Case Study One:

I recently bought a good to look at Kimber CDP II. The manual calls for 400 rounds of breakin with hardball. So I bought 400 rounds of ball ammo and went to work. Long story short - I never fired over 120 rounds at a sessions. The gun was cleaned after each session.

At 400 rounds the gun was still failing to go in to battery at least once every two magazines. During that 400 the gun would occasionally not extract the fired case causing a jam.

I decided it needed another 100 rounds. The failures to extract became more frequent.

Case Study Two:

Sig Sauer P220 ST. Started shooting this iron today. 120 rounds no failures. All but 24 rounds were hardball.

Case Study Three:

Last year I broke in an H&K USP Compact. 500 rounds mostly JHP ammo with no malfunctions.

Case Study Four:

New High Priced Custom EBKC. Failed regularly through the first 500 rounds. Failures to go to battery and jams caused by extraction failures. The gun maker said it was all my fault.

Case Study Five:

A few years back when ParaOrdnance came out with their new LDA trigger. I bought two sequentially serialized C7-45s.
After a couple hundred rounds through each. I shipped them to PO and even talked to the technician on the phone. The guns came back and still would not extract/eject reliably.

Later I talked to the buyer of one of these pistols. I asked him how he liked it. He said it was OK but kept jamming all the time.

Case Study Six:

S&W SW1911. Hundreds of rounds of various types ammo with never a malfunction. So far the only truly reliable 1911 I've had in over 40 years of shooting them.

Other .45 ACP semiautos not 1911 I've had no problems with are:
S&W 1045, S&W SW99, Browning BDA, S&W Chief Special, etc.

My conclusion is that the 1911 design basically is not a reliable design and would certainly not rely on one for self-defense eventhough they are fun to shoot.

That's funny, I'm over 700 rounds through a Rock Island Arms 1911A1 with absolutely zero failures of any description using three different magazines and thus far CCI Blazer FMJs, Remington/UMC FMJs, Federal Hydra-Shoks, Winchester white-box HPs, Hornady JHP/XTPs, Winchester SXTs, and Speer Gold Dots. All 230 gr. All feed with absolute reliability.

Three guys I normally shoot with have between them:
A Colt Gold Cup; and
4 Springfield 1911 variants (3 mil-specs, one of which is a Commander, and a Stainless standard model).

I have witnessed them, combined, firing several thousands of rounds, of various weights, designs, profiles, and makes. I can remember exactly 2! failures, both due to VERY cruddy guns and poor ammo (Wolf el cheapo FMJs).

So, I sincerely beg to differ with you. True, you've been shooting guns longer than I've been alive, but I think you're wrong on this one.

A 1911, nor any other semi-auto, is EVER going to be as reliable as a good revolver, but a 1911 is, IMHO, a DAMN reliable pistol design and one that I am certainly comfortable having as a personal defense CCW weapon.

Deputy Norm,

Hmm, You mentioned that you had a FTE (failure to extract)
problem with a kimber. Was it the newer external extractor
type? (Model has the little "e" on the end.) The kimbers are
well known to have outstanding fit and finish. However, their
external extractors, as TLee so famously said, are not there
yet.

Chuck_Tree

Deputy Norm,
I own a Colt Series 70 45 acp which is very reliable. I used it to take my Concealed Carry Test and it never bobbled.
The only way that gun gives problems is if I use some brass I bought used and it looks like it was put through the shredder.
I would not sell it to my worst enemy. ( on second thought)
Anyhow I think I would NOT trade my Colt for a new Glock,
SIG, or any other gun which consists mainly of plastic and or aluminum. Thank you very much! It is the best pistol made for self defense as far as Jeff Cooper and I are concerned. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
GWN

Norm, you are full of it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You must be limp wristing in your old age. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do have one 1911 with over 300,000 DOCUMENTED rounds through it without a bobble, it even continued to fire and cycle with the slide lock shaft broken in half. Several more with many thousands of rounds without fail. The new Kimbers do have extractor problems that is a fact, but c'mon.

