I believe I was reading post here in the Handgun forum about Bob Stash from Chicago PD and Tim Gramins police office involved in shoots seem to have come to different philosophy's after their shoot out.
Bob Stash has philosophy of using the biggest bullet you can shoot accurate with him being fan of 45acp. and likes the single stack Sig P220
Whereas Tim Gramins started off with Glock 21 in 45acp but after his shoot out and almost run out of bullets, he switch to 9mm due to capacity with extra magazines.
Interesting in regards to their different philosophies drawn from their experience.
Was curious where members here stand in their opinion? Carry the biggest round (45acp) you can shoot accurately with some reduction in capacity or are you in the 9mm high capacity camp?
This is probably a load and controversial topic but hoping to keep it somewhat civil and give your opinion as why you choose what you did. Thanks for humoring this question!
I read where nationally LEO connect with the intended target with 20 to 30 percent of the rounds they fire after laying down a line of fire. The higher round count of a 9MM makes sense then. Now whether that helps the publics safety is another question. Sometime back didnt some San Francisco LEO's fire 66 rounds at a perp and he turned himself in the next day wirhout any wounds? Maybe some of those 30 round magazines need to be carried. I think I saw Michelek have some 27 or 30 rounders for his M&P CORE 9MM on YouTube.
I don’t believe that, within reason, it matters what you use as long as you can shoot it fast and accurately and you have some knowledge of how to hurt a person...and you have the resolve to do so. Caliber is probably the least important factor in the equation.
I split the difference and carry a Para-Ordinance P45-14. Or, a S&W M&P in 40S&W.
Actually, I basically agree with the previous poster who put accurate and determined at the head of the list. I've talked to a few who have been in gunfights and that seemed to be the determining factors. A larger bullet and more of them may be helpful but they are superfluous if one does not hit the target.
I carry a single stack 45ACP. The only time I toss a 2nd mag in my pocket is if I’m headed to a shopping mall. The only time I go to a shopping mall is to return clothes my wife bought online from Nordstrom.
I’m subscribe to bigger is better and accuracy matters in a gunfight; not just making bang-bang noise...😎
further reading regards Hassan and the 5.7, all that were not hit center mass were too incapacitated to mount any type of resistance towards him. 3 Soldiers tried to attack him, two were killed COM, one was incapacitated unable to complete the attack. Female cop had her wrist shattered and femur shattered. The price is ridiculous at $1300 for a plastic pistol.
I don't consider myself to be that old, but there was once a country called Rhodesia that had a problem with blacks wanting the whites to move out. It involved a lot of insurgency agains the white government. An incident occurred which I believe the late Dave Arnold wrote about, involving a Rhodesian officer who was wounded in an armored personnel carrier and forced to defend himself with a Browning Hi-Power. In the end he survived. His kill count was 13, all head shots. In the interest of accurate reporting, the shots involved black "terrorist insurgents" sticking their heads around the opening of the carrier to try and shoot the officer, so the distances weren't that great.
Still, an impressive number. One hopes the officer didn't expend his whole ammunition supply in the adventure...
I like my .45acp. But those times when I'm carrying my 9mm, I kinda like that too.
I currently carry a .45 along with the rest of my coworkers, but am open to change. I’d like higher capacity, but if I can’t hit with the first 11 rounds, will having 5-9 more matter? Three of the more interesting shoots that I have some personal knowledge of leaves me uncertain if caliber would have mattered. One partner shot a charging moose three times while it went over the top of him, two in the sinuses one in the chest. He swears by the 45.
Another buddy won the medal of valor for an off duty fight he got into with his 9mm. I think he shot the whole mag at the bad guy but only managed to disable the dudes gun while shooting through the windshield. He still carries 9mm
A coworker killed a guy who ambushed him and a deputy by shooting bad guy in the head at point blank range with his 45. i don’t think caliber mattered there and he still shoots a 45.
I love gun and ballistics talk but the data has so many variables it’s hard to draw a conclusion that caliber matters, in which case I’d like to have capacity. However, I sure like the idea of using larger rounds, but I can’t point to a study that says it matters.
