If you do carry a .380, I am honestly interested in your reason why you do so.

What firearm did you choose and how do you carry said weapon?

Kahr P380, got it when they first came out (2009?).
Keep it in a DeSantis pocket pouch.
I carry it when in a very low threat environment or when something larger would be too obvious. It all depends on where I'll be and what I'll be wearing.

Ditto..

I do not. I tried it for a while in a Ruger LCP and found the grip to be so small it was difficult to maintain a consistent grip shot to shot if I were in a hurry. I went from there to a Ruger LCR in 357 mag, but I mostly carry 38 +P loads in that but as things have heated up with terrorists, I've gone to an S&W 6906. I carry it OWB Jack Davis Leather holster.

I have a .380 - AMT Backup - that is my "any gun is better than no gun", gun. Goes places a 1911 .45 could not.

Walther PPK. Desantis holster. For times when a Glock 26 or 1911 commander could not be hidden well enough.

I bought a Sig P238 just before the P938 was announced. As soon as I got my hands on the P938, the P238 was gone. I carried them both in a pocket holster. Now, even the P938 is gone.

I had an AMT .380 DAO and carried it some - until I got to try the (then new) K-T .380.That's when I realized that a little .380 needn't kick so hard. Figured out soon after that for the same size package and less weight, I could have a 9mm - that still didn't kick so hard. Sold it soon after. No more .380 for me.

So what replaced the 938???

A Ruger LCP in a pocket holster. Like others have said, it's the gun I have on me when I don't want to carry a gun. I live and work in a low threat environment so only having the 380 is usually enough. If I'm even going to Idaho Falls, I upsize.

I carry a Kahr P-380 and an extra 7 round magazine loaded with Underwood Extreme Penetrators in a Desantis Super Fly holster ALL THE TIME. If I am going to town, I also carry either a 44 Special, a .357 magnum, or a .45 ACP Colt or Kimber. If I am going to town after dark I also take along a 12 gage with a 9 round extended magazine loaded with No. 4 buck shot and something special for the REALLY BAD guys, but I can't talk about it here.

I'd love to know where your "town" is, if only so I can avoid it.

I've got a Ruger LCP with me at all times. I'm not supposed to have a gun in my service truck, but when I have to do service calls late at night in questionable areas, a 380 in a pocket holster is so much easier to hide than anything bigger.

A Glock 43. It is a little bigger but a more durable, versatile firearm that still fits in my jeans pocket.

Occasionally. A Colt Pony in a IWB holster.

I do so mostly because I like to try different firearms. I don't have the concerns some others express about its .380 chambering for self defense if that is part of the question. Then of course, the G-43 came out.

I chose a G-43. I like Glocks and found it shot better for me than my PF-9 or P-32. It serves as a weak side pocket carry gun for the most part. Another use is in light shorts in summer. I also have a belt slide, an IWB and an Alien IWB rig for it. I added Ghost magazine extensions to a couple magazines for more capacity when desired. Fun to fool with and a couple of friends have fired it and liked it well enough to spend money on one.

Bob, Did you run out of cast bullets for your 29?

Next time you go to town you might want to look in on Charles Bronson and see if he needs any reinforcements.

I'd also love some pictures...

Here is a 12 gauge with extention magazine when I was turkey hunting last week. The shotgun has a 21 inch barrel. I have three 12 gauge auto's, but I like this Remington 1100 with the 21 inch barrel best for hunting turkey's. That particular shotgun has a seven round extention magazine because a longer one would be longer than the barrel. That gun has a special extended extra full "turkey choke" screwed in it or the magazine tube would be the same length as the barrel.



Here is one I keep in my bed room. Since it'll be used inside at close range, I keep it loaded with 1 1/2 ounces of copper plated BB's just for giggles. This one has a seven round magazine.



Here are the 44 special, 44 magnum, 357 magnum, a couple 380's and three 1911's . It all depends on how I feel when I go to town as to what I carry with me and how late I am going to stay out. But I ALWAYS have the Kahr .380 and I usually take along the 44 special. It is loaded with 200 grain wad cutters seated backwards and cast hard and they come out of the barrel at 1000 FPS, so it ain't no push over.



Here is a close up of the sights on my Kimber and a box of those Underwood Extreme Penetrators for the .380's. But I can't show you the "BAD BOY" surprise because then it wouldn't be a surprise. HAR!!!

Ruger LCP with a Crimson Trace laserguard in a pocket holster. Why? I'm lazy and a light 380 is better than no gun. When out in the woods or riding my ATV I carry a S&W M65 or SIG P220 open carry.

Been known to tote either a Colt MK IV Series 80 Government .380 or a Glock 42, they are easy to hide in hot FL weather. Also I live in a reasonably peaceful area. The longer barrels give the .380 to build a bit more velocity than the little pocket pistols, I carry them in a "Remora" IWB.

When headed to bigger places a Colt Commander .45 usually gets the nod.

If you got a chance to pick another .380 instead of the one you currently have, would you pick another one or stick with the one you already have?

I guess the Q is what features are driving the decision?

I have the pick of any .380 I want and I carry the Kahr P-380. It is solid stainless steel, DAO, striker fired, can withstand + P ammo, has the absolute best trigger in its class, has a slide stop, comes with good sights, has a lifetime guarentee, a polygonal rifled target barrel, and it shoots straight. What else do you want a .380 to do??

Uh, well okay. It WILL NOT fix you a 14 year old Kentucky sour mash burboun poured slowly over pure mountain spring water ice cubes and serve it to you. No it won't. But other than that, it'll do.

Had a LCP, difficult to shoot with big hands, no sights either, sort of point and shoot. Good gun if your target is about 6' away.
Now have a Sig 232, little bigger, but much easier to shoot and it has decent sights.
If I have a lot of winter clothing on I like my 9mm Colt Defender.

I too have a Sig P232. I don't know how many times I've thought to myself it would be perfect, if it was a 9mm.

I also have a Interarms PPK/s. The Walther is easier to pocket.

The only .380 on my list is a P7K3, but I'd be hard pressed to spend the money at current prices. I once had a HK4 in .380 and 22LR. To my thinking, it was a novelty of sorts.

I don't think I'll ever sell the Sig.

I carried a KEL TEC P3at for years (never an issue, many rds) in a Desantis. It is my grab and go.

I recently got a Glock 43 for carry.

I tried one once but could not handle the recoil. Now I carry a 1911 IWB all day ever day.

I have two Kahr 380's and they are good to go

Wrong forum. Sorry.

Those little SIG's sure are nice aren't they? Most come with the night sights which I really like. My problem with it is carrying it cocked and locked in my right front pocket with it pointed at Mr. Johnson and the twins. I don't get that same QUEEZY feeling when I carry a little model 36 Smith in that pocket, or either the Kel-Tec or the Kahr 380's in that pocket, but none of those are cocked in my pocket like that SIG would be. If I carried it outside on my belt in a holster, I would have no problem that way and indeed, have carried various 1911's that way for the last half century.

But they were never pointed at Mr. Johnson. I am not going to have anything that goes bang in my pocket that is cocked and pointed at Mr. Johnson, no I am not. You boys can trust the family jewels to a mechanical safety, but I am not going to do it because mechanical things can break and malfunction and that can happen even to a SIG.

Very very rarely.

Sometimes in the dead of winter I get a craving to drink burboun, play my guitar, and sing the blues. It's a feeling that just comes over me sudden like and I want to be around other people who like to do that too. On those occasions I strap on these right and left side Askins Avenger holsters and stick a pair of 1911's in them along with a bunch of extra magazines and a sharp knife in my vest pockets. I cover this with a long olive drab cotton vest made from an old Army coat with the sleeves and collar cut off. Thusly armed, I take my guitar and case and ease off across the railroad tracks into the wrong side of town into a blues playing juke joint or honky tonk and sit in with the blues band and sing and play and have a few drinks.

Some of those places have a few ole boys who are sorta ruff and unfinished around the edges, so I always go prepared to deal with them if I should be required to. I am an old man who just wants to sing some blues, and pick a few tunes on my guitar and those 1911's are my insurance that once I get in there, I can get out again. And if it ever happens that I don't come out, you'll hear about it on the 6 o'clock news because I am not going to be the only SOB that does not come out you can be dam sure of that.

I sometimes carry a Colt 1908 in a Simply Rugged pancake meant for snubbies but only for the novelty of woods bumming with old iron. I don't even have a spare mag for the thing but I've been hoping to get lucky on small game with it.



