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Posted By: Bluedreaux MRDS User? - 12/28/18
I know there are some guys here using dots on their pistols. What have yall got?

Does your carry gun have a dot? Which one? Experiences good or bad?

I've got a full size that's ready to carry at work when I feel comfortable enough with it and my carry gun should be back from the cutter next week.

It's been a bit of a learning curve. The dot is much easier to find and track than I expected. But I'm having trigger control problems, not sure if it's the very different pull on the new gun or if it's induced by the dot being "perfect right now". I'm at 900 rounds on the full size gun and I've about worked through everything. I'll probably start carrying it next week.

Shooting at distance isn't just easier, it's MUCH faster too. I'm pretty surprised by how much of a difference it made.
Posted By: gitem_12 Re: MRDS User? - 12/29/18
What range did you zero it Eric? I've been kind of curious about them
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 12/29/18
I'm dead on at 25. There's a little holdover from 0-7, but after that it's close enough to be within what I can hold offhand.
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 12/29/18
I shot a walkback with it last week. Went from 3-15 and kept them all in the dot. I had six round left so I shot 3 at 20 and 3 at 25, pulled 4 of those off the dot. But with the stock iron sights I'd struggle to do something twice that size.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: TWR Re: MRDS User? - 12/29/18
I'm fairly new to the dot as well and don't have any advice to offer but I have 2 so far.

I've been shooting Steel Challenge with a JPoint for almost 2 years now, first on a Buckmark that I had trouble finding the dot, then on my current Ruger MK4 22/45 lite. Last Saturday I caught myself shooting targets as the dot passed the plate instead of getting a good sight picture but the hits were there. I have been trying to get faster and things lined up last weekend.

So much so that I decided to shoot my CORE with its RMR on it in our IPSC match today. I shot it Christmas eve and noticed my trigger control needs to be better, hits just outside of the A zone when trying to transition quickly to the next target. A big difference than just hitting a plate. Easy to go faster than I can shoot so I still have a lot of work to do but I can see more dots in my future. Making hits at 50 yards is simple compared to irons, keeping both eyes open and seeing the whole spread in front of me is a bonus too. Although I find myself lazy when going back to irons and have to really concentrate. There's just no comparison. I have a spare 2.0 Compact now and I can see me sending it off to be cut one day too.
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 12/30/18
I've about talked myself into shooting Carry Optics in 2019. I really don't want to, I've got several thousand dollars in 2011s and 12K rounds of match .40 loaded. But we're carrying them at work now and I've got the 2.0C cut, so shooting Carry Optics seems like the responsible thing to do and a way to get the learning curve accelerated.
Posted By: TWR Re: MRDS User? - 12/30/18
I was reminded again today that this CORE has more muzzle flip than my other pistols. Especially on longer strings of fire. I did okay but I feel like overall I might be better to stick with irons or try and figure out why this thing bucks so much. I may switch out the Apex barrel and see if that's it, I really didn't notice it until I put it in and added the dot

Of course there were a few mental mistakes I made that had nothing to do with the gun but that's part of it.
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 12/31/18
Bluedreaux,

I tried the optic deal and I just couldn't get fast enough with it when shooting from the 7yd line and closer. My times increased dramatically. If I had access to some matches at the time I'd have stuck with it. But shooting by myself just for schits and grins wasn't worth the effort to me.

Now that I have access to competition I may give it another go.

They are the future for sure. I'd like to see some pics of your setup if you have the time.
Posted By: avonac Re: MRDS User? - 12/31/18
I have been carrying a Glock with a RMR 06 as a duty gun for just over a year. I don’t see myself going back to irons anytime soon. The things I had to work thru were keeping my presentation clean so the dot would be there and realizing that the dot appeared to wobble more at distance. Accuracy at distance now comes easy and fast. I’ve got a M&P 2.0 waiting to get milled for a Delta Point next.
Posted By: RyanTX Re: MRDS User? - 01/02/19
I've got a Leupold Delta Point Pro. Had it on a Glock 34 MOS at first, but have moved it to a Sig P320 X-five. I've been playing at the range with it, and have begun shooting carry optics with it. Like many, the big learning curve for me was/is finding the dot on the draw. But, I've been getting better. It is a lot faster once up and "found". I've been sidelined the past couple of months with a broken foot, so I haven't been getting any match time with it lately.

I've also got a Vortex Viper on a Ruger mark III and a Burris FFII on another one. I've never had a problem with either.

I haven't moved one to a carry gun yet, but I'm considering it.
Posted By: jimmyp Re: MRDS User? - 01/03/19
How do you like the delta point pro compared to the viper? I am trying to get into the red dot game but cannot decide on a red dot. Yea the rmr has the best rep but it has a bottom mounted battery and I don't want to remove it even every 30K hours...
Posted By: TWR Re: MRDS User? - 01/03/19
I thought removing the RMR or my JPoint to change the battery was going to be a pain but they've never needed to be re-zeroed so I wouldn't let that stop me.
Posted By: firstcoueswas80 Re: MRDS User? - 01/03/19
30000 hours is like 3.5 years. Having to rezero once in almost 4 years isnt that big of a deal.
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Originally Posted by deflave
I'd like to see some pics of your setup if you have the time.


[Linked Image]

Close up of the integral rear sight for the DPP.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Work gun and personal gun.

[Linked Image]

Window difference between the RMR and DPP.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Originally Posted by TWR
I may switch out the Apex barrel and see if that's it,


If you get tired of that Apex barrel let me know.
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Originally Posted by RyanTX
Like many, the big learning curve for me was/is finding the dot on the draw.It is a lot faster once up and "found".


Originally Posted by deflave
I tried the optic deal and I just couldn't get fast enough with it when shooting from the 7yd line and closer. My times increased dramatically.


I got advice on my presentation from some open shooters who use dots exclusively and it helped a lot. I'd probably have to video it to make this make sense but I'll try.

On the presentation, don't try to drive the front sight directly to the target like you normally would with iron sights. It tends to bounce at full extension and I believe that's where a lot of people lose the dot, then start moving the gun around trying to find it.

