I received 3 boxes of Underwood’s 10mm 220 Grain hard cast ammo a few weeks ago and went to a local range yesterday to try them out. I was a little apprehensive after reading reports on the web claiming high SDs and worries that Underwood was too hot. I have 4 10mms, a 2011, two 1911s and a P220. I figured if any of them would handle the recoil it would be the P220, so I tried it first. No problem. Completely controllable and accurate. Next up was the 2011. If I were to have trouble with one of my 10s it would be this one.. I’ve bulged brass using heavy hard cast with this one in the past. Again, no problem. Brass looks fine. No issues at all. Primers were somewhat flattened which I expected, but no more than normal. Case head expansion was the same as my reloads which are not nuclear: new case .420 fired case .465. All cases compared were Starline. I’ve read that Underwood is using 800X for this load. I’ve always used Longshot, Blue Dot and AA#9, I guess I’ll give 800X a try.
For cost and quality I’d say Underwood is a good buy.

I shot 150 or so of that load this winter. Shoots pretty good. Im fairly recoil sensitive in handguns and it took a little getting used to, but I do like the load.

Pull a bullet and check before you assume Underwood is using 800X, it'll be pretty obvious because 800x is made of huge flakes. There was a company using 800X long ago, but last I checked (admittedly it's been a while) I don't think Underwood was. I think I remember they were using AA9 or something close to it.

AA9 will do everything 800x can in the 10mm anyway, with safer pressure and it meters easier. I have no reason to bother with measuring cornflakes (800x) for my 10mm loads.

I have never had trouble with Underwood ammo. Or Buffalo Bore and Double Tap for that matter. I have had trouble with CorBon in both 9 & 10mm. I think Underwood is more consistent than the other boutique loaders and usually less expensive to boot.

When I first bought some Underwood ammo with the 140 grain Xtreme Penetrator bullet I got HUGE smilies with my G40 a friend's G20 and a RIA 1911...the first round over the chrono with the 6" G40 was 1701 fps...! Contacted Underwood and they sent a pickup order...they replaced all the ammo and the next batch was 100 fps slower which is about where it should have been....

Have been using their ammo in .38 Super, .380, 9mm as well as 10mm...will be ordering more soon...

Bob

Super pleased with the 220 HC especially for the price. My friend, and fellow fire member made me some wicked 225 HC that I carry now.

Glad they are working for you NM.

I've used 800X, was disappointed in how much variation in the amount of powder dropped from the Dillon measure. I'd never use it again if there was anything else available. WAP (Silhouette) and #7 have been my favorites, never tried #9. I loaded 215 gr with Blue Dot, but weighed each charge.

This post reminded me...last fall traveled to Maine for a bear hunt. Picked up a couple boxes of Buffalo bore for my .454 SRH. At the range I noticed that my cylinder tightened up (significantly) on rounds 5 & 6. I’ll have to pull the box to see which rounds it was. I made a mental note to contact Buffalo Bore and advise them off the issue. I forgot to do it then but now I will. I ended up using Hornady because it shot more accurately in that gun.

Have shot about 40 rounds of the Underwood 220 grain 10mm and it's a pussy cat compared to large revolver loads. Go forth and fear not.

Blue Dot is what I used in the past loading Double Tap hard cast 230 grain Gas checked I think. Mike of Double Tap gave me the load data. Like you I weighed each load. I use a RCBS Charge Master, which has trouble with Blue Dot. I haven’t used 800X, but I’m going to give it a try. I thought AA#9, BD, and Longshot all did pretty well. I don’t shoot a ton of heavy HC bullets, just enough to know where they hit.

Primers backed out? I had that happen on my S&W460, also pierced the primer. New brass, 2 grains under max. That pistol keeps you on your toes. The Casull rounds seem to kick as much as the 460s. I haven’t shot factory rounds out of it. Good luck getting ahold of anyone at Buffalo Bore, I’ve called numerous times and emailed- no response.

No the bullets pushed past the crimp. I’m not sure if it’s a bad batch or this is a common problem.

Definitely not common in my experience.

Looking over the 10mm I have on hand - factory loads - found Underwood 200 gr JHP, and Buffalo Bore 220gr HC. The Underwood claims 1250 fps on the box, the BB says 1200 fps. Right now I have an RIA 1911 and two EAA Witnesses - one blued, one "Wondra" finish in 10mm. Would like to try a Sig 220, as I have one in .45 ACP I really like. My handholds are normally a bit "slower" than these factory loads. I am a BIG fan of 10mm in semi-autos as a woods-hunting gun, and I also tend to prefer heavy HC lead bullets. Some time back, I had a problem with some Double Tap ammo in a Glock G20, otherwise 10mm has been "good" for me, both factory and handholds. I have tried Power Pistol, Universal, Unique, and Titegroup powders with no problems.

Mike Holmes

I use 800X for 45ACP loads with 230 Gold Dots. 800X is a powder you should weigh and not throw. It has large round flakes which do not lend well to simply throwing. It also spikes quickly which makes it all the more a candidate for weighing.

