Hello from a new poster,

I've been thinking I need a new hand gun (doesn't everyone?). Still haven't decided on a 1911, Beretta or Glock.

What I really want to know is why the 45 ACP? I mean on paper by ballistics it doesn't look so hot, and yet there is such a loyal fan base.

I want it for self defense CCW and even a woods gun, for possible Mtn lion and Black Bear.

What do you think? And why the 45 ACP?

Chris

Big slow moving hole punching caliber with lots of real world experience. Pretty good choice for a man stopper and or prolly mt. lion, for bear I'm thinking a 10 mm might be a better choice in an auto. But even against a bear 7-13 rounds of .45 placed by a cool hand is way above a pocket full of rocks.

Go to a spiritualist and/or medium. Get him/her to put you in contact with the spirits of several thousand dead Germans, more Germans, Japanese, North Koreans, Chinese, Viet Cong, NVA regulars and by now I guess a few Afghans and Iraqis, plus several more thousand various and sundry others in isolated places all over the globe in the last 94 years.

Ask them about the .45 ACP in standard FMJ roundnose form, then extrapolate that to a hollow point.

A bit morbid reply, perhaps, but hopefully makes the point.

I don't think that 45 acp is very good for Black bear. Though I am sure that there is someone who will disagree. I think that you should use 44mag if there is the possiblity of encountering black bear.

Conrad

Why the 45acp?

Well, the velocity is not the part of the equasion that makes this a great round. The bullet weight and diameter of the projectile play into the 45acp's stopping power. The bullet weight has alot to do with energy transferred that results in stopping power. V ery few experts will doubt the stopping power of the 45acp.

The 45acp is also launched from a great platform - the 1911 pistol. This pistol is simple, reliable and accurate and can be modified in many different ways to suit your shooting needs. The Glock and Berettas are limited in how one can "tune" them or change thier shootability.

The trigger on the M1911 is better than on any d/a Beretta or Glock and is infinitely adjustable as well, adding to the 1911/45acp's popularity.

Out of a full-sized pistol, the 45acp is a pleasant shooter. The recoil is more of a push, than the snappiness of some of the 9mms and 40s. A full size 1911 is much more pleasurable to shoot than most 9mm or 40SW compacts.

Then, theres the history of service the 45acp round has going for it. The US Army used it for two world wars, Korea, Vietnam and even after the 1911 was replaced oficially by the Beretta, several 1911s found their ways to Desert Storm, Bosina, Afghanistan and currently in Iraq. The 45acp/1911 has been carried by several famous lawmen and professional law enforcement agencies like the Texas Rangers. LAPD SWAT team members carry the 45/1911 as do several Special Forces members in units like Delta Force, Rangers and the FBI Hostage Rescue Team in Quantico, even though more modern pistols like Berettas, Sigs and Glocks are available.

The pistol and caliber simply work...and they work well. I own two 1911s in 45acp, have shot them for ten-plus years and would trust either to the ends of the earth.

If that short bit of history does not sell you on the 45acp round, I don't know what will.

-Brickboy240

Chris,

You're looking for two guns, not one. The 45 ACP is without question one of, if not the, premier defensive handgun rounds. For CCW/personal/home defense, a 45 ACP is always an excellent choice.

For hunting, you need to look elsewhere. Not only are autos generally less accurate at field/hunting ranges than revolvers, you just need more punch for Mtn. Lion, Bear, and even deer past 35-50 yards. Look, as Conrad suggested, at the .44 Mag, the .41 Mag, or a .454 Casull/.45 Colt. If it bites back, you don't want it to, and these will put a serious crimp in the chomping plans of any toothy-nasty in the lower-48.

The next questions are, how much experience do you have with handguns? And, please define the intended defensive and field uses of your guns (yes, plural)? Is the defensive pistol to be primarily a house gun, or a CCW? Is the field gun to be a hunter, or a pack/hiking/back-up?

