Lots of women, young women in particular are getting carry permits these days.

I know a few, probably 4 different females That aren't exactly avid shooters but they are getting carry permits. (I expect some push back on that statement so I will clarify in advance that I will help these ladies practice and become familiar with what ever the choice may be. And I will encourage they practice on their own as frequently as possible)

I'm going to toss out some thoughts, because I will be looked at to advise these women on firearms selections.

Please do tell me where I'm wrong because I'm more interested in their safety and their needs than I am worried about being right.

As my post title states, I'm leaning in the J frame (642/442) and LCR direction.

Here are some of my reasons.

Function under stress. I see a "hammerless" revolver as a very simple tool, no more complex than a push button flashlight. Functionally, it will simply work. It's loaded, you just point it at the danger and pull the trigger until it is out of bang noises. It wont fail to feed, wont FTE, none of that. In the odd case that a primer fails to ignite you just pull the trigger again (self clearing).

Here are some cons that I have sort of... justified.

Capacity is 5 in .38. But that's a 5 count of no bullshit, no dicking around with clearing malfunctions. It's 5 shots that will not fail you.

Reloading speed. Yes, this is true. But these women aren't going to carry extra mags anyways so I'm calling this one irrelevant.

Width disadvantage due to cylinder? I think they are around 1-1/4" to 1.3" at the wide point (cylinder). A lot of single stacks go an inch or better in width. I don't know, I don't have a good argument for compact revolver width vs small pistol width other than to say "not much difference here".


Well, there are my thoughts on the matter. I'm putting compact revolvers against little 380 strikers. Glock 42, LCR, M&P bodyguard etc.

Those pistols are all great little guns but I'm thinking keep it simple.

Ok, turn loose with your relentless dismantling of my ideas/theories here.

Thanks.

A small revolver is not a bad choice. You should take said ladies to the LGS and have them handle and manipulate a variety of suitable pistols/revolvers.
My wife prefers small autos. She picked out both a Kahr CW9 and a S&W Shield.
The ability to rack the slide and handle the trigger pull is the limiting factor for most women. Took a friend and his wife out shooting recently, she wanted a carry piece. She shot several of my compact pistols and ended up picking herself out a G43 at her LGS.

I haven't fired an LCR (yet) but they sure get good marks. The thing to remember for lady shooters is it's not just a smaller hand, it's a weaker hand, so you have to consider trigger pull in the decision. Of course the flip side is strength for racking a slide on an auto vs. the heavier trigger pull in a revolver.

I just ordered his and her LC9s pro's so will give some feedback once we put some lead down range. I figure if my wife doesn't like it, it will be easy enough to sell and try and LCR. She didn't care for the trigger pull of a taurus 605 so that biased me against the DA revolver. I figured the loaded and racked LC9 with a good trigger was a better choice.

To my way of thinking, whether or not its an inexperienced shooter or an experienced shooter, a load it and pull the trigger when you need to use it gun is the way to go. Whether or not it's a revolver or small autoloader is up to debate.

My thinking on going identical with his/her pistols is same platform for training, and God forbid one of us is incapacitated and needs to use the others CCW, same magazines and same ammo.

IMHO being competent with a handgun requires weekly range time, and that's after getting the basics down.

thanks guy, good points made, good feedback.

Also for the ladies this website by a lady about women and guns.

http://www.corneredcat.com/

the small revolvers will work particularly if you tune the thing with some trigger work. Now here is my experience. My wife is not a gun person, I fight her to get to the range 1-2 times a year and make sure she can still hit the broad side of the barn. I have tried her with two steel frame hammerless smith and wesson pistol, and a heavier SP101, all guns had trigger jobs. The SP101 a fellow chucked up the main spring and turned it down, trigger pull was amazing and it lit every cartridge we shot in it.

She was slow and not particularly accurate with any of the 3.

