.44 Magnum Titanium revolvers that weigh 28 ounces, .357 Magnums that weigh under 20 ounces, .454 Casulls, .480 Rugers, .500 Linebaughs, .500 S&W.



I�ve been shooting .44 Magnums since 1973, in mostly Ruger Suger Blackhawks of 7 �� and 5� barrels, but have had a smattering of Redhawks with both barrel lengths and one Super Redhawk. Had a 4 5/8� .45 Colt Blackhawk as well that I�d load up. Got a Ruger SP-101 .357 which is a fat toad of a heavyweight compared to most snubbie revolvers. All of these �medium power�, �relatively heavy� revolvers had one thing in common. With regular full power loads they all kicked like freaking mules!



Am I just a wimp or or do the rest of you guys bully WWF wrestlers for fun? I mean, fine, no problem, it�s a free country and shoot what you want, but do you really, really enjoy long range sessions with the above mentioned super lightweights and/or behemoths? I know what 20 rounds of 22/2400/250 cast from a Super Blackhawk will do to my nerves, I can�t even imagine what touching off a full box of .454 Casulls from a 5 �� Freedom Arms would be like.



I�ve met Brian Pearce on several occasions and physically he is a pretty big fellow, and he mentioned the pain he underwent testing the new .500 S&W. I figure if a die hard revolver afficionado like him has trouble taming one of those, what about the rest of us mortals?



Not trying to pick a fight (especially not with anybody who actually relishes watching the bones of their wrists and forearms vibrate violentlyon every shot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), but just wondering how much these things actually get shot vs. bought. Plus how many people, and be honest here, really enjoy shooting these things vs. gritting your teeth and suffering through it.



Signed,

.452 caliber, 250 grains at 1000 fps is all I need (or want anymore!)





P.S. Please, don't edumacate me about "working up" to these things - I've been an NRA certified pistol instructor for a long time and a big bore revolver shooter for 32 years now so I know all about developing recoil tolerance. Anyway, not trying to start anything, just making conversation, plus, I honestly want to know how many folks actually enjoy shooting these things? (I know of a 6 pound .458 Lott you might be interested in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Jim, I am with you. There is a line you cross at some point and you leave fun on the other side lol. tom

Putting those monster hangun cartridges in a lite weight gun is like a 6lb 300 wby. fun to talk about , not bad to shoot once, but they won't do anything for your shooting abilities.
I've shot 454's and am not that impressed.
I agree with you if a 250 gr 45 slug trotting along at 1000 fps won't get the job done, probably should have used a rifle in the first place.

I've been shooting handguns since the late 1940s, in matches and for fun, from a cap-and-ball 1860 Colt and several .22 LR autos and revolvers to the Lee Jurras "howdah" pistols (which made the .45-70 Contender seem like a .22 LR by comparison). I may not have shot the mildest, but I've certainly shot the nastiest. The fun definitely ends at some point long before the cartridges stop getting bigger. For several decades now, I don't shoot anything for fun that isn't fun to shoot. I know what I can handle with some skill, and I know what's fun -- and of course the difference.

From the outside watching and listening, it seems that some "handgunners" get their jollies not by shooting their big handguns but by impressing others with what monsters they own -- untamable by mere mortals -- and I have to wonder how many of them are striving to convince themselves that their cojones did indeed descend. Some, of course, are thus misled into assuming (and reaching for) "norms" that are definitely far beyond the norms of human tolerance and enjoyment.

When Roy Weatherby introduced his huge .460 cartridge -- a near-clone of John Buhmiller's big .45 wildcat -- he got a flood of orders for the .460 rifles that added-up to a pile of back-orders and some long waits for delivery. The demand for the ammo wasn't nearly so great.

Make a five-ounce titanium .900 Tyrannosaurus derringer, and there'll soon be a small platoon of machos salivating to shoot it (or to say that they do) and crow about it.

Jim, I'm 5'10" and 200 lbs. Been shooting for over 35 years. I own and have extensively fired a .330 Dakota, a .450 Marlin (both in rifles), and a .44 Magnum (a revolver) made of scandium/titanium. These are not fun guns to shoot, but none of them have ever caused significant pain or harm to my body that I know of. Yes, if you go through 60 rounds of .450 Marlin or .330 Dakota, you will feel like quitting for the day, but recoil sensitivity is largely in the mind, I think. Any adult male more than 150 pounds should be able to fire any of these weapons at least a few times without any significant pain or damage to themselves, if they know how to properly shoulder/grip them. From the bench or in prone are the two most likely ways to be injured by them, but even that way, a few rounds shouldn't be a problem. The hardest kicking handgun I have is the scandium/titanium S&W .44 Magnum. I fire it with the wood grips, and it is a bit much if you go over 50 rounds in one session, but certainly nothing to be afraid of to fire off a few rounds with. This is an example of a gun that is designed to be carried a lot, and fired a little. No one is expected to spend a day at the range shooting a .44 magnum that is so lightweight it feels like it's made of wood. For that, a nice all steel K-Frame .357/.38 or a Government Model .45 is what you want. The only reason for owning that .44 is because you might otherwise decide not to carry a sidearm on a hunt, due to the weight. This one is so light, it will hardly be noticed, and provides a backup that is always handy and able to handle of lot of situations.

