I am wanting to buy my Mom another handgun for self defense.

She has a concealed carry license and Currently carries a S&W 642 38Special loaded with Hornady 135 grain Ammo.
At 10 ft she can stay on a paper plate for 5 shots.
Pretty good for an 80 year old lady

She carries it in a holster in her purse ,I know not the ideal but that is where she is going to carry it..

I am wanting to get her a pistol that carries more rounds in case of multiple threats.

I am thinking about a DAO 380 or 9mm that holds 10 plus rounds with a long double action pull similar to the Revolver she currently carries,with no safety to fumble with.
Preferably something that she could pull the slide back on .Of course reliability is a must.

I would appreciate Information on pistols that will meet those criteria for her,preferably first hand experience.

I was impressed by the S&W 380 EZ I handled at a local store. Slide was very easy to retract and it has a grip safety as well as a generous trigger pull.

..my suggestion is...leave well enough alone....

Better to have five rounds you know that are going to go off rather than an 80 year old who will now have to learn FTF clearance drills...to gain what 2-3 rounds...

By the time her 5-shot is empty there will either be bodies on the ground or people beating feet to get away from her...

Bob

^^^^^^^^^

While self defense guns have went from revolvers to semi'so over the last few decades,
there are good reasons that revolvers are commonly recommended for those who aren't gun enthusiasts.

Talk to a gun shop owner about people who screw up the unloading of a semi.
Revolvers are simple, and 5 rounds of 38 in not exactly unarmed.

My instinctive reaction was also to recommend sticking to a revolver for simplicity and safety. As was said, 99% of the time, when bullets fly, criminals beat a path to the nearest exit.

Buy her another 38

I kinda agree with RJM if she is happy with what she has. But, I really like the Shield .380 EZ. It is a single action with a grip safety and can be had with or without a thumb safety. (We have the one without the thumb safety to keep it simple.) It is really easy to load, really easy to shoot, and allows rapid follow up shots. Most of the people I see who are able to hit a paper plate with 5 shots at 10 feet using a small revolver take forever to do it, which is great if a bad guy just stands there and takes it. For the bad guy(s) who charges, it will be over quick. The EZ is not like shooting a .22, but it is pretty mild. The longer barrel gives really good velocities approaching advertised specs (Federal Hydra Shoks, 974 fps, Critical Defense, 994 fps, Gold Dots, 1059 fps (above advertised spec)!). The only thing I would suggest is to do the leg work and vet it for the end user in case there are any issues. (Some have reported the gun ejecting a live round along with an empty. We have not had that issue.)

One suggestion on the 642...have the trigger return spring replaced with a 12-13# Wolf. I would not mess with the main spring to make sure ignition stays reliable but I have replaced the trigger return spring in all my Smiths with 13s and it makes a big difference.

Also...buy mom some life size photo bad guy targets and instead of "target" shooting on paper plates teach her how to just put a round on target asap from handshaking distance out to 15'.

The money that you will save over buying a new gun will buy a lot of practice ammo...

What I was thinking.

Let her us practice with speed strips as well and carry a few of them in her purse.

Me too, buy two! do an action job on both of them reduce the DA trigger pull as best as possible. I had a Smith 432 32 HR magnum for a while, sold it due to ammo availability, it was low recoil for sure, much less than my old Titaneum 38.

That’s some good advice. People spend a lot of time fixing things that are not broke. Your time and money would be better spent on reloading techniques. Sounds like she has the shooting down pat. Hasbeen

I'll add maybe get some laser grips and sight it in. Knowing how to use the sights is important but at close range in a high stress situation the laser sights are a plus.

After Hurricane Katrina, a relative wanted a small revolver with a laser, so I installed Crimson Trace laser grips on a no-dash S&W 640 and had it shipped to her. She took a CCW course and had to use both index fingers to pull the trigger, and the gun probably is sitting a box somewhere with the action gunked up and non-functioning, having never been handled or cleaned since the CCW class. If it was functional, she would not survive an encounter against an amateur criminal.