I’ve read the Marshall and Sanow stuff and this other fun study:
Ammo in 9mm is the best we’ve ever experienced. The best 45 +P loads are slightly more effective than the best 9mm loads in my experience. The wound channel being larger with the 45 and penetration being a wash. The best 9mm loads today are better than the worst 45 loads.
In today’s world I’m starting to believe the higher magazine capacity of the 9mm with the best loads is an advantage that is important in ones consideration of which to carry. There is never a down side to more ammo.
You could split the difference with the .40 S&W, and carry a Model 22, which carries 16 rounds of a load that's at least as effective as .45 ACP, and (in terms of capacity) comes short of it's 9mm equivalent (the Model 17) by only two rounds.
Personally, I carry the Model 17, even though I have a Model 21 and a Model 22. My reasons are 1) that extra two or three rounds in a chambering that's highly effective, but mostly because 2) the recoil is quite easy to manage, shot to shot, without the need to put thousands of rounds down range in weekly live fire practice.
Some recent studies have found that when multiple rounds land solidly on the torso and/or head, the stopping power difference between .380 ACP through all service rounds up through 45 ACP is statistically insignificant. Food for thought. In which case, if true, assuming you expect to land more than one shot to the torso and/or head, it might make the best sense to carry a full sized, double stack, 9mm with some extended length backup mags vs any handgun chambered in a round that doesn't permit as high an onboard capacity.
I split the difference and carry a Para-Ordinance P45-14. Or, a S&W M&P in 40S&W.
Actually, I basically agree with the previous poster who put accurate and determined at the head of the list. I've talked to a few who have been in gunfights and that seemed to be the determining factors. A larger bullet and more of them may be helpful but they are superfluous if one does not hit the target.
My nephew, a cop with the Phoenix PD, routinely grabs his AR whenever he's approaching a potentially armed encounter. He took a shooter out with one round from his AR just a few months ago. He was the first to arrive on a call about a guy wandering a neighborhood on foot shooting at random houses. Upon the command to drop the weapon, the guy turned his weapon on him, and he dropped him instantly with one shot, DRT.
His policy seemed to work out well for him in that case. No handgun round can hold a candle to 5.56 in stopping power.
Wheres my weapon. Hand me my weapon. Hold my weapon. Look at my weapon. I bought a weapon. I need to clean my weapon. What kind of weapon is that? I carry a weapon. I will shoot my weapon. I deployed my weapon. I holstered my weapon. I secured my weapon. I shot my weapon. My weapon comforts me.
Arming law enforcement with a firearm that carries more and more ammo is certainly not the answer. Regardless of the caliber. Only reinforces the spray and pray mindset that is already out there. There are civilians out there that are also in danger of the whip it out and mow them down attitude.
Wheres my weapon. Hand me my weapon. Hold my weapon. Look at my weapon. I bought a weapon. I need to clean my weapon. What kind of weapon is that? I carry a weapon.
Wheres my weapon. Hand me my weapon. Hold my weapon. Look at my weapon. I bought a weapon. I need to clean my weapon. What kind of weapon is that? I carry a weapon.
This reminds me of a 45-70 vs 257 Bee comparison for hunting. Everything has its place. If I had to choose an all around cartridge for LEO, I would go 357 sig, then 9mm, 45 and then 40. IMO.
Here is the address for 50 round drum magazines for a Glock handgun. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/780340130 A couple,of those hung on the belt plus one in the WEAPON so it can be DEPLOYED with a line of fire that would connect with10 to 15 round would be nice. Where the other 40 to 35 rounds goes would be the fault of the person or property in the way.
Here is the address for 50 round drum magazines for a Glock handgun. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/780340130 A couple,of those hung on the belt plus one in the WEAPON so it can be DEPLOYED would be nice.
With there being no advantage to the 40 S&W and the 45 Auto I wasted my time at the range this morning. I shot the 45 Auto and a few 10MM and i felt good about it. Now I am depressed and am going to try to cure that depression by stuffing myself with food so I will be miserable tonight after I go to bed. I must be punished someway. Especially for shooting the 10MM. I am now going to crawl in a hole and pull it in on myself only to peak out just enough to breath. If i deserve that much.