Be very careful working up hot 10mm loads with 800X. You won't know it's too hot until it's way too hot, and you do need to weigh each charge like RickyD said. There are several much better powder choices for heavy 10mm.

Dang, 220's at 1200 is smoking, I'll happily get by with 200's at 1200 fps in my DW 10mm, would like to see a penetration comparison between those two hardcast weights.

It happens, but usually not with a roll crimp. I don’t know how Buffalo Bore does their crimp on the big magnum loads.

Yeah Mike, you’d like the Sig. The Short Reset Trigger is great. Not a 1911 trigger but pretty darn good. It handles recoil better than my1911s. Good accuracy, but wish it had an adjustable rear sight. 1200 is what Underwood is claiming on the 220. When the days get a little longer I’ll have to drag out the crono and see what I’m getting.

Underwood hits their advertised velocity.

I agree with this. 800X has a reputation for unexpected drastic pressure spikes. I have had some even weighing charges.

Longshot or AA#9 for top heavy loads is all you need. Throw your 800X away so you won't be tempted.

That last 50 fps is not worth it.

Was just looking at some chronograph data that I have for the .41 Magnum after looking at the thread on the 10mm vs. .44 Magnum for bear defense....

The 10mm from a 5" barrel is about the same size and over all barrel and chamber length of a S&W N-frame 4" revlver which is what most people would carry for bear defense... I use the .41 Magnum as it is just easier for me to control in a 4" than the .44....

Sectional Density wise:

.401/200 grains/.178
.410/210 grains/.178
.429/225 grains/.174

.401/220 grains/.195
.410/230 grains/.195
.419/250 grains/.194

Don't have any chronograph information on .44 Magnum from a 4" but have lots from a 4" Model 57 .41 Magnum...

Speer Gold Dot 210 grain.......1185
Federal Fusion 210 grain........1280
Federal Classic 210 grain........1266
Remington 210 SP....................1247
Winchester 240 PT....................1166

Have not chronographed either of the 10mm loads in question but have loaded a Montana Bullet Company 200 grain Hard Cast with 8.6 grains of Longshot that is running 1210 fps from RIA 4.25" barrel and 1260 from a 6" PARA Hunter.

Dick has shot the length of a moose with a 230 grain .41 Magnum with a MV of about 1200 fps... Is there going to be any difference between it and a 220 10mm going the same speed...I think not....

Bob

Bob, it is a point in the mind of many that choose a 10mm semi auto over a sixgun.

[quote=NMScout308 Case head expansion was the same as my reloads which are not nuclear: new case .420 fired case .465. All cases compared were Starline. I’ve read that Underwood is using 800X for this load. I’ve always used Longshot, Blue Dot and AA#9, I guess I’ll give 800X a try. [/quote]

.465"?? I hope that is a typo! Any case head expansion OVER .435" is considered HOT! I just purchased a XDm 5.25" last week and have yet to fire it. I have some 180gr. XTP's loaded with 800-X, Longshot and Blue Dot. From the multiple chat forums on 10mm loading it seems to me that Longshot is the most consistent. Most guys that load 800-X weigh each charge as it has very large flakes and doesn't flow thru meters very well. If I get 1300fps with my longshot load, that will be my hunting load. I have a few other powders to burn up for range loads with Berry's 180gr. plated bullets.

Happy handgunning!

Elk Country

I saw that too. Just assumed it was a typo or miss measurement.




Longshot seems to be linear in it's pressure curve. It's a safe powder.

At least in my loads for the 10mm and .460 Rowland .

One of the 10mm pistols I shoot is a long slide Glock 20 (from way before there was a G40), which is a lot closer to the size of that 4" N-frame revolver. (Lay them on top of each other, most guys are surprised how much bigger the revolver really is.) In that G20L, I settled on these as my best full power loads:

Mihec (shallow HP) 200gr - 1350 fps
Mountain Molds custom WFN 220gr - 1300 fps
Mihec 41-220-WFN (sized .401") - 1250 fps

Both of those use AA9 and brass is reloadable as many times as I want with no smiles. Using Blue Dot or Longshot for either load is too hot at that velocity, but they can get within ~50 fps.

For me, that long slide G20 is easier to shoot quickly and accurately than a 4" 41 Magnum, and carries about the same. That was an easy switch for me.

A slight hijack.

Your experience with 460 Rowland loads and Longshot vs AA#7.

I just got a Rowland up and running and will be shooting some Super-ish loads this weekend to get a baseline. I'll be shooting Montana Bullet Works 250 LFN GC and Missouri Bullet Company 250 grain Pinbusters with AA#7.

This is in a 1911 platform.

I have five 10mms that I would have no problem carrying in the woods...my problem would then be...what would I do with my revolvers....

Was wondering if any of you have seen anything in the area of a "round count" for the "typical" bear incident.... Most the ones I have read about have only gone a few rounds, like 1-3, because the bear is either dead, the bear is chewing on the chewee and they can't shoot or the bear ran off...

Never used AA#7 for the Rowland. For Super-ish loads (~28K) it would probably be very good. It works very good for mid range loads in the .357 mag.

I load my .460 loads to, guessing 34k, not the max. Longshot would be my choice if loading close to max also.