Some penetration tests of regular ball ammo have impressed me. I think the .380 is the smallest caliber that I would carry for SD if I had no other choice. The 9mm pistols simply do not get small enough to be seriously pocketable and that would be when I would be forced to ise a small .380.

For times when size is the most important thing, I cannot deny a true pocket pistol that can penetrate over 18" of ballistic gelatin. My Colt 1908 ain't small enough to trump my G43 so it is only for play.

The quality .380 semiautos are currently very intruguing to me.

Any opinions on how the Ruger LCP CUSTOM stacks up to the Sig and Kahr? It sure does look much smaller (and MUCH less expensive) than those two.

I have a Taurus TCP that I carry on occasion when I can't conceal anything else easily or I'm just running out for a quick errand. Never an issue with it. The trigger is much better than the LCP, Bodyguard or P3AT. It has decent sights and a slide lock and last round hold open.

The Sig Sauer P-232 is the only Sig I ever wanted . . .

<><> http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mayw84d6lV1r1df5co1_1280.jpg <><>

~ Sig Sauer P232 380

I do not know what to say in response to that except to ask how much you value your life.

That's my 2 cents worth anyway. I hope you get that figured out because it might be important. Look at the Kahr CW-380. It is less expensive than the P-380 and except for some cosmetic issues and a polygonal rifled barrel on the P model, it is esentually the same gun.

I carry a LCP occasionally, loaded with ball, runs great and shoots plenty well for a belly gun.

I've carried 380s before. Unless I needed something small for deep concealment I just don't see them as practical anymore. Like the single stack nines now. I carried ball FP, and the old style rem 88 gr jhp. The Remington was a cool load because it deformed yet rarely expanded which IMO made it ideal in doing damage. I think many modern 380 jhp's expand and limit penetration too much. For example I paralized a rather small coyote at 300 yards with a 22 mag. His back legs were pinned but he was upright when I shot him at 3 feet from the muzzle with me 380. I shot him in the top of the heart with a 90gr hydrashock. It BARLEY exited and he fell on top of the fully expanded projectile. I shot a few others with the hydra shocks and win silvertips. I felt penetration was poor.

That is because it likely was which is one of the reasons many people shy away from a .380, BUT if you load that .380 with Underwood Extreme Penetrator ammo, you don't have that problem any more. However, some small .380 pistols are not recommended to use + P ammo, so you have to make sure you have one that can use it. This ain't rocket science, but you do have to know about these kinds of things.

Additionally, some of the smallest .380 guns have minimal grip area and it is difficult to hold them properly. Then you shoot + P ammo in it and it jumps all over the place when you can't hold it very good anyway, and you have a problem. THAT IS WHY you need to have someone show all of that to you so you can make an informed decision about whether or not a particular pistol/cartridge combination is right for you. Too many people make buying decisions based on advertising, or because it looks good and that approach usually ends in disappointment.

The .380 is only as good as the ammo you put in it and if you put run of the mill 380 stuff in it, you get run of the mill performance out of it. But put modern high performasnce + P ammo in it with modern bullet design and construction and you have a little power house that is surprisingly effective. Just be aware that high performance comes at a price and that price is much increased recoil and muzzle blast and those things can make shooting a small, light weight 380 pistol an unplesant experience.

I have the earlier P-230 version. Blued, alloy frame, ridiculously accurate. Bought it in 1988. Only .380 I've needed.

What do you use it for? It is, like most SIG's, well made of quality materials and as you corectly observe, they are known for accuracy and dependability. I always liked the ergonomics of that particular little pistol and it seems to me that both Kel-Tec and Ruger copied the outward appearance of it in their .380 pistols. Too bad they didn't also copy the SIG habit of very high quality materials and build quality. As I recall, that is also a blowback gun and does not fire from a locked breech. Can you safely shoot + P ammo in a blowback gun? I never thought about that before.

Well-stated post...and spot on, IMHO.

I view the .380 as more of an up-close-and-personal defense piece. Yes, they're small capacity. Yes, they have small grip surfaces. Yes, they can be harder to control with +P ammo. But if you end up 1-6 feet away from some a-hole that you need to deal with, who cares about all the above? Just point to the center of mass and empty the magazine..

FWIW, I have the Sig P-238 coming soon. Had a chance to handle one a while ago and was very impressed with the features.. But I feel that 90% of the time I'll be carrying the Kahr around here..

I had a Browning .380 25 years ago that I mostly used to shoot fairly small sharks with when we got them to the boat or the beach. 100 pounds or so was the largest I tried it on, but it did the job. Shot a 125# alligator gar - in the head - with it, and it didn't do so much.

If someone needs more penetration, Buffalo Bore lists a .380 with a hard cast bullet at a MV of 1350 (I think I'm remembering right) fps. That would be pretty "sporty" in my straight blow-back action AMT!

This AMT is the one I reported on here awhile back that I found in an old RV I was wrecking. It is all stainless, has both manual and grip safeties, and a magazine disconnect. I replaced the trigger spring, got new magazines and grips, put a LaserMax laser sight meant for a Colt Mustang on it to alleviate the "no sights" problem - and I like it. Perfectly acceptable "belly gun", although I would not consider it as a primary self-defense weapon if I had a choice. Functions fine. I picked it up last night when investigating a strange noise, and it was rather comforting.

Redneck, yes sir, and it's a dam shame we even have to carry a gun today, but it's just a sad fact of life in what once was a great nation. And if you listen to some people, all we need to do is put up BIGGER SIGNS that read gun free zone because it is obvious the criminals can't see the ones that are there now. I would much rather carry some pocket change than a pistol, but I don't dare do that any more because these animals just won't rob you of your pocket change, they will then kill you so you can't identify them, or because the initiation into their gang requires they kill somebody.

I ALWAYS carry a Kahr P-380 loaded with Extreme Penetrator + P ammo here in the house and out on the property and everywhere else for that matter except the courthouse where they have metal detectors and guards. But I can understand why they would have that level of protection today. What I do not understand is why the politicians at the courthouse think they need armed guards, but the local school does not. They OBVIOUSLY think they are a lot more important than your school children or me. So if I leave this property, I also take something along in addition to the .380 that is serious protection and highly likely to kill what it hits.

You are going to love that little SIG. I still know a lot of law dogs who use them, mostly federal cops whose agencies have the resources to test various guns and determine which one best suits their needs. The fact that SIG guns often come out on top is a tribute to their attention to high quality building and materials.

I looked long and hard at the P-238 SIG, and I tried to rationalize how I could carry it concealed in my pocket every day, but I just can't get around that safety thing. I've found too many 1911's in my holster with the safety walked or brushed off to put that SIG in my pocket cocked with the safety on. Maybe it's just me, but even though I want that SIG, my old brain just won't let me do it.

I only personally know of one incident where a 1911 actually fired in a holster because of the safety being off, and other than a lot of excitement, it caused no real property damage and no one was hit although the bullet did pass through a restruant full of mostly truck drivers. You want to know how to empty a restruant full of truckers? Shoot a 45 slug down through the middle of it and that'll do it pert quick.

I am fine with the 380 for defense, SOME bullets are a little lacking in penetration. I'd be fine carrying 95 gr ball or another load I felt pen. better.

No sir. The Buffalo Bore 100 grain hard cast bullet is loaded to 1125 FPS in .380 + P. If you ever fired a 100 grain bullet at 1350 FPS in a blowback 380, the result would be a lot more than just "sporty."

I couldn't shoot the first generation LCP very well so I got rid of it. Then I picked up the LCP Custom with the red trigger and it shoots pretty good. Of coarse it helps that it has a decent trigger and usable sights.

Which .380 pocket pistol have extended mags available?

My mistake on the MV of the BB load. Still pretty potent for a .380, though!

Yes sir, it is, but it is just one of several really excellent loads for the .380 that are now available and they turn a .380 into a nasty little booger highly likely to cause considerable discomfort and possibly lethal to anything hit by it.

I do sometimes carry my Glock 42. When I do so, it is in a kydex IWB holster on my left hip. In my right front pants pocket I also carry my Smith Model 38.

If I go to town wearing a 380, it is likely hot and I am wearing shorts and a T shirt.

Truth told, however, I can carry my G43 anywhere the G42 will go.

These days, the 9mm is getting more travel time.

There are longer mags for the Lcp....I think ten rounds

Dat rain is gett'in in my shoes. Oh law, dat ole rain is in my shoes. I be get'in so tard of this dat it be giv'in me ah case of da blues.

Yes it is children. Now make that guitar bring tears. Bend those strings and pull off that note. Ahhhhh yes, yes, yes.

