My son is intrigued by some LE trade in Glock 22s that are offered locally for an attractive price. I have several handguns which he has shot, but he wants his own and this will be his first centerfire handgun. He owns a Ruger .22 auto and really likes it.

Somehow, I seem to remember that Glock had a barrel that does not fully support the case head in the 40 S&W. Is that still the case, or has it been fixed? Is it a real issue anyway?

A 9mm barrel can be dropped into the Glock 22 also. That and a 9mm magazine would convert this gun to 9mm for about $155 or so. If I could only have one centerfire handgun, my prefernce would be the 9mm due to ammo cost, versatility and availability. The Glock 17 would be more expensive, as we don't know of any LE trade ins or any other special deals on one of those.

Should I encourage him to go ahead and buy a Glock 22, or to keep looking for a Glock 17?

I would avoid a 40 Glock like the plague. Can you say KABOOM! Get the 17, or better yet, the 19 for concealed carry. Small enough to hide, big enough to fight with.

I too suggest the 9MM in a Glock platform. Yes, the .40S&W will work fine in most .40 Glocks when using factory loadings or handloads of new never fired brass, but the economy of the 9MM without giving up much in performance makes it a much better option. The G34/17L/17/19/26 are pure performers.

See gunsamerica.com for a listing by a TN FFL which has used Tampa PD G17's for $379.00.

These G22s are $349, and I have a 10% off coupon...

Bearbacker: Beware of Glock 22 40 caliber naysayers.
I have a LOT of first hand experience with Glock 22's!
I have been shooting, carrying professionally, qualifying with and depending on 40 caliber Glocks of various models for more than 20 years now!
All I have ever shot for practice and qualifications are full house (full power) self defense loads!
With nary a glitch or problem of any kind to date!
In fact for many years I stood side by side with up to 20 other professionals shooting 40 caliber Glocks (again with full power factory loadings!) and never saw a problem with any of those hundreds of Glock 22's!
I highly recommend the Glock 22's (especially if they have the night sights and high capacity magazines!).
If these are LE turn in's then recommend to your son that he manuever to be able to look over as many of the Glocks as possible and find one that shows little wear cosmetically - Glocks hold their value rather well if shopped for and bought carefully.
I carried professionally for 10 years a Glock 22 with nights sights and two extra, high capacity magazines - with this outfit I never questioned my ability to quickly and completely defend myself or carry out my duties.
I now carry (plains clothes bodyguarding and robbery suppression details) a Glock Model 23 with night sights and two extra magazines.
If you are using top shelf factory ammo you won't have a problem with a Glock 22 - I am rather certain of that.
Best of luck to your son if he decides to go with the Glock 22.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I did own a Glock M22 for a while; even handloaded for it with no troubles. The .40 will spike pressures if bullets set back in feeding, so you must have a tight bullet fit in the case and firm crimp to avoid it.

It was reliable, but not accurate enough to be interesting. That and watching the notorious video of the "professional" police officer shooting himself kinda turned me cool on Grocks...

I have owned 4 different .40 glocks over the years and have shot the hell out of them. Most reliable brand of handguns I have ever owned, including my Kimbers.

I carry a glock 38 everyday and trust my life on them.

I also have several friends that are police officers that shoot THOUSANDS of rounds a year, all .40 cals and trust them 100%.

Ridiculous statement.

That is one moronic handgun selection. You picked THE most traded handgun in the US, a handgun that would probably kick Bruce Piatt's a$$ on a Rogers Range. A handgun that would be impossible to effect a combat reload because of that idiotic chopped grip.

Go blow smoke up somebody else's a$$. I never said the 40 Glock wasn't effective, never said it wasn't a good gun. If the taxpayers ain't providing you unlimited ammo for it, and you have to reload to be able to afford to shoot enough to stay proficient, it sucks as a handgun choice, and it only offers a marginal, if any at all, improvement over good +P 9mm.

Speaking of ass-kicking, I watched a Glock 22 kick a SWAT cops a$$ for three days on a Roger's Range, before he borrowed a G17. That guy was buffed with probably a double-bodyweight bench press. It ain't for everybody. If you buy one for your wife, you're stupid.

I know you're FOS now. I know LOTS of cops, I know exactly one that USED to shoot a lot, before he had his mid-life kid. He has a Dillon 1050, covered with dust. Most cops rotate shifts and have to work 15-20 hrs extra per week to eat. Shoot? When?

I have a number of glocks including a 23. Have aftermarket barrels in barsto in .357sig for it, a kkm .40 barrel and so on.
I blew it up one time with a squib load, replaced the slide and it is still running. The main issue is the barrel which if you intend on shooting anything other than factory probably should be replaced, specifically if using lead bullets. All the glocks have been reliable, and i have a baby glock i carry right now currently with the .40 barrel, also good in .357sig and 9mm same pistol with a barrel switchout.

I put a Lone Wolf 9mm bbl in my Glock 22 recently. It has ran 100% reliable for a few hundred rounds of my bulk handloads (115gr Rem fmj, 6.0gr Unique, 1300 fps).

Any of the Glock 40 SW pistols make a pretty versatile platform for shooting 40, 357, 9mm with a quick bbl swap, and a mag swap for the 9mm.

I bought a Model 23 several years ago after shooting one my brother owned - his was very accurate - mine is too - it's my vehicle gun. I might have to try one of those Lone Wolf barrel's if they are that good.

The Glock 22 is a great gun.

I've got a 23 and a 27. Have had both for years. I shoot full power handloads through the both of them. No KB as yet. As for the gun wearing me out to shoot it for extended sessions...........BULLFLOP !! Keep your hands outta Momma's dishwater and enjoy the heck out of your new & discounted G22.