I bought her a Kahr PM380 which she likes a lot as there is negligible recoil and she shoots half again size groups as with the revolvers. The longer double action trigger pull in the revolvers contributes to being off target. Plus its a longer reach for her finger to engage the trigger on a revolver. Then she will carry the thing as it is not a big gun, thus more fashionable.

edited to add- trigger pulls on the ruger 380, smith bodyguard 380 and Kiltec 380 are horrible, if you want to try a 380 get that little Kahr CW 380 I have one of those as well and I cannot tell the difference in it and the PM380.

My wife is on medicare and has arthritis in both thumbs and shoots a Glock 19 and is quite good w/ it. From a low ready position she can shoot 6 shots into 6"x12" in 3 seconds on demand.

The slides on all our 19s have generous quantities of stair tape on them to aid in working the slide and have oversize slide releases. Her frame and trigger have been reduced via dremel and has fine stippling.

We spend about 30 minutes/week working dry fire and defense scenarios and she is very confident in her skills.

I have met few women that enjoy shooting a 2" revolver or that will practice enough w/ one to maintain minimum efficiency. That being said anything is better than nothing so a Ruger .22 LCR might work w/ lots of practice and regular dryfire.


Mike r

From multiple reviews, the Ruger LC9 which has an internal hammer has a terrible trigger. But that's the model they make in all the pretty colors.

The LC9s and LC9s pro have strikers and reportedly one of the best triggers out there. The pro model has no magazine disconnect, so will fire without a magazine and no external safety.

The ideal would be go to a range where various types of handguns could be test fired to see what gun the lady prefers.

Dave,

While I am a very big fan of the J frame series of revolvers, and the 442/642 in particular, don't think for a minute that they are always 100%.

I am currently waiting on a return shipping label for my 442. The short version is that the cylinder started binding, and I discovered that the firing pin was staying in the forward position, and not retracting. Off it goes to the factory.

This is not the first time I have shot a revolver to the point of malfunction. Environmental factors play in too.

I had one literally freeze up, after I took a fall into the deep snow, and my goretex jacket was partially unzipped. The gun as closer to body temp, than ambient temp, and when the snow contacted it, it froze up rather quickly in spite of being externally brushed off.

Revolvers are great for new shooters, but they are not any more reliable than some new service autos.

Cheers!

OUT OF ACTION:

Yep. And dirt & debris from a pocket or purse can jam them up. Or a bad guy clamps his hand on the gun during a struggle, and the cylinder won't rotate.

All that said, women will like what they like, and get annoyed if they don't like your suggestion.

Try to find a range that rents different guns, so they can try a variety of them. Steer them away from poor quality or inadequate caliber - otherwise let them pick what they like.

A couple of women have really liked this gun:



The last woman I took shooting tried a couple of my revos, but then immediately went for a Kahr K9.

MacKay, I have always been a revolver user.. But now own a Para. .45 1911, Springfield Armory .45 1911, and two Glocks..I know what you mean when you spoke of your .44 freezing up.. Happened to my model 28..

The main hang up I have with my semiautos, is leaving the clip loaded for days without use.. Maybe I am just out of date, but do you have a system for keeping the ammo in the auto from "setting the spring" in the clip???

This was a problem I heard about years ago.. Perhaps with today's metals it is not a problem..

yep

IMHO "set" in magazine springs are a myth, I have a couple of Colts, a 1908 vest pocket .25 that has had the magazine loaded since about 1923. Yes the ammo get fired out every 6-7 months and reloaded. Same for a 1903 .32 and a Colt government that has had all 4 mags loaded since1980 or so. Never a bobble in any of them.

I have worked on WWII 1911's that have been loaded since the forties and they also have always worked just fine.

LEE, Thanks!!

Most everybody is blowing some pretty good holes in my revolver ideas. Due in a large part by the DA trigger pull.

The LCR is said to have a nicer, non stacking pull. That said, I've also heard it is more difficult to stage the DA pull on the LCR... I doubt that's important for the context of the intended use here though.

So, although it's probably a bit early for me to bail on the revolver thoughts, I can't help but wonder if I should be focusing on only the 380's in compact semi autos?

