What to do? Forgive me, but I thought of epoxy and a Savage 99 rear Weaver style base ground to fit underneath on the frame, rather than drill and tap. You guys have it figured out already, so what should I do?

http://www.crimsontrace.com/01-7100

This is one way

Epoxying a base to that pistol is a great way to ruin it. Your light will drop off under recoil, even screw fastened mounts are weak due to the thin metal of the dust cover.

They make integral rail 1911s for a reason.

Crimson Trace just e-mailed me a notice that they are now making a triggerguard mounted GREEN lazer for 1911 pistols. I have hinted not so subtley that this is what Safariman wants for either his upcoming birthday or Fathers day.

Not being able to easily add a light plus a lazer all coming on with one switch or button is why my first "go to" gun in the bedroom is our SU-16 with a Surefire Zenon bulb light and lazer combo that come on together with one switch flip, and are sighted in to the rifle. That light and lazer with 31 rounds of 62gr HP 223 ammo is a much better solution, to my mind, than any handgun can be.

That said, if I get the green lazer onto my RIA 10mm, that will make it a far more effective piece than it was before for late hours work. Daytime too, as green lazers are far more visible in daylight hours than are the red ones.

That unit, with one of the CT lazergrips, would be pretty skookum.

There is also an isreali grip "overgrip" that slides over your drame and incorporates a pic rail

I'm not normally this guy but I'm going to have to suggest selling it and buying one that already has a rail. Or better yet, keeping it and buying one with a rail....

Link to that adapter

1912 rail adapter

Add some technique training to your pistol shooting. I am not sure which is in vogue these days...



or:

Here is another option:

Surefire MR07 Integral Rail Light Mount for Colt 1911 Gov't Model



Or this:

LTG-701 LIGHTGUARD� FOR KIMBER, RUGER AND SMITH & WESSON 1911 PISTOLS

WOW, this has been a VERY informative thread to me as well as the OP. Many more options for lighting up a non rail 1911 than I had imagined.

I am guessing that there are many, many folks who are like me in that they really like the 1911 they have, don't want to try another one, (my RIA Tac 10 is a 1 inch at 25 yards shooter and with its ramped barrel etc. handles my stout handloads easily) but want to light things up a bit. Make a very nice gun more universally useful and easier to hit with in low light.

I just thought of another idea. There used to be a few companies who made a grip which had as a part of it an extension, a raised platform with a picatinny rail that rode just above the slide of the pistol, but since it was atatched to the grip frame, it was not battered to pieces (nor the scope or light atop it) by the slide banging around on each and every shot.

Something to think about when adding a light, or light rail:

1 - Holster options just narrowed down to just a couple; none of which I like at all (but you may). Options for an un-mounted light gun with an accessory rail are a little better, but still much less than non-rail 1911's.

2 - When you have a light mounted on your pistol, whatever you shine the light on, you're pointing your gun at. So if you're searching your house and you have family in there, then you may end up pointing a loaded firearm at one of your loved ones.

Just a couple of things to think about.

That is why a weapon mounted white light is not a replacement for having a handheld light. To many people think slapping a white light onto a rail is the solution to all low light tactics but it is just the tip of the iceberg.

...and you are showing your adversary EXACTLY where you are and likely where your 10 ring is.

Kevin how do you change your name? I want to change mine as well!

Do you have a link?

Awesome! Thanks.

Same here. Last I checked into the possibility, options were few and all involved lots of work and alteration. Such great innovations.

IME weapon mounted lights are most useful for AFTER you've found the bad guy, not while you're looking for him.

Unless one is using a lit up rifle, away from ones body, as the leading of the snooping piece. While sitting here in my La Z Boy, that is my 'plan'.... to keep the gun away from me and let the rifle and light be the point man in the search and (maybe) destroy. Admitedly, not every well thought out plan concieved in comfort comes to fruition in the heat of the situation, but the other issue, pointing one's gun at family is not a problem here as it is now just the two of us, people-wise.

Most likley, our early warning system of a Dachsund and a Lab and a Coyote Dog Mix will have any perpetrator somewhat pinned or at least largely located for us. Milo the 4 lb Wiener dog will already have him about half et up by the time I get around to putting him out of his misery with whatever firearm I manage to grab

That's an interesting solution. Looks rather bulky, but it's kinda neat...on someone else's gun.

Weapon mounted lights are a very specific tool. They are a CQB room clearing tool and that's about it. They should never be used for searching or looking over areas where a threat has not been determined.

