The Cor-Bon DPX 110 +p .38 Special load is hotter that the Speer .38 Short Barrel load out of 2" barrels.

The Speer Gold Dot 135 grain "Short Barrel" .38 Special Load generates 224 ft pounds of muzzle energy from a 2" barrel.

The "Short Barrel" .357 generates 294 ft pounds of muzzle energy from a 2" barrel.

This information is from the Speer Website.

Recently "Combat Handguns" magazine tested the new "old"
model 40 S&W Centennial. One of the .38 loads tested is the
Cor-Bon DPX 110 grain Copper HP +p load.

According to Cor-Bon the DPX generates 1200 fps. A 110 grain
bullet at 1200 fps equals 352 ft pounds of energy.

The CH test result for the same load out of a 2" barrel was
1250 pps which calculates to 382 ft pounds.

I can tell you that the DPX is an intense load but manageable
in a Airweight S&W 2" revolver.

In my guns the GD and the DPX loads are about equal in
accuracy. Both shoot where the gun is pointed out to 14
yards.

I like Gold Dot ammo, but I believe I'll be carrying the Cor-Bon
110 grain DPX +p in my J-Frames.

The DPX .38 generates 24% more energey than the .357
Gold Dot.

I carry the GD Short Brl. 38+p's in my S&W 342. I also carry the GD Short Brl. 40S&W in my Glock 27. I'll check out the Cor-Bon's.

I'll stick with my GD Short Barrel ammo. It has most of the performance with less recoil, almost no muzzle flash and much less noise.

The Cor-Bon is a .357 mag in a .38 special case. It is WAY over pressure for anything with a .38 Special headstamp. It also has far too much muzzle flash for me...I'll pass.

Kevin,

I've called Cor-Bon. They assure me that all the ammo they manufacture is within specifications for the caliber.

It doesn't make sense for an ammo company to take the risk of exceeding maximum pressure. That kind of liability would cause their insurance carrier to drop them like a used rub... you know what I mean.

My belief is that (1) most companies load their ammo lower than max of the spec for liability safety and (2) many people don't try Cor-Bon because it is generally more expensive than other brands.

I recently shot two boxes of DPX through my 642. Recoil and flash were within acceptable limits.

Don't get me wrong I think GD is good ammo. But I'll take the additional 25% energy.

Hunter -

I just shot two boxes of DPX. It is accurate with acceptable muzzle flash and recoil.

My 642 has CTC LG405 Laser Grips which help with the recoil as well as providing real "shoot from the hip" capability.

Deputy_Norm,

I have always shied away from light bullets in all my .38 caliber handguns. How does the 110 grain Cor-Bon load perform in penetration testing? What's the muzzle flash like? Is the recoil manageable in a J Frame?

BTW, I have always used the FBI .38 Special 158 grain +P LSWCHP load in all my .38 caliber handguns, even my .357 Mag, for self-defense. As long as I can get 12 inches' penetration, I am happy!



Merry Christmas,

Mando

Hey Norm! How's the 410 derringer?????

I normally consider the 642 a last ditch weapon. I an not really concerned about anything but having it go bang with the muzzle pressed into a Perp's belly/chest/ear.

I am looking at a 642 right now. I am inclined to go with Speers for that reason.

I am a little concerned about over penetraion with the DPXs too.

Just my thoughts, random as they are . . .

BMT

I've had some bad experiences with Cor-Bon ammo. Their 115 gr. 9mm locked my Kahr K9 up tighter than a bank vault! The brass did not eject and the gun was locked up tight. Ever shoot any of it at night? Much brighter flash than more conventional ammo. Yes, I know, you don't get something for nothing. Some of that extra is a simple case of needing a more powerful cartridge and attempting to substitute for that need with the hyper load. Like Mando, the 158 gr. +P LSWC-HP gets the nod for my .38 Special carry loads. It does what I want a .38 Special to do.

I use their 185 grain Barnes bullet in 45ACP, its accurate, huge hollowpoint. Will this stuff destroy one of the older titanium smith and wessons not rated for 357??? I have one of the first Titanium guns and it is only rated for 38 special.

Norm,

Your quoted specs of 1200 fps with a 110 grain bullet made me immediately say, you can�t do that within the pressure limits of a .38 Special. My knee jerk reaction was from thinking back to the early Cor-Bon 110gr JHP .38 Special +P+ loads which were essentially .357 magnums in a .38 Special case. So I did a little research and found that your quoted velocity is wrong. The stated velocity on their web site is 1050pbs for 269 ftlbs: https://dakotaammo.net/shop/product_info.php?cPath=23_76&products_id=139

You�re off by nearly 100 ft lbs. What�s more, although the web site didn�t specify, I�d be willing to bet large sums of money that the quoted velocity is from a barrel length of greater than 4� and I wouldn�t be surprised if it was greater than 6 inches. When you put that load into a 2� barrel, it becomes just another .38 Special +P (and there�s nothing wrong with that). I�m not saying it�s a bad one, but it most certainly doesn�t turn your .38 Special into a .357 Magnum (which is perhaps the worst snubbie load one could imagine).

