Does any know what Ross's favorite load is/was for the 44 MAGNUM?

From the writing, Mr. Seyfried moved on to the heavy loaded 45 Colt. The last article that I recall mentioning the 44 mag Mr. Seyfried recounted using the classic Keith load of 22 gr. 2400 behind a 240/250 gr. cast SWC.

He referred to his .44 as a boy doing a man’s job in Africa. As penates mentions, he moved on to the .45 Colt as he was underwhelmed.

I know all about his 45 Colt movement. Prior to the movement he carried a 4 inch M29 44 Magnum on his ranch. I am talking about the 44 Magnum.

23grs. H110, 250 Keith, magnum primer.

He stated "pressure lower and velocity higher than the original".

Yep

Unfortunately, he, like many others, abandoned the .44Mag before there were any decent heavy bullets or data available. Everything "claimed" that the .45Colt will do better, the .44 will beat by 50-100fps.

The 45 Colt wasn't mentioned in the original post but will the 44 Mag beat a 45 Colt in a full sized 5 shot cylinder? Lets say with a 340 grain bullet? What load would you use in a 44 mag with a six chamber cylinder that would beat the 45 Colt by 50 to 100 FPS?

Only at five-shot levels does the .45 begin to pull away but the difference is just as negligible.

Please show me some examples of this. In all seriousness I would like to know of this.

In an effort not to re-litigate this tired argument, merely running the .45 Colt up to the .44Mag’s SAAMI max of 36,000 psi, with same weight bullets will result in a good 150 - 200 fps velocity advantage over the .44 Mag. It’s just physics. I know some will cite load data that stops at about 30,000 psi for “Ruger-only” loads, but for a true apple to apple comparison, you have to run the same pressures. I had some 335 grain .45 Colt loads pressure tested at 36,000 psi and out of a real loose (had a large cylinder gap) SRH in .454, they would consistently run over 1,400 fps. This will be my first and last post on the topic in this thread.

Ross was using a heavy SSK and two NEI Keith bullets, 315 and 325 grains in the 44 Mag, at the time in Africa. He detested the SSK, a pointy affair.

By all accounts, his five shot Seville would exceed a factory made 44 by a wide margin and did.

Loaded to the same pressure with the same weight bullet with the same nose shape, the 44 will have the potential to penetrate better due to less displacement and greater SD, while the 45 Colt will have more displacement and greater velocity, due to more powder capacity, the same way a 44 can kick a 250 faster than a 41 can, at the same pressure...

This is consistent with the .444/.45-70 argument. The larger bore diameter will allow the same weight bullet to be pushed at lower pressure, or higher velocity at the same pressure.

HawkI has a point about SD.

Do the .460&.500 Smith magnums settle the .44/.45 issue? Bigger heavier hammers but faster bullets.

I can't comment on really large game; between .61 and .72 caliber on deer, there isn't any difference I've noticed. Both break bone and make fairly large holes, the .72 obviously are notably larger, but don't seem to kill any quicker. Heat treated .510's rate right up there and deer sized critters are butter from one end to the other, if they are employed.

I have seen notable differences in calibers from .355 to .45 caliber on the same animals. In my experience, too small of a hole takes a bit more time before the animal realizes its done. A large enough hole, and the results really aren't that different. Depending on bullet design with solids, for deer sized stuff, that "large enough" is around .40 caliber.

Frontal area rules the handgun/solids world and velocity, noise, racket and recoil is a way distant second to applying that area with a decent SD to vital areas.

One would find an "anemic" 44 Special loaded with a good bullet/design miles ahead of a 180 Buffalo Bore in .357, at least from what I've seen with primarily deer, with shots through the lung/heart area.

On larger animals, I can only speculate that the larger frontal areas perform better, but perhaps not in a linear fashion.

There is a lot of myth mixed in whenever the .45 Colt is cited as operating at a lower pressure or somehow getting more for less (in defiance of Newton's 3rd law) compared to a .44 Mag. The PSI is only one factor in the equation, the area of the cartridge case is another. Simply put the .45 Colt has a larger case, more square inches, so at the same PSI as a .44 Mag the total pressure exerted on the cylinder and frame will be higher.

Two of the common aspects are bolt thrust, which is the rearward force, and hoop stress, which is the radial force exerted on the cylinder or barrel. At 36,000 PSI the bolt thrust of a .44 Mag is 5,204 lbs, a .45 Colt is 5,751 lbs. Hoop stress is affected the same way - more area means more pressure.

I simplified the bolt thrust calculation by using the bullet diameter and not the internal bearing area of the case.

The point is that Ross and Linebaugh did their comparisons +30yrs ago and everyone operates as if nothing has changed. Seyfried references a 325gr .45 at over 1300fps and that is also easily done with the .44Mag.

In six shot Ruger single actions, it is not an apples to apples comparison to run the .45Colt at .44Mag pressures, because the guns are not equally strong. This is above accepted maximums and standard practices set forth by Linebaugh and a dozen data sources. The .45's whole claim to fame is that the guns are 80% as strong as comparable .44's, which makes it safe to run at double standard SAAMI pressure. IMHO, this is changing the rules so your favorite team wins and there is no readily available 36,000psi/40,000CUP .45Colt data anyway.

Fact is, with the data we have available today, the .44Mag maintains a 50-100fps advantage up to 355/360gr bullets. Plus the .44 bullets penetrate a little better. Depending on who's making the bullet, it may or may not have an appreciably larger meplat. This is not made up or flying by the seat of the pants data, it comes from Hodgdon. This is an inconvenient truth for some.

If the two cartridges are run at 50,000psi in appropriate guns, then and only then does the .45 achieves a 100fps advantage. Also not made up, we have 50,000psi data for both cartridges.

Horsefeathers. The 45 Colt is magic... almost as magic as the modern 9mm.

According to Hodgdon data, the 44 Mag runs a 210 XTP a little faster at a little less pressure than the 41 Magnum, even with a shorter barrel. This holds true as bullet weights go up. 41 fans don't get butthurt over that.

What hobbles some (apparently) is that any stock 45 Ruger can be run right up with a 44 Mag for speed (because that's how interior ballistics work) as the same stock Ruger in 44, never mind the 41 Mag comparisons. No matter how you slice it, a 45 Colt at 1,300 with a 300 whatever bullet runs at less pressure driven the same from a 44.

Maybe you should contact Ross Seyfried and tell him he's full of [bleep]. It seems that's your beef here.

On deer sized game, there is very little difference between the two. On the really large animals, Ross Seyfried isn't the only one who perceives a difference between them.
The only real way to hash it out (for yourself or any audience you are trying to garner), is to actually poke enough stuff and advertise it to the degree Ross and Linebaugh did and convince everyone their full of [bleep]...

Quite frankly a 45 ACP/AR versus the 44 Special would be more entertaining...

Im not sure i understand. If both are run at the same pressure with same weight bullet, At 36k psi the 45 colt runs faster, it does so at 50k psi. It will run faster at 30k psi as well, in fact it will run faster at every psi if they are the same. Im not interested in subjective pressure limitations from linebaugh or anyone for that matter. That said, a 44 has a distinct advantage in over the shelf ammo and that may be good enough for most. Advantage 44. When ruger only loads are compared from boutique manufacturers, they run basically even. Look at doubletaps barnes loads for the best apples to apples comparison. When loaded there theyre even. When loaded up to potential, the edge goes to the 45 colt. The best bullets go to the 45 colt just because of the fact the 454 exists and the bullets made to take that beating are made tougher than 44 mag bullets. The 45 swift aframes and barnes are just thicker and tougher. So if ya load those and run to maximum then i give the edge to the 45 colt but id never do that because the 454 does exist and ill just use that if thats the road im traveling as it outpaces the 45 colt by as much as the 45 will outpace the 44. That said id never use the bullets ross used in the 44 mag or the 45 colt with the 44 mag pointy small meplated hardcasts being particularly worthless.

The 44 is my favorite caliber but it will not out do the 45, Ross knew this then & it's still true today. Use all the "apple" comparisons you want, then call Ross Seyfried & tell him he's wrong, he would love to hear from you.

Dick

Does anyone have any evidence, outside of Alaska and Africa where there is a difference in killing ability that made much difference?