Aside from caliber, I think it's important to choose a pistol that you'll actually carry. A pistol that's too bulky or heavy will soon be left at home or in the truck, where it does you little good.

Choose a pistol in a caliber that you can shoot well. Stuff it full of good quality ammo utilizing one of today's controlled expansion hollowpoints, and go about your business.

Chris57k.

Welcome to the Campfire. The BIG decision is which handgun; the cartridge is waaay down the list. The handgun you pick will dictate the chambering to a large degree. A smaller and lighter design will often perform best with a smaller and lighter cartridge.

In addition to the benefits already mentioned, the .45 ACP is low-pressure and generally subsonic. That translates into being easy on the handgun, easy on recoil, and easy on your nervous system if you ever have to touch one off indoors. Some folks talk about �auditory exclusion�, referring to the theory of hearing (and other senses) ignoring sensory overload in a time of excitement or panic. I fired a .357 Mag indoors once just to say I did, and I was near deaf and blind long enough to have serious doubts in the theory.

I ain�t saying the .45 ACP is quiet indoors, but it doesn�t induce a feeling that my nutz are gonna fall off.

Yep (and I'm getting use to this) GW and JOG have pointed out the error of my response.

It's not the "next" questions, but the first questions are: how much experience do you have with handguns? And, please define the intended defensive and field uses of your guns (yes, plural)? Is the defensive pistol to be primarily a house gun, or a CCW? Is the field gun to be a hunter, or a pack/hiking/back-up?

Fill us in on these, and a wealth of knowledge is sure to follow.

Now in person, I'd remove a foot from my mouth...what is it electronically, a keyboard from my mouth...

More Info,

1. I feel fairly experienced and have been carrying CCW for a few years. Most exp is with revolvers. I'm getting lazy about cleaning all 6 cylinders, and the couple autos I have sure clean fast and easy.

2. The basic use would be defensive, but would like to become proficient enough to provide survival (rabbit, grouse or larger) food for the pot, if neccesary.

3. I'm a bowhunter, so yes, pack/hike/backup.

I'm aware of the history and popularity of the 45 ACP, but is there any factual data? Have more been stopped or killed because of the large numbers of 45 out there?

As far as pistol choice, because I live in northern CO (at 7000 ft and up) with a lot of cold I thought the Glock might be good. According to thier hype. I do however really like to see and use a hammer.

I know most 1911 users advocate cocked and locked. Would it be totally wrong to keep one in the chamber, hammer half cocked, and pull hammer back when ready to fire?

One more obstical, I'm a lefty.

The .45 ACP works for a number of reasons. It's a low pressure round that is easy on the equipment and the shooter. Brass is cheap and easy to come by. It's easy to work up good reloads that are accurate and cost effective. The .45 just plain works on the target range, for self defense and for some limited range hunting.

It makes a great back up during hunting season too.

the 1911 was designed to be carried cocked and locked. If this makes you uncomfortable then go with the glock. Carrying the 1911 at half cock defeats the design.

Good Luck

On most 1911s its awkward to let the hammer down or to cock it because of the grip safety. Safer to carry it cocked and locked than to lower the hammer over a loaded chamber every time.

Don't worry about being a lefty. Plenty of 1911s out there with ambi safeties.

Chris,

Ditto what Rdinak said about cocked and locked - a conventional 1911 is designed be carried that way. There's a much better chance of an AD fiddlin' with the hammer.

However, you don't have to buy a Glock just yet <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> - designs such as the Para Ordinance LDA series of 1911's are double action. I don't own one yet, but I have a few hundred rounds through loaners - they are slick.

FWIW:

Jeff Cooper is the Primary Advocate (among Many, Many, Experienced advocates) of the 1911 and 45 ACP. The purpose of a defensive weapon is to stop fights.

