Bears can hit speeds up to about 35MPH. In a head on charge, lead is important. How much lead does one need to hit bear in the head with the first shot? Something to consider and quite frankly I don't have an answer.

Maybe someone of here does who's been there, done that.

If heading towards you, no lead is necessary. If running parallel to you, lots of lead is needed, but then is it really charging you if it's running parallel to you? All angles of approach from one to the other extreme (parallel to direct) will vary as to how much lead is necessary, the closer to direct, the less lead being needed.

The more proximate the animal is, also, the less lead is a necessity. At bear attack ranges, lead is probably not an issue at all for this reason.

What TRH said with one possible caveat of steep terrain. If it's tearing down a hill at you with the grade different than where you're standing there would be an angle involved. Though, as TRH also observed, at "charge" ranges there may be little practical difference.

Different take/question on an old used up subject. Kinda interesting.

I know that at 200 yards I have to lead a coyote about 9' if he's running all out. Read the math somewhere and successfully used it many times. So figure your handgun bullet is going less than a third as fast as my .22-250 but your range is shorter it would end up being about 2.7 feet at 20 yards. That's ROUGH ROUGH math. Is it better than nothing? Your guess is as good as mine.

CB

Not many have ever HAD to it, Thank God!

Lead on an animal that is trying to make you lunch = ZERO!
More likely , one would be hard pressed to get the gun out of the leather in time to get it into his mouth before he chomps down.

Attacks happen so fast, the better use of the pistol is to put oneself out of his misery after the critter has left the scene.

Apparently you're mistaken, as it seems several successful defenses against griz with firearms (including handguns) have been documented.

Professional Hunters in Africa know to get down on one knee when faced with a Lion charge so as to minimize as much of the elevation aspect of shooting an animal moving at high speed. If the animal is coming at you and you are standing, there is SOME lead that needs to be applied, but I can't tell you how much. Depends on the any number of things, the height of the animal, your height, speed of the animal, size of the target and lastly the ballistics of the weapon you're firing.

Really, the best way to figure this out, is to assemble a moving target to replicate as much of the situation as possible. I've seen this done by putting a car on jack stands, then rigging a pully system to use the cars wheels to power the pully that pulled the simulated Lion. Saw this years ago at a shooting contest for double guns. It was rather clever and worked remarkably well.

If you really think you could be facing such a situation, then it's worth your effort to construct such a monstrosity.

But you need to be very realistic; are you REALLY capable of putting ONE shot precisely where it needs to be under such circumstances? In a charge situation, I would say that 99.9% of all shooters are probably better armed with bear spray than a handgun. Certainly there are some who can get it done with a handgun or a rifle, but there are far more who can�t. Just be-bop over to Youtube and look at all the Professional Hunters that botch the shot; AND THAT�S THEIR FRIGGIN JOB!!

vs how many bear attacks that went terribly bad. Armed or not.

Granted, anything is better than your bare hands or a sharp stick...

plus, if you're in the Lower 48, that bear better have powder burns on it or your troubles are just beginning.

Interesting. I just talked to a firend of mine at noon who is a retired guide and outfitter. I asked him about lead from about 25 yards in a full out bear charge. He said pretty much what you said, a person will never get their weapon out of the holster to fire the first shot at 25 yards or less and even if they did there's no hand gun on earth that will drop bear at that range before he gets you. He said the best bear stopper at close range is a twelve gauge shotgun but at that close range you might not even get the shotgun in play before the bear gets you. He said people simply do not realize how fast a bear is, inside of 25 yards. My friend, in the day, put down many a bear so he has some experience.

DD, I think your friend is exaggerating somewhat, or at least not giving you a full answer.

Yes, grizzly bears are extremely quick. If you walk up on one protecting a carcass, the charge will come from inside 25 yards and will be so fast your head will spin (right before he bites it off...). But many encounters occur at that range that don't involve an immediate charge, and you'll have time to unlimber your slug gun or unholster your sidearm. I have unslung my shotgun more than a few times when bears were in the 25-50 yard range, and once inside of 25. Handguns can be deployed equally fast, as can bear spray.