Seyfried is the gunwriter I respect the most. I don't have a "beef" with Seyfried or Linebaugh. What they wrote, with regards to .44Mag and .45Colt comparisons is simply outdated. Things have changed significantly in the +30yrs since they wrote that stuff but no one seems to have noticed. The problem is that MANY opinions are based on what they wrote. Mine used to be as well. Hell, I grew up reading Seyfried and Taffin, starting as a 12yr old who bought his first gun magazines in 1986. So I literally grew up believing all the same stuff about the .45Colt. "Same/better performance at less pressure", it slings heavier bullets, less recoil and all that. I started out with the .44Mag because I was stuck with factory ammo. When I finally did get my first Ruger .45 and fired that first shot of "Ruger only" handloads, I detected the faint smell of bullshit. Sure, it performed great but the notion of less recoil and muzzle blast was instantly deflated. No matter, I went on enjoying both cartridges and had my first custom .45Colt built about 20yrs ago.

Then Hodgdon published their heavy bullet data for the .44Mag. I studied it intently and realized that it actually conflicted with what so many believed, myself included. I also knew that handloading data is developed in test barrels and that their results are often not congruent with the real world of real sixguns. So I bought a chronograph and ordered every bullet in Hodgdon's data for BOTH cartridges to see for myself. I had unknowingly had the perfect pair of sixguns built for this test. A Bisley Vaquero with S&W-style adjustable sights and a Super Blackhawk converted to Bisley, both 4 5/8" and both built by David Clements, so the guns were as close as possible. I compared Hodgdon's data to that provided by Linebaugh and others to be sure I was going to use top loads for both cartridges. The results were clear, even if some do not want to accept it. The .44Mag retained a 50-100fps advantage across the board, with all bullet weights. From 300gr to 355/360gr.

Then I started to hear the crap about bullet diameter and always conceded on that point. Until Whitworth asked me to write the piece on this very subject for his latest book. It was in researching for this that I found that meplat diameter is not consistent among commercial bullets. That despite the consistent overall bullet diameters, meplats were almost always the same between .44 and .45 LFN's. WFN's were all over the place. Some were the same. Some were as much as .015" larger for the .45, some only .005" larger. In penetration testing, the .44 consistently out-penetrated the .45Colt. Not by enough to matter but a measurable difference. My SIMTEST results were confirmed in wet newsprint by Michael McCourry of B&M cartridge fame. The Beartooth 330gr .44 LFN beat them all.

I've never detected a bit of difference in recoil with comparable loads, in nearly identical guns. It's a strange thing that pressure is not part of any formula that calculates recoil. However, powder mass is and for this reason, the .45 will always calculate higher. To me the recoil aspect is wishful thinking more than anything. As is the idea that operating at 8000psi less pressure is actually meaningful.

Linebaugh's pressure limitations are not subjective. They are actually quite scientific but they are specific to six-shot large frame single actions. He found out at what point BOTH guns have catastrophic failures (~60 and ~80,000psi) and the accepted maximums allow for a 100% safety margin. If you want to eat into it by running them at the same pressure, you're on your own.

The Redhawk and Super Redhawk are stronger guns and that is why both cartridges are loaded to 50,000psi in them. Where the .45 pulls away from the .44, due to its greater case capacity. This should not be a surprise.

Contrary to popular opinion, I am unemotional about this. I had no hidden agenda. Actually, I love them both cartridges and didn't set forth to prove anything one way or another. I was looking for the truth and IMHO, I found it. That there is not a lick of practical difference between the two. Certainly nothing that is worth arguing over. Now, if anyone here has data from actual testing that conflicts with my findings, please offer it up. Because so far all I've EVER heard are unsupported opinions because I gored someone's sacred goat. The Hodgdon and Linebaugh data is all right there. I didn't make this stuff up.

Since Ross Seyfried keeps getting mentioned and Dick referenced Handloader #205 in our recent PM exchange as if I had never read it, I retrieved my copy and read it again. The comical part of this is that he begins by describing his pre-conceived notions about the .45Colt and how Linebaugh was contradicting what he "knew" about it from 20yrs prior. Things he learned from reading Elmer Keith, particularly regarding the weak case myth. That Linebaugh effectively challenged his existing beliefs and changed his mind. With data. That sounds vaguely familiar. Except I didn't have to develop this .44 data, Hodgdon did that. All I did was follow directions and write about the results.

Nowhere does it list specific .44 bullets or loads. It's mostly about the .45Colt and he references Hodgdon data extensively. Mind you, this is Hodgdon #26 that was printed in 1992. So for those of you who have your mind made up about this because of something Seyfried wrote, your belief is based on information that was published the year I graduated high school, 27yrs ago. He references 300gr at 1300fps loads in both chamberings and then points out the pressure difference. I don't have Hodgdon #26 but just ordered it from Ebay. I'm fairly certain that the 300gr load he references is either jacketed or an outdated cast bullet. Long before they developed the current heavy bullet data. From there he goes on to a 325gr LFN at 1275fps in a 7½" .45. My testing confirms this with 1240fps out of my 4 5/8" Ruger. The .44Mag did 1280fps with a 320gr. In his table, Seyfried references a 350gr at 1050fps out of the .45Colt. Using the Hodgdon data, I tested the 360gr at 1060fps. In the same Hodgdon data, the .44Mag managed a 355gr WLN at 1130fps. Apparently using better bullets out of the .44 makes quite the difference.

Even when we move up to 50,000psi loads, things are interesting. Seyfried's table shows a 360gr over 1400fps. We know that both Pearce's data and the Buffalo Bore 340gr +P+ are well over 1400fps. Ironically enough this is the same velocity rating as their 360gr .454 load. Pearce shows a 360gr .45 at 1450fps and a 340gr .44 at 1405fps. I'm about to start testing the 355gr WLN loaded long and heavy in a long cylinder Ruger .44Mag and expect to see similar results.

Does anyone have any actual data to contradict this?

Here's a simplified overview of the current Hodgdon data.

Funny thing is, dick casull did that with a 45 colt decades earlier but i digress.

Glock doesn't make one in that caliber.

Who said anything about a GLOCK?

Your data is the point in its entirety.


Post the pressures of the Hodgdon data, load the 45 to the same SPEEDS on the chronograph, viola....its going to be greater pressure than Hodgdon lists, but it will always be LESS than the 44's 38-39,000 CUP, but right in the 32,000 CUP area of safety Brian Pearce has loaded at, numerous times, and right in line with Buffalo Bore and specialty loads not designated for the Redhawk.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/45rho+ptech.html

So? What does that matter? What does less pressure gain you?

At 45,000psi. And??? It's comical how pressure is used as an argument, as long as it fits the narrative.

It's cool, I'm about to find out what the 405gr does in the .44Mag, loaded long and to high pressure.

Here's their 330gr .44 load that is right at the original industry maximum for the cartridge of 43,500CUP. Running 160fps over that possible in a six-shot .45.

https://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerheadplusp.html

The problem is and was, folks comparing optimized .45 loads to run-of-the-mill, old tech .44 loads. In reality, the two are ballistic twins, differing only slightly here and there. What the .44 does with more pressure, the .45 does with more powder. Where the .44 penetrates deeper, the .45 has a slightly larger meplat (sometimes). The difference is a wash.

Exactly what Seyfried has stated "you get the horsepower, without the pressure".

He places frontal area above differences in speed. He favors the 44 Special over the 41, for the same exact reasons; that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with him, but he has a pretty good handle on the large bore revolvers over most people.

That's entirely subjective of whether it does or doesn't matter to you. It obviously doesn't for you and no one is going to make you care, just like you're probably not going to get Ross to concede his findings on the matter....

Since Garrett was brought up, let's look at their 365gr .45Colt load. Now this one is 35,000psi, so nearly the same pressure as the .44Mag loads that hover around 38,000CUP.

Garrett 365gr .45 = 1250fps in a 7.5" Ruger - 35,000psi
Handloaded 355gr .44 = 1245fps in a 7.5" Ruger - 38,000CUP.

Except the 355gr .44 has a larger meplat, 335" vs .340".

Do you really want to argue that there is some invisible, magic at work that somehow makes the .45 better? I don't and I probably have more .45's than most diehard .45 fans.

I read that as 25 fps, not 160, and last time I checked, the Redhawk was a 6 shot 45.

Talk about narratives....

Without a tangible benefit, it's an empty point.

Seyfried has to concede nothing. He wrote of the facts as he had them, when he had them. The concession comes today, that some folks might have to accept that things are not as they were. Just as Seyfried did with his encounter with Linebaugh. These things evolve.

In the field and especially with cast bullets, velocity is overrated but in an academic discussion, it is a measure of "performance". Frontal area, or more specifically, meplat diameter is the operative dimension. Here we see it is also not as black & white as presumed. As I said, from some casters, LFN's are the same, with other examples the difference is as small as .005". You have to look at individual bullets.

