I'm putting this up as a bit of a public service, in response to some of the nonsense that's been posted on the 24HCF and elsewhere regarding use of deadly force in the past few months. A lot of people seem to have formed their opinions from a mishmash of TV and movie dramas, the news media, and conversation with their friends. The internet has done us all a disservice in that anyone, no matter how ignorant, can post his faulty opinions and expect them to be read and believed by other ignorant people.

I've been dealing with the realities of the use of force and the use of deadly force for close to 20 years now, as a physician, as a police officer, and as an armed citizen. I have taken basic and advanced training in the legalities, ethics, and practice of using deadly force. Over the years I've seen the consequences of these realities up close and personal... fortunately, not in a way that has destroyed my life.

But I've seen a lot of people's lives destroyed by their ignorance of the realities of use of deadly force. Unfortunately, much of what is written about the use of deadly force on the Internet and apparently believed by many people is utter garbage.

If you don't believe me, dig out the last 5 years of American Handgunner and read The Ayoob Files in each issue. Ayoob doesn't dwell on it, but the life-destruction suffered by the people he writes about is horrific.

So here's the short version of what I know to be true about the use of a handgun (or any firearm, for that matter) in an act of self-defense:

1. If you carry or even own a firearm for purposes of self-defense, you are an idiot if you don't spend the money and time to get training. I'm not talking basic handgun training. I'm talking about training in the use of deadly force.

2. There are 3 people in America who conduct this training at the highest level. Their names are Massad Ayoob, John Farnam, and Clint Smith. Massad Ayoob's class is probably the most accessible. After I took his LFI-I class in 1998, I went home and registered my entire family for the class. I have since come to realize that John and Clint teach much the same material. And I state without equivocation that if you don't take one of these guys' classes but you still intend to use your firearm for self-defense, you're just asking to have your life destroyed.

3. You can get Ayoob's and Farnam's training for about the price of a good handgun and a holster and a year's supply of ammunition (if you ever bother to practice with that fancy gun, which most handgun owners don't, of course). Smith will run you a bit more, but what he teaches is worth the extra dough. If you have a safe full of guns and you haven't taken training in the use of deadly force, you're lying about being serious about armed self-defense.

4. If you shoot somebody, even if you did so in what you think was self-defense, have realistic expectations about what is likely to happen.
a. EXPECT to be arrested and charged.
b. Expect to be handcuffed and taken to jail.
c. Expect a very nasty series of interrogations.
d. Expect to have to hire a good lawyer, and expect to spend the next 1-2 years defending yourself.
e. Expect to have to mortgage your house and liquidate all your assets to pay your legal costs.
f. Expect to lose your guns.
Start with these expectations, because they are far more likely than the chances you are going to be allowed to go home and sleep in your own bed for a while. (But if you've taken appropriate deadly force training, your chances of making it through this horror relatively unscathed is much better than if you follow all the advice you've been reading on the internet.)

5. If you live in a place like rural Texas or Montana, most of what I've described in #4 probably won't happen. If you live in a major city or in a Blue state, most of #4 is likely. But much of it will happen, even if you did everything right.

6. Life isn't fair. Deal with it.

7. The police are not going to be your friends if you shoot somebody. It's their job to arrest and charge people who shoot other people, and then let the legal system sort it out. They don't care if you think you're a good guy.

8. The prosecutors are not going to be your friends if you shoot somebody. It's their job to put you in prison for the rest of your life, whether you deserve to be there or not. They don't care if you think you're a good guy.

9. Your friends and family--most of them--are not going to be friendly to you if you shoot somebody. People regard killers of other people as pariahs. They don't care that you think you're a good guy, and that you did everything right.

10. All of the above assertions apply equally to all citizens, including police and military personnel. When you kill another person, no matter what your station in life, you're in for a rough ride. Life is no kinder to cops that pull the trigger than it is to private citizens.


11. If you haven't realized by now that you need some training in the use of deadly force and how to deal with the aftermath, I don't think there's any hope for you.

One of the best postings ever. You are 100% correct.

+1, maybe even worthy of "sticky" status.

I agree with both of the posts above. Good information Doc!

Great post Doc. My take on it is I need to just reread Ayoob's books and move my a$$ to "rural Montana" instead of dropping the coin for one or all of their classes.

TAK... trust me on this: sell a gun or two and take Ayoob's class. You won't regret it and it just might save your life.

At a minimum, buy Ayoob's books; they are a huge eye-opener as far as what really goes on in self-defense situations, and when people have their eyes opened, they can see the need for additional training.

very good post.

Good post, Doc. It really points out just how F'd up our justice system is.

We can be neighbors!


Travis

Good post Doc.


Travis

OUTSTANDING Doc! And it surely needed sayin'.

Thanks for the post Doc

I do agree with you Doc! but not always the case, I agree with the extra traing. my boss and friend did shoot someone this past spring, big city in Ohio, shot at him 4 times hit him 3 times, useing hard ball ammo 40cal., even the cops asked him WHY he didnt have other bullets, yes the guy lived, he broke into my buddies house middle of the night thinking, they were on vaction in Fla. Cops were cool after they got the facts, werent to cool at 1st, as my buddie was holding the guy at gun point, the guy was armed with a crow bar, we both work as Security officers at a Nuc. plant. so have had some extra traing in this. Guy had a long rap sheet, My friend has come out of this good, never went to jail ect. but it bothers him, on what he had to do, his wife and 6 year son , were there, so they still dealing with that happanded! not a thing anyone should have to go thru. but its the crappy world that we live in. Thanks for posting this Doc.

You betcha! Not that most folks in MT actually have what easterners think of as neighboors. A lot of folks in MT live a hell of a long way from just about everyone and everything else, I've observed. It ain't just Big Sky country, it is just plain big.

After 30 years of LE I can tell you it is going to be the attitude of the responding officers, investigating officers and the prosecutor(s) on how miscible your life is after a lethal force encounter even if the BG doesn't die.

Do two identical things in two different jurisdictions and one you don't even go before a judge and in the other you'll be in jail till you make bond or go to trial...

Hopefully Doc this will wake a few people up....Bob

Very good post. What you have described outlines the reasons why I have choosen not to obtain a carry permit. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone that wants to carry, but for ME, I think the risks are too high.

It seems that too many people out there have managed to twist around the laws to justify shooting someone over a fistfight. Even in the "wild west" days shooting an unarmed man was a problem...and every fistfight didn't automatically become a gunfight.

If I lived it that bad of an area that I needed to carry, I would move. I have guns in my home, I feel that is enough.
I can't carry one on a plane, in a courtroom, in a bank, or a bar, and those are probably the most likely places where I would need one.

For me, it just isn't worth the risk.

Great post.

If one has ANY contact with any type of law enforcement or investigators, or prosecution, the rule is to shut up and button up. Use your 5th Amendment right with any law enforcement encounter and inform them that you are invoking your right and you've nothing to say if you are asked questions. Any attorney worthy of practicing law will put an huge stamp of approval on what I just typed and it could be an deciding factor on where you spend your future.

Yes. Watch this if you haven't seen it already:

It's a great post Doc, and the only thing I have to add is to make sure you have the money to hire a lawyer lined up in advance. Trying to mortgage your house after the fact may not work. Loan applications ask about litigation and threatened litigation and the proposed purpose of the loan. Lying on loan applications to federally insured institutions is a federal crime. If the loan purpose is "hiring a lawyer to defend against shooting", don't expect a favorable response unless the loan to value ratio is really good.

Farnam lives about 50 miles away and does a lot of seminars in my area, so I probably will do one one of his seminars in the near future.

No arguments from me. One of the reasons I don't carry.

You'd rather be dead than deal with the hassle of remaining alive? Even if you feel that way about yourself, what about others for whom you care?

I don't knock a man for making his own decisions reference self defense. That being said, Cheyenne does have a valid point about the protection of others in your family.

My ex-wife was a sheep. No matter how much I tried to make her understand that there were bad people in the world, and that the protection of our then infant son fell to her if I was not there to take care of that duty myself, she would always arrive at the same conclusion. She'd just say that she could not hurt another human. No amount of reasoning helped, and finally I came to the conclusion that she was only being honest.

OPC... this is good, sound, basic advice.

Anyone who follows it is far better off than someone who has "verbal diarrhea" when interviewed by responding officers and investigating officers.

However, it is truly basic advice. Ayoob's class takes this past basic, past intermediate, and into advanced training in how to deal with responding and investigating officers. He also trains you in how to say what you need to say so you've got a bit of practice at it before you have to try it out in real life. Interesting and highly valuable training.

IIRC, this portion of Ayoob's class is about 3-4 hours long, which means at current prices you're paying less than a hundred bucks for 4 hours of training that will save you, conservatively, many thousands of dollars if/when TSHTF for you.

I'm not gonna shut up about this, guys. You can pay now, or you can REALLY pay later. It's your choice.

Yes. Standing mute could cost someone a lot of evidence and witnesses if the police don't know what to look for.

Having read every word and then done some searches on classes offered I find there is now way I will ever afford one of these classes or the travel to attend one.

After thinking it over and sleeping on it I have decided that if I ever have to use my firearm for self defense I will be in big trouble. There will be no money for attorney fees. Loosing the farm and having my family become homeless is not an option. Therefore if I ever have to defend myself it looks like the best option would be to turn my carry weapon on myself before the police get there. At my age, income level and with my pain it is not all that bad a choice.

Here is something I belong to. Texas residents might be interested.
http://www.uslawshield.com/texas/
Hasbeen

I hate to break it to you, Scott, but the family of the deceased can still sue your estate.

Working on taking my name off everything I own. At 63 why do I need to own anything? Give it to the kids now and be done with it, at least in name.

But this way I will not go to jail and no officer will have to live with having to shoot me.

Well fortunately, where I live my greatest fear is from damn dogs when I'm walking and shooting them is not reasonable. A stout walking stick usually discourages them.

To answer your question, one, at my age, death is a blessing and two, yes. Losing everything and spending the rest of my life in jail has never interested me for defending my life. Unfortunately, we live in society and culture where the bad guys are the victims and the good guys are the criminals. Here in Montana, a shooting might be considered justified for self defense and probably would be but the civil trial will bankrupt you for life and have you out on the street corner begging for alms. That possibility doesn't interest me.

I have always believed there are things worse than death. If you take a law course dealing with shooting for self defense it will discourage you from defending yourself from much of anything. You see what people go through from defending themselves from Grizzly attack. Multiply that by ten to understand what happens from defending yourself from human attack.

Another reason why I don't carry.

Defending your self is a no win situation.

I don't get the defeatist attitudes. Life is not always easy, but death is a perminent solution to a temporary problem. Tough times do not last forever

We are all going to die of something so who cares. Death early or late doesn't make much difference.

Why allow your life to be cut short? Makes no sense to me. Once dead, there is no way back

And life in prision is better? Watching your family on the street with nothing is better?


If this is 100% true and I have to defend myself or family at the cost of everything for my family I will just take away that option. But I ill NOT be denied my right to defend thos I love.

Think about it. I am acrippled 63 year old. If I am arrested and thrown in jail what are my odds of survival?

A number of years ago I prevented an attack because I had a handgun. It was not necessary for me to shoot my attacker; that I had the upper hand turned out to be sufficient. Looking back at the incident, I was surprised that I had remained cool and kept my wits. Had I not been alert, a few seconds delay could have ended badly for me.

While my possessions aren't worth killing someone over, I will use deadly force to protect my own life or that of an innocent. If dragged to court, due to defending myself or others, I will depend on my own ability and a public defender.

Eternal vigilance.