I gotta pistol in my pocket, Oh yeah there's a pistol in my pocket. I gotta razor in my shoe and ain't no tell'in what I moan do to you.

Put on yo red dress baby cause we go'in out tonight. Put on yo red dress momma, cause we go'in out tonight. I got my 32 gun in case some fool wanna start a fight.


Most all pistols have some kind of extended magazine available.

I don't use the P-230 a lot. It's small and light enough to slip into a coat/jacket pocket, but too big for regular pants pocket carry. Went thru a phase when I decided I needed a .380. Choices were a lot more limited in '88. The new manufacture Walthers had the worst triggers I'd ever tried, wish I had come across a colt govt .380 but didn't, found the SIG's and went with that. Yes, blow-back,fixed barrel. SIG's answer to the PP/PPK family, but much better trigger. Bigger grip than current trends, but much better to get ahold of and control. Has only accounted for a couple of woodchucks. I believe main difference from the P-232 is the newer model was tweaked to work with hollow points better, although mine handles ball and rounded-profile hollow points just fine. Don't use +P ammo. If I want more power I'll pick a bigger gun.

If you still want one don't wait to long, Sig is shutting of import and going with just US made stuff sometime soon, and the 232 is only made in Germany.

I have the Gen II, but not the Custom. The Gen II has an improved trigger pull, but not the new aluminum trigger, and it lacks the high sights of the Custom (so more of a snag-free profile). Fine gun for pocket carry (about the largest I'd consider for that purpose), and fine for taking a few quick shots with which to save your life, but no fun at all at the range. Downright painful, in fact, after about the third mag full.

I could shoot a thousand rounds through a Glock 17 in one range session without discomfort, but much more than three mags full in the diminutive Ruger LCP and I can hardly use my right hand for several hours thereafter. Don't exactly know why, but it's the case, so it's no range gun ... at least not for me. But then it's not designed to be, so no strikes against it on that account.

Sig's little 1911 style .380 is a luxury range pistol compared to the LCP, but not near as good as a pocket gun for self-defense. Much bulkier and heavier, and you have to worry about forgetting to switch off the thumb safety when your IQ drops by about half just at the moment you need it.

Well I just got around to finding some pics and up loading them. Here are my 2 .380's and the .45 commander.

I carry a Ruger LCP .380 loaded with the Buffalo Bore 100 gr Hard Cast load in my left front pocket as a BUG every day. It's small enough that you sometimes forget it's there.

Of course, though, it's only a back-up to either my Glock 32 or my 1911 Lightweight Commander that I carry as a primary CCW every day.

Nope, not after seeing folks shot with .380's. I'm into stopping the threat, not waiting around for the volunteer to bleed out.
9mm is bare minimum for stopping a fight, so I carry either a Mod 60 .357 or an Officer's Model .45 ACP.

Ed

S&W Bodyguard very thin and pocketable,once I got use to her very reliable and accurate.

I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed.

If they've already done it, does that count as real soon??

There is nothing like a Heckler and Koch P-7 K3. It is as accurate as any handgun could be and as usual the reliability and safety is top notch...

Excellent post, sir.. Especially the part I made 'bold'..

One thing I neglected to find out re: the Sig is if it has a half-cock feature. Anyone know that??

I am always amazed at courthouses an similar govt buildings....lawyers, and everyone that works there walks around the metal detectors...... Most workplace violence is done by people that work at those places......duhhhhhh.

[quote=shrapnel]

Show off! I'm just jealous and sorry that I didn't get one when they were affordable. Might be a bit big for everyday pocket carry, not to mention the abuse I wouldn't put it through.
For me, my Kahr CW380 represents the best compromise of weight, size, power, shootability, front pocket concealability and affordability. Would still love to have one of those K3s though to go along with my P7M8 I did buy when they were affordable.

Yep. H & K don't make no trash stuff that's for sure. That is a dang nice rig that you don't see very often.

Only the CHOSEN ONES got one of those, so I guess we know that is around here.

It also has the 22 kit and you can use it when you want to go on the cheap...

The CHOSEN ONE can stop showing off now. We of the great unwashed masses know we are not worthy and need a bath. And we need one of those H & K's too.

I don't know about the P238 but my P938 catches at around 25%. I would bet it's the same for the P238.

I always wanted one of those. They were $800 with the rimfire conversion at Siegle's guns in Oakland, CA - 1982

You suck, always pulling out the bangin' hardware...

Now they're $800 +$3000.

Shrap, You got a pic of that K3 next to a PSP?

I've got a Colt Mustang.380 stoked with Hornady CD that gets carried most of the time in a DeSantis pocket holster, sometimes in this pistol pocket attachment on my suspenders. There may be more popular mouse guns but I like the feel of this one and the 1911 style.

Next to an M13, but the camera doesn't show the difference in size. The K3 is about 75% the size of the M13. That doesn't sound like much difference, but it is considerable...



This is a deer I shot with it, and you can see in the picture how small it is in my hand...

Didn't they do P7 K3 with a European mag release like the PSP?

I have a Beretta 84F. It has what I consider to be an unacceptable safety. Mine is the later variant with an allegedly improved version of the safety. However, with the lever moved toward safe until it clicks into a detent, the gun will still fire if the trigger is pulled. Makes it unacceptable for any kind of social work, IMO. I like the little Beretta. It has all the beauty of Italian design and craftsmanship, and it feels good in my hands, but I will probably send it down the road once all my .380 ammo is done being plinked.

I didn't feel like reading all four pages, but if nobody has mentioned Ammo Quest, find his .380 summary on YouTube. What I get from it is that the only boolit worth a darn for social work in .380 is the Hornady 90gr XTP going at the right velocity. He tests it in a range of factory ammo with various speeds. You can compile his results and draw your own conclusions. It has a smaller hollow point than boolits designed for 9mm, so expansion is controlled at .380 velocities to a size that provides appropriate penetration.

P938 is my carry gun. It shoots a real cartridge. Effectively as much bad guy medicine as a 1911 in a much more concealable package. (Not intending to start a 9 vs 45 war here, but that's my take on it.) The only thing in its size class that even kinda works with my USP45 full-size sized hands. And the trigger ain't bad.

The mag release is the same as the M-8 or M-13 where you can use your thumb near the trigger guard....

Well...I ain't buyin one of them then. I'm buyin me a Bob Wills!

I saw the mag release on yours. I thought they had a variation with the euro mag release. I'll have to look around.

Ruger LCP like this one but in brown, every day, front pocket.

I do not, my light carry gun is a Colt LW Commander in 38 Super, a really sweet little piece, hope to never need them, but spect the 125 gr Barnes HP's at 1341 fps would get the job done.

Mostly carry it in a El Paso leather right side slightly forward canted holster tucked in tight right over my jeans pocket.

A+1111, a mint 1908 Colt 380 with 95 gr HP's , when the dress and environment call for it! v best win poor

I have carried a Combat Commander .45 for decades.
I'd like a Smith scandium .357 but until I score a deal on one, bought a Ruger lcp .380. Cheap, shoots decent, no problems.

How in the world do you KNOW where your firearm will be used, and the apparent fact that the range will be short?

I have never been able to pre-determine what range my next shooting would occur at, let alone exactly where it was going to happen.

If you have a Crystal Ball, I sure would like to borrow it.

I shot the hell out of my P232 and PPK/s today. They are both tack drivers. I forgot what a pleasure the Walther is to shoot.

I've allways been a revolver man J-frame but I've tried some of the new .380's and finally decided on the S&W Bodyguard 380 after practice with the DAO trigger I am very happy with this pocket gun.

Recently picked up a Kimber .380. Damned nice little pistol and so far it's one fantastic shooter; accurate and mild. It front pocket carries as well or better than the .38 snubby and weighs less.

No problem. That shotgun stays in my bedroom ALL THE TIME and is ALWAYS in the same location so I don't have to look for it. That is because I intend to only use it in the bed room and highly likely at night since that is the only time I am usually in the bed room. Therefore I can predetermine the range at which I will use it and exactly where I will use THAT PARTICULAR SHOTGUN.

See how easy that is and you don't even need a ctystal ball to figure the range or where it will be used. Well, maybe you do. Some people just can't seem to figure these kinds of things out for themselves. I guess you can always dial 911. Good luck with that.

If you're going to try to come off as a bad ass and pick a fight about defensive capabilities and engaging bad guys, you MIGHT just want to choose someone other than Mackay to start it with.

Just a hint, before you end up looking like a complete buffoon and a total ass.

Not to worry. You beat me to that, but then, you always do.

