OK, you are laughing already, I know. Here is the question. All I have for handguns are a .22lr, and a snub nosed .38. Since it's all I have, I would like to carry it for any problems I might have with bears or cats while backpacking/scouting. So, If you HAD to pick a factory load for this, what would it be?

Trade for at least a 4 inch 357 mag.

Do you own a rifle? The only reason to use a handgun is if there isn't a rifle around, but if you have a rifle then one is around.

I'm sure it will penetrate with hard cast loads, but it ain't what I'd want. It's your ass, so I'm not about to say no.

Load the 38 SPL to max with Hard Cast Bullets and shoot straight . The 38 is better than nothing and if you don't make it then you when down fighting. You might just be better off buying some pepper spray.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=452535

Evidently you don't reload, but if you did, you could better this ammo considerably by using the same components with a more powerful powder charge. I don't know of any +P or +P+ loadings with solid bullets. The FMJ here should help with penetration, which is what you will need if attacked, even by a smallish Black Bear, which is what my assumption is you are talking about.

I have chronographed Buffalo Bore .38 Special +P 158 grain GCHP at the exact same velocity as .357 Magnum Fiochi 158 grain XTP out of my 3 inch Ruger SP101. That is what I would carry. I carry the SP101 while bow hunting, but I have been stoking it with Buffalo Bore's 180 gr. .357 load after a couple of the .38s. Better plan on taking some damage in a close range encounter.

you're talking close up defense..
( I imagined some one try to HUNT bear with a snubbie .38 ! )

I guess it comes down to how many body parts your willing to sacrifice and the bear.
A cute little Black bear cub would be frightened off by the 22.

A charging grizzly might not even hear it go off!
And if a pack of Kodiaks was chewin my parts off,
I'd use the last 38......to my temple!

You'd be best served with a hard cast 158 grain semi-wadcutter loaded as hot as possible. Still inadequate, but you won't do better. You most definitely don't want a hollow point of any sort, nor a lightweight bullet.

Jeeezz.........guns and Booze don't mix.......... But you better be REAL drunk when he gets a hold of you.
Doesn't matter what you drink...............you are drinking for effect.

Abner:

I just asked myself what Phil Shoemaker would say if I were to ask him about a .38 snubbie for bears of any size.

Who am I kidding? I would never, ever ask him.

Think you need to get a grip.

- Tom

Probably no one will agree with me, but I'd choose the one that I could shoot best. That's because the 2 inch .38's are often very hard to shoot well under stress. The hotter the load, the worse they are.
With either, you'd need to understand that you'll probably have to hit him in the eye or hope the bullet runs up or alongside the nose and reaches the brain. I've been told this can happen, but alot would depend on just what you hit and how any critter reacts to such a hit.
For a .22 LR, I'd pack CCI Velocitors and hope I won't need it. E

You'd be better served to get another gun. I would not use either of your choices for what you're asking. No doubt a hit would eventually cause the bears demise, but what good is that if the bear dies a week after you.

i ran accross a bear a number of years ago up close and personal, an arizona black bear. I had with me a hi cap 9mm.
It was good that day the bear was in a good mood.
And that experience set me off on a quest for suitable defense.
I saw a brochure a few years ago at the williams forest service office stating you were in bear country, and if approached you should rattle a tin can with pebbles in it, and stand real tall.
I kind of went with a marlin guide gun in .45/70 with 405grain hard cast slugs. And either a glock 20 loaded up to the original 1200fps 200grainers, or a .41 or .44 magnum
Having said that i have been somewhat experimenting with 200 grain and 230 grain lead bullets in .38special. But i don't think i would want to irritate a bear with them.

An acquaintance managed to take down a black bear who charged him while he was bowhunting in 2009. He got off 9 rounds with a Springfield XD .40. The bear clawed him across the stomach, and caused an infection. I don't know what ammo the guy was using, but it probably was over the counter self defense ammo.

here is that 230 grainer, food for thought
http://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.html

And be sure to file down the front sight...

I would not want to leave this world - ate by a bear and schit out on a stump.

Highly recommend the biggest handgun firepower you can tolerate and shoot with confidence.

I forgot to add that he should make sure the revolver is coated with a heavy layer of grease.

Abner, you did not mention in what State you'll be hiking and scouting. Are there Black bears and Mountain lions in your State??

As for .38 Spec. factory ammo, as others have mentioned, the 158 grains LSWC ammo would be about as good as it'll get. I would mention that you might have more possibility of encountering two legged varmints in most parts of the "lower 48," than bears and lions.

If you are scouting for hunting, I'll assume you will be using a rifle to hunt. If I were concerned about bears and lions while scouting, I'd have my hunting rifle in hand.

