At the gun shop I saw an Ithaca 1911 A1 with correct US military markings. Excellent condition (looks nearly new), except the serial number was strange. Looked like it was put on amateurishly in large font. I asked the owner and he said it was a "lunch box gun." He explained that it was likely either made from parts that were smuggled out by a worker from the Ithaca factory during WWII or it was smuggled out whole before it got a serial number. Later, in order to make it legal, the police department put a serial number on it when it came into the hands of a cop who inherited it from his father.

They want $800.00 out the door for it. My question is, since this is not really a military 1911 A1, is it worth $800.00? I mean, it probably never had its parts fitted together to factory standards, i.e., it was likely made from freshly made Ithaca parts that were smuggled out one by one. Looks practically new, though. It looks great, in fact, until you notice the odd serial number. Is this a risky purchase, or a "jump on it" deal? Thanks.

Back in the '60's I was stationed for a while at a USN shore facility in SEA where the quarterdeck watch was armed with a 1911 that was passed from watch to watch. It was an Ithaca. You never know, Hawkeye, it might have been put together better than factory specs. As far as value, I'm not one to comment on that. I have no knowledge of collector value. If I saw it and it looked good to me, I'd offer the guy six and a half and negotiate from there.

The negotiation boat already sailed. It was priced at $900.00 plus tax. I asked him if he'd take $800.00 "out the door," and he said he would. He allowed me some time to think about it.

Never buy the story, only buy the gun. If it's not a properly marked Ithaca, it's not an Ithca, period. Now that said, doesn't mean it's not a good gun, but my bet is, it's rather over priced for something built up on a less than righteous receiver.

YEP!

Both the receiver and the slide are properly marked and are clearly Ithaca made. Even the space marked for the serial number is correct, except what follows it is not a factory type serial number (it clearly left the factory with no serial number). No effort was even made to make the serial number look "factory." Font size and type are way off. Looks just like a police department armoror (who didn't give a crap what it looked like) put it on there. Other than the serial number, though, it is clearly an Ithaca WWII era 1911. But since both you and T Lee would have reservations at this price (an Ithica in this condition would normally be over two thousand dollars, by the way), I think I will pass on it. I might feel differently if I could test fire it, but short of that I am now leaning away from the deal.

If you want it, get it.

If not, pass.

I would much rather have a perfect WWII Ithical representative, i.e., one with factory engraved serial number, but seems to me that even just for the parts it would be worth what the guy's asking (says "United States Army," "Ithaca," and "US Property" in all the right places). Thing is, though, I was planning on using that money to square me up with my credit card debt, which is why I'm even debating the purchase, really. Otherwise, if it was just spare cash, I'd go for it I think. Maybe I'll sleep on it.

Either you're wanting it, and trying to convince yourself not to get it (in which case you'll kick yourself later), or you don't want it, and are trying to talk yourself into it (in which case you'll kick yourself later).

Which one is it?

If only I had the answer to that question, I'd know just what to do.

There are just soooo many of us who have that affliction.

I know it well............. too well..............

No.

I mean, it probably never had its parts fitted together to factory standards, i.e., it was likely made from freshly made Ithaca parts that were smuggled out one by one.

Just because the SN looks odd doesn't mean it's not factory. To me, it just simply wouldn't be worth the chance though.

If you're really getting into collecting, you should've flown in to Tulsa last weekend. It is THE collector show. There was tons of collector stuff there. Evidently the big-time collector's are even nervous about Obama and are divesting themselves of their high-dollar stuff before something comes down. Knowing some of these clowns personally, I have to chuckle a bit.

Nah. Ithaca probably didn't start serial numbers with XX. The number's not even in a straight line. It clearly looked like whoever did it didn't give a crap what it looked like, or about consistency with all the other authentic markings. Their only concern was obviously just to make it legal to own and register in New York (which is where I am at the moment).

well, one thing I would NOT worry about is the fitting issue, since any .45 that stayed in service for very long got parts replaced out of an armorer's drawer, and factory hand fitting was minimal to non-existent on wartime production 1911s. I've heard about lunch box guns, but never saw one, it that's what it is.

the prices being paid for original WWII vintage .45s are breathtaking these days....but if it were me, I'd hold out for one without the squirrelly serial number.

The only lunchbox gun I've seen was a Colt's. It had no serial number, no inspector's mark, but did have the "US Property" mark.