I guess they didn't realy issue a couple of million to our solders from 1911 through the 50's. Couldn't hava a gun that wasn't no good for our finest.

Well, I've put a few rounds down range throw my grand-daddys 1911, and it never failed to load, fire or extract, and that included shooting some WWII mil surp, well after that conflict had ended.

I'd suspect the problem with some of the 1911 A1 clones is they decided to tighten up some of the dimensions in the name of accuracy, at the expense of reliability.

He's got it. By George, I think he's got it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
And no apologies to Prof Higgins in My Fair Lady.

The futher you trick out and deviate from the military specks of the Govt model 1911 A1 the more you are asking for trouble.


BCR

So.... Which are the most _reliable_ makers of the M1911A1
and its clones?

What about if the barrel is 3" instead of 5"?

Chuck_Tree

It seems the further you stray from John Brownings original design, a basic steel 5" gun, the more likely you'll have trouble. Though a good Commander is a wonderous handgun. The more bells and whistles you hang onto a gun IMHO the less reliable they seem to be. Good sights, a good trigger, and you should have a reliable shooter. BTW, that applies to any brand of handgun, Glock, Sig, Kimber, Springfield, whatever...

I've been a LEO for twenty years and carried a 1911 .45 ACP for the majority of those years. I have some good ones, a stainless 5" Colt that has some slide play and slop, not the most accurate of guns as it shoots about 3 1/2" at 25 yards for five rounds. But it doesn't miss a beat with any decent ammo, regardless of configuration. A Commander from Colt does as well. A 5" Kimber Custom plain jane is considerably tighter in fit and shoots groups about half the size of the Colt's, and it hasn't let me down either. A Kimber Tactical Pro has never failed to function, but, did break a magazine release catch after only 727 rounds. I replaced the part with an Ed Brown Hardcore mag catch and she's been flawless after a couple thousand rounds.

I also own Glock, Sig, and Kahr semi-auto pistols along with a smattering of wheelguns. I love them all for what they are, but I'll take one of my 1911's over any one of them at any time if SHTF.

Norm,

The current Kimbers are NOT representative of the originalsesign and designation of M1911A1.


Older first generation Kimbers were closer and if the reports I keep hearing are true, a completely differnt animal.

An external extractor.
Grip safety activated firing pin safety.
Small shop thrust into the forefront thanks to theiroriginal work and trying to keep up AND while keeping the lawyers happy.


As for the S&W.

Have heard but one or two reports of troubles.


The original 1911 was made with humans at the controlls of each machine, and then some hand fitting.

Today we call such things "Custom".

JMB designed the thing around manufacture by humans.
NOT Computer controlled production machinery.

Humans can feel, sense, and trust when things ain't right.

Computers work by numbers.

The 1911A1 is a human Pistol.

It is subject to those controls, and no matter the maker.

I'll be buried with mine.

E4E

Don't mean to hijack the thread but I thought I was the only person with one of those beauties!

Norm, you may be right but the ole one I had would have given pretty bad odds on your version of Russian roulette. Like all things mechanical some leave the shop with the magic and some need tinkering, but all things mechanical need maintenance.

Norm,

Sorry to hear of your woes. To sorta sum things up: You are faulting apples and using oranges as your examples. Here are some thoughts on your case study pistols:

Kimber CDP II � The question of the �best� production 1911 is an old one and it won�t be answered by me. Kimber is usually near or at the top of the list, but it has never been my favorite. The Kimber made its reputation as being one of the first manufacturers to offer custom features on a 1911 and I think the success went to Kimber�s head. I get the feeling that Kimber adds features solely for marketing purposes. Kimber has modified the CDP II into something that can�t be used to fault the 1911 design.

Based on the problems you described I would experiment with different weight recoil springs, starting with a lighter one. If that didn�t help I would replace the extractor.