I have a friend who wanted to go shooting earlier this year. She had not been shooting since she got her CCW permit three years prior. She did OK, but was slow, with her dad’s vintage Model 19 shooting .38 Specials, but she would not shoot more than 2 cylinders’ worth of target ammo out of her airweight J frame .38 Special. I handed her my Glock 43, and she shot it faster, and more accurately, strong hand only and weak hand only, than she did with her revolvers using two hands. She wanted to run out and buy one. The only reason I did not recommend that was that she had some difficulty working the slide to load it.

People talk about spending the money on ammo rather than a new gun, but most people will never shoot enough ammo out of airweight J frames to have any impact on even a limited budget. They just suck for all but the most committed or lucky.

I’m in the camp of “don’t change anything.”

Your basis for wanting to purchase her another handgun is “ in case she engages multiple threats.” Has she even engaged a SINGLE threat engagement? I,m guessing, “no.”

A semi-auto is a different system than she is currently used to ( revolver). An “ threat engagement” will be a stressful event. You want #simplicity, and familiarity of the weapon by an 80+ year old. You don't want her to hesitate and think, “Is the chamber loaded in my semi-auto” at the moment of truth/ need. ( which we all (one never happens).

Spend the money on ammo for practice. She has 5 shots with her current 38 wheel gun. With 5 well-placed head shots, you get 5 ( multiple encounters) addressed soundly. Sort of the, “ beware of the person with 1 gun, as he/she probably knows how to use it” school of thought.

Maybe buy her an Acme Thunderer whistle to blow LOUDLY before a round is fired, with gun at the ready. Could scare off a threat. Consider well-fitting grips, to increase natural “point ability.”

I vote, “practice more with her current reliable, simple 38 +p revolver”, and improve proficiency/ familiarity/point ability and LOUD whistle blowing ( S-O-S Morse code whistling. “ dot dot dot dash dash dash. dot dot dot”. For help)., and that she never needs to use any of it.

What bothers me about the new autos is the ease that they can be fired.

That is all well and good for accuracy and getting the shot off pronto. What gives me pause is that raw adrenaline panic cannot be practiced and personally speaking only here--(don't have a cat) I doubt that rote muscle memory is enough for some people--including and especially my bride of 40 years. I know her.

Working the slide is an issue at 120#. Does she shoot herself getting the damn thing out? Does she shoot too quick? Will she practice regularly once the geek wears off? Will the mechanical knowledge of a more complex pistol fade with time?

Here am thinking a 38 revolver tuned a bit at the most. Perhaps not an airweight and in a smaller caliber.

fwiw, I wish she stick with a shotgun, but it is hard to get it in her purse.

Exactly my concern in the hands of an 80 year old woman who hasn't been an avid shooting.

If the 642 is too light, and is thus challenging for her to deal with recoil, you might consider getting an all steel revolver, and perhaps switch to a six shooter for one extra round, like the new re-introduction of the Colt Cobra. Also, target wadcutters will cut way down on recoil, and are said to be pretty effective for self-defense due to flat meplat.

Bcraig: I bought my mother a Smith & Wesson Model 60 "Ladysmith" in 38 Special about 30 years ago - it served her well (not that she ever shot it in a self defense situation!) but it gave her much peace of mind as her neighborhood (in the Puget Sound area) has steadily declined - becoming more and more unsafe each year.
Pleas for her to "move" to a safer neighborhood were rejected.
I say keep and eye on her when she travels and an eye on her neighbors/surroundings - in other words the revolver she has would/should in all likelihood, suffice for her, forever.
My beloved mother just passed away this late spring at age 92 and again her revolver gave her much peace of mind in her home during her later life.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

My condolences to you and family for the passing of your Mother

The area she lives in has grown worse and worse throughout the years,she has been broken into twice ,Thankfully she was not home.
I have tried to get her to either move in with the wife and or let me put her a nice doublewide on our property within 25 yards of where we live so she could have her privacy And be safer as well.|
Well she always thanks me but she has a friend(another lady about 70 years old )who is her neighbor and they watch out for each other.
Also says she has moved before and will not move again !

