Hey Gang,

I've read that the Federal Nyclad 129gr HP "Chief's load" is the best potential stopper for use with a snub-nosed revolver. I've also heard that it's a LE only round. Is the Federal HydraShock Tactical +P 129 gr HP load the same? Any recommendations?

Also, do you know if performance through a 4" barrel would be much poorer with a round designed for snubs?

Thanks!

JJ

Two completely different bullets. The Nyclad is a (non +P) 125gr lead bullet with a nylon coating to keep it from fouling. The 129 is a +P jacketed bullet. The Nyclad is good out of a snubby but I carry either Corbon DPX or Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel +P 135gr. It is made for snubbies.

Thanks UP!

What am I thinking of? I thought there was a Federal "Chief's Load" that was not available to the public. Is that the +P HP you're talking about?

JJ

I like the Buffalo Bore stuff

Hornady Critical Defense is getting good reviews

Speer Gold Dot short barrel. It was designed for use out of short barrel weapons. Available in semi-auto, calibers also.

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel +P 135gr. is my preferred as it has enough punch but lower muzzle blast and flash than other loads.

Gotta go with TLEE on this one.

I also carry the Gold Dots....Russ

Don't carry a .38 Special very often but when I do it is with Corbon Powr'Ball... It is also what I carry daily in my .38 Super...

Speed Kills...

Bob

I still haven't heard of any shootings with it. I know that when Hornady did a demonstration for MI DNR of 40S&W CD, they ended it when the ammo didn't perform the way that it was supposed to.

I believe that the standard pressure Nyclad load was called that. When it came out in the '90's, the J-frames weren't rated for +P yet.

38 Spl +P lead hollowpoint. Winchester, Remington or Federal.

Thanks Guys! You gave me plenty of good ideas. So much to do and so little time!

JJ

Another +1 on that load.

I haven't seen that Speer short barrel .38 stuff available for a long time. Seems to be constantly on back order, with lead times unknown.

Paul

In the past I have carried 158 gr.+P LHP (which i still think is a good choice), 125 gr. Nyclad, Hydrashoks,and right now Critical defense. I have tested them all in our standard testing medium (2 1/2 gal. water jugs) and I'm pretty sure you don't want to get shot with any of them.

J-Frame Smiths (Chiefs Special model 36 and Chiefs Special Stainless model 60) were not rated for +P ammo until 1996. If you have a Model 36-9 or 60-9 then you have one that is engineered to handle +P ammo; earlier Chiefs Specials were not designed for the hotter +P loadings and, long term at least, one would probably be better off not subjecting their J-Frame pistols to heavy loads.

nor were the Colt Detective Special, Cobra, Diamondback and Agent...at least not the older ones...and at least for a steady diet...I use the Federal 125GR standard velocity Nyclad in those and the +P stuff for my newer 642-2...

Bill

The best 38 Spl load I have ever seen is the FBI Win 158 gr Lead SWHP. I have seen three people shot with this load and they where DOA. believe me it works. It was the standard every other 38 Spl was judged against a few years back or i should say about 40 years back. My carry load in my 38's is the Speer 3/4 Jacket HP with Unique.

If the Speer GD load is unavailable, them the tried and true 158 grain SWCHP +P "FBI" load is reliable and available. It is never a poor choice.

I'm a fan of the Buffalo Bore ammo for my .38 Specials. The +P 158 gr. LSWC-HP is a dandy. So is their standard velocity loading of the old "FBI load." If the gun is an Airweight, then I like their hardcast 150 gr. full wadcutter standard velocity load.

OK, maybe this is a dumb question but is that Fedral Nyclad ammo still being made. The only Nyclad ammo I've seen os a box of S&W marked Chief Special 125 gr. semi-wadcutter hollow point, #N387N. Apparently theyw ere not Plus P ammo. The only reason I even know about that one is the box of ammo was givent to me, mostly full. There are some other .38 shells that look like they're Nyclad but are headstamped Federal and appear to be 158 gr. SWC bullets. The 125 gr. HP's are hearstamped S&W.
Paul B.

Yep, here it is...
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=828

I read that the 158 gr +P LSWC-HP bullet ("FBI" or "Chicago" load) is designed for a 4" or greater barrel. Are you guys who are fans of these having luck with them out of a 2" barrel?

I like the 135 gr Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel. I do have some 158 gr LSWCHP+p in my speed loader. I have tested alot of 38 loads out of my Smith model 638 snubby, those 2 loads do the best. The Corbon DPX does not open all the way out of my snubby, but I like it out of my 380, 9mm, and 45s.

PJ, hang on to that S&W Nyclad, it's become something of a collectors item from what I've been told. Back in the 80's when we were doing alot of shooting at the old Hodgdon's indoor shooting range, I was given some of it to test. The purpose of the Nyclad (according to the rep that gave it to me) was to lower airborne lead emissions while shooting on indoor ranges. Alot of us had highly elevated lead levels in our blood and the range had to change their ventilation system. I don't recall them giving any ballistic or barrel saving attributes to the ammo, just that it would produce less airborne toxins. Unfortunately I shot all but 1/2 box of what I had. Hang on to it.

One thing nobody has mentioned is - check your point of impact, especially at longer ranges, say up to 25 yards. It won't make a difference up close but at longer range the lighter bullets tend to hit low, and you could be surprised at how much difference it makes - or not.

This past winter I finished off a coyote with a 110-gr +P Hornady Critical Defense from a 2" Charter Off-Duty .38 Spl. Expansion was ovalized, measuring .50" on the long axis and .45 on the short. Retained weight was 98.2 grains. The recovered examples Hornady shows on their web site expanded into a jagged star shape but the "petals" on my example were rolled back, leaving a much smoother outline.