Custom EBKC � A long break-in requirement is common with high-end and extremely tight 1911�s. I�ve handled brand new EB�s where I could hardly pull the slide back. The EBKC is a great example of craftsmanship, but a poor example of the �function over form� inherent in the 1911 design. Pistols with such a high degree of tolerances will never be a 500-rounds-without-a-jam type of pistol. I would love to own one myself, but I would only trust my life to one with fewer than 200-rounds between cleanings.

Extraction failures are usually recoil spring or extractor related, but I wouldn�t give up on the EBKC just yet. Doubling or even tripling the break-in period on such a high tolerance pistol wouldn�t surprise me. Since EB is no longer in the gunsmith business, choosing instead to go with complete pistols only, some of the luster of EB has faded for me. I have it in my mind that gunsmiths �tune� and have a better skill set for troubleshooting than production people do. If you still need to send the EBKC off after a thorough break-in I�d use someone like Ted Yost.

Para Ordnance C7-45 � This one surprises me the most. The LDA is another poor example for faulting 1911 design, but Para pistols usually go �bang� very reliably.

There are no Springfield pistols on your list, and I mention them only because they pretty much stick to the 1911 design. I like Springfield for exactly that reason. Their biggest deviation is using a ramped and fully supported barrel on anything less than 5-inches, and I believe that to be a great improvement on any 1911.

DN,

To eliminate possible sources of the gremlins, I would first try factory fresh ball ammo from another manufacturer, and run it through quality aftermarket mags.

Chris

Wilson/Rogers magazines are a must - You can not expect a pistol to work well unless ALL parts are quality and it seems to me that in the magazine dept. - thats where a lot of mfgs take short cuts.

I forgot to mention grand-daddy's 1911 was his sidearm in the first World War, and it is a 1911, not 1911 A1. Has 4 mags, and reliable goes bang bang bang from every mag, so long as they are loaded.

Norm,
I have a S and W 1911, with several thousand rounds through it. It has yet to fail to cycle or fire.

A 1911 that isn't reliable?? I heard there are honest politicians and lawyers who don't lie somewhere out there so I suppose a 1911 here and there might have some glitches too.

THAT was good!

I carried a 1911A1 as a company commander during the first Gulf War. The gun was 100% reliable, despite the conditions. Currently I carry an early Kimber Custom Classic. No problems will all types of ammo, with over a 1000 rounds through it. Most friends, all ex-military and ex-federal agents (customs) have carried 1911's and do so now. The only "bad" 1911 we've come across was a Dan Wesson that has throating issues. An informal poll of these gentlemen about which pistol they would carry in a fight (all wanted a rifle or shotgun, if possible) was a 100% in carrying a 1911A1 in 45ACP. Since these gentlemen have survived several shootouts collectively, I must defer to their wisdom.

Even a 22 derringer is better than nothing, but if trouble ever comes looking for me I hope I have the half - ninety hand cannon handy!
GWN

I have never had a single problem with my Wilson Combat. Thousands of rounds from all ammo manufactures. I won't carry anything else but the 1911.

Well, don't buy anymore and stick with what works for you.



Maybe a good 9mm is your ticket.

DN,

The more I thought about your problems, the worse it got. Now, I just can't live with myself if I don't help you out of that miserable situation you're in.

So, PM me and I'll give you my address. Just ship those three crappy 1911s (the Kimber, the Para, and the EBKC) right to me. I'll make sure to put 'em out to pasture so that they won't bother you anymore. Just consider it a kindly favor...

I think norm is stiring the fire to get a reaction. While I am not a big fan of the 1911's I have never had one fail to fire or jam in anyway even the imports from china. tom

I say he needs to start some case studies with some 9mm's, or maybe 32 ACP's.

I have found the 1911 to be as reliable as anything out there. With that being said, some of them require a little tuning by a skilled gunsmith. Guns like people are individuals and no one sample should represent the breed. I liked my beretta 92 and my glock better after some slight tuning too.