I don't keep a shotgun in the bed room to try to be a bad ass. I keep it there for bad guys who come in the night. That isn't difficult for most people to understand and I am probably not the only one around here that does it. Does that mean the others are trying to be a bad ass too? And what is it to you if they are? It's their shotgun and their bed room and they can load their shotguns with any dam thing they choose without any comments from you about it. I really don't think those of us who keep shotguns in our bed rooms give a dam what you or anyone thinks about that. I could be wrong, but I'm probably not.

No Bob, you're not the only one that keeps a shotgun in the bedroom. There's been an 870 riot gun leaning against the wall between my bed and the nightstand for so long it may have taken root. The chamber is empty and the safety is off. I want em to hear that unmistakable sound a 12ga pump makes when it's racked... just before the P--- starts running down their leg.

Bob,

Clearly, you haven't a clue, and most clearly you've been here before.

You insinuated knowing quite a bit about tactical and defensive situations, and then stepped on your dick in the process. Mackay has considerable experience, and is generous in offering real expertise, that trumps your fantasies.

Back peddle as you can; you'll only get but so far.

Ron,

Big difference between that and Bob's diatribe. You know better.

diatribe?...I think Bill O'Riley used that as the "word of the day" one time.

Quote: 4ager
I insinuated nothing. I said quote: If keeping a shotgun in your bedroom qualifies anyone to know a lot about tactical and defensive situations, I'll bet every guy on this forum knows a lot about tactical and defensive situations. It isn't rocket science to most of us; it's called common sense. But I can see that it is causing you a lot of problems understanding that simple fact.

But uhhhh, those wadded up pink panties you always wear are obviously causing a lot of discomfort. Maybe you ought to give it a rest.

Folks like myself that have grown up around guns but have no professional training are the hardest of the hard heads, most of us have an I.Q. above room temperature and have sorted a lot of things out for ourselves, even to the point of actually thinking about the "what ifs". Sadly many times we are just wrong. My advice is take professional training classes as sometimes we don't even know what we don't know. Pride may indeed get you killed. Owning 50 pairs of expensive tennis shoes does not make us LeBron anymore than 50 guns makes us Wild Bill Hickok.

Of course we can just use Joe Biden's advice and after your rack your shotgun fire two blasts out the window into the air.

Bob,

Whatever your issue is, it must suck to have it.

Common sense and facts would be knowing that you don't always know what ranges and situations might come up. That was, and is, Mackay's point. Of course, that would have required reading comprehension and some degree of intelligence; both of which you are failing to display. Why, exactly, you've gone from "new guy" to "ass hole" in record time is known only to you. Why you now want to start arguments just to feel like you've "won" is also something known only to you.

Oh, and don't worry about my boxers. They are in fine shape, and continence is no problem at all here. I suspect you've passed that milestone long ago, which may explain the fascination with another man's underwear.

He probably did. O'Reilly is an ass of epic proportions, and an anti-2A crusader, but he (or his staff) at least has a decent command of the English language.

Excellent advice.

I agree, I only watch him because at the end of the day I can vent my frustrations by yelling at the TV. . It's entertainment, like this subject has become. Like we use to say in the 60's...or was it the 50's?.... Peace

Truth.

Just don't you go and throw things at the TV. That could get expensive quickly.

Love your sense of humor Lobo. And you are correct about what 4ager has made of this thread. But maybe it's all he has, so who knows?

Quote 4aqer:
Yeah, one of us sure is having comprehension issues. What part of the shotgun will be used in the bed room at short range did you not comprehend? I am not going to use pejorative language with you today because I don't know your situation. I see that you are approaching 17,000 posts on the Camp Fire. That means that you spend a lot of time here which means you don't have a lot to do with your life. And, the camp Fire likely isn't the only place you post to and frequent. I am going to cut you some slack because you probably need it and I can afford to give it because I am living the absolute best life.

I once got into a protracted discussion with a guy on a small forum dedicated to BCPR shooting. I own a hunting camp in the deep south, so I invited everyone on the forum to bring their BCPR rifles and come down to the camp for four days of black powder rifle shooting, guitar picking, blues playing, a little beer drinking, and we would cook a whole hog and get to know each other. Sixteen guys actually did bring their rifles and guitars and showed up for that and we had a blast. The guy that I had the difference of opinion with declined to come and I thought it may be because I owned the camp and he may feel out of place which made me feel like an ass because it was only a disagreement and I thought nothing more of it. He had his opinions and I had mine and I was okay with that. Not a big deal to me.

So I extended an open personal invitation to him to come to the shoot on the forum so everyone could see that I had no ill feelings towards the guy. He declined saying his car was broke, he lived in South Dakota, and he couldn't drive down. I offered to put up the first 100 bucks to buy him a plane ticket and very quickly, we had 500 bucks pledged from the other guys for his tickets. Then he said that he had a fear of flying and couldn't do that. Then one member of the forum who lived in Canada said that he was driving down in his camper and would go through South Dakota and pick him up and drive him down and then back home. The guy once again declined. So the guy in Canada drove down through South Dakota and looked this ole boy up.

What he found was a man living in public housing with an old Dodge in the parking lot with the paint peeling and the steering wheel and half the steering column lying in the front seat. The man was confined to a wheel chair and had a colostomy, so he couldn't get very far from a bath room. He had one 30-30 Marlin rifle, a black powder pistol replica, a buck skin coat and an old woman who lived with him but was not his wife who bitched all the time. When I learned that, I really felt bad for having taken issue with the guy because compared to him, I have the world on a string. I am happy, healthy, and well situated in retirement and thankful for all of that.

50 years ago old fat men sat in their garage and talked around the world with short wave radio's to entertain themselves. Today they sit in front of their computers and type on internet forums and there is nothing wrong with that. It gives their otherwise miserable lives some meaning. If you read much of what they post, you learn that they just like to talk, but don't really have any real knowledge other than the fact that they may own several firearms, which of course, means that they are experts of some sort. And again, there is nothing wrong with that until they begin to make accusations and become argumentative, rude and nasty. They usually quickly resort to that because it's all they have. They can't have a discussion based on information and facts. They are just fat, old men who never really made it in life and now they sit around and make 17,000 postings to just one internet forum. I know you voted for Obama twice and he let you down. Frankly 4ager, I feel sorry for you. All that hope and change business didn't work out for you.

But today beginning at noon we are having a hamburger cook out and five stand shootout at the range and I have to go load the truck and get ready to go. I hope you enjoy your day because I am sure going to enjoy mine.

Before you start feeling sorry for me, in order to make yourself feel better, I'll head you off at that pass. Rather odd, though, that somehow and for some reason you've turned your posts on this thread into a fixation on me. Why, well only you know the answer. But, I'll humor you if only to feed into your issues.

Life is pretty damned good, actually. House, wife, kids, stable and pretty decent job, better than adequate pay, and a relatively nice future ahead of me (God willing). I live in an area where I can hunt, fish, shoot, and enjoy the outdoors quite a bit (and I do). As soon as the weather breaks and I get a few things off the desk, I think I'll hit the tail end of the shad run here locally (again), and maybe try to put another gobbler in the freezer. The jake from this fall needs "company".

As for the "hope and change" business; another swing and a miss. I'm a tax PAYING (as in I pay in and don't receive) member of society, solid conservative voter who despises Hussein and the left. Life NRA member, member of the state 2A defense organization as well, and a hunter education instructor. Sorry to burst that bubble of yours, Bob, but you're off base, again.

In fact, I've hunted with more than a few members of this Campfire and will do so again this fall. So much for your thinking that I'm one of the few that hide in their basements or houses that their parent's bought them (there's at least one of those on here) and avoid human contact. That'd be yet another incorrect assumption on your part.

So, you can insinuate (again) that my life sucks just to make you feel better about yours, but you'd be dead wrong there as well. Neat story, though, and well played in trying to paint me into what you wish I was, instead of who and what I am.

Enjoy your day.

No, I don't..............the smallest gun that I carry is a J-framed .38, occasionally as the only gun, most usually as a 2nd gun if carried at all.

Primary calibers carried are 9mm or 45 ACP about 50/50 these days.

MM

Cool story bro.

Is that you Josey Wales???......lol


Go looking for trouble, strapped to the hilt in a drinking joint, it's never too hard to find.

I reckon so.

I reckon so..."spit"

When I carry, it is my TCP and I carry it because it is small enough that I will carry it.

People talk about the TCPs, but I have fed mine everything up to 102 gr TC, including some things in mixed mags and the only failures I have had can be traceed to the guy reloading the ammo.

Hey reload for and shoot wheelguns and single shots what to I know!