Hawk, It may be in the mind, but after trying the Linbaugh and the new Smith I will stay with my 5" pinned barrel 29 as "Biggest and Baddest" handgun in my selection of "shootable handguns! I ain't a wimp, but I don't like getting hurt when doing the shooting. In fact with the exception of keeping current on the 29 I shoot .22lr and .38 spl most followed by .44spl. Biggest rifle I have ever owned and used is a 45-70 1886 Winnie. Next is a 30-06 in a Mauser action.

Grandfather Fountain (in his 90s at the time) complained mildly about some discomfort or other.

"Aw, Dad," my mother said, "that's all in your mind!"

"Yeah, Honey, that may be," he said, "but the effect's the same."

When I bought my FA 454 several years back, I just knew that I had to have some of the 300gr Winchester factory loads. Boy Howdy! There may be those out there that can shoot them accurately out of a 4 3/4" revolver, but I am not one of them. Maybe one or two shots, but that is it. I finally settled on the 270gr. Leadhead bullet and 22gr of 2400. It is about all the power I can use and be effective. I have found myself carrying a Ruger flat top that Clements converted to 44 special. It is a heck of a lot more fun, surprising accurate, and I don't catch myself with my eyes closed when I touch it off.

Too much recoil is not too much fun.

S

My fun threshhold is at my old 6 in M29 .44 Smith with Keith loads or my .45 LC 5 1/2 in Blackhawk hotted up. I've shot a 7 1/2 in .454 just enough to know I don't want to buy one, and have no interest at all in the .500 S&W. More power to those who like them, but it ain't for me.

No raptors or tyrannosaurs in these parts for many millenia, and I feel certan my .44 will protect me from anything else long enough to get to my double rifle <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have a buddy that insist on shooting the "real stuff" all the time in his packin' revolvers. I try to explain he could get lot more enjoyment and more trigger time if he would load down a little or try a few specials now and again, but he insists on "practice like you play"... carry the big stuff shoot with it.

I tried this one time with a 3 1/2" 45 Colt Vaquero I picked up for a packing gun. I stoked up some 255 hard casts and and a bunch of H110, and 50 rounds in, my little finger hurt so bad from the bottom of the grip frame smashing into it, I couldn't hold a single action properly for a month. It still hurts if it's cold out.

I ain't skert of much, but I'll take a lot of fun with moderate magnum loads or specials, and save the big stuff for the critters that go bump in the night.

2 Crow

he nasties thibng I ahve shot so far is a Smith Mountian gun in 44 mag. It actually tore the flesh off of the web of my hand. JJack bought it and likes them.
I can shoot a 4 5/8"Blackhawk in44 mag with some pretty stiff loads and they don't bother me much. but I have to admit, they are not my perception of fun.
For my fun loads and shooting 300-400 rounds in a session, I load up a cast 158 gr, r.n. in a .357 case, using 4.3 grains of either W231 or Universal clays. In the 44 I use 8 grs of same.

I shot enough of the heavy loads that I had to have surgery on my elbow and hand. NOT FUN.

Jim, of those you listed, I have no problem with the SP101 .357 - if you toss the factory grips and put on some Hogues. I can shoot mine all day with your average .357 load.

But the others...well, I've played a little with the FA .454, and I'm quite sure I'll not do it again. I've only fired one scandium gun - a .38, with +p loads - and it wasn't much fun either.

I suspect that, at 4.5lbs, the .500 S&W might not be too bad with the lighter loads - but I can't think of any reason why I would need one.

OTOH - the 28oz 44mag looks interesting, only because I know I could use it with 44spl loads with good effect. Probably would be better if they would produce it in .45LC.

Anyhow, I'm pretty much with you. Clearly, some guys buy guns for different reasons than you and I. If it keeps the cash flowing for the companies that also make the guns we like, I'm okay with that too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-FreeMe

I've got a Freedom Arms .454 which is manageable because it is fairly heavy BUT I shoot almost all .45 LC mid range loads in it. I'm not in bear country and don't plan on getting drunk enough to see one.

It has been my observation that, with a few notable exceptions, (and I am not including the Real Hawkeye here, I've never seen him shoot and I'm sure he is a good shot)almost every one of the Bigger, Faster, Larger crowd are substituting power for accuracy. Many of these guys that I've seen on the pistol range shooting hot .44 mags or .454s shoot PATTERNS, not groups at 50 yards, with some misses on man size targets. How you manage to miss a 2x4 foot target at 50 yards is something of a mystery, but I've seen it done several times. I don't have as much empirical evidence on big bore rifles, but am fairly sure that holds true for many of those shooters as well. My Marlin .45-70s are somewhat hot but comfortable to shoot at 1800 fps with 350 gr bullets. Make that 2000 and they are a real pain, at least to my shoulder.

It's an old point, but a well aimed .30-06 (.45 LC) is a helluva lot better than a poorly placed .416 (.45-70).

Speaking of manageable sixguns, when Davids Clements converted one of my flat tops to 44 special we were discussing various calibers and we lit on the 10mm. He knew that I had always loved the 10mm and had owned all of them at one time or another. He casually mentioned that the Ruger flat top (he knew I had a second one stashed) made up into a dandy 10mm. Capable of the hottest loads. If you retain the aluminum grip frame the weight is really not bad, of course slightly less than the original 357 chambering.

Anyone have any thoughts about this combination? That poor ole flat top sure seems to want out of the safe. Originally I was going to have H. Bowen do something with it, just to have one of his customs. Now I don't know.

S

Other than just wanting a 10mm , would there be any real advantage over the 41 mag or a 38-40?

