After my problems with Buffalo Bore 220gr HCL loads (would not cycle or feed), and Double Tap 230gr HCL (fed poorly, case ruptured on 3rd shot) in my G20, I emailed both companies - explaining my problems came with a 6" Lone Wolf barrel, and that since replacing that barrel with a Glock 6" barrel the ammo will feed (manually) fine, but I am a bit hesitant to fire it. I got a very quick reply from Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore. He said that they "keep hearing" of problems with their ammo and Lone Wolf barrels, he recommends using Glock barrels and factory recoil springs, as that is what they used for development work on the ammo, and it should work fine.

I have already replaced the stock recoil spring with a 22# spring and the plastic guide rod with a SS one, and will be keeping these, but maybe I'll give the ammo another try? He also said "do NOT worry about the unsupported
case web area because 10MM brass is very strong in the web area unlike 40
S&W brass." Hmm. I have a picture of a Double Tap "blown out" in that area, but what do I know? I was just pleased to get such a quick response.

Like I've said before on here, I have about 1200 multiple fired cases I handloaded before knowing about the unsupported case problem. They were mixed mfr. I load for accuracy but have found that is usually near the top for my Glock 20 so most of my loads were at the top or nearly so. I probably loaded most cases 2-3 times. Maybe more. I never found one that had a bulge in all the operations of case prep, or a split, and watched on the last priming very carefully to find one. I never found one.

That being said, neither do I believe that my handloads were approaching the pressure of BB or DT loads. If it were me, and I wanted to load some stiff hard cast loads, I would purchase the bullets from DT, Cast Performance, or Beartooth (cheaper and shot good in my gun) and load my own within published recommendations.

I'd also use the barrel that supports the case the best and if it doesn't chamber correctly send it back. I have a Storm Lake barrel and have used it for a couple years and never had any issue with it not chambering or shooting my handloads if properly crimped with a Lee factory crimp die.

I've seen other posters talk about their 10mm loads for auto pistols on here which are 1 grain above "book" max for heavy bullets. Personally, I don't believe that is a good idea and may well be where problems or kabooms come from. Each to their own.

If you (rhetorical "you") need more juice in an auto pistol than 10mm provides, I believe the best alternative is a Desert Eagle, not trying to make the 10 into something it cannot safely become.

Thit is, indeed quick and good response and service!

About 10mm brass having thicker web areas and just forward, I have not been able to detect that and especially not in some of the 10mm loads that blew right through the cases when I was testing some ammo in my Delta Elite. I have seen plenty of 10mm cases with little 'smiley face' creases in the brass where the case was unsuported, too.

Go forward with all due caution and discretion. When I am testing a new formula in a handgun I wear thick leather gloves and the best eye protection I have on hand.

With my stock Glock 20 10mm barrel there is feed ramp intrusion to 0.288".
10mm brass has a 0.180" thick web.
That leaves .108" of thin unsupported case wall over the feed ramp.

My Barsto aftermarket Glock 20 10mm barrel has case support to 0.230" -> 0.050" of thin unsupported case wall.

I can measure the effect of the difference with overloading work ups.

Hodgdon published max load 10mm:
9.5 gr. LONGSHOT max Hodgdon, 180 gr. SIE JHC, WLP, 1.260", 5", 1287 fps 34.6 kpsi

Stock Glock 20 10mm work up
a) 9.5 gr. G20 stock, WLP 1.26", 180 gr. FMJ FP .58", ok, 0%
b) 9.75 gr. G20 stock, WLP 1.26", 180 gr. FMJ FP .58", bulge, 3% extra powder

Glock 20 Barsto barrel work up
a) 13.2 gr. G20 Barsto, WLP 1.26", 180 gr. FMJ FP .58", bulge 0.230" , 39% extra powder

I should add that:
1) Longshot may look good on paper, but cannot produce much power compared to 800X
2) The real limit in well supported 25acp, 32acp, 380, 9mm, 40sw, 10mm, 45acp, etc. is recoil and not pressure as is commonly misconceived. The practical and common [slide mass * recoil spring] products are going to be too small to avoid slide slam. Slide slam is bad for the hand, bad for the gun, and makes the ejected brass hard to find.
3) Measuring a case in a chamber and scribing feed ramp outline will produce a measurement a few thousands smaller than measuring the bulges. This explains the inconsistencies over the last decade in my posts on forums and quotes of me on the gunzone.

