Had a crazy traveling end of the week and part of the weekend, anyway, as we were all saying our goodbyes an old Bud gave me a heavy bag of 1000 double crimp grooved 180gr HST bullets for my 40, I later assumed the double rolled on crimp is to help keep the jacket and core together as my col of 1.135" puts both well down into the case.

This morning at daybreak, i started at Hodgdons minimum of 6.5 grains of Lonshot for the 180gr XTP, and worked to a max of 8 grains, the max load out of my P226 ran 1212 fps, puzzled, I went and loaded another max charge of 8 grains, it went 1214 fps, that's some crazy chit, and what I believe to be too fast for the design velocity of that bullet, I'm going to back all remaining loads down to around 1000 fps and call it good, no signs of over pressure, and all velocities had a good climb up with no spike differences.

Question is, has anyone else ran 180's out of their 40's at that speed? and, is the HST a good meat defense bullet?

I remember reading here about some poster that built some crazy fast loads with his 40's, but cant remember who it was, these loads were in new WW brass cases with CCI SPM primers.

Thanks in advance.

The 2 crimp grooves could be there so they can be used in 40s or 10mm.
I have a 357 SWC with 2 crimp grooves, one for 38, the other for 357.
Got them from LAH here, I can't recall the mold number.

Savuti, if either crimp groove on these bullets were used, col's would be much to long for either cartridge, the lower groove is about an eight of an inch up from the bottom of the bullet.

Ya can't use crimp groove for an auto, the cartridge headspaces off the case mouth.

Two grooves in an auto bullet, puzzling. WAG, considering the high velocities with no apparent problems, the grooves are for reducing friction in the barrel & allowing higher velocities at acceptable pressures???

Of course, I've only taper crimped some semi auto rounds, that was due to bullets that didn't fit tight enough to suite me, I have to think they're there for help locking the core and jacket together, no other reason I can come up with, it is a nasty looking bullet, with a monstrous flat bottomed hp hole.

I think it was the member Clarkm who was running the 40 pretty hot.

10-4, Thanks MM, I tried to google the thread but couldn't find it, regardless, thinking 1200 fps is too fast for that bullet, 1K would be perfect for the pistol, bullet design and the shooter.

Gunner,
I was kinda aiming my reply to Saviti. Somehow your post after his didn't show up on my screen.

Core retention is a legit assumption, but 1200 fps with a 180 & no bad things happening is reason to wonder about other uses of two grooves. That's some serious velocity don't you think?

Yeah 180's at 1200 seems like 10mm country.

Some of the warmer 40SW stuff like Underwood has the 180s up to 1100.

Gunzo, okay, I understand now, and damn right, serious speed, and from a book load, albeit for the 180gr XTP, what blew me away was the two fps extreme spread, only a sample of two shots but damn, that's consistent, too bad they're too warm for my purposes.

MM, that's exactly what I did, went to Underwood, BuffaloBore and Double Tap websites and had a look around, none of them push any 180's to 1200 fps in a 40, another red flag to me, that speed is exceedingly unimportant if the bullet penetrates less, only batters the pistol and shooter more.

And iirc all the Glock kabooms I've heard/read about were with 40 S&W's.

I wonder if those bullets weren't meant for the .38/40? Just a thought.............

Old damned old are you?

So you're only about 60fps over the max Hodgdon published, which is 3.5Kpsi under max psi.
Variations do happen. My usual experience is slower than Hodgdon's.

Ka boom in a 40 is a serious issue, use new brass with heavy loads....I have seen two ka booms at idpa matches

Or shoot a properly built .40, like an H&K USP.

3rd gen smiths come to mind too. You couldn't give me a Glock..

9mm HST bullets also have a cannellure . Has nothing to do with seating depth. I'm thinking it's there to help hold the jacket to the core.

LOL, I originally thought 41 Mag, so I weighed and miked em, yup, .400" and 179.9 grains.

Agreed, I saw that, but, still believe 1200 fps will make that bullet penetrate less, lose/lose, have them at 1020 fps with 6.5 grains now, will load some new cases with that charge and see how they run in the pistol.

My tacops P226 will run with any H&K or Glock as far as strength is concerned, it's a tank.

Does anyone have an opinion on HST's as far as a SD, EDC, CW carry bullet? I don't expect it to do well against hard barriers.

As do I with this 40 cal. bullet.

HST's are about as good as it gets for 200 lb varmints. 1200 might be a bit much though.

Run some about a thousand and deconstruct a porker to check for sure. 😽

10-4, Thanks SOTG, I just started doing research on them in another window?/tab? looks like they're thought to be a pretty solid bullet for carry purposes, would be nice to test them on a pig/deer or two, just saw some 200gr Gold Dots too.

