Before you'll carry a pistol, how good does it need to be? I've never really put a number to it, but have been wondering just what that number would be if I were to. Does anyone else have a standard that they use to decide what's worth carrying?

As far as reliability, I'd like it to go 500 rounds without any serious cleaning and still be malfunction free. Any malfunction has to have an explanation...ammo to light for the recoil spring, magazine springs too light for the slide speed, feed lips out of spec on a magazine, or whatever else might cause a problem.

The 500 rounds is pretty arbitrary, honestly. But I think it's indicative of reliability and a number that's easy enough to reach.

For accuracy, the standards become a little less scientific because they're so dependent on my shooting ability (or lack of it), but these are some general standards that I've come up with that I'd expect from a carry gun....
-From 5 yards I want to be able to hit a 2" circle without problem
-From 7 yards a 3.5" circle
-From 25 yards I want to be able to put an entire magazine in an 8" circle
-From 50 yards I want 60% of my shots to hit an A-zone on a USPSA target and all of the shots to be in the C-zone

Additionally, I've gotta have at least seven rounds and it be magazine fed.

Any ideas? Do y'all have a standard you want your carry guns to meet?

I have broader standards for my carry pistols and revolvers.
For one thing, I clean my stuff more often than you do. Just the way I have always done it.
I don't mind a 5 shot J frame S&W .38 Special. Never felt under gunned with one in my pocket.
As far as accuracy goes, I am right in sync with what you feel, with the caveat that the J Frame probably won't measure up with regards to the longer range shooting.
No hand gun, or any gun, is any more reliable than the last time it went bang. Do your best with maintenance, load, and handling, and still, there is never a guarantee for that next shot.

I have always used the 500 round number myself. That means zero malfunctions with no tinkering to get it there. Straight outta the box.

That's all reasonable. I'm a little tougher on them accuracy-wise, holding out for 5 shots in 5 inches at 50 yards from a rest.

I will allow 'reliability trust points' for Glocks Gen 3 and earlier, because I've never seen one fail that didn't have a major mechanical problem. Same for the full-size Sig 22X pistols. If either of those go a couple hundred trouble-free rounds using all mags, they are probably gonna run like clockwork.

I'm good with 4-5 boxes of ammo (50 rounds) of what I intend to use, then I like to play with a few other types just to see.

So long as I can hit a can at 20 yards every time, I'm good.

I guess I should've added that all the accuracy stuff is offhand. So it's not just the pistol can do, but what I can do with the pistol that matters the most to me.

Yeah, I can't remember the last time I used a rest, if ever, with a pistol.

I have never owned an unreliable pistol. Every 1911 and variant I've owned has been consistently reliable from the get-go with quality magazines. I'm not expecting to repel the Spartans, so if the gun shoots the first 100 rounds without a hiccup, and close inspection during cleaning doesn't reveal any odd wear patterns, chips, scratches or metal flakes, it can go in my holster.

Currently, my carry pieces vary from 1911s, full length, Commander length and Officer's length, a Kahr CW-9, a Springer XD-S (.45) and a Charter .38 Undercover.

As for accuracy, I don't measure groups much, but at 25 yards, I expect every shot to be in the head of a life size silhouette. At 10 yards, 5 of 7 better be touching each other and at 5 yards I'll expect a one-hole ragged group.

The red target was off hand at 12 yards with an RIA Compact (Officer's length) .45 and that's typical of what I expect.



This is slow fire, off hand.

I like about 500 rounds of whatever ammo I can stuff magazines with and 100 rounds of my carry ammo. With that said I don't really begin to trust the gun until I hit the 1000 round mark. I've had a couple parts breakages over the years between the 500 and 1000 round mark. Seems that if something is going to wreck it will happen somewhere in there, after that it's routine maintenance stuff and the gun will run trouble free.

I mentioned rested shooting to confirm mechanical accuracy and zero and I admit, I'm OCD about that.

Once there, it's all on me. I expect to stay middle of the head on a B27 at 25 yards and 9 ring at 50, with a few sprinkled in the 8. At 10 yards I should be chewing out the little mini B27 in the upper left corner of the target.

