Hi folks,

Been more than a few random forced entries around my area over the past 6-8 months in addition to the increase in home burgleries. I have 3 women living in my house and need to dream up a suitable firearm for them to use in the event I'm not around.

I have a Smitty 357 in my sock drawer and a 25 semi in the night stand. The issue is the 357 has a 8" barrel - not exactly handy, and the 25 auto........well I think I could shoot myself and have to look if I got shot.

I'm thinking a 9mm in a Taurus (PT series) or a Ruger (P95). I want something fairly light, handy, that won't recoil into next week.

Ideas?

I would go with a 20 gauge tactical shotgun. Under stress a handgun is hard to control, unless the women in your house practice with a handgun on a regular basis.

Pump shotgun


Mike

That's really good advice in my book. You can get a Maverick 88 (Mossberg 500 spin off) for around $200 or a little more. Different models are available but there's one that has a seven or eight round magazine and 20" bbl. Since you mentioned handguns and two in particular, of the two you mentioned I'd go with the Ruger P95.

Pump 20 gauge, and a S&W Model 10 .38Special.

A Glock 17 or 19 wouldn't suck, either.

...everyone worries about the "hardware"..worry about the "software" first....as in the ladies attitudes and abilities. Guns are not a "one size fits all" proposition...and either is defending oneself. If these women don't first get a survival mindset the house could be full of guns and it would do them no good.

Do these women even know how to shoot? If they have no clue and they really are interested in protecting themselves with a gun tell them to go get a basic pistol course under their belt and they see if the police or the NRA have a self-defense class like the Personal Protection in the Home course in your area... Then "they" can choose the mode of self-defense that is best for them...not you...

Bob Makowski

Can't do better than a good old Smith & Wesson Model 10. The very definition of simple, safe, and effective (loaded with modern ammo), and very few women find it too big or powerful to handle. You can find them cheap, too. A nice set of after market grips, and you're set.

Some good advice here.

I am concerned with a shotgun for defense purposes. How handy is a shotgun when reaction time is measured in seconds? I have several shotguns within reach and it wouldn't occur to me to reach for one if someone was in my house or about to be. My 357 is within reach of my bed, my 25 is in the top drawer of my dresser sitting at the door to my bedroom. I can have either within seconds if need be. I honesty believe I could get to a handgun even under duress of someone demanding cash/valuables/etc. Give me 5 seconds and you will have a hole in you in my house as things are currently set.

Which brings us to preparation of the women. They have shot handguns but I would not call them "able" - especially if under duress of the moment. I have committed to teaching them to shoot - they are willing - and have found a local handgun course.

My first thought was a 38 revolver. I've tried both double and single action simulating an intruder situation. I'm not overly deadly beyond ~ 20 feet with a small revolver. I'm sure my womenfolk couldn't hit the inside of the house - from inside the house shooting double action. A friend of mine just went through this same analysis and bought a smallish 9mm. He reports his wife and kids are pretty darn capable and accurate with it - hence why I'm considering a similar choice.

Why the shotgun approach?

In close quarters where I can be stationary, I'll take the shotgun everytime. If someone comes into my house I doubt I'll go out to search for them.

Only the self disciplined and well taught should consider a semi auto for self defense especially when awakened from a deep sleep. The 38/357 in revolver format is the most viable of all defense weapons. Just point and shoot.

Shotguns are great for real stopping power in a home defense situation, but they must be used like a rifle up close. Not ideal in many situations. E

A couple of things.
Whatever you get them, it must not be availiable to the break in artists. During the day, don't leave it in the bedroom. That's where they look first.
Second, they must be able to shoot it well. Even if all they can shoot well is a .22 rimfire, that's alot better than nothing.
Something simple and very straight forward to use would probably be best. Based on my understanding of such things, a Glock pistol or a good DA revolver would be it. Or something very similar. Probably nothing bigger than a 9mm or a .38 Special. E

Be advised that all my advice is based on the weapons being secure from unauthorized use. ie no kids in the house and the women at least know not to fool with them if they can't themselves handle them.

Two schools of thought. One is that when you wake up you are disoriented and unable, for a few moments, to think straight. Folks that subscribe to this like autos such as your Taurus, because they have to have things done to them, when kept in a sensible mode anyway, before they will shoot. This gives the shooter time to adjust to being awake and actually identify his target, making sure it should be a target.

The other school of thought is that if you need it you need it fast and it should be instantly available and easily manipulated. The latter is true because as in the former scenario, you lack fine motor skills upon awakening.