If I were on a SWAT team, I'd most certainly have one. For home defense, I don't want one because I want to search with my light while holding my pistol in a safe direction; I have kids and dogs in the house. Both of which can at times make random noises in the middle of the night. I don't want to EVER point a gun at one of my family.

So normal flashlight used in the normal way with the gun pointed safely away. Once a threat is identified, then handgun and light come into alignment.

For concealed carry, again you'll be using the flashlight very independently of the pistol.

I just think for 99% of civilian use the weapon light is more liability than asset.

I wouldn't want that on a carry gun, but for a nightstand gun it looks pretty good.

I had my gunsmith mount a rail on both of my Springfield 1911-A1 pistols. Surefire X300 lights on both.
They don't fit into holsters with the lights mounted, but will fit into a Blackhawk Kydex holster if you slip the light off.
Frankly, I don't holster these any more. They are dedicated home defense/camping defense pistols now.
As soon as I get the Docter reflex sight mounted, it will be, in my ever so humble opinion, just perfect.
oh, and I have zero problem illuminating a bump in the night, while pointing the 1911 at what is causing me angst.

Sam, is that a Dawson Rail? You used to be able to send your 1911 frame to them for installation but I didn't see it on their website.

Thanks for the discussion guys, I appreciate your experience. This is a 38 Super, and I won't be replacing it with one with a rail.

Mannlicher,
exactly how did your gunsmith attach the rail? Has it been used and does it come loose?

Novak can add rails to the dust cover too FB. And holsters are more abundant than some would leave to believe. As far as "searching" with a weapon mounted light. The method we are taught is to keep the muzzle pointed at the floor and use the "halo" of the light to illuminate. I typically also utilize a hand held light combined with my weapon light if I need to get a brighter picture of a certain area

Can you clarify your thoughts on this a little? In my mind a civilian (anyone in plain clothes/off duty) is far less likely to be actively searching for a bad guy and more likely need to confirm a threat. I will always preach carrying a handheld light in addition to a weapon mounted but dont see how a weapon light can ever be a liability.

I dont fall back on the concept of the light illuminating me as a target. In my observations and experience it would be extremely rare for a bad guy to shoot well enough from any distance to center punch you based on where your light was. If the bad guy has that ability to that, where you are holding the light will probably not have a lot of effect on the outcome of the fight.

it is a Dawson rail. My gunsmith attached it.

Fireball, he drilled and tapped the pistol for the three attaching screws. Looks like he used epoxy as well. It has withstood hundreds of rounds, and is at tight as a tick.

Addressing the issue of the weapon light making YOU the target, it has been my experience that the X300 in the face kinda blinds folks.

I agree, just like Varmint said above, and thanks for the info Sam.

That's been my thinking, too, i.e., that a high intensity light to the face would be very disorienting. It's hard to look directly at it, let alone aim a gun at it.

As for it being a liability, my practice is to keep the trigger finger outside the trigger guard while working the light in search mode.

I'm lukewarm on the light on the handgun, for the reason ET gave.

There's so many variables that can affect this issue, that you have to keep in mind. Cops have to go catch azzhats in buildings; Hopefully they brought friends and a dog when they have to go on offense.

An armed citizen most likely will be investigating a noise. In those cases things are extremely fluid. You point the light the wrong direction and turn it on, and you're silhouetted and an easy target. Point it a different direction two seconds later and the bad guy is blinded, throws down his gun/knife and gives up. And what you can do depends on state laws, too, and the exact situation.

Besides that, if you have the rail empty on the pistol, you can mount all sorts of cool things, like a bayonet, a flare gun, or a mini-crossbow...

Most people should be used to walking around their houses in the dark without the aid of any light. Plus, they know where all the light switches are so they can do things like illuminate the halls and stairways. It is really one of the last places where one should need a weapon mounted light. I don�t leave a light affixed to any of the 3 handguns I use for defense purposes. I have a light I can mount to the rail of 2, but I don�t leave it attached. I don�t like bulking up, adding weight and cluttering guns. By the way, I do not leave the house without a good flashlight, and I use it all the time, even while the sun is shining. Also, while I do not have guns placed all over my house, I have a fair amount of flashlights within relatively easy reach at all times.