I'll be 62 in January and I will not give up on life. You have already decided the outcome before the fact, never a good mind set IMHO

We don't need much training to know that we will be screwed if we shoot somebody, even if the shooting is justified. Of course, being screwed by the system may be better than the alternative.

Life is full of obstacles none of which are insurmountable

I make less that $1,300 a month. How will I get a good lawyer?

You may be able to get a public defender. People not in your situation will have to sell their stuff and burn through the money, at which time they can get a public defender.

I am going to throw in a little side comment since I have put the cop bashing threads on my personal �ignore� list. Anybody who thinks that only 24HCF members and people who have been through Ayoob/Smith/Farnam classes are the only people who understand the aftermath of shootings obviously has never been to a police academy in, at least, the last couple of decades. Not only are these ramifications hammered into trainees, but also the fact that the feds get a criminal crack at you and the �use of forcee� gets a federal civil crack at you if you are acting �under color of law.� In addition, the liability can be personal and not covered by insurance or taxpayer dollars (or recoverable by taxpayers), and not be dischargeable in bankruptcy. For every �bad cop� video that graces 24HCF, I can cite to examples where officers have taken extreme risks to their own safety to avoid having to shoot someone. When they are done, they clean up or get treated and released from a hospital and go back into service. This sometimes gets categorized by administrator types as �bravery,� but, in most instances, it is not so much bravery as a fear of the aftermath of a shooting. Even for the most cynical of our members here, they should consider that most police are in the baby-making, house buying and car buying phases of their lives, and a lawsuit or potential criminal prosecution may not shut down the baby making, but it sure shuts down the ability to get loans for the other stuff for years as the litigation winds its way through the courts. Anyone who thinks that police get �free shots� with no consequences is laboring under a severe delusion.

Sorry for the sidetrack, but I couldn�t figure out where else to say this.

Edited to add: Ayoob will tell you that even the baby making ability may suffer as a result of a shooting.

I don't disagree with any you said. The "don't talk to the cops" thing has always puzzled me. If you shoot a guy in your house at 2AM who is pointing a gun at you, call the cops and tell them "I have just shot a home invader", they show up, find the guy with the gun next too him, and want to interview you, what do you say? I want my lawyer? Does this not make you seem guilty of some crime??? Do you not say anything at all other than "I want my lawyer"?? Its always worried me regards the proper response in this or a similar situation.

Your right, most of what is on the Internet is garbage, including most of your post. You are correct in that citizens should get trained in the use of a handgun.

If anyone has some data (I love bar graphs) showing the % of cases where each step of this progression happens on a legitimate shoot I would love to see them.

I certainly would not want to burden my family by taking my own life.. Not a good thing at all

Just make sure all the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed.

One more time. Watch it this time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Keep your trap shut until you have an attorney present.

I could also spend a life time in prison and that makes no sense either especially for defending my life. I could also be executed for defending my life as well. That makes no sense either but it could happen. I could spend the rest of my life homeless to for defending my life and that makes no sense either.

The point being the cost of living maybe more than the cost of death. It's the economist in me that makes me look at everything from a cost benefit analysis.

..well....I have known several score of people who have killed BGs..and not a one of them was sued. Dallas had 80+- LE shooting a year while I was there and in 800+- shooting only one officer lost their job over it....and again I knew no one who was sued. There were some suits filed against the City and these were always the trash lawyers who knew that the City will pay just to avoid court even though the IAD investigation and the Grand Jury said everything was done correctly. And it used to piss us off because it made the POs look bad but it cost the City less to give someone some money vs. the expense of going to court.

Same with the civilians I have known who have shot someone...no one was sued, no one went to jail/prison, no one lost their house. You have as much liability running a red light and killing someone as you do shooting someone.

The biggest thing to remember is that you don't even PULL your gun until someone is about to loose their life. The second biggest thing is practice and training. Go take a class even if it just a locally given NRA Personal Protection in the Home or Outside the Home Course. They are usually very reasonable... My club puts them on for $75.00. The going rate is about $150.00. Too many people that I meet who carry don't really even know what the laws of deadly force are in their state. Go get EDUCATED.

People protect themselves millions of times a year in the United States. You only hear about the ones that go wrong...not the ones that came out right...which are probably 99% of the incidences. I've carried a gun daily since I was 18 years old...7 years before I was a police officer and now 10 years since I retired....total of 42 years of carrying...and I don't plan on stopping.


Bob

So what this is saying in a nut shell is if you cannot afford a big lawyer bill just let the bad guys kill you and your family. After all poor folks deserve what they get.

I can't believe that so many are misinformed about the law and the criminal justice system. I guess they watch too many episodes of Law and Order.

The cost of living is worth paying IMHO, giving up to what might be is a defeatist attitude and is unacceptable IMHO

Excellent post and spot on.......

i like the info in your post, and your thinking on this matter.

of course extreme caution and reservation should be used in one's judgement in these matters, but there has been so much written about this "ramifications" angle, that it has now gone too far--and i'll leave it at that...

I agree with you 100%. I've seen that same thing happen with Grizzly attacks, one can just imagine what happens with human attacks.

One reason I recommend a mouse gun or something like a PPK/S in a mouse caliber for self defense. With a mouse gun and caliber one is less likely to play super hero and try to save the day. One is more apt, if possible, to walk away from a fight and if one has to defend one's life it will be at a very close range. Sometimes merely pointing a gun at someone is all that is needed.

Always remember, the police, like it or not, are agent's of the State. There job is to get enough information for the prosecutor to proceed to court for a conviction. It's the prosecutor who determines if charges are filed not the police.

I know all about prosecutors especially Democrat ones. I worked under Pat Leahy, the senior senator from Vermont.

http://www.leahy.senate.gov/

To each his own. I've made my decision and you have make your decision.

I cannot fathom this, if they say what happened and you say "he broke in with a gun and I was afraid for my life" then your doing something wrong. Like everything else on the internet the "don't talk to the police" is not an absolute, you have to say something other than "I want my lawyer".

Terrible advice and reasoning.

One simply states... "I will provide a complete statement and cooperate fully with your investigation once my attorney and I have conferenced and he/she is present."

They will understand completely.

Great post. I can't cite several score, but I've seen many where police and non-police did not get sued, and situations where the non-police did not spend a night in jail. Many of the non-police talked to the police, at least minimally, at the time of the incident.

To address a different post, the police are "agents of the state" whose job is to build cases against bad guys. BUT, they don't just want a conviction, they want to convict the real "bad guy," not just anybody they can make a case against. Sometimes the civilian takes out a real bad guy, and congratulations are in order (and given). That person who needs to shut up the most is the guy with a questionable shooting.

Still gotta go with Doc's advice, though, because assuming all will go well is not a good practice.

To each his own.

To each his own. I don't trust prosecutors because they are politicians and I don't really trust police because they are agents of the State and the investigative arm of the prosecuting politician.

So your solution is to give up, right? Your logic is left wanting

I think you have to basically identify yourself & the immediate situation for safety ("my door was kicked in, I saw two guys, I shot at them, one intruder dropped where you see him, the other ran back out, I may or may not have hit him. My gun is over there on the counter, still loaded".) Then lawyer up, in a polite manner.

This issue sounds like something the NRA should really put some time developing some good articles on....they may have already, I don't know. I do know that "the armed citizen" makes no mention of what the orignal poster brought up...unless the outcome is officals commending the shooter.

I'd like them (NRA) to have an few in-depth articles covering this.

Agreed but it would be really hard to do. Each state, and I am guessing that many times it would have a lot to do what part of each state the incident happens, the advice would be different. I firmly believe in my county in my state if I were to have to use a firearm to protect my self, my family or other citizens and I shot someone in the front I would be OK talking to the police and after an investigation I would still have my freedom, my farm and my guns. A justifiable shoot would not land me in jail.

I also know that everyone who decides to carry need to know the laws in their state and all the states they carry.

I carry in Washington. I have studied the gun laws in my state. I have a well read current copy of them on my night stand. I pay attention to cases in Washington state where firearms are used for defense. I keep up with those cases until they are resolved.

Were I to decide to carry in another state I would be reading up on that state's laws and all the information on defensive shooting in recent history I could find.

Cases like the ones we have read about in NYC where out of state people carried handguns without knowing the laws of NY are inexcusable. It is up to every gun owner to do their homework or pay the consequences. Just getting your permit and then going about without further thought is just stupid.

Do you have life insurancs? If so it will not pay if you commit suicide

Probably a lot of what DR stated originally is true and more so in the eastern states as he noted. I imagine being arrested and charged is what one wants to happen and then the charges dismissed.That pretty much leaves out the possibility of a civil suit with negative out come for the person.

The problem being,at least for me, is that if one has to stop and weigh the consequences if and when they have to pull thier weapon, the chances of them coming out alive is diminsihed considreably IF thier life was in danger.That split second or two can make a world of difference in the out come.

If I ever have to pull my firearm, it will mean that my life or someone in my family is in danger of dying. Someone is poing to die and I will do my best to make sure it is the other guy.

I don't have much in the way of wordly possesions, and I will suffer the outcome whatever it may be.Being homeless is a heck of a lot better than being dead.

Anyone who decides to carry a weapon for self defense had best make up thier mind before doing so, that should the necessity arise,they will use deadly force. If not they should not be carrying. Figuring that just drawing your weapon and pointing it will be suffficient is not an option.

This whole discussionis about like the discussion that one should not carry reloads in thier carry gun as it is can lead to bad repercussion with a prosecuting attorney.

L

Even that can be saying too much.

Providing identification is a given for any situation when asked, in some cases it is a lawful requirement. Location of weapons for safety should be kept simple, like "my firearm is over there."

It is really best to discuss this subject with an attorney well versed in the laws of one's state. Know beforehand what you SHOULD say on ANY 911 call for service and know that what you say when the police/ambulance/fire/EMS arrive can be used not in your favor.

It is hard to think straight after a stress situation. It is more difficult for an attorney to clean up even minor mistakes in questioning after they have been said. It is simply too easy to say too much.
Even officers involved in OIS get time to meet with their legal reps before making complete statements.

Call 911 FIRST. Keep it simple. That is the reasonabile attempt to provide higher authority medical care and to provide for security of persons and premesis with requesting police.

Be prepared to take a ride in a cruiser if you are not injured. Don't refuse medical care if offered.

I am not a lawyer, but I have obtained such counsel for myself.

Very interesting post, Thanks Doc.

Gunner

That's really good advice. I'm surprised that so many "enlightened" western states don't have a law like we have on the books here in Michigan. It basically says that if a shooting is ruled justifiable, you cannot be sued in civil court.

Why would anyone try to play superhero? A CPL (MI) doesn't give you police powers. If me or mine aren't directly threatened, it's someone else's problem. If they weren't prepared to deal with it, shame on them.

I agree and would like to see that. I would like to see tort reform but it will never happen as there are to damn many lawyers.

I agree why would anyone want to play super hero but many do. Having a large auto with a eighteen round mag or something is not needed in my opinion for most self defense situations. Self defense is not a gun fight. If I chose to carry for self defense I would carry something similar to a Walther PPK/S or a Sig P232 which looks a lot like a PPK/S.

In any self defense situation I always try to put as much distance between an attacker or potential attacker as possible. If possible, I always try to get the hell out of Dodge as fast as I can.