The key is knowledge of bear behavior and habitat, and keeping your eyes and ears open.

I know of one Montana ranger who drew his .357 Magnum while the bear was on top of him, and managed to kill the bear. Range between you and the bear is not the primary consideration when you have to act to deter/abort a bear attack.

35mph is roughly 51fps; which means the bear will be there in about 1.5 seconds. A fast guy with a sufficient gun could get off a shot in time; but I�ll agree with him that inside of 25 yards your chances of putting that ONE shot exactly on the spot are extremely slim. Your chances are much better with bear spray than a handgun; unless you�re Robby Leatham.

As to his assertion that a handgun won�t do that job�you should know better; that�s just BS. As for using a shotgun? More BS. Shotguns against dangerous game have been pretty much a disaster in Africa. And since a Grizzly bear is ABOVE anything on the food chain in Africa, I�d say that the use of something that has been a proven failure even on leopard is nearly guaranteed to be a failure on something like a Griz.

Your best defense against a Griz is not to encounter one. Put the damn bells on our clothing, make noise, and know where you�re going. For the most part the people who are mauled by bears are the incredibly stupid and ignorant. Just don�t be an idiot and you�ll be fine.

When shooting under threat, whether human or animal, hold somewhat low. Natural instinct is to take too coarse a bead, holding up too much front sight, such that in relation to the front sight, the shots tend to go high.

As to the lead required on a running shot, it's moot, don't take it. Lots of line-of-sight rate/crossing shots are difficult under perfect circumstances, let alone under duress. As others here have said, not much need for such a shot in self defense. For the frontal shot, another matter altogether. Hold low, keep shooting.

You might also want to consider filing down the front sight...

File it all the way off and smooth it out real nice.

I don't know about Africa never been there but shotguns with slugs seem to work around here. Many government hunters use them for close in work around here. But whatever.

When that adrenaline is pumping anything can be hard to put down. But again whatever.

DD, you really should stick to stuff you know about.

Not hunting and the outdoors..

a little KY on it might be a good idea, too

that would pretty much eliminate all of his posts.

+ 1

Well said, Kevin.

Never can have enough "what if" bear threads.......

Stephen Herrero wrote a great book about bear attacks, how to avoid them, and what to do in the event of one. He has studied bear behaviour and specific attacks and provides case studies for different attack scenarios. I think everyone recreating in bear country should read it. The book goes into great detail for both black bear attacks and grizzly attacks.

He has a section on defense where he analyzes firearms. It's been awhile since I read it (and my copy is continually out on loan!) but here's some of what I remember. He prefers large caliber rifles (duh!). If I recall he also is a fan of the shotgun, but that has never been a viable option for me (honestly, who is packing a stricly defensive long gun other than a guide). He discusses pistols and bears shot with them with some contempt, both in difficulty of the shot and effectiveness of the round. In his estimation the 44 mag is the minimum effective cartridge. He says to shoot a charging bear in the shoulder. It is a larger/softer target than the skull and breaking the bones there will slow the bear down and buy time.

The best thing about a 12 ga?
It's already in your hands.
( unless it's leanin against the tree and you got you pants down...LOL "

I have always adhered to Capstick's advice:
#1 shot...
still plenty big and lots more of 'em to make the pattern dense!

FWIW, when a shot gun is mentioned by those that actually know what's going on, i.e. NOT Derby Dude, it is a 12 ga. loaded with slugs.

The Alaska Department of Fish and Game, recently issued this bulletin:

In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear conflicts, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.

"We advise outdoorsmen to wear noisy little bells on their clothing so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear.

It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity. Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear manure:

Black bear manure is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur.

Grizzly bear manure has little bells in it and smells like pepper."

Officially, the millionth time that has been posted on an internet hunting forum..

I believe Capsticke did indeed like the shotgun (Win Model 12 IIRC) for trailing up wounded leopards and such. I would bet everything I own that faced with a charge by a large bear he'd want a rifle. (I'd guess his .470 double)

He also advocated wearing a football helmet and a leather jacket when following up on leopard........

yep, and a "leatherneck" LOL
but one can't argue pellet count too much.
00 only equals 12 pills

Herrero's book was pretty good when it first came out in the 80's, but it's outdated. I would certainly recommend it as a part of a well-rounded bear aficionado's library, but for more up-to-date information and advice, I'd recommend J. Gary Shelton's books, including Bear Attacks: The Deadly Truth.