I shot it in the top of the skull aiming straight down into the brain box. I didn't recover the bullet on site but it fell out of the 'yote's mouth as I was skinning it out. Those are very respectable expansion numbers, and you'd expect a bullet to shed a little weight crushing all that bone, but it disturbs me there was no exit wound when it had so little dog in its way.

Max energy at close range with a lot of bone to penetrate and the bullet stayed together , pretty good performance if you ask me

http://www.grantcunningham.com/coltammo.html
I used to have a photo of a Colt's manual where it shows what this web site says. Just limited use on the Colt's.

Exactly, that's why I stay away from 110 grain bullets in the 38's

I concur that the post 72 DS Agent Cobras were rated +P. I had one of the last parkerized Agents that thrived on the 158 HP loads. I would still be carrying it but it was stolen by a first responder when my house burned to the ground (another story.)

I still carry +p 158 HPs in a non +p Bodyguard though I practice with non+p hand loads.

Kevin I hope you will add your two cents as your knowledge of the current situatiin exceeds that of a bunch of us, and IMHO the snub special still has a role in warm weather and drop in the pocket concealed carry.

I've got a full, pristine box of 125 .38 +Ps. I thought the nylon was to reduce barrel leading while still using a very soft lead bullet.

Expat

Me too. Now.

You sure could be right Expat, that may have been it's purpose. It's possible that the ammo's introduction was coincidental with our lead-level issues and I've just co-joined the two in my memory.

Correct.

I like the buffalo bore 158 grain LSWC HP in standard velocity out of the 2 inch guns.

The reason that the 158GR LSWCHP +P did so well beyond just being a good combination is that it is a Lead (soft, malleable) Semi-Wad Cutter (less taper and big hollow point), Hollow point...the +P gave it decent (for a .38 Special) velocity and the large opening and soft lead worked together to make it much more likely to open up than most the other stuff available...

Federal Nyclad was nearly the same bullet (with variances on velocity and weight) covered in a soft (when warmed by the exploding gasses) nylon jacket so it wouldn't get dented or dinged up in the revolvers (or pistols...they had it for other firearms too) or speedloaders as well as to reduce barrel lead fouling...

Bill

Speer Gold Dot

Here is a 158 grain Speer Gold Dot fired from my 357 mag


See any expasion? I don't, but pentration was good

Well thanks for the vote of confidence, but I think there are a LOT of smart guys on this forum. But since you asked...

I would pretty much do as you do whether the gun is rated for +P or not. Practice with standard pressure, verify your zero with the +P's, and carry the +P's. The .38 Special is one of the few handgun cartridges that truely benefits from +P loadings.

I also consider small fram revolvers semi-disposible. Pocket guns get used hard, treated rough, so I don't worry too much about beating them up with +P's. Buffalo Bore does make some standard pressure ammo that's pretty good though.

JWP475, I had the exact same results with the 158 gr. GD out of a 357, zero expansion. All of the other Gold Dots I have test expanded perfectly, with the exception being the 60 gr. GD in 32 cal.

THe 230 grain GD in the 45 ACP and the 210 in the 41 mag expand A-LOT

+1

Yep, that, or the old standard of a 158 grain soft LSWCHP +P.

Doesn't a 158 gr. bullet create quite a bit more recoil and muzzle flip in a snubby revolver? And wouldn't a 135 or even 110 or 125 grain bullet work better in a snubby?

Buff Bore has a nice snubby (non +P) load that I like a lot. It's a 150 grain full wadcutter, but made of hard cast lead alloy instead of soft target wadcutter lead, and it comes out of a two inch barrel at 850 fps. Here it is: Here

The idea is that it has a huge meplate (maximum for caliber), so you don't need to worry about expansion, as that's a very destructive shape right there already, making a very traumatic .357 caliber, flesh-tearing, hole, whereas an unexpanded hollow point would tend to do less damage due to smaller meplate.

With +P out of a short barrel, there's generally a lot of wasted powder burning past the muzzle anyway.

PS You might ask yourself, "Then why aren't all self-defense loads shaped like that?" The reason is that it's highly inefficient aerodynamically, i.e., at long range, it will lose more velocity than a bullet with a smaller meplate, but since snubbies are generally thought of as fairly close-range, civilian self-defense guns, you are not so much worried about retained energy much beyond room distances, at which distances there's no discernible difference between a maximum meplate bullet and an aerodynamically shaped bullet. In other words, in a revolver, you could well argue that every round designed for civilian self-defense should be maximum meplate, unless you're thinking in terms of self-defense in the great outdoors, in which case you might well be better served by a more aerodynamically shaped bullet.

Here are the wadcutters . . .

158s create more flip, sure.

But, they also create more impact momentum, and a soft lead LSWCHP works.

That, and a LOT of snubbies have those fixed sights regulated for 158s.

That's true, but I don't recall that being a problem at typical self-defense ranges.

Just for giggles,
I took some jacketed wadcutters and sawed them into thirds
They weight about 40-45 grains each.
Then over a stiff load of Unique I crimped three of them into 38 cases.

My 1 " ( or less ) Ruby is only good to about 15 feet anyway..
so why not make a tiny shotgun out of it?
At 10 feet, each shot groups about 2".

Don't know if they would good for anything except, giggles.

This was once a popular self defense load for .38 Special, i.e., essentially three disks stacked together like a wadcutter. Makes three holes instead of one per round. Penetration isn't wonderful, though, each projectile lacking much in the way of sectional density.