I guess you have never ran out of ammo, judging by your response. It is better to have and not need than to need and not have

No. Affordable insurance has not been avalable to me in at least 15 years. My medical is now VA or what I pay form with cash at the time of teatment.

ive got no doubt the local cops would treat me fair.....they would do things by the book and nothing more.....my issue is that the county attorney does not like me at all and would love to [bleep] me over should the person i shot have been white....were they native than if there are any charges its gonna be in federal court.....consider the city police chief and his right hand guy to be friends of mine but were i to shoot someone, even in my house with a busted in front door im just gonna tell them im claiming self defense and thats all im saying till i talk to my lawyer....im not concerned with how the local law enforcement is gonna treat me, i am concerned with what happens after the initial questioning and need to protect my arse from any lawyers....

In my young days I carried a Dan Wesson .357 mag with six rounds and never felt like I needed more ammo. I always figured if I haven't kill all my opponents with the first few rounds I would not need any more because I would be dead.

I suppose it's because I grew up with the 1911 and seven round magazines. Even today if I carried my full size 1911 I would just use seven round magazines.

One man confronted by armed multiply threats is not going to live very long anyway if the threats make a stand. You can't watch all the threats at the same time.

History has shown your point of view to be invalid. You have a defeastist mentality

Yep. It is the guaranteed quickest route to failure.

I can not comprehend the mindset of not valuing ones own life, or the life of their loved ones enough to be willing to fight to keep it. Folks constantly rave about "losing their rights" but would refuse to exercise the most basic right to defend their own life? It blows my mind.

Crazy world, huh?

A sad reality, but it should be a focal point for demanding that it be altered, as it violates fundamental human rights.

Dude, history is full of examples of individuals winning against over whelming odds, I in fact intend to prevail no matter how the odds are stacked. It is a decision that I made a very long time ago and it has served me well. I have been in several situation that many thought that I would not survive but I did and intend to continue to do so

I think you missed recognizing my somewhat tongue in cheek intent in my posts.

While I am absolutely sure Doc's OP is spot on target for much of this country it really is not for where I live. I have read case after case where a legal gun owned hass used deadly force for self defense and suffered not of the results listed.

But just consider for a moment someone who finds themselves in my situation. If I sold a couple of my guns to attend such classes there would be no need to attend. A non gun owner would not benefit. So my choices are not to carry and not to defend myself or family or carry without the benefit of all the recommended training and a full time attorney well versed in self defense law to follow me wherever I go.

I was honest when I stated I live on less than $1300 a month with a $550 farm payment and no health insurance. Those are the facts. What would you do?

I will carry, I will practice whenever I can, I will do my best to be ready should I need to use my carry weapon, and I will do what I think is best should I ever have to use that carry weapon and face the aftermath. However a 63 year old crippled man does not face a great future in jail. He just might be better off dead.

I think it was McPhearson that said anyone who hunts dangerous game with hand loads and thinks there 100% reliable,needs to think twice,although he was talking about the 454 Casull.

I always buy one box of any caliber,rifle or pistol,of factory ammunition of the sort I will be reloading too.First to chronograph for velocity then to save the rest for possible/reliable use.

To each his own and he is an avid reloader as most of us here are.

Jayco

Please STFU.

Thanks,
Travis

As regards lawyers, lawsuits, gettng arrersted for self defense, etc ... All I know is:

I have a hell of a lot less to worry about when I have a handgun than when I don't. (PERIOD!)

My friend, we do not live in that different of a time or a financial sphere (you and I).
I am addressing those who would cower from the very thought of defending what is precious to them.
Legalities aside, it is not that complex an issue. Protect thy house.
I'd gladly stand with you to do just that.

The crucial inforamtion can be shared outside any "formal" training, especially for those who have never been through a bad time. Listening to those who have will be much more worthwhile. Keep your weapons and save your dollars. Some of us can and do share what we know to be factual.

pal

Remember they call it a Legal System, not a justice system.

A system where 12 of what some would call your peers decide who had the best attorney.

You have your way of survival and I have my way. I've studied the Chinese martial arts and my way of survival is not based on macho tough guy. To each his own.

What do you guys think about groups like this ? armed citizens defense The NRA also has a insurance type program.

Frankly, my take on all of this is Doc is basically correct in that all of his points can happen. But, and mind you I live and have worked in law enforcement in notoriously liberal Kalifornia, I wouldn't say the last two points are highly improbable.
I've seen alot shootings by both cops and civilians. I've seen civilians go to jail intially as a regular thing. Even in odvious cases of self defense. But they seldom get charged if there is much evidence of self defense. They seldom get sued either. While we have no law protecting those who use deadly force in self defense, one can always counter sue those who try to sue you in such cases. We can also sue their attorneys if the case is malicious enough.
As odd or difficult as it sounds, you are far better off keeping your mouth shut after the cops arrive. When you call it in, describe how you or yours had your lives threatend, and tell the cops that shots were fired but not by whom. If the bad guy has been shot, tell them he is still there and suffering from gunshot wounds. Requesting an ambulance for him is a good idea. No, you haven't attempted to give him first aide because you are terrified of him, etc.
Where most get into trouble is where they come to the aide of people they don't know, they use deadly force against unarmed property crimes, shooting fleeing felons, or they shoot someone who has punched them a time or two.
I'd also point out that I'm sick and tried of seeing people get killed who bluff with a gun or refuse to defend themselves when attacked. For every person I'm aware of who has been bankrupted by a bad shooting, I've seen a dozen who have been crippled or killed who wouldn't fight back. Some of these people were cops, BTW.
Even in liberal Kalifornia, the prevaling attitude is you are always better off fighting back. Ask anybody who has worked with rape victims and spousal abuse victims. E

Certainly something to look into.

I just got my concealed carry permit.... Im a former Marine... and READING THIS....I feel under-trained

I could not agree more especialy the part high lighted ion red. I once worked with a guy thaqt had spent time in prison for armed robbery. He told me that he and his partner took nothing from people that they thought would fight back. He said that they aiways looked for "victims" and left those alone that did not look like a "victim"

One should never look for trouble but one should indeed defend him of herself if the need arises

Yet in an earlier post, you mentioned that you were quite old and a bit infirm. That's why there's the old saying-God created man but Sam Colt made them equal.

There is another adage I would like to add.

"Derby dude doesn't know what the [bleep] he is talking about".


Travis

I just looked into that Armed Citizens network and contacted one of their instructors. I guess we should all retain an attorney in the event God forbid that we ever have this happen to us.

The "Dude" seems to be missing the point, no one is advocating looking for trouble. The difference is when one is attacked one either defends him of her self or gives in to the attacker and is at the mercy of someone that has no mercy

Spot on

I don't understand this reasoning at all.

That's because it is un-understandable

He's missing something. That's for certain.


Travis

Yeah, I don't know why I went back and read this thread. Between Scott and DerbyDood it really went down the toilet.

While I have not been to Ayoobs class, I have seen videos of him regarding this very thing. As I recall, Massad's instructions were for YOU to state to the arriving officer...."I am the COMPLAINANT, there is the SUSPECT (while you point to bad guy), and I will give you a full statement after consulting with council". Then don't say another darn word until you get with an attorney, PERIOD!

Derby Dude, perhaps there are instances where your statement could be correct, but there are most certainly times when it would not stand the test. A self defense situation could very well be a gun fight into which you find yourself thrown. By all agreement, a person should try to keep from being in bad places, where bad things happen, but you can't always choose your emergencies. To quote my friend Mackay Sagebrush, as he so eloquently put it, "You don't always get the fight you want, you get the fight you get!"

Now I believe Mack has ducked more blue whistlers than I have in my lifetime, but his point is crystal clear.......dangerous situations can pop up anywhere, and each one has it's own solution. Sometimes evasion is the best answer, other times fighting is the only choice and one must fight with whatever weapons are at hand. The prepared warrior stands a better chance of survival than an unprepared one.

Face it, once a fight has begun, you are a combatant, willingly or not. You either win, or lose. I don't live life to lose.............

Hanging out with creeps like that big slobber lipped Patrick Leahy WILL do that to ya'.

BAD company, that.

GTC

Absolutely and sometimes even disabled people aren't unable to use a firearm responsibly due to infirmities.

The first order has to be personal responsibility. One owns the bullet when it leaves the gun. For some of us small firearms that can be use up close and personal maybe the best option. Fortunately, in an area where I live the most dangerous thing is damn dogs when I'm walking. Also this city is very restrictive on where one can carry concealed even with a CCWP.

I'm a survivalist, not a defeatist or a macho tough guy. Therefore, my thinking is different than most on here.

A CCWP isn't needed outside incorporated limits.

It is if you want to carry concealed. State law prevails outside the city limits

You guys seem to be missing my point and maybe it's my fault. I'm a survivalist, I believe in the tactical retreat to live to fight another day.

I also believe in not being where everybody thinks I should be or being in places I shouldn't be.

I try to be aware of my surroundings and get the hell out of Dodge before trouble finds me.

I'm a survivalist not a defeatist. The best way to survive is not get into trouble in the first place.

I always try to see what's available for self defense besides a firearm. Sometimes stealth is a better defense than a lot of noise.

I maybe a survivalist but that doesn't mean I won't kill to save myself.

That's because you are not a survivalist. It makes sense as a survivalist.

That is State law. Our CCWP IS State law NOT city law.

No CCWP is need outside incorporated areas. In other words, it's perfectly legal to carry concealed in the boobies without a CCWP.

Now you seem to be taking the position of the rest of us

One can get into danger before one knows and that is the point. A home invasion is one of many that come to mind

I like Clint Smith, but I'd rather go to Haley Strategic than any of those...

As I said I guess it's my fault for not explaining myself better.

As to home invasion, I have a shotgun. The odds of home invasion in my AO is slim to none at all. The odds are I'll be killed by an earthquake long before I'll be killed by an home invasion.

Montana isn't perfect but it's better than just about any where else and getting better. I've been here for thirty years.

While this is true, this is just a small part of what Ayoob teaches in his course. You really need to take the whole course to get the full benefit of it.

I STRONGLY encourage you to take the class.

DD, I'm not sure I understand your position at all, and you've made some points here that just strike me as bizarre. But I'll take your word for it that you've not expressed your position clearly, and will not criticize your posts.

Instead, I'll say this, or rather reiterate it: I have been an armed citizen for a long time. I had many of the fears/anxieties you've expressed, and the only way I could deal with them was to learn more about armed self-defense. I went to Ayoob to get that training, then I went to Farnam, then several others. I learned from these teachers what I needed to know. What I could and could not do. Then I became involved with law enforcement, took police Use of Force classes, and learned that what Ayoob and Farnam teach goes beyond anything taught in the Academy.

Because of that training, I feel confident in carrying a weapon and am prepared to use it in defense of my life and the lives of my loved ones if called upon to do so. It is an awesome responsibility, and one that I fully realize could cause me a lot of grief if exercised.

It is precisely because I have taken training and inculcated into my mindset and habits the principles of that training that I can go forth as an armed citizen without fear or undue anxiety.

I think that an untrained person who chooses not to carry is wiser than one who does carry a concealed firearm.

Yeah, well, what are the men supposed to do?

Again you miss the point and change the subject from to "could happe"n to "not likely to happen"

You are a piece of work for sure and fro certain

If derby dude can paint himself a survivalist, I'm going to seize this opportunity to paint myself Jeremiah [bleep] Johnson.


Travis

I like people who say that they don't need a CCW because they never go anywhere that they'll need it. I always ask them a question-
Me- Do you hunt?
Them- Yes.
Me- How often do you carry a gun when you hunt?
Them- Always.
Me- Why don't you just carry on the days that you'll need it when you see game?
Them- But, I don't know when I'll need it.
Me- Exactly!!!

Thank goodness for our experts. The rest of the unwashed just don't know scheit.