Bwahahaha

I'm thinking slugs myself. Hard to beat almost an ounce of lead at about 1800 feet per second.

Hold what you got, drop down to there level and shoot straight, I would use the biggest meplat bullet in 50 cal. I could load.
Dont think speed would be king in this instance, but moderate velocity and well placed shots from a heavy for caliber bullet is what I hope will save my hide if ever charged by a bear, hog or cat.

Gunner

Yeah, if just 1% of those bears really ended up attacking people, we'd suspect they had been recruted by Al Queda.

I do some guiding every year in the Thorofare country and here on the ranch. Both of which are grizzly habitat. Many of the guides in the thorofare don't carry a long gun and some not even a handgun.

I carry a pre-64 '06 with 220s, and a ghost ring sight on top. I've never had to shoot a charging bear. I did have some communication with Phil Shoemaker and he thought it'd do the job.

Most of the camps in the thorofare have shotguns for bears. They really aren't for stopping charging bears. And they aren't loaded with buckshot or slugs. Use your imagination for the rest. It of course is something I wouldn't do because it is illegal.

That said when the issue of stopping bears does come up many of the guides and outfitters do say the shotgun with buckshot or slugs would be best. However, almost none of them have ever done it. Most bears that I hear about being killed in defense are done so with a hunting rifle or even handgun.

So when looking for a stopping gun for myself I looked at what the folks who have actually done it carry. How many bear hunting guides in Alaska carry shotguns/handguns as stopping guns?

While I haven't had to shoot one yet, we have several close grizz encounters every year. Most of these the bear is moving slowly checking things out. The day one decides to come too close is when we'll see how well my choice works. In the case of the extremely close range, rapid attack you'd better hope your companion has your back. And that situation may in fact be a good case for a handgun, along with other times when it's all you can really carry. Those close range surprise encounters are also why I like having my blue heeler with me because they don't happen then. She goes hunting with me quite a bit. Here she is on the sheep hunt last year.



Sorry for getting so far off track.

Hi Kevin,

1.5 seconds is not a lot of time considering it takes the human brain .75 seconds to process the perception of a threat.

As in all things in life that can cause danger to me, I practice avoidance. While I do fish in the High Sierra where bears are as common as ants at a picnic, I do not tempt fate.

Were I to venture into wilderness areas, I would take a 1911A1 because it's easy to carry, quick to battery, offers many quick follow-up rounds, and recoil is manageable providing sight picture retention. But I'm talking black bears. Were I to venture where girz roams, I'd feel a whole lot better with an 870.

While not always true, it does seem to me that most people place themselves in danger by not using the most powerful thing known to man: the human brain. During one fishing trip to Mammoth Lakes, I witnessed people with video cameras chasing after a bear. That was a mauling waiting to happen.

When I see bears I give them right-of-way. I would much rather have a live & let live outcome. But when I fish with my kids, I will protect them. And the only way I can protect them is my surviving. If a bear were to kill me, what would happen to my kids??? My kids know to stand behind me and slowly back away.

In CA it is legal for fisherman to carry handguns while fishing. I believe we need a national law that allows fisherman to carry weapons while fishing in all national parks. To my way of looking at life, the right to life is a natural right.


Take care,

R

derby_dude,

you're right on the money. I couldn't agree more.


Stay safe,

R

Bear spray is marketed as a viable defense for bears. But I am not sold on it because governmental agents prefer shotguns to bear spray.

To my way of looking at bear defense, if the best bear defense is identified, anything else is less than best. I would want to use the best to save the lives of my kids and me.

Bear spray should be used in ideal conditions. If the wind is blowing in the user's face, s/he will become incapacitated by it. I would not want to become incapacitated were a wild animal threatening the lives of my kids and me.