Ranch, the short answer is no. I have got one of Ruger Buckeye 10mm/38-40's. Barrel too long, frame too big. I had a SAA in 38-40, and currently do have a clone SAA in 38-40 that Jim Stroh worked over, but the 38-40 is a pain to load for. A good SAA carries great though. What I was really thinking about was the easy carrying of the flat top and the 2000 rnds of 10mm brass I have got laying around. I already have everything to run 10's through the Dillon. I suppose that is the over riding factor. I don't have anything like that much brass in 41 mag.

S

Well sir sounds like you got your answer then. But contemplating new/next gun is always fun. Let us know how the 10 turns out.

I really enjoy shooting my .41RemMag guns even with very heavy hunting loads. Seems that I can just go and go and still want more, 200 round sessions were light afternoon relaxation times after supper. 1500 rounds weekend shoots happened at least once a month at the house. That is what it used to be like before all the surgery now I have been relegated to a mere 20-30 rounds a month. Even as much as I like the .41 RemMag I could never warm up to the .44RemMag. Have a Smith 29 that has been in the safe so long that it thinks it is dead. Have a 14 inch Contender in 45-70 that only my oldest son shoots, 5 times were more than enough for me. I also have some .41 wildcats that are a bit much, .41GNR#2 is a short session gun and my .411JDJ also falls into that category. Funny thing was that the .41RemMag never hurt me but it sure messed things up in my right wrist.:(

Keep in mind, I never said those guns were my fun guns. In fact, I said they weren't fun to shoot. A bit much. They do have thier place, however, and I have never hurt myself shooting them, as I know how much is too much. For all day shooting, there are much better and more enjoyable calibers.

It seems as I get older (51) I don't handle recoil as well as I did when I was in my 30's
I had a 3 screw Ruger 45 that I loaded hot, and just loved it. The baddest "kicker" I had was a 3" Lou Horton special- 41 mag. With Sierra 170's at 1500 FPS this gun was straight in the air after tuching one off!
Nowdays my Kimber Tactical 45 with aluminum frame is about all the recoil I enjoy. I can still get an 8 shot clipfull to cut the same hole at 10 yds. off hand, but have to really concentrate to do it!
Virgil B.

My T/C Contender w/10" .44 Barrel and 300gr LBT's is about all the fun I can stand!! It WILL pop you between they eyes off the bench if you don't steer it over one shoulder or the other...No loose gripping trying to enhance accuracy!

Having said all of that I get good groups out at 50-75 yards where I normally shoot it! I don't shoot it a lot and I've learned to put sandbags under my elbows, and to deal with the ferocity for a few rounds...I have complete confidence in it handling anything I'll ever shoot with a handgun...

Once this batch of bullets are gone I'll switch to hard cast 240gr bullets...They'll leave a .429 cal hole through a deer just as well and I ain't trying to shoot through 60" of Moose or something <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mike

RORTR, I like shooting my 45-70 Contender a whole bunch. it is very accurate and the muzzle break just naturally clears the bench on either side of me. I do have to limit my shooting to less than 20 rounds at a time as the bruises in my hands get pretty bad after that. i can't imagine any thing much bigger that that. One thing about this sort of big gun play it shows you your limits of flinch control.

Bullwnkl.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I get a little bruising in my hand..My wrist will be a little twingy afterwards too!

I didn't want a brake because I got the contender to eliminate barrel cylinder gap in case I ever touched one off hunting without ear protection...of course I wised up before ever doing that! I now carry ear protection anytime I might shoot a handgun hunting...I still haven't used it on anything yet after years of carrying one for deer...

Maybe this will be the year!

Mike

The comment about recoil pain reminds me of the old limerick:
There was a faith healer from Deal
Who said, "Although pain is not real,
When I sit on a pin
And it punctures my skin
I dislike what I fancy I feel." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I believe that a lot of the boys with the big pistols are just practicing the old mine is bigger than yours deal trying to impress the peanut gallery. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Don't matter to them if they can really shoot them or not.

My hands are pretty tough but in different spots than pistol shooting uses. If I have to shoot one of the big boomers more than a couple of times I just use a batting glove. Works for me. Still not saying that I really enjoy shooting them as opposed to a 357 with a decent weight or a 44 special with good handloads.

BCR

I'm not sure if some of the snide comments had me in mind, but why do you people feel you need to put people down because they own and shoot guns that you choose not to own or shoot? A question was asked, and I answered it to the best of my knowledge, or maybe you'd like to discourage that in the future?

I've been a .44 Magnum owner/shooter since 1967. I still have my first, a 4 inch Smith 29. It will still put 3 into 1.25 inches at 25 yds. That's why I keep it. At 43 ozs. it has gobs of real power and I can shoot it.
But not for long. My shooting goes downhill before I shoot 50 rds. Not alot, just enough to make a difference. I also notice that I tend to throw a round more often then.
I've noticed the same thing with rifles and trap shooting. Light, faster kicking guns errode my shooting ability. Using a heavier gun helps. Using lighter loads does too. So, the question is what do I really need to do what I want to do ?
Since hitting something with a handgun is the big problem, follwed by power requirements, the question boils down to what I can hit while under stress.
I've found that what I shoot best after an extended range session is what I also shoot best under stress.
So, for personal protection, since I shoot one better under stress, I pack either a .45 1911 pistol, or a 10mm S&W 1006. The Smith 29 gets used for quail hunting during big game season. E

Hawk, I am not sure what you are re-acting to but I re-read all the posts and saw no snide remarks. please explain. tom

Well, searching back, a few appear to have been modified and/or deleted, but they were along the lines of suggesting that those who claim to shoot hard kicking weapons just purchase them and then claim they shoot them, or that its about appearing macho. It's unfortunate that these messages have been altered and/or deleted, because now I really look pretty foolish to someone just dropping in now. Here's the only one left that comes close to what I was referring to, though it is mild by comparison.