If I decide to go armed it is 357 or something starting with a 4.

i am kind of a fan of shotguns, and the different makes and models, also of the ammo.
I think bob might be talking about that fiochhi copper plated stuff, i think it's running like 1500fps. I have often thought about buying a box to mess with.

Nothing wrong with a shotgun, the racking thing is all TV. Some prefer 5.56 cal carbines as they are more familiar with this gun. Bob you are an OK guy, and obviously a staunch 2cnd amendment man. I have started taking training classes in my "Fall Season" it's a lot of fun and damn if those kids don't know something. This place is not unlike my hunting camps, someone always goes to bed early due to the arguments.

Exactly correct MM. But if you read these threads posted here about what guys carry every day, it is obvious that I am not the only one who goes prepared. Those of us who carry every day don't go looking for trouble, but we do go prepared for it. My state allows concealed carry in establishments that serve alcohol, so that is not an issue here.

As a former deputy sheriff, I am more than a little familiar with the criminal mind set and part of the job was to check on juke joints. We were always armed when we did that. We were not armed because we were looking for trouble. We were armed to protect our lives.

Apparently you have never been at a night club at close up time when everybody has left and it's quiet except for the band taking their instruments and amplifiers to the door. There is a reason we all pull our cars and trucks up close to the door to load our gear out at the same time. There is a reason most musicians who play in those kinds of places go armed. There is a reason the doors are locked and the alarm turned on while the night receipts are counted and prepared for bank deposit.

Night clubs take in a LOT OF CASH. I or other band members sometimes accompany the club close up person to the night deposit at the nearest bank at 3 or 4 AM and you can bet that person is armed. He isn't armed because he is looking for trouble. He is armed to protect his life because whether you believe it or not, there really are bad guys out there.

This thread his gone to total shït...

A quote from the movie "The Mountainmen"

"What's the matter with ya, don't ya wanna have fun no more"

BW,

OK I get it, there's a little more to the story.

When you said you go to the juke joints to satisfy a craving for bourbon, guitar, and blues, I took you at your word.

My mistake.

Yeah, I've done my share of tending bar, pushing customers out at closing, counting cash, and cleaning up.

Alcohol is helluva thing. Brings folks true personalities right to the surface. The happy, the horny, the surly, the depressed, etc, etc.

ah, that racking is not just a t.v. thing. Many many years ago i and a city cop got a call about a drunk guy with a gun threatening to kill some people, himself too, behind whiskey row in prescott. When we pulled up, a crowd of drunks egging him on.
My partner pulled the 12 guage, got out and racked it. The crowd and the stupid got real quiet. My partner gave hime a choice, lay the revolver down on the ground like a good boy, or die.
He layed it down on the ground. That was my introduction to law enforcement.
Another episode a few years later at about 2am in the morning with another misunderstood person, that hearing the gun being wracked actually urinated on himself. I use to hate that when that happened and you had to put them in a squad car, like drunks vomiting in your back seat.

Hey this thread served a good purpose, i pulled out my manurhin walther 380 out of the safe. The one with no bluing left on the back of the grip, and actually reloaded it after cleaning.

When I was a young bad a$$ (1969..ya I'm old) I worked part time as a bouncer in the most popular night spot in town. I carried a Baby Browning in my pocket. Back then you didn't have a choice of ammo in .25cal. The local law told me if I ever had to shoot someone with that little pea shooter to make sure they weren't on the other side of a screen door. It's amazing that I lived through those years.

Years ago, my BIL sent a couple of burglars scurrying with the sound of a slide cycling. Not sayin' it's tactically sound - just that some people do react to it.

Bet you wish you had that Baby Browning back..

I had one - sold it - regret it to this day.. NIB it was $42 back then...and yah, I'm old too..

+1.

I don't see carrying a 380 when small, light offerings of better (in my opinion, one shared by quite a few after controlled research, facts/studies, etc.) SD cartridges are available these days. I find a Ruger LC9 as easy or nearly so, to conceal as any 380, and my confidence is greater in the 9mm or 38 cartridge.

I wouldn't want to catch a 380, and it is MUCH better than nothing, but to my thinking, I'd rather carry a bigger cartridge in a nearly-as-small platform. YMMV.

It's good to hear from those who have been there. That always makes a BIG DIFFERENCE in understanding. When you look out the club window at 3 AM and see two guys sitting out there in their car smoking 30 feet away from where you are parked, obviously waiting for something an hour after closing time and you have 5 to 10 grand in cash in a bank deposit bag and you have to go out there and get in your car, then things begin to get personal. Most people have never been there, so they can't relate.

Ain't it funny how when that shoe is on your foot, all of a sudden it's a good idea to be heavily armed even if you are at a beer joint?? And no. That is not the time for a .380.

a 380 or even an old 22LR Escort can be plenty if you're clever...

That's good stuff.

When Bob was relating about getting jocked-up in his modified army jacket, and the two 1911s, my mind went right to The Taxi Driver. I was envisioning the mohawk, and aviators too.....grin.

Lol. We're on the same wavelength.
No disrespect to Bob.
The modified jacket lit the bulb.

This has been a fun thread

The last movie that I saw at a movie house was one of the Dirty Harry movies about 30 years ago or maybe more. I have not had a TV since it went digital. Some of you boys can quote lines from movies that I never heard of, so unless its "make my day," I don't understand where you are coming from.

My vest is well done. It was cut, altered and sewn by a local seamtress and it is not a piece of crap. She replaced the military buttons with some neat ones that make it look entirely differnt from anything military. It's clean and pressed and looks neat because I wear it on stage and it looks like it was made to be a vest. I always wear a nice shirt under it and sometimes even a tie if we play a fancy club and most of the band does something similar. We try to play good blues and look good doing it. It's longer than most vest and that's why I wear it. I don't want anything showing under it and with my guitar hanging on the strap where it does, it could accidentally show hardware with a shorter vest. Many people have asked me where I got it because they see it and like it, but they don't know what's under it, which is the whole reason for it being there in the first place.

Thank you for the clarification.

Since I don't know how a situation will unfold, nor the ranges, (I just don't have your insight) I will just call 911 and let them handle the bad guys for me.

Bob,

Just for conversation, The Outlaw Josey Wales, and The Taxi Driver, are both 40 year-old movies. Released in 1976.

If you get a TV someday you can see them right at home.

"Cruiser ready" means a full tube and an empty chamber. Most shotguns have a floating firing pin, which is not and cannot be made drop safe. They are thus carried empty in vehicles to prevent discharging in a crash or when driving over a particularly severe bump/pothole/up on a curb. So a cop will always have to load one in the chamber when exiting the vehicle.

But for protecting a stationary premises, most trainers recommend having your weapon ready to be put into action as fast as possible well before you can see or otherwise positively ID any bad guys.

We had 14" 870s for embassy security. We always cleared them, dry-fired on an empty chamber, then loaded up the mag tube with #4 buckshot. Kept in the rack, off safe.

If needed, simply rack the slide and press the trigger.

Shane,

14" 870s are still standard issue for DSS high threat protection teams. Every team has them issued, though they rarely get fielded.

Oddly though for whatever reason, the hajis really fear shotguns.

I understand the fear of handguns, as that is often a primary tool for executions, but never bothered to ask about the shotguns.

14" 870s were the issue scattergun at my last PD. They will kinda spoil you for anything else.

I'd imagine the carbine makes more sense nowadays.

But a 12ga is a formidable weapon within it's limitations. For internal security in essentially a hardened office building, it seemed appropriate.

I left my last embassy (Zagreb, Croatia) in 1995. I'd imagine things have changed for embassy security in the last 21 years. At that time we still carried S&W M19 revolvers.


I still keep a shotgun handy. Basic 870, 18", 6-round magazine, magpul stock. Along with the Glocks and an AR carbine.

OK shotgun guy's, since this thread is already off the tracks. What's your opinion of the Mossberg 590A1 9 shot Heavy walled service model? I've always been an 870 guy but this one interests me. Unfortunately, nobody around here stocks it.

OK guys, since this thread is already off the tracks, I'll say that my long gun is a Colt 6920, and the only shotgun that isn't locked up is a display piece only. I'm more of a generalist, and the rifle is capable of solving more problems. That rationale also is why I don't carry a .380, which I guess ties it into the thread even though that question wasn't asked either.

Right turn, Clyde.

i have more than one shotgun in this area. I think the mossberg 590a1 is my favorite. Hey, it's cool, it's got a bayonet lug.
it also has a heavy barrel, big peep/rifle sights kind of like the ashley/williams ghost sight, has spring loaded spare round carriers in the buttstock, and an ambi safety. Mossberg did get something right with that one.

