunsite, LFI, Thunder Ranch, Chapman, Barnhart, Leatham, or any of the rest? It is intense, competitive and informative


No of course not... grin

...but I expect all those things are true, and I would probably enjoy it enormously...

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...not for those looking for anything free, who want it given to them, or are concerned about how the website is written...


Why on earth not? What Mr Wenger presents is true and carefully written, and potentially of enormous value to the reader, ESPECIALLY a newbie like Jim's brother. Ergo Jim, an old salt himself, can still use it by referring others to it.

Gunsite OTOH, is selling a product, their website reflects that.

Look at the opening page of the Gunsite website, a row of guys in neatly pressed new cammy's, and a sum total of maybe $15,000 or more of M-16 clones, then browse through their website to see more on that theme.

The Gunsite website is aimed at the sort of guys who can take time off to travel halfway across the country and go first class all the way. I'll bet there are more than a few shiny new RV's in their parking lot.

That being said, none of the above implies that Gunsite ain't selling a good product.



Mr Wenger's site OTOH, seems aimed more at guys like me grin

Point of comparison, for the basic Arizona CCW class....

Gunsite... $100 1 day, for classes that "more than satisfy the Arizona 8 hour requirement...."

Wenger... $75. Two days. Maximum of 2 students per range session, $25 discount for each additional family member (same household) . "My Arizona Concealed Weapon Permit course has always exceeded the state mandate. I will continue to offer a two-day course even though the statutory mandate has dropped to eight hours. The first day's lecture portion should run around ten hours, depending on the number of questions the students have during the lecture. The second session, which includes the live fire training and mandatory testing, lasts about eight hours."
"While the CWP course is not primarily a shooting course, the range session includes some diagnostics, coaching on fundamentals and a strong tactical emphasis in those shooting exercises which are included. These include shooting from a protected-gun position at arm's length from the threat, one-handed shooting and shooting after having moved to standing and kneeling positions behind cover. One aspect of the tactical emphasis is the combination of movement and communication with shooting."


...I'll bet Jeff would have approved, although doubtless, commenting in his Royal "we", he would'a nitpicked some of the details.. wink

Birdwatcher
For those without regular access to a computer, a small paperback edition of STL is available from Paladin Press. IIRC, I got mine through Amazon, and have read it, or at least most parts of it, frequently, as it is of a handy size to take along in a pocket to such places as courthouses, where I have to kill much time and cannot be using a computer. (I wear a big-city police badge.) Someone here mentioned a few posts back the big-bore sixgun, and notably, STL indicates the big-bore snubby being a good weapon for the plainclothed man, as opposed to the uniformed police/soldier. In reference to autoloaders with no safeties, I do seem to recall the Late GREAT Jim Cirillo adopting a DAO auto in .40 at some point in his life; not sure how long he stayed with the concept, but I am totally happy with my duty SIG P229 DAK in .40 short and wimpy, though I have a slight preference for full-power .357 sixguns when on my own time, due to elephant-watching experience. (Borrowing the "elephant" term from Col. Cooper.) And, I will confirm that Chinese members of the Shanghai Municipal Police were issued Colt autos in .380, based on reading several sources.
Everything has its price, and they all seem to keep going up..

One true thing my pop told me was to buy the best you could afford and never look back...probably still holds true even for firearms training...

Jeff could be more than a little pompous in his teaching, and did look down his nose at a few things...but he was always open to see if something worked better than what he had and if it did, he would use it..

Don't kid yourself Birdwatcher, they both are selling a product..Gunsite is just a little more hi zoot than Wenger...and rightfully so...wonder how many of Mr. W's students have "seen the elephant" in the line of duty of otherwise? How many of his students have gone on to truly distunguish themselves within the firearms industry, be it training, journalism (although some are questionable at best)competitive shooting whatever...Not much difference in what they are selling except one is First Tier and one is not..Not saying Mr. W's info and topics, much less his training is not worthwhile...but it probably depends on your skill set when you sign up for a class..My guess is that Gunsite 150 probably turns out a better shooter on average than does Wenger...regardless of cost..