I had an alarm system installed in her house and it works very well being monitored 24/7 and also bars put on her windows(she fought that tooth and nail).

I also talk with her on a constant basis ,explaining to her that the best weapon she has is her mind and to always be aware of her surroundings,Have showed her how fast someone can be upon her,told her an excellent weapon is her car and if thugs line across the road in front of her attempting to do her harm for her and she cannot turn around or go around them to run over the scum.

I have taught her not to stand in front of the her door when hearing something outside as it is easy to shoot through a wooden door,.same about windows.
Not to go to the door or open the door unless she recognizes the voice .

If I get her another handgun I want it to have a double action only pull that would be a lot like the revolver she has now.
she can do the 5 shots in about 10 seconds.

I got on youtube and there were several instances where the last round failed to chamber.

As of now she has no problem with the recoil.

That is definitely an Idea that I would personally do to carry 2 revolvers (one in each pocket) but I doubt I could get her to carry 2 Revolvers in her purse.

I also got her some speed strips and a speed loader and showed her how to use both of them.
She does not carry them and i doubt she even knows where they are !

i just taught her to aim over the top of the revolver with the front of the barrel in her peripheral vision.

The pistol will never be unloaded,yes 5 rounds of 38 is definitely not unarmed.

I was wanting to increase the number of rounds available to her BUT the suto problems are there for sure.
I suppose I could search and see if a double action only 8 shot revolver in a stouter caliber than a 22 rimfire is available.
That would seem to be a great option.

She is going to carry it in her purse so get her a model 10 or 64. They are much easier to shoot well than a J frame and concealment won't be a problem. If she has multiple threats that don't flee after the first one is hit then, sorry to say it, she's going down regardless of her firearm choice.

Like I said she has no problem shooting the 642,she has no problem with concealment.
I do not believe that in all circumstances with multiple threats that do not flee after the first hit on one that the outcome is decided .
I am sure there are cases that have indeed turned out that way but I am sure that there are plenty of circumstances that turned out much better.

You said she can keep her rounds on a plate at 10'. That doesn't qualify as no problem shooting the 642. I'd like to see her keep those shots on a plate at 10 yds.

Well not to be contrary but that is your opinion and not my opinion as I feel like at her age and level of training and interest in any further training she is doing quite well,Remember we are talking about an 80 year old Lady not Jerry Miculek .

Regardless I asked for input regarding a Higher capacity Double Action only Autoloader with a trigger pull to approximate the revolver she has now.
I would appreciate your input on this Question.


.

LCR 22LR (8 shots) would be a good alternative to a 5 shot J frame.
It's a good "orthopedic" handgun.

Just trying to help. I have no point to prove.

Thank you for your help

Although a 22 is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, I would prefer a larger caliber

There's always the Bersa 15+1 380.

https://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=THUN380PMC15&zipcode=59601

Nifty pistol ,but interested in Double Action Only with no safety

If you must have one with those specs, how about a Glock 19 with a New York (10 pound) Trigger? That comes close to simulating a double action only trigger from the safety perspective.

Craig, I would suggest a Kahr, all steel, 9mm. They come in multiple sizes from sub compact up to full size and a couple in between. The all steel allows for better recoil management. They have an excellent DAO trigger and no safety.

I thought about that, too, but he said it had to have at least a 10 round mag capacity.

If you want a semi-auto you need to take her to the shop to see if she can run the slide. What is easy for a guy may be impossible for an 80 year old lady.