Hawk, guess I ignored the comments when they were posted. I figure that anyone should shoot what they want what ever their motive. I make no bones about being a wimp when you go past a 44 mag lol. Of course we won't talk about my 15" 30-06 encore either. tom

I am a fairly stout fellow, but my level of fun ends at the .44 Magnum 300g level. It's not painful past that, just not my idea of fun.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "if you need something more than a .44 Magnum, you need a rifle."

The .44 Mag is about as big as I'll go routinely, esp if I expect to shoot more than a cylinder and actually hit what I am aiming at. The Corbon 305 gr Penetrators from a 5.5" barreled Super Blackhawk are stout but tolerable and I've come to the conclussion that .44 Mag is a suitable maximum power for handguns not because it is awe inspiring, but because it combines enough bullet diamater and mass, velocity, and subsequent energy to get the job done while still providing a recoil lever most dedicated handgunners will be able to adapt to with practice--in other words, it is practical handgun power--power you can use--not just numbers of a chart or magazine ad.

That's my stance anyways. Your results may vary, and by all means, if the .500 Smithy turns your crank, go for it.

This isn't a comment on what people have said so far within this discussion but is an observation from my own shooting experience...........

While sighting in a friend's 30/06 I complained that my shoulder was getting sore. This drew quite a bit of "ribbing" from those nearby. Also, when I first shot 3 rounds of trap with my new 12ga and it hurt me so bad it took 2 weeks for my shoulder to heal I also got some "teasing". Plus, since I don't like to shoot handguns larger than 9mm due to recoil aches and lost accuracy I also get some "arched eyebrows" from other shooters. I ended up with the impression that "manly men shoot great big guns and LIKE it .... and only sissys say it hurt and wasn't FUN."

In my opinion (just my opinion because of my own experiences and not commenting on the posts here) those who pick on other shooters because of size of gun or lack of accuracy or lack of the funds to buy the latest/greatest are into ego and not into shooting.

Hey Hawk Old bud, since you used my comment let me elaborate for a second. I don't know you persoanly and would not have intentionaly offended you for anything. The comment concerned some that I do know and have personally seen. A couple of guys that I know with the big 454's if you slip a dud round in the cylinder while they are shooting they will durn near fling the pistol out of their hand when the empty chamber hits in anticipation of recoil. Looks like they are trying to choke a snake to death. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

For all I know you may shoot them well and often. Just commenting on what I have seen, OK ?

BCR

LOL. Actually, I figured you weren't directing it at me, but my comment was a general question as to why there seems to be hostility (almost) towards anyone who doesn't chime in on how terrible and worthless the big kicking guns are. That's all I meant. I never did say they were fun, well some of them are fun for a few rounds, but that they are shootable and useful (at least the ones I have). By the way, I have no handgun, nor have I fired a handgun, more powerful than .44 Magnum, and you couldn't hand me a serious elephant rifle, as I would just hand it back to you. LOL. Not that there aren't people who love to shoot them. There may be, for all I know, and more power to them. I don't feel the need to put them down (as a general category), however, by insinuating that they're just acting all macho, and can't really shoot it well (though, I'm sure there are some that fit that description).[/quote]For all I know you may shoot them well and often. Just commenting on what I have seen, OK?[/quote]I like to think that I shoot well in general (other than with a shotgun, which I can't shoot for beans), but I would develop a flinch if I fired a too powerful (for weight) gun for too long a period. You just have to quit before that starts.

Boggy's right. (It's kind of a habit with him, but don't tell 'im I said so.)

The Ruger Redhawk was "just out" when I took mine -- number 1xx -- on a boar hunt. The outfitter had never seen one, so I let him shoot mine. After five rounds with about 20 grains of H-240 (about like 22 grains of 2400) behind a 250-grain Keith bullet, he handed the gun back to me. I didn't know that he'd either dropped the live round out of the cylinder or turned the cylinder past it.

"Here," he said, "let me see you shoot the last one."

The sights stayed lined-up just right on the target, and the gun just vibrated a little, when the hammer dropped with just a click and no kick or roar.

Jack grinned. "Let's go find you a hawg."

Later that day, another bullet (just one) from that brand-new Redhawk and that oldest of Keith .44 moulds went right where I aimed it and put a huge "hawg" down with a short trot, a squeal, and a brief cloud of pink spray.

Until you can consistently shoot a big sixgun like that, stick to a good .22 Long Rifle handgun -- preferably a good revolver, IMO -- and practice with a friend's "blind" loadings in alternate chambers of the big sixgun until the gun just vibrates a little with the hammer fall, and the sights don't jerk away from aim when the hammer drops on an empty. Then you're a handgunner.

Three trophies from that hunt --
-- the "hawg"
-- the sight picture at the moment of the click
-- Jack's grin

I no longer have the mounted head, and my family and I finished-off the last of the meat over twenty years ago. The other two are as bright in memory as ever.

I just love hard kickin' lightweight magnums. I'm hoping for a 15-oz. .44 Mag.

