Is on the Encore Channel right now. One of the best of all the "Modern" Westerns.
Then followed by "A Fistful of Dollars" and then "The Gauntlet"

I know, I know.... The Gauntlett is not that great of an Eastwood Movie.
But it sure beats the hell out of watching those Liberal [bleep] on SNL any old day.

My favorite seen is where Gene Hackman tries to get "English Bob" to take the loaded handgun in the jail cell from the dumb ass biographer.

Of course, ole English Bob doesn't know the Six Shooter is loaded!

"We all have it coming, kid."

Best movie Clint ever made, IMO.

That's the line!!!

Yep! Definately one of his all time Top Three Movies, in my Book. My favorite is "Pale Rider" followed by "The Outlaw Josey Wales!

My favorite of his "new" movies is Definately "Grand Torino"

Unforgiven
The Outlaw Josey Wales
Million Dollar Baby
Gran Torino

I can swap the order on 3 and 4, but IMO Unforgiven stands a head above Josey ("You gonna pull them pistols, or whistle 'Dixie'?") ("Dyin' ain't much of a living.") , and the first two stand head and shoulders above everything else he did.

I'm sort of a "Joe Kidd" fan

Loved Million Dollar Baby, untill the end, of course. Never saw that plot twist coming!

I was lucky enough to get to meet Mr. Eastwood in 1992, while he was here in TX scouting locations for the movie "A Perfect World" . Very nice fellow, and pretty humble, too.
He stopped at the LGS that my buddie owned looking to buy old Colt Single Actions.

I was halfway through this when I remembered I didn't like the Clint Eastwwod version either.

"It's a hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have."

It's a great movie. That line sums it up, even when they had it coming.

Best western ever made.



Travis

I agree...

Travis, did you get my text, this was less than 5 hours ago...

Agreed.

Except for all the other best Western movies ever made.... True Grit(both versions), Shane, Silverado, Wyatt Earp, Tombstone, High Noon, Rio Bravo, No Country For Old Men, and so many other Contenders...

But I hold Unforgiven pretty high up in that pantheon...

In the movie Clint borrowed the kids S&W Schofield and killed a bunch of guys in the bar. I had a Uberti Schofield at one time in .45 Long Colt. It was a heck of a shooter, We use to shoot at jugs and cans at 100yds and the Schofield always won. I sold that gun in one of those "why did I ever do that" moments...

I was watching Lonesome Dove on TV tonight for the 100th time. I'm a western movie fanatic and LD is at the top of my list of best westerns. My favorite part is where Gus slaps the surly bartender up side the head with his Dragoon pistol...after he breaks his nose on the bar.

Tombstone was the best Western ever made.

Best western movie line ever: by Val Kilmer as Doc Holiday

" I'm afraid the strain was more than he could bare "

I grew up on Clint Eastwood and John Wayne westerns but never really cared for Unforgiven and still don't. IMHO, Josey Wales is Clint's best and one of the best all time.

Tom Selleck's westerns are wonderful and "Last Stand at Saber River" and "Crossfire Trail" are the reason why I own nearly a dozen topless Colt replicas.

Tombstone is excellent and I happen to like the remake of "3:10 to Yuma" quite a bit. Enough to get a Schofield and make a replica of Charlie Prince's "Flames of Hell" rig, from the pattern offered by the maker who did the leatherwork for the movie.

I am afraid I did not like it that much. The underlying statement that I got out of the movie was: even good men do bad things when they are drunk, and that is OK. A little too much of modern thought for me.

Josey Wales is almost the perfect movie, except for the poor acting of the Kid. The character actors in that movie were classic.

The Searchers is an all time favorite.

I still like The Wild Bunch! ~ ~ ~
All the rest are drugstore cowboys.

The Outlaw Josey Wales is the single best Clint Eastwood movie he made, in my opinion. I do believe I heard him express the same opinion in an interview. One heck of a good movie that was done well on all levels. Kinda like Burt Reynolds in Deliverance, one of their all time best individual performances that will stand the test of time, yet not quite good enough at the time they were released to win the top honors. Someone noted John Wayne, he had a ton of movies I'd love to watch most anytime. My favorite is True Grit, followed by the Jeff Bridges remake. Though, the Jeff Bridges version was most remarkable and probably the better of the two, I still feel loyalty to the John Wayne version.

"Hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have."

I'm still trying to figure out why this is on the handgun forum.

You should try and get to the bottom of that.


Travis

yep. I watched it last night too. one of the great all time movies, period.

moral of the story is don't give clint whiskey.

My fault, I was in a hurry when I created this Post. Was surfing the Fire while watching Unforgiven.

Agree.

disagree, it is 2nd best. however ... you shouldn't take that to mean that I like tombstone any less ...

You'd have to be born without a penis to be concerned about where you posted your thought.



Travis

'Hang 'em High' is pretty good too but 'The Good, The Bad and The Ugly' is the greatest western of all time.

Nobody has mentioned "Two Mules For Sister Sarah"

It's one of my favorite Eastwood "oldies"

+1. Favorite part of mine is at the end where he's telling them all not to shoot at him or he'll kill them and their families and burn their houses down.

i like the entire kaleidoscope of Eastwood westerns...

in my mind, what "makes them" is the very clever, succinct one-liners throughout the drama...


they were so memorable, that from the mid 70's onward, whenever Pat (scenarshooter), and i would call each other to visit, we would often start our conversation with some verbatim--or creatively modified--'Eastwood line'--replete with "the voice" to break the ice...it was always a fun way to start a nice visit--visits about the next hunt, what we were working on, etc., etc.

a few years back, on one rainy Memorial day weekend, wifey and i went to Wallyworld to buy a couple movies for the weekend. i selected a couple of Eastwood's films. while shopping, we ran into the local police chief, and subsequently, wife and he began to visit. when he saw the flicks in my hand, he laughed and mentioned that they were some of his very favorites. i had to laugh too--because no matter who you are, they are easily accepted as a fundamental part of our culture and upbringing...

The Searchers is the best movie ever made. Since it's also a western, it is the best western ever made. The Outlaw Josey Wales, High Plains Drifter, Kelly's Heroes and The Good, the Bad and the Ugly are all better Eastwood movies than Unforgiven. Unforgiven has its moments, but it wouldn't even make my top twenty all-time westerns. Maybe the top hundred. I have to conclude that a lot of folks just haven't watched many westerns.

Gene Hackman was in quite a few westerns, but I just don't see him as a western actor. I would have liked to have seen somebody like Tom Selleck, cast against type, as Little Bill.

My wife and I are Eastwood fans but I can take or leave Unforgiven although that's one of my wife's favorite movies.

Eastwood has certainly become an American icon.

My favorite scene is near the end. Eastwood walks into a bar with a 12ga. SxS and faces down 20 bad guys including ole English Bob. little Bill

English Bob is run out of town well before that scene.



