http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/01/10/357-magnum-stopping-power/

I grew up during the golden age of the wondernine. Every big PD in America was switching from wheelguns to Berettas and 3rd Gen S&W pistols. The gun rags of the era were filled with �9mm vs. 38" and �9mm vs. .357" articles. As is to be expected, most of the articles decried the downgrade in �stopping power� that the 9mm offered vs. the legendary .357 Magnum. The more sordid gun rags were filled with stories of bad guys going down after one hit from a .357 Magnum, reduced to a shower of gore by the powerful �man-stopper.�

Probably the most legendary of the .357 Magnum rounds was the famous Remington 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint. Pushing an old school bullet at 1400+ FPS, the 125 grain JHP would frequently expand violently, but would have limited penetration. Testing of that old school load in ballistic gel generally produces about 10 inches of penetration and considerable expansion.

As bullet technology has advanced, the .357 has come along with it. Winchester offers a .357 Magnum load with their bonded PDX/Ranger bullet, and Hornady offers multiple .357 loadings with their FTX and XTP bullets. But the question is whether or not the .357 Magnum is really worth it any more? Back in the 70s and 80s, the Magnum made sense. The extra velocity when coupled with older bullet technology really did provide a bullet with better terminal ballistics than the .38 Specials riding in most police department holsters. But now? Not so much. I love my magnums, and I�ll never get rid of them, but if I�m being honest with myself? There�s not much of a place for .357 Magnums in the self-defense world. Now, if you want to talk hunting handguns and lightweight carbines, that�s another story entirely. But the .357 Magnum is sort of like the .40 S&W now: it doesn�t really offer enough of a performance upgrade out of a service sized handgun to be worth the extra muzzle blast and recoil you get for it.

If I�m going to carry a wheelgun, it�s going to have .38 Special +P loaded in it. Modern .38 Special loads have come a long way since the 1980s. For new shooters, despite my deep and abiding love for the wheelgun, you should probably just get a Glock 19 or something like that. So for the .357 Magnum, its era of legendary stopping power is over. Unless you�re going hunting, in which case by all means continue. I�ll probably bring a magnum with me on a coyote hunt I have coming up later this year, but that�s because rolling up coyotes with Hornady�s lever gun .357 Magnum round is hilarious.

357 magnum Smith 686 loaded with the Speer Gold Dot HP's would beat anything in a semi-auto offered today for stopping power in a handgun as far as I'm concerned .

10mm...

The .357 has the terminal performance, no one could doubt that. But it comes with serious baggage. Horrendous muzzle flash is the worst of them, but recoil and noise are there too. Set one off indoors at night and everyone in the room is deaf and blind.

I consider the "vice" to be a virtue. If I unlimber my 2.5" Python woth full loads I KNOW WHAT IS COMING while my adversary likely doesn't. That brutal blast,noise and flash in THEIR face discombubulates them to the nth degree setting them up for a second shot IF NECESSARY. Probly not but the psywar is on MY side.

And if that aint bad enough go up to the .357 maximum
talk about going blind

I would prefer the 357 over the 10mm if i wanted one shot stopping power

..you can have all the fancy bullets you want....when it come to .35s speed kills....better.

.38 Special ain't so Special....Bob

I like this portion (among many) of your post on police combat effectiveness in the Hunter's Campfire section.


"Bullet Efficiency

During the period 1970 through 1979, the police inflicted 10 casualties for every one suffered at the hands of their assailants.

In all of the cases investigated, one factor stood out as a proper measure of bullet efficiency. It was not the size, shape, configuration, composition, caliber, or velocity of the bullet.

Bullet placement was the cause of death or an injury that was serious enough to end the confrontation."



A pissed off Florida razorback around 1979 taught me the single most abiding thing I've carried with me about a defensive pistol - get something that hits where your wide open eyes are looking. Hits good and bad on game animals since then have reinforced that impression. Within reason, where you hit'em is more important than what you hit'em with.

.357's also aren't loaded as hot as they were 40-50 years ago.

A good modern bonded bullet, launched out of an N frame Smith, at 1500+ fps could be really interesting. Maybe too interesting for a J frame .357, though...

I have some Cast Performance WFN's...need to try them in the 5" pre-27...

I don't think there would be a dramatic difference in stopping power between .38 and .357, on human beings at least.

Oh contraire, I certainly believe there is a legitimate difference. At least that is what my experience in the game fields has shown.

I have been reading all these different topics about which this or that bullet, does this or that. I agree that bullet technology has come a long way in the last 10-20 years, however.