330gr Hammerhead at 1400fps versus a 325gr LFN at 1240fps out of the .45. Point being that the Hammerhead is technically a standard pressure .44Mag load.

Standard pressure, but oddly recommended ONLY in the same guns as the 45....or did you even bother to look at your own links?

Due to LENGTH. There are no "Ruger only" (~32,000psi) .45 loads that are loaded long to take advantage of the Redhawk's cylinder for direct comparison. Those are all also 45-55,000psi.

Does it look like there's really enough difference to argue about?

Not for me, it isn't.

If I want to load up some WFN's, WLN's, LFN's or Keiths that make the biggest holes in critters in a decently packable run of the mill gun, they're all in 45 caliber moulds, not in 44, of which I have a few of those too.....

We didn't have church last night and I have just got my new shop nearly ready so in light of this conversation, I spent the afternoon experimenting. All the Beartooth bullets I've been using have dual crimp grooves but the published Hodgdon data uses the top groove and is standard pressure. Loading the 330gr LFN, 355gr WLN and 405gr WLN over H110 at 100% load density I had the following results. I also chronographed the 340gr .44 and 360gr .454 Buffalo Bore loads. Both of which were VERY close to the Pearce 50,000psi .44/.45 data. Loads were fired from 7½" Super Redhawks.

330gr at 1442fps
340gr at 1401fps (Pearce 1405fps)
355gr at 1346fps
405gr at 1160fps

Compare these to the numbers from Pearce's "Redhawk only" .45Colt data:

335gr at 1511fps
360gr at 1433fps (Pearce 1450fps)
400gr at 1314fps

Which pretty much confirms what I said earlier. That only when you reach the absolute potential of both cartridges and load the .45Colt beyond "Ruger only" levels, does the .45 pull ahead.

Buffalo bore loads those 454’s to lower pressures. Running full bore i can run 340’s to 1750 fps. That said, at the same pressure and bullet weight the 45 will always be faster at all pressure levels. How much it matters is a debate we can have, but to imply the 45 isnt faster as stated above is just false. To say the 44 shoots faster requires a higher pressure. So be it. The buffalo bore 340 load is at over 50k psi. At 50k psi the 454 and 45 colt will both be faster because they are larger cases. Its physics and nothing changes this. EVER. The 44 has its advantages. Faster at the same pressure isnt one if them.

We chronyd a 36kpsi specially tested at loaded 45 colt 335gr load and it was mid 1400’s out of a srh and over 1515fps out of a fa83. Didnt require a special bullet that has a long nose to not take up case capacity like the buffalo bore srh only load.

You're arguing against points I never made. It should be painfully obvious that if bullet weight and pressure are the same, the cartridge with the greater case capacity wins. I said that and yesterday's testing proved it. However, that difference in pressure is not meaningless. As I also said, what the .44 does with a little more pressure, the .45 does with a little more powder. Also physics. The net result is same/same.

I know the Buffalo Bore .454 is loaded to lower pressure, it's also in the 50,000psi range. It's identical to Pearce's 50,000psi .45Colt data. That's the only reason I even bring up the .454, because the Buffalo Bore 360gr load is the same pressure as their .44 load and "Redhawk only" .45Colt loads. That was the point.

The unavoidable point that some seem to be trying to circumvent, is that the two cartridges can only be run at the same pressure in certain guns. The whole premise behind this is Linebaugh's testing which proved the large frame single action .45's were 80% as strong as the .44's. Which is why they are run at 80% the pressure. So that both cartridges operate at a 100% safety margin. You can't overload the .45 and compare it to standard pressure .44Mag and declare it the winner, any more than you can compare standard pressure .44Mag to standard pressure .45Colt and declare it the winner. There is no 36,000psi data anyway, so that example is purely academic with no practical application. In guns where the pressures can be the same, such as the FA 83, BFR or Redhawk/Super Redhawk, the .45 takes the lead. As I have also been saying for years. Yesterday's testing is further proof. Bullets in the 400gr range it becomes more obvious that the .45's case capacity is giving it a considerable edge. The .45 takes 4.0gr more powder than the .44.

According to Pearce's data, a 335gr over 26.0gr H110 for 1500fps is 50,000psi, not 36,000. Which coincides with Lee Martn's five-shot data, only half a grain higher at 26.5. How do you know that load was 36,000psi? What was the powder charge?

http://singleactions.com/FiveShot45Colts4.html

The Hodgdon .454 data shows the same 26.0gr charge with a greater OAL at 42,000CUP.

It was tested and loaded by an ammo manufacturer. Specifically for this purpose. Secondly, a little side note is ive used those 360 gr buffalo bore loads and 1) they chronograph significantly higher and almost always break 1500 fps, handily and 2) i am way more interested in what and who i trust as to pressure levels and sometimes i dont necessarily trust pressure from authors unless i know how they got their data. The blackhawk will run 36k psi all day long. Not a problem. Never has been and never will be. Just not sure where the 44 mag is equal or getting an advantage. If you said according to otc loads or a specific load data then that would be accurate but what max is saying is accurate.

Bah, .280 beats .270, 6mm beats .243.

Like I said, I chronographed the Buffalo Bore .454 load at 1433fps out of a 7.5" Ruger. I can do the same out of a 7.5" FA if you like. I can also verify with another chronograph if necessary.

Everything I have points to a 335gr WLN at 1500fps being charged at 26.0-26.5gr H110 and a 50,000psi load. Even Hodgdon's data shows 26.0gr in .454 cases at 42,000CUP. There's no way in hell you're gaining 300fps with only 6000psi.

I never said the .45 Blackhawk wouldn't run at 36,000psi. However, THERE IS NO DATA and it's not an apples to apples comparison to eat into the .45's safety margin but not the .44's. You've eaten your 100% safety margin down to 60%. That's only a fair comparison if you HAVE to believe the .45 is so much better. It's only a fair to compare them in guns t hat can be run at the same pressure with the same margin of safety and in those guns, I have always conceded that the .45 gains the edge.

The Buffalo Bore 360gr load averaged 1495fps out of my 7.5" FA. Not sure how relevant this is because I always try to minimize variables. Hence comparing loads in stock Rugers. In this case, a pair of 7.5" Super Redhawks. FA's are always going to clock higher velocities and the results are less directly comparable.

I'm not sure what you mean about not referencing specific loads. I have been VERY specific in my posts. Down to the load. I'm just not going to post my powder charges for the overloaded .44's.

As I've said many times, the reference to 36,000psi .45 loads is irrelevant. The loads are not comparable and there is no available data anywhere. It's cheating to get the results you want. Further, the idea that one can achieve 1500fps with a 335gr at 36,000psi is HIGHLY suspect. I see nothing to support it and everything points to that load being 50,000psi. Linebaugh and Seyfried point to a bullet that weight at that velocity being a five-shot load in the +50,000psi range.

I can test the Pearce data in the SRH so we have data off the same chronograph. I have the 335's and Oregon Trail 360's he used. He got his best results with the 360gr and Enforcer. I was going to pick up a can this afternoon but my truck wasn't ready. 300MP was second fastest and H110 third. I can try all three.

And the .460 does 2250fps with Hornadys 200. Shoots .45s&.454s too. I dont think we can have too many choices in sixguns though.

They will all work if shots are placed perfectly. To the OP, i would get a max 280 aframe load and use it and not honestly worry about ross’ initial 44 mag loads. He wrote a very interesting article on aframes.

I thank you for your concern. But my question was: "Does any know what Ross's favorite load is/was for the 44 MAGNUM?" I knew it was the 250 "Keith" (if there is a Keith nowadays) and H110 with the CCI350 mag primer but forgot whether it was 23.0 grains or 23.5 grains. Don't really care about the Swift bullets at this time. Don't really care about the 45 Colt and its potential or its nonpotential at this time.
Not asking whether he moved on to bigger things as I am well familiar with Mr Seyfried and his writings over the years.
I asked the question I asked because I asked it because of the above reason.
Again Thank You one and all for the journey on ballistics, bullets etc..

My bad, i think it was 8 grs of h110 over a 180gr lfn with a small meplat.

You are right.

I'd love to know the powder charge for this magical 36,000psi, 335gr at 1500fps load and who tested it. It seems to be the basis of many of our arguments and it smells fishy to me.




Exactly! From Linebaugh:

"I won't go into great detail but a 45 Colt at 32,000 CUP chamber pressure exerts just under 3 tons of pressure on the back of the frame. A .44 magnum at 40,000 CUP chamber pressure exerts just over 3 tons of pressure on the back of the frame. Basically the same."