Travis

Yes and Yes .... Grand Torino is 95 % great ... except for the ending.

should have said Little Bill

"All right, I'm coming out! Any man I see out there, I'm gonna kill him! Any sonofabitch takes a shot at me.. I'm not only gonna kill him, I'm gonna kill his wife, all his friends, and burn his damn house down!"

I know that Eastwood didn't write that line, but you got to admit it was delivered with the utmost sincerity. I was even afraid to leave the theater until the lights came on...

the searchers was a great film, but he really should have shot her. The only reason he didn't was natalie was just to dang cute.

"Pale Rider" is a rendition of "Shane". "Shane" was an excellent film. "Pale Rider" is mediocre at best.

Clint Eastwood said that the best movie he's ever made was "The Outlaw Josey Wales". I agree. His second best film was the original "Dirty Harry".

"Play Misty for Me" was an excellent film.

Yeah, I don't think there's anything much better on film than Lonesome Dove. The characters seem more real than almost anything else I have seen. Of course, it's technically not a movie, but a miniseries.

Also not a "movie," but Deadwood also is unbeatable for the same reason.

I think the John Wayne True Grit is, by far, the better version. For one thing, there is a lot more suspense at the end. John Wayne in that movie, like many others, was just playing himself, and John Wayne could play John Wayne better than anyone else.

So many of the movies mentioned above are great, and I love almost all of Clint Eastwood's movies, but my favorite of his Western's might be "For a Few Dollars More." Never been a better ending than in that movie.

One of the best one-liners in Eastwood's movies was not from him, but about him in Outlaw of Josey Wales after he laments that "It seems like once I get to likin' someone, they ain't around for long." Indian Chief responds: "I notice when you get to dislikin' someone, they ain't around for long neither." Spitting on the carpet bagger and then asking "How is it with stains?" was great too.

I love all of the Eastwood Westerns, but there are some other great ones too, including the classics: Shane; Wild Bunch; Butch and Sundance; High Noon; etc...

My favorites from relatively-recent years are Open Range and Appaloosa.

The Professionals is one no one seems to ever have heard of, but is fantastic.

One Eyed Jacks is great.

One of my favorite movies no one ever has heard of is a Johnny Depp Western called "Deadman": Review

Paul Newman is great in Hombre.

Going back to John Wayne, a couple great ones not mentioned above are Red River and Man Who Shot Liberty Valence.

Prolly my fav Eastwood western as well.

"Because of the damned trains"!

I still like "Once Upon A Time In the West". Scariest thing Henry Fonda did besides "On Golden Pond"....

Yep. Even if Clint doesn't agree.

I just think Unforgiven was more realistic than most any other western. He wasn't some incredibly gifted gunfighter. He didn't have nice leather. He had no interest in a "fair fight."

He was mean and had a horrible temper. The few inhibitions he had regarding morality, were completely removed by alcohol. He had to hide who he was, and the only thing special about him, was he was one of the few people with those traits that lived long.

I also like that Lil' Bill admits that all of his and English Bob's winning records were due more to alcohol and the resulting calm, than any real skill or bravery. But of course the only difference between Bob, Bill, and Munny, is Bob and Bill get caught up with their own legends, but Munny knows the truth. He was just drunk and lucky, and mean.

My favorite Eastwood movie growing up was The Outlaw Josey Wales. I liked how mean the character was and I think Eastwood borrowed from that character when he made Unforgiven.

The scene where Munny goes outside to practice, but ends up shotgunning his target, (as opposed to Josey who hones his skills into perfection) was straight out of Jose Wales. Also funny that both characters were out of "Mizzoura." People that get killed with extreme prejudice by both characters, are either rapists, or have in some way brought harm to the character's friends.

Josey Wales was a great movie, but I think Unforgiven was more greater.



Travis

I think a lot of that is due to Eastwood's maturity as an artist as time went by.

Unforgiven is 22 years old, and looks as fresh today as it did in 1992. You can't say that about his earlier work, even Josie Wales.

Damn, he's pretty old. I'm going to miss him when he's gone.

I have a hard time deciding which is the best western ever made, but in addition to the choices already listed, "Missouri Breaks" with Jack Nicholson and Marlon Brando, "The Far Country" with Clark Gable, were pretty good ones.

a lot of the filming of josey took place up around fredonia arizona and knab utah. I turkey hunt up there, and it is a trip crossing the country that you see in some of the film. Great mexican restaurant we eat at in knab filled with signed pictures of the actors taken during the filming.

So nobody thinks Lonesome Dove with Robert Duvall and Tommy Lee Jones was a great movie?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m44NQUIOaiQ

Unforgiven was an apology for all the other westerns Eastwood made in his early career. Anyway that's what was said about it when it came out.

The Outlaw Josey Wales is based on a book by Forrest Carter which was called The Rebel Outlaw Josey Wales and later Gone to Texas. Both book and movie are replete with real incidents or variations on them, from the Kansas-Missouri border during the War Between the States. Wales nemeses' Terrill and Lane are based on Jayhawkers from the Bleeding Kansas era and the later actual war. Terrill has traits of several actual historical persons, James Montgomery, Doc Jennison and other lesser-known "Jayhawkers". Senator Lane was Jim Lane, an opportunist who was an office-holder in Ohio who came to Kansas and switched to the abolitionist side before the war, was elected to the US Senate and later was a Militia General. He led a contingent of Yankee militia that sacked and burned the town of Osceola, Missouri in 1861 which was one of the incidents directly responsible for the later sacking of Lawrence by the Confederates in 1863. Lane was one of the most powerful political figures of his day and was at the head of Quantrill's death list during the Lawrence raid. He escaped death only by fleeing in his nightshirt, into a cornfield and hiding there until the Raiders retreated to Missouri.

The incident where Josey Wales' kin are killed and which precipitates his "raising the black flag" was a composite of the raids of abolitionist "Jayhawkers" into Missouri during the pre-war Bleeding Kansas era. In the movie it is implied to have happened early in the war. Either take is very accurate according to historical fact.

Bloody Bill Anderson was Capt. William Anderson, a Confederate Partisan Ranger who fought under Col. William Quantrill and later, apart from him. He is most well known for his raid on Centralia, Missouri and subsequent massacre of Union troops there in two separate incidents.

Wales himself is a composite character with traits of the James brothers and also Archie Clements, a notorious Lieutenant of Bloody Bill who was killed a year after the war was over immediately after he had surrendered to Union forces in Lexington, MO and been pardoned. Concealed Union troops shot little Archie down. Jesse James himself was shot and nearly killed while riding in to surrender after the war was over.

I could go on. The bottom line is that even though The Outlaw Josey Wales is fiction, it is very close to and based upon fact, whereas Unforgiven is not exactly. Unforgiven seems realistic, and maybe it is, however there is no doubt that TOJW is pretty close.