I have no idea what you mean.

My carry philosophy is probably impossible for most people to comprehend especially in written form. I have no fear of death or anxiety about it. Being of some Native American Indian extraction and a Zen philosopher I look at death as it's a good day to die or death happens.

This does not mean I will not defend myself. Think of me in the context of Doc Holiday. If you have ever truly studied Doc's character you will understand what made him so dangerous and makes me dangerous as well.

"Dude" we are now in complete agreement, you haved no idea

Doc, like I said before, I don't doubt what you say. However, there is a limit as to what can be learned in a class about this kind of thing.
What I advise is that one strictly limit any use of deadly force to protecting yourself or your loved ones from great bodily harm or death. You must have some grounds to believe this. If possible, avoid any confrontation. But only do so safely.
Afterwards, call the cops and report that you and/or your loved ones are crime victims and tell them whatever they need to know to apprehend the bad guy, etc.
When they show up, I'd make sure I had no gun in hand. I'd also tell them I will cooperate fully, but I insist on an attorney being present during any questioning.
Heck, even this, as simple and basic as it is, is probably too much for most to remember and do. E

I live in the reality of the moment. I could play what if's all day long but I prefer to live my life instead. If I lived in some of the chit holes some you guys lived in that would be different but I don't. Montana may become a chit hole someday but by then I'll be dead so it won't matter. And yes I'm a piece of work.

"Dude" we are now in complete agreement, you have no idea

I would probably have a CCWP as it can be used for other weapons besides firearms but there are so many place that it is illegal to carry around here it's just not worth the trouble. 99% of the time my weapon of choice would be locked in the glove compartment instead of on me.

Seeing as crime is non-existent in Helena I'm not to terribly worried about it.

No kidding. That's what I've been thinking for the three or four days it seems like this thing has been taking up space at the top of the page. I did run down and took out a mortgage on my home in case I ever shoot anybody though. That part seemed intelligent...

Well, you know, you kindly favor him.

That's a good one. I'll have to remember that.

Eremicus...

Anyone who has taken Ayoob's or Farnam's or Smith's (and there are others, I'm just naming my picks for Top Three) full class have learned far more than your "limits" or untrained knowledge can imagine. You should consider doing us all a favor and take Ayoob's or Farnam's or Smith's class, then come back and report to us on what you think the limits of that training might be.

I have refrained from offering internet advice on this topic. Instead, I have tried to steer people toward the experts who have proven the worth of their advice in the real world, in real time, by training people who have used that advice to successfully negotiate the perilous times following a justifiable shooting. I will continue to do so.

"Durby Dude" needs to remember that

Cool, I have a scraggly .54 Hawken replica you need

Sam, I think you've missed the point here. I'm not claiming to be a Use of Deadly Force expert, nor am I offering "expert" advice. But a good number of the members that have responded in support of my original post by PM ARE experts in UoDF. They're not getting preachy or calling the general membership "unwashed" either. We would ALL rather see people get good training than commit an act that would put them in legal jeopardy.

All I have been saying from the beginning of this thread is that many, if not most, of the opinions and bits of advice on UoDF you'll find on the 24HCF and elsewhere on the internet are inaccurate, incomplete, and if taken as truth can lead to someone doing something very foolish in a real-life shooting.

boobies. You meant boonies. You said boobies. I hate in when I have to explain an infantile joke. Really ruins the whole effect.

Because one's knowledge, training and experience ("KTE") is relevant to the decision to use force in defense of self and others, fully documented KTE is more beneficial than undocumented KTE from an evidentiary standpoint, especially if your trainer can qualify as an expert witness. You can introduce your notes, and somene like Ayoob has the capacity to shove into a DVD player the exact stuff you watched during the training, if the court will allow you to go that far.

In court, it's not so much what you know but what you can prove.

you realize Doc, that I was somewhat tongue in cheek when I wrote that. I was taken by some of the things you postulated in your opening post, and it did rankle me just a tad.

I am sure that there are hundreds, if not thousands of folks, that a fellow could train with, and greatly benefit themselves. Mas I know personally, and while I like him, he is not so unique in his ability or his knowledge.

I have not seen that to be the rule around here. Looks like you picked the most extreme scenarios. While all of that COULD happen, I don't think it is as common as you state it is. Certainly not so much in the way of the normal happenings in Florida.

I pretty much promised not to get involved with any more 'cop bashing' threads, so I won't speak to this, other than to say that cops seem to fare pretty well after deadly use of force.

That said, sure, training is never a bad idea. Practice is a good thing as well. I'll throw in that having a damn good attorney on retainer hurts nothing, and having that attorney teach you awareness of the laws regarding deadly use of force in YOUR AREA is of great comfort as well.

I have carried some sort of gun since I was in high school. Never needed it, but the option to defend myself and my family is always present. That there may be repercussions down the road is not an unreasonable possibility. I was always worried more about some guy killing me in a dark alley, than I have been worried about a jury and prosecutor. I have a weapon for the first one, and an attorney for the second.

Doc, first of all let me say I respect you and really like what you post. I am glad your are here at the Fire.

And I appreciate you insiders information in this post. I also agree with you that every gun owner should study the firearms laws in his or her state and understand the responsibilities that come with owning a firearm. If someone decides to take the next step and legally carry a self defense firearm they take on more burden to know and understand the laws and legal use of self defense.

I have done what I can to know the laws on my state and will never carry in another state without understanding their laws.

I read up on the class Massad Ayoob offers and the nearest class to me is in Albuquerque, NM.

Here is what I found out about the cost:
Round trip air, $387
Six nights and a cheap hotel close to the New Mexico Handgun Academy, $396
Six days of meals at $40 a day, $240
Cost of the two classes, $800

That is a total of $1823 and does not count the travel to and from the airport and either end, taxes on flight and hotel, five hundred rounds of ammunition and who knows what else. I would not want to start this trip without two grand in my pocket. If I sold ALL my firearms I would not get two grand. I make under $1300 a month.

So this class is just not in my future. and according to my PM box I am not the only one by a long shot who just could not afford your recommendation.

What do you suggest for people like me. Quit carrying? Or just make the last shot of and bad guy confrontation to my own head and I suggested in jest above?

Scott, buy some books and/or videos by recognized authorities and read them and keep them on the shelf. If you can prove you bought them through receipts and/or the types of acknowledgments you get when you order online, so much the better. If you see an artice online that looks good, save it to your hard drive.

While the cost of formal training may be outside the reach of many, it does not mean you cannot document what you do.

Take care.

Thank you for this thread, I am going to take some classes and learn some more. God help me even a dolt like me sees the fail in some of the stuff posted by the bingo brained on this forum. Recently someone posted he had to have a high capacity pistol in the event he needed to create "suppressive fire" too much TV, too many video games, too much Cheeba smoked as a teen lowering the IQ 40 points or more.

Also check for classes offered free or low cost by local LE agencies. We (CCSO) offer 4 Firearms Safety courses a year, for 20 bucks you get 4 hours of safety training and legalities and state law on CCW and 4 hours of range time with YOUR chosen carry gun. It ain't Ayoob, Farnham or Smith but it shows you are a responsible CCW holder. This is above and beyond the requirements to get your FL CCW BTW.

I help teach ours and just redid the whole lesson plan and take home materials. Did the most comprehensive job I could in the time allowed for the course. We realize that not all the folks can afford the high buck stuff so our Community Policing division thought my suggestion of this was a good help.

Even have an ADA & local Criminal lawyer that donate time for the legal part.

Well said.

Good effort!

Way to go, Terry......

Okay, that was a coffee-through-nose event.

I suggest you do what you're gonna do Scott, and do what you gotta do, then let the chips fall where they may. The goobermint wants only their agents armed and only their agents able to use those arms. The trouble with the agenda is that certain politicians have learned that they can actually cater to what the people really want, as opposed to being bought and paid for by the big boys, and get elected thataway. Hence, the trend towards Castle Domain type laws and laws which restrict the ability of relatives and Al Sharpton to sue in civil courts. Things sometimes seem crazy when you have some places racing to restrict the ability of an average guy to self-defend while at the same time other places race to undo laws which inhibit the genuine practice of same. It all stands to reason though when you see some politicians are employed by the slavers and the already willingly enslaved and some are employed by those who do not wish to go down that road.

If anything this thread illustrates the stark contrast in self defense laws state-to-state. You're also going to get a big difference in how they are interpreted by county and/or municipality. The best thing you can do to stay free is to live in an area where freedom is valued.

T either does a lot of the steering of LE in his community or has people above him that are in tune with listening to their peeps that know. Either way, it's too bad more of us don't live in places where the good guys are really in charge and know wtf they are doing. Stuff like this really puts CCW holders on par with LE who basically get the training for free and it hearkens back to the days when every able-bodied man was expected to take care of himself and his people and to respond when the community needed him to take up arms against a general threat.

Firearms Academy of Seattle offers some inexpensive classes (starting at $50) that cover self defense laws. The two day defensive handgun class is $325.

That is the interesting thing about this blue state. Our gun laws are really quite good and have been getting better. There have been several self defense shootings in Washington in the last year and I do not know of one where the shooter faced any real flack from the legal front.

When talking to the sheriff's office about dogs on our farm attacking animals he was quite clear on advice. He said kill them all. I realize there is a huge difference between dogs and humans but you get his drift.

It must have been about a year ago that a neighbor responded to the barks of his dogs during the dark hours of the night and caught this guy stealing fuel from one of his farm tanks. The guy ran off and he shot him in the ass with bird shot.

Turns out it was this local kid who had been stealing since he was in grade school. I think he was about Trayvon's age. He took only one or two pellets, IIRC and was wandering around in a daze when LE got on-scene. Treated and released. County Attorney charges the local guy with something. A bunch of local farmers and ranchers let it be known that they weren't gonna lay down for one of their own being led off to the hoosegow for defending his own property and they didn't much care what the state's laws on the issue were and they cared even less what the pusssy county attorney thought. The shooter ended up with a suspended sentence or whatever, for like 30 days, meaning after that time his record was to be expunged and it was like it never happened. Only bad thing is that he couldn't shoot a thief in the asss for those thirty days.

Yes sir, I do and although that Sheriff may not have the complete say if you end up having to shoot somebody, it is still a comfort to know you have such a one on your side.

I have the ear of the current Sheriff and the next one that takes office in January as well as at least one District Commander (my daughter) plus the Sgt. in charge of community policing. It also helps that I am a long time NRA RSO, Pistol Instructor and Refuse to be a Victim instructor and work for FREE!

Yes sir, I do and although that Sheriff may not have the complete say if you end up having to shoot somebody, it is still a comfort to know you have such a one on your side. [/quote]

That is why I voted for him even thought he had the blasted "D" next to his name. He is a good man and does a good job.

Mark, my cousin (the one that went missing a few years ago), when he was a little kid of about ten, was shot in the butt by a North Carolina farmer for stealing apples from his orchard. It was just rock salt, though. That was back in the early 1970s, when in most places in the US, most figured a kid deserved it for doing that, and I don't believe any thought was even given to prosecuting the farmer. Today, that would likely turn out very differently.

When I was a kid, a good friend of mine and I were out trick or treating on Halloween. I went home and he stayed out. We lived in an affluent suburb of Kansas City. There was a country club that took up a bunch of room right next to our school and made it difficult to get around. You had to go clear around this thing in order to get to where a lot of our friends lived. Neither his family nor mine were members 'cause back then, in the seventies, this thing was like a thousand dollars a year. So he trespassed across there like he did lots of times but out of nowhere these Caddies that were being used for extra security on Halloween, show up and shoot him as he's running off. He caught a salt pellet in his ankle and showed me where it went in. He never told his parents about it. At least, that's what he told me.