I have been toying with the idea of getting a combo light/laser, but am also torn. I can see the benefit of having a blinding light being in the face of the intruder, however you need to know where the intruders eyes are, and if it is one alone, etc.
On the other hand I know that the familiar plants, furniture and corners we know so well in our house may appear to move places when in a high stress level situation.
I am more in line of thought of using the gun to clear my way into securing wife and kids in a safe place, (most likely my bedroom) and calling the cops.
I like tex n cal's idea of a mini crossbow to avoid waking up the neighbors

NOT having a light on a nightstand gun is beyond stupid. A guy in GA last week shot a guy in his backyard that was moving toward him in the dark. That "guy" was an elderly man with alzheimer's, lost and looking for help. A light, and a little common sense, would have made for a much happier ending for all concerned.

I've got a Galco holster for my railgun. It is very tight though.

I'm not an expert, but totally agree. I'm an NRA Instructor & pick up some extra income teaching private security officers how to shoot. Lights just seem like a liability to me. I have either night sights or lasers on most of my defensive handguns. While lights on handguns are cool they make for excellent targets.

That tragedy could have been prevented without a weapon mounted light. I lots of illumination options, none of which is mounted to my weapon.

ok, how about this? Folks that like a light can use one on their HD pistol. Those that don't, have the option to NOT use on theirs.
Now we can move past casting aspersions, and making 'light' about the choices of others.

Who is making light of other? Actually no one is, opinions and facts are being stated.

A light becoming a target for the bad guy to shoot at is pretty funny.

1-Going looking for bad guys in the dark is dangerous and there's a fair chance you're gonna get hurt. You better come to peace with that fact before you start. I see it all the time at work, people trying all sorts of stupid tricks to try and eliminate all the risk they can when what they need to be doing is getting to work and getting the job done. If you wanna be safe and not get hurt, don't go looking for bad guys in the dark.
2-Yes, a light in a bad guys face will hurt his eyes. But if you think that you can stop a determined aggressor with a flashlight you're wrong. Heck, half the arguments here are about pocket guns being too small.....A .380 won't stop a bad guy but a flashlight will? Gimme a break.
3-Unless you know what you're doing and practice it there are good odds that any light you use is going to illuminate YOU at some point. So holding it above or beside you is a good idea, but not one I'd rely on. The further the light is away from right in front of you, the more likely you're gonna catch splash from it and be lit up.
4-What are you gonna do when the bad guy gives up? You need to hold a light, gun and phone. Unless you've got a light on your gun.
5-The idea of holding a rifle with a light up and away from your body is stupid. As if Mr.Badguy isn't gonna figure out that someone is holding that gun that's mysteriously floating around in the air, assuming he hasn't already seen you from ambient light and died giggling.
6-All the theoretical situations people come up with usually ignore ambient light. No matter what flashlight you use, most people will be backlit the second they step outside their bedroom anyway.

You make some great points about the strengths and weaknesses about lights mounted on guns. Regardless of how it stacks up, I like a light on a gun out here on the farm because it makes it a lot easier to see your target when you've got varmints running amok.

If I think there is someone prowling inside or outside of my home I am not turning on a light that gives my position away. I know my area even in the dark.

That's pretty much my thoughts. A cop with a light is going into a strange place and has to see where he's going, I don't. I'm at home and know every inch by heart. In a hide and seek situation whoever gives away their position by turning on a light first loses.

Assuming there was something that made you investigate in the first place - most folks don't wake from a sound sleep and decide to do an armed search of their house for no reason, although I'm sure at least one or two here do.

Anyway, something alerted you. I figure it's best to sit tight and wait, ambush them if they become a threat. Or if you simply have to take a proactive stance, creep silently, stalk them in the darkness since you have the home field advantage. You know that they, or something, is out there - they don't know you've been alerted unless you do something to let them know.

Everybody will have a different take on this, but my job is to protect my life first and property second. If you hear them carting off your refrigerator and unbolting the doors, okay, they are occupied and you can go get'em. But I'm not particularly eager to go on a house clearing mission - I'll wait and blow them away from hiding if they get far enough in the house to present themselves as an immediate threat to me.



On a different note - the best burglar reactive defense I have heard of is a guy who wired several lights in his house into one switch just beside his bed. If he heard a noise or was alerted, he just flipped the switch and the living room and other places lit up. If someone was inside they immediately knew they were discovered and hopefully would vamoose, but if he had to go on a search and destroy mission he could stay in the darker areas and see out into the lighted areas.


