that dry fire was more important than live fire.



They based it on Ingrained reflex, muscle memory , convenience, etc. True or false. I still believe nothing substitutes for rounds downrange.

Dry fire is very valuable.Just sending bullets down range,does not mean everyone of them is a quality shot. 50 well aimed rounds practicing all good handgun shooting techniques is a lot better than 300 rounds blown into the dirt. Dry firing improves those techniques

Spent primers,remains THE Supreme Tutorial.

Hint........................

Dry firing is good practice, but be careful. Negligent discharges can happen when dry firing. Don’t ask!

I "dry fired" a couple times coming out of the doctors office this morning. A lady was passing by and gave me a disgusting look. I didnt think it was loud enough for anyone to hear. I was in an embarrassed embarrassmented humiliation.

The wet fires are the most troublesome.

Inferred.........................

You need both, but most can afford (and fit time in for) lots of dry fire on a daily basis, while they cannot do so for live fire, or not at nearly the same rate.

For a Glock, you really need a dry fire dedicated Glock replica or modified Glock (otherwise you will develop the motor memory for manually re-cocking the gun after every trigger pull), whereas with a double action revolver it's easy to simply insert some snap caps to perfectly duplicate the same double action trigger stroke as with live fire.

To benefit, it needs to be a part of your daily routine, e.g., fifty daily trigger pulls while working on all the fundamentals. I keep my dry fire Glock replica (red, so no confusing a real one for it) in my kitchen drawer, and pull it out to dry fire it at various targets from time to time throughout the day.

In my experience - false.

Dry fire is certainly valuable, and it's worthwhile to do a lot more dry fire than live fire. However, all the dry fire in the world is no substitute for live rounds sent downrange. You can dry fire perfectly but with live ammo still flinch, have poor grip, etc that affects bullet placement on target.

Despite what some guys claim, I don't think it's possible to maintain a high level of pistol shooting proficiency with dry fire alone. I do think it's possible to attain and maintain that high level with live fire alone.

Dry fire is not meant to maintain proficiency and certainly not buy itself.. It is used to establish or correct a good grip, sight picture, trigger squeeze, diagnose shooting problems, and many times work thru the flinch that developed without experiencing recoil or muzzle blast. Many, many times, a lot of people need to go back to the basics because their shooting gets sloppy.They can fix the problem with dry firing, progress to a good 22 handgun and then go back to what they were shooting. It is another tool in the tool box.Not a fix all.

saddlesore - I agree on all that and dry fire is a useful tool as you said, however, some people do insist that dry fire alone is enough. I've heard a number of people online and in person (sorry, I'm not going to go dig up sources) recommend spending time on lots of dry fire instead of going to the range.

Never just alone, by itself. You need to already know how to shoot live fire.

I benefited greatly from intensive dry fire practice on a daily basis back about ten years ago.

My gun club ran a regular match they called the Dirty Harry Match. It was a timed, action style, shooting match, with various stations (stages?) you move to, one after the other, with different tests of your shooting skill (each station involving at least one speed reload), from the draw, using steel targets at various ranges. It was double action revolvers only, .38 Special minimum caliber.

I decided to try out the training routine found in Ed McGivern's classic Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. For a couple of weeks before the match, I dry fired (using exactly the method he laid out) hundreds of strokes per day, concentrating on doing it just right, doing various exercises in the book, soon developing a blister, later becoming a thick callus on my trigger finger.

I was amazed at what a double action shot I became at the end of the two weeks, doing only those dry fire drills. I scored third place, using the bone stock Combat Masterpiece I trained with (many used race guns), despite having a couple of hang ups due to cheap reloads inertia-pulling the bullets out under recoil, jamming up the revolver. Had I used better quality ammo, I would have totally dominated. I practically couldn't miss at any range.

That level of skill, however, only stays with you if you keep up the intense practicing. Let it go, and also goes that high level of skill. However, every day doing fifty careful dry fires would keep your skill up fairly high. Of course you must already know how to shoot live fire, and do it from time to time.

I don't know a single competent shooter that does not dryfire religously. If you carry for self defense there are many elements that need to be combined at speed. Most can be practiced in dryfire. If you video your presentations from concealed you can diagnose wasted motion and other faults. Of course live fire while using a shot timer is essential to confirm and improve efficiency.

If re-cocking your Glock while dryfiring causes you to develop "muscle memory" that results in doing so in real life you are probably not competent to carry a gun at all.


mike r

Motor memory is a real thing. My brother, back in the 1980s, was strictly a bolt action rifle shooter for years. I introduced him to semi-auto rifles. I carefully explained to him how it operated, and that only a trigger pull for each shot was needed. He perfectly understood (his IQ is 145, and he holds an engineering degree and a law degree, so no stupid jokes please), yet, without realizing it, he was racking the action between shots, tossing a live round on the ground each time. I stopped him and asked why he was doing it. He insisted he wasn't. I pointed to all the live rounds on the ground, and only then did he believe me. Even after this, he still did it from time to time during that shooting session, and had to be shown proof that he was doing it.