I favor a 45 and I don't feel nekkid with 8+1; but I like 11+1 and 13 round reloads better.

Not carried the 2 .45 Colts, the 27, or the 2 MK's for SD carry. Everything else has been on my person for that at one time or another. They all fit the OP's requirements, except the J-frame. I'm not near enough good with it to put every shot in an 8" spot at 25 yds unless we're talking about a slow, non-SD, non-threatened scenario.

If it will go 500 on one cleaning and shoot into 3.5" at 25 yards off of a rest with me shooting I'm happy. I worry about getting the trigger how I like it more than pure accuracy.

I know it when I see it, and it's based on how the firearm performs and the quality of the components rather than some arbitrary round count. I'll know long before 500 and most often after a few magazines or cylinders.

If a problem appears it gets addressed at the workbench, not the range. Or, I decide the guns not for me.

The horrid SA and DA guns chambered in 45 Colt will go bang every time with 44 Mag brass and an undersized bullet, hit the requisite 8" at 35 yards and then clean up with two more shots of its properly chambered fare.

They are terrible guns with limits....

I suppose if by "tinkering" you mean screwing around with no real knowledge of what is causing the problem and what will fix it, that's a good policy.



I'm with ya, Blue. Except, I also want to see at least 200 continuous rounds of perfect function - no excuses.

Self defense carry? I carry a LCR 5 shot revolver. It has gone bang every time I shoot it. I also have a SIG 229 40 S&W I would carry. It has never ever FTF or jammed.

Accuracy, minimum...Keep it in 6-8" at 7 yards. I'm only looking at Self Defense. I don't think I would shoot anyone further than that.

So if a bad guy is shooting at you from 20 yards, he gets a pass?

No, when he gets to 7 yards I will kill him.

I carry a 5-shot 649 mostly. I'm just used to it after 30 years. I practice almost daily, but not with the 649. That gets shot once or twice a year, when I change out ammo. I've found from 30 years of regular competitive shooting that marksmanship skills are transferable between weapons.

I shot this awhile back at 10 yds with my old duty load. Good enough. Revolver has been altered to DAO by the LAPD armory.
Bob

My Glocks, some lube, run 2-3 mags worth of what ever ammo I have and I am good to go.

Great plan... chit.

You may have a 13 yard problem there...

'Self defense' occurs at whatever range the other guy might luck a shot into you. You have to be good; the other guy only has to be lucky.

I have always liked good revolvers and I've had several snubs that would ring a 12" gong at 50-100 yards.

I believe if you run 100-150 rounds thru any handgun with no hiccups at all you can consider it reliable. 500 is too extreme IMO. As far as accuracy goes, reliability is a whole lot more important than accuracy in a carry gun where it has been proven most shootouts occur withing 10 ft.

Most people could not shoot 200 rounds straight, witj one of these sub compacts that are so popular today

I have a Smith 686, and with cast bullets ,I can go 400 rounds or so without a cleaning if I am using Universal Clays.It is usually the bullet that mucks up a gun with that many rounds though

IMO, if you're shooting 2" groups at 12 yards you are not shooting FAST enough.

as long as it goes bang EVERY time I'm good with it.

"inch" groups at rock throwing range does not interest me.

multiple hits on man sized target is my goal.

accuracy on target, then SPEED is what I think matters.

Blammer, the interesting thing is, those of us who've competed in IPSC, Steel Challenge matches and other assorted shooting get-togethers can already shoot fast enough. IMO, those who can't shoot 2" groups at 12 yards, need more practice shooting first, and blasting second. The internet is filled with dash cam videos of cops who can shoot really fast...but they can't shoot very accurately.

But, I agree on principal, that once you "CAN" shoot, you should decrease your time. I often encountered guys who would shoot better groups than me, but I was policing my brass while they were still shooting their 2nd of two magazines.

There are guys who can shoot a double tap into 2" at 10 yards that is exceedingly fast. So, don't poo-poo small groups. Some can do it and some can't.