I think afterwards, that the Caddies hired Mas Ayoob to counsel them and mortgaged the Caddyshack just in case this juvenile delinquent tried to soo them or whatever. Then they like, burned some doobs and moved to Australia to avoid prostitution and raise Kangaroos and suchlike. The End.

Sorry. I did not even realize I did that.

Scott, I think that Cheyenne's advice is a good way to go. You can also get good, sound training from the NRA Personal Protection course. There are alternatives to paying the big bucks for a nationally acclaimed trainer...

FWIW, Ayoob teaches up at Marty Hayes' range near Seattle on a regular basis, which would cut travel costs for you some. Keep an eye on his website for upcoming classes. He teaches all over the country and the schedule sometimes changes very abruptly.

Good on you, Terry. Thanks for posting that.

Well you guys now have reviewing Montana gun laws as well as Helena's ordinances.

Dang you guys!

I thought you meant to say boobies. I was imagining women concealing their handguns in there.

I have to admit it is not what I go looking for when I check out my wife's bra.

The fact that he was terminally ill more than likely contributed to his attitude in life. Pick another example.

How do you know Derby isn't terminally ill?

Well, you certainly got me there.

This is some of the funniest schit I have ever read.


Travis

Just for everybody's knowledge. I am in fact a use of force expert. Certificate and all.



Travis

Whitworth,

If you study General Patton and Ron Jeremy you will find I am a combination of the two.

(Since we're playing pretend I thought I'd go for broke.)


Travis

I am terminally ill. We are all terminally ill. Nobody gets out of this life alive.

Doc realized he was dying and there was nothing he could do about it. That's when he really lived. His greatest fear was dying in bed with his boots off which of course he did. There's more to it than that but I'm not writing a book about it.

I was suppose to die at birth but somehow I lived. About 40 I realized I was going to die and there was nothing I could do about it. That's when I really started to live. My greatest fear is to live to 80 or 90 or longer. My goal has always been to get to 70 if possible. I'm five years out.

Once I realized that death happens and any day is a good day to die I never planned on surviving a gun fight if I was in one but rather to take as many bastoids as I could with me before I went down for the count. I'm not suicidal and I am a survivalist; I don't go looking for trouble but if comes my way and there's no way out I'm ready and willing to die.

I don't expect anybody on here to understand me, few people do but it's the way I live and like Doc I'll probably live longer than I want to. Many say I will live into my 80's and 90's, some even into my triple digits. E gads, that's a sentence worse that death.

Thanks for clearing that up Mr. Holiday.


Travis

Don't mess with Derby. I hear he favors an external hammer, shorty, double, scatter gun.

can i be your neighbor mr. rogers?

You are not far off!

Ron up top and Patton below?

I'm going to check with our local Sheriff's department and see if they offer this.

There's a couple (man & wife) that teach a good self-defense course in this area. My sister took it a couple years ago and raved about it - and she's never been a gun-type gal..

Man, that changed after the course.. I wish I had the time/money to take an Ayoob course or similar.. But, alas..............

Doc,

You are correct.

Sometime it is better to arm yourself and stay put then to go out to �defend� you property.

The clearer the situations the better off you are.

Shooting someone over your 52 inch TV may seem like a good Idea but may cost you.

Still I would rather wait armed for the 4-6 min it will take the Police to come than be unarmed.

There is really no good outcome to a shooting�

Snake

Bwahahahaha!

[bleep] yes.


Travis

Ron looks like the Cryptkeeper after somebody fattened him up on some Dairy Queens.

Doc, it isn't matter of how good or useful such classes are. I've been to Kalifornia's POST classes, some of the stuff taught to our elite snipers, and felony units, etc.
What I'm refering to is the difficulty one has in using any of this training under the stresses of a life threatening situation. Even the simplest, most basic stuff is very hard to do at all well.
That's not to say that having the basic understandings and anything else is not worth having. I'm sure the training you mention is well worth getting. But you simply can't teach common sense and the ability to remain cool when under fire in a class room. You can encourage certain atrtitudes like situation awareness, and reinforce certain legal principles. Basic firearms practice and familarization of one's choosen weapon are all good things to do as well.
But one can avoid almost all of the bad things you mention by avoiding using deadly force unless there is a real threat to you and your loved ones. Again, common sense, and a showing that one's heart is in the right place at the time of the shooting is what impresses both juries and cops alike. E

Terry, you are a wonderful example of the true attitudes of our present and former law enforcement people. I have been very fortunate to know many like you. God bless you and yours. E

Doc,

That�s good sound advice. And anyone who takes Farnam�s class usually gets the icing on the cake; Vicki Farnam�she�s just priceless. It�s true that all or none of what you said can happen, but you�d better assume the former instead of counting on the latter.

Some other advice I�d give is to consult an attorney who knows the laws around self defense from a criminal and civil side IN YOUR STATE so you know exactly where you stand. Some states have it better than others; do YOU know the laws of your state? I did this in CA but unfortunately haven�t done it in AR as of yet.

This is why I always tell people to do anything and everything you can possibly do to avoiding shooting someone. What do you have in your home that is a personal possession that is worth killing someone over and putting you and your family through the hell that will ensue? If I was assured that it would expedite a bad guy getting the hell out, I�d help the SOB load my TV and Surround Sound.

Problem being that the bad guy might very well think that killing you is worth the effort to get your possessions. It's pretty dangerous to try to assess the situation for a few seconds to see if he feels that way. If he came in with a knife or gun, chances are he is crazy enough to use it.

Good advice, and building on that...

Having the phone number of the best criminal defense attorney in town in your cell phone is always a good idea. The emergency number, as well as the office number.

I just try, that is all E, thankfully my Daughter & Son have followed my path instead of falling into the US vs THEM mentality. Plus we have a very good Department hell bent on community policing principles instead of the L E O syndrome so common in big population centers.

In all the classes I teach, I stress that lethal force is the FINAL OPTION and only used to protect LIFE & LIMB. This is the premise I base my teaching on and mention it frequently.

Excellent post, Doc!

Telling the LEO's that show up after a deadly force encounter that you are "too upset to talk right now and would like to talk with an attorney before you say anything" is going to be absolutely correct, and is going to protect your rights while giving you an opportunity to calm down, think through what has just happened, and let the system work as it should.

If you are the one who calls the encounter in, all you need to say is that there has been a (shooting, stabbing, beating, etc...) and that there is ____ number of people down and that LE and medics are needed.

You WILL be questioned by Dispatch as to who did the shooting/stabbing, etc., and where the weapon is. The Dispatcher is not trying to implicate you, or get you to implicate yourself, they are trying to get the best info they can so the responding LEOs have an idea who/where the threat is/may be. Granted, that Dispatch recording can be used later in a legal proceeding, but it cannot be used to impeach your statement if you DO NOT give a statement before talking with your attorney.

If you feel you must give the responding LEO's a statement, make it as generic as possible, i.e. " the bad guy did this, and I defended myself/that person against him". END OF STORY. At that point, you should refer again to being too upset (you will be, trust me!) to talk and you need to consult with your attorney.

I cannot recommend retaining an attorney for a possible deadly force encounter. That fact alone presents the situation that you were anticipating and planning on using deadly force against another and were setting up the "plan". On the other hand, finding out who the best criminal defense attorney in your area would be a GREAT thing to have in case you should need one.

As to the expense, a personal liability insurance rider on a homeowners policy for say, $1 Million only costs less than $150.00/year. That covers ANY action you may take, not just a shooting, and should cover you and your dependents/significant other. Most homeowner's policies already cover around $300K personal liability.

Not preparing yourself for the full reality of the legal aftermath of a deadly force encounter is just as bad as not preparing with a means of self defense to begin with. You wouldn't buy a gun and no bullets, would you?

Ed

Which is why you arm yourself,
and
Call 911
And
Stay put

If the thief comes after you the situation is clearer then if you go after him.

Look at the Zimmerman case


Snake

Those responding officers, at least those I know/work with/respect, also understand that taking a statement immediately after such an incident is not the best time/place to do so.

An individual is not going to provide a clear and complete picture of the incident minutes, or even a few hours, after his ordeal.

George

I thought "given the opportunity" went without saying...apparently I was wrong.

well im just a por ignernt Gorgia hillbilly what aint got nuff mony to eat must les wast on fanci stuf like shotin leasons.but i no one thang and thts ifen sombody comes in my shak in the midle of da nite with a gun an a nife he shore aint leavin on foot he be leven on his bac side.an sam thang ifen wees out on tahm thar strets he gon be daed ifin him troses a gun an nife out on me an min an i grab my gun fastests than him can shot me.afte that i jest shuted up an lawerd up an let them polices figer it al out by thaes selvs

When they ask, offer to complete a written statement.....

George

Indeed, when poleece even native to his area read it, I think they'll be convinced that Obama came to the rescue and shot the intruder.

You mean in illiterate yokel drawl?

That's because your the department Grandpa and everybody had better listen to Grandpa if they know what's good for them.

Kevin I certainly agree with avoidance being the preferrable option but struggle with the "worth killing someone over" arguement. I've taken both Ayoob's class (twice) and Farnum's when he was first starting out in the late 70's. The problem with the "worth" discussion is that it's a strawdog with unlimited options to argue-----the answer is of course that no tangible THING is worth a human life---however the right to private property supercedes the sanctity of life (at least a few million deceased U.S. veterans gave their lives for it and took a few more million lives to provide and protect the unobstructed right to private property). The same "worth" arguement could be made for personal violation/pain/rape/etc. What is a human life worth? It's an unwinnable arguement. The "what ifs" are infinite. When you modify the question by taking the "killing someone" out of it and limit to "what's going through the potential legal issues worth?" there again are almost too many variables and options to consider to make a rational-in-the-heat-of-the-moment-decision. Cooper addressed this somewhere---I don't remember the details other than his conclusion was that human dignity supercedes the life of the attacker and whatever legal repercussions result.

JMO, of course I could be wrong.

Doc,

I am not in a position to argue with your post, but I believe there are many intangibles that are being overlooked. I will agree that extensive (and expensive) training would benefit a person in a self defense situation. It would be illogical to argue that more training, practice, knowledge, experience, etc. is not worthwhile.

With that said, I am also of the opinion that there are many people who have had no formal training in such matters but who would fare better in a self defense scenario than others who might have had a lot of training.

Despite PA often being thought of as a typical eastern U.S./Blue State, outside of the cities there are a lot of gun owners, and most know how to use them. If I were a betting man, my money would be on the person who has been shooting guns since before she/he can remember, maybe was in the service, hunts and shoots regularly, has common sense, is well-grounded generally, and will do whatever it takes to protect their loved ones versus some city slicker mall-ninja that just bought a new "nine", complete with all of the tacticool gear, and flew out to Ayoob's training facility for a week.

In my humble opinion, I believe these other intangibles may be more important than formal training that lasts for only a few weeks. Of course, combining both would be ideal.

ETA:
The mall-ninja reference does not apply to anyone who posted on this thread, or, for the most part, to anyone who is a member of the Campfire.

Excellent post. I don't think you are wrong.

After a good night's sleep---my thinking may still be cloudy but perhaps my words will be more cogent. What I was hamhandedly attempting to say is that I struggle with the "worth" issue. A few million veterans died, not for my TV and Surround Sound, but for my right to own them. If I voluntarily give up that right that they died for just to avoid putting myself and family thru emotional, legal and financial turmoil----I'm doing their sacrifice a misjustice IMO.