Jeff approved of bettering yourself in every aspect of life, be it shooting, history, writing....but he like me (maybe because he helped to mold my shooting) tried to get the best training that was avaliable...

And you don't strike me as the kind of fellow who would take any training just because it was cheap...bet your pop taught you better than that as well.
Ditto as to the .380 Colt autos for the Chinese members of the Shanghai force. I remember that from a lengthy article on Sykes and Fairbairn I read some time ago. It also said that Shanghai police regulations required their 1911 magazines to be altered to carry a maximum of 6 rounds!

BTW, in that same article - and I can't vouch for its accuracy - it was said that Sykes first met Fairbairn while Sykes was acting as a sales rep for the Colt company. And that was how Fairbairn was introduced to the .45 ACP. Or so the story went.

- TJM
tightloop... all good points.

Anyhow, back on the top of Fairbairn and Sykes.... here's a collection of pertinent articles from a British CQB site.

http://www.cqbservices.com/?page_id=46

Especially check out the article "W.E. Fairbairn, The Legendary Instructor" for info about Fairbairn in the postwar years.

I was wrong earlier, turns out this article has it that he left the service after the war and that he never received any official recognition from the British government...

Quote
As regarding �Cashing in� consider this fact - relying on his Pension wasn�t an option.

Fairbairn had retired from the SMP, the colony was overrun by the Japanese shortly after and was held until their surrender. After the war Shanghai was united with Communist China and as such the SMP ceased to exist, this meant Fairbairn had no income coming from his SMP pension at all....

SOE only existed as a temporary wartime department, it was created purely as a means to an end. Again I suspect that Fairbairn had realised this, although pensions were promised to its staff after the organisations closure MI6 (the arch-enemy of SOE) took over the SOE pensions. One only has to look to what happened to the late Gavin Maxwell (SOE weapons Instructor) to know that pensions for former SOE Instructors or Operatives weren�t really a priority for SIS. Sad to say but that was the fate for many of the people who served.

The Fairbairn-Sykes knife which bore his name had been mass produced by Britain, the United States and many other countries (along with variations), neither of the men who designed it received a penny in royalties for their selfless contribution.


Hard to imagine the Brits/Canadians/Americans would actually let him go, perhaps he was actually employed on a more clandestine level, certainly by then he had proteges serving with the American intelligence agencies.

With regard to Fairbairn and Sykes, from the same article...

Quote
Fairbairn and Sykes both taught different syllabuses.

These programmes of instruction had a shared beginning but evolved into completely different systems which were (on some points) completely at odd�s with the other.

Shocking to some but true - no matter what others would have us believe.

Fairbairn�s studies into self protection evolved into �Defendu�, it then progressed further into �Close Combat�. This was then later refined into the �Fairbairn System� or �Gutterfighting� during wartime.

Some core techniques were retained throughout, a fact is that they were not the same as the ones E.A Sykes�s was instructing to SOE�s recruits.

The first available copy we have of Sykes�s programme of instruction is SOE�s �Close Combat� syllabus (the Silent Killing Course) which was first released in June of 1942. Please bear in mind that prior to this date he had taught students with Fairbairn for two years, he had also been with SOE for less than five months.

Below are some comments he wrote about two core techniques of the Fairbairn system:

�Difficult to apply unless your opponent has lost his senses�

and more pertinently:

�Why bother?�

These are comments he made about two techniques which were retained throughout the evolution of Fairbairn�s systems. This is in no way meant to cast any aspersions as the physical veracity of Fairbairn�s techniques; it is included simply to show that the two systems were very different from one another.

To quote another of my instructors �In the trade, this is known as a clue�

Sykes�s syllabus was constantly revised and kept up to date until the end of the war, mainly from the experiences and information from operatives in the field. Simply put some of the techniques may have been the same but the emphasis was completely different.