Instead, push the gun straight out and then raise it up to your line of sight. By the time it's "up", the bounce has settled and the dot has settled in the window.
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Originally Posted by jimmyp
How do you like the delta point pro compared to the viper? .


I've never used a Vortex dot, but based on what I've seen with their AR dot optics it's probably trash. I wouldn't even bother mounting one on a slide.

I don't think the bottom mounted battery is that big of a deal. Just break the Loctite, switch the battery, then rotate your carry ammo when you verify zero.
Posted By: Yondering Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Agreed, the RMR wouldn't be as popular as it is if the bottom mounted battery was that big of a deal. The advantage of the lower body profile goes along with that bottom mounted battery too.

Blue, FYI, you'll want to Loctite that DPP rear sight in place really well. They do tend to come loose otherwise.

I've installed one Vortex optic on a Glock slide, and tried to talk my buddy out of it in favor of a better optic. I wouldn't consider mounting one on any of my own pistols unless it was just a range toy, but even then I'd just spend a little more for a DPP.
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Originally Posted by RyanTX
Like many, the big learning curve for me was/is finding the dot on the draw.It is a lot faster once up and "found".


Originally Posted by deflave
I tried the optic deal and I just couldn't get fast enough with it when shooting from the 7yd line and closer. My times increased dramatically.


I got advice on my presentation from some open shooters who use dots exclusively and it helped a lot. I'd probably have to video it to make this make sense but I'll try.

On the presentation, don't try to drive the front sight directly to the target like you normally would with iron sights. It tends to bounce at full extension and I believe that's where a lot of people lose the dot, then start moving the gun around trying to find it.

Instead, push the gun straight out and then raise it up to your line of sight. By the time it's "up", the bounce has settled and the dot has settled in the window.


Interesting. I may have to try that again.
Posted By: RyanTX Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
Originally Posted by jimmyp
How do you like the delta point pro compared to the viper? .


I've never used a Vortex dot, but based on what I've seen with their AR dot optics it's probably trash. I wouldn't even bother mounting one on a slide.

I don't think the bottom mounted battery is that big of a deal. Just break the Loctite, switch the battery, then rotate your carry ammo when you verify zero.


Thanks for the tips on presentation Blue.

I've got my Vortex Viper mounted on a Ruger mkiii, so low recoil and no slide movement. That's about where I think it would be good for. The glass is clear and the dot is sharp, I just wouldn't have as much faith in it on a slide with some recoil. I know several folks who use one in this application and have had no problems (yet).


But, I prefer the Leupold and have more faith in it's ruggedness and reliability. And, it's worked flawlessly on my Carry Optics rig.

Interestingly enough, the USPSA equipment survey from the nationals just came out. For optics manufacturers in the Carry Optic division, it went like this:

Leupold = 36%
Sig = 29%
Vortex = 16%
C-More = 6%
Burris = 6%
Trijicon = 5%
Posted By: firstcoueswas80 Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
I have the RMR on my G40. I havent rang it out too much as I use it for javelina hunting. Killed one last Feb. Replaced the factory trigger with a Overwatch Precision DAT.
Posted By: Yondering Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Originally Posted by RyanTX
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
[quote=jimmyp]How do you like the delta point pro compared to the viper? .




Interestingly enough, the USPSA equipment survey from the nationals just came out. For optics manufacturers in the Carry Optic division, it went like this:

Leupold = 36%
Sig = 29%
Vortex = 16%
C-More = 6%
Burris = 6%
Trijicon = 5%


Good info if you're setting up a competition gun. Don't be confused into thinking that translates to a carry gun though; there are significant differences that shuffle those optic choices around a lot.
Posted By: jerrywoodswalker Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by RyanTX

Interestingly enough, the USPSA equipment survey from the nationals just came out. For optics manufacturers in the Carry Optic division, it went like this:

Leupold = 36%
Sig = 29%
Vortex = 16%
C-More = 6%
Burris = 6%
Trijicon = 5%


Good info if you're setting up a competition gun. Don't be confused into thinking that translates to a carry gun though; there are significant differences that shuffle those optic choices around a lot.



Such as?

Thanks,

Jerry
Posted By: jimmyp Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Blue I called Leupold and they tell me the battery life on the delta point pro is 72 hours on bright enough to see in bright light setting. So does this bother you? I guess its ok for competition shooting but would hate the battery to die on me while hunting. Do you like the Delta Point Pro enough over the RMR that the battery lifetime is not significant in the grand scheme of things??
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
72 hours? How could you use that?
Posted By: RyanTX Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by RyanTX
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
[quote=jimmyp]How do you like the delta point pro compared to the viper? .




Interestingly enough, the USPSA equipment survey from the nationals just came out. For optics manufacturers in the Carry Optic division, it went like this:

Leupold = 36%
Sig = 29%
Vortex = 16%
C-More = 6%
Burris = 6%
Trijicon = 5%


Good info if you're setting up a competition gun. Don't be confused into thinking that translates to a carry gun though; there are significant differences that shuffle those optic choices around a lot.


Let's see, gleaning information from shooters who use these sights in situations where a) they need them to work, repeatedly; b) they need a sight that is easy to see and acquire the target in a rapid manner; c) they want something that will be able to withstand thousands of rounds of firings and still be dependable and accurate;

Yeah, none of that would be applicable to someone interested in setting one up on a carry gun :roll eyes:

edited to add that, yes, not everything used in competition rolls over into daily use, but there is certainly some crossover and some information that can be beneficial/applicable to both.
Posted By: Yondering Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
Originally Posted by jerrywoodswalker
Originally Posted by Yondering
Originally Posted by RyanTX

Interestingly enough, the USPSA equipment survey from the nationals just came out. For optics manufacturers in the Carry Optic division, it went like this:

Leupold = 36%
Sig = 29%
Vortex = 16%
C-More = 6%
Burris = 6%
Trijicon = 5%


Good info if you're setting up a competition gun. Don't be confused into thinking that translates to a carry gun though; there are significant differences that shuffle those optic choices around a lot.