Looked over the small collection of fired brass I have, and didn't really see any creases or smiley faces - just some that appeared to be scratched, maybe from extraction. This included the 7 or 8 Double Tap cases I fired before I got the rupture, in the Lone Wolf barrel. I sent a picture of my ruptured case to Tim Sundles, and he said that IF the round was not overcharged and IF the brass was in good shape, case support should not have caused that. He said if the brass was marked Double Tap it was probably Armscor, and theirs was normally good brass.

His recommendation from the Buffalo Bore point of view was to only fire their rounds (in a Glock) through Glock barrels. I will be taking that advise, and I will try to shoot the BB and DT rounds I have left, CAUTIOUSLY. Although I am a fan of heavy for caliber Hard Cast bullets at low velocities, I intend to shoot jacketed hollow points at the higher 10mm velocities, higher being relative to .45ACP or maybe sub sonic .44 mag. - most likely 1200 fps or under.

Also, thanks to you fellows (Clark, Mark, RickyD) for helping by sharing your own knowledge and experience. I am listening and learning.

Here is hot loaded 10mm with the lonewolf barrels. They don't support any better than the factory glock barrels. I have yet to see a barrel that fully supports the case in a glock. Some are better than others but none are full. I promise youif you were to reload this brass again, you would be a kaboom just waiting to happen. I love glocks, own a couple but I know the limits of em.

I'm loading 200 grain xtp & double tap hc with 9.3gn of Longshot and using a cci mag primer in a glock 20 with a kkm barrel at 5.5" long. I have some brass on its 5th loadings and no sign of a bulge. My chronograph says 1275fps. I have about 700 rounds fired and never got a bulge. 22# spring and stainless guide rod.

That is good information, High Country, thanks. Is a magnum primer necessary with Longshot? Haven't used it yet, powder selection locally is very poor right now, to say the least.

What Ricky D said. E

I don't think a magnum primer is necessary, but I was able to find 5k of them.....so that is what I am rolling for now.

I got a call today from Double Tap ammo, about my recent "kaboom" problem. After telling me that he used a LW barrel in a G20 with no problems, except that often the ammo would not fully seat in a "drop test" and would need to be "pushed" the last little bit, I was told that the wide face on the 230gr Hard Cast bullets sometimes cased problems, and that perhaps I should consider a 200gr bullet. DT ammo loaded with a 200gr Nosler JHP was highly recommended (I have a box of these bullets to load already). Then I was told that DT did have a problem with some brass from a new supplier they were trying, so they offered to send me a box each of their ammo loaded with the 200gr Nosler and their own 200gr Hard Cast in exchange for me sending back the two boxes of 230gr Hard Cast I bought out of which I had the case rupture, so they could check the brass to see if it came from that bad batch.

After getting good and quick response from Buffalo Bore, also, I am maybe more impressed with the customer service from these ammo providers than I am the 10mm cartridge itself!

That IS good customer service!

Glad it is all working out for you.

Not every ammunition maker is a member of SAAMI, keep that in mind. I would feel quite confident with ANY SAAMI spec load in a Glock 20. Beyond that, I really don�t see that you gain much with +P; maybe 100fps, but a good decrease in safety margin. Are you willing to give up a good deal of safety margin for 100fps? Do you think anything you shoot with 100fps less velocity will be significantly different from something that has the extra 100fps?

When you go beyond SAAMI, you�re trading safety for performance. It�s up to YOU to weigh the risk vs. benefit.

Personally, I can�t imagine there�s anything that is hit squarely with a full power 10mm load and won�t go down, but will with 100fps more. Color me dubious.

I say, if you�re carrying a Glock 10mm you�re the last guy in the world who needs +P�you have like 14 more chances at success available to you instantly.

This bears repeating.