FWIW, elswhere on his website the author, who seems to be well informed has it that Fairbairn was the knife expert and Sykes the gun expert of the duo.

Much here for further study.

Birdwatcher
While we know all about the evolution of our own handguns and training systems, I for one do remain pretty much clueless about the evelution of such in England.

Generally forgotten now, but the Brits had an exceedingly robust handgun tradition, with numerous opportunities in various "affrays" across the Empire to sort out what worked and what didn't, typically English gentlemen on foot facing determined opponents armed with edged weapons, exactly the sort of situation that later led to our own development of the .45 acp cartridge and the auto that fires it.

Astonishing how long the potential the revolver took to be recongnised, especially given that double action percussion smoothbore "pepperbox" revolvers had been around for a decade or more.

IIRC Colt began production of his "Paterson" revolver in 1836, but it wasn't until 1844 that Jack Hays' Texas Rangers famously showed what they could do when used rapid-fire as a primary weapon, Colt having gone bankrupt in the meantime due to lack of sales.

IIRC again, the .44 Colt Walker didn't achieve wide circulation until 1847. England adopted the '51 Navy as an official service in the 1850's just as we did, but by that time was already producing big bore, short barreled double action revolvers from .44 all the way up to .50 cal.

In service the .36 cal single action '51 Navy quickly proved too slow and too weak, the Brits going the big bore, double-action route and never looking back. I forget exactly when the first such handgun was adopted by the US Military, maybe the 1890's (???), forty years after the fact.

Where I'm going with this is, along with that early Brit adoption of functional fighting revolvers oughtta have come a functional manual of arms.

Earliest I've read about was in an old "Guns Annual" (which I no longer have) in which a guy named Wilfrid Ward wrote an article about the Brits dropping the Webley .445 in favor of the Enfield Mark 1 .380 revolver (one of which was my very first cartridge revolver, marked "1943", another gun I should never have sold).

IIRC Mr Ward had it that, to pass the British "Revolver School" of the 1920's, starting from a one-handed low ready, a candidate had one second to put a single round inside a 10" x 15" rectangle posted at chest height 30 feet away. It weren't exactly on a level with Sykes and Fairbairn in Shanghai, but it was prob'ly better than what we were doing in that same time period.

Anyhow, here's an article from that same CQB site that offers some interesting glimpses on the topic (bold emphasis mine)...

Quote
THE IRON HAND of WAR
British experiences in the development of combat shooting.


...a typical police force would take the top competitors and make them the force firearms instructors who would then stipulate the range facilities and training program. People teach what they know, and if you employ target shooters, they will teach target shooting.

This accounts for virtually every police/military pistol range being of at least 25yds length�. there is no tactical reason, it comes from sporting regulation...

Today liberal sentiment is highly critical of the British Empire, but whatever the faults it provided the British Army and Colonial Police Services with a wealth of experience. Tribal confrontations, border disputes and insurrections gave soldiers and police practical experience. From these ranks many radical thinkers emerged, men who realised that bulls-eye target shooting was a woefully deficient preparation for fighting.

I�ve heard of one officer who would take primed cartridge cases and press the case mouths into blocks of soap, forming a hard soap �bullet�. He would load these into his service Webley. In the garden he would have his servants surround him, armed with a variety of sticks and bludgeons, then at random rush him. Our hero would then respond with well-placed shots to his human targets, giving him practise in reactive accuracy....

The earliest influential figure in our study is Arthur Woodhouse, an officer with the United Provinces Police in India. The result of his experiments was offered in the �New Revolver Manual for Police and Infantry Forces� published in 1907, with the stated objective �to give sound advice on how to practise in order to become a good shot- and to urge more practical training. Woodhouse was a proponent of unsighted snapshooting for close range confrontations. The shot was fired by �whole hand squeeze� while the pistol was sweeping up through the target. As we will see, these two techniques form a common thread.