Jeff has fought the fights, conducted the research, and trained the warriors for 50 years now. His research indicates about 99.9% one shot stops with the 45 ACP, assuming good shot placement. The 9mm stops about half half as many with one shot and good shot placement.

From a factual standpoint, the case for the 45 ACP has been closed for two or three decades--it flat works for its intended purpose.

Much like the 98 mauser chambered for 30-06, the 1911 in 45 ACP works every time, decade after decade.

There are very few combinations that are so thoroughly proven under adverse conditions.

BMT

Okay, given your answers to the earlier questions - get the 1911 in .45 ACP. It'll do everything you want and it'll do it well. Yeah, Glocks have a lot of hype, and most of it can be backed-up, but the 1911 is a legend for a reason. If it worked at the Chosin Reservoir, the jungles of SE Asia, and the deserts of Africa, the Middle East and central Asia (and it did), it'll work in northern Colorado. Besides, you just "need" a 1911...

Now, the next decision is what model (full-size, commander, officers, etc.) and what make. My choice: no smaller than a commander, and probably a full-size since you say you've already got a CCW and revolvers to carry concealed (S&W snub?). Also, since you're looking for something that will go in the field with you, a stainless model might be in order.

Try a few of the reputable different makes out, and go with what feels good to you. If you ask, you can/will probably get a whole list of opinions on which maker is better than others, but any of the "better" makers are going to have a model or two that will satisfy your needs quite well. After that, as with your bow, your revolvers, and your truck, it's all just personal preference.

I think it's important to separate the .45 ACP from the 1911 for these types of discussions. The cartridge is a winner, but a cocked & locked, single-action 1911 ain't for everybody.

It�s not necessarily a matter of training and there�s no condescending tone in my voice � some folks just do not become comfortable with cock & locked, just as some folks refuse to carry a revolver with a round under the hammer.

Personally, Glocks with 3-lb triggers and no active safeties give me the willies <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

I'll slide in here, most has been covered by the others. I need to reiterate one thing though, Glock has a lot of hype and a short history, the 1911 platform has mucho history that simply does not need hype. ANY quality 1911, Colt or clone will deliver reliability and "combat accuracy" with very little tweaking. they will deliver target grade accuracy (some of the newer clones like Kimber and the Springfied loaded series) will do it right out of the box. BUT, you must be comfortable with Cocked and Locked, it is the ONLY way to carry it for instant use. I have killed a small blackie (300lbs) with one many moons ago with one COM hit (she stood up and I shot) I believe a .44 mag would be better for bear though IMHO. Cats are FAST and at 50 yards or under you ain't gonna get a shot off unless you are already aiming at it with the safety off, and then it will be 99% luck if you win!

Boils down to what YOU are comfortable with and will carry, me, in bear country it is a S&W custom 5" round butt 29 .44 maggie. Any other time it is the Colt series 70 or a pre 70 Commander. YMMV. Good luck and good shooting.

Thanks for all the great input! I'm pretty much sold on the 1911 and I do appreciate the advise against half vs cocked and locked. And yeah VAnimrod, its a model 19 snub in 357 and suprisingly enough I can hit a small target out to 50 yds in SA mode. The 19 is heavy son of a gun, and I was hoping for something lighter. Thats one reason for the Glock, especially the 10 shot compact, although I wonder how controllable it would be. As far as short barrels I'm pretty comfortable.

While I was out this afternoon I bought a new Guns & Ammo mag "Book of the 1911".

Any more advise is sure welcome! Thanks again!

Not sure what your 19 weighs, but I'll bet you'll have a hard time finding a .45ACP that weighs much less. Even a Glock 36 will push 30oz when loaded with 7 rounds....