Lonesome Dove isn't a movie. It is a TV mini-series that many people confuse with a movie.

The Searchers is based on a novel by Alan LeMay and was heavily modified for the big screen. "Ethan Edwards" John Wayne's character, is actually "Amos Edwards" in the book and is considerably nastier and less heroic than Wayne's interpretation. In the book (SPOILERS), Edwards goes on a rampage in the Comanche camp and is implied to have ended up dead IIRC, when his horse carries him on through the camp as he kills everything in sight. The girl in the book is rescued by Marty who has lost his own girlfriend due to the never-ending search for Debra. The character of Debra is based on numerous women taken captive by the southern plains tribes during the Indian wars, most closely, Cythia Ann Parker, Peta Nocona's wife who bore Quanah Parker, one of the last leaders of the wild Comanches and later a leader of the Reservation Indians.

LeMay also wrote the novel, The Unforgiven, which was turned into a 1960 film with Audrey Hepburn, Burt Lancaster and Audie Murphy.

It has been some years since I read either book and please pardon me if the death of Amos Edwards was more explicit than I made out.

I don't suppose Australia would be a "western" movie but I love the end of Quigley where the bad guy is looking at Selleck with a quizzical look as he is dying and Quigley says "didn't say I didn't know how to use one (Colt)! Priceless.

Someone mentioned "The Professionals" earlier, excellent turn of the century time period movie. As in the "The Wild Bunch" it is interesting to see a mix of Colt single actions and 1911's used as well as 1897 Winchester pump shotguns. Kinda cool... Along the same time era I guess is Gene Hackman in "Bite the Bullet." Pretty good movie, especially if you like horses.

mini series or movie, who cares it's still the best damn western ever made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEKnOM_JisM

Probably my favorite Western, period.

I don't remember people saying at the time that Clint Eastwood was apologizing for something. I do remember reviews like this one from the Chicago Tribune:



And the New York Times



But I did do a Google search on "Clint Eastwood, apology, Unforgiven", and found this bit of foolishness:



The poster is asked to explain what he meant by it, and his response is libtard gibberish.

Streets of Laredo (1995) was probably the most realistic Western (other than Unforgiven) as far as Holywood gun play is concerned.

To me the most significant theme of Unforgiven is the re-examination of ethics and morality as a person ages and comes to grips with his own mortality. Will won�t (pun) use the services of a prostitute in honor of his deceased wife, but he will kill someone for money to support his family. The �law� keeps the peace by brokering a civil law remedy for the devaluation of a pimp�s �property�, overlooking aggravated battery, and dealing harshly with visitors. Although many of Eastwood�s movies involve blurry shades of gray, ethics and morality, and usually with an unsavory savior figure, Unforgiven took it to a more complex level, and without the savior figure. I would put High Plains Drifter a distant second as a morality play.

The shoot �em up movies are fun, but they are not very thought provoking. I liked The Outlaw Josey Wales a lot, but it is easy to get behind a guy who goes on the warpath because some bad people killed his family. The movie may contain composites of historical fact, but the complexities of the time that played into people�s actions are entirely glossed over to give the viewer permission to enjoy Wales� violent tendencies.

As for the Dirty Harry series, Eastwood plays a �modern� cop who does whatever he wants to get the job done, violating policies and civil rights whenever he deems it expedient. I would think that a lot of people posting on the Campfire would have a problem with that.

I typically don't turn to Hollywood movies, no matter how good, to establish my moral standards. Movies are for entertainment, period. 99% of action movies have scenes where the good guy commits what would be considered murder in any courtroom. If we look upon them in such a way, we would never watch another.

For pure entertainment, I do love Val Kilmer's many lines in Tombstone. My 16-year old knows 'em all by heart.

Lonesome Dove is in a class by its self. Great acting. Duval became Gus and my wife still loves Gus. Any other western with a death seen that could make you feel like you just lost a lifetime friend?
Unforgiven was great because there were no heros. The story wasn't standard western because the good guy didn't win, there was no good guy.
As a kid I really liked True Grit with Wayne. But later I realized it was a Wayne as hero movie, he was the main character, he had true grit. The Coens told the story right and did justice to the book. When I saw it I realized it was Maddie who had true grit, it was her story not Rooster's. A better telling of the tale than the Wayne version.

The whole Western movie genre can get lost in the attempt at film art. Although "Josey Wales" seems to be a favorite here, it isn't the complex film that "Unforgiven" is.

The "Western" has gone through many changes over the years as they were originally black hat vs white hat characters with horses and guns.

Hollywood has turned the Western into what most of America has accepted as western history and nothing is further from the truth. If you see how mundane and boring life really was in the days of America's settlement, it is easy to tell Westerns only depict small tidbits of actual events that were surrounded by decades of monotony and hard work.

Will Munny is not really a complex character, but a product of an era that was, for the most part lawless, and the need for survival was at a cost of almost anyone that got in your way.

When Will Munny and Ned Logan teamed up to go get the cowards that slashed a prostitute, the job was for enough money that they could start a new life and in those days, that was worth millions by today's standards.

There was no thought to right and wrong, it was already established that the cowboys were wrong and they were going to settle the score for a price and an opportunity that only money could buy.

English Bob was a similar character with a sordid past, seeking easy money as he represents the typical bully that never met someone that wasn't intimidated by his manner, until he met "Little Bill"

Little Bill was not a bad man, he was the law that Big Whiskey needed to keep order and what his past was didn't matter as his purpose was to keep them safe. All the characters were familiar with the other by reputation, but none had met before.

Unforgiven provides the meeting of the men that had for years, beat the odds and survived the lethal lifestyles they had all lived. Every one had a questionable past and this was the case with many people living in those times.

The kid was just the catalyst that was needed for this story to exist, and with very little weakness in script or acting, this movie is certainly one of the best Westerns to be cast, acted and outfitted in the true representation of that culture and time.

After the deed was done and Will Munny settled with the men that wronged him for Ned Logan's death, he disappeared into obscurity with the ill gotten money that was the basis for him to return to his earlier days of cold blooded killing.

"The Outlaw Josey Wales" doesn't quite equal all the aspects of the movie "Unforgiven" in the portrayal of what might have really happened in the "Old West". Entertainment is the primary score for these films, accuracy is secondary. Westerns have improved over the course of the years, "Unforgiven" being one that has excelled in all the categories of making a Western movie.

Previous to "Unforgiven", "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence" was ahead of it's time in accuracy of men and the life in the West. "Monte Walsh" is another that depicts an era of the cowboy and the last of the real open range. "The Shootist" is another example of a well written/acted move, although Hugh O'Brien looked too much like Wyatt Earp, the series, for that film.

We do need more good Westerns and the latest "True Grit" was a good one as was "Appaloosa". "Lone Ranger" not so much...