Bcraig: Thank you and you are a good man for taking such care with your mother.
I did have my mothers home wired for the Brinks alarm system as well and she enjoyed that "protection" as well as the "security" of her pistol.
My mothers neighborhood became over-run with drug addled welfare scum, Russians of ill character, many un-documented Mexicans and up all night drugging sleep all day no job black folks!
I am surprised her home sold as quickly as it did once she passed on.
Worrisome her situation was to me - constantly.
Best of luck with protecting your mom and thanks again for the kind words.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Yep. Another reason to stick with a revolver. Unless you just want to set it up for her so she can grab a fully loaded gun ready to go, and periodically take her to the range and work the slide for her. That can work, too.

Forgot about that part. Ya, I think the T9 is only an 8+1.

Get her an extra 38, simplicity and familiarity is king, my Mom is 75 and complained awhile back the near +p 125 gr gold dots I had loaded her several years earlier were getting uncomfortable, I ordered some 148 gr wadcutters and loaded them to around 850 fps, I guess that will cut a hole, she likes, and shoots them in complete comfort for now.

I gave my mom a S&W M64 3" round butt .38 loaded with Buffalo Bore 150 gr. hardcast wadcutters at 850 fps. It's a home defense gun, it's simple, she likes it. Beats heck out of a can of pepper spray.

LOL, damn right, that will work, I got Mom a little nickel Colt Cobra 30 years ago, cant remember if it's a 2.5 or 3" barrel, she likes it too.

Perfect. About like what I gave my mom, i.e., a Ruger Speed Six snubby, round butt, with .38 Specials. It gave her great comfort for a couple of decades. When she got too frail in her 80s to pull the trigger, I swapped it for a Walther PPQ. She didn't need to know how it works, or be able to rack the slide. All she needed to know was how to point it and pull the trigger.

My dad hates guns, so when mom passed away, he asked me to take the Walther. He prefers to be helpless. Confusing. I talked him into having a can of mace in the house, which I then went out and bought for him. Better than nothing, but I bet he does't even know where he put it.

Maybe another revolver for her kitchen or living room.

If you can teach her, add a 20 ga. shotgun to her self defense arsenal.

What about that Grendel P-30. 22WMR x 30 rounds onboard. Is that pistol reliable enough?

Well lets see,
I am interested in a double action only, 380 or 9mm that is reliable, with no safety and ten round or better mag capacity
Best I can tell the Grendel is a single action only, in 22wmr ,that is known to be unreliable,with a safety and a 30 round mag

You have managed to miss every criteria I am looking for with the exception of mag capacity !

LOL

In 3 pages of responses over a 1+ week period, has anyone been able to come up with a pistol that meets your rather specific stated criteria?

In terms of technical criteria, you could look for discontinued D model (DAO) Berettas such as the 92D or Cougar (8000D or 8000D Mini-Cougar), some discontinued S&W DAO guns,and Sig DAK models, but they all are going to be some big chunks of gun that may or may not work for racking, and you are going to have to hunt for the guns and spare magazines. ETA: Those all are going to be 9mm, not .380.

I shot a Sig 365 recently and was impressed. It's small but holds 12 rounds of 9mm and the trigger was very manageable. You might check one out.

The obvious answer is easy then. Get a Glock 19 or similar, and get on with it.

Sounds great, but considering its record, I'd wait another year.

That was my suggestion, except I suggested getting it with the New York trigger, which is ten pounds. Still plenty light vs a typical double action revolver, but with enough weight on it to make accidental discharge less likely. Also, proven reliability and ruggedness vs the Sig P365.

Also, on the Sig P365, many are noticing, even on the newest rendition of it, abnormally extreme wear patterns on early round counts, e.g., less than a thousand. The wear on the slide hood and barrel locking block at a thousand rounds looks more like what you'd expect to see for ten times that round count.

i believe I am going to buy a Kel-Tec P11

That should come close to mimicking the revolvers trigger pull,size and weight.

I have had both the single stack and the double stack throughout the years and although I did not put over a couple of hundred rounds through each one of them I had no problems with either one of them.