Such as?

Thanks,

Jerry


Such as varying light conditions, for one. A carry gun might be used in the dark, or in bright noon Arizona sun, and the optic should be automatically functional in either without adjusting settings. An optic on a competition gun can be adjusted for the current conditions, for the most part.

Leupold's motion sensor tech is another one, where the dot is switched on when it detects motion and shuts off after 5 minutes of inactivity. For a range gun that spends most of it's life in the safe, that works great. That same optic carried in your waistband will be switched on all the time, and the electronics should be designed around that.

And of course there's durability. Competition shooting is not fighting. Priorities for a competition or target optic are more towards clear glass, window size, etc (all things the DPP is great for). For a carry gun though, being able to take a beating and always being on, visible, and zeroed are higher priorities.

I'd think anyone looking for a carry optic would want to consider these things before just copying whatever the top competition shooters are using.
Posted By: jimmyp Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19

72 hours of "on" even with a hunting pistol just does not sound like its a lot, even if it shuts off after 5 minutes.
Posted By: TWR Re: MRDS User? - 01/04/19
I'm just a beginner in this competition thing but I've seen more Chinese optics and Chinese clones on rifles and pistols used than I ever would've thought. I've also seen plenty of them die.
Posted By: widrahthaar Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
72 hours doesn’t seem right i’ve been carrying a delta point equipped Glock as my daily and the battery hasn’t been changed in 3 months.
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
Blue,

Do you think the co-witness sights are essential or would you be just fine without the option?

Also, which holster are you using with the Compact?
Posted By: JOG Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
Originally Posted by widrahthaar
72 hours doesn’t seem right i’ve been carrying a delta point equipped Glock as my daily and the battery hasn’t been changed in 3 months.


Can you give me an idea of how sensitive the motion sensor is? Does walking with a holstered pistol 'wake' the sight?
Posted By: widrahthaar Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
Originally Posted by JOG
Originally Posted by widrahthaar
72 hours doesn’t seem right i’ve been carrying a delta point equipped Glock as my daily and the battery hasn’t been changed in 3 months.


Can you give me an idea of how sensitive the motion sensor is? Does walking with a holstered pistol 'wake' the sight?

I honestly have no clue. I’ll try and see and get back to you.
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
When I had mine simply touching it activated the site.

72 hours does not seem right.
Posted By: Yondering Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
Originally Posted by JOG
Originally Posted by widrahthaar
72 hours doesn’t seem right i’ve been carrying a delta point equipped Glock as my daily and the battery hasn’t been changed in 3 months.


Can you give me an idea of how sensitive the motion sensor is? Does walking with a holstered pistol 'wake' the sight?


Yes, absolutely. You can't pick it up gently enough to avoid turning it on. If it's in your belt and you're breathing, the dot is on.
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
Originally Posted by jimmyp
Blue I called Leupold and they tell me the battery life on the delta point pro is 72 hours on bright enough to see in bright light setting.


I don't know what the battery life will be for daily carry, but 72 hours doesn't seem right. Folks have told me they get 3 months on a DPP for a carry gun, but I don't know their actual carry habits. I put a Duracell in mine six days ago and have had it on me more than 72 hours since then and it's still on.


Originally Posted by JOG

Can you give me an idea of how sensitive the motion sensor is? Does walking with a holstered pistol 'wake' the sight?


We've got one on a SIM pistol at work that sits on top of a pretty sturdy metal cabinet. Just swinging the door, even when it's already actually open, turns the optic on. If it's touching your body it's definitely on.

Originally Posted by deflave
Blue,

Do you think the co-witness sights are essential or would you be just fine without the option?

Also, which holster are you using with the Compact?


I wouldn't have a carry gun without them (I say that but I've carried this one for a week without them) just because sooner or later it's gonna die on you. I've got a suppressor height front sight waiting for me at work.

I had a holster made for it with the TLR7 but it's still not right even after going back to the shop once. The kydex is too thin and flexes enough to activate the light. So without the light I've been using a Harry's Holsters model with a claw at 3 o'clock. He sent us a box of them to try and so far I'm very impressed. I've had it on for several 16 hour days and it's been surprisingly comfortable. It seems very well built and he molds several carry options into the holster so you can switch from soft loops to a belt hook or whatever you want without needing a new holster shell. If it would accommodate a light I'd carry it permanently.

Originally Posted by Yondering


Such as varying light conditions, for one. A carry gun might be used in the dark, or in bright noon Arizona sun, and the optic should be automatically functional in either without adjusting settings. An optic on a competition gun can be adjusted for the current conditions, for the most part.


Just because an optic automatically adjusts doesn't mean that it will automatically adjust correctly. Many end users and some of the guys at upper end of using MRDS for fighting guns prefer to have their optics permanently adjusted to their preference rather than letting the optic decide the dot brightness. The dots can't account for drastically different lighting conditions, such as weapon mounted or handheld lights used in dark environments, or for when the optic is in a dark place but the shooter is looking into a brighter area.

I'll include a link to Aaron Cowan's paper in the next post so that it doesn't get lost here.

Originally Posted by Yondering

Leupold's motion sensor tech is another one, where the dot is switched on when it detects motion and shuts off after 5 minutes of inactivity. For a range gun that spends most of it's life in the safe, that works great. That same optic carried in your waistband will be switched on all the time, and the electronics should be designed around that.

And of course there's durability. Competition shooting is not fighting. Priorities for a competition or target optic are more towards clear glass, window size, etc (all things the DPP is great for). For a carry gun though, being able to take a beating and always being on, visible, and zeroed are higher priorities.

I'd think anyone looking for a carry optic would want to consider these things before just copying whatever the top competition shooters are using.


When you say that "the electronics should be designed around that" it seems like your implying that they're not. If the DPP electronics aren't robust enough to handle constant on use then please tell us where you're getting that from, because I'd sure like to know about it.