I think the two schools both have merit and it depends on the person. I awaken pretty fast and am good-to-go. My wife and kids many times are groggy for a long time after waking up. They seem to have no "instant on" setting, being similar to the old timey TV's that had to warm up before getting a picture. For this reason, and some others, I think you need warning systems and blocking systems in place so you aren't awakening to somebody standing over you. A dog, thorn bushes, possibly not bars on the doors and windows, but at least the holes in your house should be secure enough that you will hear somebody breaking in. For this reason, some of the other decisions you make regarding potential invasive scenarios may be much more important than gun, caliber, etc.

There are a lot of weapons that will do. The Taurus you mention is a fine choice. Do you have much experience with semi-autos? Do you want it? If you are comfortable with the .357, it is a great choice. It was king of the hill in one-shot stops on the Marshall Index for a long time. Stoked with decent ammo, you just can't do any better. A Smith 686, Ruger GP-100, Security or Service Six, Smith 66 or 27, Colt Python or Trooper-any of these with a 4-6" barrel would be excellent. I wouldn't rule out the long barreled one you already have either, though it's not optimal. Several Taurus and Rossi revolvers are good ones too. I would not choose a brand-new Smith due to the internal safety which is both unneeded and prone to failure at the most inopportune time. Stick with a used Smith.

Yep.

Cole - good well thought out post, much to consider.

When I started this process I was looking at the Ruger Gp100 series - nice, short, balanced, etc. I thought dang near perfect.

As to the prevention strategies other than weapon, I agree 100%. The glass break sensors are located in areas that cover every window in my single story house. I also have bushes around my house and elevated windows. I doubt someone could simply break the glass and crawl in - it would require assistance or a stool of some sort. Then there is the issue of the 75 lb barking maneater (sounds ferocious but isn't). That dog barks at anything outside - especially if my motion lights go off.

I feel pretty dang secure but I don't see any way around a forced entry in one form or another. I had a forced attempt when I was young - it is a bit disconcerting to know someone is trying to get into your for nefarious purposes........

Dudeman was shot 3 times with a shotgun from ~ 60-75 yards but made it to his house and the hospital. He was simply charged with Criminal Trespass.

My school of thought: An accessible, idiot-proof handgun of sufficient caliber... to buy you time to get to the scattergun. YMMV

Great minds Sir. Would make one good to go.

Women can be kinda funny about what they like in a gun. It's usually better if they pick it (from a set of viable alternatives) than you pick it for them. See if you can get them to a rental range or some other place they can try various choices out.

I'm no expert by any means but I've been around the block a bit. My feeling is simple is better, especially when things get stressed. That's why I endorsed the pump shotgun as a HD tool. A pump SG is used for many types of hunting as well as trap shooting and so on. The more you use something, the better you become with it. Getting a firearm that you can use for many tasks only gives reasons/excuses to use said tool. Same thing with a DA revolver. The last handgun that I bought (and maybe the last one I'll ever buy) was a S&W M19-4 in .357 magnum. It fits my hands like it gets paid for it, it's VERY accurate, and I never knew what a smooth DA trigger pull was until I got this guy. It sits at arms reach at night with a speedloader and Maglite next to it. I also keep loaded and ready to go a SIG P220 45 auto that is reasonably accessible next to a loaded spare 8 round magazine and my Remington 870 with reduced recoil no. 4 buckshot. Have an immediate action response. Have a remedial action response. Remember, when you're backed into a corner nobody can sneak up behind you!

Look at it from the bad guys perspective, would you want to be looking down the barrel of a shotgun, that would have to be pretty intimidating! I agree with Reloader28, keep it simple by using a quality revolver, nothing to have to remember except pull!
I teach a ladies only handgun class 3 times a year & even when they get pretty confident & know their gun quite well it can all go out the door in a hurry when you put them in some sort of stressful situation, actually thats the case for men also, but as a rule the men shoot more often than women. When we ask the women to hurry & load the mag into the gun, rack the slide, make sure the safety is off, etc & tell them they are being timed, they can fumble unless they get lots of practice.
I've said before, back when most law enforcement agencies started making the switch from revolvers to semi autos it was a huge learning curve to be able to quickly & confidently run the controls on the semi's.....for a long, long time, many of the old timers could never make the adjustment, they stuck with what worked.
I guess the main thing is, you need to know your gun, that & don't try to get by with a 25 auto or some of the other small guns, unless you don't have a choice.

Dick

Besides an alarm system and firearms I have a remote control for two wall sconces and a strip of lights over my computer armoire in our living room. I have a remote clicker in the bedroom and it will turn the lights on from in our bedroom. The lights coming on may cause an intruder to look around for the source that turned them on and may give me an edge.