Does that mean that I can shoot a home invader in the back as he's leaving with my TV? Legally no, the courts would consider that murder---however, it's only illegal, not immoral----we often can't enforce morality due to the price of legality. Justice (morality) and legality are only coincidentally the same. I'm sure that I'm preaching to the choir with that however.

JMO, YMMV.

I understand where gmoats is coming from. I would rather give someone my TV than shoot them...it's value/worth is not nearly as valuable as another person's life to me or having to live with taking someone else's life (even if for the most part they are a useless human being). However, if they can "take" my TV against my will, what will stop them from taking anything else...doing harm to my family....etc.

I agree with the "right" that gmoats mentions...and think that defending property it is the "right" thing to do. By defending property it protects more than that specific piece of property...it protects our way of life and offers protection against the thief stealing from others.

First - VERY good post.

Philosophically you�re absolutely right, but that doesn�t change the fact that you risk having to sell everything you own to defend yourself in both civil and criminal court after the shooting.

But I know people who are absolutely infuriated at the thought of anyone unlawfully taking something from them. These are the people I worry about (I worry because some are my friends). They are firm believers in the philosophy that the right to property supersedes the right to life and they�re willing to defend their property with lethal force. Whether our legal system views property as superseding the right to life doesn�t matter to me. I hold life to be more sanctified, and that�s my philosophy�and it�s the only one I personally care about. What�s more, I�m not willing to place everything that not only I own, but everything owned by my entire family at risk over something as stupid as property. My family comes first, every time. That also means that if there is any threat to my family, I will take action immediately; even if it means risking all I own.

ETA � But I�m glad you brought this subject and distinction up; that�s a very good issue for consideration�VERY good post my friend.

gmoats,

I think you did an excellent job of conveying your meaning in your first post. My response to that post was not really for you, because CLEARLY you �get it�, but for others who may not have had as much education or training on the subject.

One thing John Farnam always preached. The bad guy in question may be one who could GREATLY BENEFIT from being shot, and possibly killed. But that doesn�t mean YOU have to be the one to provide that benefit.

Again, thanks for bringing the subject up. One of the things that I always loved about Star Trek (where the hell is he going with THIS) was the moral dilemma�s they brought about in clever ways. Your topic is clearly one of those moral dilemmas we should be investigating.

Excellent post.

You have an excellent point. It seems the deadliest people in the military and I'm thinking infantry here were/are the hillbilly/redneck back woods hunter.

A number of the last posts bring up an interesting point.

Self defense is based on man's law and perception of justice not on natural law which looks at self defense in a wholly different light.

CC... there's no question that there are huge numbers/kinds of "intangibles" that will affect the outcome of a citizen's righteous use of deadly force. But frankly, my OP and the bulk of the training people like Ayoob and Farnam do is not about how to conduct yourself in a gunfight, but how to survive the legal, ethical, and psychological aftermath. Yes, intangibles still apply here, but knowing the law and knowing criminal procedure (both from the police and the prosecutor perspective) are things you simply aren't going to "know how to do" instinctively. The only way to be prepared for these things is through training and/or personal research.

Massad Ayoob advises thus: "Know from whence the attack will come, and have a proven defense in place to meet it." This might apply to the actual UoDF scenario a citizen gets caught up in sometimes, but often you have to fight the fight you've got, not the fight you want (as our Mackay Sagebrush says). It's in the legal aftermath that Ayoob's advice and training have been proven time and again to be beyond price.

Again, as TLEE points out, there are cheaper alternative training sources. I can't say enough good things about the NRA's Personal Protection course. It is simply outstanding, and is a bare minimum training level for the armed citizen IMHO. Going thru a local Citizen's Academy is also a great way to get good, documentable trainig.

KG... this is the mindset, I believe, of many of the internet chest-thumpers I wanted to address in the OP. Many of the folks who believe as your "friends" do, i.e., that they have the right to use deadly force to defend their property, have not even begun to look at the real legal justifications for UoDF. Nonetheless, they believe what they believe, and their justification for believing it is tautological: "I believe I can shoot a man in defense of my property because I believe it."

Frankly, I don't worry about these people, for two reasons: first, I'm unlikely to be shot by them myself because I don't steal other people's stuff; and second, in my experience people with this sort of mindset are too stubborn to be educated. If/when one of these guys commits an unjustifiable homicide and goes to prison, it's entirely on his own head. Opportunities to learn the truth have been presented to all of these people many times and they have rejected the truth.

Doc,

I think this has been a great thread and I thank you for starting it


Snake

Doc, I also highly recommend the Refuse to be a Victim course offered by the NRA. It is about awareness and awareness of scams & "stranger danger" that addresses both children and us older farts, alternatives to firearms and most important MINDSET, knowing what YOU are willing to do before you need to.

It was originally geared at women but has now been expanded to both genders.

This is a cut a paste from a PM I sent detailing my thoughts and decisions on carry.


I take my carry seriously. I got my first permit in Oregon after five or more years of soul searching and in depth thought. Then I studied everything I could find on Oregon's laws pertaining to carry and self defense including cases where a bad guy was shot and the outcome for the good guy. I learned a lot. Upon moving to Washington I got my permit and started the whole process of study again and had a couple of years to study as I was spending every other night in Canada and thus could not carry and I was saving for a carry weapon because I had sold my Oregon gun.

I have decided several things in my time of study of when to draw and when not to draw. If someone is stealing my car they are going to get away with it. I bought it for a thousand cash and it is no where near taking a life or even threatening to take a life.

But If I awake to find someone inside my house, a huge 420 square foot two room cabin he had better be explaining himself in about three seconds. There is not enough room to run and hide in my house. grin However, I really do not see a big chance of that happening. I really do not own much worth stealing and even though my wife and I make up about 20% of the conservative voters in my county I do my best to not piss off the people around me. The fact is since there is no lock of any kind on my front door I have a better chance of finding a bear or a cougar in my home than a bad guy.

I carry whenever I leave the farm. Not because of fear but because I feel that a right not used is a right lost and since I live in a community filled with sheepole, most of whom would wet themselves if the knew there was a gun in their midst, I feel that it is almost a responsibility to carry just as I and responsible to protect my sheep and chickens on the farm. I have no delusions of being a knight even in tarnish armor as I feel the odds of my ever needing to draw my 1911 are somewhere between almost none and a lot less than almost none.

But I would be foolish to not be ready and to not have thought out different scenarios and consequences. If I am in a restaurant and someone were to rob it or come in trying to harm another person what is the right thing to do. If I was in the bank and it was robbed, a subject near to my heart with a son in law in prison for robbing banks, what would be the right thing to do.

I feel everyone who makes the choice to carry is obligated to study the laws, study the consequences of carrying and spent time in thought on what he should or should not do in every situation he can think of.

In my opinion there are many times when a life in not in eminent danger the best thing I could do is nothing.

I have looked up the books on this subject and will start buying them from Amazon as I get extra money and read them.

Terry... I haven't taken that one, but I've heard about it. It's a good concept and one that I think bears taking whether you're a man or a woman.

Scott, good post. PM sent.

They are inexpensive also Doc, the suggested student price is $25.00 per. The "kits" cost the instructor $4.00 each and if he (like I do) teaches it for an LE agency as a volunteer they are free 20 at a time. Now if you have to rent a room or hall that would naturally increase the cost. I also will do it free for businesses and community organisations as a S.O. volunteer if they provide the location and refreshments.

I spent a little over $40.00 bucks for my props & demo items but was given some by local shops. YMMV

Photobucket is down right now or I would take a pic of the simple items used by me.

Well said, and I agree with this premise as well as that of Kevin Gibson that I would never take a life over mere property. Even the life of a druggie or the most hardened gang member of any race can be reclaimed and redeemed by the power of God and it is not up to me to decide when or if a person is no longer redeemable. What IS up to me, is the protection of the wife and family that God blessed me with and it is for them and other innocents that I carry - with great care and much forthought. Also, with the most sincere hope that I will never have need of my sideram. I am no "knight wannabe" either.

MARK

OK, guys. Just a footnote from a guy that bagged and talked to all sorts of folks who have hit and like to hit occupied homes.
First of all, most burglars are interested in getting something they can turn into money easily. That usually means cash or guns. That's why they hit unoccupied homes.
The other kind, the kind that hit occupied homes, tend to be a much different breed. First of all, they know you are home. Second, they have a plan and the means to carry that plan out if you discover them. Often they are armed with something or at least prepare the home for a quick exit.
So, if he stands his ground when discovered, you are probably in for a fight.
You might want to keep that in mind.
The other thing I learned that a surprising number of them will not do what they are told at gun point. So you need to be prepared for that.
The last guy i pointed a gun at was a guy that came to my door at 11:00 PM and said he was sick and needed an ambulance. In good light, so I could see his hands, and with a 9mm in my waistband, I opened the door. When I wouldn't allow him in, he tried to push it. When I pointed the gun at his foot, telling him to remove it from my doorway, or I'd blow it off, he refused. It was only when I smiled and said I would be happy to prove my point, did he back off.
That was very close.
BTW, he was picked up by the cops shortly thereafter. He was a drug addict, going through withdrawals. He really was sick. But he had a different plan than what he claimed. E

That's a good point about a specific situation. If the lights are all out, and someone is quietly jimmying the door, maybe he knows you're home, maybe not. So some chance he will run when confronted. But if the lights & TV are on, when he kicks in the door, he's likely ready to fight and you may well have to shoot right now

Would I shoot someone over possessions? no, probably not...but remember the old adage about letting people get close to you. Ayoob I know teaches officers that a man with a knife 15 feet away can likely charge, and reach you before you can draw and fire. The Mythbusters TV show, FWIW a few months ago, tested that theory themselves, and demonstrated just that same scenario.

You might have a gun on a guy 10 feet away, and maybe he'll retreat - or maybe he'll attack anyway. You're in a dangerous situation.

Terry, back around 1980 I took that course from the NRA, called something else back then, I guess (defensive handgun, I believe). It was $20.00 per hour lesson. My instructor was a retired deputy who looked a good bit like Bill Jordan. He took me from never having fired a handgun to being pretty darn good with a double action revolver.

The RTBAV course does not involve handguns or shooting as a rule, that is an advanced course of it's own. The RTBAV is basic awareness and things you can do to avoid confrontations and touches on less than lethal methods of defense. Also things to do around the home to make it less attractive to crooks as well as at work & school.

Oh, I never took that one. Might be worth looking into.

You don't have to live in "rural Texas" to avoid most of #4 -- just Texas.

It's not just Ayoob.

A number of years ago a FTU officer in SoCal (IIRC, it was LAPD) named Dennis Tueller was talking to some guys about the "21-foot rule". Basically, they and most agencies were training their cops to consider anyone inside 21 feet (7 yards) as a potential contact-weapon threat in any police confrontation. Dennis told me at a conference a few years back that he did some "thinking out loud" about how valid that distance was.

So he and the other instructors set up an experiment: one instructor would run, and the other one would draw his pistol and fire a round (not at his buddy, obviously) to see how dangerous 21 feet actually was. The guy drawing and firing was not allowed to start his draw stroke until he saw the runner start toward him.

What they found was an adult male of average cop physical condition could close to contact-weapon distance in about 1.5 seconds. This wasn't good, as the average cop can't draw his sidearm from a retention holster in much under 2.5 seconds, and many cops in my experience are doing well to draw and fire in under 3 seconds.

The "Tueller Drill" has become justifiably famous as a demonstration of the distances and times that may be involved in a deadly force situation where the aggressor/attacker has a contact weapon. LEA's all over the country use this as part of their UoDF training.