From Cowan's paper you can see a very detailed list of optic tests. Every 500 rounds he conducted drop tests onto the optic from shoulder height, water submersion for one hour, frozen for 24 hours, and heating to 150* for 24 hours, then verified that the optic held zero, then kept repeating the tests.

At the end of four years of record keeping he only recommends the RMR and DPP for duty use.
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
If you want to know about MRDS sights, this is the guy to go to. Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics has done a tremendous amount of research and work on the topic of MRDS for fighting guns. It includes information about accuracy tests, accuracy tests in force on force scenarios, optic reliability tests, etc.

http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7dc128_c8da57977a8c4b53903192fa603fce6f.pdf
Posted By: jimmyp Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
I will call Leup again Monday, when I asked the question the technician did not know the answer and had to look it up, maybe he made a mistake.
Posted By: TWR Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
I can't view the link from this device but if it's the one I looked at he said not all batteries are created equal. Seems like he recommended Duracell but I can't remember for sure.
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
Originally Posted by TWR
I can't view the link from this device but if it's the one I looked at he said not all batteries are created equal. Seems like he recommended Duracell but I can't remember for sure.


Yeah, he recommends Duracell. Apparently they're a little thicker so they help to maintain contact with the battery terminals during recoil, or something like that.
Posted By: TWR Re: MRDS User? - 01/05/19
I went out and shot my CORE/RMR again this morning, I still can't believe how much muzzle flip this combo has compared to shooting my 2.0C. I added the TLR-1 light and things were better. I also tried the factory barrel and the only thing different was my group sizes. I may yet give up on this adventure and sell the pistol/sight, if I do I'll let you know on the Apex barrel. It really sucks to have spent so much money with Apex to get this thing shooting like the 2.0C does from the factory.
Posted By: Formidilosus Re: MRDS User? - 01/06/19
Originally Posted by Yondering


Such as varying light conditions, for one. A carry gun might be used in the dark, or in bright noon Arizona sun, and the optic should be automatically functional in either without adjusting settings. An optic on a competition gun can be adjusted for the current conditions, for the most part.

Leupold's motion sensor tech is another one, where the dot is switched on when it detects motion and shuts off after 5 minutes of inactivity. For a range gun that spends most of it's life in the safe, that works great. That same optic carried in your waistband will be switched on all the time, and the electronics should be designed around that.

And of course there's durability. Competition shooting is not fighting. Priorities for a competition or target optic are more towards clear glass, window size, etc (all things the DPP is great for). For a carry gun though, being able to take a beating and always being on, visible, and zeroed are higher priorities.

I'd think anyone looking for a carry optic would want to consider these things before just copying whatever the top competition shooters are using.




I wouldn’t go off the USPSA list either, but only because most shooters are cheap. Durability of RDS’s on pistols is lacking in all but a few. However, the problem with your thinking, is that every single high level organization that uses red dot pistols for real have all come to the conclusion that Auto adjust sucks. There is no difference in using a RDS on a pistol and an RDS on a carbine. Set the brightness to the highest light level expected and shoot with both eyes open. I adjust the brightness once in the morning, and once in the evening.


I’ve been using red dot equipped duty/carry pistols since 2009. This is at the beginning of their use for duty. Between myself and teammates I have seen at least 50,000 rounds put on JP/Tasco/Shield/Trijicon/etc mini’s, Trijicon RMR and Type 2, Leupold DP and Pro, MRDS, Burris, Vortex, etc, etc. All used heavily on duty, carry, and competition pistols under all conditions. From -20 degrees and in 4 feet of snow, to 140 degrees and desert.


The only ones I would mount and use are-

Trijicon RMR 06 Type 2
Leupold Delta Point Pro.





Originally Posted by TWR
I went out and shot my CORE/RMR again this morning, I still can't believe how much muzzle flip this combo has compared to shooting my 2.0C. I added the TLR-1 light and things were better. I also tried the factory barrel and the only thing different was my group sizes. I may yet give up on this adventure and sell the pistol/sight, if I do I'll let you know on the Apex barrel. It really sucks to have spent so much money with Apex to get this thing shooting like the 2.0C does from the factory.



Well, the muzzle flip is the same regardless of irons or dot, it’s just that the dot shows it. Which is really the point of a dot- you see more. If you have an optimum grip and stance, then you learn to except the dot movement and run it.


On average it takes a solidly trained shooter (read B class shooter) around 8,000-10,000 focused rounds to completely master the dot in all situations. The payoff is worth it.
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 01/07/19
Originally Posted by Formidilosus


On average it takes a solidly trained shooter (read B class shooter) around 8,000-10,000 focused rounds to completely master the dot in all situations. The payoff is worth it.


What does it require to get a novice to exceed the use of irons?
Posted By: RufusG Re: MRDS User? - 01/07/19
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
... and I've got the 2.0C cut, so ...


Why did you choose to have your slide milled? You can mount these kinds of sights with an adapter and the rear sight dovetail, can't you? I'm curious as to the benefits of each option.
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 01/07/19
We have one dovetail mount on a gun and it just doesn’t seem very rigged. And it make the optic sit much higher than a Miller slide.

With the milling the optic is completely recessed in the slide with tabs protruding into the base of the optic. There’s not much that can move it as long as the Loctite holds.
Posted By: Cheyenne Re: MRDS User? - 01/07/19

Originally Posted by Formidilosus

I’ve been using red dot equipped duty/carry pistols since 2009. This is at the beginning of their use for duty. Between myself and teammates I have seen at least 50,000 rounds put on JP/Tasco/Shield/Trijicon/etc mini’s, Trijicon RMR and Type 2, Leupold DP and Pro, MRDS, Burris, Vortex, etc, etc. All used heavily on duty, carry, and competition pistols under all conditions. From -20 degrees and in 4 feet of snow, to 140 degrees and desert.

The only ones I would mount and use are-

Trijicon RMR 06 Type 2
Leupold Delta Point Pro.