Good thought. Every advantage counts.

I'm going to dissent from the idea that a pump shotgun is "ideal" when compared to a handgun for home defense.

(1) The shotgun, even in pistol grip configuration, is large and heavy and could be impossible to mount/aim/hold on target depending on where you are when the attack begins. Here's an exercise: lie flat on your back in bed and try to mount a pump shotgun to engage a target at the foot of your bed.

(2) The pump shotgun requires both gross and fine muscle movements in order to operate; fine movements to operate the safety, slide release and load; gross movements to cycle the action. Both of these actions take time to master, and, for those not fully trained, can be easily botched under stress. (Note that this also applies to pistols; however, the act of loading a magazine and racking the slide on say, a Glock 17, is, to my mind, easier to learn than pushing shells into the carrier of an 870, pushing the slide release, racking the slide, then bringing the gun to bear.)

(3) Recoil, even with a 20 gauge, is a factor and affects both first shot effectiveness and repeat shots. Unless you have room to mount the gun your chances of achieving repeat shots with any accuracy go way down.

(4) The length of a shotgun makes maneuvering in hallways and around corners difficult. In my house the main hallway is quite narrow; even with an 18" 870 if I were caught facing the other way, I would have to dismount the gun in order to do a 180 degree turn. Think of executing such a turn in the tightest area of your home, then calculate how long it will take to remount the gun and engage the target.

In sum, I would recommend a high capacity handgun--9mm, 40, 10mm, 45--over a shotgun any day of the week and twice on Sunday. They can be managed by anyone who is strong enough to operate a firearm, can be employed from virtually any position--personally, I am more likely to be sitting or lying down when someone kicks my door open than I am to be standing, feet shoulder width apart, with my 870 at port of arms --and, perhaps most importantly, can be manuevered and brought on target even in very confined areas of the home.

First, make them buy their own guns. If they are interested enough to spend their own money, perhaps they'll actually be interested enough to learn how to use a gun.

I used to suggest stalking/DV victims go to Wally World and get an NEF Youth Model 20 ga. single shot, have it trimmed back to 18.5-in. and a big white bead installed. Then put a buttcuff on it with five rounds of buckshot. Then teach them how to run the gun. Even these days they'd have less than $150 in the gun, etc.

Nowadays I'm not opposed to a .410 with the modern 000 Buck loads; matter of fact my 17-year-old daughter has a Coachgun .410 loaded with 3-in. versions.

But upon reflection, I think perhaps the easiest most intuitive weapon for NDPs to use for home defense might be the ubiquitous Ruger 10/22, with a 25-round mag in it stoked wwith Stingers. Mount a piece of Weaver rail at the 9 o'clock, get a 1-in. Weaver ring and a SureFire Nitrolon and mount them on the rail.

Let them try variations on all those themes, maybe even take them to a rental range so they can try a variety of pistols, then let them pickwhat they want.

I also believe that one of the biggest issues, is how fast you can get to that weapon. A loaded shotgun nest to the bed is great in one sence but the pistol at hands reach is even faster. I have both next to my bed, no kids around just the wife and I. She has her pistol on the nightstand (.40cal Glock 22)and my pistol is a Glock 21-SF .45acp.

I agree that a shotgun with the long barrel is an issue if you have never learned how to clear a room or get around a corner. However, a pistol is not much better if you have not learned how to use it either for such a perpose.

I like the idea of the alarm coming on and the lights coming on too! Ghost Rings on a shotgun are of no use, just like iron sights in the dark. So perhaps we who have shotguns for home defense should check out a set of night sights for that gun.

One other factor I forgot to mention: try using a pump shotgun while talking on the phone with 911

Taurus Judge with .410, or a 4" K frame S&W in .357 or 38.

Use the pump shotgun, then dial 911.

Double Action shooting...if they can not hit the broad side of the house..from the inside..it is not their fault but the fault of the instructor not knowing how to a) do it themselves and/or b) not knowing how to teach the skill.

At the NRA Basic Pistol course at our local club both SA and DA shooting is taught. Up to 19 out of 20 students in a class with shoot better DA than single action with the correct instruction. Few if any of the students use SA fire for the rest of the revolver section even though they are given the choice.

And until one masters DA revolver shooting one will never shoot up to potential with a DA semi-auto, DAO semi-auto or one of the "safe action" pistols as all they are is a slightly easier to pull DA...

I taught CF Member RGS how to shoot DA over the phone. Since then he shoots all his DA revolvers DA in the bowling pin matches he competes in...and they start at 25 yards. Everyone else is shooting SA and he usually places in the top 3...