I will buy it then put a few hundred through it to make sure it functions reliably and if so I will give it to her ,if not I will just keep it and tinker with it till I get it right.

Now just need to find the cheapest place to order one from.

Laughing!......only on the Fire.

No comment.

I don't have any first-hand with KelTec, (but I did mean KelTec above where I referenced the Grendel......showing my age).

One of my USMC brothers is a LEO in WV. He was telling me he carries a Glock 21 for a primary, and a KelTec P11 for a backup. He likes the P11.

Give her the Glock 21.

I understand about the age thing ,I am over 21 myself !

I never had any issues with the ones I had but like so many guns I have owned throughout the years they were either traded off or sold.

Well if she wanted it I would give it to her for sure, Pistols can be replaced but no way I could replace my Mom.

I think that you've been given some good information.

If you decide on the Kel Tec P11, it may well meet your mother's needs.

I've had one for 12 years--it is the hard chrome rig, and it has about 11,000 hours carry time. I don't shoot it a lot, as the square shape in the grip handle hurts my hand when firing 30 or more rounds in a session. It's really meant more for carry than range time. Nevertheless, some guys claim to have run up to 5,000 rounds in their rigs.

Here is a video that reflects my experience with the rig. As in the video, I have the belt clip on the side, and the steel recoil rod installed on my P11 rig.

These days, there are better choices, but you could do a lot worse too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncrh1jUF3uY

She must be very special to deserve a $200 pistol.

y
Yes she is very special,that is why I am trying to figure out what pistol will best suit
Her needs and provide her with a better level of protection than the 642 I bought her.

Mostly kidding. But, if she can rack that slide, she's well armed. Grip the slide, Push the frame. If she's on the dainty side.

Oh I know that but she has small hands and with that big ole G21 in her purse she wouldn’t have room for her other stuff !
Plus even if I put a New York trigger in it still wouldn’t approximate the long pull of her 642.

Get her another revolver..

Or a smaller Glock, or a Kahr.

Well she is not going to carry 2 pistols in her purse so another pistol like her 642 will accomplish nothing.
A smaller Glock is still a Glock trigger system which is not like the double action of a revolver which I feel like is a safer type of trigger than the Glock trigger for a non gun enthusiast.
The Kahr looks decent but I like the higher magazine capacity of the P11

BCraig I had a keltec for a month or two. It’s silly to consider one unless cost is your primary consideration. I have two P365’s now and might buy a 3rd. The only issue I had was the mag release button rusting, but cooks holsters revised their kydex form to fix that. If you just got to buy a semi auto the P365 holds 12 and has a milder trigger pull than the J frame. I myself would buy her another j frame or a Ruger LCR. Keltec is actually an old Ethiopian word that means “sometimes it works”.

That's been my experience with KelTec. I've had three of their products. I lucked out with my Sub2000, in that it actually works with quality ammo. Only flubs were with cheap reloads.

I have read some not so encouraging reviews,comments about the Sig P365 pistols both on you tube and here on the fire.

Why would you buy her another revolver when the one she has functions fine ?

She is NOT going to carry 2 pistols in her purse for increased ammo capability.

My question is about replacing the 5 shot revolver she currently carries in her purse with a DIFFERENT pistol with higher capacity,NOT about an additional pistol to carry in her purse !!

I am NOT looking for a pistol with an easier pull for her,I WANT a Pistol with a revolver like trigger pull for safety reasons as she is not a gun enthusiast and her method of carry,if the pistol was to come out of her holster I do not want anything she might have in her purse to press on a easy to pull trigger .

I have had good luck with the two I had and a friend of mine has good luck with the 3 he has ,1 p9, one p11 and a 380.
I suppose that some get good ones and some don't.

If I buy one I will test it for reliability before giving it to her as 5 shots from her revolver are better than nothing.

So far the Kel Tec p11 comes closer to having the features of what I am looking for .