I have shot more rounds through 1911's than all other type of handguns combined. Somewhere in the tens of thousands of rounds. Mine worked just fine with the exception of an early AMT Hardballer. It was the single worst example of a 1911 that I ever witnessed. No one couold make that POS work reliably. While it was a bad example, it was not a fault of the design.

I currently have four 1911's:
Colt Gold Cup, Kimber Classic Gold Match, Springfield loaded and GI model. I would not hesitate to pick up any one of the four and bet my life on it.

YMMV

Definitely not an expert on what makes a 1911 tick, but have heard that if you limp-wrist one even the best 1911 will malfunction.

Personally have never had a malfunction with a 1911.

Hammer

Gee, Norm, that's a shame. My Kimber is approaching 2000 rounds without a bobble, using Wilson, Colt commercial and GI mags. And the bulk of that was Wolf brand Russki hard ball, which is notoriously hard on chambers since it's lacquered. Have brushed the chamber maybe twice.

My other current 1911 is a commercial Colt 1911A1---stock except for novak sights and a trigger job. Had a couple of jams with lead SWCs, mid range loads not strong enough for the springs. Never jammed with full throttle ammo.

Of the other three or four 1911s I've owned, can't say I've ever had a problem with failure to feed or jamming with good ammo and good magazines, after a hundred rounds or so of break in.

Now I did have a parts gun go full auto on me, which was God's revenge for my thinking I was getting it for a steal by paying a widow's asking price of $200, in about 1982 dollars. I quickly turned it back into parts and threw the butchered up "Essex" frame in the river. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But it fed just fine, even full auto.

for limp wristing it...

I specifically tested all my 1911 for this "problem"

Held in hand very loosly, just enough to hold backstrap safety on and pull trigger. think I used 3 fingers, functioned flawlessly....

can't say I've encountered that problem.

I do know that limp wristing will cause the infamous Glock to malfunction. A co-worker was having great difficulties shooting with a flashlight in the weakhand using various techniques, and her Glock 22 was jamming several times per magazine. It was dark so I didn't see if it was FTFs or FTEs or both. In all fairness to autoloaders, improper shooting form shouldn't be blamed on the gun. If you're luck like Blammer, then great, because it's an extra margin of reliabliltiy, but IMHO most mechanical devices are more reliable than the human running them, and given the right circumstances, most people can manage to cause a malfunction in just about everything.
222

hey norm,

my sympathy partner on this one... i know full well that there are bad eggs in the 1911 basket..... those who would remind us of the military service record of the 1911 are ignoring the fact that a lot of this was for staff officers doing escort duty and such..... a lot of the military 45s were more paperweight than anything else.....

units that issued the 1911A1 to be used, at least in the final years of service, had armorers shooting up case loads of ammo to sort out the good from the bad... i'm speaking from personal experience here... all of my military use of the 1911 came in the late 70s - early 80s when every one knew that the guns were worn out and tired....

FWIW i carried a remington rand all over hells half acre for a few years..... i trusted it completely... it would put'em all in a 2lb coffee can at 15 yds and never, ever fail to function... it was just a security blanket though as i never used it for anything except it helped me sleep someplaces.....

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> you sold me that savage to help pay for your ed brown..... reckon i got the clean end of that stick..... it is my go to rifle and i treasure it dearly... i put the factory rear sight in the box that my williams fool proof came out of... it sits on the shelf in my closet...

i'm startin' to feel like a trend setter..... all of my friends were sucks fanatics when i bought my model 70 a few years back..... now most of them are shooting model 70s and at least 2 of them are actively looking for a 99 of their own.....

thanks again, ... john w

Speaking of tired and worn out. I remember carrying a 45 back in mid 1970's. I was an MP and will always remember holding three guys at gunpoint while my partner searched their car. I was hoping they wouldn't hear the slide rattling on my 45. Come to think of it I never fired that pistol, I wonder if it would have fired? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think deputy norm is talking about a 3" 1911, they are more troublesome thana 4" or 5" 1911. By the way my 5" Kimber has over 15,000 rounds through it and has never jammed unless it was do to bad handloads or a shoddy magazine.