You can google "the desert fox" a guy that escaped from the state pen in arizona. You can also google Marston, the highway patrol officer killed in taking this low life out.
I was working in the yard when they brought marston's vehicle back in after the gunfight, full of holes and looking like a hog at been butchered in the front seat.
Long story cut short, eckert and marston were shooting at one another, bad guy gets a hold of the shotgun, and hit marston point blank range in the gut with double ought buck.
He survived long enough to get him to the hospital but they couldn't keep him alive. Bad guy did end up on the ground after wounding another deputy. A highschool classmate of mine working highway patrol did finally kill the guy.
but i will never forget that car, not will i forget that load fired into the good guy did not immediately kill him.
He was a good guy by the way, the cop not the puke that killed him.
the moral of the story is even a shotgun is not always indicative of immediately putting a guys lights out.

Besides handguns I keep three shotguns in different place's in the house...not in display mode. This one, another 870 and a Mod. 97 18". I'm not paranoid, just careful.

But I'll bet he wan't able to fight any more after he was shot with it though.

MM

I wanna see a picture of Bob's vest.

I would say you are quite well armed, and coupled with your couple decades of service, a force to be reckoned with.

aluk,

you really got a thread going here...it should surely march onward...


that Taxi stuff nearly put me on the floor--great laughs.



"you boys gonna pull them pistols or whistle Dixie?"



they are a little hard to find, but one of the better made .380 rigs was the Beretta model 70s. all steel, so fairly heavy, and significantly bigger than a Ruger LCP by contrast, so not a real good reason to ever carry one in this day and age.

if you're asking this question for some idea/direction, i'd bet most fellas here will point you towards a good, compact, modern 9mm Lugger....

Yes, the Beretta 70s is a great pistol for a 380...........I still have one that I bought new.

But you're right; might as well carry a comparably sized 9mm today.

MM

Generally I'm more inclined to grab the AR carbine for any sign of trouble with humans.

We live rural, but have several neighbors within stray bullet range. It seems sensible to keep a shotgun handy primarily for critter trouble outdoors, esp after dark. No need to be concerned about projectiles traveling to the neighbors.

I am rather fond of the 870 myself

fire two blasts out the window, as well! I am not making any noise fellas you all do as your compelled.

But when it comes to home defense, I believe that while the racking of a shotgun can be an assertive sound recognized by man and beast alike, it is also akin to yelling out, “Mr. Bad Guy, I am in here and I am armed. Please take your time, contemplate your actions, and if you still decide not to leave my home, you may now figure out how best to assault me!”

I putting a bayonet lug on my 870...

According to 4ager, all of you boys with the shotguns are quote:"Trying to come off as bad asses and picking fights about defensive capabilities. So all of you might want to just knock it off before you end up looking like complete buffons and asses."

But I see that you boys pay about as much attention to him as I do, so carry on.

Here's a 15 second clip of me with my 870 "house" gun. It also works great for rattlesnakes at the Ranch.

Glad to know you've spent your weekend thinking about me, Bob. Considering that you're tracking my posts now, you pay me quite a bit of attention.

I was a bit premature in when you'd make a complete buffoon and a total ass of yourself, though. It came later.

I want to see you shoot a Baby Browning. 1/2 finger on the grip? How did you get your finger in and out of the trigger guard? Those things are tiny, and you ain't.

Hell, given the alternative between being shot by a .25 or having you whoop on them, you might have gotten a surprising number of takers for the .25.

I tried carrying a Para-Ordinance P-12, Detonics Combat Masterpiece, S&W AirLite J frame. After a few hours they were all too big, too heavy, generally uncomfortable no matter how I carried them. Consequently I'd rarely carry. Finally acquired a Seecamp in .380 and now I'm rarely not carrying. Its the smallest .380 available I believe, very well made, a bit pricy but much cheaper than the collection of small guns that came before it. It fits easily in a rear pocket holster the size of a wallet. It is rather unpleasant to shoot, hurts the trigger finger. But if it is needed it is likely to be with me rather than in the gun safe. A .45 would certainly be more effective but I figure anyone receiving a round or two of .380 Silvertips had better seek medical attention rather than continue the altercation.

Exactly my opinion of the Ruger LCP. I can get two mags full out of one before it starts to become unpleasant to shoot. After five or six mags full, and my shooting hand is near useless (along with uncontrollable shaking) for several hours. It's a good pocket gun, though, because you don't care about that when you're going for your gun for life saving purposes, and you can't get much smaller in an effective caliber for carrying in your pants pocket.

That said, I generally don't carry a pocket gun. My regular carry gun is a Glock 17 carried IWB.

MM,

I've read your posts over the past few years, and have gathered from them that you very much advocate the 1911's--and the better ones at that. Astute choices. With that in mind, I wasn't surprised to see that you own a Beretta m 70s, one of the best .380's ever made. All steel, single action, the 1911 style safety, and similar trigger make for good medicine...and like the 1911 system, it is perhaps best utilized by more experienced handgunners who choose to tote the .380 Auto round.

Taking nothing away from the Beretta 70s, H&K P7 K3, or the DA Walther PPKs-- these days--with so many beginners obtaining permits--i think many of them are better off with DAO rigs--and a reasonable share of these folks are even better off with a revolver--due to its simplicity. The trend to develop/miniaturize rigs lately seems to be about one of the hottest things going.

In .380, great rigs that are on the tiny side are the Seecamp, Kahr, Ruger LCP, etc. As much as I like the Seecamp, I prefer it in the .32 instead--and while the Kahr is one of the best rigs, for personal reasons I'll not invest in one...

Not long after the Ruger LCP first came out, I believe it was in the late summer of 2008 that I tried one out. Was surprised to be able to put 5 out of 5 rounds into the inner circle of a paper plate at 20 yards/60 feet offhand, slowfire. Surprised, in that the crude sights actually were milled such that it was "zeroed". The LCP is a fairly good pistol...

Shane's reference to Josey and Taxi got me good, as I could see in my mind's eye that green army coat, and the ridiculous "tire skid" haircut (of course along with a .22 rimfire Escort mistakenly billed in that film as a .25 Auto....)

With advances in the industry, there are many good choices for a suitable .380 Auto--and as the industry continues to advance, the tiny 9 mm's will become even more and more appealing for everyday CC...

Very true, and they have already got the .380's so small and the ammo so hot, it's now difficult to shoot and control some of them. About all you can say about them is they are better than having nothing in your pocket when a bad guy comes around. They are about to get the 9mm's to that same stage. At some point you have to begin to question how far some of this kind of thing can go and if you really want to go there. You might be better off with a slightly larger, heavier, easier to shoot and control pistol, but then, would you then also carry it like you would do a smaller, lighter pistol? That is the question all of us have to decide for ourselves. But you have to ask yourself how much of a compromise can you make on size and weight and still be able to shoot the darn thing well, and if you can't shoot it well, why bother?

not relevant deleted.

HV,

You're a very astute guy as well who never seems to miss a thing & I always pay attention to your posts as they offer good information & insights, quite often on interesting & more diverse subjects than what I tend to focus on routinely.

As usual, you are absolutely correct that in general, SA's are better suited to more experienced people than they are for novices......couldn't agree more with them starting with DAO's or revolvers, too.



I'd say that's better than very good shooting with that package..........

MM

Bob,

I've read a number of your posts, and enjoy them. I can readily discern that you know quite a bit about various handgun rigs. Some of your posts, like the vest story, gave me a good chuckle when picturing that in the mind's eye--doubly so when envisioned with Shane's post.

Regarding small rigs and hot ammo--I do not advocate the use of it for carry. I've found in testing some of the hotter stuff in smaller rigs, that on occasions, reliability in slide operation goes out the window, not to mention how hard it is on a rig when frequently used.

I shoot pocket rigs a lot, primarily because they are difficult to master at heightened firing speeds--something I like to challenge myself with. Subsequently, when one then fires a mid or full size rig, it is much easier to excel with.

When I saw the pic that you posted with the guitar, I had to do a double take, as your appearance was a dead ringer for our family doc from back in the late 1970's...

MM,

Thank you very much for those good words--I really appreciate them. The sentiment/respect is mutual...

I have a select group of guys whose posts I look for too--as it is very easy to discern those who have significant skill and knowledge, and I always find I'm learning from reading of other's experience's--it keeps me coming back. On occasion, when I can get a good, useful tidbit--or a laugh--it's all the better...

Hi_Vel.

Yes, there is a pretty good number of very knowledgeable people here that I always pay attention to.