As in a self-defense incident, a good guy should never surrender tactical advantage. This is why I would never turn my back to any wild animal than can kill me nor would I ever run. However, I will back away slowly and give it everything it wants except our lives. Hell, I'd even make trout almondine for it if that's what it wants.


R

Back in the day (1980's), Alberta F&G and Parks Canada did conjoint firearms training. A buddy of mine and I did it while he was working as a summer student on a U of Alberta research project. Shotguns were Mossberg pump 12-gauges, with slugs. IIRC they were CIL 1-oz Foster-type slugs. Targets were "charging" bear silhouettes on a fast-running pulley. You had to drop to one knee and put 3 shots into the charging bear target in about 3 seconds to pass the course. These wildlife mgmt agencies had a pretty good record for putting bears on the ground with slug guns. I carried a Win Model 12 with 1 oz. slugs for years as my bear defense firearm as a result of that learning experience. Fortunately never had to shoot a bear, but I did put a couple slugs into the ground at a black bear that was looking at me like I was lunch one time while flyfishing in the Swan Hills.

The only bear I killed in that time frame was with a borrowed sporterized .303 Brit mil-surp rifle in my neighbor's garden (he had an ag tag for it, it was all legal) but I would have cheerfully used my Model 12 for that job. I've killed a dozen deer or more with shotguns and slugs and based on the damage on field autopsy on each one, I'd have no problems using a slug gun on angry bears.

By the 90's, the rangers in Kananaskis Country were carrying Remington M700's in 338 Win Mag, with open sights. No handguns. The K-country fishcops apparently weren't happy with their slug guns for grizzly control, but I never saw any data or even "official" anecdotal evidence justifying the switch from slug guns.

There's some good evidence for the efficacy of pepper spray on bears. Gary Shelton's books give some of it.

The advantage of bear spray, IMHO, is its portability. You can carry two cans of spray on your belt more easily than you can a large caliber handgun, and there are a lot of times that a rifle or shotgun needs to be put down for a moment (Ever try to take a dump with a shotgun slung over your shoulder, for example? I have. It can get messy.)

The best bear sprays are very concentrated and shoot a tight stream rather than a spray. You can spray it upwind in even a moderately stiff breeze effectively.

Not off track at all. Good information by someone who has experience in bear country. The dog is an excellent idea.

Hi Doc,

I have tried to reason my way through bear spray. If it does have efficacy, why? Is it the dense plume of fog that scares it off? Is it the sound of discharging spray that provides efficacy? Or does a bear sense pain from concentrated oleoresin capsicum?

I have sprayed a threatening dog with LE grade OC & it didn't seem to phase it. In contrast, I did spray a suspect who wanted to fight me with OC spray. He surrendered before he could say that he wanted to surrender.

Without knowing why bear spray works, I think it might be dangerous to extrapolate effects of OC spray on nearly all humans to bears. Having had to endure the most unpleasant training of it sprayed in my eyes, I would not want to find myself incapacitated by it with a man eater in my midst.

Just as in self-defense, my preferred plan is avoidance. Were I to learn bears are working an area I want to fish, I'd find another fishing hole. And in the Sierra, there are more fishing holes than bears, thank God.


Take care,

R

Anybody that has LE experience with pepper spray will tell you it's a messy proposition and if they have any real experience at all, they will sure as hell admit it don't always work.

Guess who else admits it doesn't always work, on two legged critters and otherwise? The company that makes the schit.


Travis

deflave,

OC spray does not work on approximately 10% of people. It also has little effect on those under the influence of PCP. Otherwise it will work. It worked on me, and it worked on the only combative suspect whom I squirted.

I am skeptical of its purported efficacy on bears. While it might have dissuaded some bears, I would like to know precisely what dissuaded them. And I do know the effect it has on me, which is why I would be reluctant to use it except under ideal conditions; e.g., wind at my back. If I were to remotely think I could become incapacitated by it, I'd use a gun.


Stay safe,

R

Based on my experience as an instructor and an end user, I would up that percentage, maybe double it.



...or those drunk our of their minds, on a number of stimulants, etc.



Yeah, sometimes.



It doesn't "work" on me (it serves to piss me off an closes my eyes for a very short period of time). It also doesn't work for schit on working dogs.