As Steve suggests, the fit isn't an issue.

A single X at the beginning of a serial number indicates an arsenal re-work of a stolen gun. I have seen one so marked. The guns were marked at the various arsenals.

Are there any other markings on the pistol? If not, you may be correct that it was a lunchbox gun.

Every other mark on the gun is identical to a WWII Ithaca 1911 A1. Even the word "No." (for serial number) is there and in perfectly correct form, but it left the factory with a blank following it. The only thing non-standard about it is the serial number.

That's reassuring. Maybe I will go back today and take a more careful look at it. Maybe I'll even field strip it.

I would not give any more than $400.00 for it.

Gun stores usually have at least a 50% mark up on used guns and I'll bet the owner paid no more than 350.00 for it.

It's on consignment. No way anyone's getting a near mint condition WWII era Ithaca USGI 1911 A1 for $350, or anything close to that these days, funky serial number or no.

I would give it serious consideration but would ask for a three day inspection privilege.

A copy of Charles Clawson's book, "Collectors Guide to Colt .45 Service Pistols Models of 1911 and 1911 A1" would be very helpful in your search. Look for the 3rd edition (it's out of print), the early full sized editions are selling for around $900. You should be able to find the small 3rd edition for under $75. Goddard's book is good as well (a collector needs both).

Good luck...

+1 on both issues.

If you want it because it's there & you want it, then get it, tho from your own description, I doubt it's a collector.

A genuine Ithaca will run you for $1200 - $2200.

MM

I have to say that it is a genuine Ithaca WWII era 1911 A1. It just never got a serial number before leaving the factory, and never made it to military issue. Misses the mark for a collector piece, because what collectors want is USGI, and this never got issued, so is not technically USGI.

Hello
The Ithaca Built 1911's were Hand fitted, so the Hunch of it being a lunch Box Gun is merly a Rumor the gun shop owner wanted to add to it to make the sale more Color full. Here is some information I found on the Ithaca 1911's you may find intresting. Most Ithacas I have seen are rough in finish and fit as they were stressed to get them out for the War Effort. The recent ones I have seen for sale bring an average of $800.00-$1000.00 for Nice examples. I would not expect tack driver results from one as they were designed to be used up close and personal as a duty side arm. Regards, Thegeneral.





Ithaca (M1911-A1)
Ithaca started production in December of 1942 and was the only established firearms company to produce 1911A1s other than Colt. The total number of pistols produced by Ithaca was 335,466. In early 1942 & 1943 Ithaca did not have all the equipment necessary to manufacture the components so they received parts from other contractors that included 6,200 WWI receivers that Springfield had in storage. These early Colt receivers (frames) can be quickly identified by the cut-outs under the stocks. Colt also supplied many of the small parts. Harry Howland of Ithaca designed a stamped trigger assembly that was approved by the Ordnance Department. This stamped trigger was fabricated by the Yawman Metal Products Co. of Rochester N.Y. and became known as the Yawman Trigger. The new trigger was adopted by all other pistol manufacturers by early 1943, except Colts who changed in April of 1944. Changing to the stamped trigger alone reduced the cost of the 1911A1 by about 5%. Later in the war Ithaca also designed a serrated Grooved hammer as a cost reduction but none of the other manufacturers adopted it. Ithaca pistols were probably the coarsest finished pistols of any 1911A1. This seems puzzling since they were previously a manufacturer of sporting shotguns and as such they must have appreciated the importance of cosmetic appearance




1943 856405-916404 Ithaca
1208674-1279673 Ithaca
1441131-1471430 Ithaca
916405-1041404 Remington Rand
1279699-1441430 Remington Rand
1471431-1609528 Remington Rand
1041405-1096404 US&S Co.
1096405-1208673 Colt
1279674-1279698 Renumbered Augusta Arsenal 753224
1944 1609529-1743846 Colt
1743847-1890503 Ithaca
1890504-2075103 Remington Rand 465575
1945 2075104-2134403 Ithaca
2619014-2693613 Ithaca
2134404-2244803 Remington Rand
2380014-2619013 Remington Rand
2244804-2380013 Colt 618510
Other X2693614-X2693665 Renumbered Raritan Arsenal X2693666-X2693785 Renumbered RIA X2693786-X2693885 Renumbered Ord. in Tokyo Arsenal X2693886-X2694996 Renumbered several U.S. Arsenals X2694997-X2694998 Renumbered RIA 1954-1955 X2694999-X2695198 Renumbered Ord. in Tokyo Arsenal 1955 X2695199-X2695201 Renumbered Raritan Arsenal 1955 X2695202-X2695210 Renumbered RIA 1955-1956 X2695211-X2695212 Renumbered Minn. Mil. Dist. Arsenal 1957 Total: 4985 Total all sources 1912-1965 - 2,769,094

RUSSIAN CONTRACT 1915-1916-C50000-C84000 (These pistols were selected at random from the above serial numbers and marked ANGLO ZAKAZIVAT.)