These "do all" bullets and loadings can be hard to acquire a lot of the time, not to mention expensive. The last wonder 9 ammo I bought was like 22+ dollars for a box of 20, they were some Remington bonded loads.

All I am trying to say is I don't think I am going to be able to rely on super bullets. But be prepared with calibers and loads that are plentiful. If that means the old 45 with ball ammo, so be it. Or a souped up 44 special type load with cast bullets.

Right now I carry a Glock 17 with the Remington load for my job, so I am not a 9mm hater.

Really? I guess you have your reasons.

It's pretty assinine to say a 38 Sp will do anything a .357 will.
A 38 will deliver less than 300 ft lbs of energy. Drag that down with a snubby revolver's barrel length and it is less. Not saying I would like to be shot with one, but a 38 is not a .357 by any stretch of the imagination. Certainly bullet placement is paramount. I have more handguns chambered in.357 than all of the rest of them combined.

If you've heard hand guns just don,t put deer down and a 357 mag is just not up to the task, I can tell you from DECADES OF experience that yes theres a difference, and the 44 MAG is a bit more effective, but the 357 MAG LOADED WITH A GOOD 158 GRAIN SOFT POINT OR THE BULLET I'VE USED FROM NEI (link below)FOR decades is 100% lethal in the hands of a decent shot and you can get complete pass thru shots with decent hard cast bullets in most hand gun calibers suitable for hunting, yes you make a good point that the 357 mag doesn,t always seem to put a deer down with near the authority that as an example a 44 mag does but its been my experience that results are a good deal more about exact shot placement, than any change in caliber, within certain limits.
Ive used both caliber hand guns for 40 plus years.
Id also point out that a 6" or longer barrel allows the cartridge to obtain its full potential from the powder charge.
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

a stiff load of blue dot, 2400, OR h110 and this gas check bullet has done the job for decades, but remember shot placements critical with a hand gun, a 357 mag easily provides the power to shoot thru a deers chest and its quickly lethal if the shots placed correctly

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun

Now that is funny right there!

158 38spl. on the left.

Anybody that has an questions about 357 magnum and its stopping power, needs to check out brass fetcher.com.

I've shot enough game with a 357 to have a fair understanding of its capabilities. The 357 penetrates reasonably well with proper loads and is good on deer, but lacks diameter and bullet mass for heavy lifting.

The problem with that stat is that the 1400 fps is quite possible from a 6" barrel. From a 3-4" barrel that most folks actually carry expect 1200-1300 fps or less.

My 4" G-19 gets 1250 fps with 124 gr +P ammo with a lot less recoil and a lot more ammo on board. Not saying the 357 doesn't deserve the reputation, but if a 125 gr bullet at 1250fps is a man stopper from a 357, why is the same bullet at the same speed not a man stopper when fired from a 9mm.

I also have the Glock 20 SF in 10 mm and don't feel under-gunned with either, just grew up with the 357 magnum and only have nothing but respect for it , own three at the moment .

My last 4" model 19 clocked 1450 out of its 4" barrel with factory Fed & Rem 125's.

40S&W equals and surpasses 4" 357mag.

In what way? If you want tissue destruction the Rem 125 gr SJHP just makes big wounds. It typically breaks into 4 pieces and penetrates 14-16". Its one of the most predictable bullets i've ever tested. For barrier penetration i dont know of any .40 cal load that can top the 158 JHP in the .357. (Or any other auto pistol roynd for that matter)

The .357 has terminal performance, there's no doubt about that. But the noise, HORRENDOUS muzzle flash, and recoil (although it doesnt bother me unless its a J frame) are just not worth it in my book. To my way of thinking, those are significant liabilities. Where a .40 or .45 will give you like 98% the terminal performance with none of the offending drawbacks. Unless its the only thing you have, the .357 just doesnt make sense as a personal protection cartridge anymore.

Yep. Those old Remington 125's would make 1400 plus out of a 4" 686 barrel too.

In the 70's i had this friend who was a County Mountie and i loaded him the 125 gr Sierra for a duty load in his 4 inch Model 19 357 Magnum and they were hot. He shot this guy outside a local bar who was supposedly drunk and coming at or threating him with a tire iron while he was on duty. He shot the guy in the chest and the bullet took out two or three ribs and one lung , needless to say the guy when down like a sack of sand. He survived and didn't die, but lost the ribs and one lung . I know for a fact the 125 gr bullet out of the 357 magnum doesn't mess around in stopping power. After the shooting he told me he wouldn't carry any other load on duty in his pistol, but my hand loads with the 125 gr Sierra Bullet. I believe i loaded them with a max load of H110 and CCI 550 MAG PRIMERS and this was from the old manuals when a max load was a max load . I really don't believe a better pistol round was ever made for stopping a man than the 357 magnum. Stopping and killing are two different animals.