Which is why it's important, if you're comparing the two in six shot Ruger single actions, that you compare "Ruger only" loads to standard pressure .44Mag. If you throw that out the window and compare t hem at the same pressure, just so the .45 wins, what have you accomplished? Nothing. It's a straw man argument. You're claiming that with non-existent data that is 30% beyond accepted maximums, the .45 has an advantage. That's like saying my Charger is faster than a Corvette and completely ignoring the fact that it takes a shot of nitrous to do it.



You did ask.

that was NOT my first post. It was turned into a 44 Mag verses a 45 Colt ordeal. Then I asked the question. Still my original question hand NOTHING to do with a 45 Colt in any form. Only after the 45 Colt debacle came up
If most including me would stay on the topic of most post sthings would be better..

Nobody cares. Discussions go where they go. Especially here, where there are basically no rules. You should know, any other forum would've banned you and half the rest long ago.

That is true. But still my original question had nothing to do with a 45 Colt. It was about the Ross Seyfried 44 Magnum load. How simple it would have been for that question to have been answered without all the 45 colt drivel.

SD is a bs number.

If you can shoot a heavy enough bullet out of the 45 to get consistent exits, the larger diameter 45 bullet will create a larger wound channel and has the speed advantage Max cited which further puts the favor towards the 45.

The 44 is a good round, the 45 is simply better. Same as the 475 trumps the 45, and the 50/500 is the king. If you can handle the recoil, the bigger guns are decisively better tools for the biggest toughest game.

Exactly

And they don’t have the membership are the amount of participation of the “fire”

Do you think the Hodgdon data is made up? Do you think the test results I've presented are wrong or did you just not even read it? If you read it and do not believe it is wrong, please point to where that data shows an advantage to the .45Colt.

You can't preach heavy bullets and state that SD is "BS". SD is simply a number used to determine "how heavy" for caliber a given bullet is. Useful in comparing one caliber to another. It is a contributing factor in penetration.

I have shown that the .45 only has a speed advantage at 50,000psi.

The .45 only creates a larger wound channel if the meplat is larger. As I've said countless times, in commercial bullets that is not a given. If the meplat is the same, all the larger ass behind it is going to do is create drag. Which is why a .44 LFN with a .300" meplat penetrates better than a .45 LFN with a .300" meplat. Do you really think a .005-.010" larger meplat makes an appreciable difference?

The 45 is not a step up, it is a lateral move. You have bullets the same weight, traveling similar velocities. The .44 penetrates a little better, the .45 is 'sometimes' a little larger.

The .475 is a significant step up. It's a step up in diameter, bullet weight and pressure/velocity.

Come at me with actual data. Not 30yr old butthurt opinion.

And a heavier 45 bullet will have a higher sectional density than its lighter counterpart that may not exit. To equal a 300 grain .429 bullet in SD, you'll have to go a little heavier to equal it in .452, .458, whatever bore. SD's are 232 vs. 212 respectively, You'll have to go with a 330 grain .45 to get the SD equal.

Assuming conventional bullets and all being equal (velocity, bullet type, etc.), a 300 grain .429 has the potential to penetrate more than a .452 projectile. Minor as the difference is, the *potential* exists.

I would much rather look at bullet construction as a true indicator. A 300 grain.429 LBT WFN will out penetrate a 300 grain .430 XTP. And so on.

SD is just part of what I'll look at, but it does bear consideration.

Exactly.

I said I wasn't getting dragged back into this, but I must say the following.

I have shown that with same weight bullets, the .45 will outpace the .44 when pressures are equal. It doesn't take 50,000 psi for that advantage to show up. I had ammo pressure tested for this very reason, and the .45 with a 335 grain bullet at 36,000 psi runs OVER 1,400 fps in every gun we've chronographed them through. It's just physics.

Now I'm seriously staying out of this. Seriously.

True but irrelevant. It's absolutely true that if you run both cartridges at the same pressure, the .45 will be faster because it's using more powder and has a greater surface area. That is an obvious given and it's why the .45 is faster at 50,000psi. However, it is completely irrelevant in the context of six-shot Ruger single actions. First, there is no 36,000psi data. Second, if there was, it represents an overload for a six-shot single action by ANY accepted standard that reduces the safety margin from 100% to 60% and would only be safe in guns that are good to 50,000psi. In order for the results to be comparable, we'd have to run the .44Mag at 48,000psi. Which means we'd be running our Super Blackhawks at "Redhawk only" levels and I don't think that's such a good idea. At which point the .45 Kool Aid drinkers will respond by running the .45 at the same pressure, which is a measly 12,000psi below that where the gun turns into a hand grenade. Therefore, in the real world (not the abstract), where we like to have comparable safety margins closer to 100%, only in appropriate guns such as Redhawks, Super Redhawks, BFR's, FA's, Dan Wessons, etc. at 50,000psi does the .45 gain an advantage. I think I've always said that.

Closed minds containing 30yr old opinions need not apply.

Do those 30 year old opinions include the so-called safety margins of stock Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawks?

No, you will be back to this thread in a while. The "BIG SHOWS" love to show the "LITTLE SHOWS" their knowledge.

And as for you, the “No Show” will continue hurling crap at everyone but you and bfrshooter can have fun hanging out together since you are basically yin yang. One spouts bs credentials and one has none but tries to keep up the mystery.

So says the joystick man of the internet. The spin man of forums.

Enlighten me, wise one, what is a joystick man. Seems like maybe something you have intimate experience with. Explain to the uninitiated.

I think Jim assumes everyone sits at home playing with their pecker all day long.....like he does.

Just exactly what I said. Your MO is like most mini gods on the internet. Anything else big man? Play with yourself some more then post some more.

Haha, i have eight kiddos. I know how to play..........and shoot and teach shooting. Not just bloviate about my pseudo tough guy knowledge.

Looking at Hogdon’s data on the internet the 44 mag with a 325 grain .430 diameter with 20 grains H-110 give a velocity of1264 FPS at 30,800 CUP with a barrel length of 8.275”

The 45 colt with a 325 grain bullet .452 diameter has a velocity of 1266 FPS with 24 grains H-110 at 27,400 CUP with. 7.250” barrel

Shorter barrel Less presser for the 45, exactly what Ross and John Linebaugh said.

An internal ballistics rule states that fir every 10% in case capacity at the safe pressure at 2 1/2% increase in velocity

You guys keep doing only half the math. The .44 Mag load generates 4,473 ft/lbs of bolt thrust and the .45 Colt load 4,397 ft/lbs - essentially the same. That is the stress the frame subjected to: PSI • Cross Sectional Area. Factor in the increase in hoop (radial) stress in the cylinder, which is also greater due to the greater surface area of the .45 Colt, and there is no practical difference.

John Linebaugh also said: "Case head thrust is CHAMBER PRESSURE x THE SURFACE AREA OF THE DIAMETER OF THE REAR OF THE CHAMBER. I won't go into great detail but a 45 Colt at 32,000 CUP chamber pressure exerts just under 3 tons of pressure on the back of the frame. A .44 magnum at 40,000 CUP chamber pressure exerts just over 3 tons of pressure on the back of the frame. Basically the same."

Although Mr. Linebaugh doesn't discuss it, the same physics applies to the cylinder due to the larger surface area of the .45 Colt case.

There is no free lunch.

No, the Hodgdon data isn't made up. As JWP shows with just one load (look at 335 and 355/360 data as well), when the pressures are fairly close (27,000-29,000 for the 45, 29,000-31,000 CUP), the 45 is right there. Run same pressure along with same barrel length and now 50-100 fps the other way happens and we're not even at 50,000 psi..

You and I agree on SD. SD is important in regards to solids; it helps in lengthwise penetration and the speed the projectile trucks through resistance.

Meplats is where I diverge a bit. I believe this has been "Veral Smithed" a bit too much. I give you the 358 LBT OGW. It's meplat exceeds that of my lowly H&G 503 (265gr. Keith). Of course its meplat is larger than the famed 44 LFN, but that is another story..

The meplat on that 38 bullet in no way makes it create holes in hide, muscle or soft organs like that 44 Keith bullet, no matter how fast its driven over the 44. That isn't conjecture.
Maybe it outshines it in pure jelly, but on game it has never been the case, nor the 180 FN.

Which is why I think the 45 is to the 44 as the 480/475 is to the 45...maybe that isn't the ass dragging.

No, because they only come in cartoonish oversized novelty guns.

But this is a straw man argument. As I've said multiple times, it is a given than when compared at the same pressure, the .45 will produce more velocity because it's using more powder. The problem is the application of that concept. You can't run them at identical pressure because the .45's are only 80% as strong as the .44's. That's only a valid comparison in guns which can be run at the same pressure. Such as the Redhawk, Super Redhawk, Dan Wesson, FA, etc.. In which case they can both be run at 50,000psi.