My question would be why are they trading them in ? Have they been refurbished from the factory ? Glock has a solid rep of lasting forever and being a very reliable, basic cop's gun. That means they aren't really a shooting enthusiast kind of gun. They aren't as accurate as many other makes and are iffy to handload for, etc.
Before buying one, I'd make sure they were OK in all respects.
BTW, new Glocks are really pretty reasonable. E

Hi bearbacker,

I am delighted that your son wants a center fire handgun. It's always comforting to know that we're able to pass our sport & passion to the next generation.

If you know what you son intends to do with his handgun, it will make selection a lot easier. If he wants a trail gun, a good revolver might be the way to go. If he wants to plug holes in cans, a 9MM might be a better choice as would a .38 SPL. If it's self-defense, it's hard to beat a .40 S&W.

With that written, were I to own just one handgun, it would be a 1911A1. But what fun is it to own just one handgun? And I'd let your son know that his handgun collection has to start somewhere, so if he's good with a G-22 I wish him all the best.


Buena Suerte,

R

bearbacker,

I would not hesitate. I have a G22 and they are great pistols. I would NOT reload for it with the factory barrel.

FWIW, there is damned nice G23 in the classifieds. Three mags and N/S.


Travis

Take a Knee,

Please don't take offense but you are one stupid [bleep].


Travis

I think a lot of departments are like any other government entity, got to spend the money. Plus they get various deals from manufacturers, and changes in administrations. As to cops not having time to shoot, one could look to the 20 year retirement and average annual income for a phoenix p.d. officer, which is pretty darn good. As to being iffy to reload for, i don't think hardly any of mine have EVER seen factory ammo, and i have been shooting more than one of them. A target pistol for making small holes in paper targets? no. But that was never their intent.

Travis,

You claim to be a cop, maybe you are. But you are either burned out or a moron. I'd sure as hell hate to see the way to interact with victims/witnesses let alone suspects. If you're a cop, you are assuredly the only one in your agency who has yet to get a confession, not that you'd know the difference between one and admission.

It's post-Wrotney King hires like you when agencies intentionally recruited dumbed-down candidates that are giving cops a bad name.

Travis, it's long past time for you to find a job more suitable for you, like driving a Wall World golf cart.


R

I'm not a cop doll. Try and calm down. What's a Wall World golf cart?


Travis

deflave,

Thank God you're not a cop. Were you a cop, it would leave a sickening feel in the hearts of law enforcement professionals.

I'm always calm, not that you'd be able to figure it out.

A Wally World golf cart is 3 levels above your current pay grade.


R

The Glock 22 & 23 is one of my favorite handgun and if the Glock 22,23 where unsafe then why do 60 to 70% of all Law Enforcement carry them. The Glock 22 is a first rate handgun and better than 99% of it competition. Buy it and if you want a 9mm then buy a Lone Wolfe 9mm barrel and a couple of Glock 17 magazines and you are good to go.

I know. Thank God the LE community has the likes of you, Take a Knee, and hunter1960 representing. Maybe you can all meet at "Rogers Range" and blow each other.

Why do people drive golf carts in Wal-Mart? I've never witnessed that.


Travis

Oh, you didn't get the memo? They all go "KABOOM"! Some funny schit on here...


Travis

I've been carrying a Glock 22 and 23 for back-up for 14 years. I shoot competitively, firearms instructor for both law enforcement and civilian and never an issue. You get the best of both worlds, good velocity and energy in a high capacity magazine. Like many here I love my 1911's, but for ease of use, consistent trigger and magazine capacity the Glock works. Unlike many officers, I shoot my guns and shoot them a lot. Other then an extended slide lock lever, mine are all stock too. Replace the recoil spring and new mags every couple years and they provide years of service.

As to the question earlier about cop turn ins. Many larger departments furnish the handgun to the officers (Mine do not) So at a predetermined point the guns are turned in for "Capital Replacement" much like the cars are. One car might have 50,000 miles on it, the next could have 120,000 on it. The same with the guns. Dependent on the officer the guns may have a bare minimum of rounds or many thousands, but they have struck a deal with a distributor who takes the guns in and gives them some trade in value towards the new ones. The distributor can then sell the trade-ins at a good price. That is why you can still find Smith and Wesson Model 10's so cheap. NYPD is still clearing out their stockpiles, little by little of all those revolvers. Many of them were carried a lot and shot a little.

I have owned and used glocks for 18 years without a problem! The trade in glocks are a great deal if thats what you are looking for. They usually come with night sights and two magazines. If he wants a 9mm then I would just buy that? The Glock 40's had a few incidents of case support, over pressured rounds by bullet set back ect. This is not unique to Glocks only, several other manufacturers have had this happen and not unique to the 40 caliber round as well. Glocks are used in over 60% of Law Enforcement and guess what caliber is the most common? Hmmm the 40 S&W. If you want to buy the Glock go ahead and buy with confidence. You can meander over to www.glocktalk.com and learn a bunch about glocks. Personally I wouldn't own a glock if I didn't feel they weren't safe. I have yet to see a better firearm for the cost of a glock and the performance of a glock. I have seen more accurate firearms but glock is plenty accurate for its intended purpose.

Deflave, Raisuli is a highly trained law enforcement officer, or at least he used to be. He is an expert on all phases of gang related action. He also claims that all police departments teach their officers to point shoot and not use the sights. Occasionally he says something that makes sense, but more often than not he is simply avoiding roving gangs or bears. He has insulted a man's wife on this forum, and left for awhile, but now he's back.

You have NO idea what you are talking about.

Half of my family are current or retired POs. Probably half of my friends are current POs. The guys that like to shoot and get free ammo, shoot a TON.

I have a buddy that's on the bomb squad and another on a dive team, they both go to the range weekly.

My sister is a PO; I'd guess she shoots 500 rounds a year, her husband is a PO and he shoots a TON.