I believe I was reading post here in the Handgun forum about Bob Stash from Chicago PD and Tim Gramins police office involved in shoots seem to have come to different philosophy's after their shoot out.
Bob Stash has philosophy of using the biggest bullet you can shoot accurate with him being fan of 45acp. and likes the single stack Sig P220
Whereas Tim Gramins started off with Glock 21 in 45acp but after his shoot out and almost run out of bullets, he switch to 9mm due to capacity with extra magazines.
Interesting in regards to their different philosophies drawn from their experience.
Was curious where members here stand in their opinion? Carry the biggest round (45acp) you can shoot accurately with some reduction in capacity or are you in the 9mm high capacity camp?
This is probably a load and controversial topic but hoping to keep it somewhat civil and give your opinion as why you choose what you did. Thanks for humoring this question!
Lt. Stasch's shootings were part of undercover or tactical team operations actively targeting hardened criminals, with shooting at very close range. He carries an single-stack SIG P220 on duty but a double-stack SIG P228 off duty, so it looks like he takes both approaches. Those choices make sense for him, but there’s a big difference between what he needs and what the standard civilian concealed carrier needs.
You also have to bear in mind that he joined the Chicago PD in 1981 and had his first shooting in 1983. Ammo has gotten WAY better since then. It’s interesting that in his interview with Mas Ayoob, they spend as much time talking about ammo as they do about guns.
Yeah. Now we are headed somewhere. What can we get that will equal the 9MM? I have two. Little did I realize what I actually have. My 10MM's and 45 Autos now hold nothing for me. I now have on order a couple 50 round mags for my Glock. Now my life is fulfilled and I can now return to happiness personified as my now departed Mother used to say. 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃
I'm watching a video now of a cop that was shot several times with a 45 fmj and shot the assailant with his 40 cal 180gr Ranger sxt several times. Things I've taken away are; the human body is unimpressed with pistol rounds. A reload will cost you more than 2 seconds in a 6 second gun fight.
Do they make one of those 50 round mags for my Shield?
I'm watching a video now of a cop that was shot several times with a 45 fmj and shot the assailant with his 40 cal 180gr Ranger sxt several times. Things I've taken away are; the human body is unimpressed with pistol rounds. A reload will cost you more than 2 seconds in a 6 second gun fight.
Do they make one of those 50 round mags for my Shield?
Did the Cop have a vest on? Where was he hit. Where was the perp hit by the Cop? Do you know these type of things? Were the 45 Auro FMJ rounds a RN style or a FN style? So now where do we go? Should we start carrying an Encore single shot in 223 or maybe 243 to have a capable handgun? Maybe learn to speed shoot with it using a wrist ammo holder and practice "speed" shooting with it? Would that work? Maybe someone could come up with a semi auto like the Kel Tech 22 Win Mag that will hold 30 to 50 rounds that we could use when we DEPLOYED our WEAPON and also offer 100 roind drum magazines for it as a more comforting option. 30 to 50 rounds of 22 Mag released in the general area of the bad guy after DEPLOYING our WEAPON would be confidence inspiring.
The 40 S&W was conceived for the specific purpose of providing substantial thump and good magazine capacity.
Apparently in the interim, a lot of people have determined it kicks too hard or is too big/heavy in available platforms. As I understand it, many are now thrilled with the 9mm, So there's something for everyone except folks who can't make up their minds or stick to a platform long enough to attain a degree of skill with it.
That's a head problem, not an external ballistics problem.
He was shot just below his bottom lip, splitting his jaw and blowing 3 teeth out his neck. He thought the guy caught him with a haymaker. Yes he had a vest on. Caught one in his plate, one in the edge of soft armor. Took another in his leg and one in his shoulder. RN I think.
Perp took several rounds but kept coming and shooting. One round was fatal but fight did not stop till officer grabbed him and stuck his gun to his head. His light was used as a standoff to fire the round.
People don't always just lay down and die, even when hit in the A zone.