Thanks for your insight. Have you had a chance to evaluate the Sig P320 RX as part of your testing?
Posted By: Yondering Re: MRDS User? - 01/07/19
Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Originally Posted by Yondering


Such as varying light conditions, for one. A carry gun might be used in the dark, or in bright noon Arizona sun, and the optic should be automatically functional in either without adjusting settings. An optic on a competition gun can be adjusted for the current conditions, for the most part.

Leupold's motion sensor tech is another one, where the dot is switched on when it detects motion and shuts off after 5 minutes of inactivity. For a range gun that spends most of it's life in the safe, that works great. That same optic carried in your waistband will be switched on all the time, and the electronics should be designed around that.

And of course there's durability. Competition shooting is not fighting. Priorities for a competition or target optic are more towards clear glass, window size, etc (all things the DPP is great for). For a carry gun though, being able to take a beating and always being on, visible, and zeroed are higher priorities.

I'd think anyone looking for a carry optic would want to consider these things before just copying whatever the top competition shooters are using.




I wouldn’t go off the USPSA list either, but only because most shooters are cheap. Durability of RDS’s on pistols is lacking in all but a few. However, the problem with your thinking, is that every single high level organization that uses red dot pistols for real have all come to the conclusion that Auto adjust sucks. There is no difference in using a RDS on a pistol and an RDS on a carbine. Set the brightness to the highest light level expected and shoot with both eyes open. I adjust the brightness once in the morning, and once in the evening.


I’ve been using red dot equipped duty/carry pistols since 2009. This is at the beginning of their use for duty. Between myself and teammates I have seen at least 50,000 rounds put on JP/Tasco/Shield/Trijicon/etc mini’s, Trijicon RMR and Type 2, Leupold DP and Pro, MRDS, Burris, Vortex, etc, etc. All used heavily on duty, carry, and competition pistols under all conditions. From -20 degrees and in 4 feet of snow, to 140 degrees and desert.


The only ones I would mount and use are-

Trijicon RMR 06 Type 2
Leupold Delta Point Pro.



Well, I've only been carrying a red dot Glock of some form every day since 2012 so you've got a couple years on me, and I've only got about 40,000 rounds through the various high end red dots myself. I test my gear pretty thoroughly and have not run into the light issues Bluedreax describes with a LED RMR. The "dual illuminated" versions definitely have those issues though IME. All of my testing and pass/fail criteria are based on personal concealed carry though, not proactive door kicking, and there are some differences that apply to dots as mentioned above.

If you really think you can predict the light level for an unexpected fight with a carry gun, more power to you. Personally I think some of you guys confuse proactive vs reactive stuff sometimes; chances are high you wont' be able to adjust dot brightness of a carry gun when you need it, and I've yet to find a brightness setting that works everywhere on either an RMR or DPP. The dot in my belt right now is an adjustable RM07; I could adjust the brightness if I thought that was better, but it stays on auto mode and is always visible when I need it.

I do agree on choosing between the RMR and DPP, although not necessarily the Type 2 RMR as I've killed 4 in a row in the past year on the same guns that ran the type 1 RMR flawlessly before.
Durability is just the most basic requirement, but you're right that most of the dots out there don't cut it; I've seen most of the others you mention go down as well.
Posted By: Yondering Re: MRDS User? - 01/07/19
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux


When you say that "the electronics should be designed around that" it seems like your implying that they're not. If the DPP electronics aren't robust enough to handle constant on use then please tell us where you're getting that from, because I'd sure like to know about it.


I'm saying battery life for the DPP is designed around the optic shutting off when not in use. I didn't say anything about durability or whether it's robust enough or not.
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 01/07/19
Yondering,

Do you think MRDS are suitable for duty carry or not?
Posted By: jwp475 Re: MRDS User? - 01/07/19
Originally Posted by Yondering


Well, I've only been carrying a red dot Glock of some form every day since 2012 so you've got a couple years on me, and I've only got about 40,000 rounds through the various high end red dots myself. I test my gear pretty thoroughly and have not run into the light issues Bluedreax describes with a LED RMR. The "dual illuminated" versions definitely have those issues though IME. All of my testing and pass/fail criteria are based on personal concealed carry though, not proactive door kicking, and there are some differences that apply to dots as mentioned above.





How many did you put 40,000 rounds through? How long did it take you to put 40,000 rounds through one.
Posted By: RufusG Re: MRDS User? - 01/07/19
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
We have one dovetail mount on a gun and it just doesn’t seem very rigged. And it make the optic sit much higher than a Miller slide.

With the milling the optic is completely recessed in the slide with tabs protruding into the base of the optic. There’s not much that can move it as long as the Loctite holds.


Thanks for the info
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 01/07/19
Form,

The fiddle fugking with brightness on a duty gun bothers me.

Would you carry one sans iron sights? And do you think co-witnessing is imperative?
Posted By: Fisch Re: MRDS User? - 01/08/19
How do you like the Overwatch Precision set up ? I had Glockmeister do the polish job on my model 40 trigger when I purchased it and I do not have any issues with it but I am always looking for improvements.
Posted By: widrahthaar Re: MRDS User? - 01/08/19
Irons help you pick up the dot quicker as you learn to shoot it. I’m no expert but I’ve noticed that much.
Posted By: Yondering Re: MRDS User? - 01/08/19
Originally Posted by deflave
Yondering,

Do you think MRDS are suitable for duty carry or not?


I'm not law enforcement so can't speak from experience there. However, a number of guys in my training group are, and feel that the LED RMR sights are good to go for duty carry. They can certainly handle a beating, as we've verified in training. Of course a solid mount is part of the requirement for being able to take a beating; MOS systems seem to be marginal and dovetail mounts aren't even worth considering.

jwp475, I mean about 40,000 rounds total through red dot equipped carry guns. Over 7 years that's probably a pretty low estimate; I average ~1K rounds per month in 9mm alone although a small portion of that is with stock guns too. The optics in question were mostly RMR LED versions (I've had 8 or 9 of them) plus a couple DPPs, some other stuff like the old DP, dual illum RMR, RMS Shield, Vortex junk etc on friend's gear.
Posted By: Formidilosus Re: MRDS User? - 01/08/19
Originally Posted by deflave


What does it require to get a novice to exceed the use of irons?