I see no point in worrying about 500 rounds w/o cleaning as my carry guns are carried clean, & a 30 round shootout would be an extreme scenario.

If the gun will run 200 rounds with no malfunctions, shot 50 or so at a time & cleaned in between, or even the 200 straight through, I'm OK with it.

If 500 makes you feel more warm & fuzzy, OK fine, minus the not cleaning issue.

MM

For me, its not so much about reliability when dirty or whatever as it is about actually just functioning period along with not having some parts breakage or failure while breaking in. I had a Ruger LCP break the trigger bar at round #187, a Kimber 1911 break an MIM magazine catch at #768, a Glock G22 break an extractor hook around #1,500. All those new guns. Crap happens and all parts aren't solid and all guns aren't perfect all the time. Until I can get some rounds through the gun I'm not completely confident in the weapon.

So your procedure is to randomly hammer poorly fit parts together for hundreds of rounds in hopes the gun fixes itself? That's like trying to fix a rod knock by flooring the gas pedal.

What are you talking about?

For me it has to work every time given decent ammo. Accuracy, it has to be as good as I am that is 2" at 25 yards. Does not matter automatic or revolver. Have found over the years revolvers tend to do better. Automatics either great or very much not so..

I don’t have a preset objective standard for round count or accuracy. For full and medium sized guns by major manufacturers, I may skip the practice ammo and run it straight out of the box with carry ammo for a couple of range sessions. I may or may not do that with mini-guns depending on perceptions about break-in issues. In terms of mechanical accuracy, they all are better than me. Sometimes I have to learn the trigger and sights to get my personal best out of it.

I don’t have a required number of rounds between cleanings. With some mini-guns I am happy if it can fire all rounds from every magazine without malfunction (about 50). All others, including some mini-guns, seem to be able to run a couple of days of practice/training without malfunctions.

For semi-autos I do a limp wrist test with carry ammo using strong hand only and support hand only. I try to hold the gun as loosely as possible without dropping the gun during recoil and see if it will cycle for a few rounds without malfunctioning. To date, I have not carried a gun that has failed this test.

Although not a prerequisite to carry, I like to verify reliability and/or learn quirks by running through some IDPA/defensive pistol type courses of fire.

I have a buddy that can do that with his 642. At 25 yds he's deadly accurate.

This is a good example of how this forum has gone downhill. There have been some comments on this thread that I didn't agree with, but I still found worthwhile. But this one, this one just doesn't even make any sense. It's just rambling for the sake of making noise without anything to contribute.

An accuracy standard of 2" at 12 yards has nothing to do with speed, because it's an accuracy standard. To say that any time you shoot a small group you have to shoot faster until your group is larger is the equivalent of saying that only large groups are useful. How absurd.

"As long as it goes bang every time"....So if a gun EVER malfunctions it's not suitable for carry? Because if "no malfunctions ever" isn't your standard, what is it? That's the whole point of the thread, to share information.

"Inch groups don't interest me"...."a man sized target"....I've got news for you, man-sized targets are measured in inches. If you think that a hit anywhere on a silhouette like what is commonly produced and hung up at gun ranges is a good hit, you're sorely mistaken. The blood pumping, air exchanging parts of a man-sized target are contained in inches. And unfortunately, bad guys don't always stand out in the open facing directly at you so you can hit them anywhere you happen to flinch a bullet into them.

"Accuracy on target"....Well accuracy is what we were trying to measure when you said we were shooting too slowly. How much accuracy is needed? A measurable accuracy standard is what I was asking about. But your reply is just "accuracy"....thanks for all the help.
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I certainly agree that speed is important and I'm quite capable of shooting fairly quickly. Bill Drills in the low 2s and FAST Drills in sub 4.5seconds don't come from slow shooters, or inaccurate shooters.

But I also see the value in measuring accuracy independently of speed, which needs to be done to have a something to help determine when the speed is becoming detrimental.

I don't have a set break in period, but for the most part I run 50 rounds through a clean gun. Clean, then run 200 rounds through. This is usually cheap FMJ ammo. Clean, then I run 50 rounds or so of whatever HP I will carry.