Not one of them work rotating shifts, after months their schedule may change but most of them have 10yrs on the job and get the schedule they want.

As for overtime, some work a little some work alot. You always try and find time for your passion /hobbies and if it is shooting, you'll find it.

15-20hrs of OT just to eat..... not in the states I have friends in. If you and your wife both work, you're doing ok.

I am confused? You're Glocks don't blow up AND you're a LEO that finds time to shoot?

Where is Take a Knee when you need him?


Travis

You could have stopped there...


Travis

Thanks sir.

I thought I caught a big whiff of dumbphuck as well.

To the OP, I apologize for de-railing your thread, but I can't stand BS information.

Below is my G22. It is in fact a LE trade in. It is a great girlfriend and I recommend one for your son. They are a heck of a value.




Travis

They're known as seminar posters. They are spoon-fed agendas and told to march on out to Websites and surreptitiously subvert wholesome ideals. They visit conservative Websites in effort to make conservatives look extreme. Gun Websites have more than their share of seminar posters.

While I won't name names, one such poster here who arouses suspicion goes by the initials of deflave. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see his face on the news marching with other loons on Wall Street while passing chronic. I'd bet he has Obama & Che posters hanging on the walls of his bedroom under a black light.

Just an objective observation...


R

Busted.




Travis

While I have never personally owned a Glock, I have shot quite a few of them. My brother was issued a M22 and had a M27 as backup when he was in law enforcement, and a friend has a M23. They all shot good and never malfunctioned that I was aware of. I just don't care for the grip angle. That being said they're tough guns and you should have no trouble with a police trade-in.

Sounds like a great deal, that way, you'd have spent about a C-note more than a new G17 costs, and you'd still have a used gun, not that there is anything wrong with a used Glock. As I've already stated several times, there is nothing wrong with a 40 Glock, as long as you don't shoot reloads through it.

Watch it Travis, I open up a can of parallax on your A$$, you won't know which way is up, or downrange.

That actually made me laugh out loud. But I still think you talk out your ass.


Travis

50 rd qual times two = THOUSANDS! Publik Skool Fuzzy Math huh? How much 40 S&W ammo did you reload and fire last year. Please elaborate on your loading process.

Well DUUUHHHH! No Schit Sherlock. If you don't still reside in your mom's basement and don't make 100K/yr, if you don't reload, you'll never be able to shoot for schit.

You lying [bleep], you had me believing you had learned all those truck gun tips on your own, but no you learned it in a seminar.

Glocks are about as close to perfection in a personal defense handgun as you can purchase regardless of which Glock Model you decide to carry.

I took a lot of notes at those seminars!


Travis

I have a close friend who is a Glock fiend, and he says if these Glock 22s are factory refurbed, they're good to go. Just find a pretty one and he's set.

I have quite a few handguns in lots of calibers, and the .40 is one of my favorites. My personal preference happens to be SIG.

I talked about a revolver with my son, and he really wants an auto. He's shot my guns, of course, and pretty much knows what he's doing around a gun. He realizes the 9mm may be the most versatile, and cheaper to shoot than a .40, but these guns are pretty inexpensive. He can get a Glock for the price of a used Taurus or Rossi. He also can make this a helluva 9mm with just a barrel and a magazine, and then he can shoot both calibers.

I'm having a hard time telling him not to do it. Thanks to everyone for their insight, and he's liable to be a proud owner this weekend, I think.

Good for him. He'll love it I'm sure.


Travis

OK, bearbacker. That was my only concern. Like I said, as a straight forward personal protection gun, they are completely satisfactory. Just keep in mind their ammo considerations. E

LOL, come for the glock talk, stay for the douche-baggery.

'Ol Take a Knee must be on his last leg, because I'm starting to think he's crazy. Somebody take his computer away from him, he's going to hurt himself.

Buy the glock 22 and don't look back. But be careful...they've been known to multiply.

How many 40 S&W "fans" in this thread reload and shoot five or more thousand rounds each year through their Glocks? If so, detail your loading procedure.

Take a knee, can I ask what this has to do with the question that was asked? I reload thousands of rounds a year, but if you want lessons in reloading, then post your own question rather then hijacking someones thread about whether they should buy a Glock or not.

You seem to be trying to fight a battle that didn't need to be fought on this thread.

well I would imagine i reload that much per year, but it isn't shot exclusively through glocks.
On the other hand i would say i have shot more than that through glocks at various times.
And there isn't any particular magic, excepting with the .40 i make darn sure they fit the chamber and i got enough crimp i am not going to get setback.
I have owned that 23 to just about the first year they started marketing it as the .40 was new then, and it sure hasn't seen more than a box or two of factory ammo, none of my stuff does
i might add i probably do check the brass a little more carefully

I don't have a clue how many rounds have been fired in my Glock 22 but its several thousand (ultramax remanufactured and american eagle) in 12 years since I was issued it new in the academy, it has never failed except for a single misfire that was an ammo problem.

That said if I had a choice I prefer the 17 as I feel the 9mm is as good as the 40 and cheaper to shoot when I'm buying.

Get the gun and never look back...

I would hate to guess how many tens of thousands of rounds I have seen shot through glocks (most were glock 22's). I can't count the times that I have been to training with 12 to 20 officers and all shoot 1k times apiece during the week.

I have never seen a kaboom but most of the ammo I have shot and seen shot was new ammo and not reloads.

Don't be afraid of the trade ins. Just last week I had to box up our Gen 3 guns and traded them in on Gen 4 guns. Glock traded for $50 a pistol. We could not put new night sights on our gen 3 guns for that.

Dink

Are you stomping your feet yet? 5,000? Is that a lot to you?


Travis

You need to ask yourself why the gun was traded in? LE guns are typically traded in for one of two reasons:

1 - They are beyond the manufactuers recommended service life
2 - There were problems with the guns, and the manufacturer swapped for new ones.