That’s a bit of a convoluted answer. What I was alluding to with 10k rounds was “mastery”. The issue with a dot isn’t in accuracy or speed once the dot has been found, it’s in finding the dot under stress with a less than perfect draw/position. It’s not that’s it untrainable, it’s just that few put the work in to get their draw and presentation burned in. Where this shows itself is when a person new to the dot goes into FOF, pulls the pistol up and can’t find the dot. A lot of the time they will start shooting through the window rather than finding the dot or sights because they feel they are behind the curve. The answer to that is of course correct training, driving the sights first to pick the dot up, and emotional control.


If I had my way, everyone would start with the dot from the beginning. So to answer your question three days with 1,000’ish rounds with intensive, structured FOF to drive training and emotional control objectives home.






Originally Posted by RufusG

Why did you choose to have your slide milled? You can mount these kinds of sights with an adapter and the rear sight dovetail, can't you? I'm curious as to the benefits of each option.


Blue answered already, but dovetailed dots aren’t the way to go for real use. First Co-witnessed irons are a requirement. Second, there’s already a training issue with dots, mounting them higher above where traditional sights are, only compounds this.






Originally Posted by Cheyenne

Thanks for your insight. Have you had a chance to evaluate the Sig P320 RX as part of your testing?


Yes. The pistols are fine, but I wouldn’t choose to use the Sig red dot unless I had no choice.







Originally Posted by Yondering
]

If you really think you can predict the light level for an unexpected fight with a carry gun, more power to you. Personally I think some of you guys confuse proactive vs reactive stuff sometimes; chances are high you wont' be able to adjust dot brightness of a carry gun when you need it, and I've yet to find a brightness setting that works everywhere on either an RMR or DPP. The dot in my belt right now is an adjustable RM07; I could adjust the brightness if I thought that was better, but it stays on auto mode and is always visible when I need it.

I do agree on choosing between the RMR and DPP, although not necessarily the Type 2 RMR as I've killed 4 in a row in the past year on the same guns that ran the type 1 RMR flawlessly before.
Durability is just the most basic requirement, but you're right that most of the dots out there don't cut it; I've seen most of the others you mention go down as well.



I don’t think I can predict anything. The dot is kept bright enough so it’s visable in the harshest (brightest) light I will find myself in.

While I will concede that a lot of mil dudes do not recognize the differences between work when they have 6 of their best friends with them, and going to the movie theater on the weekend- I do know the differences. I’m sitting eating Thai right now with a G19 and RMR in appendix. It is nighttime, yet the dot is set bright enough that I can see it even while looking into lights. There’s zero issue if I use it outside and the dot is “too bright”. Both eyes open and you can still aim fine. Not ideal maybe, but works much better than an auto adjust, being outside in the dark and needing to shooting into a lighted area/building, or around vehicle headlights.

All of us started with auto adjust dots. We all thought that was the way to go. However we have been in enough situations where the dot wasn’t bright enough. All of us now use adjustable intensity sights. I would rather have a dot too bright and bloomed out yet still usable, than not be able to see it at all. After about the fifth time having to use the BUIS to make a shot, I had enough.


This is not to say that I think auto adjust dots are unusable or whatever. Just that while auto adjust works most of the time, when it doesn’t- it doesn’t at all. User adjustables are rarely perfect for the lighting conditions you are in, but they can be set where I’m never having to go to the irons.




Originally Posted by deflave
Form,

The fiddle fugking with brightness on a duty gun bothers me.

Would you carry one sans iron sights? And do you think co-witnessing is imperative?



I would not carry one without co-witnessed irons. Co-witnessing is a requirement on a standard carry/duty pistol. Specialty uses like the Geissele 6 Second mount withstanding, there is no dot that is 100% reliable right now. We have seen very good service from the RMR Type 2’s, however I don’t think we’ll see a dot that’s “there” until the Aimpoint gets out.


On the adjustable brightness. If you bloom it out ridiculously and take it inside a room, you can still aim it both eyes open. As above, I and everyone I know that uses a dot adjusts it twice a day- once in the morning you turn it up, as evening hits you turn it down two levels. Same as the carbine.
Posted By: Yondering Re: MRDS User? - 01/08/19
Originally Posted by deflave
Form,

The fiddle fugking with brightness on a duty gun bothers me.

Would you carry one sans iron sights? And do you think co-witnessing is imperative?


That is what bothers me too, and is why I commented earlier; I want my carry gun to be ready to go all the time, without having to adjust anything for current conditions. Especially concerning to me is the possibility of forgetting to turn down the brightness when it gets dark or you leave an indoor area; a bright dot can obscure the whole window. Going the other way is less of a problem as the dot is not there but you can use the irons.

IMO co-witnessed irons are imperative. I would not carry a serious pistol without co-witnessed irons; I'd rather go back to irons only if I had to choose one or the other. Even past the "training wheels" stage, co-witnessed irons are part of my daily check, used to verify the dot is still zeroed.
Posted By: Yondering Re: MRDS User? - 01/08/19
Originally Posted by Formidilosus



On the adjustable brightness. If you bloom it out ridiculously and take it inside a room, you can still aim it both eyes open. As above, I and everyone I know that uses a dot adjusts it twice a day- once in the morning you turn it up, as evening hits you turn it down two levels. Same as the carbine.


And I and most of the guys I know, which includes some door kickers and LE guys in my training group, prefer the auto adjust. I haven't had the trouble you've had, and it's not for lack of trying. Only time I've had an LED RMR dot wash out is when aiming directly at a bright light source (ie spotlight, headlight, etc), but that's just because the LED physically isn't bright enough on max, not because it didn't adjust. It's pretty easy for anyone with a red dot to verify this stuff for themselves, so you can all figure out what works for you.