I use 3 or 4 magazines that I will plan to carry as well. Any FTF and that magazine goes. I always load a full magazine, rack the slide from the slide stop, and then top off the magazine again before firing, since that is how it will be when carried.

If no FTF at that point, I don't worry about it. It still gets shot quite a bit after that anyway.


Most of this shooting is at an 8 or 12 inch gong at 25 yards. If I can't hit the 8 inch gong most of the time and the 12 inch gong all of the time, I'm worried. It won't be carried until it can.

These days most pistols are sufficiently accurate and reliable to get you through a defensive situation. It's training that's hard on handguns, especially sessions with high round counts. Anytime a malfunction is encountered that chips away at your confidence. So what most people are really looking for is a pistol that's sufficient to get through their training sessions without killing your confidence.

I had to become okay with trusting the law of averages and just "knowing" which guns are good and which I needed to be concerned with when I did bodyguard work because I was guaranteed at least once or more times per year I would find myself carrying an "issued" gun that I have no history with. But honestly anything that will function the rounds I carry and shoot a group less than 8-10 inches at 25 yards is probably going to get the job done... Doesn't mean that's my preference, just my understanding of "needs" vs "wants"

I only shoot more than 200 rounds per outing in any one pistol about once or twice per year. I'm happy to report in 12 years and 11k rounds of shooting my primary CC handgun it has let me down a grand total of once, a broken firing pin on a replaced firing pin that had around 4K rounds through it. Would have been terminal had it happened in a gunfight because it happened on round 3. Not much that could be done about that. It was a top quality part; chit happens.

I like a gun that can hit a man sized target at 150 yards, not a requirement, but a strong preference.

I typically do 200 rounds per session and my LE Commander tolerates that with ease. If I were doing 500-1,000 rounds per session, my LW Commander may not be my choice. Newer designs tend to do better with long practice sessions.

Have to admit, I've been eyeballing The CZ P09 and G19 of late. I struggle with shots over 150 yards with the G19, which is why I'm leaning toward the CZ.

Just like higher round counts, the 150 yard shot isn't a requirement, but it makes me feel better.

I think this video is a great illustration of why you have to be accurate in inches. Ultimately, the bad guy was shot at point blank range so accuracy didn't matter at all. But they were extremely lucky that they had that shot to take. If that were your kid, would you want to wait until you had negotiated a chance to make a point blank shot, or would you want to put a bullet in his brain as soon as you saw him?

Look at the way the bad guy holds the kid. That's a matter of hitting a playing card at 12ish feet under crazy pressure. It's not a difficult shot, in itself, but if you add the pressure of the situation and the fact that most people have no idea what their holdovers/unders are at 3-7 yards and that shot gets a lot tougher.

No such thing as to much accuracy IMHO.

Blue makes an excellent point about knowing precisely where your pistol shoots up close, using the loads you carry in it. If you're serious about preparedness, you prepare for the worst case- not the best or 'average' one. Murphy will not only show up at these events, the thumb itch will bring a five piece band and a twelve girl chorus line.

Spot on!

One of the points of the DOT torture is the need to know exactly your point of aim/impact at ranges that high precision would be mandatory.

Regarding my expectations I want the following:
Ability to be reliable when clean. I have always had to carry a clean gun and dont like getting nice clothes dirty for CCW, I clean and lube them then run 50 rounds through them 5 times for a total of 250 rounds.

Second is 250 straight. This is not huge volume but it tells me tolerances are enough to have lint, fuzzy, little bit of mother nature in the gun without tying them up. I dont ask a gun to run 1000's of rounds between cleanings but if thats what you need then go for it and you wont hear me complain.

Accuracy is a bit of a variable for me but I will take all I can for the confidence issue. My M&P was 4-5" at 25 yards from a barricade. I dropped an APEX barrel in this week and shot some obscenely good groups I will post when I get pictures. Some will complain about rebarreling a fairly new gun but I sure as heck have not found another combo of parts that will shoot as tight as it has for a total cost of about $600.