Where my friend and I woods walk is somewhere in Lolo National Forest. She has a phobia about bears. The likelihood of a bear contact or confrontation approaches zero, Nevertheless, extreme west-central Montana has a lot of bears (when compared with anywhere else in CONUS). I have two Freedom Arms Model 97s in 45 Colt for which I have 44 Magnum [equivalent] ammunition and have offered her the one of her choice for our woods walks. She owns an S&W 640-1 in 357 Magnum that she shoots quite well with 38 Special +P LSWC-HP "FBI" ammunition. She doesn't want to use a single action revolver, especially one that is significantly more powerful at both ends.

So I bought an older S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman 357 Magnum with 4-inch barrel. I want to acquire perhaps 150 rounds of 357 Magnum ammunition that will be reasonably prophylactic for that near-zero possibility of her becoming more intimate with a bear than she would prefer. I am considering 180- and 200-grain 357 Magnum ammunition. Cast bullet full power loads of factory 357 I anticipate will punch a .358-inch hole with through-and-through penetration. I have no experience with 180- and 200- grain jacketed bullets used in factory ammunition. I suspect one of them might include nose expansion while penetrating nearly as well as the cast bullet ammunition.

Anyone who has used a slightly expanding factory loaded 357 Magnum ammunition using bullets between 180 and 200 grains, please let me know. I strongly prefer replies from people who have used the ammunition on larger game animals or penetration testing of the ammunition. And please keep in mind that the 4-inch barrel will cost velocity.

I don't know of any 200gr factory load for .357, but if there isn't one, there ought to be. I haven't killed any large animal with the .357, and I can't attest to the performance of any expanding 180g load. But I can tell you that the hard cast 180gr from Buffalo Bore from a 4" Security Six clocks a little south of the advertised 1400fps, and is pretty unpleasant to shoot.

The shooter who can make fast and accurate follow up shots with that load in a 4" medium frame revolver has my deepest respect. In a large frame, it might be more practical, but I don't have one around here to try.

I got some 250 grain Hornady that I shoot in my Whelen ! 😇

I have been disappointed in the penetration of the heavier jacketed bullets out of a 357. My 2 cents says that a hard cast 158-160 gr SWC bullet, is far more reliable. This style of bullet used to often be referred to a "keith style" as old Elmer used to preach this as gospel. I agree.
Trialed some heavier cast bullets and had trouble with accuracy and was not happy with velocities. I have never used any of the fully jacketed (military style) bullets for hunting, but I do like some of the copper washed cast bullets.
My experience has been with whitetails, 1 bear, and several Florida hogs. A 4" S&W mod 19 is my weapon of choice for hogs. Most of this shooting is close to very close range.
In reality, a good 44 Special load will provide performance that is superior to a 357, in every way.

I still have a part box of 200 grain Alaska Backpacker .357 ammo left over from a trip up there several years ago. Good potent stuff. nearly 1000 fps from a 2 1/4" SP-101. I don't know if it's still being produced.

There are several makers producing full power 180 grain hardcast loads and that's what I'd equip her with, in your shoes.

I have a a Combat Magnum S&W, wouldn’t want to shoot that kinda ammo in my gun, hard on the gun and the shooter.

170 Gold Dots do very well in my FA 97. I did have to get a taller front sight. FA folks were very helpful, knew exactly the height I needed. It would work well with hard cast 170’s or 180’s. Those are about as heavy as I would want in a .357.

For heavier, I’d go with a .45. My line bored, three screw SBH .45 Colt loves Penn Bullets 270 Thunderhead. Google them. A real thumper, big meplat.

DF

BTW, I found that Buffalo Bore 180gr load to be very accurate.

I have some of the Buffalo Bore 180 gn "Outdoorsman" ammo that I shot out of a Taurus 605 (Steel J-frame clone). I need to chronograph it, but it's rowdy for sure.

I read that a bow guide and his daughter guide both pack J-frames in .357 mag for bear country. The reasoning is that to stop a bear, you need a CNS hit in a gun that you can control, and it can penetrate. Heavy, hard cast .357 traveling at 1200-1400 fps aught to do that.

I think that's the right idea.