But you're comparing two very dissimilar bullets and we get into the discussion about what role the SWC's shoulder plays. I'm comparing VERY similar bullets. We are really splitting hairs here with .44's and .45's which may only differ 0.005".



That's a popular notion but I don't agree with it at all. The .45 is a slight yet arguable step up in diameter, a step down in pressure, a step down in SD and a lateral move in mass.

The .475 is a significant step up in every category. You're going from 360's at 1100fps and 32,000psi; to 430's at 1350fps and 50,000psi with a meplat over .400".

The .500 is a step up in diameter only.

IMHO, ALL these cartridges do their best work at 50,000psi.

Depends which 45 you speak of as well as the same diameter increase from .429 to .452 is a higher percentage up versus .452 to .475. A cartridges ability to handle a higher pressure is an asset rather than a detraction imho.

A 10% increase in capacity in the same caliber will result in only a 2 1/2% in velocity at the same pressure. The more powder arguement is the straw man.

JOG bolt thrust is not the topic and it only exerts force rearward on the revolver pressure is equal in all directions at once.

Plus the 45 has a + or- 1” shorter barrel

In my view bolt thrust and hoop stress ("all directions") are the only topics where pressure matters. There is no reason to even mention PSI except in the context of the revolver's design and strength, and even then PSI as a stand-alone measurement is meaningless. Otherwise it's tough to explain why a standard .45 Colt (14,000 PSI) revolver has to be stronger than a .22 LR (24,000 PSI).

That's another abstract argument. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It is a fact that the .45 uses more powder. Whether it's essentially duplicating .44 performance at "Ruger only" levels or exceeding it at 50,000psi. Case capacity is the whole reason how it's able to do what it does.

BACKthrust is very important in determining the strength of the .45 compared to the .44. As Linebaugh states in his own writing:

"When a firearm is fired there is pressure on the base of the bullet to propel it out the barrel. There is an equal rearward thrust against the case head and thus transferred onto the action of the firearm. This is known as CASE HEAD THRUST. Case head thrust is CHAMBER PRESSURE x THE SURFACE AREA OF THE DIAMETER OF THE REAR OF THE CHAMBER. I won't go into great detail but a 45 Colt at 32,000 CUP chamber pressure exerts just under 3 tons of pressure on the back of the frame. A .44 magnum at 40,000 CUP chamber pressure exerts just over 3 tons of pressure on the back of the frame. Basically the same."

You can't run the .45 at a higher pressure without dramatically changing the whole foundation of the argument. As I said, you're eating into the .45's safety margin yet leaving the .44 at 100%. That might win the argument but you lose if the goal is an unbiased, scientific test.



Which is why I used identical guns in all my tests.



An increase of 0.022" in bullet diameter is meaningless if the meplat is only .005" bigger. In which case, you're getting more in drag and losing penetration for an increase in meplat diameter that must be measured with a micrometer.

Do you guys not see how we're really having to split hairs to find the advantage?

No one, myself included, argues that the .475 is not a significant increase in everything over the .44 and .45.

Fellas, aren't we kind of stuck in the mud here? Why not just list the number of animals you've taken with the 44, then the 45 & then anything bigger & we'll pick a winner & close this one! If you noticed any difference in shock effect, etc tell us about hit, a few ft lbs of energy or a little edge in velocity probably doesn't effect the out come as much as bullet quality or bullet placement, does it? To me, the 44 & 45 is a wash in every way, velocity, recoil, accuracy & killing effectiveness, move up to the 480/475 & you've made a considerable jump, if I'm wrong correct me but lets put a cork in this one & laugh it off.

Dick

I agree with that and as long as placement is good, but step up to the fast 45’s and thats where the fun begins for me with premium bullets. Using hardcast go 480/475 or better yet the 500’s. Im still shocked at the effectiveness of the 480 at such a light recoil level.

I honestly believe you could shoot 1000 each of the same critter and not notice a difference. Those who came before us who came to the conclusion that some cartridges were better for bigger critters shot hundreds, if not thousands of them to come to their conclusions and the gaps between the various cartridges were much, much broader than what we're speaking of here. This argument is more akin to arguing that the .404Jeffery is measurably more effective than any of the various .416's due to the minuscule difference in diameter.

I look at the transition from one caliber to the next more as fluid, rather than black & white or compartmentalized. I do believe that bigger is better but I don't see it as anything from .44Mag on up is suitable for bigger and bigger critters. There's no scenario where the .44 will let them run off but the .45 would've hammered `em flat. This is where I take issue with the Linebaugh/Seyfried writings, is in comparing the best .45 bullets to mediocre .44 bullets and using that as a basis to exaggerate the difference. Sure, they disproved some myths surrounding the .45 but they created a few of their own. It was proven long ago that a .40cal is plenty big enough for anything that walks (speaking of rifles again). In stepping up, all you're doing is increasing the odds that the critter's end will come sooner and widening your margin for error. That the single most important factor is the bullet and its construction.

Got Hodgdon #26 today. As I suspected, the .44 data tops out with a 300gr JSP at 1300fps and 35,000CUP. All .45Colt data is standard pressure.

As I said, if your opinion of the .44Mag stems from something Seyfried or Linebaugh wrote 20-30yrs ago, you need an update.

44 Magnum 300 gr Hornady XTP Remington 2 1/2 large pistol. 8.275 inch barrel

Hodgdon

H110

.430"

1.600"



18.0

1,266

35,100 CUP



19.0

1,325

38,800 CUP





45 Colt 300 Grain Speer JSP WLP Primer 7.25 inch barrel

Hodgdon

H110

.451"

1.650"



21.8

1,191

26,700 CUP



22.2

1,198

30,100 CUP

Speer #14

44 Magnum Redhawk 7.5 inch
300 Grain JSP
22.5 H110
1187 FPS

45 Colt
300 Grain JSP Blackhawk7.5 inch
23.5 H110
1156 FPS
Pressure roughly half way from standard 45 Colt and 44 Mag pressure according to Speer

Why? They were and are correct

I agree with most of this, however, i believe what linebaugh wrote was stuck in a different era and he didnt shoot many animals. Seyfried, loved his writings but largely not applicable to anything when monometal/punch bullets and premium expandables are factored in. i think the fact he was using those trophy bonded whatever solids and bothering to lathe turn em and all that makes me suspect he was looking for something better. Now we have bullets that make small variables in diameter immaterial and velocity plays a bigger role. I think rounds like a 454 and 460 and the 500 jrh can ne loaded to a whole different level of effectiveness than the 44, 45 colt but it does come at a cost, but worth it if you can handle the recoil. (With the 460 the recoil isnt even bad). That said, seyfried and linebaugh have great contributions but they certainly arent the last word at this time. The 475 isnt even at its best with cast bullets. Thats why the bovine bash exists. To test in front of others and see not what someone says from afar trying to make sure they dont have egg on their face, but to see what happens in front of us as to what works and how well it works.

I know and the earth is flat. Sorry but your opinion is based on obsolete information.

Their contributions were immense but we also have to keep it in perspective and the proper context.

I never set out to prove the .44 was better, quite the contrary. But so many folks are so convinced that the .45 is so much better and so invested in that belief that I've had to rigorously defend my findings and that makes me look like a .44Mag Kool Aid drinker.

And you are full of yourself, obsolete my azz. Nothing has changed as the data put up in this thread shows the relationship has changed how in the hell you can make that claim is rediculous

Even though Ross wrote that several years ago it's still my favorite hand gun article of all time. What did Hugo Seia call it, the short 458 or little 458, gotta love it.

Dick

While Taffin has probably cost me more money, Seyfried is probably my favorite writer of all time. His work with Handloader/Rifle magazines are among his best. So this is not some vendetta or agenda against him or Linebaugh.



The truth hurts. You're trying to make this personal. It's just data. Bits of information. No agenda. The problem is that it contradicts what you perceive to be the truth. You made up your mind long ago and won't be swayed by the facts. The Linebaugh/Seyfried writings were written from the perspective that a 300gr JSP at 1300fps was the best it could do and compared that to what the .45 can do with a 325gr cast bullet. That is obsolete information. The .44 was never tested at 50,000psi, which would've shown a mere 100fps advantage to the .45Colt. I wonder why? Could it be because Linebaugh makes a living building .45's out of .44's? How can you look at the Hodgdon data and conclude anything else???