Not an all inclusive or complete list by any means, but just the ones that come to mind the most often. Some I have corresponded with directly from time to time, others not so much

Mallard Addict is a very knowledgeable guy across many different platforms including AR's as well as handguns.

Mackay Sagebrush is a wealth of information on all gun & security related subjects.

RJM has a huge amount of personal experience & instructor background & always offers good info.

RGK has a broad range of shooting & firearms experience.

JOG, though he doesn't post much anymore, has great technical information.

Gun Geek (Kevin Gibson) has a broad range of experience & knowledge, though sometimes goes of on some strange tangents or topics.

There are many more, but besides yourself, I always pay attention & have learned a thing or 3 over time from these particular guys.

Best Regards,

MM

anyone seen one of these, it's called an Ideal conceal .380 double barrel that is supposed to look like a cell phone. The bottom half drops down as a handle exposing the trigger.

I hope some fool doesn't answer the wrong phone and blow their brains out.

Now THAT is classic LOBO !!! Thanks for the chuckle.


Quote Hi-vel


I just shot a box of Underwood Extreme Penetrators this afternoon in a little Kahr P-380 and your words are true. It's all I can do to keep that little sucker on target for rapid follow up shots because there isn't much to hold on to. That Underwood stuff is nasty and hard on the little pistol. I also had along a little Kel-Tec P3AT that I've carried since Kel-Tec started making 380's and until I got the Kahr. No telling how many rounds I shot through the P3AT, but they have all been standard stuff, or my reloads which are standard loads. I shot it very well easily making quick follow up shots even though the Kahr pistol is of much higher quality and has better sights and trigger. But load it with dynamite and I can shoot the Kel-Tec better using standard ammo.


I can shoot a 45 auto on repeat shots faster and more accurately than the Kahr loaded with dynamite and I know dang well I can shoot faster and more accurately with a model 19 Smith.

Small is great for carry, but not so much for shooting when loaded with hot loads. What is it that Clint Smith says about that? A firearm is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable.

Besides my .380 I have a Double Tap Derringer in 9mm. It's a 2 shot over and under with an extra 2 rounds stored in the handle. This gun also comes in a .45acp. I have shot the .45 and I can tell you after 2 shots you won't want to shoot it again. It's so thin it comes back into the web of your hand and it hurts like hell. I've never been recoil sensitive but this gun is NOT a fun gun to shoot in either caliber. Having said that it carry's very inconspicuously in a wallet type holster either in the front or back pocket. It can be considered a bug or a better than nothing close range defense weapon.

I don't have a 380, but the Beretta 84 is the one I would look for, if I was looking.

I just can't warm up to tiny pistols.

Those are sweet. My local shop had one new from Beretta on the shelf a few weeks ago. I handled it and liked it. Reasonable price, too. Just couldn't justify it when they make 9mms about that size, or smaller. Then again, it held 12 or 13 rounds in a double stack mag, and with modern loads that would be pretty effective.

That's kind how I see it. If it's going to be the size/weight of a Beretta 84, might as well roll with a Glock 19.

Takes me right back to the Glock 17 I've been carrying since dirt was young.

I got a Bass Pro flyer last week advertising a Browning 1911 .380. Had not seen these before, might like to handle one for size and feel.

Mike

It's a neat piece, but it's not something I'd consider carrying.

Size is halfway between the little Browning 1911/22 and a Gov't Model. They basically scaled down the Gov't Model in dimensions to have it built around the .380 cartridge instead of the .45ACP. Handling will be just like a shrunken Gov't Model; which ain't a bad thing.

It'd be a neat piece to shoot, a good "trainer" for someone trying to learn the mechanics of a 1911 (especially if the person is smaller framed; think "youth sized"), and a fun range toy, but for carry I can't think of a reason why.

Holsters are very tough to find.....plus if I recall, it had some plastic parts I didn't care for....neat gun to play with though.

Hey Sean, what is your problem? I often carry the original, a MKIV Series 80 Government .380!

Upper left and compared to Glock 42 and Colt Commander .45

T, my old friend, if there was a slight implied in that quote of mine it was entirely unintentional.

The point I was trying (and failing, obviously) to make is that the Browning 1911 .380 is a neat piece, but for carry if you're going to carry a .380, it just doesn't make sense to me to go BUY one. Now, if you happen to have something as deliciously nice as that Colt of yours, then why not carry it?

However, that Colt is smaller than the Browning (in both length and height). And, if you're going to be looking at a .380 to carry, today, there are smaller, lighter .380s available in or near that price range (G42, Kimber Micro, LCP, etc.), or alternatively if you're looking at something that goes 18 oz empty and measures 7.5" overall, you can either have a more substantial round than the .380 in that package (easily) and/or more than 9 rounds on deck. That's easily in the Beretta 84 size range and the Cheetah gives you 14 rounds, or in the weight range as a dimensionally smaller G43 that gives you 9x19 capabilities.

Don't get me wrong, the 1911 .380 is a NEAT little pistol and I'd not mind having one. If I had one, I'd carry it, but I can't see going an buying one with a primary purpose of CCW.

As for carrying the .380, you know I have in the past and in fact there's a .380 in my pocket as I type this, so it's not a knock on the cartridge (though I do recognize it's limitations).

No insult perceived Sean, I have been hurting for the past few days and may come across a bit short, sorry about that. As to the smaller .380's, they are for less arthritic hands than mine. Got rid of the K-T P3AT for the Glock 42, just a BUNCH easier on the hands. I will tell you what though, that Colt .380 is a pure joy to shoot, I can burn 100 rounds through it at a session with no trouble to the old paws.

The G42 is a taste bigger and lighter but actually holds one round less than the Colt. Of course I would rather lose it than the Colt!

Son finally talked me out of the 1903 Colt .32. and daughter is getting quite eloquent in her pitch for the .gov .380, rot's a ruck on dat Keri dear!

My dear friend, that you are hurting is the worst news I've gotten. I am so sorry to hear that.

You bring up a great point about shootability, too. Those of us still in pretty good shape and with our strength don't think about or understand the needs/requirements of those who don't.

The point you and others have made about certain pistols being uncomfortable to shoot is something else I'd been thinking about recently, and playing with mathematically. There's a correlation between weight and recoil, and I think there's a definable limit, or at least a range that's definable, where things just start to hurt. I'm still working on the finer points, but the math is solid.

Trust me my friend, you would not realize that I am the same guy you and A met a few years ago. But life goes on till it stops, nuttin' ya can do about it.

Also passed on the S&W 60 and carry the J frame .32 H&R when toting a revolver. You either adapt or give up, I ain't about to give up!!!!!

the G42 is a nice pistol, I have one that is not going anywhere.

We'd NEVER suspect you of being one to give up. Adapt, yes, and easily so. Give up; never.

I'll not tell A you're suffering. She thinks the world of you and it would make her cry.

Then do not mention it. It is just old Uncle Arthur rearing his ugly head. Doc started me on a new med that should kick in in a couple more days. Can't take Aleve or Advil with it but if it works the hell with it.

Meanwhile I plug along at the Sheriff's Office And St Vincent's society. Ain't tied to a wheel chair just yet.

I just bought a Beretta Pico this weekend. I also have a Nano.

Good points.. And I have to admit it's been a couple years since I brought out one of the SRHs.. With my wrists now giving me trouble I wonder if I can even shoot those things w/o pain?

Guess I'll have to find out. If it's just too uncomfortable it might be time to trade 'em off for something lighter.

My wife has much more issues with arthritis than I, and the most she can handle is one of the SP101s in .32 H&R.

But she's OK with the Kahr P-380, so if the ammo's right it might be a better option for a purse-gun..

I love my little Colt Mustang pocketlite, anyone got one of these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M61pTas47_g

Nice pistol Lobo.

At 12:56 Hickok demonstrates the fast combat accuracy that these medium-power single action autos can deliver.
Would be difficult to match that speed with a Chief, LCP, etc.

I've got the Sig version of that gun, and it's far easier to shoot than the Ruger LCP. Only problem with it is that it's a bit heavy for a pants pocket gun (for me), and has that thumb safety.

The picture isn't my gun, mine has an ambi safety. I handled the Sig in both .380 and 9mm and I liked the size and feel of the Colt better for me. It shoots like a champ.

The SIG doesn't feel nearly as good as the Colt; the ergos are off. The Kimber, however, nails it in those regards.

I palmed both before I bought my P938. I thought the Sig felt much better in hand. Mine is the model with the wrap around grip and extended magazine. I have yet to shoot a compact that feels or handles as well. IMO, nothing short about the P238 either.

