I was young and stupid in 1979.

I was not arrested and never have been. Never more than a speeding ticket.

By 1983 I was completely over doping and drinking. Have not since.

Fast forward to 6 years ago.

I am a father of two, still married to the first wife, have two businesses, own a house and cars, they whole nine yards.

Never more than an occasional speeding ticket.

My son gets interested in guns. We start buying long guns and pistols.

I take the class get my Concealed Carry. No sweat.

This April I go to renew.

The very same people that issued my last CC (different sheriff) bring me in to their office and tell me "sorry, your dd214 says Discharge, NOT Honorable Discharge". They turn me down.

I call my lawyer. He agrees. They made a mistake when they issued. Waste of time to try to fight it.

I run into the sheriff at the range. Nice guy. He lets me tell him my story. I tell him about the dope so he knows I am not yanking his chain. He gives me his cell phone and asks me to call him tomorrow at 1p. I call, he says Sorry, my people have called it right. No CC for you.

I kind of miss carrying concealed.

I don't have thousands to throw at legal fights.

Any hope or suggestions?

Thanks.

Does State Law say a General Discharge is forbidden to obtain one or state who has discretion?

What State N.C. ?

Mike

Teach your son to do better than you. You're not the first father in this situation.

Go back to 1978 and kick your own ass.

You pissed away your ability/right/privilege to carry concealed via permit when you got OTH (other than honorable) discharged from the Air Force. CCW restrictions don't apply for discharges of Honorable, General under Honorable Conditions (almost all medical), and General. OTH, BCD, and Dishonorable are bars to CCW. You have an OTH, and if you were high and popped positive while in uniform then you earned that.

You're done where you are. Open carry, or don't carry, or move elsewhere where you don't need a permit.

Where you are? No chance.

NC is the state.

John, I hope I have taught my son better. Amazing how things have changed though in terms of stigma associated with marijuana.

Still the same in the military. If you pop positive on a piss test or show up high, you're getting an OTH or BCD (depending upon circumstances and chemicals), and you earned it.

My step father had the same issue. He was caught in the Marine Corps with dope actually probably about 1979. They did not kick him out but he lost all rank and when his time was up he got a Standard Discharge I guess it's called. He never even tried to get his CCW cause it would't happen.

I'm surprised. There was a time when a BCD meant you couldn't vote, work for any fed, state, or local government, get vet benefits, ect.
After serving five years, I went to college and got a degree. My first job application in 1974 asked about military service and type of discharge,service locations. When I applied for my last job in 1993, there wasn't a question on the application about military service at all.

I think moving is your only option. I have CC permits for Oregon and Washington. I do not think has a discharge requirement.

You could always run for president so you'd have SS protection wherever you went. Worked for Obama and he loves smoking dope. Kinda crazy that you couldn't stay in the military but the CIC can be a pot-crazed dope-loving fool....

Can you get a non-resident permit from a more permissive state?

Unless you were convicted after a Court Martial procedure, I assume that you were received a General Discharge after receiving one or more Article 15 non-judicial punishment procedures. You can request a change of military records and while I don't know any of the specifics, I'm sure that there are dozen of internet sites with detailed information.

Air Force Review Boards Agency
SAF/MIBR
550-C Street West, Suite 40
Randolph AFB, TX 78150-4742

You don't get a Bad Conduct Discharge without a Court Martial.

Here's another source for upgrading your discharge. Essentially your requesting a Correction to your Discharge. Best results come from getting an experienced attorney to do the request for you.

http://www.monterey.army.mil/legal/trial_defense/how_to_upgrade_your_discharge.pdf

My understanding is an General Discharge does not disqualify a former service member from any veteran benefits other than they are not allowed to wear their uniform on a national holiday or other occasion where someone with an honorable discharge is allowed to.

You can try and upgrade your discharge. I'm afraid I don't know the procedure, but I'm sure you can find it somewhere on the internet.

Your current Secretary of State and former democratic presidential candiate had to get his upgraded from then President Carter. I'd attempt an upgrade if for no other reason your VA bennies. One day you'll need them.

I'm a Navy vet with an honorable. I served from 77-81. Out of my 60 man division, I was one of only two that didn't do dope. It's just the way it was back then.

In NC, I'm afraid you're trapped by the language in our statue that prohibits issuance of a permit to anyone that .....

"Has been discharged from the U.S. armed forces under conditions other than honorable; ....."

Only an Honorable Discharge will satisfy the statue.

Scott,

I have re-reard the thread and must have again missed the place where the OP indicated the specific type/level of discharge that he actually received, except that it wasn't honorable. There are, as you know, multiple levels of enlisted discharges.

A General discharge is an administrative discharge, while three other negative discharges; Other Than Honorable, Bad Conduct, and Dishonorable require Court Martial actions. Since the OP indicated that he had never been arrested, I inferred that the discharge was administrative in nature, therefore a general discharge.

I know one guy that got a general dis, and went on to work for Durham PD.

FWIW.

Incorrect.

The various levels of discharge are as follows:

Honorable
General under Honorable Conditions
Other than Honorable
Bad Conduct Discharge
Dishonorable

The first two satisfy the statute as both are honorable conditions.