Does anybody else shave by pounding the whiskers in with a hammer and biting them off on the inside?

Novocaine is for sissies.

Just pop my shoulder back in Coach, and send me back to the game.

Real men can stare at the sun and scare it behind a cloud.

I'm not bringing my .44 to the range today because I ran out of W296...or was it the 300-grain bullets? Yeah, it was the bullets - that's the ticket.

I think you've summed up my sentiments on the subject perfectly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Nothing else needs saying now.

The empty chamber drill is something I have been using since my early USN days. Used it with all my kids and my granddaughter. We usually have an extended range session at the house every weekend that I don�t work. The kids all know that �the drill� will show up at least once and usually more than once. In Ken�s case a flinch could have cost him his hunt, on my range you flinch on an empty you unload your stuff, move over to the side and do dry fire drills for that day, NO MORE LIVE ROUNDS THAT DAY. My youngest son really gets burned by that rule but he abides by it. My granddaughter Amber has never had a problem with the drill. She has the ability to focus totally on the task at hand and an empty chamber is just one more sight, focus, squeeze, breathe, follow through. If it goes bang ok if not go on to the next set. �Choking a snake� about sums it up.

When an unsuspecting friend with an extreme flinch gets caught by the empty-chamber ruse, it's often all I can do to keep from laughing out loud. In the absence of the cover-up recoil and roar, "choking a snake" is only a part of it. In the worst cases, there are tight-squinched eyes, a lunging forward thrust, and a guttural "ugh!" that never fail to amuse me and embarrass the "shooter." The forward lunge also points the muzzle down a bit. I have a hard time not referring to shooting toes off or recommending steel-toed shoes for handgun-shooting. Just not grinning is a chore, but the problem is really not something to joke about or make fun of. A flinch that bad, I'd imagine, would be awfully hard to cure.

Well Gang,
I just kinda waited to see what the consensus on the ol' .44Mag would be and things came out about like I thought they would. Personally, I love .44Mag. and no, I don't have no big kahonas. I just legitimately like the round and believe it is every bit as accurate as a .357 Mag. Further, it makes a bigger hole, which I find to be a bit more effective.

What does ol' Flower Child know about .44Mag? Well, not a whole lot but that it suits what I want it fer around here and I jus plain like it. Now, not loaded with no elephant bullets though. 300 grs ! Oh really now! Whatcha gonna kill with that? I truly use 20grs of 2400 with CCI Large Pistol Magnum Primers and CHEAP ol' Remington bulk 240 gr SJHP bullets @ 1385 fps. Out of my 5" S&W model 29 Classic that's all I need fer anything that walks and more than enough fer most things. Incidently, that's a true chronographed velocity. If'n I NEED more than that, I NEED A RIFLE or a slug from my 16ga pump.

In my neck of the woods, ya runs whatcha brung ands most folks manage ta git by with .357's,30/30's an' such. It tends to be a little bit on the side of overkill, but then, a little insurance is nice when ya run into a wild steer with an attitude about people who is a fix'n a fence or something. This has always been enough fer me and if'n I crank the rear sight down flat against the frame it's sighted in dead on fer 50 yds, which is about as far as I shoot without get'n something with a longer barrel.

But ...ta answer the question. I ain't Superman no more an' you ain't no wimp jus cuz ya got enough sense ta know when enough is enough and this all is a coming from a fella that uses this pistol like most of ya use your right hand fer doin things. Hang in there and lighten up yer load a bit. It'll still work jus fine.

Flower Child

Ken,
There is another kind of flinch that just cracks me up. When is happens it is usually very public with lots of witnesses around. I refer to the shotgun safety left on flinch. I see it lots at my opening day dove shoot. Unfortunately for the shooter every one around also sees it happen. Classic flinch. I�ve seen some so bad with the shooter leaning so hard into the recoil that doesn�t happen that they almost fall on their face. Damn near ring the stock off squeezing that trigger. I just get a kick out of it and of course a dove shoot being what it is the shooter that it happens to is ribbed unmercifully by everyone within shouting distance. Doves will humble the best of wing shooters anyway add an incident like that and you could end up with a life long very unflattering nickname.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I often see a double whammy when eager cheechakos hanker to shoot my .458 Winchester Magnum. I let 'em see me load three rounds and shoot one, but I don't let 'em see me hold the second round down when I close the bolt and turn the safety on before I hand it over to 'em. They do the same thing that you see with a dove gun -- shove the gun forward with the muzzle pointed low. Then I mention that the safety is on, one of us turns it to "fire," and they do the same thing again because the chamber's empty. Some of 'em do it after they've just seen their buddies do it. I've about become convinced that very few shooters don't flinch.

Hey Fellas,
Why is it such a bad thing ta flinch a little bit or even a lot, provided that the shooter does it the same way each time an' hits the target dead center every time? I don't know if'n I flinch or not and frankly, I don't much give a hoot, cuz I have always managed to hit where I'm aiming anyway.

Heck, the stink'n Army rifle instructors used ta yell at me ALL THE TIME fer doin sumth'n wrong when we were shooting. About the only thing they did like was the results of my shoot'n style, but according ta them, I did everything wrong. Their biggest problem was how to explain it when I took the Brigade shoot'n championship.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm a fair shot but probably not an excellent one. Also, unless you're stupid, ya always know that thar is somebody better than you are at just about everything ya turn yer hand to these days.