Just some food for thought.

Wrong.

Many times a big chunk of cash was schat down, and it needs to be spent before the end of the fiscal year.


Travis

Kevin,
In talking to a few friends in the industry, I think that S&W (with their M&P) is really going after the Glock LE market and forcing Glock to extend some pretty attractive incentives to upgrade and stay with Glock. That may be altering the typical departmental purchasing parameters some.

I agree 100%
And I had my G20 blow in my hand

My fault.
Too many ( heavy ) reloads through a stock barrel.

If you shoot factory ammo , you will never have an issue

If your worried at all,( or want to load full power re-loads) buy a replacement, supported barrel.

The police trades around here are a great buy!
If I already didn't have the G 20 I would snag another one up.

Not wrong, but that doesn't mean you're not right also. There are a myriad of reasons why a LE Agency will dump a pistol, no doubt about that. I'm just pointing out the two most common reasons.

But even if it's a matter of cash lying around at the end of the year, they're not going to spend it on guns unless their guns are due, or nearly due for replacement. There's a LOT of other equipment LE agencies need.

Okay, back that one up...How do you figure?

Have you ever considered that what is perfection for YOU may be completely wrong for someone else?

What makes you think Glock is the perfect gun for EVERYONE?

here we go again...
wait till I pick my feet up..

okay
Let fly!

No, not stomping my feet yet, because it is just as I expected. No one has posted yet that they do in fact reload and shoot 5K worth of 40S&W. One "imagines", but he ain't sure. Well, if you buy bullets by the thousand, and don't have any a year later, it's easy to know. I appreciate y'alls honesty. There may be someone out there who has, but he's already had a KABOOM, so he ain't sayin'.

I agree, I don't think it's perfect. The unmodified grip sucks to me. The trigger is not good, but can be easily improved. The sights suck and blow. Today, I'd buy an M&P before a Glock. Whether or not they'll hold up like a Glock remains to be seen, but a friend has over 35K of 9mm (most of it the hot mil stuff) through one with zero parts failures. It pains me that S&W didn't produce a gun the same size as a G19, if they did, I leave now to go buy one.

when one reloads for among others: .32acp, .380, 9mm, .38. .357, .40, 10mm, .41 .44, .45 .460rowland, makarov, .45colt, 30.30, 30.06, 300winmag, .338win mag, 375H&H, .270 7x57, 6.5x55, .243 .308, a couple of german calibers and so on, I haven't felt the need to put the round count into a counter to satisfy some internet based ignatz. I am sure I left out a few calibers.
Dillon reloading presses can be addictive.
Lets make it simple for those that need it:
Yes, I have fired more than 5k rounds of .40s&w mostly through the same pistol, mostly because i have more than one.
No, .40 isn't really my favorite caliber, because I have questions about it's need between a 9mm and a .45acp.
No, Glock is NOT my favorite handgun, I like to say it is a weapon I love to hate but find compelling to use.
And a Glock 22 even with it's warts, which it does have, is a pretty good handgun particularly if you switch out to after market barrels in various calibers, and toss the factory barrel.
The factory barrel will work just fine for factory ammo, which it was designed for. To a reloader, which you generally are if you are shooting in bulk, an aftermarket tighter barrel makes sense.
As to the round count, A close friend who has a desk about ten feet from me in my office, has SHOT as much as 50k a year in competition. Want to talk to Him? We were talking about it the other day and he was estimating he has reloaded well over 1million rounds. I'm not that bad, but getting there.
The glock 22 has in my opinion been superceded by other similar pistols with perhaps more atvantages, the S&W and springfield being among them. But those refurbished police tradein's remain a good value.
I might add one other comment before i am done with this. Talking to a special forces guy back from the stan's about pistols. He started with a service beretta, went to a Hi Power, and finished up with a glock 17. 17 because of military 9mm availability. Why the glock? Because it worked EVERY time even in the mud and dirt and was 100% reliable to go bang in filthy conditions. Kind of reminds me of a A.K.47.
Just got back from the throne room and was reading a J&G flier. Glock 22 police tradein second generation with one 13 round LE mag for $349.00 For that you can easily add a couple of different barrels.
And I am looking at the little baby glock on my desk, a model 33. While originally .357 sig, i have a kkm barrel in it right now in .40, loaded with, horrors, .40 with a 155grain silvertip running about 1200fps. It also has 9mm, and .357sig KKM barrels, and if i want to i can use hi caps in it, and even the 27round stock mags. As to the reloading thing, i forgot to mention a few others I load for, .223, 22.250, .30carbine, .303british. So no, i don't keep a round count. I might add almost ALL the pistol stuff is run with lead, and a fair amount of the rifle. I think i now have past 25 lead moulds.
I think people can buy what they want, but it is a mistake to knock buying a guy in world wide usage with the millions sold that can be bought used for the above price in a refurbished state.

No bias against the Glock, never owned one, just can't get used to how they feel in my hand. To me it's like holding a brick.

I have reloaded 5000 rounds of 40 in the last year but alas not shot them in a Glock, but I would without reservation.

OH I CAN�T AGREE MORE on S&W making a compact (vs. a sub-compact) version of the M&P; Glock 19 sized. To me, that was just dumb. The Glocks 19/23 are very big sellers and very popular amongst CC carriers; I�ve always had a desire for a Glock 19 but just have never gotten around to getting one. Sig has their 229 which is a truly excellent pistol, and again, very popular with those who carry concealed. I think S&W just plain missed the boat.