The OP likely has an OTH (other than honorable) discharge, and that does not satisfy the statute.

The OP has been out of the military for more than 15 years. He cannot simply file a DD293 and request a review of discharge or dismissal. After 15 years, he would have to request a full review of and change to his military record.

In other words, the OP needs to hire a military lawyer and his chances of getting that changed are slim, and expensive.

I hate to assume too much here, but if he had a classification of discharge that satisfied the statue he wouldn't be in this predicament.

Secondly, getting a dope related discharge amended - 36 years after the fact - to anything that will help him in this matter is not "slim", it's most probably impossible.

Agreed. He does not have a classification that satisfies that statute; therefore, he does not have an Honorable Discharge nor a General under Honorable Conditions. He almost assuredly has an Other Than Honorable discharge, and I agree that having the service record amended after 36 years (it would take the entire record to be amended) is very high on the improbable scale.

he'd have better luck getting the law changed than his record.

Assuming he could get Roy Cooper out of the AG spot first.

He will have zero luck getting a non-resident permit from any other state as well, so that's out. Utah, for example, which is the most accepted NR permit in the U.S. requires that an applicant for an NR permit have a valid carry permit in their resident state. Almost all of them have the same honorable conditions requirements for military discharge as well.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/NonResidentPermits.pdf

The OP is, essentially, ass out for a CHP due to the discharge over illegal drug use 36 years ago. Without hiring an attorney and trying the very difficult route of getting the entire military record changed, he's OC nor No C only.

I served in the Navy from 1965 to 1976. I was the division chief over nuc machinist mates on two different submarines. In 1976 I had almost 1/2 of my guys busted for dope based on a false accusation. They didn't even piss test them and their naval careers were ruined. They were reduced in rate at a captains mast, transferred from the sub, and allowed to complete their enlistment w/o any chance to re-enlist.

Some things don't allow a do over... Sorry to hear of your plight.

My DD214 just says Discharge. I did get an article 15 a few weeks prior. If I could figure out how to put a pic here I would show you a picture of the dd214. Thanks for all the input.

Then it's a straight General discharge without classification. Damned lucky to not have it been Other Than Honorable, which would have royally screwed your life in many ways. An unclassified General was probably the best you were going to get then and far better than what a drug-related discharge with an Article 15 would get today.

With the Article 15 for drug use prior, it's going to be damned unlikely to have the service record changed to move that to General under Honorable Conditions.

You're looking at Open Carry, or No Carry, as your options for lawful carry from here on out.

I have no idea where I got it.

If you weren't convicted via Court Martial, you were most likely administratively discharged under a General Discharge. I think that your chance of getting your General Discharge upgrade to a General Discharge Under Honorable Condition is slim, but if you feel that the investment is worth the cost in legal fees, I'd go for it.

The senior officer involved in your discharge would have had you sign documents acknowledging that accepting a General Discharge could cause you problems in your post-military life. You should have been given a notarized copy of those documents as part of your discharge package. If you didn't sign those documents, or those documents aren't in your military records, your position might be stronger, but you won't know unless you look.

Thanks for all the help.

I will try to get my discharge changed. Worse that can happen is they say NO.

I noticed no one suggested contacting the NRA or other second amendment groups.

Because it's not how I would go. You screwed up, let those groups deal with screwed up legislature/s.

Thread should be titled
"Gun laws that only hurt the law abiding"

Life is all about choices
You make 'em, you live with 'em.

some of you pricks are real fuggen helpful as usual.

I guess I need something explained to me: in what way would being busted for drugs be considered "law abiding?" Just curious.

Tom

In the state of WA there is a real industry for attorneys getting gun rights back for felons after 5 years with no trouble. They will quote a price. I know a guy who has a gun problem that was not a felony, but bureaucratic screw up over an offense "attempted party house".
No attorney would quote a price to fix that, so the guy moved out of state.

That's because doing illegal drugs while enlisted in the military is NOT law abiding.

Those groups avoid losing cases and trying to change what was rightfully done by the .mil over 30 years ago.

No doubt there will be an attorney that will take your case (money), but that's all that will happen.

Forget about concealed carry.
Make it a good life lesson for you son - sometimes the rules do apply to you and there are consequences for breaking them.

I think I would contact a service rep from DAV. The least they can do is help you find out what is in your records.

I do appreciate all the input. I am not looking for sympathy. I know I screwed up. I also know that I was 18/19 and brain not properly wired at the time. And considering the change in political climate about marijuana use and that I have committed zero crimes in a lifetime there might be a fair chance that I could have the record changed or a "waiver of some sort.

Short or throwing money at an attorney.

Don't give up.

I believe recent court decisions have upheld the rights of formerly convicted felons in some cases to participate in the 2nd amendment guarantees. Perhaps it may be easier now if you cite these decisions.

It might be easier to get your type of discharge changed. Applying and working toward a General discharge might open up doors.
Other than that: AZ, VT, WY, AK are places that don't require permits to carry concealed.

I hate to sound cynical, but I don't think the political or cultural climate regarding MJ use is going to have any effect on a technical finding the military used to classify your discharge. I wouldn't spend a dime on an attorney that hadn't successfully done it previously for someone else.