Finally, I FAIL TO SEE THE HUMOR in playing such stupid tricks on somebody such as closing the bolt on an empty chamber when inviting them ta give it a try, or failing ta show them how yer weapon works, to include the safety. Also, what person in their right mind thinks that playing stupid tricks with loaded weapons is cute or funny? If'n ya do, I got a cute trick fer ya with an' ol' worthless 8mm Mauser, where I plug the end of the barrel with mud an' give ya a BIG SURPRISE that's GUARANTEED ta make ya flinch! Really, I thought y'all were a mature audience. Maybe I was wrong.

Flower Child

I'm with you FC. I had the same reaction.

Agree 100% tthat �playing stupid tricks with loaded firearms� is neither cute nor funny.

However, handing someone a firearm with an empty chamber but making them think it is loaded is not only accepted but a recommended way of a) seeing if they indeed have a flinch and b) clearly demonstrating to the shooter that they have a flinch. When teaching people to shoot revolvers it is quite common to load random chambers so they don�t know if the firearm is going to go bang or not. Watching where the sights go when the hammer falls on an empty chamber not only shows flinching but other common mistakes. It is particularly valuable in teaching proper trigger control and a proper follow through.

Just wanted to clear up the difference between playing tricks and legitimate instruction techniques.

Yes, there is a difference between the two. In one, you are doing it for entertainment and to belittle someone publicly, and in the other your intention is to help someone learn, without turning them off to shooting and the people who shoot.

P.S. When I sit down at the bench to test loads, before firing a shot I'll dry fire the rifle or handgun a few times while watching the crosshairs/sights. This assures me that my trigger control is okay that day. Can't prove it empirically but I'm pretty sure that this improves my marksmanship by getting the trigger finger "warmed up" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Now don't laugh at that as I see it as the same thing a golfer or a baseball player does when he takes a few practice swings before actually addressing the ball or stepping up to the plate.

Training is THE purpose for the technique.

Entertainment is sometimes A result.

I've never used the technique for entertainment.

I also don't impugn others' motives for entertainment.

Been doing the same thing to rookie Deputies for 30+ years, and yes it is sometimes a hoot what they do.

Jim-I think I was 15 in Boise when I got my first 44 Mag and had one for 30 years.Traded it for a Huskie chain saw.I have a 454 Taurus now and the recoil is very manageable to me my wife and son.My wife and son like to shoot it as much as I do,so I reload light loads for playing.With 45 Colt ammo it kicks way less then the 44 Mag.

It's just a fun gun and pretty accurate now that I have a Burris Speed Dot on it.My old eyes just couldn't get used to those Taurus factory sights.

Boise sure has changed from the old days...Have fun down there..

Jayco.

I will flinch pretty bad if I'm not concentrating. Both the "safety left on" flinch and the empty chamber variety.

That being so, I can control it with thought, and still shoot better than anyone I know. I might flinch, but I'm a damn fine shot, handgun or rifle.

I think it stems from a couple things, first, an old broken right (trigger) finger. I don't know why, but hot loads out of my GP100 just do it wrong, and it's painful. On the other hand, I can shoot a couple cylinders of JDJ 340 grainers in a 4 1/2 454, and not be bothered as much. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> The 454 still nails pretty good, but not as offensive to me as the 357 with hogues.

I've shot all my life, and have shot more 454 in a weekend (due to family's previous employ at FA) than most who own them will shoot in a lifetime. Not as much of a problem for me as that damn GP100. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I definately appreciate a handgun that rolls in the hand more than one that doesn't.

I don't think I'm any kind of a bigger man because I can shoot a 454. It can still get pretty damn uncomfortable, and I have less tolerance for some fairly small caliblers.

It's physics I'm sure. I've got quite large hands. How that affects things exactly, I'm not sure, but I'm guessing I just get along better with a larger framed handgun versus a small framed one where the ergonomics aren't there for my big hands.

Another gun I truly hate to shoot is my .270 from the bench. Brutal (for me) is a fair description. The way I naturally hold the rifle from a bench makes it feel like it is going to seperate my shoulder. One shot without additional padding is enough to remind me to forgoe the macho man crap. This also seems to be where I've experienced my recently returning flinch.

I can shoot that same 270, or 338's off hand, sitting, or kneeling all day long, and am not bothered, and wonder what the fuss is about. But, that ol' 270 from the bench damn near brings tears to my eyes though!

Having said that, I believe one of them smith titanium 44mags is in my future when it comes time to pass the 357 to my boy. Other than sighting in and the occassional re-familiarization with it, it won't get shot much, and it's main duty will be backup and camp side arm.

Dave, I agree with you. Any high powered rifle from the bench is unpleasant to shoot, to say the least. However, like you, from standing, kneeling or sitting, I bet I could shoot a full house .458 Win Mag without a problem. When you stand, sit or kneel, the recoil is just like a strongman gave you a good shove on the shoulder. Now I've seen a video of an Arab fellow shoot a (I believe this is right) 700 Tyrannosaur (or some such thing), and it nearly knocked him off his feet. Don't think I want to be trying one of those, standing or otherwise, but certainly anything good for North America can be shot all day from standing, kneeling, or even sitting.Exactly right. Not fun to spend an afternoon with, but it has a definite role to play as a hunting backup, hiking or camping companion, where weight is a major consideration.

Well Guys,
I guess I'm swimming against the tide here on this here flinch thing but teaching technique or no, to me it's jus plain stupid. I wouldn't do this to anyone else and I darn sure would be tempted to never go shooting again with anybody who pulled a stunt like this on me. Justify and rationalize it all you want to. The net effect is the same, although some proponents may aspire to "higher priorities" and THEN yuck it up.