Bob

I agree. Some may not know that a Glock's trigger is best described as a really bad (though short) double action pull.

I agree with RJM about programming the software first. Firearm selection doesn�t even enter the game until after that. If the person is not motivated, don't waste your time. As far as guns go, my current philosophy is that I don�t own guns, I rent them. It doesn�t matter how many magazine articles or forum threads you read, there is no way to know if a gun is going to work for YOUR intended purpose until you (or the intended recipient) play with it. I now buy guns and play with them. If they don�t work for me, I send them down the road and get something else. You may lose some money, but you won�t lose all of it. Take your best shot and go from there. In doing so, you can put logic into it, but you have to try remove your own biases, if that is possible. You never know what gun different people will like. My wife likes DA revolvers, her Sig, 20 gauge pumps, and a Sauer hunting rifle. We went through a lot of stuff to get to that point. Those are good problems!

My experience has been that, if the bad guy sees any gun, he will describe it as "a big gun." If he doesn't recognize it as a gun, he will act as if you are unarmed. So, it has to be big enough or SHINY enough for him to know it's a gun. After that, it's all the same.

Bwinters: I know the answer to this one!
The correct answer is - a Glock Model 22 in caliber 40 S&W with high capacity magazine (15 rounds of man stopper munitions inside it!) equipped with either Tritium nights sights or a laser sight!
After 40+ years of observation and consideration this pistol is quick to get into action and virtually fool-proof even in the dark and not TO heavy of recoil!
I have used one "professionally" for nearly 20 years now and have as yet to find fault with it.
I have also depended on it for home protection during these nearly two decades and all members of the VarmintFamily (except the two grandkiddies) have been schooled in its use.
Best of luck with whichever you choose to upgrade to.
Yes "home invasions" are a chilling and sad fact of life anymore!
The first "home invasion" I ever had anything to do with occurred in north Seattle's Wallingford community back in about 1971.
Two Irish brothers were selling out and going back to the homeland. They had some expensive stereo equipment advertised in the local paper. The first day two "urban youths" (Negroes) responded to the ad and yet seemed NOT to know much about the equipment.
One of the Irish brothers was suspicious and went and loaded his 45 model 1911 (with hardball military style ammo) while his brother let the "urban youths" out of the house.
Sure enough less than an hour later just at dark the two "urban youths" kicked open the McClouds door and entered the home with tiny pistols in hand shouting at the Irish brothers to get on the floor.
Angus McCloud though produced his 45 and shot each "urban youth" once!
The "urban youths" were able to get to their "caddy" but both gave up at the nearby North Police Precinct due to blood loss!
Both barely survived their single gunshot wounds!
Both nearly bled to death!
Neither "urban youth" got off a shot!
Angus later told me he was anticipating being shot himself as he recovered from the 45's recoil from his first shot.
Apparently the "urban youths" were so startled by the production of the big pistol and the noise it made that they did not return or initiate fire?
The urban youths did drive several blocks and by the time they reached the North Police Precinct they had "ditched" their armaments - they of course contended (after "lawyering up"!) that they did not kick in the door nor did they return with pistols! And the reason they were shotten at all was that the McCloud brothers were "racists" and an argument over prices caused them to be shot!
Eventually under withering and LENGTHY (months) police inquiry the two "urban youths" fessed up that indeed they were drug addled drug addicts and had invaded the McCloud home with armaments intent on stealing lots of stuff!
Theres an old saying that comes to mind "dead men tell no lies"!
Yeah go with the reliable Glock Model 22 and become proficient with laying down a field of fire in dark and adverse conditions, positions!
And make sure your "home invader" is not a drunken relative coming home mad and not having a key - etc etc tc!
Thats another story though.
Again best of luck with whichever you choose.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

the scater gun is great in a mind set. I had three people break into my house 3 yrs ago. I came home late from work and walked in on them.I carry concealed permit so i had a 9mm on me. any gun will mess with the mind set of a person when you throw lead out of it.

twer it me, i'd find more security in checking the layout of my home and optimizing where possible to make things difficult for prowlers/burglars...

a good family dog is invaluable as an alarm if something is going on around the home... we've all learned to pay attention when the dog makes a fuss...

as far as guns go, spend some time in fun shooting with the gals in your home... my wife is capable enough with a lot of guns... the one that she picks up when i'm gone at night is her youth model savage bolt .22...
not the weapon i would chose for her, but probably OK given the direction that we've taken with dogs, chickens, and our physical security layout....

and she carries her model 10 when she walks....

A 9mm Glock is never a bad choice. Pretty simple to master.