If you have your heart set on a semi-auto for these tasks, you'd better make it a 10mm, and get yourself some damn hot loads, with really good bullets if you're going to hunt black bear with it. Better yet, buy a Desert Eagle. Most people I know use revolvers for woods guns, usually in .44 mag, or hot loaded 45 Colts, especially if bear is on the agenda. When you buy a gun, buy one suitable to the most difficult task you can possibly imagine you will face. Trying to pick one that goes right down the middle of your needs can be dangerous, it will likely be too powerful for your lighter needs, and not powerful enough for heavy work. Mediocrity in action.

Bob

I don't think he's talking about "hunting" black bears or cougars, I think he's talking about defense from being hunted by black bears and cougars....

I suppose that you are correct.

But I would still reccomend that a guy who is already carrying on a daily basis give serious consideration to the 1911/45ACP combo.

I woulds be more concerned about "user" issues with a newbie.

Good Shooting,

BMT

Ask Phil Shoemaker what he uses for Brownies. And what his daughter uses.

BMT,

"But I would still recommend that a guy who is already carrying on a daily basis give serious consideration to the 1911/45ACP combo."

I agree absopositively. Both the cartridge and the pistol are arguably the best thing going, and the combination of the two is unbeatable for self-defense - given the shooter 'likes' the platform.

I don't usually carry a 1911 in the woods, but when I do it's Condition 3 - hammer down, empty chamber, full magazine.

I know you know, but for those that don't:

Condition 0 - hammer cocked, chambered round, full magazine (or -1), safety off.

Condition 1 - "Cocked & Locked", hammer cocked, chambered round, full magazine, safety on.

Condition 2 - Hammer down, chambered round, full magazine.

Condition 3 - Hammer down, empty chamber, full magazine.

Condition 4 - Hammer down, empty chamber, no magazine (some say empty magazine).

Chris,
Welcome!

I've read the posts and believe you would be well served to look at the Scandium framed Smith 1911. It's a Commander size and would carry easily. I have read that is is not nearly as punishing in the recoil department as Smith's other light weights. S&W's 1911's have alwasy appeared very accurate in the tests I've read. I am sure I will find one following me home one day in the near future.

As far as the adequacy of the 1911 for your purposes, it has been well covered by others, although reading between the lines is always advisable. A well constructed 230 grain 45 slug traveling at 950 fps, should be an effective fight stopper with most black bears and any mountain lion if put on target properly. If you want more gun, you ususally have to put up with more weight and bulk.

The 10mm some have advocated has merit, too. I have a Glock 20 and believe it to be a very useful pistol to have along in the woods.

In an auto, the 45 and 10mm are the only way to go unless you handload, then the 460 Rowland would be another good choice. That's always an easy $300.00 option with a 1911 platform, Scandium not included possibly. I have a 460 Rowland in a Kimber Classic Stainless and it is fun! The Rowland gives pretty honest 44 mag medium intensity performance out of a 1911. That should be comforting if big bears live in the woods you frequent.

You're on the right track it sounds like. If you have never had a 1911, I'd recommend to try one out. I went through many many years of gun ownership before I bought my first one and now I can't think of being without one. I still like and own other handguns and several revolvers for hunting, but the 1911's have a special niche. Good luck!

Probably. Still, if you know there's a reasonable chance of such an encounter, shouldn't you properly prepare for it? One big difference between hunting any kind of dangerous game, and a chance encounter, is that if you have a chance encounter, you're going to be more scared by the encounter than if you were actually hunting the animal. Fright makes for poor marksmanship for most of us, why compound the situation by only carrying a marginal caliber for such a potential encounter? If you want a 45 ACP, then by all means get one. But get it because you want it, and for no other reason. There's nothing wrong with that at all...

Bob

If there is needed an alternative to the 45 ACP, one is easily at hand.

Pick the round that the ACP was designed to replace/imitate and in a modern firearm. 45 LC in Ruger Blackhawk, an S&W Mtn. Gun, or a Taurus Tracker. Any of the three of these will suffice to do the same thing that the 1911 will do (which, BTW, I have previously stated is an excellent choice and "needed" by Chris). Also, all three have 4 to 5 inch barrels, making them as packable as the 1911, and the Taurus has the option of titanium for lighter weight (though giving up one round, 5 v. 6). The Ruger, though heavier and SA, will take much heavier loads. The S&W is very well made and very balanced, perhaps a good compromise for the intended use. All are accurate and reliable.