He was shot just below his bottom lip, splitting his jaw and blowing 3 teeth out his neck. He thought the guy caught him with a haymaker. Yes he had a vest on. Caught one in his plate, one in the edge of soft armor. Took another in his leg and one in his shoulder. RN I think.
Perp took several rounds but kept coming and shooting. One round was fatal but fight did not stop till officer grabbed him and stuck his gun to his head. His light was used as a standoff to fire the round.
People don't always just lay down and die, even when hit in the A zone.
So now we know the 9MM will do better. Knowledge is a wonderful thing. We are now relearning what we were fed in the late '70's and during the mid 80's when we were being told how the 9MM was going to replace the 45 Auto and everything else as a WEAPON that when DEPLOYED will cause a great marvelment.
Did the Cop have a vest on? Where was he hit. Where was the perp hit by the Cop? Do you know these type of things? Were the 45 Auro FMJ rounds a RN style or a FN style? So now where do we go? Should we start carrying an Encore single shot in 223 or maybe 243 to have a capable handgun? Maybe learn to speed shoot with it using a wrist ammo holder and practice "speed" shooting with it? Would that work? Maybe someone could come up with a semi auto like the Kel Tech 22 Win Mag that will hold 30 to 50 rounds that we could use when we DEPLOYED our WEAPON and also offer 100 roind drum magazines for it as a more comforting option. 30 to 50 rounds of 22 Mag released in the general area of the bad guy after DEPLOYING our WEAPON would be confidence inspiring.
Im going to be heading out in a little while. I guess now I will be carrying my 9MM loaded with Underwood +P 147 grain ammo. Or is that not a good choice? Its hard to sit down with my 12 Gauge riot gun stuck inside my pants.
Greg Ellifritz compiled data from 1700 shooting incidents and subjected them to statistical analysis. Some results he came up with were 1) the Failure To Stop Rate (the rate at which a cartridge - without considering number of rounds landed - failed to ultimately stop the attacker before the attacker accomplished his attack), and that rate was very high with anything below .380 ACP, but the rate dropped dramatically once we reach .380 ACP/.38 Special, and the range from .380 ACP/.38 Special up through .45 ACP (including .357 and .44 Magnum) was very close, i.e., the worst being 17% (.38 Special, with .380 ACP only one percentage point better), and the best being 13% (shared equally by 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Magnum, and .44 Magnum). Everything else among the .380 ACP/.38 Special through .45 ACP range fell somewhere in between. That's a pretty narrow range from .38 Special/.380 ACP up through .44 Magnum and .45 ACP, suggesting little meaningful difference vs what's commonly believed, i.e., it's commonly believed that the .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and the .44s are dramatically better fight stoppers than, for example, the .380 ACP.
PS "Failure To Stop" jumps up dramatically with .32 ACP (40% Failure To Stop Rate) and below (to include .25 ACP and .22 Rimfire), but .380 ACP/.38 Special (16% and 17% Failure To Stop Rates, respectively) marks the dramatic shift into the serious caliber range (in terms of this measure), all of which hover around the same figure (between 13% and 17%), .44 Magnum (a top performer in this category) enjoying only a 3% smaller Failure To Stop rate than .380 ACP.
So, if you carry a ..38 Special, and want to increase your chances by a whopping 4% of stopping an attack before it's carried out, switch to a .357 Magnum, a 9mm, a .40 S&W, a .45 ACP, or a .44 Special or Magnum. If you're carrying a .380 ACP, switching to one of those will only increase your chances by 3%.
I have an LCPII 380 and could carry it and leave the 9MM at home or used it as a BUG. I thought as I got older things would become more simple. How wrong I was.
More is better considering the defense ammo available today...but i am still partial to a Glock 22.
It's an excellent round and handgun. Larger hole and more ft. lbs. energy on target cannot be bad, and mag capacity for the same platform is just a hair behind 9mm. If you can handle the recoil exactly as well as you can 9mm out of the Glock 17, it's a great choice.
For me, I notice the recoil difference, and would require more live-fire range time to narrow the gap (round to round) between the 17 and the 22, so (not being able to afford the thousand rounds a week I'd need), I stick with the 17.