I guess it is a family trait. When I worked on a commercial range the instructors were expected to be able to demonstrate over 50 different weapons from a handguns to belt feds. Open and closed bolt SMGs, ARs and Aks, full and semi autos, pump and semi auto shotguns. I am sure that there are folks on here that could do the same on demand.


mike r

Having long been familiar with the well-documented phenomenon of motor memory (apparently a new concept to you), I've never trained in a way that would establish it in any but helpful patterns, so I don't know if I'd be more prone to this issue than average. I have no reason for believing so.

Dry firing is invaluable but it's not a substitute for live fire.

The Marine Corps probably has the most refined "zero to hero" program for marksmanship in the world. Dry firing is a huge part of it.

Muscle memory is a real thing but I've never heard of that being a reason to not dry fire. World class competitors do it for hours a day and I don't recall seeing any of them dump a round in the middle of a stage or course of fire.

Intelligent and sharp are two different things.

I think I've been clear that I'm a big advocate for extensive dry fire drilling, so long as it reinforces appropriate (rather than counterproductive) motor memory. Not sure how you got that wrong.

My very best strong hand, unsupported shooting has been done because five times in a row, I was able it convince myself the next shot was going to be a 'click' instead of a bang.

Yep. Same here. Sometimes, when shooting a double action revolver, I only load two or three live rounds, the rest being spent cases. Then I turn the cylinder a few times without looking, then close it, just for this effect.

Motor memory? Muscle memory? Archaic terms misused by the malinformed. Dryfire, when performed correctly, develops and enhances neural pathways through repetition and visualization of perfect performance.

THEY also use to tell us that our 'fine motor skills ' would deteriorate under pressure to the extent that we wouldn't be able to perform certain functions. Old bullschidt lingers in the community of 'gun guys'.



mike r

Yup.

My niece was dry-firing for a couple hours per day at the insistence of her college air rifle coach in addition to her regular practice. All-American shooter.

There are really two components of dry fire.

1-Weapon handling. Practicing draws, reloads, cleaning malfunctions, etc. There's very little to no difference in dry and live fire for those skills.

2-Actual trigger pulling. Not firing live rounds isn't a draw back about dry fire, it's the benefit. In dry fire you can analyze very small pieces of your technique that would be impossible to perceive with recoil. I've found it especially useful in helping me to acquire and refine sight picture and focus during target transitions and when acquiring sights after movement. For stuff like this dry fire is actually much more beneficial than live.

But, but, don't ya know that playing them gun games will get you killed on the street?


mike r

Pretend,ain't ever "real".

Hint.............

Yeah. Anybody here drive mostly manual and then find themselves occasionally starting to go for the clutch pedal or shifter when in an automatic? Similar thing.

As to the question itself I don't think the phrase "more important" can just sit there without context. I think the vast majority of people will find the time to dry fire much more often than they can actually use live fire. (And I hate you if you're one of those people that can actually live fire whenever they want) The ONLY way to truly practice live fire is with live fire. I don't think anyone really disagrees with that. It could possibly be argued that "on balance" if you're someone who cannot avail oneself of actually shooting much then quality trigger time off the range is just about the only way to keep up one's proficiency.

I was gifted one of these for Christmas.

https://mantisx.com/

It's a neat little device that gives you feedback when dry firing (and can actually be used with live fire as well) to let you know how your trigger control is working out. I rather like it and it's fun to have around with people and see who can "outshoot" the others. (which can turn into a drinking game pretty easily...just be sure the live rounds are judiciously separated)

If I had a match tomorrow and was given the option of 100 live rounds or 200 dry reps, I'd take the dry practice every time.

Live rounds help you track sights during recoil and verify what you're doing dry. And what you do dry often produces a better product than live.

But it's not fun, and not what the cool kids do.

I DO have a match coming up (not tomorrow, but the next day), and I'll take the 100 live rounds, thanks. I'll also do a bunch of dry fire, because we can all do both, but no way will I skip live fire under the delusion that dry practice is good enough. It isn't. It's a good tool, but it's not everything.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've done a bit of training and shot a few matches with Ben Stoeger. He's accomplished some pretty amazing things while dry firing nearly exclusively for months at a time. I'd highly recommend his book and a class if you ever have the opportunity.

Whatcha shooting?

I try to shoot almost daily when I'm training, but I dry-fire probably a hundred trigger presses for each live round I send downrange. That also includes several dry presses before I fire one live round at the range.
Bob