Good points. Hard for many to understand that a BG at 10 ft. or less can be a real threat even with a gun ttained on him. E

Yeah. Ten feet is maybe livable, but inside of 6 feet a determined attacker can put a knife in your heart in about a quarter of a second.

If your reaction time is average, say 0.3 seconds, you'll be toast.

The last training session I was at the distance of the Tueller Drill was extended to 30' now because of the security holsters now in use.

Man, ain't that the truth!!

and unless your shot(s) "stops" him instantly, he may do it anyway...

That's interesting because a Grizzly can cover that distance even faster for those who think they can draw and shot a Griz dead.

Most of us are not natural born killers which is something to consider in self defense. Most of us will try and give the BG a fair chance to surrender.

I know that LEO are required to give the BG a fair chance to surrender but are civilians required to do that too?

Derby,

I know you enjoy using pretend to form thoughts, but what you wrote here is inaccurate.

There is no need by anyone to give somebody a "fair chance". "Fair chance" isn't used in court. i.e. "Officer, did you give him a fair chance?"

All that matters is:

1.)Means

2.)Intent

3.)Opportunity.

So, If I have a shotgun in my hand while bird hunting, and an officer approaches me, do I have the means, intent, and opportunity to kill that officer? Yes, I have the means. Yes, I have the opportunity. But no, I do not have the intent.

Another example:

I have a rock in my hand. Officer approaches me and asks how my day is going. I raise my hand and say "die [bleep], cocksuckin' pig [bleep]" as I begin to attempt my finest fast ball in his direction. The officer at that time can draw, and put three into my chest because the court will acknowledge I had means, intent, and opportunity to cause death, or severe bodily harm.

Got it?


Travis

Well put, sir.

Everything you say is true. But the fact of the matter is most of us will not just up and kill someone. We will attempt to reason with them. That's human nature for most of us. Only natural born killers will just up and kill someone with out saying anything.

I'm not talking about a court defense I'm talking about a killer instinct.

You're a puzzy. Got it. Thanks.


Travis

If I would feel in danger, my reaction time, as far as if I should react, would be .000 seconds. You should have thought this out way before the time comes. No time for talking.
STAY READY

Actually, most of us won't. It's not human nature, it's American culture. Human nature is to protect itself, at whatever the cost. Darwin candidates "attempt to reason" with a BG trying to commit an assault on them. Survivors don't.

LEO's are not required to give ANYONE a "fair chance". If someone commits an act of violence and jeopardizes the life of another, they just volunteered to get shot, Tasered, OC'ed, and/or thumped on, whichever is appropriate.

"Fair" is a word we use to punish our children and our children use to punish us. It has ZERO place in combat.

Everyone is a natural born killer. The circumstances just have to be right for that switch to be flipped.

If you didn't have that ability in your genetics, your line would have died out long ago.

Doc,

I went through one of then Sgt. Teuller's classes long, long ago and learned that the reason he and his fellow officers ran the simulations was because one of his troops shot and killed a knife-wielding man in SLC and the D.A. was bowing to public pressure and was going to charge the officer with homicide. So, Sgt. Teuller and his other shiftmates taped the results of their findings and thus, the "Teuller Drill" was born.
He is a good man and a great supervisor.

Ed

Well now there you got me it's not human nature it's American culture which doesn't operate according to nature's law.

Nature's law says if someone is threatening life, liberty, and property one should just shoot them and be done with. American culture says otherwise. I stand corrected.

Like someone's sig line says:
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck."

You should be used to this by now.


Travis

LMAO ROTF

Sorry, but I chose to defend my life and those I love. Nothing is worse letting a bad bad guy take your life or the life of someone you love. I would deal with the law with as much vigor as humanly possible. The laws don't scare me as much as seeing my wife or child or even myself be a victim to some demon who has chosen to hurt me or mine.

AMEN!!

I'm no expert on the subject, but as a lawyer, I try to stay in touch with the issues.

On this point, I saw a TV show a few years ago which discussed this one -- and the fact that in many prisons, inmates actually practice charging a "target" individual to see if they can beat a draw.

The TV show demonstrated this, with real inmates, hardened criminals. As I recall, the distance was about 15-20 feet. The inmates' technique was to do a quick judo-like somersault to get below the line of sight, then come up to grab or knife the target.

It worked ten out of ten times.

Ed: that's not the story Dennis told me when we discussed it, IIRC, but it was a few years ago and there was a lot of other stuff going on in that session. I don't doubt your report a bit. Sgt. Tueller is that kind of guy.

Hey, stop that Chitt. I see another post like that Dr Kratz is gonna have to redo my stitches.

I ROR GI.

Hello
To the Original Poster's reply, It all depend's on where you Live... and I am Very Proud to be from a State that is first and foremost Gun Friendly, and has set forth a Self defense law where we are no Longer Prey or an easy Mark to criminals. In The state of Tennessee you do Not have to have a conseal carry permit. It is Legal for you to own and Posess a handgun here without any Kind of hand gun Permit so long as it is not carried consealed or Loaded in your Vehicle when Traveling. This Means you can Purchase a hand gun Privately from any other Tennessee state person without Registering it through our Nashville handgun License department. Tennessee also has the Stand Your Ground law set forth. This allow's a person to protect his Life if Threatened up to and including Lethal Force. Below is how our state set forth the self Protection Law's and if lethal force has to be used to protect one's life, We also have law's to protect us as to Family Member's trying to sue us for the loss of one of their Family members. No special courses needed in the state of Tennessee if you come looking for Trouble, chances are your outcome will Not be Good for you... When you take our Tennessee handgun carry class they tell us it is totally Legal and Justified to protect your self and family if your life is Threatened. I shoot a Lot at Least Three times a week at my local Range with my Carry and Target revolver's at distances from 25 Yards out to a Hundred yards and do very well with my Group's when doing so. It would not be a good idea for a bad guy to try to invade my Home, car or Threaten my self , my wife or my Kids. TheGeneral.


Tennessee also has a �Stand Your Ground� law. The Tennessee Legislature passed a version of such law in 2007. Part 1 of this column discussed the creation and passage of the law. Part 2 takes a look at the language and operation of the law.


Q. What exactly does Tennessee�s Stand Your Ground law say and mean?

First, the words �stand your ground� do not actually appear in the law, which is simply titled �Self-defense� as it appears at Tennessee Code Annotated section 39-11-611.


Until the passage of Tennessee�s �Stand Your Ground� law in 2007, state law historically required that persons who were legally at home must not use deadly force on an illegal intruder if he or she could safely retreat.


As of 2007, Tennessee�s �Self-defense� law now expressly states as follows:
�A person who is not engaged in unlawful activity, and
�Who is in a place where the person has a right to be,
�Legally has no duty to retreat before threatening or using force against another person

�When and to the degree the person reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.�

Q. Does the law have a special provision in the case of forced entry into a residence, business, dwelling or vehicle?

Yes. Tennessee�s �Stand Your Ground� law also says:

�An occupant of a residence, business, dwelling, or vehicle is legally protected

�And is allowed to use force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury

�Against another person who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence, business, dwelling or vehicle �When the person using defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.


The law states that the person who is using defensive force in such a situation �is presumed to have held a reasonable belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury.�


The law also expands the physical areas where the law applies:
�The term �business� includes the interior and exterior of the business.
�The term �dwelling� means a building or conveyance of any kind that is designed for an capable of use by people, such as an �RV� (recreational vehicle used for camping or travel lodging), and any attached porch to a building or conveyance.
�The term �residence� also includes any dwelling, building or other structure within the yard, or �curtilage� of the residence. ("Curtilage" means �the area surrounding a dwelling that is necessary, convenient and habitually used for family purposes and for those activities associated with the sanctity of a person's home.�)


IMPORTANT NOTE: The law does NOT allow defensive force to be used in several key situations:
�Against a person who has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, business, residence, or vehicle; or
�Against a person who is attempting to remove his or her child or grandchild, or who is attempting to remove a child for whom he or she has lawful custody or guardianship; or
�Against a law enforcement officer who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, business, residence, or vehicle in the performance of the officer's official duties.

Gen'l Stuart... with all due respect for your fine collection of pistolas, and your knowledge of the S&W revolver in a historical context, I must submit that you missed the point of the OP.

Even with enlightened laws being in effect, the following statements (quoted from my OP) are far more likely than otherwise:



Sorry, but that's the reality. Prepare for it.

Hello Doc
All do respect here, I did not miss any of the Point, and again I say it depend's on where you live, and who is Handling the situation. We do not have any Walker Texas Ranger's here in Knoxville. The city cop's know the law as well as us citizens. The fact of the matter is, they will respond, you will be questioned, they have an Investigation to complete. You "May" or May Not be asked to go down town for further investigation, by city detectives Then once they determine that the defense move was justified, you will be Released. I have seen it several times in the past with other's that protect them self's, or property from Hoodlum's or Thieves here in Knoxville to Only lead to No charges were Placed upon the shooter. Case closed, no follow up's, have a nice day and Thank's for riding the city of crime, and Tax Payer Trash that cost's everyone else here their hard earned dollars... I also shoot with Several Policemen here and have asked their opinion on this type of ordeal, and they all coincide the same that if your Life is Threatened, you certainly have the right to protect your self or family member's without any legal repercussions there of...What May be Standard shooting self defense Protocal in Texas, sure aint the way that it is Handled in Tennessee, Nor the out come of it... TheGeneral

All due respect, GeneralS, and thanks for your reply... but I expect you live in a somewhat sheltered situation. Reality for most folks is a lot harder than your viewpoint, and if I may be so bold, I expect it'd be a lot harder for YOU should you have to deal with John Law if'n you actually shot someboy.

I

Having a fine gun collection don't translate across the pond to where folks get shot and killed on a regular basis.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. Words to live by. Boy Scouts and all that.

Hello DocRocket
Having a Fine Gun collection has "Nothing to do with Tennessee's self defense Law's period" and I sure don't live a Sheltered life as you have Labeled me to have. After 26 Pages of responses it is clear to see " YOU Sir, " are the one that lives a sheltered life Believing that Texas self defense Law's apply to everyone in other area's of the United States... Well, I am Here to correct you that your Theory Does Not apply to anyone in the State of Tennessee and to prove my Point, here is Three justified self defense cases where the Shooter walked and No Charge's were placed, Nor were the families awarded any cases to sue the shooter of said cases, as we are protected from such frivolous law suite's that defend the shooter and his family member's in self defense cases, both in a criminal court and civil law suite court's. Our crime Rate had hit an all time low since Tennessee changed the self defense law's in 2007 as I out lined in one of my Previous responses, but evidently you did not get that Fact either ? I am done arguing with you about it as it is very Plain to see, that I live in a State where you are free to use deadly force without any legal repercussions, so here your Boy Scout Theory of "Be Prepared" Certainly fall's on Deaf Ear's & show's No merit and I Base my Theories on Fact Not assumptions. . Cheer's, TheGeneral.



NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) � Metro Nashville Police are investigating a shooting that occurred as a man and his nephew struggled inside a home.

Police said Friday that no charges have been filed in the death of 55-year-old James Leon Ridley, Jr., who died after being shot by 31-year-old Leondra Ridley.

Police said the younger man was called Thursday night by other family members who said James Ridley showed up drunk and violent. When Leondra Ridley arrived, a woman and her children, ages 4, 6 and 7, were hiding in a closet in fear of James Ridley.

Police said Leondra Ridley told them he shot his uncle in self-defense. Police said the younger man has a valid pistol permit, remained at the scene and cooperated with detectives.