Secondly, everyone makes mistakes. There are very few people walking around that don't have some undisclosed criminal behavior in their past that wouldn't pop out with just a few questions on a polygraph; they just never got caught and have never been hooked up and asked relevant questions.

As is so often the case with all of us, the act itself can be forgiven and forgotten but the consequences of our actions just doesn't go away.

There is no change in climate. You still can't smoke dope in the military, you'd still get something less than an honorable discharge. Applying today's civilian attitudes to the military of 1979 (or 2015) is not a valid argument.

79 is before my time. I went into the Navy in 84, and drugs were a no-no then. I was told the crack down started when a Lt and Ensign destroyed a half dozen planes on the Nimitz's flight deck. Pilot/Nav and 90% of the deck crew tested positive for THC. I think that was around 81 or so.

Yes! a life sentence seems appropriate.

If he wanted to be illegal he would have just carried the damn thing and fug the state law.

Why not just ask the President for interdiction?

The champion of the war against the war on drugs thinks your getting the shaft, so maybe he can author a letter on your behalf?

Just don't tell Øbama why your discharge should be changed...










(only the center sentence was sarcasm)

It's something that he should have tried to change WAY back when.

Regardless, as you see, this is part of the price to signing your life over to Uncle Sam and why many aren't cut out for it.

You're bitching is akin to people that buy a house next to an airport then complain about the noise.

Everyone, including the OP, knew the price going in. He signed the dotted line. If you don't like know that a bad discharge will follow you around for life either A) Don't [bleep] up whilst in the military or B) Don't join

I didn't they drafted me. laugh

No problem here with what the USAF did at all.

It does seem excessive to lose 2nd amendment's rights for life, for doing what is now legal in several states.

Edit:
I also assume that law was not on the books when he smoked that dope.
Ex Post Facto, if so his offence should not apply.

He didn't lose his 2nd Amendment rights, just his ability to get a CCW permit.

Still a life sentenced for doing what is legal in other states.

Punishment above and beyond.

What law are you talking about? The CHP law in NC? It's identical to most CHP laws in every other state. NC was a "no issue" concealed carry state prior to 1995; i.e., you could not get a permit to carry in the state at all.

Even if it was not on the books at the time, it does not make it an Ex Post Facto law. Such a law makes something illegal that was legal at the time, and enforcement retroactive. What the OP did (doing drugs while in the armed forces) was illegal then, and it is still illegal. The penalty is still the same in the military. The provision for carry has actually gotten LESS restrictive in NC (going from no issue to shall issue) over time, but the restriction on the level of discharge from military service that applies has not changed at all.

Exactly. Until/unless the OP's state goes Constitutional Carry, or the entire U.S. goes Constitutional Carry, the permit is subject to the statutes governing it, and in almost every state that issues a permit his level of discharge from military service is a bar to a CHP. He can still own firearms, and he can still bear firearms (openly, in the course of target or recreational shooting, or hunting, etc.). He just can't lawfully carry a concealed firearm.

My mistake, still IMHO excessive, heavy handed laws from a to often draconian oppressive gooberment.

See if you congressman can help you.

You mean the one that governs how people who are serving (in his case - VOLUNTEERED) in the military and who are the nation's line of defense, in whose hands are trusted the lives of many, are barred from doing drugs? Laws like that one?

He hasn't had a problem with the discharge in 36 years and only now cares when a law that went into effect that gave most people in his state the privilege to carry concealed (a privilege that did not exist in that state prior) impacts him because of his previous illegal activities.

The CHP law won't change unless/until it goes Constitutional Carry. Getting his service record changed (the only avenue left open to him after more than 15 years out from discharge) is damned near impossible - ESPECIALLY for something that still carries the same penalty or worse in the uniformed armed services today.

You didn't read what I already wrote did you?

So how is denying him the Right to "bear arms" not taking away at least part of his 2nd amendment rights?

We're just going in circles here.

He is not denied the right to bear arms. He can still carry openly in that state, and he can still bear arms while engaged in any other lawful activity. He is NOT permitted to carry concealed.

Therefore, he is NOT denied his Second Amendment rights.

I read what you wrote, as have others. You still haven't caught on that you are and were in error.

I tend to agree that requiring a permit is dening a part of ones second amendment rights, but we lost that one decades ago. Why should one need a permit to exercise his 2nd amendment rights? He shouldn't, IMHO. I am no lawyer and did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

It's actually never been litigated all the way up, so we haven't "lost" anything on it yet.

The SCOTUS has ruled that we have a "right to travel" within the unenumerated rights protected by the Bill of Rights. Yet, we still have to comply with laws and regulations around permitted operation of a motor vehicle in accordance with that right; the operation is a privilege attendant to the right. CHP, for now, is considered the same. The OP lost that privilege when he committed an illegal act while in the uniformed armed services and received a discharge that is not compliant with the statutes that grant permits attendant to the Second Amendment.

He is not denied his Second Amendment rights; only the privilege to carry concealed in that state or any other state that requires a permit. There are Constitutional Carry states that he would be permitted to carry concealed while in or a resident thereof.