He was shot just below his bottom lip, splitting his jaw and blowing 3 teeth out his neck. He thought the guy caught him with a haymaker. Yes he had a vest on. Caught one in his plate, one in the edge of soft armor. Took another in his leg and one in his shoulder. RN I think.
Perp took several rounds but kept coming and shooting. One round was fatal but fight did not stop till officer grabbed him and stuck his gun to his head. His light was used as a standoff to fire the round.
People don't always just lay down and die, even when hit in the A zone.
So now we know the 9MM will do better. Knowledge is a wonderful thing. We are now relearning what we were fed in the late '70's and during the mid 80's when we were being told how the 9MM was going to replace the 45 Auto and everything else as a WEAPON that when DEPLOYED will cause a great marvelment.
No. Now we know you have to want to win more than the other guy. Being shot with anything does not guarantee you will go down right now unless you are hit in the CNS. A buddy of mine took a class last year and I asked him what was the one thing he took away from it? Fight until the other guy is out of the fight.
Yes it was Jared Reston, just a different 2 hour video that I watched.
I just bought me a 33 round mag for my 9 MM Glock. I think it will cause my shirt to stick out due to the length but at least I know I will be ready. I may buy a couple more to carry as spares. That will give me a hundred rounds. That will be better than 21 rounds of 45 Auto which has now morphed into a prehistoric blob of dinosaur poop that has even lost it smell much less its strengtn.
I just bought me a 33 round mag for my 9 MM Glock. I think it will cause my shirt to stick out due to the length but at least I know I will be ready. I may buy a couple more to carry as spares. That will give me a hundred rounds. That will be better than 21 rounds of 45 Auto which has now morphed into a prehistoric blob of dinosaur poop that has even lost it smell much less its strengtn.
No no. The way you do it is you carry your normal 17 round mag in your Glock 17 carried IWB under an untucked short, and stick the 33 rounder, floor plate up, in your opposite-side front pants pocket, pushed to the outer corner. Carries nice there, and your untucked shirt covers it up nicely. It's actually easier to access when going for a spare than if you carried a standard sized mag for a reload. Give it a try.
As for me, I generally don't do this, but during times of heightened caution, I have done so.
The five hard cast wadcutters in the 38 Airweight in my pocket aren't feeling too good right about now. Would a Vaquero 45 on one side balance a PMR-30 on the other? Would 30 22's in the air even be noticed in one of these epic battles? Are we all doomed to statistical uncertainty in the face of certain death?
I feel like i have been crushed under overwhelming evidence that the underwhelming 45 Auto is now a hasbeen. After i have labored under the delusion that the 45 Auto was a powerful cartridge. I am now afraid to think about the 44 Magnum compared to the 38 Special. I have been told that life has it ups and downs but i certainly didnt expect this. I am still reeling from this epiphany. Certainly a sad, very, very, sad day. I have set aside a mourning period that will beging at 12:00PM tonight till i feel i have regained my inner strength to go on. As one who has had his bubble destroyed it wiil be a long time before i will be able to look at 45 Auto cartridge or WEAPON again. I have now put away my 45 ammo and WEAPONS not to be gazed upon for an undertermined lenght of time.😩😩😩😩😩😩😩😩😩😩😩😩🤧🤧🤧🤧🤧🤧🤧🤧🤧😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Is there something about the word weapon you have a problem with? I'm not getting all the emphasis on the word.
I'm not a fan of the word in general context. A weapon is whatever I need one to be at the moment - a rock, a screwdriver, or a firearm. The rest of the time they're just a rock, a screwdriver, or a firearm.
Is there something about the word weapon you have a problem with? I'm not getting all the emphasis on the word.
I'm not a fan of the word in general context. A weapon is whatever I need one to be at the moment - a rock, a screwdriver, or a firearm. The rest of the time they're just a rock, a screwdriver, or a firearm.
The handgun I carry is carried for its capacity as a weapon. Same with the shotgun kept loaded in the bedroom. Has it become politically incorrect to say that, now?
I've been scouring Google for a discussion of any debate about not calling firearms weapons, but cannot find anything. It must not be a big controversy.