The victim was shot once in the chest.

� 2012, The Associated Press.





LOUDON � A Loudon County jury late this afternoon found Norman Whitton not guilty of second-degree murder.

The 71-year-old was charged in Loudon County Criminal Court in connection with the shooting death of 74-year-old Larry Butcher on April 15, 2010 in Tellico Village, a retirement village where both men resided.

Whitton told Loudon County Sheriff's investigators at the time of the incident he was driving on Toqua Road when he honked his horn at Butcher, who was driving a golf cart.

According to Whitton, Butcher swung his golf cart around to the side of Whitton's stopped car, jumped off, reached through the open window and choked Whitton before Whitton pulled his .38-caliber handgun and shot him.


Jurors returned the verdict after deliberating about two hours. Neither family wished to comment and both sat quietly on either side of the courtroom waiting afterward for the jury to leave the building.

The defense chose not to present witnesses today and rested its case after the state rested its case against Whitton.Butcher died from a single gunshot wound to the chest, a forensic pathologist testified.

In his closing argument, Nichols said people honk their car horns all the time but do not expect to be attacked.

"You have to ask yourself, what would I do if someone stuck their hands through my window?"

Nichols said all the evidence showed Butcher was intoxicated, and because the trajectory of the bullet was down, it showed he was leaning into the window.

Regarding self-defense, Nichols said the question jurors had to consider was whether it was reasonable to believe Whitton feared for his life.


"There is a presumption if someone attacks you in your car or house, you are in fear for your life," he said.

Nichols said state law dictates that evidence is produced of self-defense, the burden is on the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt Norman Whitton did not act in self-defense.



The jury got the case shortly before 4 p.m., and began deliberating.

More details as they develop online and in the Thursday News Sentinel.

� 2012, Knoxville News Sentinel Co.


Police have to knock on wood just to talk about it.

Now they're holding their breath.

Knoxville logged its lowest homicide rate in a decade last year - 17 killings in a city that typically sees 20-25 per year. Police closed all but three of those cases. They have worked two killings so far since the new year: a stabbing blamed as the result of a husband-wife argument and Saturday's fatal shooting in North Knoxville.

"Other than hard work and the grace of God, we don't really have an explanation," said Knoxville Police Department Lt. Doug Stiles, commander of the Violent Crimes Unit. "We can target some crimes. If we get complaints from a community, we can focus on drug-dealing all day long, for example. But murder's so unpredictable that no matter how good you are, you can't really prevent it."

Outside the city limits, Knox County Sheriff's Office investigators logged a few more violent deaths than usual last year - 11 killings in a county that typically averages about a half-dozen - but closed every case.
A single case accounted for three of those deaths, and another accounted for two.

The county's bloodiest case in years happened during a home break-in July 24 on Highland Circle in South Knox County when authorities say Ronald H. Carter III, a 20-year-old Marine awaiting discharge, and Benjamin Keith Fowler, a 34-year-old felon, blasted their way inside and killed Robert Sanders Doyal, 31, and Judy Adams, 63. The homeowner, 61-year-old Larry Doyal, shot back, killing Carter and wounding Fowler. Doyal wasn't charged.



Another break-in accounted for two more deaths when Douglas Jordan III, 20, told deputies he shot Jimmy Cannon, 39, and Adam Peiffer, 25, after he came home June 27 to his trailer on Love Lane and caught them stuffing pillowcases with his belongings. Prosecutors filed no charges in that case.


That's a total of 11 killings with only eight crime-scenes.

"So it's still pretty much along the usual pattern," said KCSO Capt. Clyde Cowan, commander of the Major Crimes Unit. "In most cases, the victim and suspect either knew each other somehow or were related."

City and county numbers fit with the national trend. Statistics show violent crime across the country remains at lows not seen since the 1960s, even as the economy still sputters to emerge from a lingering recession.

"It isn't just homicide," said Kenna Quinet, a criminal justice professor at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis. "Almost everything is at an all-time low. We don't assault, burgle, rob or anything else at the levels of 20 years ago. Unemployment has never consistently been a good predictor of crime. If you or I become unemployed tomorrow, we're not going to turn to a life of crime. We'd find a way to adjust and get by.

"Our population is aging, and that may explain some of the crime decline. Some of it may be the relatively short-term effects of mass incarceration, but those effects could go away when people come out of prison."

Not everyone takes comfort in the numbers. Some residents still believe crimes are up. City Councilman Nick Pavlis demanded an answer last year from police after a string of home robberies that drew attention in South Knoxville, although KPD statistics suggested the city might be safer than ever.

Police blame the media.

"What sells is sensation," said KPD Deputy Chief Gary Price, commander of the Criminal Investigation Division. "We did have some dramatic crimes last year, and they got exceptional coverage."

Some of the most headline-grabbing cases included the April 19 shooting at Parkwest Medical Center in West Knoxville, when Abdo Ibssa, a mentally-ill store owner, opened fire with a stolen pistol outside the hospital. The shots killed Rachel Wattenbarger, 40, and wounded two other people.

Police say that's one of the few cases last year of a victim and killer who apparently had never met before. Others included DaChanna Dotson, a 17-year-old Austin-East High School student hit by a stray bullet June 9 as she carried her baby nephew to safety on Porter Avenue; and Davida Nicholson, a 46-year-old former Anderson County corrections officer shot three days before Christmas during what police called a botched holdup outside the TVA Credit Union on Wilson Road.

Experts say the media are less to blame for perceptions than the public hunger for crime news.

"Our interest in crime is peaking at the same time that crime is at its lowest levels in our lifetime," said Quinet, the criminal justice professor. "It's the same reason you stop and rubberneck at an accident scene. Some people are just fascinated by violence and by the ultimate darkness in other human beings."

Not every case amounted to murder charges. Private citizens fired and killed four times in self-defense last year - three of those cases in South Knox County and one in South Knoxville, when Jamie Franklin, 21, shot a robber struggling with her husband, Jonathan, during a break-in Nov. 22 at their home on Colonial Drive, No charges were filed.

Police also filed no charges when Dennis Audley Spivey, 49, died after a fight June 14 at his nephew's home on Caldwell Avenue in North Knoxville.

Officers killed two people in self-defense last year - Robert "Bob" Kelly, 56, who died in a gunfight Feb. 24 with KCSO deputies outside his home on Lone Star Way, and Chesney, the S&S robber, who fired at KPD officers from under a bedspread Sept. 3 as they searched for him inside an apartment in the Walter P. Taylor Homes housing project. Internal reviews found both those shootings justified

I believe that Doc's point is to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. One of your citations involves a jury acquitting someone, which means the shooter went to trial.

Prezackly.

If you live in a metropolitan area and kill someone with a firearm, be prepared to be treated like a common criminal unless you are politically "well connected" and/or have a lot of money. Do not rely on "friends" in law enforcement to help you either, they probably won't. Say nothing and get the best lawyer you can't afford.

Excellent advice there.. Good post.

timbo... it ain't just in metro areas.

I have a good friend who works as a detective in a rural Indiana county. He's as staunch a 2nd-Amendment man as I am, and runs a gun store and shooting range as well.

But he told me a couple years ago that it is pretty much standard investigating procedure across this country for police to treat EVERY homicide, including firearms homicides, as a murder investigation. He told me that even if the shooter was someone he knows and trusts as much as he does me, he'd still detain me, cuff me, take me in to the station for questioning and probably spend a night at least in a cell while he and his crime scene team went over the scene with a fine-toothed comb.

Now, if that's my friend's take on it in rural Indiana, you have to expect that this is a very real possible outcome ANYWHERE in America.

As I said in the OP, just because YOU think you're a Good Guy doesn't mean you're likely to be treated as such.

Some friend!

Yea Doc, I hear what you say and cops are cops. The difference is most larger cities have DA's controlled by liberal politicians, and their idea of showing how tough they are on crime is to prosecute someone with a clean record that defended them self with a firearm. They don't even care if they win, because between bail and lawyer fees you'll be out around $20,000.00 no matter the outcome. Still, better judged by twelve than carried by six.

That about sums up the situation.

Except if you have to actually go to trial on a Manslaughter or Murder charge, your legal fees will be closer to $100K than $20K. Much depends on the facts of the case, especially how well you initially tell your side of it. Also, much of your costs will be related to what experts you have to hire in order to make your defense. Ballistics experts are $100 to $300 per hour. God forbid that you need a medical doctor to work your case AND testify at trial. While a lawyer around here will bill $225-$250 per hour, I've seen physicians bill $600/hr. Seriously.

Anyway, as much as I told myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread, let me just offer up this:

1. I have not taken any of the so-called "high end" self-defense courses. However...

2. I have spoken directly to friends that have taken these courses. They report that the practical gun training is very good--better than what you get in a "typical" course, but NOT better to the point that it justifies the expense.

3. What makes "high end" courses so expensive (in part) is the claimed "expertise" in preparing yourself legally for a self-defense shooting and what to do after such a shooting. Unfortunately, these "high end" classes seem to be rather hit-and-miss as to how accurate/useful the information is. One friend of mine (an attorney) took an Ayoob class and came back shaking his head. He said "I paid extra to get war stories and bad legal advice." Another friend (also an attorney) went to Front Sight for a week and came back very happy with the gun training, but very concerned about the legal advice. For example, the course had each student write a letter to himself (and mail it) explaining why he would to defend himself with deadly force if necessary. The instructor said it was to later use in court if you ever got charged after a self-defense shooting because it would explain your intent prior to the shooting. But, such a letter is inadmissible as self-serving hearsay in my home state. My friend is a criminal defense attorney and has defended murder cases--he's well-versed in evidence and criminal procedure. The letter is useless in a courtroom.

3. If you are worried about legal consequences of a self-defense shooting, consult with an experienced criminal defense lawyer licensed in your state. The lawyer will give you the best preparation as to how to best position yourself, legally, for a self-defense shooting.

4. Again, "high-end" courses are fine. Take them if you can afford them, but get your legal advice from somebody who is licensed to give legal advice. (Unless your high-end instructor agrees to serve your prison sentence for you if it turns out he's wrong...)

Carry on!

I took the NRA course (Defensive Handgun) around 1980. Twenty hours or so of range time, one-on-one with the instructor (i.e., I was the only student), at $20.00 per hour. Instructor was a retired Deputy Sheriff. No mention was made of any legal considerations if you have to defend yourself, but that information can be acquired for free to anyone who wants to know.

I like the NRA classes. A lot of bang for the buck.

And I agree: Quality information doesn't have to be bought. Just make sure it is what it purports to be.

I can see it now:

Client to attorney: "Okay, I understand why you're telling me we can't use the letter at the trial, but I did show it to the police the night of the shooting. This is a copy. They kept the original."

Attorney: "Holy Mary, Mother of Pearl, are you [bleeping] kidding me?????!!!!!"

A lot of self defense training will go a long way to prove you were planing for a deadly force encounter, and might make some jurors think you were planning to shoot someone. Read up and practice on your own. All the training in the world will not guaranty the out come of a fight, and the one with the strongest will to survive usually prevails. Use the same type of ammo as your local law enforcement uses, or as close as you can get. If you call 911, simply report there has been a shooting, the location, and nothing else. Once the police arrive, you have no friends. Identify yourself to law enforcement as required, then shut up, get a lawyer, and let your lawyer answer ALL the questions.

Note bold... Best advice yet..

The proper reply (in court, with council's consent) would be, "No, my plans were to survive for my family." Absolutely - #1 priority..

That is EXCELLENT Waders and right on target.

That's not the first time I've heard this first hand.