To me, it's just plain WRONG to deliberately introduce confusion (gee is the gun loaded or not?) in a fellow shooter. This sort of thing is exactly what causes "accidents" and I fer one would cancel a range session that very second if I had to share the range with such a Yahoo. Think what ya want. I'm agin' it and that's that fer me. The rest of you can do as ya darn well please but ya ain't sharing no range time with me.

Flower Child

FC, In our training program ALL firearms are considered loaded at all times and treated as such. Never a question if it is or not. Since this involves Deputies it is logical to figure they are always loaded. The surprise is when it is not.

I don't have any problem with full house loads in my 44s but I don't shoot them all the time,as I'd rather not tear up my pistols sooner than later. On the other hand <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I'v never been able to fire a 357 to any extent without embarrassing myself. The short,sharp recoil besides just plain irritating me,will after 7-8 rds numb my fingers. I had a bad case of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome years ago and the surgery didn't completly clear it up. Its hard to squeeze a trigger when you can't feel it. BUT I haven't dropped one yet .<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I haven't shot a .480 or .454 but would like to,just to see. Other than that,considering the type of shooting/hunting I'm likely to do,I don't see any need for anything other than a 44 mag. I'v drooled over that Scandium S&W 44 often,and also like the scandium 325PD(21.5 oz 45ACP) but haven't seen any prices on them yet. I'll probably have to make do with a heavy,clunky ol' Mountain Gun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Jeff

I fondled one of those Scandium .45s at a gun shop in Newberry, Florida. Real nice. That barrel looks to be one inch long, but I think it's actually three, because the barrel goes back right up to that short cylinder.

Yep,my much thumbed catalogue says 2 3/4 inch bbl. The few that I'v seen post about the 325PD are all real happy with them and say the recoil is tolerable...compared to the 329 anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I'll have to check around and see if anybody has got one in recently.

Jeff

The S&W 325PD is on my short list.

Introducing a empty chamber in a training situation is considered a valid teaching technique. It is not done to embarrass the person or to amuse other people, but to highlight training needs. I got caught in the NRA handgun training class I just took for my CCW application. It reminded me that I need to shoot more often and not get too eager to pull the trigger and react to the recoil. tom

I can see a place for it in training, but generally, when I have used it, I actually asked someone to laod my revolver for me, with a random empty or two. I think if you said to the trainee that at some point he will be handed a firearm with no round in the chamber, and he will not know when, that would be fine. I just got the impression that the people above who did this, did it primarily for the entertainment value. If I misunderstood, then I misunderstood. That's what it seemed like to me. We need to be careful not to turn new shooters off by intentionally embarrassing them publicly. We were all beginners at one point. I haven't been a beginner since I was eight, but I don't remember anyone pulling a stunt like that on me. If they had, I might have been discouraged from continuing in the shooting sports. A relative of mine, when he was a boy, had his first experience shooting under the "instruction" of a joker who told him to hold the butt of the 12 guage shotgun (loaded with slugs) just a couple of inches in front of his shoulder when he fired. That was the last time he picked up a firearm.

I don't use the empty-chamber technique to trick someone into looking foolish before others or even to me (often, we two are the only ones there). Nor do I use it with beginners. It's the only way that I know to show an experienced shooter that in spite of all his honest denials that he doesn't flinch, he does. To recover or improve his shooting, he has to realize that his flinch is a real problem.

In a roughly parallel situation, my hotel roommate at an NRA convention -- one of the most popular of today's gun writers -- complained that I snored. I knew that I did -- had never denied it -- but he denied that he did. Said his wife claimed that he did, but still denied it. He snored much worse than I did (according to my wife's reports of my mild, occasional snoring and my experience with his very loud constant snoring).

He went to bed earlier than I did and went to full-volume sleep long before I dropped-off. The second night, I let him get his saw into full roar and taped several seconds of it. The next morning, without saying a word, I rewound the tape and played it while he was getting dressed. He immediately knew who'd been making that noise, and when.

"That's a dirty trick!" he said. I don't think it was.

The stark contrast between (a) an experienced shooter's usually emphatic denial that he flinches, and (b) the solid, undeniable evidence that he does, makes the evidence frequently very funny. But "funny" is the result, not the purpose.

Some of us do have positive, constructive motives for what we think, do, and report -- despite the too-ready, cocked and primed, jump-to-conclusions cynicism of contentious opiners who love to be given but not to give the benefit of any impression. Some of us are as conscientious, as thoughtful, and as respectful of others as you think you are.

Ken, me thinks thou doth protest too much. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am as guilty as anyone I suppose.



Sights line up, quivering. Anxiously you begin to pull the trigger, uncertain of what to expect. Hammer, drops...click. Muzzle dives down then back up. Look around to see if anyone noticed. They are laughing and you know you look like Marvin Marshin, "Wha...there was supposed to be an earth-shattering KABOOM!"



Fortunately, I find this usually helps me because on the next shot, I am determined not to embarass myself twice.



BTW, I usually end up laughing at myself as well. I may be yet a youngster at 21 but I am fairly certain, still, that those who do not learn to laugh at their own mistakes live short lives fraught with misery and tears. When I flinch, I usally sniker to myself, even when there isn't an audience. Then I buckle down and try to get it right...repeat as necessary.