That's just my opinion.

L.W.

I want the video of the bear using the 38 as a suppository on you.

And I you.

I'd take that over cancer or drooling away in a nursing home.

Bears should not be allowed to own handguns of any caliber size or power level

Ah, I always knew you were one of those anti-gun freaks pretending to be a hunter/gun looney JWP......... Just kidding. E

Just think of that Bear firing his 38 soecial from behind cover... The tought makes me laugh

You have a good point there, however I can come up with a lot of other ways more preferable to meet my maker then ending up as a pile of bear crap. (as if I really had a choice in the matter)

Damn Liberal...Don't you know we have a right to keep and arm bears??

Well, your best defense against bears is understanding them and knowing how to stomp around in their stomping ground. If all you have is a .38 Snubbie, then that's what you have. Consider some high pressure pepper spray as your first defense and the .38 as last ditch. Black bears are not aggressive at all unless you push them into a corner. 99.9% of the time the only people who find themselves in a fight with a bear either pushed the situation or were oblivious of how to wander in bear country and came between a bear and her cubs. In the case of Griz, if you surprise them and you're inside 50 yards, they'll often charge, so you'd really better know what you're doing in griz country.

Take the .38 with a +P 158 SWC, and remember it's 4 for the bear and 1 for you. Go with God.

OK, OK, I give! I kind of figured I'd get raked over the coals on my question. I really didn't think I'd get any "Sure it's plenty of gun" answers, but like I said, it's all I have as far as pistols. Anyway, I backpack in bear country (Black bear) every year and have never had any problems, and I kill a bear almost every year with my bow or rifle. I just always wonder when I'll run into that cranky bear and if the .38spcl would be worth carrying. Apparently it's not. I did have one run-in two years ago, while scouting for hunting, with a bear that didn't run off. It actually climbed a tree across a small gully about 60 yds. off and looked at me. I had my 38 with me and thought, "This thing isn't going to stop that bear if it decides to come at me". That little encounter is what prompted my origional question. Anyway, Thanks for the laughs.

You've made similar statements before Steelhead. The guy said he wants something to carry while backpacking.

If you are going to carry 50-70 lbs on your back for a 3-7 day trek, is it really so hard to understand why a sidearm would have an advantage over a rifle? You've called me stupid before, but gee....

Abner, I have personel knowledge of a camp tent crawling griz that was finished off with a 38 in Montana in the 1970's as my stepdad is the one that ended up in the fire over it. You would be best served with a heavier pistol but if that is not possible load your 38 with a heavy hard cast SWC pushed as hard as it will go and avoid at all cost getting your butt in any situation that you would need it by being as noisy as you can while trekking. Russ

What blanket said - and - a 38 spl beats the HE// out of fingernails !!
Mark

The noise of the round going off and hitting the ground may scare it away...

P.S. You shot that bear with the 38 Special it will probably EVENTUALLY die. Most likely you will first...

Get another gun in a more effective chambering. How much is your life or friends and families worth?

In the chamberings you have I'm undecided but you might be better off to throw the gun at the bear.

Seen the 38spcl fail on a medium black bear, more than one slug richochet off the bear's skull (this was discovered later while skinning the bear). Another houndsman came to the rescue with the almighty 30-30!

Move up to the 41mag, 45 long colt, or 44mag.

MtnHtr

Abner, there was a lot of kidding on this thread but you appear to be a good sport.

Rather then purchasing another handgun, you may want to consider the buddy system while hiking and scouting. Just make sure the buddy is slower than you are.

Now having been in such a situation as a bear trying to chew you up, I can honestly say, that having a handgun may make one feel better mentally but unless you have one of the biggest made such as the .44mag with 300 grain hardcast bullets or a .454 Casul, I would want a fast operating lever gun in 45/70 or 444 magnum in my hands instead.

AND it will put an end to the suffering...
no YOUR suffering and screaming.
Then the bear can enjoy his snack in peace!

Just count your shots and save the last one !

I think I'll go with Roundoak's advise. I have some rather rotund friends I think I can out run. Other than that, I don't see a larger handgun in the budget, and I'm sure not carrying a rifle on a back pack trip (other than a back pack hunting trip) so I guess I'll just keep dong what I've been doing for thirty years and not worry about it. I will, as always, have my 38 along for two legged problems.

You sir are an experienced hand in the woods, and have far more experience with black bears than most.

FWIW in most all the accounts of black bear predation on humans I have read is that the bear basically just walked up and started chewing on them. In such a situation, you armed with a .38 snub, my money'd be on you coming out on top, using the snub at contact distance.