Just going by the numbers. When I look up velocities for a 4" 357 pushing a 158gr pill and 4" 40S&W pushing a 155gr pill I see equality. And when I look at the 4" barrel platforms available for the 40S&W - I see a big advantage for the 40S&W.

If the bore diameters were the same for those two cartridges were the same, your comparison would be more valid.

A 158 in 357 is more the equivalent of a 180 grain bullet out of the 40 S&W

FWIW the last I saw of Evan Marshall's stats...not Stopping Power Index of Marshall and Sanow, the 40 S&W had finally eclipsed the 357 Mag. in the top load of each as far as one shot stops. Again, FWIW.

IMO where the 357 Mag. really shines is as a bedstand gun for a guy who wakes up not too groggy to actually comprehend what's going on and where no little kids are present in the house. For a gun you can just grab and shoot, a 4" 686 filled with either top loads or 110 grain Winchester white box for something that won't kill your next-door-neighbor, is the best.

Full house 357 mag loads are no joke. I've seen handloaded 125s north of 1600 fps from a 6" GP100.



Take a look at some of the serious 125gr commercial ammo out there.

Buffalo Bore - 4" S&W, 1603 fps

Doubletap - 4" Ruger, 1600 fps

Underwood - 1600 fps.

I'm a big fan of 9mm. But comparing 9mm to 357 really only works if you compare watered-down 357 ammo in a short revolver.

I shoot the 125 gr Barnes TAC-HP's to an even 1400 fps out of my old Colt first gen Trooper, it's a 4" blue gun, and it's muzzle blast and noise, along with performance would spell sure doom to any crackhead that caught one of those slugs.

Gunner

Looks like I'll be in the Colt Trooper business again. I got it off a GB auction. The finish is a little rough, but It has the original wood grips and the wide hammer.

I'm thinking about picking up some of the Thunderheads for the .357 and stuffing some cases for the hog hunt.

The most effective handgun round currently on the commercial market is the Federal .357 Magnum 125 grain jacketed hollow point (357B). The .357 Federal load has more stopping power than any other handgun bullet including more powerful rounds such as the .44 Magnum. All experienced revolver men should carry the Federal 357B in a .357 Revolver, or the Remington full-power 125 grain semi-jacketed hollow point is just as good (R357M1).

The 357B has one warning though. The .357B along with other .357 Magnum cartridges have a large kick that may make it uncomfortable for some people to carry. The noise is also an issue, some shooters may not be comfortable with the loud noise it produces compared to other rounds. There are lower recoil rounds for the .357 on the market though for people who do not feel they want to carry the .357B in a revolver, in addition they will have less kick that will make it easier to fire off more rounds with better accuracy. Every .357 load has a good amount of stopping power for self-defense purposes.

In descending order of severity of recoil (i.e. the Silvertip kicks the most) I recommend the Winchester Silvertip 145 grain JHP (X357SHP), The Remington Golden Saber 125 grain JHP (GS357MA), Federal 110 gr. JHP (357D), Remington Medium Velocity 125 grain Semi-Jacketed Hollow point (R357M11) and the Cor-Bon 110 grain JHP. The latter two are excellent rounds I strongly recommend for .357 Magnum 2.5" and 3" barrel snub-nose revolvers like the S&W Models 66, 19, 65, 13, the Colt King Cobra, the Ruger GP100 and especially the small-frame Ruger SP101. If you still find that your .357 kicks too much, carry the Cor-Bon .38 Special+P 110 grain JHP discussed above. Two or three hits with good .38+P slugs beat any number of misses with .357 slugs.

Caution: Shooters that are using factory wood stocks on Smith and & Wesson along with Taurus .357 revolvers should get a set of rubber replacement grips. Ruger and Colt .357 Magnums come factory-equipped with recoil-absorbing ergo dynamic rubber grips, and the S&W along with the Tuarus put wood grips on their .357 versions. The control between the two types is substantial when firing rounds. Compact rubber grips from Uncle Mike's or Pachmayr work well with .357 revolvers. They are inexpensive and will cut down on any firing issues, along with increased accuracy after replacing the wood stock.