I don't carry the schit on my belt anymore and sure as hell wouldn't bet my safety on it in the woods (yes, I know bear spray and LEO OC are different).

George

I dumped a whole can on a large Pitbull from about 6ft and barely got a reaction-------and not until the last third of the can. Not very inspiring performance.

I wish I still have the pic (one of other handlers might) of our head trainer and his K9 walking through a cloud of OC and tear gas at training. The handler, obviously, has a mask on while the K9 just meanders through.....getting more and more pizzed with each step.

Dump a can of OC on any of our dogs and your just adding some seasoning to what they're about to taste .

George

i've hosed a bear with bear spray. worked like a charm. i diddn't ask it why, tho...

seeing Phil Shoemaker vote for bear spray in THIS THREAD makes me think this experience was not a fluke

I will, as always, defer to those who have experience with the bear spray as to how effective it is. If my azz was the potential meal, however, I believe I would still place my trust in lead.

George

I can only imagine!

BTW, not trusting the spray, and knowing the fastest draw is the gun that's already in my hand, I DID have my pistol in my other hand---------something I would never do if spraying a person, but I quickly weighed the much lower liability with a worthless Pit against a huge set of teeth getting a hold of me!

I'm another one who has no faith in chemical sprays of all kinds for stopping any determined assailant, human or otherwise. BTDT, and have paid dearly for it. Never again will any chemical spray be my opening move in any kind of serious confrontation with man or beast.
I believe bear spray can be a very appropriate choice for nuisance bears or other animals. Since lots of bear caused injuries are apparently from this type of bear problem, it's probably worth having for such things. E

Spot on "E"..... Spray for nuisance bears, but leave the condiments at the table for a determined attacker

this was a LONG time ago, before they started adding pepper to the sprays for humans. Another guy and i were having to fight this guy to get cuffs on him that was royally drunk. Had him on the ground and dumped most of a can of the I think cs spray directly in his face. It was running like water down his face.
He was laughing cause we were slow close it was gagging the other guy and i, not a good situation.
We drove him back to the jail and he was laughing all the way as we had our heads out the window etc.
Now about an hour later he didn't think it was so funny and was begging for something to flush it out.
I wonder if a bear reacts that way?

But it did work.

There seems to be a lot of dense-bobs on this thread who can't seem to process the fact that OC does work. Bear spray works. When you can't carry a gun, or can't carry enough gun, or suck with a gun, then carry bear spray. A $50 can of spray that you can use is infinitely better protection than a $800 gun you can't use.

It would depend upon how much a bear had drunk of what type of spirits. Bears guzzling Jack Daniels can become quite belligerent, especially while playing Texas Hold 'en. In contrast, bears are usually happy with a beer buzz so long as either the Cubs or Bears are winning.


R

dla,

If bear spray does work, why?

Would you trust your life to it?


Thanks,

R

Great advice for people who don't own guns and can't shoot one. But that hardly applies to those of us that post here. E

Sometimes against some people....yep. I wouldn't bet from one person to the next if it will or won't nor would I hand my wife a can and consider her "safe". How many times have you used OC on someone?



I have no personal experience, but it seems to have worked for some of our members. If it works for them (or you) then go for it.



I can carry a gun and I'll carry enough gun. If someone sucks with a gun they can practice. If it's a "nerve" thing that makes 'em suck, I doubt they'll be any cooler with spray.

You only have to make yourself happy, though.

George

It works for two reasons, one of which was bit surprising to me:
(1) It is a nasty irritant (2) the "SWOOSH" noise surprises the bear.

I've seen a couple of videos where the bear starts turning before the spray actually hits him. Maybe it is a learned behavior from a skunk encounter - just a guess.

Bear spray has a better track record than handguns. Absolutely I trust my life to it. And it gives you a non-lethal way to deal with somebody's dog.

I'm not knocking hog-legs - they work. But $50 makes more sense for somebody who is only going to wander into the back country rarely and doesn't have the means or interest to shell out $800 - $1200 for a revolver and then the $ and time for 1k rounds of practice.

dla,

Thanks for the info.