An innovation was his �revolver pit� a 20-yard circular bay enclosed by a 14-foot high mud wall. A series of target zones were marked on the wall, and the shooter had to engage them according to the random commands of the instructor. Scores were noted, then bullet holes filled with wet mud, which quickly dried in the Indian sun....

In the bloody hand-to-hand trench raiding of World War One many fearsome close-range impact and edged weapons were devised and employed (still on view in the Imperial War Museum). At hand to hand range, in ankle-deep mud the pistol was a valued weapon but again, bull�s-eye training proved inadequate. Captain Charles Tracy was a voice of reason. In his �Revolver Shooting in War�, published in 1915 he says � Fine drill method is one thing, revolver fighting is another�.

An advocate of the �whole hand squeeze� and �vertical lift�, like Woodhouse his preference was for the revolver rather than the semi-auto pistol. Tracy constructed a number of tactical training ranges, where his students could search a �ruined village�, or, navigate an �enemy trench�. Targets appeared, moved dropped. At night the student would wander into booby traps, which would detonate; briefly illuminating targets to be taken by snap-shot....

Noel wrote �How To Shoot With A Revolver� in 1918, followed by �The Automatic Pistol� in 1919 and a later [1940] abridged edition of �How To Shoot With A Revolver�. In Noel�s work we see links between Tracy and Grant-Taylor [particularly with the cocking of the gun in route to firing position]. Noel covers firing by �instinctive sense of direction� utilizing a contraction of the whole hand, as though �squeezing water from a sponge�, a 45-degree ready position and a vertical lift to threat.

He, also, created shoot houses with moving, falling, pop up, and knock down targets. In some cases, he even fitted a blank firing pistol to the hand of a 3D target so that he could cause the hand to raise and fire the gun at the student.

We know that Tracy eventually went on to command the �Southern Command Revolver School at Wareham� and that Noel went on to become a �revolver instructor� at the �Small Arms School at Hythe� under Major Dudley Johnson in 1921, but that�s all I have regarding them as instructors....

THE MAXIMS OF PISTOL SHOOTING...

...7] You seldom need a pistol, but when you do, you need it mighty badly.
...8] You cannot claim to be a pistol shot unless you are a fast shot
...9] Practice the correct handling of the pistol from the first, then you will handle it by instinct when the moment comes.

...14] Trigger pressing is the secret of pistol shooting.
...15] Pistol shooting is merely a matter of practice
...16] Don�t hang on to the trigger, release the finger fully after every shot.
...17] Learn not to fumble. Practice a clean, quick action in drawing and handling your pistol.

...20] Reload at the first opportunity. Always have a full magazine ready.

...22] Keep cool. Fire fast, but never faster than your �best speed� or you will miss every time.
...23] The art of quick shooting lies in perfection in the quick alignment of the sights, combined with an instinctive and automatic trigger squeeze.


Note the way-early developement of various moves towards a "practical pistol" course. Turns out even Sykes and Fairbairn "stood on the shoulders of giants".

Fascinating stuff.

Birdwatcher





Posted By: Birdwatcher Re: "Get Tough" on pdf ! - 08/07/07
Well it ain't about handguns, but Fairbairn's manual of unarmed combat from the same time period is also a gem.

Most of us of course being far better served with the knowledge of a few well-practiced and practical self-defense moves than we would with a lesser knowledge of more complex arts.

These moves are doubtless pretty good, input from people who know appreciated, I have heard that better defensive techniques are available, and apparently Sykes didn't think much of some of these in the book.

I'm gonna stress the caveat though, from the book...

Quote
I should like in conclusion to give a word of warning. Almost every one of these methods, applied vigorously and without restraint, will result, if not in the death, then certainly in the maiming of your opponent. Extreme caution, then, should be exercised in practice, care being taken never to give a blow with full force or a grip with maximum pressure.


Actually, its certainly recommended to practice with someone familiar with the martial arts.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:yfIwDKeasZMJ:www.tsroadmap.com/early/tough.pdf+get+tough+fairbairn+pdf&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Birdwatcher
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