LC380, Beretta "Pica", glock 42..... PPK?



mymindisfulloffuck

Yes, I have also heard and read of that "problem." Thanks for your input T Lee.

LCR.



Travis

Statements like this come from people that actually shoot revolvers instead of jerking off to them.



Travis

Thanks.


Would you stick with the .38 or drop to a rimfire, possibly .22 magnum?

Brings another question, the J frames go to an uber heavy trigger pull for their rim fires. Do you know if the LCR has a crazy heavy trigger in rim fire models?

Small revolvers IMO are a lousy thing to do to a new shooter. They're the most difficult of all handguns to shoot. Look to a Kahr CW9, S&W Shield, G43; something along those lines. I promise she'll shoot it much better and I don't think reliability is going to be an issue.

Mackay, got a round count to the failure on that 442? A rough guesstimate would be good enough, I wonder about the longevity of the aluminum J's.

You've referenced compact 9's as alternatives. Would you look past 380's?

I don't necessarily buy that a 2" revolver is so hard to shoot, but that is with man hands and finger strength. I've been using one of these self healing ball targets at the range lately, starting at 10 yds and shooting it on out to about 40 yds when I had trouble making more than the occasional hit.



With the 2" snubbie I was hitting it pretty consistantly on out to 25 yds shooting DA offhand. And I've only gotten back into handgun shooting in the past month.

As to the .380, if limited to factory fodder for practice, that is probably a better choice than a compact 9mm. If you reload, I'd give serious consideration to the 9.

I'd always thought PPK's were the coolest until I shot one.

LCPs is worth a gander.

Most women don't have a problem handling a compact 9mm.

If a person were inclined to jerk off to a revolver, it would be tough to do with an LCR. They be ugly.






But if a person were inclined to carry and shoot the darned things, they are a joy.

I've noticed what some people have mentioned. that is women want what they want. The nice thing about revolvers is grips are changeable. I've noticed women tend to like the Hogue grips. In the classes I've taught they tend to gravitate to Ruger Six series guns, K frame smiths and such for just shooting. A little heavier gun mitigates recoil, and some aren't really open to that. I'd also consider starting them with 22's for just shooting. Or start with center fire cartridges and a fair amount of dry firing get's them used to the idea. Good luck you have your job cut out for you. My wife likes her 4" Security six. FWIW. I'm working on her to try a Beretta 84 that I picked up recently. It'll be something that has to come with one up the spout because she can't pull the slide back. But the other side of the equation is the mag holds 13 rounds.

Dave, the LCR is hindered by a heavier trigger pull in the rimfire models, but I don't find it prohibitive, and I gifted my Mother one of these in 22LR. She likes it much better than the 38 special that I originally gave her.

Since then, Ruger has released the LCR in 327 magnum, using a 6 shot cylinder. This would give the ability to practice with cartriges such as the 32 Smith and Wesson and 32 Smith and Wesson Long, which would give very minimal recoil and muzzle blast, then carry full speed 327 magnums for social purposes.

That's the gun my wife picked too. She shoots it better than an Glock and it is easier for her to work.

Wouldn't say revolvers are fool-proof, but there's certainly fewer motor skills involved overall, and that's no small consideration.

IMO, the S&W 640Pro is the realization of what a j-frame can be. Comes with a nice trigger out of the box, nice (usable) nightsights, and enough heft that it shoots surprisingly easy, and I make no claim to be a pistolero. It's distinctly more shootable than say an airweight frame with rudimentary sights and maybe a heavy, stacking trigger to boot. Just a thought.

The M&P340 also has real sights, though it's lighter and suffers the factory trigger.

I firmly recommend against small revolvers for inexperienced shooters or those who won't practice regularly.

A tiny sight radius with nearly non-existent sights, a long and heavy trigger pull that's completely disproportional to its weight, a weight which makes the recoil even worse with the tiny grip.

Any woman who can use a smart phone or DVD player can insert a magazine and rack a slide without confusion.

