I just sold a handgun in the classifieds, never sold a pistol on the campfire before. Can I ship regular ground from a private individual to the buyers FFL or do I have to ship overnight?

Thanks

Doc

How much of a "screw the arrogant corporation" attitude do you have?

There is no law that says you have to ship a handgun overnight or 2nd day, that is FedEx and UPS policy. You cannot ship USPS, that is the law.

FedEx and UPS employees are thieves. Instead of fixing the thievery, they instituted policies that handguns must be shipped overnight or 2nd day since that involves fewer people handling the package and hence less chance for theft. "Our employees are thieves and we want you to pay for that."

I've shipped every handgun I've ever sold via FedEx ground, going on close to a dozen or more now. I create and pay for a shipping label online and attach it to a plain brown box inside of which the handgun is securely wrapped and padded. Walk into the FedEx hub, place the plain brown prepaid box on the counter and say, "this is all set to go" and walk out. They have never complained or asked me what's in the box. It becomes one of several millions of similarly sized boxes they ship successfully every day.

Some will question what happens in case of a lost or damaged package when trying to collect the insurance and say that FedEx or UPS will categorically deny the claim because you haven't followed their policy. I do not know the answer to that, they've never lost one on me and I've never heard of someone with an actual experience like that - where they shipped a handgun via ground, FedEx lost it and asked what is it, we'll pay for it, the shipper said "a handgun" and FedEx/UPS said "oh, well then GFY". I'm willing to risk it, some others aren't.

So, back to my first sentence.


As an adjunct to this, I usually sell firearms price plus actual shipping, then offer several means of shipping to the buyer. Most of them choose the $17-$18 FedEx ground with insurance over the $75 or so for overnight or 2nd day. But I leave it up to them, if they are uncomfortable with ground then I will happily take their money to ship the more expensive ways.

thanks Jim.....

I always ship overnight insured via UPS or FedEx. I don’t have a FFL and don’t try to sneak them through labeled as something else. I can only imagine the headaches if it gets lost or damaged if I did.

My local FFL ships for me as a courtesy. Typically $25-30. Much easier than dealing with the morons at UPS or fedex who don't know the laws or their own rules

Think about what you just said. If it gets "lost", how in God's name do they know it wasn't exactly what you said it was?????

Re: the second part, it's not really very difficult to pack a box so it's almost impossible to damage a handgun inside.

Anything can be damaged in shipping. I could package a rock in 3 feet of packing material and a carrier would find a way to damage it. I deal with shipping logistics every day. Also, have you ever made a claim for damaged or lost items with the likes of Fed Ex, USPS, UPS, etc.?How would I receive the value I insured the item for? Please elaborate...

I've never heard of anyone having any luck getting insurance paid by FedEx/UPS when it involves a 'lost' or stolen firearm.

I ship mine the same way Jim does and have yet to have any issues.

To each their own and it's not my place to tell people how to ship things. Just relaying my experiences. I've shipped and received a lot of firearms and have had problems.

There is also this little, ATF gem whether you agree with, and adhere to, or not:

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm or ammunition, prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm and requires obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a)(5), 922(e) and (f); 27 CFR 478.30 and 478.31]

Source: ATF.gov

You're not a very imaginative packer then.

1. Go to the actual laws cited there and read 478.30(a) carefully.
2. Never trust an ATF FAQ.

Ok, you box it, print out a label, bring to FEDEX. You say it's a firearm. You think they have a firearm log someplace? Where do they enter that it's a firearm?

Double dog dare you to show me.

Interesting. You guys make compelling arguments. I'm going to rethink the way I ship handguns. Thanks for the info!

I just have my FFL ship them. No BS, no worries.

I had a custom, engraved, S&W 624 stolen out of UPS on its way back to me from being engraved by S&W. On the advice of Roy Jenks, I specifically directed S&W to insure it for a specified amount and to charge me for the insurance. They ignored my directions and shipped it back to me uninsured, as their policy at that time was to replace lost/stolen/damaged firearms with a comparable current production item of their choosing. The 624 had been out of production when this happened, so after months of unpleasantness, I received an engraved 629 Hunter. I never liked that handgun and have never shot it, opting instead to have another 624 customized, but didn't contract with S&W to do the engraving this time. The point being that firearms do get stolen and if they are miss represented in any way, the common carrier will find justification not to pay you for your loss.

Okay, let me make sure I understand the story here.

S&W shipped a 624 back to you uninsured.
That revolver was stolen. Specifically how did they know it was stolen and not merely lost in transit? I'd certainly allow that stolen is the likely possibility but I'm curious how they determined it was deliberate theft and not accidental loss. That's not really germane to the discussion, I'm just curious.
After some period of time, S&W sent you a 629 Hunter as a replacement which arrived safely but which you did not like.