I have owned an M&P 9mm myself and I let it go; kinda regret that. The ergonomics of the M&P are excellent, truly excellent. If you ask me, they have considerably improved on the Glock design. But only time will tell if the M&P will hold up like a Glock, but all indications are that the M&P is doing very well. I have a strong preference for the M&P with the thumb safety, I�m just old school that way; I like a manual safety for a number of reasons. My M&P didn�t have the manual safety, but if I get another one I�ll make sure it has the manual safety.

As for your observations on Glock kB!'s; my views differ somewhat. The Glock design trades case support safety for increased feed reliability. That trade off has earned Glock a great reputation for reliability, but it has come at a cost for non 9mm pistols. I don�t recommend reloads in ANY Glock, but the 9mm case (not the gun) is more forgiving of weak cases than other cartridges (with the .40 being perhaps the least forgiving). These days I don�t do much handloading because my kids keep me running so much that I just don�t have the time, so a Glock really wouldn�t hinder me in any way. Still, I like to have the option of using reloads, and I�m also a bullet caster, so just one more reason for me (personally) to shun the Glock. The M&P offers more case support, better ergonomics, better trigger, better sights, a better magazine design. Same could be said for the XD. But the Glock has been around and is proven, whereas the M&P and to a much lesser degree, the XD hasn�t (XD also has an excellent reputation). Still, I consider the Glock an excellent choice if you need to keep costs down, but require a very tough, sure fire pistol that will be fed factory new ammo only.

boy, you got that right, you forgot to add a drink and popcorn

Kevin, you said it pretty good. Except me being cheap I have had zero problems other than one time due to my own stupidity in running reloads through a glock, including, gasp, cast bullets. Aftermarket barrels tho, but in the early days i was doing in with the factory.
If i was to trip accross one of those little springfield subcompacts at a giveaway price, i wouldn't have any trouble springing for one. But the fact remains to me $349 buys you a lot of gun in that model 22 glock with the ability to make it even more gun.

I think anyone messing with casting understands there is a huge difference in lead alloys, velocity, the type of firearm being used, hardness, and many many other factors that are there that you don't run into with factory ammo. Messing with this stuff in something like a glock without that critical awareness is most likely a mistake.
But almost all my shooting is done with reloads and lead bullets if i can make them for the caliber.
I have a friend that has loaded thousands of .224 with cast lead bullets for prairie dogs, and they work fine. It can be done.

You�d better do your homework. Take_A_Knee is coming off as a jerk, and while I don�t think he�s technically correct, the net effect is the same.

I would recommend that you read my piece entitled The �truth� about the Glock: http://shootersjournal.net/the-truth-about-the-glock/

As a design feature, Glock�s pistols have less support of the base of the cartridge than most other pistols. There is no difference in the GUN between the 9mm & .40 where this is concerned (as Take_A_Knee implies � although I�m not sure such an implication was his true intent), but rather the ammunition case. The 9mm has a very strong case in comparison to the .40; but both operate at the same level of pressure. True, the have been more catastrophic failures of the .40 Glock than all others, but the issue has happened with ALL caliber Glocks. You need to understand, this is not a design flaw of Glock; but it is something you need to be aware of.

Glocks are designed to use factory new ammo ONLY. And while most gun manuals will tell you to use only factory new ammo, with a Glock THEY REALLY MEAN IT! The feed ramp of the Glock enhances reliability in bad conditions and relies more on the integrity of the cartridge case than most other models of guns. Because of this, you need your brass to be 100%.

Every time a cartridge case is fired, that brass is worked. It expands, then contracts some. Then when you reload it, you press the brass back to shape (mostly). But you need to understand that with 99.9% of all factory dies, the case is not TRULY full length sized. And every time you fire a round, that case is weakened ever so slightly. That weakness is at a place where the Glock chamber has much less support. Chances are, everything will be fine, but you need to consider one thing. There are always anomalies that will cause one round in a batch to have significantly higher pressure than all the others. A primer that�s a touch more potent than others. Changing environmental conditions. A slightly setback bullet. An extremely hot barrel. A slightly flawed case. The variables are legion, but they DO exist. When you encounter a cartridge that for some reason generates a bit more pressure, you don�t have that extra safety margin with a Glock. The result is a gun going kaBoom!

Be smart, do your homework before you begin to use reloads in your Glock. Just don�t do it, it�s not worth it. The Glock is a great pistol and will serve you well, but trust me; Gaston Glock knows his product and he�s NOT KIDDING about using only factory new ammunition. You need to take this seriously regardless of how animated Take_A_Knee�s responses are.

I do not agree with you on that. FWIW.


Travis

I don't reload for my Glock. And if you re-read your posts, you'll see that you did not specify Glocks go "Kaboom" with reloads. You simply implied they blow up.


Travis

Nice to see someone who can disagree like a gentleman; that's becoming rare around here.

Go [bleep] yourself.

Kidding of course....


Travis

Most of what kevin says is true, if not all, but there are always exceptions. Which is the reason i have KKM barrels in the glocks. You can take a factory round put it in a factory glock barrel and watch it roll around compared to a high quality after market barrel. .40 is subject to setback, and for sure does not accept well room for error in reloading. Brass is also an issue, as to where it came from, who made it, etc. I have shot almost exclusively reloads threw my .40 glocks, but i am pretty careful of the reloading process and wouldn't recommend it for a beginning reloader not aware of the issues. And i have also the idea that the great majority of the time it is just easier to run 9mm or .45acp where the problems diminish, or potential problems. And it is also rare that i run full power reloads through any of them without using new componets. During the last year i have put together a number of reloads using 50 year old powder/bullets/etc that worked quite well with as little as 20fps variance in rifle loads. But a lot of that is above the skill level of the average reloader. From another thread, now i got to look at the marlin guide gun .45/70 from the kaboom picture posted and wonder how it applies to me as i load above factory velocity rounds for that gun.

by the way, i had read kevin's article before and it is a good one, just reread it again. But one can overcome design issues with a lot of firearms.