One thing I've seen from those who've apparently read about dots but not used them - there seems to be an assumption that the RMR sights adjust brightness based on the light conditions where the shooter is. That's not been my experience; the light sensor is pointed forward like the dot, and adjusts brightness based on where it's pointed. The "dual illuminated" RMR sights are the opposite, their brightness is dependent on light over the shooter, and does not compensate for aiming into a brighter area.

We all have different perspectives on this stuff, but some of the advice I've seen here (including from Blue who came here asking for input) seems to be based on the idea that what's good for one application (like competition or special ops) is automatically good for another (like carry). I do take issue with that, and with some exceptions I think most of us here are intelligent enough to consider the differences.

A couple other points Form - you keep mentioning both eyes open. Yeah, I kind of take that for granted since I've always done that; IMO anyone serious about this stuff should be shooting with both eyes open if they can, along with practicing to aim with either eye.
About the dot blooming the window when it's too bright - that's not too much of a problem when the lens is clear, but concealed carry pistols tend to pick up lint and gunk in the window and the blooming can get a lot worse, to the point the optic is useless and in the way. IMO you're opting to deal with a much higher likelihood of that happening, while I'm opting to deal with a very small likelihood the dot won't be visible but the irons will still be available.


One final thought - for guys who do insist on setting a fixed brightness and screwing with it several times a day - that's a whole lot easier on an adjustable RMR than it is on the DPP with it's single center button.
Posted By: jimmyp Re: MRDS User? - 01/08/19
yondering with the auto adjustable brightness models if your using a high lumen tactical light and the dot has a gotten dim in the dark, once you switch the light on does the auto adjust bring the dot illumination up fast enough? I would think it would be faster than you could pull a trigger but just wondered on the RMR if light on, shoot instantly was possible.
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 01/09/19
Formidilio and Blue,

Thanks for the responses.

My personal take on them is the technology just isn't there yet. 20K guys fiddle fugking with brightness settings twice a day on a duty optic just isn't my idea of practical.

You both stating that you'd not run them without co-witnessing irons concerns me as well. Seems they're just not ready.
Posted By: Cheyenne Re: MRDS User? - 01/09/19
That was my take away also. I'll just wait for the technology to improve or my eyes to get worse before wading into that (for handguns).
Posted By: RufusG Re: MRDS User? - 01/09/19
Does anyone think we're close to the point where manufacturers will set up their slides to just bolt theses things straight on?
Posted By: TWR Re: MRDS User? - 01/09/19
We have the Sig 320 RX, Glock MOS and S&W CORE that are cut from the factory. I fully believe red dots are the future.
Posted By: Formidilosus Re: MRDS User? - 01/09/19
Originally Posted by deflave
Formidilio and Blue,

Thanks for the responses.

My personal take on them is the technology just isn't there yet. 20K guys fiddle fugking with brightness settings twice a day on a duty optic just isn't my idea of practical.

You both stating that you'd not run them without co-witnessing irons concerns me as well. Seems they're just not ready.



On the adjusting brighness- do you not adjust the red dot on your carbine?


I wouldn’t run any red dot on any weapon without BUIS. Aimpoints on my carbines have BUIS.
Posted By: ARKginger Re: MRDS User? - 01/09/19
Form,

Have you got to use the new Aimpoint Acro P-1 yet? I'd like to get into the MRDS game and was curious if it was worth waiting/saving for over the RMR
Posted By: FreeMe Re: MRDS User? - 01/09/19
Form - what has been your experience with dot sights in extreme cold, regarding condensation. Has there been a problem with fogging when going from warm to cold temps, such as exiting a heated car in sub-freezing weather?
Posted By: Yondering Re: MRDS User? - 01/09/19
Originally Posted by jimmyp
yondering with the auto adjustable brightness models if your using a high lumen tactical light and the dot has a gotten dim in the dark, once you switch the light on does the auto adjust bring the dot illumination up fast enough? I would think it would be faster than you could pull a trigger but just wondered on the RMR if light on, shoot instantly was possible.


The adjustment is not quite instantaneous, but takes just a few milliseconds, ie faster than you can react, IME.

I have heard/read guys saying they take something like 10 seconds to adjust; that's flat out wrong and I can only assume they've either got a broken optic or they read and misunderstood the technical specs.


Guys, the BUIS are not just there in case the optic breaks. There's a lot more to the co-witnessed sight system than that.
Posted By: Formidilosus Re: MRDS User? - 01/10/19
Originally Posted by ARKginger
Form,

Have you got to use the new Aimpoint Acro P-1 yet? I'd like to get into the MRDS game and was curious if it was worth waiting/saving for over the RMR



Yes, but not a ton, and while I may change my mind- it’s bulkier than the RMR so if you’re concealed carrying it, the RMR will probably still win.



Originally Posted by FreeMe
Form - what has been your experience with dot sights in extreme cold, regarding condensation. Has there been a problem with fogging when going from warm to cold temps, such as exiting a heated car in sub-freezing weather?



Yes sir. They have the same issue as any optic in the cold. Almost always still usable, but if it’s been warm near your body or inside and you pull it out in the cold, it’s going to have some external fogging/condensation. As a concealed piece it doesn’t really matter. It not out long enough for it to become an issue. As a duty gun, have to leave it outside or wipe it off when you go outside just like the rifles.
Posted By: dznnf7 Re: MRDS User? - 01/10/19
Condensation only occurs when a cold surface is exposed to warm and humid air. Going inside with a cold optic is where the condensation happens.
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 01/10/19
Originally Posted by Formidilosus

On the adjusting brighness- do you not adjust the red dot on your carbine?


I wouldn’t run any red dot on any weapon without BUIS. Aimpoints on my carbines have BUIS.


My carbine rides unloaded in a bracket until needed.
Posted By: jwp475 Re: MRDS User? - 01/10/19
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by Formidilosus

On the adjusting brighness- do you not adjust the red dot on your carbine?


I wouldn’t run any red dot on any weapon without BUIS. Aimpoints on my carbines have BUIS.


My carbine rides unloaded in a bracket until needed.