From this you conclude that if a firearm is misrepresented in any way, the common carrier will find justification not to pay you.

How could UPS pay you for an uninsured item? FWIW, the shipper has to file the claim.
Was the revolver sent by S&W via ground shipment or was it sent next day or 2nd day air? This is the entire subject of my first post, btw.
Since S&W was the shipper, did S&W misrepresent the item when they shipped it and if so, what was it represented as?
Do you know for a fact that S&W did or did not receive payment from UPS for their uninsured goods?

Based on this anecdote, I will stand by my original statement that "I've never heard of someone with an actual experience like that - where they shipped a handgun via ground, FedEx lost it and asked what is it, we'll pay for it, the shipper said "a handgun" and FedEx/UPS said "oh, well then GFY".

I am sure an occasional box is stolen by employees of FedEx and UPS but the truth here is, I don't know what they will do in the specific case of shipping a fully insured handgun via ground shipment if it is lost or stolen and apparently you don't have first hand experience of this either. If there are more facts here you haven't revealed then I would love to hear them and may or may not revise my opinion based on them.


My one anecdote with damaged goods was with a Ruger Model 77 that arrived with a cracked stock. As much as I like Rugers their "shipping box" is a joke which provides little protection beyond the basic cardboard box. Be that as it may, the gunbroker seller who had advertised it as "shipped insured" carefully did not say "shipped fully insured", so it only carried the normal $100 worth of insurance that comes with every UPS shipment.

I contacted UPS about this, they took down some information that it was a firearm with a cracked stock and sent a claim form to the shipper, who is the one who has to file the claim, not the recipient. The seller made good on the broken stock by sending me a replacement, I don't know if he ever got his $100 from UPS or not.

And continuing the conversational anecdotes, the last rifle I purchased from gunbroker was another Model 77 which arrived safely despite the equivalent of a glaring sign on the box to "steal this".

The FFL dealer I went through is Idaho Gun and Outdoors, which is the premises name. The FFL holder name is some innocuous name like "Smith LLC" or some such with no reference to firearms but with the same shipping address. I asked the gunbroker seller to please please pretty please put Smith LLC on the package and not "Idaho Gun and Outdoors". So of course they addressed the package to Idaho Gun and Outdoors. It still arrived safe and sound -after shipment via UPS Ground - and the counter guy there said they get long guns and handguns shipped to that address all the time and never had a problem, although I can't personally verify the "never" part.

1. UPS told me that the S&W 624 was stolen, it was scanned in at a distribution center somewhere in the Chicago metro area and was never scanned again. It either vanished into thin air or it was stolen.

2. I sent the 624 to S&W to be engraved. It was subsequently engraved, I paid for the engraving, and S&W shipped it back to me via UPS Ground, this was prior to UPS requiring handguns to be shipped next or 2nd day. I specifically directed S&W to insure it for a specific amount, say $1,200, and noted that I would pay for the additional insurance coverage when they returned it. For whatever reason, S&W chose not to follow my directions and shipped it without insurance. After a period on unpleasantness, they finally agreed to compensate me for the lost/stolen 624 with a new 629 Hunter and after another round of unpleasantness, agree to duplicate the engraving that I had paid for on the lost/stolen 624. All in all a miserable experience that has led me to forego the purchase of any new S&W firearms since then.

3. My experience with common carriers has been that if an item that has been misrepresented is lost or damaged during shipping, the shipper will have a hard time getting the common carrier to reimburse him/her for the loss or damage even if the shipper paid for an appropriate amount of insurance. For example, I bought an Interarms Mark X mannlicher style stock from a dealer in NJ. The seller shipped it and described it as a "wooden handle". It was broken while in transit, the box was crushed, and I refused to accept it when I happened to catch the UPS driver when he was making the delivery. The shipper told me that UPS wouldn't settle his claim for $175 because the description of the item misrepresented what was actually sent. Perhaps it was just a matter of semantics, but the seller told me that he never got reimbursed and I had to file a claim with my CC to get reimbursed by the seller. IMO, unless a person is purposefully trying to hide something, full and accurate disclosure is always the best policy.

4. The theft of the S&W 624 and reimbursement for a misrepresented item that is lost or damaged are two different issues, both of which I have experienced.

EDIT: When I ship a firearm, I ship it to the EXACT name and address that is on the receiving dealer's FFL.

Where the fugg does FEDEX et al, enter shiet like 'Box contains wooden handle', 'Box contains 100 rubber dicks'

You are spotting off shiet that you have NO idea about.

I'm not reading another one of these threads.

It will make your head hurt.

You didn't realize they have a rubber dick log?

Has to be reviewed by the head dyke in charge nightly.

I do exactly what Jim in Idaho does and have never had a problem.