Agreed.

Very true comment on "Missouri Breaks." Great Western. I need to see "The Far Country." Haven't seen it.

I said above: "I don't think there's anything much better on film than Lonesome Dove. The characters seem more real than almost anything else I have seen. Of course, it's technically not a movie, but a miniseries."

"Unforgiven" is a great movie, but one of its distinguishing factors is that it did try to de-glamorize the violence. I recall, but cannot cite, an Eastwood interview from a couple decades ago, confirming this. See the review of "Deadman" I posted above. It was a similar attempt. Both were great movies. "Josey Wales" was about a man very competent at killing being forced into it. Aside from the scene with the tribe near the end, Eastwood was very eager to kill the "bad guys." In "Unforgiven," Eastwood expresses awkwardness with most instances of killing. In that sense, "Unforgiven" is different from most Eastwood Westerns. The others show far less regret for killing and are more about the intensity and suspense of the fighting scenes. "Unforgiven" is a bit different. Great, but different.

I agree with most of your comments. As I said above, "Liberty Valence" and "Appaloosa" are great ones. The latter is maybe the most realistic of all Westerns in terms of actual shooting scenes. They don't last long and are brutal. Also love "Open Range."

"Lonesome Dove" (6 hours) and "Deadwood" (probably 25 hours) are also as good as it gets IMO, but they arguably are not "movies."

Shrapnel, this not only the longest post I've ever seen you make, but it's a damn good analysis of the movie and its context within the Western genre. You even provided generous paragraph breaks. Good job!

I think that difference made the movie just a little more palatable for a certain group of people who would never, in a million years, say out loud at a party that they liked The Outlaw Josey Wales, or the Dirty Harry movies.

They would, however, be willing to say in public that they liked Unforgiven because it was "different." And I can see how, like the forum poster I cited above, a liberal might justify his view - if challenged - by saying the film deglamorized violence and therefore fit within a progressive/socialist agenda.

Eastwood would laugh, of course. Making a movie that's "different" merely means you don't want to make the same movie over and over again.

While I have a different perspective on Will and Little Bill than you, that is a nice piece of analysis!

Cheyenne,

Dirty Harry was restrained by liberals who had protected a child murderer to the detriment of the child. He knew what was right while a pussy DA and an even pussier judge had no clue of what to do because they were pussies. The liberal system that protected child killers was the reason Harry threw his badge in the pond in which the body of the dead child killer fell.

Dirty Harry and the 2 pussies:



Dirty Harry working coping with liberals:



The Outlaw Josey Wales is a film the reveals that the government can become worse than any enemy it has created. The theme of Josey Wales is as powerful as any movie I've seen, and that includes "Apocalypse Now", which is also a movie about how evil government is.

I'd doubt that either would be made today because of their themes.

LOL!

I get all that. I got it 22 years ago. I'm not glorifying the difference, just pointing out how it is different. There are many Eastwood movies I prefer to "Unforgiven." I would say though that one good thing about "Unforgiven" is how it slowly builds from nothing, with very little action all movie long, into one of the coolest, most badass Eastwood scenes when he walks into the bar with the shotgun, asks who shot his friend, shoots him, and responds to Hackman's protests that he was unarmed that, if he was going to display Eastwood's friend outside of the bar, "he should have armed himself." That being said, I like many westerns, and Eastwood westerns, more. I was just identifying how it was different.

One of my favorite Western scenes is when, in Lonesome Dove, Captain Call saw Newt being beaten by the cavalry sergeant, and rides over him and keeps attacking until the Sergeant is almost dead until Gus lassoed him. It's unlike most Western scenes in that it did not involve a gun fight, or showdown, or even a shot in the back, but just the principle that, when someone is doing something really wrong, get them down, keep them down, and don't give them a chance to get up. So many other movies, Westerns or not, try to create false suspense by having such a fight go back-and-forth. LD, in that scene and others, is superior. Capt. Call started beating the badass cavalry Sergeant, continued for a minute or so, never fired a shot, and never let him even swing at him.

Separately, it's another reference to keeping government excess at bay. LD is awesome.

Now we have gone the other direction and thrown search warrants out the door.

Yeah, this was sweeping a house of innocent unsuspected people, including scaring kids with automatic rifles, just because a bomb was exploded by someone else miles away a day earlier: Raid

Founding Fathers would have been appalled.

Founding Fathers would be firing shots....and the local reeves wouldn't be such tyrants to begin with.

Maybe, but some of those Redcoats were real bastards.

Most people just want to be left alone. Real bastards get their just due....maybe not always swiftly, but they get it.

I normally don't base my posts on other folks' remembering as they can be accurate or inaccurate, but on my own which usually aren't. Eastwood's Unforgiven was widely touted as an apology for his earlier westerns which were thought to glorify violence whereas Unforgiven supposedly didn't. I did not say that was my opinion on the subject, just that it was popular thought. I have no idea what Eastwood said on the subject. I'd read those reviews of yours but I'm just not interested.

I like your post Shrapnel and you make a compelling argument, but one that I ultimately disagree with. TOJW is fact-based for the most part whereas Unforgiven is made up for the most part. The Lone Ranger sucked donkey ass. So did Jonah Hex, unfortunately.

Most people don't know the history behind TOJW and how close it is to the truth. Even the parts about the Cherokee are lifted straight out of the history books if you care to look.

Is that the reason why you ultimately disagree with Shrapnel's post? Because you recall that one movie is based, loosely, on old, commonly accepted histories, and the other one is based on a new story?

And what does that have to do with whether Unforgiven is a good movie or not?

TEE-VEE???? what youinz doin wastin time wit TV? lets shoot guns, smoke cigars, drink beer and watch our Wifeys work in the garden, dust, and vacuum the house in their summertime shorty shorts, now THATS real visual entertainment.

Gunner

"All I have is a piece of hard rock candy. But it's not for eating. It's just for looking through."

"Hell with them fellas. Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms."

"Dyin' ain't much of a livin', boy."

"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger we've got something in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."

"I didn't surrender neither. But they took my horse and made him surrender...Now he's pullin' a wagon up in Kansas."

"We thought about it for a long time, "Endeavor to persevere." And when we had thought about it long enough, we declared war on the Union."

There are many others...
Now that is Unforgotten!

Will Munny would have killed Josey Wales in a fair fight. As much as all the characters were fun to watch in Josey wales, as a movie it is a bit weak compared to "Unforgiven".

That toothless old broad talking about a mule tailed buck while she smoked her corn cob pipe, would have been dead at least 20 years earlier in real life. A bit of creative license in the casting and portrayal in OJW doesn't destroy the movie, but leaves it behind "Unforgiven" and this was really the topic of the thread...

I saw that ending coming on fairly early. Once he started coughing blood, the ending was preordained.

L.W.

Lonesome Dove was not a movie. It was a teevee series, although a good one.