Avoidance first, confrontation second. And if you must confront, tactics should be designed to give the other guy NO chance at all and stack the odds in your favor every way you possibly can.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm a firm believer in them and IMHO, none of the arguments against hold water. Especially for my purposes. If I leave the bedroom to investigate a noise n the middle of the night, my wife is behind a locked door with a 12ga and her cell phone. ANYTHING that I might encounter will probably need to be shot. Obviously, no one arguing against them has needed to manipulate a firearm and a light at the same time very often.

Obviously, no one arguing that it makes you a target has ever been in the dark, with their eyes fully acclimated to the darkness and had a modern LED light shined in their face.

Just do what manlicher did and get busy learning to maximize its efficiency in low light.

Shoot, move, shoot again.

Try to operate the light, turning it off and on by using your support side thumb.

Try to never use your trigger finger, or any other finger, as to prevent a sympathetic reflex discharge or making a mistake by accidentally pulling the trigger when you meant to turn on the light. In high stress, without good training and practice, dumb stuff happens. That's why I try to only use my off side thumb to work the light.

They are a stellar tool and great advantage when used properly.

Can someone direct me to any examples of this happening in a non military setting? Also with that in mind would the outcome have been any different if the officer/good guy was using a hand held light. I know we all like to think we are ninjas but the reality I see is that a weapon mounted light would be about the last thing to give us away if it is being used properly. If a bad guy is going to initiate an attack and is using the light as a target indicator there is probably enough back light to illuminate us regardless of where the light is mounted. Also it is rare to operate in total darkness, usually my flashlight is augmenting the available light and the opportunity to use darkness for concealment is not really there. Besides why is everyone assuming a bad guy will actually have the ability to hit where the light is? Generally speaking the average bad guy cannot hit crap once you get past a few yards. When a weapon mounted light is used properly it does offer many advantages that would not otherwise be available.

Recently I had to search an unfinished attic area, I was using one hand to hold a rafter to avoid falling through the roof. Needing one hand for a light and another for the gun would have made it a whole lot tougher.

As usual Mac is spot on. In fact our training with pistol lights is centered around only using our support side thumb to work the switch.

We've got a good local pistolsmith, I'll go give him an earful. I'm a light on the gun guy.

Well this discussion came up at work yesterday and I was shocked to hear a few cops repeat the aspect of "its going to make you a target".

It only took a few minutes of some force on force with airsoft and it was pretty quickly settled on backlight being pretty much identical regardless of where the weapon it. It is simply rare that a room is so dark your curtain of light is going to totally conceal you. Then we went into the tunnel and there was no question how much better the accuracy and rate of fire was using a weapon mounted light. After all we carry guns and point them at people because we might need to shoot them right??

I'm bumping this thread to see if anybody has anything to add to this discussion.

After speaking to people whose opinions I respect, along with some other folks with actual relevant experience, my opinion on weapon-mounted lights is split. I think I'm going to mount a light on my nightstand gun but continue to carry a separate light while out and about.

My (probably flawed) reasoning:

1. Outside the home, I need light in many situations where I don't want to even draw my gun, let alone point it.

2. Outside the home, the bulk of citizens who need their guns are at extremely short distances from the threat and are planning to draw and immediately shoot. The attacker is already attacking. Turning on a light, any light, isn't going to happen.

3. Outside the home, I don't anticipate going searching for bad guys. (I live in town, and even on my own property, if I hear a noise outside or in the detached garage, I'll call 911 and sit tight.)

4. Inside the home, I don't anticipate going searching for bad guys. If we hear something downstairs (the entire family sleeps upstairs), I'll call 911 and sit tight.

5. Inside the home, if I do go searching, it will be after walking across the hall into my daughters' room, flipping on the light and taking attendance. (The only rooms upstairs are 2 bedrooms and a bathroom.) I know my house well and can move easily without light if I choose to do so. Plus there is a bunch of ambient light from outside street lights and porch lights. If I do need light, I don't mind pointing my light and gun at everything/everyone that I encounter.

I'm not sure that it makes a significant difference either way, but basically, given the layout of my house, I think the advantages of a mounted light outweigh the disadvantages. For inside the home, I think most of us would be better off making other preparations:

1. Have current eyeglasses on your nightstand if you need corrective lenses. Many contact lens wearers forget this.
2. Have shoes/slippers/moccasins next to your bed. Walking across linoleum/tile/hardwood floors in the dark and stepping on a lego or other toy, hurts.
3. Have a family safety plan in place. Rehearse it. If your hear somebody in your house, what is "Plan A" to protect everyone? What might make "Plan A" unworkable? So, what is "Plan B"? What is "Plan C"?
4. If everyone is upstairs, do you have a safe way to get to the ground in the event that a fire blocks the stairs? We're much more likely to encounter a fire than an intruder. A ladder, not a gun, may be what saves your life.
5. Keep a cell phone in your room in the event the bad guy takes the land line off the hook in another room.