I'll be back in the Sierra this week huntin' brown trout. My primary strategy is avoidance, bear not trout although sometimes I think I'm avoidin' trout, too. Thank God, it's worked so far. The way I got it figured, and I ain't done a lot math lately, if I can carry a handgun, that's the way I'll go. I can't see my carrying a handgun & bear spray, too.

There is a healthy population of black bears in the Eastern Sierra. The wilderness belongs to them. I do not want to shoot a bear. I don't hunt them either. As long as they have no designs on us & they allow us to trespass unharmed into their domain, I prefer to leave 'em just like I find 'em.

There is an excellent trout fishin' hole I've fished that's at the base of the Eastern Sierra. I haven't taken a gun while fishing it because it ain't bear territory. A couple weeks ago I was walking to it a 0 dark thirty. Suddenly the thought came to me that it's classic mountain lion territory. I fear lion more than bear. When I fish it next week I'm thinking I might take a handgun.


Buena Suerte,

R

carry an air horn. loud one.

JBGQUICK,

Is that so the paramedics know where to find you?


R

Yes. I wondered how many making suggestions actually have faced a bear in any situation where the bear isn't already fleeing, if at all. I have and you might have time to think '[bleep]' and then do it, but otherwise you thank God they were satisfied with the bluff.

Bears don't typically face off, unless they are cornered, want food, or are protecting young. They aren't carnivore hunters, so making occasional noises are going to reduce startling them, you might worry if you are catching a lot of fish, or cleaning them, but otherwise, I don't think food is a particular problem. Momma is a unique problem. I am now terrified of cubs.

Someone else posted the reality, if a bear charges, in almost any situation you are in, you will be lucky to draw anything. So if you are going to shoot, you are doing it before any charge, so at what range do you think pepper spray is going to be effective? And at what range do you think you are going to be able to use a pistol effectively.

The pistol is for criminals, not wildlife, and they are much more likely to be the real 'nuisance' and becoming more numerous.

So a noisemaker is really effective, going too and from your fishing hole. Isn't going to scare the fish.

Somebody else on another forum, not the Fire, said the same thing. Loud air horns will stop a bear dead in his tracks and cause him to boogie some where else. I do not know if that's true or not.

JBGQUICK,

Black bears are predators, although they might not prey all that often. They can prey upon large ungulates.

I do recall reading a story in an outdoor magazine of a fisherman, in Minnesota I believe, who was returning with a creel of fish. A black bear killed him and took his fish. Since bears like nutrient-rich fish, just the smell of them on my hands is disconcerting. That's one of the reasons I try to release my catch without taking it out of water and without handling them.

A marina worker in the Eastern Sierra told me that black bears raid fish cleaning stations at night. They don't even have to waste energy looking for their own. They dine on leftovers.

I have heard the loud noise bear defense strategy. And I have heard of black bears attacking and killing humans regardless of defensive strategy. National Geographic airs a program about how dangerous male black bears in heat are. They will kill just to kill.

I live among black bears. In fact, they walk streets of my community at night. That's why I don't walk anywhere at night, avoidance being my primary defense. I have fished a lot in the Eastern Sierra where they're seen in campgrounds & near lakes. So if I see them around I know to find another fishing hole.

Black bears are probably the greatest concern to fishermen in the Eastern Sierra, but there are other critters that can kill me just as dead, including bipedal vermin. I wouldn't doubt felons holed up in the High Sierra. Charles Manson had his ranch in the Eastern Sierra not too far from where we fish. The Eastern Sierra also has a substantial lion population.

The most feared critter in the Eastern Sierra is the elusive but predatory jackolope. Every year many fisherman disappear & are feared to have become 'lope victims. I heard tell of a particularly vicious one that chased a half dozen anglers waist deep in a frigid High Sierra lake & held them at bey until a posse of game wardens chased it & off with RPG's. I think the posse might've wounded it. Chupacabras are becoming a problem in the Eastern Sierra, too. When they get a whiff of bear spray or hear loud horns they come alookin' for dinner. I hear they've taken a liking to afternoon skinny dipping in High Sierra lakes. Not even a gauge works on chupies. But they're slow running downhill, so you got half a chance if you find yourself on a slope & surrounded by a pack of blood-thirsty chupies.