L.W.

Audie Murphy's role in "The Unforgiven" was the best acting work he ever did.

L.W.

The best western of all time?

..."Not hardly!"

I have an intense loyalty to John Wayne. After reading this whole thread I'm realizing I'm not nearly as sophisticated of a consumer of western movies as many of you. I seem to prefer John Wayne movies over the rest. "Big Jake" was the first JW movie I fell in love with as a very young boy. I really love "The Cowboys," I really wish I could hear the Duke say to me, "I'm proud of ya," like he does in his death scene. Of course, "True Grit" was fantastic: "Fill your hands you sonofabitch." I could go on and on, there is no other Hollywood movie star in history like the Duke.

I will add that I don't give a damn if "Lonesome Dove" is a movie or not it is some of the finest entertainment in existence. My wife absolutely loves Gus.

The worst thing about Lonesome Dove was that it wasn't a movie. Robert Duval deserved an Oscar for best actor and Tommy Lee Jones as supporting actor...

That's why I wouldn't categorize it with Unforgiven, too, even though it was excellent as a miniseries.

If he was drunk, for sure.

But you'd never get either of them to step into a fair fight.

John Wayne was John Wayne but none of his films had schist on Unforgiven.

And the new True Grit was insanely good.



Travis

After the new True Grit, I can't stand to watch Kim Darby in the original.

I feel the same way. Better than the original by a good margin.

I have only seen Unforgiven the one time. I am obviously in the small minority here; I just don't love it. Like many of the Eastwood westerns it just left a dark feeling. But as I said above, I have a huge loyalty to the JW westerns and those are starkly different in that regard.

I guess I seek westerns for something different than many...simple Good conquering evil/American apple pie type entertainment. It's all good.

The new "True Grit" was good. But I'm stuck in the past I guess. I like another poster's comment on the big difference between the two versions is who the story is about and who really shows the true grit--Rooster vs Maddie. The second definitely swung it to her and she was a more likable young girl than Darby. Rooster became a somewhat sad drunk with less admirable qualities. Because I was stuck in the mindset of "how is Bridges going to measure up to the Duke," I liked his character less because I had the construct of who and what Rooster was supposed to be. All that said I did like the new version.

I'd like to add that "Tombstone" is one of those westerns I never tire of. Val Kilmer has never had a performance nearly equal to that one.

The new "True Grit" stayed truer to the book, which is why I like it better than the old one.

I have not read the book. I have no doubt what you say is true. I probably should.

I still consider "Shane" as my favorite. Like "Apalossa" too.
Did I spell that right?

I though Dennis Quaid also played a different Doc Holliday pretty well in "Wyatt Earp".

I'd recommend the book for its own sake. It's a great novel. It won't make you feel any differently about the JW version of the movie, plus or minus.

How do you know the toothless old broad wasn't 42?

I think Josey would have smoked Will in a "fair fight," as in a "high noon in the street" deal. But, Will would have just waited at the out house and made short work of Josey in the real world. That is why Unforgiven is better from my perspective.

I agree. It was a really good interpretation. It is like my view of pecan pie. There are many great interpretations. (Unfortunately, there are many bad ones, too.)

It is a shame that both movies (Tombstone and Wyatt Earp) debuted at about the same time.

High Noon with Glen Ford is a pretty good western as well. It is realistic that when real trouble comes to town most folks turn tail and hide.

I love Unforgiven nd Josey Wales but have a soft spot for Winchester 73.

As I mentioned when I started this post, I think Unforgiven is one of the top 3 "Modern" Westerns ever made. Along with Tombstone, and Quigley Down Under.

I think Unforgiven's story line is similar to John Wayne"s "The Shootist", which is also the story of an aging killer & Anti-hero past his prime. Also one of my favorite westerns.
And I have to admit that I'll watch ANY John Wayne or Clint Eastwood movie, no matter how bad of a flick it was.

That being said, my favorite all time western will always be "The Searchers"
With John Wayne, of course.

Followed closely by "The Cowboys" & "The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly, and "The Outlaw Josey Wales are also my top all time favorites.

High Noon is with Gary Cooper.

The Shootist to Unforgiven?

No [bleep] way.

Unforgiven is everything westerns should have been from the get go.



Travis

I disagree with Shrapnel's assessment of Unforgiven being more realistic than TOJW based on the fact that TOJW is a story straight out of the history books with many real-life more or less documented incidents to make it up. Unforgiven is simply a story fantasized in somebody's mind with no real-world counterparts closely resembling it. Therefore I give the nod easily to TOJW when compared with Unforgiven. To further explain, many people judge a western's "realism" on how gritty and dirty the characters are or even how closely things like costuming and weaponry are to the supposed real thing. Both films have flaws on this score, but where the actual storylines are concerned TOJW completely bests Unforgiven. Unforgiven could be the more realistic, but we'll never know because it's a made-up tale based on nothing. TOJW is a made-up tale based on a lot of factual events. Both movies, for their day, felt pretty realistic despite their flaws. I can't say which is better when it comes to costuming and weaponry. In fact, despite an 1886 Winchester clearly visible in a film taking place in 1878, IIRC, I'd probably give the nod to Unforgiven in weaponry. The Starr Army is just hard to beat, as is the Spencer and the Schofield. Wales carrying about seven handguns almost excuses the 1874 Sharps being used in 1866.

Ultimately the "goodness" of films is in the eye of the beholder. TOJW was probably a bigger hit than Unforgiven whereas the latter film was definitely a bigger critical success. Lots of people like both movies and I think TOJW is now more accepted as a serious film than it was when released, though I doubt it will ever overtake Unforgiven in that vein simply because most people take a superficial view of "realism".

Last and possibly least are the names of the films. TOJW is a bit cartoonish but still acceptable. Unforgiven loses points with me as being way too close to The Unforgiven, a superior 1960 movie starring Burt Lancaster.

John Wesley Hardin was possibly the deadliest traditional gunfighter in the old west. Jon Selman, an experienced killer in his own right, shot him in the back as Hardin threw dice at a bar in El Paso's Acme Saloon. So maybe the less talented Munny would have killed Wales.

Josey Wales never quit, got married and became a broken down old pig farmer. Josey Wales was a traditional gunfighter and a master at his craft. Munny was just a scumbag.



Thank God that's not true! IMHO, the only thing good about Unforgiven was the exchange between Little Bill and English Bob, and the last two minutes. Anything John Wayne ever did was better than Unforgiven. As is Crossfire Trail, Monte Walsh, Last Stand at Saber River, Tombstone, 3:10 to Yuma (remake), Appaloosa, Ride with the Devil, even Seraphim Falls.

Gary Cooper, not Glen Ford.

John Wayne said he hated High Noon. Thought it was communist inspired because he said it created the impression that folks are helpless against criminals short of some agent of government intervening on their behalf.