One thing I'll give you a heads up on is that N-frame .357s like the 28, have a shorter chamber length and may not chamber the long nosed heavies. Those guns were developed before the heavy for caliber rounds were.

K & L frames, plus Ruger GP and SPs have a longer chamber.

I fired 5 of those from my 12oz S&W 360, I am "saving" the rest of them.

The problem with loading heavy bullets in your model 28 S&W is, most of them won't fit in the cylinder in a 357 magnum case. For many, many years I loaded the Keith 173 gr bullet in 38 special cases & 2400 powder in my model 28 for a quite powerful load. That's a load that she could handle, especially with a set of Pachmyr grips. She has to been able to hit what she's shooting at & I've killed deer with that load. If she has to use it on a bear it's going to be close.
Way too many people over gun themselves when picking a "bear" gun & load, you have to hit something to get it's attention. If you want some good Keith bullets PM me & I'll send you some. I'll also tell you a couple of other things you can do to help her shoot double action better.

Dick

Waiting for BFR and Dufous to show up to tell you guys how stupid you are for not recommending a .500 something or other handgun for the lady. Because .357's will bounce off the bear (she may get an eye poked out from a rebounding bear bounced off bullet) and she needs to start with a big bore blaster and work her way down from there for best shooting results.

Who was it that took a 357 (8 inch) to Alaska and harvested big game with it? What load did he use?

Without a lot of range time using those heavy .357 loads, she, or anyone else, is going to have difficulty getting off a second aimed shot. Not saying it can be done, but doing takes a lot of practice.

For sure.

Phil Shoemaker, while guiding a fishing party, reportedly killed a big bear with his 9mm. IIRC, he used heavy for caliber, hard cast bullets.

But, Phil is an experienced guide, knows where to hit a bear, is a cool operator under pressure and obviously knows how to shoot.

You just don't find that combo in many individuals.

For the average gringo armed with a pistol, I'd give the advantage to the bear. I think odds makers in Vagus would probably back that..

DF

Phil also had the advantage of firing broadside into the bear, at close range, while it was harassing somebody else. Just offering this for a little perspective.

The Buffalo Bore Heavy load is pretty sporty recoil-wise. If your friend doesn't like the thump of the 45 she isn't going to care for the BB 180 either.

On the rare occasion that I carry a 357 off pavement it's loaded with the 190 gr LBT style bullet from Hunter's Supply. I run them over 11 grains of 2400 and they average 1080 f/s from a 4" barrel. Recoil is manageable for follow-up shots and they do fit in the short cylinder of Smith 27 & 28's. I've never shot a critter with it, though I'm sure it'll do the deed on the black bears in these parts. The Buffalo Bore 9mm load mentioned earlier is a 147 at 1100, so it's in that same ballpark plus a bit.

Those of you who replied topically, thank you.

I wasn't aware this thread was about ointment.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35_417&products_id=3087

this hard cast water dropped with GC at 1300 fps or better should work.

Why not just use the 38 Special Outdoors Man.

Can't think of anyone I'd rather have, keeping a big bear off my six...

DF

Buffalo bore 180 hard cast load in my 357 mag outpenetrated my brothers 44 mag buffalo bore loads my other brothers 460 Rolland buffalo bore loads and my nephew in-laws 500 S@W! Shooting into a hard piece of fir firewood

Pretty sure I am far from undergunned with that load concerning bear protection and yes the 357 mag rocks when it comes to penetration



Trystan

Where can one get equivalent 180 hard cast bullets to reload?

IIRC, Buffalo Bore offers loaded ammo, not components.

DF

Might check out Beartooth Bullets.

When it comes to bears, .357 is a placebo. Pick something comfortable to shoot in the 158-160 grain range and be done with it. You will either need it or you won't. If you need it, it will either work or it won't.

Frankly, her being unwilling to carry a single action shows that having her way is more important and taken more seriously than the perceived problem or the perceived outcome. Ether that or you are coddling her foolishness which is foolishness of your own. Consider giving her good bear spray, you pack your single action, and *work as a team*. It's what I did with one of my friends who is afraid of guns. I taught her to go first and if something happened, drop to a knee low to my left out of the line of fire, prep the bear spray / use if in range and the need isn't going away, and above all else **do not touch me.**

Tom

Because only a single action is an effective bear gun?