Tried something new...cast 262 grain bullets (they clocked 800fps) thru a Charles Daly 1911. The nose of the bullet was as flat as a billboard, yet they fed fine. I have a javelina hunt in Feb. and I am thinking I just might use this load....

I've owned ten or so 1911s of various makes, and most have been as reliable as any Glock or Sig. I have three Colts that are completely reliable. I have two Springfields that are completely reliable. I have a Series I Kimber CDP Compact that is completely reliable (used to have two that were completely reliable, but sold one). I have a Smith and Wesson 1911 that is completely reliable. I had a Wislon CQB Compact that was completely reliable (sold it only because the way it was made made it hard to field strip compared to a standard config 1911).

Interestingly, the most expensive 1911 I've ever purchased is the least reliable. It jams way too often to consider carrying for self defense, and that's an Ed Brown Kobra Carry, which cost me over two grand. I gave it a full thousand rounds of break in too, but after that I sent it back for correction. It was sent back to me without comment, and when I called to find out what work was done to it, Ed said that he just shot it, had no problems with it, and sent it back to me. He said it must have been my fault, i.e., limp wristing or something. This is BS, because none of my other 1911s jam on me, and limp wristing is supposed to only be a problem with lightweight 1911s, which this is not, and I have plenty of lightweight 1911s that are completely reliable. I will never buy or recommend and Ed Brown again. He refuses to do anything to back up his product. Stick with big names like Colt, Smith Wesson and Springfield. The new Series II Kimbers are known to be problematic.

PS Been owning and shooting 1911s since 1980.

TRH,

Does the Kobra use a ramped barrel?

Jog, no, the barrel has no ramp. It is a standard Commander style set up. Why?

P.S., as recommended by someone above, I emailed Ted Yost today, and got a reply same day (Fourth of July, no less) from his partner. He said he gets lots of Ed Browns in for this reason, and has no problem making them reliable. I think I will see what they can do.

TRH,

A ramped barrel usually increases reliability - especially in short slides. The feed angle is less critical and there's no "bump" in the ramp like there is on a two part ramp (frame and slide). I'm pretty sure Springfield uses ramped barrels on all their short slides.

As you know, ramped barrels also usually have fully-supported chambers and are stronger.

Ted Yost can turn your Kobra into a greased machine - there's no doubt in the world.

At my current count I've got seven 1911s, and access to five more my dad and brother have. All of them are the standard barrel setup as JMB designed it, and they all work great. Half of them have been slicked up by a good smith, and the others are stock. Only one of those dozen guns has a ramped barrel. It's a Commander that I had built with a Nowlin barrel. It usually works OK, but not 100%. I went with the ramped barrel because JHPs tend to dig up the aluminum ramps in the frame, and I didn't want to have to go back and fix that problem later. I'm sure I could have the ramp angle changed and the problem fixed, but I just wanted to point out that there's nothing inherently wrong with the standard unsuported barrel system.
222

222Rem,

"Inherently wrong" is way too harsh a phrase, so suffice to say a ramped and fully supported barrel is always better than the standard set-up. It might not be necessary or too costly, but it is a better design.

I have a mid 1970's Colt Light Weight Commander since 1977 and the only fails to feed I've had with it were the magazines fault. The gun is a bullet spitting machine. kwg

Kwg020,

Since your pistol is a Colt, I'd blame the magazines too.

It does bring up an interesting point about 1911 magazines though. While it can be a source of trouble, the magazine often takes more than its fair share of the blame.

It�s not uncommon to see a shooter searching through 1911 magazine to find out which ones function in his particular pistol. Sometimes an out-of-spec pistol is the true culprit, and the �good� magazines are out-of-spec too � everything just happens to line up.

There are few things cheesier than some of the government issue magazines, and yet a properly spec�d pistol will gobble the ammo out of one like there�s no tomorrow. If a 1911 chokes on a �mil-spec� magazine sometimes the �better� magazine that provides the cure is actually �worse�.