I rate movies based upon their themes and how well they develop them. I hate to write it, but True Grit had a basic theme and acting was even more basic. Shane had a far more complex theme. An aging gunfighter recognized what he never had and never will have yet desperately wanted -a family- and he was willing to die to protect Starrett and his family because they were what Shane knew to be virtuous. He knew Starrett was not able to protect his family from killers. Starrett was a husband, father, and farmer. While he had guts, he was no killer. Shane was. Starrett's wife hated guns, but what might be the most poignant scene in the film was during the 4th of July party when the settlers learned that Jack Wilson, a hired gun, was in town to kill the settlers. Even though Starrett's wife hated guns, upon learning of Wilson, she silently stared at Shane knowing that he and only he was capable of saving the settlers from Wilson, and Shane was going to do it with the gun that she hated. In essence, she realized that she had wrongly blamed guns for evil of men.

Unforgiven had a mediocre theme. In fact, I wouldn't rate it as anything other than an entertaining western. If anything, as Shane said, a man is what he is, and no matter how hard Munny tried to convince himself that he was no longer a killer, when he was confronted with what he believed was the need to kill, he reverted to the essence of his character: a killer. Munny was not a complex character. Tom Dunson in Red River was thoroughly complex. There is no doubt in my mind that Red River was Wayne's best film and his best acting performance. Shane was a complex character. He struggled with transitioning to wanting to become a family man and reverting a killer who was committed to dying while fighting Wilson and Ryker's gang so that what he saw as good, Starrett's family, could survive.

The best theme of any western was the theme of John Wayne's best film, Red River. There might come a time where a bond to which a man commits is no longer valid and controlling; hence, mutiny is justified.

The Outlaw Joesy Wales is more of a Civil War film than a western. To this day it has the most powerful theme I've seen in any movie, although Apocalypse Now comes in a very close second. If one were to pay attention of the dialogue of Ten Bears and Josey Wales one will understand the extremely powerful and apropos theme of the movie: Rebels, Yankees, and Indians were not natural enemies. The government propagandized them to kill each other when in fact they were perfectly able to coexist in peace, that they had a common enemy, and that enemy was chiefed by the double tongues. The theme of the entire movie is within the dialogue of Ten Bears and Joesy Wales:

Truly fun posts and assessments on this this thread.

Eli Wallach was the greatest surviving rat ever cast in a western.

Lee Van Cleef epitomizes the thinking man's evil.

Let's give the Italians credit where credit is due.

(From Roy Rogers and the Lone Ranger to showing America how to make a western!) PS: Italians design pretty good sports cars too!


DMc

When Tuco assembles his pistol at the gun shop, most everyone here on the Fire can identify with that scenario. As he listens to the timing and smiles, we feel his satisfaction!

(...and envy his bottom line to the proprietor.)

DMc

I, somehow, had never seen The Outlaw Josey Wales. A couple of years ago I came across the book. Although somewhat entertaining, it's nothing that I will re-read. Then I watched the movie and was even less impressed.

Unforgiven, to me, is the best western I've ever seen. I can't even really explain why, but I can watch it every day.

And I believe that Munny would have beat Wales. He'd have walked away from the showdown, then doubled back and shot him in the back. But, that's how it was usually done back in those days.

The Italians deserve a lot of credit. They kept the western genre alive at a time when it was going through a dry patch domestically. They are also huge fans of the guns of the period and Aldo Uberti made a huge contribution to the firearms' industry. Making the Colt SAA and a slew of others readily available to those who couldn't pony up for a real Colt or Winchester. Which continues today with tons of great guns not available from anywhere else. Not to mention that Davide Pedersoli makes some fine firearms too.

Has anyone noticed that "Last Man Standing" with Bruce Willis was a total rip-off of "A fist full of $'s" Eastwood film?

Bruce did a great job in this modern "REMAKE"


DMc

Yep! I loved Christopher Walken's character in that one. He's great at being creepy.

Bruce Dern has always been a fav too. Walken's gonna be remembered for... "More Cow Bell!"


DMc

SNL?

Yup, hilarious!

My favorite movie ever.

Well now, "A Fistful of Dollars" wasn't exactly an original.

The depth of knowledge here is unfathomable.


DMc

Good eye. Based on a Japanese story.

Must be a pattern. So was The Magnificent Seven. Based on The Seven Samurai, another Kurosawa product.

Four Brothers is a remake of The Sons of Katie Elder.

Pretty good one too.



Travis

"Brokeback Mountain" was a rendition of "Blazing Saddles", I believe.

Mondays are better started with humor.

sharpnel,

Knowing facts of the Civil War and the FACT that it was a false flag war (Google: financiers of American Civil War), The Outlaw Joesy Wales is immensely complex and historically accurate. Many forget that Reconstruction was a part of the Civil War and the era of The Outlaw Joesy Wales was Reconstruction.

Apocalypse Now might just be my second favorite war film for the identical reason The Outlaw Josey Wales is my favorite. Both were extremely complex with forceful symbolism and latent themes.

Yes and "Payback" with Mel Gibson is a remake of "Sleepless in Seattle"...

Joseph Wales as a historical film is about as close to a documentary as "Horse Soldiers" with John Wayne. They both dealt with a historical event, The Civil War, but Hollywood still over ruled and made a movie. Besides this is a thread about "Unforgiven" and how good a movie it was. Besides that the whole story line is still every bit as accurate of the lawlessness of the time as OJW about Southern outlaw redemption...

That is not accurate.



Travis

After many years off, Bruce Dern has a new movie out. Anyone seen it , any good ?

It's good in a depressing sort of way.

I mostly watched it because I know it was filmed in Billings.

Some very funny parts in it.



Travis

Bruce Dern will always be a dirtbag. There is no forgetting what he did to John Wayne in "The Cowboys"...

He plays quite the dirtbag in Nebraska.



Travis

He was great at playing scumbags of the Old West. Warren Oates was known for those roles, too.

What makes you think he was playing?

That is your future, 'cept Dern has hair.

Sure thing, runt.


Travis

My 2 favorite lines in Unforgiven go somewhat like this...
Little Bill..."I heard that too, matter of fact I thought I was dead, turns out I was just in Nebraska."
and, "You just shot an unarmed man. Well he should of armed himself, especially when he goes decorating his place with my friend."

No, but it is a damn fine movie.

I figured you were a big fan of Meg Ryan.



Travis

isn't Bruce Dern the gal wearing mom jeans in Jurassic Park?

Yep. In an interview, Bruce Dern said that while he and Wayne were filming the movie, "The Cowboys", John Wayne told him........
"People are REALLY gonna hate you after this Movie!". And he said they really did!

No, but I'm a big fan of Lucy Liu and Payback was probably her best movie role yet. Even better than Kill Bill I.

Haha!

Got you good you [bleep]!