"I may be yet a youngster at 21 but I am fairly certain, still, that those who do not learn to laugh at their own mistakes live short lives fraught with misery and tears."

You are wise, beyond your years, RemFan! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-FreeMe

Almost right -- just substitute themselves for "their own mistakes," and you'll have it hammered flat and nailed down.

At least two generations before I came along, and long before anybody reduced it to a motto, a Howell family trait was "take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself." It's a wonderful "secret" key to the great fun that life can be. You miss a lot of fun and laughter otherwise. And no one else has to be around for the fun to be rich.

You are indeed like most of us. I too have owned about a dozen Ruger Redhawks, Blackhawks, S&W 29's etc. Now a days my big bore pistol is a Glock 21. If a 45 caliber bullet at 950-1000 fps can't solve the problem I needed a rifle anyhow.

I challenge most big bore shooters to this simple test. Take a paper plate and staple it the target at 15 yards. Then empty your pistol as fast as possible on target. How many rounds hit the dinner plate. 1 for most and two for seasoned shooters near the 12 o'clock area of the plate. Repeat the exercise with the .45 auto of your choice.

When I shoot handguns the fun begins with a Ruger 22 auto with a 5.5 inch bull barrel.

A sack of potatoes and a .22. There are few shooting activities more enjoyable. Unfortunately, there are fewer and fewer places where you can do that kind of thing. What a shame that every kid can't enjoy a day outside with a .22 and various targets of opportunity.

A M E N Hawk

The_Real_Hawkeye,

You might be the only person here who can believe what I am going to write.

When I purchased a FA .454, I based the purchase on the balistics. Originally I shot the FA 260 grainers, but discovered the 300 XTPs were a bunch cheaper. They averaged about 1,625 fps.

One day at lunch the conversation turned to firearms. I told them about mine. One of the fellows indicated he wanted to shoot it. I suggested we go about a quareter mile down the road and he could shoot it. Away we went. "What should I shoot?" he asked. "Shoot the big oak about fifty yards over there," indicating an old oak about four feet in diameter. Where he hit a piece of bark about 2" square flew off. He handed back and told me he did not want to shoot it again.

By then I had practiced and was just plain good with it. I put it up in good shooting position. For me that is. I rested the Pacmyer pistol grip on the fat part of the left hand with the left elbow against the ribs. (It hurts if you put the pistol grip in the palm!) A very stable platform. At the shot I saw the 2" square get bigger and a second later was on the way down. Before I hit the ground I had regained conscienceness enough to hear him excitedly say, "Did you hit that!?" The very next second his question and tone changed to, "What happened?" The blood coming from my forehead showed where I was pistol whipped. You see, my only thought was "sight picture and trigger control...nice an' easy." The next week that .454 was in the mail to get a muzzle brake. Cut the recoil by at least 40%.

Wow! What a story. No, I've never been beaned by my own handgun before, though I can imagine that if you hold it in a certain way, it could do that. Yeah, you can't, unfortunately, just think of a steady sight picture and trigger control with the big bucking handguns, because there is the reality that they could very well bang you in the head, so you also have to focus on firmness and tension in your arms. It makes accuracy a little more challenging, but then we're not talking about a .22.

I bought a Blackhawk a few years ago in 44 Magnum and it was distinctly unpleasant to shoot to me and to my nephew. I took it back. Fortunately the seller was a relative so no lost money.

I am now interested in the 45 Long Colt. What are the differences in the Vaquero, Birdshead Vaquero, Bisley, Bisley Vaquero, and the Blackhawk? Is a certain grip usually more pleasant to shoot? Which one most closely duplicates the Colt? Is there another brand besides Ruger that I need to check out that is in the same price range as the Rugers?

The standard loading of black powder and a certain grain weight in the late 1800's, is it more easy on the newcomer?

I have no problem with rifle recoil up to 338 Win Mag but the pistol I had turned me off for the past few years.

the original 45 colt load put the 250 gr bullet out around 900 +fps. Its has pretty healthy recoil None of the Rugers duplicate a Colt. The vaquero sort of looks like one but thats where the similarity ends. Most people say the Rugers Bisley version is easier to handle recoil.

That would be about 300 fps slower than a 44 magnum and about 300 less foot pounds of energy less so that should definitely cut down on recoil.
I just read in Gun Tests 2000 that while the Ruger Bisley grip is not like the original Colt Bisley grip, that it does indeed handle recoil better as you stated. It stated that the original Colt bisley has the same grip angle as the 1911 .45 Auto. The grip shape of the Ruger Bisley is similar to Linebaugh's for the .475 and .500.

Yes that defintely less recoil than a 44, but don't let the numbers fool you. I once stopped a charolais bull that weighed close to a ton from reaking anymore havoc on the world with one slug from my 45. that was with my favorite handload of 9gr unique and a 250 gr cast swc. That load will also penetrate both sides of an antelopes rib cage at 50 yds with no problem.

Well, the standared grip is close to the original Colt "P", the birdshead lets the gun "roll" in your hand and is fairly easy on the hand but slow for follow up shots. Now my favorite is the Bisley, just seems to transfere recoil much softer to my hands and with the Bisley hammer is quite quick with follow up shot. Y M M V. Good luck, the 45 Colt is probably one of the most versatile calibers out there.

Well the Ruger grip is close to the Colt, but I was always told only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I like the feel of my Colts better than the Ruger, but the Rugers can be loaded a bunch stouter.