While we can call a FIREARM a WEAPON, a WEAPON is ANYTHING that can be used as a WEAPON . A screwdriver, needle nosed pliers, box cutters, large pliers, a ball bat, a club,, a car, a beer bottle, a poker, a slingshot, a bow and arrow, a nail gun, a fork and many other can be called a WEAPON but we dont. I went deer hunting in archery season with my WEAPON. I tightened a screw with my WEAPON. I went on a trip in my WEAPON. I dropped my WEAPON could you bring me another to eat my green beans with.
He probably could be drunk. Wanting to call a firearm a WEAPON could be a sign of it. I am sure Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone called their rifle and knife WEAPONS. I shot my deer with my WEAPON and butchered it with my WEAPON. I must sharpen my WEAPON before using it again and I must clean my WEAPON before loading it again.
While we can call a FIREARM a WEAPON, a WEAPON is ANYTHING that can be used as a WEAPON . A screwdriver, needle nosed pliers, box cutters, large pliers, a ball bat, a club,, a car, a beer bottle, a poker, a slingshot, a bow and arrow, a nail gun, a fork and many other can be called a WEAPON but we dont. I went deer hunting in archery season with my WEAPON. I tightened a screw with my WEAPON. I went on a trip in my WEAPON. I dropped my WEAPON could you bring me another to eat my green beans with.
He probably could be drunk. Wanting to call a firearm a WEAPON could be a sign of it. I am sure Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone called their rifle and knife WEAPONS. I shot my deer with my WEAPON and butchered it with my WEAPON. I must sharpen my WEAPON before using it again and I must clean my WEAPON before loading it again.
He probably could be drunk. Wanting to call a firearm a WEAPON could be a sign of it. I am sure Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone called their rifle and knife WEAPONS. I shot my deer with my WEAPON and butchered it with my WEAPON. I must sharpen my WEAPON before using it again and I must clean my WEAPON before loading it again.
Actually I was asking you doofus...
No, you couldnt be asking about me. I dont drink. I used to but still didnt call a firearm a WEAPON. Maybe a GOOD psychiatrist could help someone who has a propensity for the word WEAPON. I Cant picture saying to my wife, honey I am going to the WEAPON range to fire my WEAPON after I DEPLOY it. Then telling her after I get home, honey I am now going to clean my WEAPON since I DEPLOYED it at the range and fired it making contact with the target.
I've got to retract what I said about 5.56 and my nephew. Just spoke to him. Apparently, he shot the guy (wanted for murder in another state) center mass five times. He went down, then sat up again trying to retrieve his handgun off the ground and get back into the fight, ignoring commands to stay down. It took three more, to the chest and head, of 55 grain Federal HP to put him down for good. The guy was high, though, which must be the explanation.
I believe I was reading post here in the Handgun forum about Bob Stash from Chicago PD and Tim Gramins police office involved in shoots seem to have come to different philosophy's after their shoot out.
Bob Stash has philosophy of using the biggest bullet you can shoot accurate with him being fan of 45acp. and likes the single stack Sig P220
Whereas Tim Gramins started off with Glock 21 in 45acp but after his shoot out and almost run out of bullets, he switch to 9mm due to capacity with extra magazines.
Interesting in regards to their different philosophies drawn from their experience.
Was curious where members here stand in their opinion? Carry the biggest round (45acp) you can shoot accurately with some reduction in capacity or are you in the 9mm high capacity camp?
This is probably a load and controversial topic but hoping to keep it somewhat civil and give your opinion as why you choose what you did. Thanks for humoring this question!
I'm usually carrying a 45 with 8 rounds and one spare magazine. The odds of me finding myself in the middle of a terrorist cell and needing more is probably pretty low Most gunfights a private citizen would find themselves in would probably be over after one or two shots have been fired. Unlike a LEO I'm not duty bound to get in a prolonged gunfight with a criminal to kill or apprehend them once my life is no longer at risk I'm going to try to break contact not press on with an assault..If I find myself even needing to load a second magazine things sure aren't going the way I'd like lol.
That is what I keep trying to tell you. Only the dense doesnt understand.
The informed shares. The informed know they are wise. The wise show they are informed.