I'm now very interested in LC9s pro.

Damn, might even want one for myself.

Throw a revolver down in the dirt, get it good and dirty, then do the same to an auto and tell me which one works. There's a reason militaries went to autos a century ago.

Because a .38+P is very close to a 9. But a .380 would probably serve you better than a small frame revolver.

I agree, so long as the gun chosen functions for the shooter with carry ammo when shooting from retention, strong hand only, weak hand only, and with a really mushy grip. (That is the standard I use for me.)

My wife currently likes the Glock 43 compared to all of the revolvers and autos she has carried over the years. For pure shooting, she likes plinking with the Ruger SR22.

I'm looking pretty hard at G43, LC9s Pro (no external safety) and M&P shield with no ext safety.

It looks like the bore height of the G43 is lower than the others, maybe that's why chicks dig it?

I'd definitely prefer the G43 to the Ruger or the Smith, but that is just me.

I'm sure all three would serve well.

First and foremost, I have ZERO hard data on the subject and cannot speak with authority, merely give an opinion, so take that for what it is worth.

I read about the problem years ago, and contemplated on it a numerous times. I noted that "experts" were all over the map on the topic.

The punchline is that if I am honestly worried about spring set on a magazine that will be loaded for years, I would simply download by a single round.

What I HAVE found to be a problem sometimes, is with mags that are super tight getting the last round in, and with a slide forward, it being extremely difficult to fully seat the mag. Once again, the solution was to download a single round.

The one exception is AR mags, where no matter if they are P mags, GI mags or whatever, they get loaded with 28 in a 30 and 18 in a 20. This has eliminated seating issues, and has worked for years.

Back to handgun mags, I have had some Glock mags with extended base plates, and extra power springs that were a bear to get the last round(s) in. Leaving them fully loaded for a month or so, eliminated the problem.

On mags I use for work/carry, or guns I keep loaded in the home, I load to full capacity and don't worry about them sitting for long times. buying a few replacement springs every X number of years is no big deal to me.


I honestly think it is less of an issue than many make it out to be. Gun springs are pretty reasonably cheap though and Wolff Gun Springs sells them by the 10 pack.


As far as the original topic goes, I think having the girls shoot what they are comfortable with, revolver or auto, is a fine idea. I did not want to discourage the use of revolvers, just discuss the reality of their usage.

This is PURELY a guess, but maybe 2,000 on the high end. I have shot probably 500 rounds through it in the last year alone though, and while it is out of commission temporarily, I honestly think it is a minor issue.

The problem is that it is my BUG gun for work, and if I need a BUG, things have gone horribly wrong, and I need it to be ultra reliable.

I am familiar with the operation of the internal workings of S&W guns, but I also know my limitations. I would feel better if the entire gun was gone through by someone who does it every day.

The fact is that unless there is some catastrophic issue, I don't think the revolver is even close to seeing the end of its service life.

The input is very much appreciated.

I am still contemplating LCR in .22 WMR for my daughter. But we would have to actually handle one and at least have an opportunity to dry fire. This would give some idea as to trigger weight and ability to hold on target while taking up that DA pull.

It could be a good choice for her, she has some concerns with wrist strength due to an old injury, also anything with too many "switches and buttons" could be a bit overwhelming for her to start out with.

Otherwise I like the idea of striker fire "safe action" types of pistols, probably single stack to keep the width down. G43, shield and LC9s pro have my attention currently for 9mm single stacks. It seems the shield and LC9s have a slight advantage in concealment over the G43 (ever so slight). But it also seems the G23 might be nicer to shoot out of the 3, a little less leverage on the wrist and the glock slide might be heavier than the ruger and the shield slide (speculating).

But I'm also looking at 380's

Although everybody seems to hate on it, the G42 seems interesting.

MacKay, Thanks for the info.. Sets my mind at ease!!

Airweight J frames are not always that easy to break.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?113852-Project-Break-my-J-frame

My wife carries a 642 and does just fine with it.