The .45 does not exceed .44Mag performance at less pressure. It nearly duplicates it but still lags behind it for comparable bullet weights BUT with a lower SD.

The .45 does not handle heavier bullets.

The .45 does not penetrate better.

The .45 does not do what it does with less recoil.

The .45 is not universally .023" larger as meplats vary widely. The largest .44 WFN/WLN I can find is .350" and the largest .45 a .360", a difference of only .010".

Contrary to popular opinion, I am not a .45Colt hater. I own 11 of them and dedicate a Dillon 650 with casefeeder to loading for them. In addition to two .454's and ten .45ACP's.

If you take what was written in the proper context it is correct. Pushing 340 grain 44 bullets 50,000 psiis not in context. What is in context is the 45 will push the same weight bullet as fast as the 44 at Less pressure and shorter barrel as all data shows.

All can be loaded to higher pressure in proper platform that is not a problem. The 45 will push the same weight bullet faster than a 44 at the same pressure all data proves this.

The difference between them isn’t day light and dark different but it still exists. 80% meplat is bigger in 45, also a fact

A gun is completely safe at a given pressure ir its not. Its why i dont care one bit whether two calibers shoot the same bullet at 6 or 8k more psi or not. Nor whether a gun has a 100%, 80%, 40% or whatever safety margin. Its safe and the gun can run that pressure or it cant. So care not about these things. I agree with both sides, the 45 colt is bigger and at the same pressure a little faster. That said, i have not one clue why anyone would ever have some fancy custom built in hopes of gaining some massive advantage. If someone wanted a beautiful 45 colt, great, get one. However, if one thinks theres a massive advantage to be gained they are chasing a myth. The 45 colts main advantage is it can use the tougher 454 casull bullets as the biggest gains to be had in either side will be in what bullet one uses.

If the article presents the data in Hodgdon #26 as representing the .44Mag at its best, then it is obsolete.

All data does not show that. The Hodgdon data, presented here, shows differently. Almost as fast, in barrels the same length. Not as fast. Not faster. Not in shorter barrels.

50,000psi loads, when compared to each other, is the proper context.



Agreed. I said that, many times.



That's the abstract version. In the real world, comparing actual bullets, it is not that black & white because commercial bullets aren't following those rules. As I've repeated a thousand times, one must look at individual bullets.

You have to have some sort of ground rules. A baseline. If you're comparing two cartridges or guns, as the articles in question do, you have to start somewhere. Linebaugh determined that the large frame .45 Blackhawk experienced catastrophic failure at ~60,000psi. The .44 Super Blackhawk at ~80,000psi. SAAMI maximums for the .44 are half that, which yields a 100% safety margin. Therefore he concluded that the .45's were about 80% as strong as the .44's and could be safely run at 80% the pressure with a 100% safety margin. Does t hat mean the guns can take more pressure than the accepted maximums? Sure but the safety margin is there for a reason. It's there for those unseen variables like crimp strength, varying chamber dimensions, dirty chambers, tight throats, case length, powder variations, etc., that are not present in a test barrel but can effect chamber pressure in an actual firearm. Sure, you could run a standard six shot Blackhawk at 50,000psi but how long would it last? What happens when those unseen variables add up to create a revolving hand grenade? This is why it is only proper and fair to compare the .45Colt at "Ruger only" levels to the .44Mag at standard pressure. That is part of the Linebaugh/Seyfried articles that is unwavering. It's only in guns that are stronger than the aforementioned six-shot Rugers that they can be operated at the same pressure, which is pretty much the limit at 100% load density.



Nor I. If I'm going to the expense of a five-shot, it's going to be a .475 or .500.



I agree and to me, there is the biggest advantage of the .454. The lofty pressure ceiling coupled with tough bullets make it a significant step up in capability.

Thats why i just use a 454, why not take advantage of even more powder capacity and speed? I kinda laugh at the “i wish fa and ruger and bfr just made it in a 45 colt.” With the 454 you have a cartridge that has the ability to be done with bore size arguments because it will readily push aframes and the like thru a cape buffalo to the offside as it will a barnes xbp and they expand to a minimum of .7”. This kills better than any of the larger solids and the 475 and 480 dont have the velocity to push those expandables to the velocity necessary to make that work, nor do they have the same bullet choices. That said i think the difference is more into what bullets you use. ANY of these choices, and ill add 41 mag in there, can easily be better than a larger faster one depending on which bullet you choose. Ill take a 41 mag with a monometal solid or swift aframe over any of the biggies with a cast bullet.

And with the .454 you can forget about all the crap that is usually wrong with .45's. Over or undersized throats. Oversized chambers, etc..

Which was always one of my gripes about the .45Colt. You can buy a properly built .44Mag right off the shelf but a .45 has to be built out of something else. The best .45's Ruger has ever built are .454's.

If one wants. To use 45 Colt brass in a BFR or FA they can be loaded to the same level

BFR’s and FA haven’t had that problem.

I posted hogdon data and the 44 barrel was indeed 1” and the CUP was slightly higher, that is a f@ct according to Hogdon

Trademark is correct.

They can be loaded near the same level but not to the same level but a maxed 454 will outrun a maxed 45 colt by more than a 45 colt will outrun a 44 mag and the whole point is why then shoot a 45 colt in an already stronger 454 gun then get it knocked down to a 45 colt. Makes not one lick of sense. I know guys that think they load to equivalent 454 levels, but they arent.

In fact the 454 has a great case capacity difference between it and the 45 colt than the 45 colt dose over the 44 mag (depending on the exact brass used). Plus the guns are stronger so if we want to continue with this 45 colt advantage vs the 44 mag then we cant ignore it the other way either.

The 480 Ruger rendered this whole conversation irrelevant , except for the sake of argument.

Well except depending on what bullets one wants to use but it is a step up from the 44mag and 45 colt.

What if one has a cast bullet designed to seat out in the 45 Colt case to the same or very close to the same OAL as the same bullet seated in the 454 case at normal 454 Casull length? Could one come close to the 454 Casull like that?
I could use enough Bullseye under, not over said bullet to get recoil like a 22 RF so I wouldn't be afraid of it. And then I could work up to maybe full power in maybe 10 to 12 years if I live long enough.

The conversation predates BFR's and FA's are $3000. It's cheaper to build a tight .45 out of a .44 than it is to buy an FA.



Which is why the .44's advantage in their data was 100fps. In identical guns, it's 50fps.



Some bullets can only be loaded in .45Colt cases due to overall length limitations. I had a thought about reaming a .44Mag to take a 1.4" case but with the bullets I'm using, there's no point as I'm already using the entire cylinder length.

Some i guess but no probs with any of the monometals or punch bullets, nor the premium expandables. The only time this is an issues is when some crazies adhering to the obsession with bullet weight and somehow think a 385gr is somehow gonna make a difference vs a 355 or whatever. It has never been an issue for me in anyway and i think ive used it on enough stuff to render that point moot.

It's only really an issue with very heavy cast bullets. Which, as we're finding out, is yesterday's news.

IMHO, the 360gr from CPBC or Oregon Trail is the top cast bullet for the .454 and it fits just fine in .454 brass.

When loaded to the same COL the powdered capacity is equal. Ross Seyfried loaded 60,000 + psi loads in 45 colt brass

Bullet weight is not the prime factor that effects penetration. The material and nose shape are more important.

Exactly so weight is way way down the list. Behind construction type and materialtype and nose profile.

what pistols did he shoot those in, Rugers??

Sevilles.

Proving that SD is a meaningless number.

Monolithic solids pretty much destroyed the SD argument.

Without a doubt.

With a 6 shot cylinder

Monolithic solids did not destroy the SD argument, just changed the way we look at it. Unless you think a 200gr copper WFN will penetrate just as well as a 300gr??? I think we all know it won't. The only way to "destroy" the SD argument is to prove that a 200gr copper solid will penetrate the same as a 300gr, or something thereabouts. Right now all we're doing is comparing monolithics to cast bullets. This would be real easy to test by cutting the rear end off the Lehigh solids and pushing them to the same velocity.

It's more critical with cast bullets because they need more "ass" to penetrate as they deform.

To be precise, they were Sevilles with oversized six-shot cylinders.

Yes it does destroy the SD theory

Will a solid copper 300gr .500 penetrate as well as a solid copper 300gr .44? No. Would an aluminum bullet penetrate as well as solid copper? No. Mass and momentum are still factors. Mass relative to diameter is still important. Therefore so is the number that represents mass relative to diameter, which is sectional density. Not a whole lot of analytical thinking going on here.

Interesting conversation going on here and I'm enjoying it.