Travis, you are correct, I did not state in my initial post that reloads were the cause of the Kaboom issue in Glock 40's. I apologize for that. I assumed that was common knowledge but apparently it isn't. I did state several times that ya gotta reload to be able to shoot worth a damn, unless you make some serious coin. I stand by that statement.

Kevin quite clearly elucidated the issue with reloads and Glocks. I concur completely with the 40, I don't agree that reloads are necessarily bad with the 9mm. I know too many who've done for for too long to agree.

Maybe this is the answer to reloading the 40 S&W for a Glock:

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/358543/redding-g-rx-base-sizing-die-kit-40-s-and-w

I'm on a conference call, and that just made me laugh out loud and everyone is wondering why I'm laughing, because the subject at hand isn't funny...thanks.

that system has been around for a while to get rid of the "smiley" or bulge on the brass.
one of the interesting things about picking up range brass is seeing the varience in the spent casings as fired through different pistols. You can pretty much tell when it went through a glock

Excellent observation. No gun is perfect, so it's good to educate yourself on the weak points of the pistol of your choice and learn to deal with or mitigate the weaknesses.

[quote=RoninPhx...You can pretty much tell when it went through a glock [/quote]Which ought to tell you that brass is getting worked pretty hard.

I have seen a 19 blow from reloads.

I would agree with your statement, I do make some serious coin.


Travis

My bad...


Travis

I have reloaded for the glock but in this case it was a 10mm. I had no issues. One thing I won't do is shoot lead bullets in my Glocks. They use a polygonal rifling which can lead to excessive leading in the barrel and cause a dangerous situation. I would have no problem reloading a glock 40 S&W but would advise against using max loads to be on the safe side. I personally use Longshot powder, or Unique powder for reloading Glocks. Esox357.

A friend has shot way over 50K of Valiant 125gr cast pushed by, IIRC 4.3gr of WW 231 though the same Glock 17. He de-leads the bore by shooting a mag or two of jacketed through it. I'm not saying this is a great idea, I'm just sayin'.

I have bought a couple of revolvers lately that looked like a lead lined pipe inside.
Uses a bronze brush with parts of a brasso pad stuck in the brush. Doesn't hurt the barrel and you get a nice little pile of lead chips.
One of my projects lately was using a .432 sized bullet, 240 grain in both a marlin 44 lever, and a model 29. Leaded the snot out of the 29. The lead bullets were also 23 on the hardness scale. They ain't going back in the 29, had to remove a lot of lead as above described.

Lew's Lead Remover (brass patch) is the old tried and true. I've found that H2O2/white vinegar mixed 50/50 in a plugged barrel dissolves it nicely.

So we went up to the emporium that advertised the LE Glock 22 trade ins for such a low price, and guess what...they blew out all 60 in a day and a half. They did, however, have a like-new Glock 17 in the pre-owned case. From the looks of the barrel and the breech face, it hasn't even been broken in yet. It was fairly priced, and we had a 10% off coupon. It also had a set of custom competition sights, probably a $60 value.

He's happy with it, so I think he's set for a little while. If he decides he wants night sights or even the stock factory sights, that can be done later.

Thanks to everybody for the lively conversation, and for the benefit of your experience.

I'm down to about 1K rds of the 2,500 rds I kept of the 3,500 rds I loaded all with Montana Gold 155gr bullets and titegroup powder and I can tell you the Gen 2 police trade in gun never hiccuped a lick!

I just sold it to a coworker because i got a good deal on a Gen 3 trade in gun because the locals are going to Gen 4's.

I'm a converted Glock hater and put another hundred rds through my Gen 3 .40 and Gen 3 Model 30 .45 yesterday! For dead nuts reliabilty, standardization among different models in different calibers you can't beat them!

I too have a threaded Lone wolf barrel in 9mm for the Mod 22 and it works like a champ.

Mike

also have a Model 23 as a truck gun


Mike

Kevin I did read the article some time back. I do not deny that Glocks have blown up but I can find you a bunch of pictures of many different guns that handloaders have blown up.

I do not actually own a Glock. I have Xd's and 1911's in 40 so my experience is not first hand, but shoot with a lot of guys who reload for the Glock. I just finished a batch of 40's on the progressive (around 500-600 I think, maybe more) and ran each thru a chamber checker for Glocked brass and had about 10 that would not pass. I thought that was pretty good performance for my dies. I will shoot those thru one of my 1911's as it is on the sloppier side for the chamber. Of course I am shooting a lead bullet with a reduced load for PF 165. I really have never been one of those max velocity loaders anyway.

Thanks for the words of caution. I have a G34 in my future for the wife and kids to compete with one of these days, but it too will shoot lead and not so fast...

Let's go to the board.

You have pards that reload for the Glock, yet you know of "Glocked brass". Ten reloads were so bad they wouldn't chamber.

In your opinion, this is all A-okay?

Well I had 10 loads that did not fit in the chamber gauge, I called them Glocked brass because of talk of the unsupported chamber. I do not shoot a Glock, so perhaps they are some random Glock brass that I picked up on the range (very likely as I am a brass slut).

In your opinion, what should I think?

Glocked brass is also know as brass with the Glock smile - a half moon shaped bulge near the case head corresponding to the unsupported section over the feed ramp. Picked .40 S&W and .45 ACP brass gets double checked for the Glock smile and tossed if it has one. Even with a full length re-size the brass has been weakened and increases the chance of a case failure. The worst-case scenario is a reloaded round chambering in the same orientation with the weak spot over the unsupported area again.

Any suspect reload is better fired in a handgun with a tight chamber, not the loose one you mention. A suspect round needs more support, not less. If in doubt pull the bullet, dump the powder, WD-40 or pop the primer, and toss the brass. It ain't worth it.