Some think that being odiuos is not obnoxious but it is. But the odious berates the obnoxious when both are rowing the same boat.
Do you realize that if you take the "lockdoof" out of your name it spells "gus"?
Hey I have heard of a Gus before. But that does not spell WEAPON. Did you know if you if you take the fu out of your name that spells RusG? If you take the s out of RusG that spell RuG? Did you know RuG rhymes with BuG Did you know Rufus rhymes with goofus.? Did you know Rufus rhymes with doofus?
I've got to retract what I said about 5.56 and my nephew. Just spoke to him. Apparently, he shot the guy (wanted for murder in another state) center mass five times. He went down, then sat up again trying to retrieve his handgun off the ground and get back into the fight, ignoring commands to stay down. It took three more, to the chest and head, of 55 grain Federal HP to put him down for good. The guy was high, though, which must be the explanation.
I always liked a 94 Winchester for a handy cop carbine and carried one for years.
Over those years I saw roughly half a dozen men who'd gotten square in the way of a 150 grain soft point and none of them went 10 feet or required a second dose. And that mimics the pickup load of deer, pack dogs and pigs I have personal knowledge or reliable accounts of.
The 40 S&W was conceived for the specific purpose of providing substantial thump and good magazine capacity.
Apparently in the interim, a lot of people have determined it kicks too hard or is too big/heavy in available platforms. As I understand it, many are now thrilled with the 9mm, So there's something for everyone except folks who can't make up their minds or stick to a platform long enough to attain a degree of skill with it.
That's a head problem, not an external ballistics problem.
In retrospect, I probably should have just posted this-
Are you done crying about the use of the word "weapon?" Or do we get two more pages of estrogen?
Well, I will take that humbly. I have tapered off my estrogen is getting low. I may be refueled later on this evening. I need to clean my WEAPON. I have a couple WEAPONS that need to be cleaned. I may fire my WEAPONS next week at the range where WEAPONS can be fired. I will also have my Benchmade WEAPON with me. It has a CLIP while my semi auto handguns have MAGAZINES. I may join a buddy at a local indoor range where I can shoot my WEAPON too. I am going as a guest of his and wont have to pay to shoot my WEAPONS/WEAPONS. Wish me luck with my WEAPON/WEAPONS. Thank you sir.
Oh yes, if a person owns one WEAPON that is in the singular but if one owns more than one WEAPON is that WEAPONRY or WEAPONS. My estrogen tank is getting close to empty. Help me on this.
Speaking of esteogen
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How We Control Estrogen Levels in Men
Your BodyLogicMD affiliated physician may suggest a number of male menopause treatment options that will work in conjunction to control your testosterone to estrogen conversion. Balancing all of your hormone levels and particularly natural bioidentical testosterone replacement therapy are vital to treating high estrogen levels in men. Proper nutrition, pharmaceutical grade supplements and fitness are also vital to keep body fat low to remove aromatase. Specifically, it is suggested that men with high estrogen levels decrease alcohol consumption and increase consumption of vitamin B and flaxseed. In some cases, patients are prescribed Chrysin, a natural herb, or Arimidex, a prescription medicine, to block the estrogen conversion. The good news is that excessive estrogen levels in men are correctible and reversible with the help of an expert BodyLogicMD affiliated physician.
Contact the BodyLogicMD bioidentical hormone doctor nearest you to schedule an appointment and learn more about how bioidentical hormone replacement therapy can balance estrogen levels in men. For information on estrogen in women, click here.
You can't possibly expect me to read any of that vagina monologue.
It's cute that you typed it out though.
With you no I dont. I copy and pasted it. I do know that much. You may need to read it so when you get older and your estrogen levels increase you will realize what is happening. Education is wonderful. Of couse some never let education get in the way.