Kevin, you are correct, of course. I don't intend to "push" the 10mm past levels proven to be safe. If I need more than that, I'll carry my .44 Mag, or one of my Contenders.

On the 14 more chances, though, often a game animal that does not go down does not give you 14 more chances to "make it right", - and my use of the 10mm will be for hunting.

Too late.

IF your choice of a 10mm is for hunting, I think you would be far better off with a 1911 style pistol that has a fully ramped barrel. You would gain an immensely better trigger, better ergo's, a slimmer profile and with said fully ramped and thusly full coverage of the case barrel the Doubletap and Buffalo BOre stuff as well as handloads that replicated the original Dornaous and Dixon / Norma loads could easily and safely be digested.

The Doubletap, Buffbore etc. strike me as merely being what the 10mm auto round was intended and designed to be.

You have posted this statement several times and it is IMHO a statement that borders on unsafe. THE 10MM WAS BACKED DOWN BY SAAMI BECAUSE THE TOP LOADINGS WERE EXTREMELY ABUSIVE TO THE GUNS AND OVER TIME UNSAFE. When one comes unhinged in your hand it will not be a pleasant experience.

Re-read Kevin's post above there is much logic in it

Mark,

I assume you mean building up a custom 1911 with a ramped barrel? The standard 1911 barrel is non-ramped and really doesn�t offer much more case support than the Glock (a little, but not much).

But you could do a ramped barrel in the 1911 and that would give you more case support. Or one could go with the Witness 10mm which is a very good, often overlooked, completely underrated, high capacity 10mm pistol with a single action carry option. They even make a �hunter� model with longer barrel and single action.

Kevin,

Yes, I am talking about either a custom 1911 or one of the 1911's that come from momma with a fully ramped barrel like my RIA does.

BTW, that RIA shot 16 rounds into 1 5/8 inch at 25 yards the other day. I am quite impressed with that pistol, expecially at its pricepoint.

GREAT to see you posting and opining here again, my friend!

RIA? Do Tell us not in the 1911 know. Thanks.

Chamber dimensions and headspace are the only factors in case support. Whether the barrel has a feed ramp or not doesn't matter.

Well, most ramped barrels offer greater case support over a non-ramped barrel. This is because the chamber goes back a tad further. If you were to take the same reamer and cut a chamber the same depth, the ramped barrel would offer a touch more case support.

Then I'm surprised Glock has such problems.

I have non ramped barrels in my 1911's that support the case back to the web of the case. I agree with JOG they support the same unless someone did a poor job on the tapering the bottom of the barrel which happens

Clarkm has measured case support about a dozen times on this board. And I think Clarkm has pretty much done the heavy-lifting on what brass will handle if supported properly.

Anyways, the witness is one of the few ramped barrel designs available (I think Wilson is the other) to the average Joe, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone post some case support measurements. The Witness certainly is at a good price point.

I posted some photos of the test target I shot with my new Rock Island Armory Tactical 10 1911 pistol a couple of weeks ago. Not only did it shoot 16 rounds into 1 5/8 inch, but 12 of the 16 were inside of one inch. The four that were outside of the 1 inch group could easily have been operator error as my eyes are not what they used to be.

On top of that, my Tactical 10 has a fully ramped barrel and supports the case exceptionally well. I have fired a good number of my rather hot 10mm handloads pushing 180gr Gold dots at 1375 and as a torture test I fired some handloaded 10mm ammo I bought at a gun show (learned my lesson, NO MORE gun show handloads!) that blew out their web areas in my Colt Delta Elite and destroyed a set of Rosewood grips. The RIA ate 'em up and spit 'em out without a hitch.

It really bummed me out to have to sell my much customized and upgraded Delta Elite to pay bills, but this RIA that I bought as a replacement with only 1/3 of the money I got for the DE has eased my pain and grieving considerably. It is a quite fine daily carry and all around pistol, IMO and IME so far.

The deciding factor is the angle at which the ramp is cut. Ramped 1911 barrels have a steeper angle on the ramp than a Glock, so they intrude less into the chamber area.

So when you really get down to it, it is the angle of the ramp, and how far it intrudes into the chamber. Vary that angle on identical chambers and you have varying degrees of case head support.