Now when you factor in the velocity loss you�ll get by shaving the barrel length down to two inches with the Cor-Bon DPX load, I�ll bet you end up with a muzzle energy nearly identical or slightly higher than the GDSB. But keep in mind, muzzle energy doesn�t stop aggressors, bullets do.

Now, let�s look at the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel. It�s quoted at 860 fps with a muzzle energy of 222 ftlbs FROM A 2� BARREL. But most importantly, the GDSB bullet is designed specifically for 2� barrels and the bullet performs perfectly at those velocities. I have done more than my share of ballistic gelatin testing, and I�ll tell you that when you switch from 4� barrel to a 2� barrel in .38 Special, there is a HUGE difference in performance. The famous �FBI� load (158 gr SWCHP) goes from being a perfect performing hollow point, to a non-expanding SWC.

I�ve noted the same for most any other bullet I�ve tried (the only exception being the Remington Golden Sabre). They perform perfectly with a 4� barrel, and turn into non-expanding solids out of a 2� barrel. Speer is the first maker to specifically design a bullet for the snubbie* and I�m impressed.

Now I must admit I�ve never tested the DPX in ballistic gelatin; those days are behind me and I�m happy to let others do it. So for all I know, it could be every bit as good or better than the GDSB; I just choose to carry what I know.

Rant mode on-
In the end, it all amounts to absolutely NOTHING. Expanding bullets don�t stop aggressors, good shooters placing either excellent or piss-poor bullets precisely on the mark is what stops aggressors. You need to think about the diameter of the hole you�re creating in relation to the overall size of the target (in this case, a person) you�re shooting. If a .35 in diameter hole doesn�t do the trick, do you really think a .50 in diameter hole will make a difference? Will two tenths of an inch mean the difference between hitting something vital or missing something vital on something that�s 18 inches wide and 5 or more feet tall? We place way too much faith in bullets, when we should be concerned about placing bullets where they matter.
Rant mode off-

The lesson here is; there is not ballistic free lunch. If you want .357 performance, you have to have a .357; simple as that.


*caveat � The Federal .38 Special Nyclad �Chief Special� was for snubbies, but that was more in relation to pressure, not bullet performance. Out of a 2� barrel, I noted that expansion was better than most, but the bullet still only expanded about 25% of the time and when it did, it was usually only on one side.

Ah, why not buy a .357 snubby to begin with?

Well, yes and no. Yes, if you want a snubbie .357, no if you want a good defensive gun.

The .357 is a lousy cartridge in a snub nosed revolver. A 125 gr JHP will net you a grand total of around 1140fps at best, compared to 1450fps in a 4 inch barrel. That�s a huge drop in performance for just 2� of barrel. Now add in the huge rise in recoil, noise and most importantly, muzzle flash, and it�s just not worth it. You end up with a 9mm (ballistically speaking) at best, and rip half your hand off in the process. The .38 Special +P gives you 95%+ the terminal performance of the 2� .357 magnum for less than 50% of the recoil and muzzle flash. Makes a whole bunch more sense to me.

And don�t think I�m a .357 basher, I�m a huge fan of the .357 mag. I just think there are much better choices as a combat cartridge.

My Smith .357 does not rip my hand off with the laser grips. Quite managble in fact. At 1140fps, I will be quite happy with it. I doubt very seriously your statement of ending up with a 9mm ballisticlly speaking. I have shot enough of both to know the difference. The best thing about it is you can shoot the .357 's all the time and have no appreciable effect on the handgun,but I doubt a steady diet of +P in a Airweight is condusive to handgun life.
This scenario is about the same as guys trying to convince every one that a .308 is an .06.

There are better cartridges out there than 38 +P also. In the end, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

You're absolute right about the statement that a .35 dia hole will do as much as a .50 dia hole as long as it is the the right place. Everything else is just numbers on a paper

GC,

I'm carrying the Buffalo Bore standard velocity 158 LSWCHP in my non +P rated Airweights. Shoots to POA and has very little muzzle flash.

JB

When we look at ballistic charts, you'll see that a 9mm moves a 124 grain bullet at an average velocity of 1150fps. In a 2" revolver, the .357 Mag moves a 125 grain bullet at 1140fps...That's about as close as it gets to identical...You're .357 is giving you 9mm performance, not .357 magnum.