NORWEGIAN CONTRACT 1912-C10000-C13000

BRITISH CONTRACT .445 CALIBER 1915-1916-W83001-W111000 (The majority of these guns were issued to the Royal Navy. In 1942, they were reissued to the Royal Air Force. At this time they were handstamped on the frame R.A.F. or RAF.

Inspectors REMINGTON U.M.C. Major E.E. Chapman, Inspector Lt. Arthur E. Evans, Sub-inspector Lt. Paul M. Buzby, Sub-inspector

COLT F.B. Austin Lt. R.W. Chandler T.L. Childs E.H. Dewey Col. Guy H. Drewry Andrew H. Forsythe F.L. Hosmer Lt. Charles G. Howe A.L. Hallstrom Cpt. Walter T. Gorton K.S. Morse Maj. W.G. Penfield Charles F. Rogers W.E. Strong D.A. Turner Col. Robert Sears

REMINGTON RAND Col. Frank J. Atwood LTC Harrison Shaler

ITHACA Col. Frank J. Atwood

UNION SWITCH & SIGNAL Col. Frank J. Atwood LTC R.C. Downie

SINGER LTC John K. Christmas

Hello
The Ithaca Built 1911's were Hand fitted, so the Hunch of it being a lunch Box Gun is merly a Rumor the gun shop owner wanted to add to it to make the sale more Color full. Here is some information I found on the Ithaca 1911's you may find intresting. Most Ithacas I have seen are rough in finish and fit as they were stressed to get them out for the War Effort. The recent ones I have seen for sale bring an average of $800.00-$1000.00 for Nice examples. I would not expect tack driver results from one as they were designed to be used up close and personal as a duty side arm. Regards, Thegeneral.





Ithaca (M1911-A1)
Ithaca started production in December of 1942 and was the only established firearms company to produce 1911A1s other than Colt. The total number of pistols produced by Ithaca was 335,466. In early 1942 & 1943 Ithaca did not have all the equipment necessary to manufacture the components so they received parts from other contractors that included 6,200 WWI receivers that Springfield had in storage. These early Colt receivers (frames) can be quickly identified by the cut-outs under the stocks. Colt also supplied many of the small parts. Harry Howland of Ithaca designed a stamped trigger assembly that was approved by the Ordnance Department. This stamped trigger was fabricated by the Yawman Metal Products Co. of Rochester N.Y. and became known as the Yawman Trigger. The new trigger was adopted by all other pistol manufacturers by early 1943, except Colts who changed in April of 1944. Changing to the stamped trigger alone reduced the cost of the 1911A1 by about 5%. Later in the war Ithaca also designed a serrated Grooved hammer as a cost reduction but none of the other manufacturers adopted it. Ithaca pistols were probably the coarsest finished pistols of any 1911A1. This seems puzzling since they were previously a manufacturer of sporting shotguns and as such they must have appreciated the importance of cosmetic appearance




1943 856405-916404 Ithaca
1208674-1279673 Ithaca
1441131-1471430 Ithaca
916405-1041404 Remington Rand
1279699-1441430 Remington Rand
1471431-1609528 Remington Rand
1041405-1096404 US&S Co.
1096405-1208673 Colt
1279674-1279698 Renumbered Augusta Arsenal 753224
1944 1609529-1743846 Colt
1743847-1890503 Ithaca
1890504-2075103 Remington Rand 465575
1945 2075104-2134403 Ithaca
2619014-2693613 Ithaca
2134404-2244803 Remington Rand
2380014-2619013 Remington Rand
2244804-2380013 Colt 618510
Other X2693614-X2693665 Renumbered Raritan Arsenal X2693666-X2693785 Renumbered RIA X2693786-X2693885 Renumbered Ord. in Tokyo Arsenal X2693886-X2694996 Renumbered several U.S. Arsenals X2694997-X2694998 Renumbered RIA 1954-1955 X2694999-X2695198 Renumbered Ord. in Tokyo Arsenal 1955 X2695199-X2695201 Renumbered Raritan Arsenal 1955 X2695202-X2695210 Renumbered RIA 1955-1956 X2695211-X2695212 Renumbered Minn. Mil. Dist. Arsenal 1957 Total: 4985 Total all sources 1912-1965 - 2,769,094

RUSSIAN CONTRACT 1915-1916-C50000-C84000 (These pistols were selected at random from the above serial numbers and marked ANGLO ZAKAZIVAT.)