Travis

Loved Payback. Saw it twice.

I don't want a large Farva! I want a gahdamn liter cola!

She was a little Hottie in "Payback".

I'd still do her, even if she's getting a little older now

Goahdamn burger punk!

Unforgiven is still the best western every made.



Travis

[quote=outdoorsman74]My 2 favorite lines in Unforgiven go somewhat like this...


My favorite line .... near the end
Eastwood / Munny standing in the bar holding a 12 ga SxS ... any man who does not want to get killed, better get out now.

Talk about a low down SOB ...
Bruce Dern made a movie long before 9-11 , in which he was going to set off a bomb in the GoodYear blimp during the SuperBowl.

I hold a grudge. Seriously, I do.

Meow you're talking

I don't know a Clark Gable "Far Country"... the one I like is The Far Country with Jimmy Stewart and Walter Brennan....

Lucy Liu is hotter than a welding rod.

Some favorites...The Cowboys, Once Upon a Time in the West (loved Jason Robards), Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, The Wild Bunch, Red River, Rio Bravo, Tombstone (Val Kilmer at his best), Hombre, and Valdez is Coming.

I loved the book Shane and still reread it every couple of years, but the movie left me cold. No way was Alan Ladd Shane.

Agree.

I was mistaken...the Clark Gable movie I was referring to is "Across the Wide Missouri". It's a really good western.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043262/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_15

The Jimmy Stewart movie, "The Far Country" is a dandy too.

Yup the movie "Shane" was nowhere near like the book. Far apart.

Yes, I can understand Walter Brennan.. " I can go without food.... but I GOT to have my coffee!! "

marking this thread, so I have some clue when I wander into the movie rental place like a lost puppy

Be sure and rent Tombstone and Mountain Men if you've never seen them!

own Tombstone, have never seen MM, tks for the reco

Haven't seen a movie rental place around here for a while. Indian grocery store carries some, but I can't read the titles.

Where did you get your time machine?



Travis

Yes, Mountain Men is excellent!

Jeremiah Johnson is another good one, if heavily sanitized from reality...

You ever notice the pack of Christians in Jeremiah Johnson are just as annoying as the Christians of today? Always beggin' for schit. And they got some self-righteous preacher that can't solve his own problems and poor Jeremiah Johnson loses his squaw and boy trying to help those morons out.

And WTF were they doing out there anyway? Because if they were witnessing to the tribes around here, they did a piss poor [bleep]' job.



Travis

Two of my favorites. "Take me, Bill Tyler, take me!"

+1

bastids!


it's worse than that, momma got a blu ray player a few years ago. As we watched movies in the bedroom she tried to convince me (along with me trying to convince myself) "ain't this great, what a good picture!"


about 6 mos. later, the sprout comes marching into the bedroom with some heavy duty patch cord and starts fiddling behind our tv. "Hey" sez I "you ain't gonna play those gd puter games in our bedroom"

Relax dad


turns out he hooked up a HDMI cable (???) and VOILA soooo that's what all this fuss about blu ray is about!


told the missus, we're no better off than my grandparents, I can just see them with their first TV sitting there looking at it for months so pleased with themselves for their purchase with their hard earned money, only to have company come over and actually switch the damned thing on!


yes I still go to the movie store, and my middle name there is "late fee"


buncha gd whippersnappers anyhoo, makin fun of old folks

I hear ya. My folks had the first TV on the block and we turn the dang thing on every night and watch the test pattern for hours.

+2 on Shane. The movie was just okay, but nothing close to the book. I've re-read the book many times. The movie should should be re-done. Pale Rider doesn't count.

Never as bad as today's atheists.

Never been bothered by an atheist.



Travis

I find mainstream atheists are not annoying at all. I'll admit the political militants are pretty annoying.

I'll take Christians anytime. You can have the Muslims and Islamist!

I didn't realize the movie was a Documentary? Silly me, I thought it was FICTION.

Right, let's hate Christians because a few of them are made foolish in a movie.

I can't tell if you're a comedian or a Texan.

Travis

I base my entire life on that film.

Except the living outside part. To hell with that schit.


Travis

Kin you skin grizz?

Travo,

I am a TEXAN and I�ve always been proud of it. Possibly a resident of the Republic of Texas in the not so distant future.

Funny, but I don�t see Montana aspiring to any form of economic self-sufficiency? So perhaps your mountain man imagery could come in handy once your socially-engineered apathetic & Godless generation discovers your inheritance, wealth & liberty was stolen.

See�, comedian all the way!


DMc

As funny as this post is, I'm still going to have to lean toward Texan.



Travis

"Can skin most anything."



Travis

....Skin that'un, and I'll get you another....Bawhahahahaha!!

I've been rubbed the wrong way by plenty of over-zealous Christians but I've also known innumerable good folks trying to live a better life.

The internet has given retard-strength courage to atheists who not only don't give a damn about anyone's freedom of religion, they don't care who they insult or to what degree in the process. You know, like the folks who make wise cracks about Christians in a COMPLETELY unrelated topic? Ever see that happen???

No I haven't. This thread is about movies and somebody mentioned Jeremiah Johnson. I replied with one of my observations of the film.

You don't care for my observation, and I don't care about your not caring for my observation. I have found the Christian community as a whole to be a very hypocritical, self-righteous, annoying group of people. If your experiences with them have been different, I'm very happy for you.



Travis

No you didn't, you just took the opportunity to take a cheap shot. Don't be a coward and back away from your unprovoked insult now.



Obviously, most people with your attitude don't care about who they offend with their meaningless diatribe.

While they think themselves to be highly enlightened, I find atheists to be very ignorant, narrow minded, bigoted, hypocritical and judgmental people. Like you, very offended by people judging them, which they return by judging right back. You judge the many by the actions of a few. Most good Christians do not force their beliefs onto others but I can't say the same for atheists. Hypocrisy and judgements flung from both sides.

It's trendy to be an atheist.

Travis,
Jeremiah Johnson was a fictional wimp. He killed a dozen or so Crows? Compare this to Shamgar, son of Anath who, (in real life) killed over 600 armed men in a single battle with an Ox Yoke! Interesting stuff. You should read the book, it's called Judges. Found in Chapter 3.


DMc

You know what I find most humorous about you? I stated the exact same opinion last Sunday (while watching Jeremiah Johnson) in front of two staunch Christians. And both of them laughed and conceded my point.

Now of course I have met and have befriended good Christians, but I still think the film did a fine job of depicting them as a whole. And your posts do a fine job of affirming my opinion.

Can't speak to atheists. Don't think I've ever known one.



Travis

Foreigners don't interest me. But thanks.


Travis

Biblical perspective about making Judgments: Before making judgment on another, examine the log in your own eye.



DMc

You are [bleep] joking right?????????