By "know the difference" what do you mean?

Meaning it kicks alot harder and has a ton more muzzle blast, therefore it must be going alot faster...

Not a bad idea, however, make sure you get a barrel length long enough to allow a long ejector rod to completely clear the empty cases from the chambers. A cartridge case trapped under the extractor star will really be exciting to clear in the midst of a gunfight. And you'll probably have all the excitement you can stand that day without the extra problem.

JB,
I also like the Buffalo Bore 158 gr. LSWC-HP. I use the +P version of that in my 3" heavy barrel M65. It is rated to give over 1,100 fps from a 3" barrel. That puts it right in the good old .38/44 Heavy Duty range. It is controllable, is accurate, has a bullet designed to match the ballistic properties, and muzzle flash is not bad. That is a sensible place to be IMHO.

Trouble is you are comparing a 4-5" 9mm to a 2" .357. Back that 9 mm down the same barrel length and you are comparing apples to apples, and you sure as hell don't have 250 lbs or 1150fps out of the 2" 9mm then.

If the.357 mag snubby is to much for anyone in terms of muzzle blast and recoil, how is it that there is a ton of 41, 44 mags ,and now even 454's being sold in small revolvers. The guys that shoot them must be some kind of bionic super humans. But hey, they just kick harder and have more muzzle flash which doesn't mean they have more deliverable energy

By knowing the differnce, I have shot enough rounds into wet nespapers, dirt, dry newspapers,etc between the two to see the differnce in penetration is.I probably shoot 3-4K rouds a year out of 9mm, .357 and45 combined, I didn't just get off a turnip truck in the world of shooting

Again, quit depending on ballistic charts.

Silly me, relying on actual data.

Umm . . . .

Alex, I'll take ballistic gack for 200 please . . . . .



BMT

FWIW:

Kevin's best point is getting missed here:

HIT THE TARGET!

Drop a few bills on handgun training. I did. makes a world of difference.

I went here:

http://www.oregonfirearmsacademy.com/

And here:

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/

And I am a better shot and a better gunfighter for it.

When you consider the THOUSANDS we lock up in gunds tool, toys, and ammo, the money for teh classes is a pittance.

Merry Christmas,

BMT

....BMT...That's good advice!....Anyone have experience with the Glazer safety slug loads in the snubby 38's?

Olhippie:

Glasers will shoot through a pinky finger and then get lodged in the typewriter on the dorm room floor. They will not damage the floor in doing so.

A law School classmate of mine pulled this little stunt. he has not repreated the test, despite fequent requests.

Otherwise, they don't penetrate enough for social work (or so I am told).

BMT

BMT

I can back that up with first hand observation. In all my years as a paramedic, I did encounter a few people who were shot with Glaser Safety Slugs. The one incident that comes to mind was an attempted suicide that went wrong. The guy put a .45ACP under his chin and pulled the trigger. When I arrived, he was conscious, alert and in horrific pain. His entire face was puffed out like an over-filled balloon and his eyes looked like Quasimodo. But he took a contact distance Glaser and it didn�t penetrate enough to do killing damage to the brain. I suspect he�s probably somewhat of a vegetable now (although I have no idea). I did get to see the X-Ray and the bulk of the shot only made it about 1.5� with some shot extending about 4� into the cranium.

Glasers are "trick bullets" and IMHO I would not begin to trust my life or the lives of my loved ones to an unreliable bullet that depended upon some gimmick to do the work. Gimmicks often have a way of leaving you in a jam. We had quite a problem with coyotes, coons, feral canines and cats, on the farm at one time. I had bought some Glasers for my Colt Gold Cup .45 ACP and decided to see how they would perform on the raiders of my fowl stock. We had domestic chickens, turkeys, and a few ducks around the farm, as well as cattle and a horse or two. I shot quite a few critters with that .45 for a couple of years with various loads. I used a 200 gr. SWC, 230 gr. ball, 200 gr. Speer "Flying Ashtray", and several versions of the 230 gr. hollowpoint, along with the Glasers. The Glaser was the least dependable of any. On one animal they might blow the ribcage out the offside, the next the wound would be a surface crater on the entry side. I quit thinking of them as a reliable defensive alternative after seeing how radical their performance was. Now that was years back, maybe they've improved the design since. I still don't feel comfortable with anything that needs a gimmick to make it work.

Kevin & MOGC,

You guys have given most excellent advice.


Merry Christmas,


Mando

To the best of my knowledge the 9mm is prob'ly the best 2" revolver load, the faster-burning powders giving .357 equivalent ballistics out of that length barrel without the attendant flash and blast.

I'm as flash and recoil-tolerant as anyone, but I'd not want to discharge a .357 snubbie anywhere indoors without hearing protection. Especially as I could do about as well with a good .38plusP.