I'll use these in my 40, can't beat em for the price, I didn't ask my old Bud where he got them so he didn't have to lie, he now shoots BuffaloBore hardcasts in a 10mm, said he's too damn old and tired to hand load anymore.

Yeah, the HST is my first choice for carry gun defensive use.

Thanks for that MOGC, I saw some expanded 9mm, 40 and 45 cal HST's from bullet tests, that's NOT going to buff out, dang nasty looking sob's.

Guess I have the question, if no one worries about a 180 coming out of a 10mm at 1200+ fps, why would someone worry about it coming out of a .40 S&W if it could be done so safely... Everyone calls this round the "Short&Weak" and suddenly when a great load comes up we start worrying about core separation...

Personally I perfer 155/165 grain bullets for PD in both calibers pushed as fast as they can go and 200-220s for hardcast heavies and skip right over the 180s...

Bob

How long is your barrel? You’re speed in only 54 FPS more than Hogdon’s.

Well let me see:

I couldn't find ANY ammo company loading 180's to 1200 fps in a 40.
I don't have pressure testing equipment.
Have heard a lot about 40 cal Kabooms...................I read caution there.
180's at 1025 in a 40 are not weak to me.
I didn't design that bullet, and saw nowhere it was ever loaded in a 10mm, so it must have been designed for 40 speeds.
Believe it or not, my 140gr Barnes carry loads at 1250 fps have more snap/recoil impulse than these 180gr loads, or the 200gr XTP's at 1040.
I cant skip these bullets, they were free, will find a good use for them.

Hope that helps.

Barrel on this P226 is 4.4"s, I still think the bullet will perform better around 1000 fps, no since shirt buttoning a bullet so it penetrates less, I learned that by shooting a Cape Buffalo in the chest at 30 yards with 30 to 1 alloy, came back home and brewed up my own alloy, went back and shot a bedded Eland bull in the right hip and got 8-9 feet of penetration, never had any interest is hyper speed lightweight bullet bombs, 'cept for varmints.

I've shot 6-7 deer with a 40 using 165 & 180 grain HSTs from G22s and 23s, including a couple that were supposedly injured but bolted for a busy 4 lane when I walked up on them. Those were bang flops with no finisher needed. I also saw full penetration from between the shoulders & out the chest, and across the shoulder shots with the bullet balled up under the skin on the opposite side. The 40 is a damn good pistol and these are about as good as it gets.

That said, I would not be running 180s at 1200+ from my guns.

...are you getting any pressure signs on the brass?

That's the kind of damn good info I've been looking for Sarge, Thank You, i'll take a guess and say your factory 180's were between 950 and 1000 fps too, I'll leave these at 1025 fps and be more than happy to have them.

No Sir, no over pressure signs, just a bit of firing pin swipe, but that pistol does that with any ammo, factory ball or hotter hand loads.

Brass from the chrono shots landed about two feet apart 12 feet off my right shoulder.

Did I miss it, or did someone ask already. What gun are using?

Sig P226 tac-ops 40 S&W.

I get it. Kinda like having a .38 Special load that throws 158 gr. bullets to 1200 fps. That might raise an eyebrow too. No problem from the .357 Magnum but the .38 just isn't supposed to do that.

Yessir, exactly, and then some, most 38 loads have a lot of working room as far as safe pressures, 40's, not so much, it starts at HOT and goes up. I quickly loaded a few more today between the crush, settled perfectly happy at 998 fps with those 180gr HST's, the big Sig shoots oh so soft that way, really liking that pistol the more I fool with it.

Just got off the phone with the Hornady Rep, he states 1000 fps will easily expand the 200gr XTP's, another option in the 40 for a really deep digger, 180 HST's at 998 for an easy effective defense carry load, 200gr XTP's at 1034 fps for pigs, deer, or most anything else up close.

I love the .40 caliber and own a "few" shooters chambered in that caliber.

As a reloader I have tended more toward using Power Pistol to fuel my loads but do have an interest in the Long Shot powder. I am pushing 155 g out of various Sigs and Glocks at a whisper under or at 1300fps and pushing the 180g at 1175fps and loving the accuracy. This is using shooters from Sig P226 to G27 with a KKM barrel in it.

I guess my philosophy, which is working for me, is the combination of speed and accuracy that is maximized. Some of those 40 loads are equal to or a wee bit more than many factory 10mm loads and have dampened my interest in picking up a 10mm but if I reloaded for the 10mm happiness would return.

I did pick up a bunch of 180g HST pulled bullets from RMR bullets and didn't notice any crimp grooves in any of them. Perhaps there is a generation difference between what I bought and what you were given.