For a long gun for women, a 357 levergun isn't bad. Or an M1 Carbine, or a good ol' AK47. They are all fairly handy in size, easy to operate, low recoil, plenty powerful, and hold plenty of ammo.

Shotguns are nice too, but recoil can be intimidating to some, and have adverse effect on effectiveness.

I wish my wife would enjoy shooting more. She comes from a "Leave it Beaver" type back ground and still maintains this mind set that Eddie Haskel is the worse the world has to offer.

My 15 year old daughter got some small pepper spray canisters for her B-Day a few year ago that fit in her purse. This helped introduce the concept of a weapon for self protection. She and my 10 year old son take to shooting like ducks to water.

Shotguns are great, but they are in a fixed location, and if you are out and about then they may not be available in time. Revolvers are good too, but a lot of people cant shoot as well in double action mode, including myself.

I really like the light weight 14+1 shot, 9mm CZ-75 PCR I picked up recently. The de-cocking lever lets you put the hammer down safely on a loaded chamber. With children, I feel much more comfortable with the weapon stored double action. You can manipulate the hammer easily for a more precise single action first shot, and then lower the hammer again safely. The pistol is light weight, and serves well in a concealed carry role. I will be looking for another.

Pilfered photo of a PCR next to an XP

Get a short barelled 12 guage. A M37 Ithaca trench gun lives under my bed. The Glock 20 in my nite stand is there in case I need time to get to the Ithaca.

O

I've already pitched my vote for a user friendly revolver but would like to add a little experience I had in Africa. A friend & I were hunting over there & we went to dinner one night with a group of 10 other people, both men & women. After dinner we found out the only 2 people that weren't packing a gun that night were me & my partner! Both the women & the men were carrying Glock model 23's with hi-cap mags, the men were carrying them in their waist band under a shirt or sweater, no one we seen was carrying in a holster. The guns were very fast to retreive & they really didn't care much if someone noticed they were carrying!
We also learned after a few days that its very dangerous in the big cities (Johannesburg) just like here! I'm a country boy, I like the small towns!

Dick

I also have already stated my preference for the simple double action revolver, but would like to comment on the shotgun advocates. Nothing wrong with a shotgun. Very effective weapon, but keep in mind that few ever get much trigger time with a shotgun, unless you're involved in skeet, trap, or sporting clays. Few spend much time with a shotgun shooting at targets combat style. That's easy and cheap to do with a .38.

Im what i would consider well compitent with most any fire arm and own everything but a semi auto rifle. That being said i keep a 200 dollar 12 guage pump beside my bed, a 45xd with laser by the bed room door, and a 300 RUM and cordless 2 million candle power spotlight by the front door. Call me paraniod but i think this is a good start to use in progression.................I just thought. What if they use it in backwards progression on me? Oh well, maybe time to reassess this situation. Ill lock up everything except the shotgun and load the rounds in progression, if they beat me to death with the spotlight i guess I had it coming.

Simple is best and there's nothing more simple than a .38 snubbie.

On my side of the bed......a G23. On her side......a S&W 642, .38 Spl. The 642 (as is the blued verson....442) is a Centennial, which means it has no visible hammer, it is enclosed and the entire gun has no "edges" to hang up on anything.

I load her 642 with 135gr. GD's for a bit less recoil over the heavier weights and she shoots it well and often. Easily concealed, handles easily, fits small hands, ultra lightweight and packs enough punch to do the job.

For all the ladies in the house, if shotguns are being considered, I have a Youth model 870 Express 20 gauge which both of the ladies can handle with ease. It's handy, lightweight and sports a shorter barrel which aids in the "gettin' around" dept.

Good luck on your decision......

I have no problems with a snubby revolver. My home gun is a 15 shot Steyr M9A1 with laser in a small electronic safe on my bed.

I disagree with all the training stuff. The facts don't support it, including John Lott's estimate that handguns are used successfully in defense of life and property over 2-million times per year. We don't see failed home defense reports on TV, much to the chagrin of the liberals, if the homeowner is armed we only see successful ones.

Does training improve your odds? Maybe, if you train enough to advance your baseline - the line you will revert to under extreme stress.

It's important to me to establish a plan for dealing with a home invasion. The plan around the JOG household is the usual early warning stuff (alarms, lights, dog) and culminates in taking a defensive position and letting the bad guy choose to leave or walk into a reaaally bad spot. In your case three women and one handgun can make things complicated so a plan is all the more important.

Handgun-wise, my blanket recommendation for home defense is the Springfield XDM in 9mm, 4-1/2 inch barrel, 19+1, with night sights. The XDM has plenty of everything and is a very easy handgun to operate.

Been saying the same thing for years.