In that regard I'm still using the ol' "FBI" 158 grain LSWCHP PlusP load. Old habits are hard to break I guess.

Birdwatcher

Man you said it. In one test I did, I compared ballistics on a Taurus 905 to a S&W 340PD. As already mentioned, the .357 mag 125 grain bullet averaged 1140 fps. But the much less powerful 9mm average 1060 fps. True, the magnum had a velocity advantage, but look at what 80 fps costs you. Huge muzzle flash, muzzle blast and noise. With the 9mm there was very little flash, muzzle blast, but there was noise. Recoil was most certainly stiffer than any .38 Special +P but still a long way from the .357.

Coupled with full moon clips, I think 9mm is the absolute best small frame revolver round. My only complaint is there are no LW small frame revolvers made in 9mm, and most 9mm revolvers are rather heavy for their size.

Mando -

Can't go wrong with a proven load. I can't argue your choice.

Besides ammo is only a part of the equation. Hitting the boiler room is even more important.

Glaser makes standard and +p load in .38 Special.

Both are impressive on milk jugs. If you are concerned about shooting +p in your snubby, I believe the standard pressure load will do the job.

So, how much trouble would it be to take something like a S&W 442/642 and have the cylinder worked to take full-moon clips and 9x19s instead of, or in addition to .38Specials? Ditto, same same with something like a lightweight .357?

I sure wish I had gotten my hands on a S&W 940. I asked S&W if they were going to re-issue the 940. No plans to do so at present.

BMT - The Bond .410/45 is more fun than should be legal. My grandsons (14 and 9 and both mui macho) love to shoot it.

Best loads -
.45 Colt Gold Dot - accurate.
.410 Winchester 3" 000 5 pellet buckshot - hand size group
at 7 yards and best penetration of the loads I've tried.

Re the DPX next time out I'll do my wet newspaper and stack of magazine penetration test. Not very scientific but informative.

Merry Christmas.

FWIW here are a few factory loads I've chrono'd. (I have much more data for light reloads.)

Rossi 2" .357 with: 38 Special Win 125 grn JHP 860 fps
Rossi 2" .357 with: .357 mag Rem 125 grn JSP 1260 fps
S&W 360 1 7/8" .357 with: .357 mag Win 125 grn JSP 1100 fps
Kahr PM9 3" 9mm with: Fed Amer Eagle 115 grn RN 1050 fps

Not saying that those are the loads I'd choose, just what I have personally chrono'd.

The .357 S&W 360 was the most brutal gun I've ever fired, especially with the cylinder full of warm 170 JHC reloads I'd forgotten to shoot in my 686 before I sold it,... but I loved carrying that scandium 360!

Conversely, the 9mm is VERY user friendly as far as the power I get versus the recoil and muzzle flash. I now have the Kahr P9 w/ night sights instead of the PM9, as I like the feel better and it's not much bigger.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corbon%2038%20Special%20Ammo.htm

The California Department of Corrections used Glasers in their H&K's for over a decade. They are very conservative and dont buy "trick" anything. Still the reason they used them was to avoid penatration.

I like heavier bullets because they penatrate, and because my snub nosed 38 might have to perform other tricks besides self defense against humans.

I work at Pelican Bay State Prison, and so I live in a remote rural area and work around livestock too. I carried my snubbie to many Jr. Livestock shows because the combination of big animals and small children made it a prudent thing to do. As much as I respect Cor-bon, a 110 grain bullet isn't the ticket for that kind of scenario.

Energy is a pretty nebulous concept to hang your hat on when considering a round for your CC Weapon.

I too went to Thunder Ranch, taking my son with me. It stands out as one of the best investments I have ever made.

When I train people who want to carry pistols, I recomend using affordable ammunition so that you can practice. I honestly feel a good 158 grain semi-wadcutter lead bullet is a good choice for use in a 38 Special.

At the end of the day, bullet choice won't make anywhere near the difference as bullet placement.

If a 38 special isn't enough, what about a Charter Arms Bulldog in 44 special? Wouldn't that give more penetration and stop the bad guy quicker than a light bullet 38 loading?

The 158 grain Lead Semi Wad cutter Hollow point is a very good 38 Special load
Going to a lighter faster bullet in the 38 in order to a marginal increase in energy figures is a step in the wrong direction. The 38 is limited in its ability to penetrate with the lighter slugs (110 grains) especially and a lack of penetration is never a good thing, as Kevin Gibson pointed out with his example of the 45 ACP Glaser slug that failed to penetrate enough to be fatal in an attempted suicide.

AMEN.

BMT

I like teh buckshot. As a last ditch wepon, that could be nasty.