They have a sharper angle of feed ramp that intrudes deeper into the chamber.

Here is proof that the ramped and the un-ramped barrels have the same amount of case support

Double Tap sent me a box of their ammo loaded with 200gr Nosler JHP that are labeled to produce 1250fps, and a box of 200gr Hard-cast lead marked 1300fps. I will be test-firing some of these soon, using the 6" Glock barrel. McNett says he has no problems with Lone Wolf barrels, Sundles from Buffalo Bore, recommends staying with Glock barrels in Glocks. Both tell me their ammo should shoot in my pistol with no problems. We'll see.

That's proof of one makers barre in one model of gun. I was making generalizations, but they were pointed primarily at the 1911, not the Glock.

Again the execution of the work is more important than whether or not the barrel is ramped or not. I don't have, need nor want a ramped barrel

I wasn�t disputing that. I was disputing that it was a matter of chamber dimensions and headspace. It�s a matter of the design of the feed ramp, and how much it intrudes into the chamber area.

I think it would be great if we could get some manufacturers of 10mm pistols/ammo in on this discussion. These problems don't see to come up with .45ACP or other lower pressure loads. The 10mm seems to be a great loading, but some aspects might need to be addressed?

Really the only thing that needs to be addressed is the desire of some folks to make it a .41 magnum. BTDT myself, but I've learned better. If you stick with SAAMI factory loads and reputable hand loads you can exceed the .357 magnum by a significant margin and ramped/unramped or supported/unsupported won't matter a bit.

The 10mm was never intended to be fired out of a 1911. In the original loadings, the cartridge was just too hot for the design. Not only is the lack of case support on the 1911 an issue for the high pressure loads, but the platform itself is inadequate for the full power cartridge. Frames and slides will crack if one shoots a lot of full power loads out of a 10mm 1911. Fortunately, few can afford to put thousands upon thousands of rounds of full power 10mm through their pistols. And for those who can afford such adventures, they can afford to replace the guns they were out from time to time.

The original Colt�s design for the 10mm 1911 was what eventually became the Peter�s Stahl conversion after it was rejected by Colt�s. The Peter�s Stahl conversion added a very heavy, very beefed up slide to soak up the recoil, and a ramped barrel with much improved case head support. Colt�s didn�t like it because it didn�t look like a 1911, so they took the easy way out and just went with a dual spring system on an otherwise rather standard 1911. While this worked, the safety margins were greatly reduced, and the pistols couldn�t take a lifetime of full power loads. However, the 10mm Delta Elite did make for a lighter weight, much more convenient package than the other 10mm�s that were out there. So convenience and expedience won out, and the 10mm�s we see today are the same compromise, but with the added advantage that most 10mm ammo is reduced in power from the original Norma loads of the 1980�s. So the whole thing ends up working out rather well.

Kevin,

Well stated as is so often the case. I really liked my DE and like my RIA 1911 in 10mm also very well, but I am under no delusion that it or the DE if I had kept it would have stood up to several thousands of full power rounds fired. I am like the more typical buyer/owner you mention who just does not have the resources to fire enough 10mm ammo to break my gun anytime soon. As well, the bulk 10mm practice ammo that I buy and reload acts more like plus P 40 Short and Weak ammo. The gun should last a good long time with 180''s at about 1150fps for its regular diet, and that ain't a load to sneeze at, anyways.

Bought a Glock 20 Gen 4 SF, Looked hard and could find no ammo here in AK. Found 1 box of Buffalo Bore 230 Gr cast in Seward AK, had to reload some 180 gr HP. Like the Glock its my first after many 1911 style 45,s.
Was able to buy 4 boxes of 10 MM 180 gr Rem MC FP in Oregon brought them home on the plane. Reasonably accurate and functions fine.

Shot 5 rounds of the expensive BB 230 gr. after cleaning barrel, with a 22# spring. Function was great and hit a rock at 50 yards. No case smile marks, but will not reload those cases.

From what I read the BB cast ammo was tested in a stock Glock barrel, and they recommended the 22# spring and steel guide rod and removing any lead before shooting jacketed bullets.