Same!
I know just about zilch about revolvers, but I feel like I'm learning good stuff here.

+1

Will a 500L 525 grain WLN penetrate farther than a 450 Punch Bullet? If not then SD is BS. I can assure that it will not. SD does not take into account for bullet construction, nose shape or meplat size all of which effects penetration.

How long it takes you is up to you, but id be sure you are laser accurate if you are shooting at a high trophy fee animal. Yes you can load out bullets in 45 colt cases, but then you face worse bullet pull issues. Then again, you shouldnt be using cast bullets in this scenario.

Yes, you are right. In fact we saw first hand a 400 grain ceb at 1720 fps handily out penetrate a 440 cast at 1880 fps. And a 500 cast at 1680 fps. The 500 grain was demolished the 440 held together very well. Infact the bigger faster 500 smith hardcasts didnt even penetrate better than a simple 330 grain lehigh monometal at mid 1350’s or so from a 480 ruger. These were test loads for buffalo bore dangerous game loads. The faster 300 gr 454 lehigh and ceb loads cut thru the waterbuffalos without a problem. The 460 is simply ridiculous.

Whether something is a factor is one thing, whether its worth talking about is another. The only way one could predict whether a 300 grain 500 or a 300 grain 44 will penetrate more is to have any clue what belocity of the bullets in question. I wouldnt assume the 44 would outpentrate based on sectional density. Could it play a role? Perhaps. But the material if its the same to handle the one with faster velocity, then the nose profile is huge, and the velocity is a huge determiner.

So.....in a nutshell i would bet big money i could run a 300 grain 50 cal out of a jrh case that would out penetrate a 300 gr 44 mag. The velocity of the 500 will handily outpace that of the 44. The sectional densities are so close in all the major calibers normal bullet weight. I.e. 300 to 360 in 45 and 265 to 300 gr in 44 and so forth up the chain that its a moot point besides obviously silly comparisons. The fact they are monometals means the limits velocity plays on the whole situation is now gone. Which is why i can punch thru things handily with a 300 gr 454 monometal that i cant with a 475 with cast buklets. So basically we can eliminate all trivialities in saying that a 480 ruger outperforms a 454 let alone a 460. Which wasnt a horrible observation when we were dealing with the limitations of cast bullets. This shouldnt be alarming to anyone despite the nashing of teeth from the cast purists. It opens up revolvers to perform at levels not seen before. Who wouldve guessed we could drive through bone and then thru a whole animal and then more bone better than we ever could before and we dont need ultra heavy maxed out rounds and can get by with a lighter lighter recoiling round out of everyday calibers than ever before. And we havent even talked about the biggies pushing ultra reliable expandables that provide the same offside pentration wrecking the vitals with wound channels several magnitudes larger than any of the solids. On another forum a friend of mine posted a picture of an entire lobe of a lung blown out of a deer with a swift aframe load from a 460. Hell, i put down a cape buffalo where he stood at 150 yards with a 460 and a swift aframe. Despite its rather unimpressive sectional density and expansion to .7”!

You guys are mixing way too many variables and making conclusions based on too little information.

First and foremost, the fact that a lighter monolithic outpenetrates a heavier cast does not "destroy" the SD "argument". All it means is that weight moves down the totem pole in favor of a bullet that does not deform.

Second, SD is not an all-encompassing belief system. It's not an argument. Or a measure of lethality. It is simply the bullet's weight relative to its diameter. It is a singular factor among many. I don't know why people are in such a hurry to dismiss it.

We have tons of cast bullets in various weights, so it is easy to determine that heavier bullets of a comparable shape/hardness/toughness will penetrate deeper than lighter ones. However, there are far too few monolithics to be able to even properly compare them and determine what role SD plays.

I would just about bet the farm that a 300gr .500 wouldn't come close to a 300gr .44 in penetration. I've seen this first hand with the additional drag a .45 bullet has over a .44 at a given weight. It will be interesting to find out.

You guys don't think thee's a reason why these bullets are as long as a heavy cast? If weight relative to diameter was not a factor at all, they'd be making these bullets a lot lighter, that could be driven a lot faster. But they are not.

Here's the 270gr Punch, 300gr Punch, 300gr Barnes Buster compared to 330gr LFN and 355gr WLN. If weight doesn't matter, why are they so long???

You guys carry on,tomorrow me & some friends will be blasting Rock Chucks, Ground Squirrels & hopefully a large Badger than ran across the road today. I'll be use cast & I don't expect anything to charge or need a second shot. And I can make a 50 round box of 327 bullets for what one of those first 2 bullets cost.

Dick

Agreed. SD has never been accurate not even in rifles, bullet construction, is far more important as is meplat size and nose profile.

Sectional density is the ratio of an object's mass to its cross-sectional area with respect to a given axis. It conveys how well an object's mass is distributed (by its shape) to overcome resistance along that axis.

Sectional density is used in gun ballistics. In this context, it is the ratio of a projectile's weight in pounds to its diameter in inches squared, with respect to a given axis. It conveys how well an object's mass is distributed (by its shape) to overcome resistance along that axis. For illustration, a nail can penetrate a target medium with its pointed end first with less force than a coin of the same mass lying flat on the target medium.

During World War II bunker-busting Röchling shells were developed by German engineer August Cönders, based on the theory of increasing sectional density to improve penetration. Röchling shells were tested in 1942 and 1943 against the Belgian Fort d'Aubin-Neufchâteau[1] and saw very limited use during World War II.

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Formula
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General
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In a physics context sectional density is defined as:

S
D
=
M
A
SD={\frac {M}{A}}[2]
SD is the sectional density
M is the mass of the projectile
A is the cross-sectional area
Ballistics
Edit
In a ballistics context sectional density of circular cross-sections is most commonly defined as:

S
D
=
W
l
b
d
i
n
2
=
W
g
r
7000
d
i
n
2
{\displaystyle SD={\frac {W_{\mathrm {lb} }}{{d_{\mathrm {in} }}^{2}}}={\frac {W_{\mathrm {gr} }}{7000\,{d_{\mathrm {in} }}^{2}}}}[3][4][5]
SD is the sectional density
Wlb is the weight of the projectile in pounds
Wgr is the weight of the projectile in grains
d in is the diameter of the projectile in inches
The sectional density defined this way is usually presented without units.

As an example, a bullet 160 grains in weight and a diameter of .284 inches, would have a sectional density, SD = 160/7000 × 1/.284^2 = 0.283

Historical background
Edit

For historical reasons, within the field of ballistics it is often assumed that the unit of mass is the pound, and the unit of length is the inch. For example: ".357 magnum" (not ".357 inch magnum"). By fixing the units, quantities can be treated as dimensionless.

Use in ballistics
Edit

The sectional density of a projectile can be employed in two areas of ballistics. Within external ballistics, when the sectional density of a projectile is divided by its coefficient of form (form factor in commercial small arms jargon[6]); it yields the projectile's ballistic coefficient.[7] sectional density has the same (implied) units as the ballistic coefficient.

Within terminal ballistics, the sectional density of a projectile is one of the determining factors for projectile penetration. The interaction between projectile (fragments) and target media is however a complex subject. A study regarding hunting bullets shows that besides sectional density several other parameters determine bullet penetration.[8][9][10]

Only if all other factors are equal, the projectile with the greatest amount of sectional density will penetrate the deepest

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectional_density



Notice the last sentence “Only if all other factors are equal, the projectile with the greatest amount of sectional density will penetrate the deepest”
That would include velocity.

I'm fairly certain we already knew that SD was the weight relative to diameter.

If SD doesn't matter then weight doesn't matter and we all know that weight matters.

It's bad when we start quoting Wikipedia. If we're going to get technical:

"Sectional density is the quotient of bullet weight in pounds over the diameter in inches squared.

SD = Wt/D^2.

That’s not a ratio. It’s a quotient. And diameter isn’t in the numerator, it squared is the denominator."

Once again, I have never made the argument that SD is the only important factor. As I said above, it is one of several important factors.



Pretty sure that's what I've been saying all along. I'm also fairly certain that my suggestion of cutting the rear end off a Lehigh WFN would prove or disprove the theory.

This piece below was penned by Michael McCourry, the gentleman who designed the CEB solid. He has killed more bovines in testing than anyone else I know by a wide margin to test his designs and theories. He knows what he is talking about...



There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in
Order of Importance.....

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber
Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat
bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in
meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70%
Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68%
Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality
rifles..........

#2 Nose Profile
There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled
Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks
and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more... Not all
of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in
comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was
getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same
bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all.... John at North Fork agrees, and in their work
there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing
that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests
here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this
is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of
these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission
before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains
DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD........