For my own part, I carried a .357 Mod 60 j-frame in the woods for years, then this past summer I ran into a 400lb wild boar that weren't inclined to run. Didn't come down to actual shooting but it DID make an impression, more so than the black bears I encountered once in a when I used to live up North.

Upgraded to a 10mm Glock 29 and ain't looked back, shoulda done it years ago, about the most foot-pounds per ounce of any easily-packed, easily-shot handgun out there....



Birdwatcher

A 38 special is all I carry when bowhunting........couple reasons. First there are no Grizzlies where I hunt. And one time of carrying out an elk in the dark by myself unarmed was enough. Even just a little .38 feels way better than nothing on those strolls in the dark. I have owned a 44mag and 45 colt - neither of which go with, because they are too big, heavy and bulky for backcountry bowhunting trips. So my plan if necessary is to make a lot of noise possibly a .38 shot in front of Mr Bear (or Wolf) then give him one heck of a belly ache before the foot race starts....most of the bears I have encountered were pretty skittish and would prefer to be left alone. Exception-20 yards from a campground bear in the dark last summer - it took a bit of hollering to get him to move on, but he finally did. NO shooting of any type in that situation. If I though there was a high chance of confrontation, then .44 mag would get the nod.

I've only killed two Black bears so in no way, shape, or form, am I an expert on "bear killin'". I will say that I know the structure of a Black bear's skull, considering I have one I killed on my office bookcase that is B&C measured 19 1/16", which is a pretty good sized Black bear.

I would not try to stop a charging Black bear with body shots from a .38 Special.

If Abner is going to continue carrying his .38 Spec., I strongly advise doing a lot of practice with it with regard to hitting a charging Black bear in the nose, or mouth. If either of those two targets can be hit head on, the bullet will travel straight into the bear's brain. End of problem.

Nose or mouth a difficult target? Of course, but hitting straight into the mouth or nose will certainly stop "Mr. Smokey" right there.

Practice on some close up, moving forward targets, if possible.

I say again, those are difficult targets.... but that's what practice is for, isn't it?

L.W.

That;s a great idea!
Wound your buddy in the foot!

birdie, i would get some specialty ammo for that 10mm. most of the factory stuff i have seen loads to be loaded pretty much like a .40 s&w.

That's the ticket ColsPaul! The 38 may not be a good bear stopper, but I bet I could wing a buddy and slow him up a bit.

I watched the Outdoor channel tonight and they had a program on bears and what to use if your being charged by a grizzly or black bear. The conservation people said it is more likely for a person to scare off the bear rather than try to shoot it with a firearm, pistol being the main tool of defense.

They stated that one would have to fire from the hip in order to got the shot off.........Ummmmmmm OK! They were really pushing the bear spray because it carries such a broader path in order to hit the bear in the first place and most hunters under strees would be more apt to miss the bear while it was charging.

The fellow deminstrating the pistol had a Western type rig on his hip line in the Cowboy movies. I myself don't carry a pistol that way for starters and would have instead a .444 Marlin with hardcast bullets or my .338-Win mag and 250 grain bullets. So what do you guys think is the better defense for warding off a charging bear period.

A 475 Linebaugh, 500 JRH or Linebaugh, they will put the samck down on a Bear BTDT

???? What the fhug kinda 10's are you buying?
and what .40 S & W shoots 200 grains to 1300 fps?

I am not buying 10mm i reload my own to the original specs mostly
what is was refering to was if you check the ballistics on a lot of factory ammo, not the double tap, etc., you will see similar ballistics to .40
i know full well .40 doesn't push 200grainers to 1300, but find some remington etc that does in 10mm
even the loading manuals have detuned the 10mm compared to some of the older manuals.

You'd be much, much better off with bear spray. Lighter, cheaper, and much better statistics than any conceivable 38spl load. If you can't gain proficiency and carry something of reasonable power level, then go with spray. Plus spray gives you a non-lethal way of dealing with somebody's "loving" pet.

You'd play He!! trying to end your pain with spray.
But Yogi might enjoy the Cajun spice!

I have no problem with a good dog having a handgun....

10mm ain't falling off the shelves due to overcrowding around here

But thanks for the heads-up. I've been using Hornaday 200 grain XTP, mostly because I can find it. But turns out they only claim 1050 fps/490 ft. lbs. Quite an eye-opener.

Like you said, no a whole lot hotter than the .40 S&W (at twice the price ).

Birdwatcher

Consider leaving it home. Taking a .38, regardless of load, might fool you into thinking you had a gun. You're better off acting like you're unarmed and taking appropriate precautions than fooling yourself into thinking you're adequately protected.

Otherwise, consider carrying whatever load you'd take for 2 legged pests and get some bear spray.

Tom

I would go with the 150 grain hard cast wad cutter

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=23