Speaking of picking brass, a Glock smile is so prevalent on .40 S&W around here that I only buy new brass nowadays, and I'm careful about picking up only my own. If I were determined to reload for a Glock .40 S&W, .45 ACP, or 10mm I would pick up a Lone Wolf (or better) barrel and eliminate any concern.

I just dragged the box out and there are 6 out of 600. The pistol that I would shoot them in does not have a sloppy loose chamber just not as tight as my match chamber. No smiles visible they seem to be uniform in there fat little bases.

There's a scrounger aspect to reloading where we go for cheap and I'm right there with ya. I try to buy or trade in bulk from my local sources and then we brag to each other later over who was screwed the worst.

The crap I see out there for .40 S&W range brass is one of the exceptions. I buy new.

You buy new 40 brass? Do you mean you just buy factory ammo or you buy the brass to reload? How many times do you reload it for a Glock?

Yep, I buy new .40 S&W brass - generally Starline. I have loaded for a Glock 23 in the distant past, soon switched to a Storm Lake barrel, and then sold off the G23.

I generally get 4-6 loadings before I lose them.

Sorry Im late to the party but I have a G35 with over 40,000 rounds thorugh it, probably 99% are once fired, Winchester Ranger t brass. Cannot say I put 5000 through it this year but average is probably about 6-7000.

Standard load is 155 montana gold over 6.0gr titegroup. Give me about 1200fps. The only problem I have ever had is my Dads loads for his .40 STI were slightly to long to run in the Glock magazines, he shortened his so we now run the same load to prevent any problems. The problems were not pressure related at all, they would start to hang up on the magazine and give a failure to feed. I even run a limited amount of the 200LBT double tap ammo as a wilderness load but scrub the heck out of the barrel and would not run a bunch of that through the gun from a leading standpoint.

I do like most of the glock family (despise the smallest ones though) but think the MP is a better overall gun. I could easily switch out to the MP but being in California I stick with the Glock because those are the last high cap magazines I can access. With all of the ammunition components getting more expensive everyday my Advantage Arms conversion kit gets more use than ever. If AA comes out with a MP kit I would probably go with the .45 MP to make the most of my 10 rounds and live happily ever after.

S&W is coming out with a 9mm sized(medium grip insert only) 22 pistol. It was at SHOT in FEB and should be out soon. That would be a different grip than the 45 but close. I think the M&P is the new "Glock", or the gun everyone will be chasing. If the Army ever has a new pistol trial, it'll be the gun to beat. They've already designed a gun for whatever hurdle they could place before them, IE, ext safety or not, 9mm or 45.

I got a used Glock 22 12 years ago, and it was so old that the Tritium night sites were dim.
It came with a chamber that was cut with a feed ramp .235" deep, with case webs only .180" thick, but the chamber was cut large in diameter.

The rear of a 40sw chamber is registered with SAAMI at .4284" +.004" and .4274" + .004" when .200" deep into the chamber.

My chamber is .440" at ~ .2" into the chamber.

Most chambers are cut at the small end of the sloppy SAAMI spec, my Glock was cut too big to make spec.

Cases were bulging when I put 25% more powder than Alliant's Power Pistol 135 gr max load.

I welded up the feed ramp, and now I can shoot and extra 146% more powder than the IMR 800X 200 gr max load. That 246% powder charge is the same as the IMR max load for 44 mag, in a much smaller volume.
But the orifice is still .440" wide.

What does it all mean?
1) The 40 S&W handloaded is more powerful than handlooading the weak case head 10mm cartridge.
2) The Glock 22 is an excellent design, that benefits from getting an aftermarket barrel with better case support.

How the hell could anyone be suprised?

And you take .40S&W loads to an "extra 146% more powder?"

Jeez, I hope folks don't load following what you post.

146% more powder , what else can you say?

Oh damn, I handloaded for a G22, with AA#5 powder, too.

No cast bullets, though, and I am pretty religious about tight bullet fit in the case. 4-5 inches at 25 yards were the norm for my gun, and that wasn't good enough to suit me. IIRC I probably shot 7-800 rounds with no troubles.

Uh... KaBoom maybe?

Clark, am I correct in understanding that you are saying that .40 S&W cases are stronger than 10MM factory cases and hence can be loaded to deliver more velocity?
Also, do you consider the Glock 23 (with suitable barrel) to be capable of similar performance?

Thanks

Yes, the longer over all length of the 10mm is not as important as the weaker case head of the 10mm in determining which cartridge, the 10mm or the 40 S&W, can generate more power.

The 10mm case head has a large Boxer primer pocket and deep extractor groove, making it the only case head weaker than the the 7.62x39mm large Boxer primer pocket and the 25acp small boxer primer pocket.

But that is academic, as the 40 S&W max recoil is horrific.
Even with extreme recoil spring assemblies that slide hits the frame very hard with typical slide mass.

Maybe a 62 ounce Desert Eagle with 50 pound triple recoil spring assembly could make use of all the power a 40 S&W cartridge can produce, without painful slide slam.

When you guys read Clark's load data you act like you opened the wrong bedroom door and saw something special.

40 S&W more potent than 10mm. Who'd of thunk it. Thanks for sharing your knowledge sir.

???
what have YOU been smokin'?

Clark has stated basically, that:
Given strong guns, e.g. Glocks with barrels providing good head support,the 40S&W case is stronger than the 10mm case to the extent that it is possible to generate more power from a 40S&W case than is possible with a 10mm. I believe Clark knows whereof he speaks.

If you think clark knows of what he speaks, video it, put it on youtube and post a link. That is if you are silly enough.

Not something I'd try personally.

I have an stout aftermarket 10 mm barrel...
I challenge That idiotic statement!

How can a shorter case ( of the same dimensions ) be stronger?
Think about it a bit...