If she ever shot a .357 FA 97, she may change her mind. It's not a big gun, but the way it's set up, the grip design, excellent trigger, makes it easy to shoot. And 180 gr. bear loads aren't that intimidating with this one. It's built like a bank vault and accurate. Of course you'll need a higher front sight with heavy bullets. Tell the folks at FA what you're shooting and they'll let you know the right height. Swapping is easy, just need an Allen wrench.

DF

In testing 357 mag ammo into blocks of firewood there is a huge difference in penetration depending on which bullet was uses. 180 Buffalo bore ammo penetrated as much as 16" while some ammo/158 gr hollow points penetrated 3"

Personally I would prefer a load that I know will reach the central nervous system with zero issues so that the it will either work or it won't leans heavy toward it definately will work if the operated does there part.




Trystan

Yeah, hard cast 180’s would be my choice.

DF

This isn't really answer as much as it is an additional question for the original poster. Summing up some highlights of the original post:



I understand her not wanting one too much recoil, but since the original poster didn't address it, I'm wondering if it doesn't come down her to not wanting to pack the extra weight of a bigger, heavier gun? Or maybe the grip size of the others just doesn't fit her hand as well as her current 640-1? (You didn't address her reaction to the model 28.) A quick perusal of the 'net shows a pretty significant weight "penalty" (for packing as opposed to shooting) over the J-frame 640 at 22 oz, with the K-frame 4" 28 at 41 oz, and the Freedom Arms at somewhere around 36 oz- depending on barrel length.

I buy Cast Performance 180s.

I shoot book max with H110 out of my 4" 586 and they are a pussycat. Accurate, and waaaaaay less muzzle blast and discomfort than either 125s or 158s.

Shot one cylinder out of my wife's mod 60. Don't plan on a second.

Not a bear (or anything else!) expert but why not an 8 shot 627 or Taurus 608? Same weight as your 28 and two more shots. Far as 180 .357's I used .38 special cases and I don't think Mr.bear would want more than two shots.

The buffalo bore .180 .357 outdoorsman is a potent round. I didn't find recoil objectionable in my 2 3/4" M66-8 (not even close to Mag Level loads in a 4 1/4" M97) -- from which they clocked 1,320 fps on my labradar (1,894 fps from 16" Rossi Carbine)




As mentioned above, both Beartooth and Cast Performance offer the 180gr LBT type for the .357. In the past Beartooth deliver times leave a lot to be desired. Here are some more sources:

RimRock says they are the supplier for BB 180gr load

https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/g-ch-38-357-180-gr-lbt-wfn-per-100-in-plastic-ammo-box.html

Montana Bullet Works is always a good source for quality cast bullets

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/shop/?filter_caliber=357

If you want some that a bit more economical try these (either traditional lubed or coated)

https://missouribullet.com/results.php?pageNum_rsCWResults=1&category=5&secondary=10

Paul

Good info.

Thanks

DF

The model 28 Highway Patrolman is an “N” Frame not a “K” Frame.

Oops, yep, you're right!

Not at all. I suggest returning to the original post and re-reading. He states that his GF does not want to shoot a single action. The simple fact is for many people .. not everyone, but many people .. a single action manages recoil a lot better than a double action so the choices are to shoot a very abusive double action or a fairly soft shooting single action ... chambered for the same cartridge or one even more powerful. I good example from my own meager collection is my .357 DA revolver vs my single action .44 revolver. The .357 is vastly, vastly more abusive to shoot yet much less "potent" on critters.

Sometimes a person needs to step back, look at the desired result, and figure out the most effective way to get there. Y' can't always have both the destination you want AND the route you want to take. One doesn't lead to the other. As described by the OP, I think his girlfriend has put herself in that position.

Tom

none of this is applicable unless you reload:
I have fooled around with these bullets, go up to 230 grains
https://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.html

Following something written by shoemaker years ago were 180 grain fmj's
and i have hard cast keith style 170 grain bullets for 357magnum. These i cast myself.
off the top of my head they were not max loads, but around 1000fps or so.
I do know shooting them into river rock, which is hard rock, they were cracking the rock.
impressed the snot out of me.
I was firing them out of a model 28 too.
i have never believed in a big bore handgun than on recoil is hard to manage for the second shot, given how fast a bear is.
My wife shoots a model 66 smith better than most men can.
She is 80 years old.
i think those 170 grain keith bullets is gonna stop anything she might be faced with two legged or four legged.