Let us know how the AA#7 does with those bullets.

On Quickload, it (AA7) appears to do very good for the Rowland. I have heard that Longshot was a very good Rowland powder and I have no experience with the round. I anticipate trying it

I have some .460 rounds loaded, but they are just to establish a burn-rate baseline and get case capacity, which will help with future development. QL is a good development tool if proper parameters are entered, but the proof is in the pudding....

The Rowland case will theoretically have the same capacity with a bullet seated that a Super does, and AA7 has done well at about 24.5 Kpsi in that round, a load with the LFN GC having a 4 fps SD. My thoughts on the Rowland max pressure is the same as yours, around 34 Kpsi, and at that pressure and OAL I'm able to use with the MBC Pinbusters, 1200 fps is doable with AA7, but don't know if it is going to get squirrelly on me as I creep the pressure up. I could work on the leade and get 1.26" OAL out of the round, but I'm gonna save that for later.

I can seat the MBW LFN GC out to 1.25" without getting into the rifling, but I have to hold it to 1.23" so a loaded round will clear the ejection port, the meplat is so large. Feeding is not an issue in my Super, and so far the Rowland will hand-cycle them. I'll see what happens when I fire it. If it works, it will be my preferred bullet.

You seem to be comfortable with Longshot, I may pick a pound up while wandering around this weekend.

I need to look at my notes from way back. I am using the Clark Kit Conversion. Which is a highly tested and sophisticated comp unit. Using it on a Colt National Match . At that time, new to the .460 I chose to stick with the slower powders. Did not experiment with a lot of different ones. I was so pleased with Longshot, I stuck with it. I might need to go back and look at others. I think I remember reading ( >10 years ago ) that AA changed producers of #7 and that caused me some concern.


Taffin Likes AA#7 for HC bullets.

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt460r.htm

What I have today (#7) is faster burning than default in QL default by 4.2%, which is outside the usual industry standard of plus/minus 3%. That makes the advice of "start low and work up" very wise. I have used the pound I have in heavy bullet .45 ACP and .45 Super, and velocities have been very predictably higher than the QL projection. Any increases in the initial charge have also been linear, at least into the 25 Kpsi region, so I'm still within the powder's comfort zone at that pressure.

I'll take small steps up into the 34 to 35 Kpsi region, looking for inconsistency. It wouldn't hurt to try Longshot anyway, just as an alternative.

Dontcha just hate a valid reason to shoot more??

My Rowland is also a Clark kit.

Yes we both have more work to do. Dang

OK, just got back from taking the Rowland on its maiden voyage.

I ran a couple of Super-class loads through it. Everything behaved. Running the MBW LFN GC and Missouri's Pinbuster right at 1100 fps (QL predictions were less than 1% off) I got 100% feed, fire, and eject, with ejection running about 4 to 5 feet.

The pistol LOVES the Pinbuster! Noticeably more accurate than the LFN GC, though the LFN was usable as far as accuracy is concerned.

The Comp on the Clark kit is efficient, noticeably moreso than the comp I have on the .45 Super, but I expected that. Recoil was sharper feeling than a .45 ACP, but I was able to get back on target just about as fast as with the regular .45 due to lack of muzzle rise.

Now I'll just ease it up towards 1200 fps..

Sounds good Vic

Recoil is not bad for the power your putting out. Mostly rearward.

The number one thing to watch is bullet setback. Take care of your shot brass and do everything for strong bullet pull. I always run mine through an ultrasonic cleaner and use a lee factory crimp die set correctly.

Corbin Cannelure tool to the rescue!

I don't have any pics of them, but I put a cannelure behind the bullet as the last step.

Thanks for bringing that up. Pressure can get out of hand quickly, a couple tenths setback really escalates things. Good time for cleaning with ss pins, too.

.465"?? I hope that is a typo! Any case head expansion OVER .435" is considered HOT! I just purchased a XDm 5.25" last week and have yet to fire it. I have some 180gr. XTP's loaded with 800-X, Longshot and Blue Dot. From the multiple chat forums on 10mm loading it seems to me that Longshot is the most consistent. Most guys that load 800-X weigh each charge as it has very large flakes and doesn't flow thru meters very well. If I get 1300fps with my longshot load, that will be my hunting load. I have a few other powders to burn up for range loads with Berry's 180gr. plated bullets.

Happy handgunning!

Elk Country[/quote]

Haha yeah typo, .4265. I’m all thumbs with this iPad. My kids make fun of me, no respect these days. You should see me texting with a phone. I like Longshot, just recently started using it for heavies and AA#7 for lighter weight bullets. I don’t try to get maximum velocities out of my reloads anymore, but am always looking at things I haven’t tried. For a long time, up to when Double Tap and Buffalo Bore showed up, a guy had to reload to get out of the 10mm what it was intended to do. But now I use factory for both carry and woods. When in Grizzly country I carry the 460 S&W on the trail or a 45/70 for a camp gun. Not that a 10 won’t do the job, it will, but those two will do it better. I carry the ten while hunting. For me, in the all around semiautomatic platform, nothing tops it all things considered. I’m glad more and more shooters are discovering the ten.