Sorry for the harsh phraseology. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'll agree that the ramped barrel is more expensive, and is used in every other autoloader I can think of, (with great success usually), but I'm not convinced that it's better than the standard setup like JMB designed. If wellmade 1911s operate with 100% reliability using the standard set-up, how can it be said that the ramp is an improvement? I understand the supported chamber idea, and for those who reload their brass forever, and risk blowing a case, that has some merit. But part of the beauty of the .45acp is the fact that it's such a low pressure round, which is easier to shoot, easier on the gun, and easier on the brass. For all other centerfire auto cartridges I'd say it's worth going with the ramp. But in the .45, I don't see the ramp as an improvement.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the ramped barrel idea in the 1911 start with the hot .38 Super loads used in IPSC?
222

I worked one time at a LE agency, that the POS dept. weapons instr. wouldn't allow anyone to qualify with a single action weapon ie. 1911 type weapons, as an off duty weapon. I thought it was BS myself.

i reckon that reliability was not as much an issue as liability..... not to many street cops that should be turned loose with a single action auto in tense situations

222Rem,

You're right - in a full size 1911 a ramped barrel probably doesn't increase the reliability much. As you said, the benefit is strength.

My understanding of ramped barrel is that the Commander and shorter slides unlock with the barrel faster than a full size and the barrel doesn't tilt as much during the recoil cycle. Pistols with short slides often use the same magazines as their big brothers, so suddenly the feed and extraction geometry can be less than optimum (JMB didn't design the Commander <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

A ramped barrel can fix all that on some pistols.

I don't have personal experience with 1911's, but I have owned (notice past tense) two pistols that weren't reliable.
The first was a Star Firestar M40. It kept breaking ejectors. I got free parts until Star and Interarms went out of business.
Next I bought a Taurus PT 140. It never fed properly from multiple magazines. Rounds tended to "nosedive" and jam against feed ramp. Even returned to Taurus for tuning at a shipping cost of $51! Still no good. Traded in for a Sig P239. End of problem. Every pull of trigger goes bang. I also have an early H&K USP40. 8,000 rounds. Always, always fires.
I wonder why the 1911 manufacturers don't look at the Sig, which has a split feed ramp and figure out what Sig does right.
I also had a Glock 22. It always fired, but hurt the hell out of my trigger finger so I sold it, too.
BTW: All revolvers I've owned have been 100% reliable.

Sigs are super reliable. I've owned and extensively fired three of them.Again, super reliable. I have one USP 45 and it goes band every time.Put together correctly, there is nothing wrong with the 1911 design. It was designed, however, when everything was made and fitted by hand, i.e., there were no stamped metal or plastic parts that just went together out of a manufacturing machine. The design doesn't do as well with mass manufacture techniques. The 1911s made in the 50s and prior are as rock solid reliable as any Glock or Sig or H&K made today.You are lucky. I must have owned fifty revolvers from major manufacturors over the past 25 years and about one quarter of them have failed to fire (for reasons other than ammo) at least once.

I have owned enough 1911 pistols over 2+ decades that I am not sure if I remember them all. The all-steel 5-inch barreled pistols were all reliable, whereas the ones with shorter barrels, and especially the ones with alloy frames, seemed to have some issues with reliability. Tight pistols can be reliable; my Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special has yet to malfunction, though I have heard the Baer TRS is not fitted quite as tightly as the other models in the line. Due to the way the trigger guard fairs into the front strap, just about all my other 1911 pistols have been sold or traded; the Baer grip frame fits me so much better that it is like a different species.

Norm,Anybody.who.makes.that.statement.after.two.world.wars.and.upteen''police.actions''and.other.tests.must.be.lacking.in.experience[quite.possible!?]ignorant..?There.are.unreliable.1911's.but.not.by.design.by.substandard.parts-yes.bypeople.tweaking.them-yes.and.by.''experts''making.them.better.BIG.yes.get.yourself.a.plain.jane.1911.it'll.work.everytime.Shootrj2003