What would fishing be w/o a few good fish tails (tales)?


Buena Suerte,

R

I sprayed between 50-60 individuals (I wont count fogging a bar to clear it out ) and at least a dozen dogs with OC based sprays (stream, mist, gel and foam) and cannot say it ever worked on those that were actually determined to carry out the fight. Yes, the irritant factor eventually took effect (or the gel/foam actually blocked the eyes) and the eyes were forced closed and breathing was more difficult but that would not have been enough to actually stop a fight in the time needed to stop a charge. Usually the spray was used to convince people that they really did not want to fight or is was simply a distraction for the taser or baton that was to follow. The most effective tool against dogs was a simple CO2 extinguisher, that actually worked 100% of the time on dogs.

I completely understand the physiological aspect of how OC works and how the heat factor is measured and I see nothing to support stopping an animal that has a very limited amount of mucus membrane exposed. In every account of a successful bear defense I have found with OC it seemed to involve a less than determined bear. This mirrors my experience with OC, if someone was not committed to the assault or time/distance allowed avoiding the initial contact it worked fairly well. I have no problem with OC being part of the plan but a big problem if it is the only plan.

I guess I might be more impressed with OC if I saw African guides carrying it for defense against the big cats and buffalo.

I've been following this discussion with interesr as to others experience with bear spray on bears. When I go out into the woods here in Wyoming, it is usually in grizzly country. In the course of doing my job I too have used pepper spray on dogs. Some of these dogs are suspected of being used for fighting.So far the spray has been 100% effective. I also just caught a report on the local news by the guy's from the Best of the West series. They were rolling a ball down a hill and trying to shoot it. The conclusion they came to was that roughly 50% of the time, they missed. Having played with the charging bear set up at the Linebaugh shoot's, I'd say that's about right. Their conclusion supposedly matched investigation's of bear defense shooting's in that half the time the bear was just pissed off even more, and the person was mauled and or killed. They further concluded that you are twice as likley to be mauled or killed if you use a handgun for defense against grizzly bears as opposed to pepper spray. Sorry for the long post, but I thought this would maybe add some food for thought.

I don't doubt any of this, but I wonder the percentage of shooters with a scoped rifle that can actually hit a bear in the vitals that is charging. Sorry for the thread hijacking.

I think the problem with these threads is the bear sprayers and the pistol toters are talking about two different scenarios.
The sprayers are talking about a bear still running at you where most of the toters know the pistol is for muzzle to fur last ditch defence.

At least that's my take on it based on the sprayers most common reasoning against pistol use of not being able to consistently hit the target.

Same applies to those who say use your rifle or shotgun, they're talking about stopping the bear while it's coming at you, which I agree with.

Now no one in their right mind is going to stand and wait till they're being chewed before trying to stop it from happening but once you're on your back under a bear I think most sane people would want something that's going to do damage to the bear.
I also think most pistol toters have enough sense to try to avoid being charged and to try to do something to cause the bear to find easier "prey" or a more comfortable place to be, or to use their rifle if they have time and room to do so.

Good points, maarty.

I think that most people, and this thread is no exception, tend to oversimplify bear behavior and the dynamics of aggressive bear encounters.

I've a lot of experience in bear encounters, some 30+ encounters inside 40 yards, which is a lot if you're not a bear biologist or frequent bear hunter. These have been something like 3 to 1 grizzly encounters, since most of my backcountry ramblings have been in grizzly country rather than black bear country. I have been bluff-charged twice and stalked/hunted once; I've had bears completely ignore me, others have growled and bristled, others have looked at me with varying degrees of apparent curiosity and then either continued about their business or moved away in a non-threatening manner. I don't claim to be a bear expert, but based on the wide variety of bear behaviors that I've personally observed, I'd say it's pretty difficult to say what exactly is a "typical" bear encounter.

As I've posted earlier and on other threads, Herrero's book is a good general reference, and Gary Shelton's "Bear Attacks" books are outstanding learning tools which take into account the more recent developments in bear behavior, use of pepper spray, and so forth.