Just thought I'd mention these, as well as the exact same revolvers in .44 Mag, with the benefit of .44 Special light loads for practice. Since Chris is familiar with revolvers, these, IMHO, ought to at least be considered. No sense settling on a firearm without considering all the alternatives, esp. if the alternatives give rise to a "justification" for another addition to the safe (say, a 1911 for self-defense/CCW and a 45LC revolver for field use?)

anachronism-

You wrote about the way that shooting skills fail under stress. I've never been in a deadly personal encounter but judging from some of the blunders I've seen in the hunting field, I'd say you're right. And if anything, that is one of the strongest arguments in favor of a 1911 automatic. They have got to be just about the easiest major caliber handgun to shoot well under stress. From the competition arena- be it IPSC, Bianchi Cup, IDPA- to the military context, competitors and warriors alike continue to choose the 1911 because its fine ergonomics and good, repeatable trigger offer the highest possible hit potential.

In general no one would ever argue that the 45 ACP is the best medicine for irate predators. It's even been known to fail on a human adversary once or twice. But consider this. For generations, outdoorsmen- cowboys, prospectors, outfitters, explorers, game wardens- relied on cartridges like the 44-40, the 44 Special and the 45 Colt. They used these venerable rounds to repel human foes, to drop raging bulls and crazed horses. And I'm sure one or two sourdoughs out there used it in defense against a bear. Now consider that the 45 ACP can be loaded with a hardcast bullet possesing a decently large meplat. With modern powders, those same bullets can be driven to 950 fps with ease and safety. In other words, one can reproduce the ballistics of those other well-proven field rounds and maintain all the advantages of the 1911 platform. Again. Is it ideal? No. Will it work? As well as anything else.

I'm also at a point in my life where I am beginning to question the supremacy of the revolver as a field weapon. We all champion their reliability in the field but the more I study the subject, the less sure I am of the assumption that revolvers are the best choice because of their low maintenance requirement. After all, the armies of the world subject their handguns to extremes that most of us will never know. And they adopted the autoloader many decades ago. Obviously, a revolver is never a mistake. That's especially true if you want real power. But in a world of compromises, a 1911 with a stout 230 grain hardcast bullet loaded to about 900 to 950 fps is not the worst thing in a world.

Chris57K, we haven't heard what you plan to do with the gun. For personal protection against man and mamals smaller than Brown Bear, the .45acp is a great round. The pistol you choose depends on where you're taking it, and how much you're willing to practice. If you don't want to "earn your stripes" practicing with an semi-auto, then stick with a revolver in a caliber of .41 or bigger for general outdoors open carry. For an autoloader, the Glock is most simple to learn the manual of arms, and is also very impervious to neglect while pursuing other outdoor activities. The 1911 requires more training/practice, and maintenance, but the payoff is very high, and the 1911 design has a strong cult following for good reason. The 45acp is the first and best cartridge for the 1911 design.

The .45 ACP has proven fight stopping ability, and the 1911 is the most shootable and easiest to carry and conceal of any auto design going. It is a time proven package for self-defense concealed carry. In the area of a hunting and the outdoors, however, it is adequate at best. To restate what others have said, you need two guns. For the field, get a stainless .44 Magnum revolver. For concealed carry get something like the Smith and Wesson 1911Sc, which is a lightweight commander type of 1911 which is well made, light weight and durable, due to having a frame made from a scandium alloy. Nothing wrong with a full size/weight 1911 either, as the design is easy to carry and conceal, due to flatness, and the weight will absorb a lot of recoil. The Springfield TRP would be a great choice for that, IMHO. Good luck.