Greg Ellifritz compiled data from 1700 shooting incidents and subjected them to statistical analysis. Some results he came up with were 1) the Failure To Stop Rate (the rate at which a cartridge - without considering number of rounds landed - failed to ultimately stop the attacker before the attacker accomplished his attack), and that rate was very high with anything below .380 ACP, but the rate dropped dramatically once we reach .380 ACP/.38 Special, and the range from .380 ACP/.38 Special up through .45 ACP (including .357 and .44 Magnum) was very close, i.e., the worst being 17% (.38 Special, with .380 ACP only one percentage point better), and the best being 13% (shared equally by 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Magnum, and .44 Magnum). Everything else among the .380 ACP/.38 Special through .45 ACP range fell somewhere in between. That's a pretty narrow range from .38 Special/.380 ACP up through .44 Magnum and .45 ACP, suggesting little meaningful difference vs what's commonly believed, i.e., it's commonly believed that the .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and the .44s are dramatically better fight stoppers than, for example, the .380 ACP.
PS "Failure To Stop" jumps up dramatically with .32 ACP (40% Failure To Stop Rate) and below (to include .25 ACP and .22 Rimfire), but .380 ACP/.38 Special (16% and 17% Failure To Stop Rates, respectively) marks the dramatic shift into the serious caliber range (in terms of this measure), all of which hover around the same figure (between 13% and 17%), .44 Magnum (a top performer in this category) enjoying only a 3% smaller Failure To Stop rate than .380 ACP.
So, if you carry a ..38 Special, and want to increase your chances by a whopping 4% of stopping an attack before it's carried out, switch to a .357 Magnum, a 9mm, a .40 S&W, a .45 ACP, or a .44 Special or Magnum. If you're carrying a .380 ACP, switching to one of those will only increase your chances by 3%.
At what range? Color me puzzled that a man took 5-6 55 grain 3100 FPS HP’s at 25?? Yards and was still functional. I have killed 6 large animals deer and pigs with a 5.56 and had much better luck with a single hit.
At what range? Color me puzzled that a man took 5-6 55 grain 3100 FPS HP’s at 25?? Yards and was still functional. I have killed 6 large animals deer and pigs with a 5.56 and had much better luck with a single hit.
At what range? Color me puzzled that a man took 5-6 55 grain 3100 FPS HP’s at 25?? Yards and was still functional. I have killed 6 large animals deer and pigs with a 5.56 and had much better luck with a single hit.
Meth and/or PCP are “wonderful” drugs........
There’s also the question of actual shot placement.
OK, he says he shot from sixty feet after a full sprint. All rounds in first string of five landed center mass. Second string of three were center mass, with one head shot.
I like my 1911 45acps, however for myself I found the double stack 45acps too thick for me to get a good. Factor in that my fiance is getting involved in shooting handguns and has difficulty with the recoil of the 45acp but can handle the recoil of 9mm and is much more accurate with, it swings me to switch over to the 9mm for us. Add in the higher ammo capacity of double stack handguns in today's world is added bonus.
The_Real_Hawkeye, very interesting results from 223rem/5.56. Sarge has good points about preferring 30-30 over 223rem/5.56. It's almost as if were are trying to make the close combat round of the 223rem/5.56 into the intermediate rounds of the 7,62x39 or 30-30 by invention of the 6.5 grendel, 6.8spc, and 300 blackout.
I struggle with this, again after using the cartridge on game animals with good bullets, I just cannot see a com hit at 20 yards with a decent soft point not having a greater effect. That said if the gun was zeroed at 100 yards it was probably with an aimpoint and mount shooting 4 inches low at 20 yards, I did shoot a deer at 10 yards with a 6.8 spc and the bullet struck the shoulder 4 inches low, deer got back up and I had to expend two rounds. Perhaps most bullets entered below the heart of the miscreant.
Having a 6.8 I don't see it as tremendously more lethal that the 5.56, but it does leave a bigger exit hole. I am going to try the 120grain sst bullets this year, my experience with this cartridge has been limited to solid copper bullets.
The_Real_Hawkeye, very interesting results from 223rem/5.56. Sarge has good points about preferring 30-30 over 223rem/5.56. It's almost as if were are trying to make the close combat round of the 223rem/5.56 into the intermediate rounds of the 7,62x39 or 30-30 by invention of the 6.5 grendel, 6.8spc, and 300 blackout.
Both my nephew and I have seen, first hand, what .30-30 does to human-sized feral hogs. Puts them down like a lightning bolt.
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