Other Good .357 Magnum Loads to Consider

The 125 grain jacketed hollow points by Cor-Bon, Winchester, and CCI are all good stoppers. The CCI Blazer 125 grain jacketed hollow-point is a very good buy, both for practice and self-defense use. The 110 grain jacketed hollow points by Winchester, CCI and Remington are all good for use in snub-nose revolvers, or for those sensitive to recoil. You never go wrong with a 110-125 grain .357 jacketed hollow point from the Big Five. All are great stoppers.

Crappy .357 Magnum loads you should not carry for self-defense.

Never carry soft-points, semi-wadcutters, or any of the 158 grain or 180 grain jacketed hollow points - these are solely for hunting or target use. Stick to jacketed hollow points under 150 grains in weight. The heavier bullets kick heavily and will shoot high and confuse you. All-lead bullets are okay for practice but you will have to spend twice as long cleaning your gun.

- See more at: http://gundata.org/blog/post/best-handgun-caliber-and-round-for-self-defense/#sthash.kCQgo7Ym.dpuf

That'll work CT, I'm gonna bring my old Colt Trooper revolver for the newer Coppers at the hog hunt to shoot, along with the old Veteran Leo's such as ET.

Gunner

Sorry, but this assertion is based on what?

What are your guys thoughts on the Winchester silver tip load in the 357.

I'm not impressed with it, the speed is slow and expansion is unimpressive.

For self defense its a decent load. I've never seen it fail to expand ever. It has considerably less muzzle flash than any of the 125's and because velocity is a little down (1200fps-ish), recoil is about the same as the 125's and penetration is deeper. Stll, even with less muzzle flash, its still a lot of muzzle flash.

Really there are very few .357 loads that are bad for self defense, but they all have that horrendous muzzle flash.

JUST A THOUGHT, YOU MIGHT CONSIDER HERE!
Id suggest you might want to say that the current info available on the results of shootings indicates that

"the particular load has the best volume of confirmed positive documentation under real world conditions"

mostly due to both a long time frame of its use and wide availability and use, of that particular revolver and load.
now why would I say that?
well I,d agree that the 357 mag revolver loaded with hollow point ammo has a long tradition and known expectation of producing results when used as a good main stopper.
yet I don,t think any sane person will argue that there are not some alternative cartridges that can and do produce a greater degree of effective wound damage ,resulting from a single bullet impact, which by definition should logically result in their use, being , defined as more effective.
( NOT necessarily the same thing as,
"The most effective handgun round currently on the commercial market"}
especially if the results are measured in any survey in a way that might reduce the stated effectiveness due to either significantly lower numbers being used, or fewer shots actually impacting center mass on the target , then your not so much measuring the cartridge and bullet effectiveness ALONE but the frequency of effective use of that particular rather common, anti personnel system.
the reason I,d point that out is simply my field experience , on game, where I see noticeably faster incapacitation of deer and hogs with a single well placed hit from the more powerful 41mag and 10mm and 44 mag revolvers.
obviously that's not the same as shooting people , but people are not a target Id want to test on either.
put a different way, saying a 357 mags the most effective is a bit like stating
'by far , its a proven fact that pick-up trucks move more plywood than any other vehicle"
based on the fact that theres tens of millions of pick-up trucks..... and ignoring the fact that probably 99% of all plywood at some point was loaded on and transported by 18 wheel trucks or trains.
I,m not even trying to say the 357 mag is not effective , but I think the results don,t get calculated based solely on one shot center mass , shooting and single hit results alone

Not my experience with the silver tip in 357, expansion was minimal and penetration was not up to 357 standards by a good margin. Not a very good bullet or load in my humble opinion.

The difference could be as simple as how old the sampling is. I tested the 145gr Silvertip on ballistic gelatin in either '91 or '92; that's the last time i can recall using that load. Back in the '80's I killed a few critters with it, never had any specific complaints. Maybe its not as good as it used to be. Back when i tested it on Jell-o, i recall expansion being the least of it's problems. Although i expected it (being 145gr) to penetrate better in pure gelatin, it was still quite adequate.

But like I said, i havent used it in decades. Although the .357 was my first handgun, I left it by the wayside years ago. If im hunting, i prefer a .41 mag or larger, an for defense, the .357 doesnt really do anything my .45 doesnt do except make a lot of noise and make a big flash.

The Winchester White Box 357 mag with 110 gr bullets should be a good carry load for defense . The load i carry in my 686 is the Speer 158 GR Gold Dot with Win 296

Nice Revolver, the L frame S&W is the height of .357 evolution.