I have never owned A Colt Mustang 380, but have heard a lot of guys say the same thing Lobo. They all like that pistol. That pistol looks like it is all steel and I suspect it is. And if you had not said it was a Mustang, I would have thought it was an Officers Model. If you are going to carry something that size and weight, why carry a .380 Mustang when you could just as easy carry an Officers Model in .45 ACP? Well unless you just want a .380 that is or unless I am wrong about the relative sizes of the Mustang and the OM.

But I confess that I have an OM in the safe and a Kahr P .380 in my pocket, but the Kahr appears to be smaller and lighter than the Mustang. But I'll bet you can get a lot better grip on your Mustang than I can on the Kahr. It is really too small if you ask me, especially when shooting +P ammo. It is hard to keep a good grip on it then.

Bob, I carry a 1911 Commander a lot in a Crossbreed IWB. I like the little Mustang because it operates just like the big gun (C&L) I like to carry a BUG sometimes and IMO the Mustang makes a perfect companion gun to it's big brother

Bob,

I'm not surprised by your finding with that small .380 and that hot ammo. Good to learn these things at the range.

Often, the problem with these pipsqueak rigs, is that it's more difficult to obtain suitable expansion, due to their short barrels and subsequent lower velocity of the standard pressure loads--at times resulting in over penetration. I'd guess that this is why some guys just use hardball. I like the Federal Hydra Shok, and the Remington Golden Sabre in the .380 Auto. I've not had the chance to try the Federal HST yet, though in some tests folks have claimed "good expansion", but a lack of suitable penetration. In other cartridges, I've found the HST's I've used to be tops. Also like Gold Dots, but I avoid the factory loadings in smaller rigs due to the harder primers (my opinion only, but each should decide for themselves). Smaller springs, low hammer mass, etc., in pipsqueak rigs make me leary of harder primer cups. While I've not yet had a failure to fire in the smaller rigs, I note in observations that the primers are barely dented...

As mentioned, I avoid hot rounds in these small auto rigs when utilized for carry--and there are a couple of reasons why. Even in full size auto rigs, I generally (but not always), avoid +P rounds, unless occasionally using them in a rig such as the HK USP (which was designed around the .40 S & W cartridge), and a few other rigs that can stand the gaff. If a guy wants more--at times it can be best to use a greater cartridge.

Revolvers can be a different story, provided one is sensible about the loads--as there are none of the slide timing issues/gremlins, etc.

Though perhaps not the best thread for this--and I'm not recommending it--just a mention--an interesting pill that I use at times in the .38 Special and .357 Magnum snub rigs is the .355 88 grain Speer Gold Dot hollow point. I size the brass twice, chamfer, and use no expander. In .357 rigs, I load it with 10 grains WSF, with a good roll crimp. It is a respectable round for a snub revolver kept by the bedside. Less penetration to be sure--about 8-9 inches, and expands to about .58 inches rounded off. Improvements today render this type of thing nearly obsolete (no doubt you remember the old Smith and Wesson 90 grain soft nose factory offering--a little nub of a pill sticking out of the case mouth--if I recall, the "claim" was 1650 fps from a 4 inch barrel)...

Pics of two of these 88 grain Gold Dot rounds fired yesterday:









This has been a good thread.

Oh, and forgot to mention.

Awhile back, RJM posted a surprising reference on the effectiveness of the FMJ round in the .380 auto. I've not seen that reference--I believe it was concerning multiple shootings of victims by a robber whilst plying his trade.

Perhaps he will see this thread and chime in by mentioning this again--it sounded interesting...

I saw that I misidentified the weight of that Speer bullet--and it is too late to edit that post--so apologize for any possible confusion.

The older/earlier jacketed hollow point pill by Speer was 88 grains--while the "newer" Gold Dot pill is actually 90 grains, and I failed to correct that specific weight change on the heading of the loads in that page of my loading notebook.

At the time I began trying out these 88 gr Speers, the Gold Dots were not yet available. The newer offering is a massive improvement over the older, ordinary jacketed pills, which fragmented completely when driven at these velocities...

Quote Hi Vel

Pics of two of these 88 grain Gold Dot rounds fired yesterday:









That is an unusual loading. At least, it is for me. I confess that I don't get the reason for it. The Camp Fire does not seem to have a reloading forum that I can find, but there is one on bullet casting where a lot of reloading talk is done. Maybe we can take it up there? Or not. No biggie either way. But thanks for the pohoto's and write up on a load I had not previously seen.

I've often thought the same thing.. There's no forum for reloading handguns.

And this thread, especially, has me curious. I reload for probably 30+ cartridges, but NOT the .380.. Just figured is was too dang small to mess with and, since I don't shoot it a lot, it wasn't worth it getting the dies, brass etc..

Smallest handgun round I reload for is the 9mm..

Redneck

I do load for the .380 because I find the small pistols I have for that cartridge to be difficult to maintain an acceptable level of rapid or multiple shot accuracy. So I have to shoot them a lot just to keep up my skill level with them. If you want load/mold info on it, let's go to bullet casting and I'll lay it out for you complete with photos. Lee has a six cavity mold for it that makes throwing a LOT of bullets quick and easy. Use Lee liquid lube and shoot them as cast. It doesn't get any easier than that.

All ears; have at it.

Gotta be cheaper than what my wife and daughter and I do to a case of .380 ball...

Might just keep them away from the .25-20 pump, too.

I carry a TCP at times and my wife has an LCP. Had a Keltec in .32 when the first came out. Your comparison is spot on. I'd choose the Taurus over the Ruger any day. Only negative is the pointy muzzle end of the slide.

Carry options include a Tagua OWB, self-made super-tuck style or Desantis Nemesis in the pocket when hiking without a jacket.

Truly a case of YMMV. I loathed the Taurus TCP, and would throw it away to take the KT and likely pay someone to take it to get the LCP.

Hey, as long as it works and y'all carry it/them, it's good to go.

I'll post it all on the Bullet casting forum.

Aluk, i trust that you won't feel that discussing a final point here isn't a "derail" to your thread topic--there is some limited relevance here.

i've found that the various pipsqueak .380 pistols work fairly well with standard pressure ammo--but can indeed produce some over penetration. to mitigate the over penetration, the self defense ammunition has been offered in hotter loadings. though not a frequent occurance, in some cases i've found that this can interfere with proper slide function. in addition, they are also more difficult to control, and can be tough on these pipsqueak rigs.

as a potential alternative, a small revolver can be handy and more forgiving, as there are no slide functioning issues to contend with when utilizing the hotter loads.

(the reason for the 9mm pill in the load):

in the mid 1980's, i bought a new S&W model 60.

the first function of that rig was dispatching wounded coyotes. i used a 158 grain hardcast pill for that task--shooting those yippers in the head.

the second function was for home protection. in those days, unless it was a special case, folks did not have concealed carry permits in our state--so a potential self defense situation with a smaller rig like this was more likely to occur in the home, and possibly even more likely to occur in the bedroom. thus it's second role was that of a "night stand revolver."

in my opinion and experience, the loads i tried back then in the mid to late 1980's gave too little upset, and too much penetration, due to the lower velocity of the very short barrel. subsequently, i tried handloading the 110 grain Sierra Blitz, but in testing that pill, it did not expand very well either, even when i tried a few at +P loadings. therefore, i went to trying the lightweight 9mm pills such as the 88 grain Speer, and the 90 grain Sierra HP. they worked very well in that there was no over penetration, but expansion was to the point of significant fragmentation. a few years later the 90 grain Gold Dot pill offered both desired attributes--good expansion, and no over penetration.

the over penetration was a significant concern to me, as our son's bedroom was right across the wall, and the only real separation between the two rooms was two pieces of 5/8 thick sheetrock, and a 3 1/2 inch dead air space. in a self defense situation in the middle of the night, this type of arrangement makes potential over penetration of significant, grave concern to any responsible gun owner.

thus the purpose for that "unusual load" back then, which isn't really altogether new--others were doing something similar too (before the mid 1980's, Smith and Wesson even offered their .357 magnum 90 grain soft point factory load--if i recall, they were known to be aggressive in penetration).

the .357 load i posted earlier is just an "amped up version" of the .38 special loading that the model 60 was loaded with on the nightstand.

as mentioned earlier, modern factory offerings make this sort of thing nearly obsolete today...

for some folks, the smaller, lightweight snub .38 revolver can be a possible alternative to the tiny .380 auto pistols of today--although the size/weight of those popular, tiny .380's is near impossible to better for everyday convenient carry...