Load man, load!
Posted By: FreeMe Re: MRDS User? - 01/10/19
Originally Posted by dznnf7
Condensation only occurs when a cold surface is exposed to warm and humid air. Going inside with a cold optic is where the condensation happens.


Good point. I had that backwards. AC running in car and hot/humid day. Or in/out/in, vice-versa, whatever. wink

Don't think I'm ready to switch to a dot on my carry guns either. You guys at the tip of the spear can have at it. wink
Posted By: JOG Re: MRDS User? - 01/10/19
Originally Posted by FreeMe
Originally Posted by dznnf7
Condensation only occurs when a cold surface is exposed to warm and humid air. Going inside with a cold optic is where the condensation happens.


Good point. I had that backwards. AC running in car and hot/humid day. Or in/out/in, vice-versa, whatever. wink

Don't think I'm ready to switch to a dot on my carry guns either. You guys at the tip of the spear can have at it. wink


Or breath on a cold day. I've managed to fog/frost sunglasses, rifle scopes, red dots, mobile phones, vehicle inside windows and even the rearview mirror. A person really has to consider which way their breath is headed this time of year.
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 01/11/19
Our major concern is getting out of an air conditioned car in the summer. Everything fogs up if you're lucky enough to get a good car.

On a recommendation from others I've treated the lenses with Cat Crap, which I'm told is very good for such things. Some guy at work treated a lens with it, then brought the pistol from the fridge to the hot range. They kept treating the lens and testing and after five coats they felt comfortable with duty use.

We also do drills with an occluded lens, putting tape over the front of the optic has negligible effects on realistic accuracy needs at defensive distances. A fogged lens wouldn't be exactly the same, but similar.

*Edit--For clarification, with an occluded lens you can easily get A-Zone hits out to 7 yards without any issues.
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 01/11/19
Blue,

You convinced me to dive back in and abandon the idea all in one thread. LMAO.

Great info regardless. I had not thought of the fog issue either.
Posted By: FreeMe Re: MRDS User? - 01/11/19
To be fair, with the occluded lens, you are also without well defined iron sights - but we should be practicing shooting without sights anyway. Not talking about point shooting, but simply aligning the gun without sights. It should be no surprise that A-zone hits are do-able at 7 yards.

Still not putting that device on my carry guns. wink
Posted By: Bluedreaux Re: MRDS User? - 01/12/19
With an occluded lens you still have the dot, you’re just not seeing the target through the lens. Just like a red dot sight on a rifle with the front lens cover closed. You’re not shooting without sights, you’re shooting with the dot and part of the target is obscured.
Posted By: Yondering Re: MRDS User? - 01/13/19
Whenever the lenses on mine have fogged up, I haven't been able to see the dot at all. If the back side of the lens is fogged (the surface that reflects the dot to your eye), it's not the same as just taping up the front of the optic.

Fog has rarely been a problem for my RMRs though except when doing it on purpose.
Posted By: TWR Re: MRDS User? - 01/13/19
I've rarely had a scope fog up on me and never had a red dot fog on a carbine...

If folks use optics on carbines but are looking for a reason not to use them on a pistol, I guess this is as good of a reason not to as any.
Posted By: JCS271 Re: MRDS User? - 01/14/19
I have been following this thread for a week now and just wanted to share my two cents. Because I have great difficulty seeing ANY iron sights, I needed something dramatic to help. I have used red dots on shotguns and illuminated reticles in rifle scopes (VXR and VX6) for years so I knew the technology was out there. I have carried Glocks daily since 1991 so when they came out with the MOS system several years ago I bought a G19 and a Leupold Delta Point Pro 2.5 dot.

After a very short learning curve I am able to consistently make hits with my handgun that I could not have dreamed of as a sharp eyed 21yo deputy or at any other time in my 24yr career. Now 10yrs into a second career that also requires I be armed all the time (concealed, appendix IWB) the DP Pro is the only thing that makes it possible.

Battery life on the Leupold Delta Point Pro with about 12hrs a day on the body carry is approximately 4 months. Since the Pro battery compartment is on top it takes about 20 seconds to make the switch. The "instant on" feature is just that, if the gun vibrates or is touched it turns on long before I am able to pick it up. I leave the dot on HIGH and it is clearly visible in bright conditions and is not overpowering in the dark. Living in Montana it can get a little warm in the summer and a little chilly in the winter. While I have seen the lens fog a few times it was usually when I was blowing dust/lint off the glass and not during normal activity. Still totally usable and cleared within moments.

I have also mounted one on the shorty AR that lives in a bag that I carry daily, it sits next to my desk in the day and my bed at night. Once again the ability to make consistent fast hits at range is simply outstanding. The battery life on the AR unit is about 1 year since it is only on during transit to and from work. It sleeps while I am at my office and when its home.

There are no irons on the AR and my Glock factory sights do not cowitness because at arms length I can't see them anyway. I am quite in tune with my guns and am well aware of their condition and readiness. I have practiced shooting both guns with the sights turned off and can still get hits at gunfight distances if god forbid that were necessary.

There is no doubt in my mind that in 10 years these will be mounted on every LEO gun in the country. The departments will not be able to ignore the dramatic increase in qual scores and eventually hits in shootings by average low skilled officers.

I have had NO issues with mine but if I was going to do it again I would probably buy one of the dedicated slides milled for my exact sight or spend the $135 to have it done to an existing gun. It just mounts the sight a little lower allowing for cowitness of iron sights and a little more stably than with the current adapter plate system.

Additionally I would ONLY consider the Trijicon RMR or the Leupold Delta Point Pro for a personal defense/carry gun. To many issues with operation and function to rely on anything else at this point.


So take the info for what its worth, I carry these guns everyday in real world conditions and they work wonderfully for me. JCS

[Linked Image]
Posted By: deflave Re: MRDS User? - 01/17/19
That's good info JCS. Thanks for the post.

As far as fogging goes, I've found AC'd cars and stepping out into large amounts of humidity are the true test. I think most of MT is too dry to really evaluate that for everyone. But I have no doubt you haven't had any issues with it up there.
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