I would STRONGLY urge anyone concerned about what to carry for defense in bear country to read these books. After reading them, I think it will be a lot easier to separate the useful replies in a thread like this from the opinionated ramblings of the ill-informed.

I think Doc makes excellent points about the variety of encounters you can face. I think its also fair to say the variety of bear encounters represents how the affectiveness of OC could be based on how determined the bear is. A curious bear that is getting closer hoping you will give up your pack or string of fish is going to be much easier to turn with spray than a pissed off mama if you accidently get between her and a cub.

This is what I had in mind when I mentioned having spray can definetly be a part of your plan but not your only plan.

Dang jpw, it took you six pages to get to your condiment joke? You must be slowing down.

I really think people that minimize the effectiveness of bear spray haven't used it. So much easier to hit a fast moving, bouncing target with a jet stream that you can see, and adjust your aim with, than a bullet. And the pepper spray will likely cause the bear to stop his charge and worry about his eyes - a bullet anywhere but in the CNS? Incredible rage that will get you killed.

no, the condiment 'joke' has surfaced several times earlier in this thread.

here is the FWP PDF on the subject. they seem to agree.

LINKY

Thanks for the link. I'll think on it.

...I am currently in Pennsylvania black powder deer hunting with Ken (firearms44) and several others. None of the other guys are carrying handguns....I'm still carrying the 357PD .41 Magnum.

Yesterday one of the guys was hunting about a mile from the cabin and I dropped him off with the agreement to pick him up at 6:50 pm... About 6:40 I get call from him to please come and pick him up about 300 yards west of the pickup area. Seems that at about 5:00 pm a bow hunter crossed the field right in front of him and when he saw my friend came over and apologized for for disturbing his hunt but he was in a stand across the field when he spotted a LARGE black bear that started tearing up a log not far from him... He then hurriedly left the area.

My friend stayed till about 6:15 when he started hearing growling coming closer....he then vacated the area also...and called me when he hit the road....

Funny now everyone one in camp is now planning on carrying from now on....

Bob

I will say that DR probably is spot on. What constitute's normal bear behavior? As to differing scenarios, kicking through the willow's along the creek, I doubt it's going to make much difference what you're carrying. You will more than likely be hard pressed to deploy whatever you're carrying. Myself, I carry spray backed by a heavy caliber revolver when the range might be close.

Really? When we lived in Los Angeles (36 years), we owned a vacation cabin up in the Sierra, but on the western slope, Tulare County. The chupacabras had pretty well been wiped out up there by the werewolves. I once talked with a Calif. Game Warden who told me that most of the werewolves were then over on the eastern slope, putting the sneak on all the chupacabras on that side of the Sierra and would soon "extinct 'em." Guess not.

L.W.

I'll pass this on to you free of charge(course if you patend it
you might send me some $ back)take the Capsend pepper spray and

put the SKUNK SPRAY smell in it! Even the largest of Brown

or black bears will retreet from brother Skunk!

Bob

Leanwolf,

Yeah, you're right! The werewolves were putting a healthy dent in the chupie population until zombies started biting the 'wolves back. Now we got night of the living chupies up there that're immune from head shots with silver bullets. Even worse, I heard tell a mean, wicked story that Rosie O'Donnell has been looking for property up there. Now that's a scary monster that even Godzilla fears. The Rosie thing's got Dracula more scared than Gilroy garlic, so he listed his castle with Prudential.

God, do I miss the Munsters. Herman sure had it goin' on!

Could it be it's gettin' close to All Hollow's Eve??? But the part about Rosie might be true 'cause the 'yotes ain't howlin' up there: they're cryin"!

Leanwolf, you keep going & I'll keep reading.

Just in case our non-Californian friends aren't aware that Gilbert Gilroy had to commence to garlic farmin' because Dracula was house huntin' up there: http://www.garlicworld.com/


Take Care,

R

Raisuli, I'm afraid you've got me there. I don't think I can top that!

BTW, one of my hunting partners here was born and raised in Gilroy. He said today, he can't eat anything that has garlic in it.

L.W.