NORWEGIAN CONTRACT 1912-C10000-C13000

BRITISH CONTRACT .445 CALIBER 1915-1916-W83001-W111000 (The majority of these guns were issued to the Royal Navy. In 1942, they were reissued to the Royal Air Force. At this time they were handstamped on the frame R.A.F. or RAF.

Inspectors REMINGTON U.M.C. Major E.E. Chapman, Inspector Lt. Arthur E. Evans, Sub-inspector Lt. Paul M. Buzby, Sub-inspector

COLT F.B. Austin Lt. R.W. Chandler T.L. Childs E.H. Dewey Col. Guy H. Drewry Andrew H. Forsythe F.L. Hosmer Lt. Charles G. Howe A.L. Hallstrom Cpt. Walter T. Gorton K.S. Morse Maj. W.G. Penfield Charles F. Rogers W.E. Strong D.A. Turner Col. Robert Sears

REMINGTON RAND Col. Frank J. Atwood LTC Harrison Shaler

ITHACA Col. Frank J. Atwood

UNION SWITCH & SIGNAL Col. Frank J. Atwood LTC R.C. Downie

SINGER LTC John K. Christmas

Hawk, here are a few photos of a re-numbered 1911. Note the arsenal and inspector's marks are on the gun. This is an excellent example of the detail in Clawson's book (and the reason it is commanding such high prices).

http://www.coolgunsite.com/images/1911/xrework/xrework.htm

There are photos of a "lunchbox" gun on the site as well...

that is uber cool

only you can determine if you want the pistol bad enough.
But I will tell you my story.
Recently I acquired a remington rand, in a 1942 holster. Part wise it was ALL there. Except, you could tell in had at some point been refinished, quite well by the way, but the ordance stamp on the right rear was very faint. And, the serial number, was a little below the No. instead of being directly in line with it. I have no idea why the serial number was positioned a little off.
I paid more than you would pay for the holster/pistol, and I am quite happy with it. These old girls were made a long time ago, and even IF i paid a little to much, time will take care of it.
My regret was about five years ago turning down a ithaca for about 500 bucks, that had some rust parts on it.
Couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Her is a pic of an early Ithaca with the cutouts referenced in Clawsons book, the frames like this were made by Colt and sent to Ithaca for the reasons stated by Clawson, I have the Pistol which was also reworked by Rock Island Arsenal. You should remove the grips and if the frame looks like this I would buy it.

Glen

The frame you are illustrating is of a WWI era 1911. The gun I was considering was a WWII era 1911 A1. I very much doubt that unique look also characterizes the Ithaca 1911 A1.

My guess is that someone has removed the serial number because they were worried about the US Property Bit.

You can have the ATF assign a serial number for a gun. Maybe that is what happened.

Her is a pic of an early Ithaca with the cutouts referenced in Clawsons book, the frames like this were made by Colt and sent to Ithaca for the reasons stated by Clawson, I have the Pistol which was also reworked by Rock Island Arsenal. You should remove the grips and if the frame looks like this I would buy it.

Glen
These were 1918 Colt frames sent to Ithaca because Ithaca could not get ramped up in time too meet the requirements for WWII, all referenced in Clawsons book on the .45 1911&1911-AI

I bought an Ithaca M1911 from a collector friend of mine about 10 years ago and was looking for any info regarding the serial number. One side of the gun is marked Ithaca Gun Co. Inc. (this is on the top slide) Below those words is Ithaca, N.Y.. Then right below the slide on the housing is marked United States Property. Then on the other side of the gun on the main housing right above the trigger it is marked No 30xxx. There are actually numbers in the place of the x's but I wanted to know if anyone knew why it only has 5 numbers as the serial number as others I have researched seem to have more numbers in the serial number. Any info. would be appreciated!