The 10mm case head has a large Boxer primer pocket and deep extractor groove, making it the only case head weaker than the the 7.62x39mm large Boxer primer pocket and the 25acp small boxer primer pocket.

I have experimentally taken most major case heads to failure. I cannot, but there is another engineer on the internet, Scott Sweet, that does Von Misses calculations on case head designs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Mises_yield_criterion

The correlation between his calculations and Quickload pressure estimates [of the loads I found to be at the threshold of case head failure] is very good.

clark is correct, the same reason the 45 gap is stronger than the 45 acp. my experience comes from shooting major with the 40 in 1911 however and this post is about glocks. I used the 10's in IPSC when it first came out, and like others the 10 never really delivered on its promises. Using 10 mags however allows seating out and with supported barrels the guns would handle major loads better. However more glocks have been kaboomed (as they call it on this web site) trying to make major in 40's than one could count. stuff legends are made of. -- and for the wrong reasons. Has more to do with large dimensional variations in glock barrels than anything.

http://www.glockfaq.com/content.aspx?ckey=Glock_FAQ_Reloading

This person has shot 159,000 reloads through his .40 Glocks. I tend to believe him more than others here who have never tried it but repeat over and over not to shoot reloads through a Glock.

The guy has taken a lot of precautions to ensure he limits his exposure to risk; a lot of reloaders don't go to the same levels as he does. Second, his method for estimating pressure by measuring case head expansion has been proven time and time again to be completely unreliable. That, as well as a few other things the guy writes makes me say; reader beware.

length of the case has nothing to do with its strength. Personally have shoot over 100k rds thru various glocks since there introduction,most on the hot side and all reloads. If you have a doubt as to the reloads, please go to brianenos.com web and ask or research this issue from people who do it on a regular basis, but be prepared for their answer "where you been?"

If there is anyone who thinks that the 10mm can be handloaded to as high a power level as the 40 S&W can be loaded, they could repeat my experiment:

Get a 40 S&W and a 10mm with case support to the case web.
The feed ramp can intrude no more than 0.180" into the chamber, as that is the thickness of both the case webs.

Work up to these overloads. Don't hold the gun. The recoil might injure the hand. Use a trigger string. Glock triggers need a rubber band wrapped around them for this. I can hold the Glocks in my hand for this test, as I am related to the 4 time world's strongest man. My hand still hurts for hours afterwards.
a) 10mm 200 gr 14.2 gr 800X, 1.3", the primer will fall out as the case fails.
b) 40 S&W 200 gr 15.5 gr 800X, 1.171", the case survives and can be used again.

The internet is full of posters saying, "Don't load a 40sw hot, buy a 10mm".
And 69 million people vote for Obama, too.
Those conditionally ignorant 10mm owners would be right, if they used WinClean 10mm brass with a small Boxer primer pocket. It is not easy to find.

Because the recoil is intolerable, this type of experiment is only valuable to understand some of the "kaboom talk" surrounding 40 sw and Glocks. Case support is the key to understanding many gun failures, and the usual suspects that Ackley describes; obstructed bore, wrong powder, too much powder, out of battery, modified and weakened chamber, etc.

The case heads strength [loose primer pockets] becomes much more important in strong rifles, where the recoil can be tolerated.
The SAAMI registered max average pressure may vary for different cartridges, but if they have the same case head, they are good to the same pressure for the individual handloader.

There are 4 common case heads of interest as examples:
1) 1889 7.65x53mm Mauser case head built with large Boxer primer.
Long brass life at 68kpsi in Quickload; In 22-250, 243, 6mm Rem, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 25-06, 260 Rem, 6.5x55 [US made brass], 270, 7mm-08, 7x57mm, 280, 300Sav, 308, 7.62x51mm, 30-06, 8x57mm, 338F, 358, and 35W.
2) 1950 designed .222 case head with small rifle primer built with a small Boxer primer pocket will have this problem somewhere above 80kpsi in Quickload; 17 Rem, 204 Ruger, 221 Rem Fireball, .222 Rem, .223 Rem, 5.56x45mm, .222 Rem mag, 6x45mm.
3) 1925 Holland and Holland 300 H&H Magnum built with large Boxer primer will have long brass life at 72kpsi in Quickload; 6.5mm RemMag, 7mm RemMag, 8mmRemMag, 264 WinMag, 300 H&H Mag, 300 WinMag, 338 WinMag, 350 RemMag, 375 H&H Mag, 458 WinMag
4) 1889 Mauser 7.65x53mm case head design, when built with a small Boxer primer pocket will have long brass life up to primer piercing; 22BR, 6mmBR, 6x47mm, 6.5x47mm, 7mmBR, 30BR, Lapua small primer 308.

What does it all mean?
There are some weak case head designs; 30 carbine, 25acp, 7.62x39mm, but the 10mm is the worst.

I take a different meaning - all are perfectly acceptable for their respective SAAMI pressure limits. I also don't fault a flower pot for being unable to make toast.

True, but it is nonetheless interesting that the 40 S&W can be pushed to higher power levels than 10mm.

So do these pistols with modified chambers and feed ramps, still function reliably as semi-automatic firearms?

Hell, try these Clarkm specials on for size:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5153144

With Glocks and decent quality aftermarket barrels, all the examples I've seen have functioned better. In varying degrees, tighter lock-up, much less leading, less of a tendency to fire out of battery, and more accurate. It really is a no-brainer, IMO.

I welded that Glock 22 feed ramp up and cut the ramp to .180" intrusion, and it has fed everything, all kinds of hollow points.

Why Glock cut the ramp so deep and exceeded the max SAAMI chamber mouth diameter is beyond me. Maybe to feed ammo that fell in the mud.

WHAT NIGHT SIGHTS DO YOU USE? I USE A MODEL 22 FOR PRAC PISTOL COMP!