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say
the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and
absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended
targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as
well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them
flatten out like pancakes when hitting some heavy..... Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this
solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than
Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass,
and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as
well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or
weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material
deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important, and very true........

#4 Nose Projection
Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more
factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose
projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to
depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a
SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to
work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns,
single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The
LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter
nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability,
nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with
properly designed bullets.

#5 Radius Edge of Meplat
We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none
the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end
than a sharp edged radius.... No more to go into here, thats it.......

All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design........

#6 Velocity
Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/
Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the
bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and
construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose
profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and
other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles,
added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and
destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed,
then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get
distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat,
then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease,
stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at
2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core
bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and
then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor
#6.........

#7 Barrel Twist Rate
Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT....... If the meplat
of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of
penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can
stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower...... I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber
stabilize with ZERO TWIST....... I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with
faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times...... If you are using a
properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you
are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN
Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ.......

#8 Sectional Density
Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every
other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal
performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far
out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son
recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a
350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the
far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional
density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh
500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............

These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work,
and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field,
many many times over...... These are the 8 Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid
Bullets.................

I agree with all of that. However, only so much rifle ideology applies to handguns because we're operating at 1000fps less. We're getting the same job done with less bullet weight because the bullets do not deform but I do not think that suggests that SD and therefore weight does not matter. They are still relatively heavy bullets. If weight/SD did not matter at all, we would get the same job done with VERY light bullets. There has to be a tipping point. The copper solids don't eliminate SD as a factor, it just moves the scale down. In other words, more information/testing is needed.

In some regards, we are well ahead of the big bore rifle crowd. They're just not figuring out that flat nosed solids work better than round nose. Revolvers are also not limited according to what nose shapes will and won't feed.

In there you said the large resistance you see bw a 44 and 45 colt. That resistance is what does damage. So you are saying the 45 doesnt penetrate as far due to it doing alot more damage than the 44? Correct. Secondly i am positive i can a 500 300 grain further than a 300 gr 44 mag just due to the massive velocity difference.

Max: Thanks for posting. I followed the 400+ posts on Accurate Reloading but missed this summation. Where was it published? What amazed me is that it took a person not in the firearms industry using his own resources to develop such definitive facts. The Linebaugh penetration tests were a start but Michael really sealed the deal. Not only that but Michael introduced me to Corris Ferreira of Track-A-Hunt Safaris.
These 8 Factors were developed in the context of dangerous game rifles with velocities greater than attainable in pistols. Reviewing the velocity section emphasis was on the effects of excess velocity. Do you think there is any significant change to these factors at velocities roughly half of the dangerous game rifles?

The days of the big bore rifle crowd not knowing are over. They use flatpoint solids all the time now. Secrets been out for awhile you just dont hear about it alot because the expandables are so good with rifle power it is pretty much only elephants and not even that all the time that requires a solid with the big bores


You also said only so much rifle ideology applies. Who said and why would that be. Ive been hearing pistols dont kill like rifles but they can and do if proper bullets are used. Monometals may not destroy the SD argument but they make it a moot point.

There it is right there

I'm not talking about resistance due to tissue damage. I'm talking about two bullets with the same meplat diameter creating the same diameter wound channel but the .45 losing penetration due to drag/friction of the larger "ass" end trailing behind the meplat. Diameter, weight, weight relative to diameter, meplat, nose shape, nose projection, it ALL matters to one degree or another.

As I said and it keeps getting ignored, do you really think that a 200gr bullet will penetrate the same as a 300gr bullet if everything else is equal? Further, if SD/weight do not matter, why such long bullets in the 300gr range, why not lightweight bullets that can be pushed faster?

Rifle ideology has ALWAYS had limited application to handgun wounding effects. Things are a lot different when you add 1000fps to the mix. Bear in mind, this conversation is about traditional handgun rounds. Not the speedy X-frame chamberings or even the .454. That is what I meant about mixing way too many variables and coming to conclusions based on too little information.

By and large, the big bore rifle crowd is slowly coming around to flat nosed bullets.

Yes, McCourry has done a lot of testing but it's all with rifles. We were all there on the B&M forum in trying to make them understand get CEB to produce a handgun bullet with a wider meplat and an ogival nose shape, rather than a truncated cone. They're rifle guys, that's where their experience and mindset reside. Are we all changing our minds just to win an argument?

If everybody would just calm down and stop trying to hurry to the end of this journey, my next round of testing is probably going to answer many of these questions. I have an idea or two of some surprises it may reveal. One is that the monolithics may not actually penetrate deeper in SIMTEST than cast bullets. We may need the greater resistance of bones and other obstacles, those things that cause cast bullets to deform, to reveal their true advantage. We will see the effect velocity has on penetration as well.

The thing is every thing isn't equal the light shorter bullet can be driven faster. Everything equal means the shorter lighter bullet is the same speed. The increased velocity will increase the penetration of the lighter bullets penetration in a monumental design. SD doesn't take all factors into account such as increased velocity

Of course SD doesn't "take into account" all the other factors. It IS but ONE factor. You posted the definition but do you really know what it means? SD quantifies the bullet's weight relative to its diameter. It is not a measure of lethality like TKO.

For a proper and meaningful test, to determine the role of SD, one would have to drive two identical bullets, differing only in weight at the same velocity. That's how scientific testing works. Change one variable at a time. Your post suggests changing two variables and that would completely nullify the results because you'd have no way of determining which variable effected the outcome and how. Velocity variations have nothing to do with the role of SD. Testing the role velocity plays would involve testing the same bullet at varying speeds. Personally, I think bullet weight and therefore SD has a more dramatic effect on penetration than velocity. We shall see.

I know exactly what SD means, but do you? SD is low on the list that effects penetration just as Miachel said. Whitworth's post Micheal’s words above and SD is low on the list. Increased velocity with a bullet that can stand up to the additional velocity will without a doubt will increase penetration.

But will a 200gr bullet penetrate as well as an identical 300gr at the same velocity???

According to Michael and everyone else you guys have quoted, it will not. So weight and therefore SD, matters. Else we'd use aluminum bullets and get the same result.

The real question is how much does it matter? How much does velocity matter? At what point do they intersect?

I doubt it, but why would you run the light bullet to the same velocity?

As I said, to isolate variables. You can't argue that one variable is meaningless and then change two variables to prove it.

If you "doubt it", then weight and therefore sectional density matters.

Case closed.

Recoil reduction, maybe some gain in ballistics. Loading for ultimate penetration is rarely a goal of mine.

Yessir, and im a fan of limiting variables in the lab but it is often pointless if those are never the set of variables seen in real life. At the end of the day i would imagine one can make a bullet penetrate further shooting it out of a gun than just throwing it so i would imagine velocity matters.

Well, it's the only way to determine the effect of each factor, to do so separately. Anybody can say, "this works, let's go kill something with it".

This is how we figure out what works, what works best and why. This is how progress is made. If we don't have answers to all these questions, there is obviously more still to learn. More information is always better. How can we provide a logical argument for this stuff if we don't have all the answers?

Velocity definately matters and that is the beauty of a monometal flat lighter weight, more velocity with outstanding penetration and flatter trajectory.

Buffal Bore Dangerous Game Load In 44 mad is 265 grain monometal flat point

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=561

True to a point. Theres no way to eliminate every variable and when you control yet one more, another crops up its ugly head so to some degree figuring out what works and works best is the way to go imho.

No but we can do the best we can in a controlled environment. We can learn what aspects work better than others, what factors are more important than others. If velocity or bullet weight don't play a huge role or if either one presents significant diminishing returns, then we're beating ourselves up for nothing. If either makes a significant difference, then we know what we want more of. Testing is just the beginning. We take what we glean there and then apply it in the field.

In the April 2001 Handloader Ross says he settled on the 250Keith bullet with 23 grains of H110 and a magnum primer. I bought Ross's Star loader and with it came two sets of dies; 45 acp, and 44 magnum. Here is the load data that he wrote on the card included with the dies. He must have cut the H110 load a grain after wearing out a couple of 29s. I have no clue what pressure that load runs so don't use without consulting a manual.

That's very close to my every day carry load .. 24.0 grains of Win 296 under a home-cast 250 grain SWC. It has worked very well in a dozen or so .44s.

I don't shoot much 2400 but when I do, it's a "3/4 speed" load ... 17.5 grains under a different (so it's visually apparent which ammo I've got) 250 grain SWC. Pretty much Elmer's .44 classic warm special load in .44 mag cases.

Tom