Sportsmans Warehouse has Ruger LC9s on sale for $319.99
Black Friday sale.

I had a Smith 442 that was my wife's carry gun when we lived in Texas. Now, we live in Illinois which just recently passed a law allowing CC. I bought my wife a Glock 19. She's a good shot to begin with; she grew up around firearms and hunted every year with her dad. She shot the orange center out of a Shoot-N-See target at 7 yards when she first picked the pistol up and shot it. She shot over 200 rounds and maintained a high level of accuracy throughout the shooting session. She'll be carrying it in a purse designed for concealed carry. She hasn't decided which purse she wants, but the good thing about the purses is the gun rides in an internal holster, not bouncing around the interior of her purse collecting lint and other foreign matter. I look at the Glock 19 as a 15-round 9mm revolver; she just pulls it out and pulls the trigger until the threat is neutralized.

I'm late to this party but would like to give you a few suggestions. I've trained a couple hundred women over the last 24 years and trained all my girlfriends and wife. Several had to deploy their guns to save their butts.

If these ladies are really serious about CC and know nothing about guns, get them into a NRA Basic Pistol Couse and follow it up with a Personal Protection in the Home Course and maybe even the Personal Protection Outside the Home Course. These will give them the needed FOUNDATION that 99% of the shooters out there don't have.

As to guns, after taking the Basic Pistol Course they will have a better idea of what will work for them and then can take the two follow-up courses with their own guns. Some may like a semi-auto and some a revolver...there is no right answer for everyone, just the best answer for the individual... Your original reasoning however is spot-on...

I see a lot of comments about no one, especially new shooters, being able to hit anything with a snubbie... My belief is that they are not "practically practicing". Simply they put a pistol target out at 10-15 yards and blaze away at it...and they are then right, the snubbie is not right for that kind of target shooting. But if one is practicing for a defensive scenario a} why are they shooting at a bullseye target b} why is the target so far away if they haven't mastered the gun at 5 yards yet. Get a realistic human target, start at 3 yards and work out to 10...if you can keep all the shots in the kill zone then is the snubbie so hard to shoot...

Another not noted advantage of the revolver in regards to malfunctions is during a actual gunfight one may not be able to lockout real well. If one already lacks a lot of physical strength, limp wristing or an unlocked elbow will absorb enough of the slide inertia to cause a feeding malfunction...and the more "compact" that use even heavier springs the more it can happen. I had a female instructor who was the #1 womans bullseye shooter in the state who shot a compact 1911 .45. When she "practiced" there was never a problem, get into a blind scenario, the gun would short stoke quite often. She shot Modified Weaver, with a locked elbow...as soon as she would shoot with an unlocked elbow the gun would fail to cycle... Also many times women are in physical contact with an attacker. This again raises the possibility of a malfunction.

Practice for reality, not for fantasy.

Springs...magazine wise I have never replaced one. My two carry guns were made in 1952 and I use the original magazines...the springs are original. Unless a spring gets rusty or sustains physical damage it will continue to function just fine. Cycles not constant compression causes more wear to a spring.

Great that you are helping these ladies...

Bob

Daughter Amy packs a NAA Black Widow .22 Magnum. She likes the size and can hit pretty good with it. I was a little concerned about the NAA safe loading procedure. But she mastered that quickly.

My wife likes our S&W 317 Camp gun loaded with Stingers. I hate to mention Stingers since I've not seen any in gun stores for several years. Fortunately I was in a gun store when his shipment came in I bought both cases to insure my supply.

I seldom carry less than a 9mm but occasionally carry S&W 351 MP loaded with Hornady 45 grain short barrel loads.

You should add Kahr to that list.

My wife also has a background in LE. She was a University Police Officer @ Texas A&M for 3 years. She's had some good training over the years. She's no beginner and she definitely wanted the Glock as her carry gun. She shot the 442 fairly well. The sights on the 442 we had was a groove in the top strap and a small blade for a front sight. It was obvious precision shooting was not a priority when S&W designed the sights for that revolver.