There's not a reason not to reload "Glocked" brass unless there are serious, or better yet severe smilies on the brass, and I mean bad smilies. I've reloaded many a .40 and 10mm shot through my Glocks with absolutely zero issues. I even ran some yesterday through my G20 Gen4 (BTW, Gen4 is a Gen4, there is no "SF" Gen4, only Gen3) using 3N38 shooting a 180gr JHP @ 1350 fps avg and a 200gr WFNGC hardcast at 1250 fps. Brass even from the stock barrel looked fine, and will be reloaded again.

So, Kevin, if the 1911 is a poor choice for 10mm, what pistols are preferable?

Thanks for the info gang - always wanted a 10, love 41s, and a 10 is next on my bucket list.

Curious as folks compare the 10 to the 357. What about the 357 Sig? I suppose you are limited on bullet weights in that round, but wonder do those OEM guns have any issues that some of the 'unsupported 10s' have re: case issues/safety?

Thanks.

Bottleneck cases in a handgun are tough to load for. I don't shoot anything I can't load myself with the obvious exception of a .22.

Good point, no doubt not so 'loader' friendly perhaps.

As an update, I have "revisited" the Buffalo Bore 220 gr Hard Cast loads after switching to the Glock 6" barrel, 22# recoil spring, and stainless guide rod. No problems at all, pistol loads and cycles as it is supposed to, fires without incident, and is accurate. I have not yet had the opportunity to shoot the Double Tap 200gr Hard Cast and Nosler JHP loads, but expect no problems with them, either. While 10mm recoil is not excessive, the heavier spring and rod DO make a difference. I am now much happier with the Glock - maybe one day I'll like it as much as it's legions of avid followers do? Still prefer my 1911, but for a semi-auto hunting handgun, I think this one will do fine.

Perhaps I didn�t tell the whole story. While it�s true that the 1911 isn�t really adequate for the original 10mm loads, most loads have been toned down to be less abusive on your 1911. It really just depends on how much you�re going to shoot full power loads. The full power original loads may be abusive to your 1911 but your 1911 can take several hundred, perhaps even a few thousand before showing signs of real abuse. The 10mm ammo that�s sold today will wear a 1911 more than a .45 ACP will, but not vastly more. Considering that most turn to the 10mm as more of a field load than a self defense load, it�s somewhat of a given that the round count will be lower with a 10mm 1911. So I don�t consider the 1911 to be a poor choice for 10mm at all. You just have to realize that it wasn�t intended to be a 10mm and treat the gun accordingly.

For full power 10mm loads, the Glock would be better suited to handle a steady diet due to its much heavier slide. The Witness 10mm is also a pistol that is well worth considering.

I guess it depends on what you want to do with that .357 Sig. If you're wanting .357 Magnum power in an auto pistol, I heartily recommend the 9x23 Winchester which is a better cartridge in most every way. But the downfall of the 9x23 is the fact that you won't find it on the shelves of a gun store. Internet purchases, or reloading is about the only way to get it.

The .357 Sig has a horrible muzzle blast, and it's a pain to reload. Early .357 Sig brass had problems with case neck separation, but that's all been worked out. The .357 Sig is generally somewhat expensive, and less hard to find than other popular handgun cartridges, but at least as, or more common than 10mm.

I personally don't much care for the .357 Sig, but it does have one distinct advantage. When ammo gets scarce, generally you can still find .357 Sig ammo.

Thanks for the info, Kevin, but I don't have a 1911 in 10mm - although I want one. Just wondered what you thought WAS a good platform for the 10mm. I would certainly agree that the 1911 was designed for the low pressure .45ACP. Your reply makes me feel I made the right choice in sticking with the G20 Glock that I have now. I would suggest that it does not seem the slide weight can overcome a poor aftermarket barrel, though - appears Glock barrels might be best for Glock pistols?. I am giving the Witness a look, and it is fairly impressive. The other 10mm I've been seriously thinking about is the RIA 1911. If the Glock works out, however, my next step up in the semi-auto pistol world will probably be to a .460 Rowland - in a 1911.