Too bad..., (not intending to whip a dead horse), but 300 men from the same heritage, defeated an army of over 100,000 soldiers by using mud to their advantage. (Again, accounted for in the book of Judges)

Interestingly, something similar is occurring today. An Islamist group called ISIS (Made up of approximately 2000 men, have put an American armed Army of roughly 65,000 men on the run. Epic! ...and biblical in proportion. Your socially-engineered media isn't very interested in foreigners either as they have little regard for reporting it. But another book predicted this to happen. It's called Revelations.

Regarding Atheist, how can an outdoorsman look at a fresh caught Rainbow, Brown, or Cutthroat, and deny there being a creator? And before you bring it up, you're correct, Texas doesn't have any wild trout, and I blame YOU GUYS for hoarding them!

Soooo GFY!!!



DMc

PS, Actually this isn't true. McKittrick Canyon in the Guadalupe Mountains holds a small wild Redband trout population, taken there by a US Cavalry troop pretty close to the days portrayed in Jeremiah Johnson. But of course the Texas Dept. of Parks & Wildlife won't let us fish for them...

watched Tombstone last night. Maybe its just cause I'm old now, but I think Unforgiven is better.

I was kidding. I've read the Bible. But honestly, reading that many books about a buncha foreigners is a bit exhausting.

I'll be trout fishing @ 10K' next week. I'll think of Texas while I'm there (yeah [bleep]' right)

Thank you for the GFY. You seem like one of the Christians I like. Despite your being a Texan.



Travis

This cracks me the [bleep] up....



Travis

Unforgiven is the best western ever.



Travis

Travo,

Don't slip in the damn snow, another thing you Yankee Bastids hoard! I've got the loneliest snowboard in the state!



DMc


BTW, You'd sure be a danged good Christian if you ever decided to take it up or on.

I'll pray on it...




Travis

Drink some of that Montucky swill for me....

At the end of Jeremiah Johnson they couldn't use the disclaimer "no animals were hurt in the filming of this movie"...

I keep forgetting that this forum is so heavily populated by high schoolers. Back to your regularly scheduled circle jerk......

Nice high school comment...

Jesus loves you, even when everyone else knows you're an azzwhole.

Help him out.

They sure poleaxed that sumbitch didn't they?



Travis

There's a lot of immaturity around here.

Back to movies...

Watched Tombstone again last night. That really is one helluva great western. If Unforgiven and Tombstone played soccer, we'd have one of those nail biting ties.


Travis

Trying to speak in language you guys can understand. Guess I missed again. I'll just start throwing in a "GFY" response to every discussion.

rented Mountain Men last night, via a quick trip of my '99 Taco time machine


hope to watch it after chores or this evening.


but damn she can add to that honey do list. and now she's got the sprout doing it too!

I wish I'd had the courage of Brother Dave and just let those children wander.

Movies:

Still like Once Upon A Time In The West.

That's a good one! Got me into the habit of playing harmonica music just before shooting game.



DMc

Watching the Costner Wyatt Earp on AMC.

Better than most things on....

Jerking off is a sin. Circle or otherwise.

Maybe you should log off and read the goddamm Bible since you obviously skipped Sunday school.


Travis

If that was an attempt to insult or offend.....you missed. Stop making stupid assumptions and just go back to talking about Westerns.

It's a pretty good flick, maybe even closer to the real story. But Costner is just a little two wimpy to play a real baddass like Wyatt Earp, IMO. Tombstone was released just before Wyatt Earp, and with Val Kilmer totally nailing Doc Holiday's character, really hurt ticket sales for Costner's version. Still, Wyatt Earp is Definately a Western Movie worth watching.

Tombstone was a really tough act to follow, they did it right.

Wyatt Earp was, as my grandfather would say, cut out right and sewn up wrong. It was made more like an `80's western. I think Costner did a fine job of portraying the darker side of Earp but his supporting cast was lacking. Dennis Quaid was great but I hate Michael Madsen and Morgan's character was weak. They also did not go to the trouble that they did with Tombstone with the guns, costumes and leather. Swap Madsen for Elliot, cast Bill Paxton as Morgan, ditch the stupid buscdadero rigs, polish the script and you would've had a real winner.

Bite the Bullet has been playing on the Western channel this weekend. Another great Gene Hackman role and Candice Bergen when she was hot.

Yes sir.



Travis

That movie sucked.


Travis

"Hidalgo" is pretty good. Viggo Mortensen is an un-heralded actor but I like him. Anyone kicking Allah worshipper's asses is good by me.



DMc

Hidalgo was a great flick. Also based on a true story.

It does suck compared to Tombstone & Unforgiven.

A little history, for those interested.
Just outside of Albany, TX at Ft. Griffin in a little shack of a bar that was for Buffalo Hunters and Soldiers, was where Doc Holiday and Wyatt met up for the first time. Also the place where Doc Holiday reportedly stabbed Ed Baily to death.
The building or what was left of that bar was used in the 1970's to build a Steak House & Bar to make it rustic looking. Anyhow, it's one of the best kept secrets of N. Texas that only serves aged Angus beef and one of the best steaks in TX. Their Mesquite grilled Fillets are to die for!
Also there is a really neat little Museum at the site of Ft. Griffin with several real Buffalo Rifles and handguns from that era.
Ft. Griffin was the western most frontier fort in TX before the Civil War and when the Commanche tribes ruled the Texas plains. Definately worth the trip if any one is close to that area. Also, 35 miles west of their in Abilene, there is Frontier Texas. A great Museam of Western History and the Texas Fort Trails with interactive videos and displays on the Soldiers, Comanches, and Buffalo Hunters, for any one interested.
http://www.discountabilene.com/FrontierTexas.html

I'm partial to the "Trinity" series.....

Seriously though, The Unforgiven was realistic in most ways and didn't make up some horseschit on how everyone got gunned down by some deadeye fanning his SA. It was also realistic in that a good chunk of people that went "in town" were there mostly to raise hell and cut loose from a pretty unforgiving lifestyle.

I suppose its more exciting for a writer to make every hero or villain the equivalent of Hardin.

I like Paul Newman in "Hombre".

If you're gonna go back that far..., how bout John Wayne in Stagecoach? Hombre coulda had a better ending.


DMc

?? Rifleman or Paladin ??

My 2 cents: Richard Boone was bad azz, Chuck Conors was gay!

Daniel Boone with Fess Parker was awesome! So was James Arness in Gunsmoke!

Steve McQueen in "Wanted Dead or Alive" was sensational too, however, I only remember seeing 2 or 3 episodes of that series. Nevada Smith is a huge winner!


DMc

Anybody else notice when outside the bar Little Bill was telling

everybody that he would buy the first drink,then every body else

in the posy would buy there own. And be sure and buy enough 30/30

when it hadn't even been invented yet.

Still great movie much like Open Range ten shots out of a six shooter.

Bob

Wild Bunch