Anyhoo, I enjoyed reading through this thread and would love to see some additional discussion.

Lights can and are discussed to the end of the earth. They are greatly beneficial when you have to point a weapon and cover a threat. So beneficial in fact, that Taser builds the light into the unit itself.

But you will never meet anybody teaching tactics (that isn't retarded) tell you that a WML is a substitute for a handheld. The only time that would be the case is during the time you are clearing caves in Afghanistan, or clearing a crack house during the ride along your cop friend invited you to. If that is the case, by all means, feel free to point your weapon at everything that isn't your team mate.

As far as being a target, Bluedreaux and varmintsinc covered it. It's armchair if you're talking about home defense. You're going to need to illuminate your threat. Anybody that doesn't think positive identification of a suspected threat is important, should try and speak to that legless dude in South Africa.

I have heard all the debates regarding how to hold a light. First it was under the gun. Then it was to the side. Then some companies tried to make a few bucks selling a light that could be incorporated into your grip. Then people were told to hold high and away! Reason being, the perp may think you're the Green Giant and shoot that direction while you calmly use your light to illuminate the subject and eliminate the threat... And the best I have heard? Don't hold it high and away because most inexperienced shooters will drop rounds low and left due to trigger jerk and anticipation of recoil... Umm... yeah. Let's develop a tactic based on the assumption that our enemy sucks. No thanks.

Most people that use WML for a living will opt out of them for one reason and one reason only. Bulk added to the duty belt. That's a fact jack. Carry Batman's belt around long enough and you start finding reasons to not carry schit instead of reasons to carry schit. Not always of course. But very often this will be the reasoning behind not having one for day to day carry.

In the house? I like one on the pistol and one in my hand. The one in my hand is usually one of the kind that runs on a 6 volt battery. Yeah, the big ones with springs. They're cheap, light schit up nice and are big enough that your kids can't lose them. I put them all over the house for day to day use and in case of emergency.

I have put light on a couple people around my home. Every time I have done so it was with the Wal-Mart special. Which is how it should be. If the need arises to have a gun on that person, it is a very simple transition.

Last thought; if you are concerned about illumination and don't have tritiums, you're putting carriages in front of horses IMO.



Travis

My flashlight stash has been decimated by kids losing them and giving them away to friends. I bought this pack just yesterday at Sam's Club for twenty bucks. They WILL light stuff up and are much handier than the 6 volt lanterns you're hauling around. I can't speak for longevity. They take AAA batteries (3) though, and you can find them anywhere.

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/led-flashlight-3-pack-with-batterie/prod11770317.ip?navAction=

Much wisdom in what you're saying about flashlight tactics.

I'm sure those are good lights, but the reason I use the 6 volt variety is the same reason gas stations tie pipes and toilet seats to the bathroom key.

It's prison rules in my house.



Travis

lol

Nobody ever thinks about what they're gonna do AFTER they find a bad guy and that's where a WML really earns it's pay.

Find bad guy. Bad guy throws up his hands and hits the dirt. Now what?
Execute him and dig a shallow grave or call 911?

If you opt to call 911...try keeping a handheld light pointed at bad guy, gun pointed at bad guy and fumble with a phone. With a WML you can flip on the light, point gun and then carry on with business much easier.

I look for bad guys with a handheld. When I find them, the handheld gets put up.

My flashlight stash has been decimated by kids losing them and giving them away to friends. I bought this pack just yesterday at Sam's Club for twenty bucks. They WILL light stuff up and are much handier than the 6 volt lanterns you're hauling around. I can't speak for longevity. They take AAA batteries (3) though, and you can find them anywhere.

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/led-flashlight-3-pack-with-batterie/prod11770317.ip?navAction=

i use the same things around the house. I do have a glock 21 with a light on a rail, can turn it off and on, or it is touch activated as a night stand gun. I could never find a holster i liked for it. And I don't think i like the light on it that much anyway for a variety of reasons. It's there so if something makes it into the bedroom and avoids killing themselves tripping over the dogs i can light them up. But i have never liked providing an aiming point for someone.

thats probably one of the better ideas of all.