The HST menu of calibers comes out looking pretty good in testing for accuracy, expansion, penetration and weight retention and apparently some LE outfits are using their bullets in the .40 they have. I have high regard for the way that HST bullet performs in my reloads as far as accuracy and velocity. I did shoot a medium sized mule deer with those bullets in a Sig P226 and it was a two shot deal and I was not able to find either bullet to see how it performed. That is the end of my field testing and I now carry the HST bullet line in all of my EDC which covers a "few" calibers. Solid bullet.

Good info, Thanks Redhill, you're stepping on the gas nicely with the 180's at 1175, glad to hear they shoot well for you, the factory democrat, read weak, most 10mm loads are a joke, 200's at a solid 1200 fps are what it's all about for good 10mm loads imho, I've been gone for a few days but hope to shoot the four mags of 180gr HST's in my p226 for accuracy check, raining like hell here right now.

I really like the 180gr HST's at 1K fps, very comfortable, next to nil front sight rise.

gunner - maybe you've seen it, but Hodgdon's online data lists ~1150 fps for a 180gr 40 S&W with Longshot; it seems to stand a good 100 fps taller than other powders in that data set if I remember clearly. Depending on the barrel, your 1200 fps may be a little warm but still in the ballpark.

Redhill - don't judge the 10mm by those weak "10mm lite" factory loads; those are intentionally loaded to 40 S&W levels and are 10mm in name only. Full power 10mm loads are head and shoulders above anything the 40 can do, obviously, since the primary difference between the two is case capacity.

Yondering

Bingo on the Buffalo Bore and Corban loadings for all calibers.

I would imagine that their loads for the 10mm are crazy. It would be fun to work up some reloads for a 10mm that are like the BB loadings. One of our sons has a Glock 10mm and I have loaded some 180 HST loads for his shooter but haven't run them across the chrony yet and since I don't have a 10mm I have forgotten the loading that I came up with.

If I want to go heavy heavy its a Ruger Old Vaquero Bisley stainless 44 Mag with a 300g cast with H110 that goes over my chrony at an average of 1377fps. Amazingly effective but after about 5-6 shots the fun disappears.

I know some guys around here in Idaho will use a G20 loaded with the BB 180-200 g. for a lot of fire power in a relatively lighter package when either on horseback or hiking.

Based on what - your imagination?

Boutique ammo makers spend a lot of money on pressure testing - something the typical forum expert does not.

Yondering, yes, Hogdon's website is where I started at 6.5 grs Lonshot, shock at the chrono quickly followed, the 1212 fps with the 180 HST is the reason for this thread, I like lead and copper defense bullets around 1000 fps, a mono is a different story, here's a few examples of what I load for pistol and revolver.

38 Super, 115 Lehigh penetrators, 1400 fps, 125gr Barnes, 1326 fps.
357 mag, 125gr Barnes, 1459 fps, 140gr Barnes, 1400 fps, 158gr hard cast 1396 fps. [hunting]
40 S&W, 140gr Barnes, 1250 fps, 180gr HST, 1000 fps, 200gr XTP, 1031 fps [hunting]
10mm, 140gr Lehigh penetrator, 1564 fps, 200gr XTP, 1200 fps, [defense/hunting]
45 ACP, 185gr Barnes, 1141 fps, 200gr XTP, 1000 fps, 230gr Gold Dot, 966 fps.

I'll still bet the 180 HST's at 1K will hold their shape and penetrate deeper 'with' plenty of expansion than possible overdriven at 1200 fps.

Gunner, I suspect you're right.

Perhaps you missed my meaning in the choice of the word CRAZY. It is also used to indicate amazing, awesome, spectacular, among others.

Based on my imagination? Nope swing and a miss ....again. Based on shooting some of their products and seeing the results over my chronograph.

Typical forum expert ? Nope another swing and miss....you seem to miss a lot. I believe that is 3 strikes and regrettably you are out!!! Bad eyesight or poor comprehension? My "expertise" comes from my background of experience and research. Again Simple.....for most.

I have pulled down some 180 HST 40 caliber ammo in the past to try it in my 10mm. I used a starting load of LONGSHOT since I didn't want to overdrive the bullet. But even the start load is 1225 FPS. I suspect you guys are right about the rings being for weight retention but it's worth mentioning that when I took the 180 HST's down, those grooves were filled with a black tar that I took to be a water proofing solution and maybe to prevent bullet setback as well since it was quite sticky.

I would love someone to give me 1000 rounds of HST, that is a good friend.

Interesting on the groove fill Disseminator, these are clean as a pin, LOL, I'm glad my old Bud got tired of handloading and gave me those bullets too, he's just going to shoot factory ammunition in his hand guns from here on out.