DA with less power for faster follow-up shots vs SA with more power and much slower follow-up shots. The age-old question......

And I don't have a definitive answer.

But I'd go with what she shoots best. I will say that the felt recoil issue with DA is quite often not dealt with properly. Few people really search out the best grip shape for them, and ironically, the potential variety of shapes is one of the biggest advantages of a DA revolver. With a proper hand-fitting grip, a DA can be quite comfortable with fairly heavy loads.

It's subjective. I prefer a S&W double action .44 magnum over a Ruger Blackhawk .44 magnum all things equal. I definitely prefer the Bisley grip over the plow handle in heavy recoiling single actions.

Agree.

The FA grip is a blend, so to speak.

It's near perfect, IMO.

That's why I was pushing the smaller frame 97 in .357 for 180 hard cast.

Easy to carry, easy to control, deadly with decent bullet placement.

DF

I hope I respond to everyone reasonably efficiently.

1. She is familiar with trigger action shooting. We both recognize that were the near-zero confrontation to occur, she would use that shooting method. So rather than fight that ingrained learned response, use it with a more powerful revolver of the same type.

2. Having tried several revolvers of varying power on the range, her drop in effectiveness when shooting 45 Colt +P (not my FA 97 handloads) and 44 Magnum is severe. She believes 357 Magnum, a significant measure more powerful than the "FBI" loads she uses in her 640, is as much gun as she can handle. Again, rather than try to convince her of an alternative, I acquired a 357 Magnum revolver of the same trigger action that is heavy enough to reduce recoil effect while being capable of safely shooting any 357 Magnum ammunition.

3. So the next step is to identify the ammunition that will be most effective when shot from that revolver. I shoot only "FBI" ammunition from my Ruger SP101s, so I'm no help for a heavier, more powerful 357 Magnum ammunition solution. My recommendation for using one of my FA 97s is a non-starter. And my "generosity" maxes out with the Highway Patrolman.

4. With my heavy 45 Colt ammunition (300-grain Saeco SWC-GC @ 1150 fps ± 75) I am a "believer" in straight penetration with any expansion being an afterthought so long as penetration remains straight and [preferably] through-and-through. Once I move beyond the "FBI" load 38 Special LSWC-HP 158 grains, I am not able to make a knowledgeable choice.

5. So I ask of shooters who can help.

I'm just the opposite. The high hump behind the hammer on a S&W clobbers the lowest "knuckle" at the base of my thumb inside the web of my hand. I've used S&W grips that offset that a good bit, but not completely, and they come with handling / concealment characteristics that offset any perceived advantage the DA ever had over SA. Not a win .. not for me anyway.

Regarding Ruger SA grips, I'm not a huge bisley fan. I absolutely appreciate the recoil reduction with my .454. However, I've had a couple Bisley .44s and it's a net loss. Yes, there is a bit less perceived recoil. That is more than offset by losing the ability to point-shoot the gun effectively as well as creating a fairly butt-heavy feel I don't like. At .454 recoil levels, take the Bisley grip. At .44 recoil level, give me the smaller Blackhawk / Super Blackhawk (4-5/8" and 5-1/2") grip. I'm not sure yet where the .480 falls. Got it, haven't had time to shoot it.

DF - I haven't shot the smaller FA grip, the only FA I've fired was Ringman's .454. It was a bit peppy. Overall, I liked it, but he had 2 studs added for attaching a sling to the sides of the gun that scuffed my hand under recoil in a fairly disconcerting way. With those gone I think I could have liked it considerably.

Tom

Until your hand heals? I think I shot 7 of those until the webbing between my thumb and first finger said "no".

Naphtali -

As you've laid things out, I'd be happy with a 180 grain lead bullet or similar marginally expanding jacketed bullet. I would not feel any less "undergunned" with a good 158 though. Hornady's factory 158 grain XTP HP load is one of my favorites.

Tom

The 97 in .357 with 180's at full power is a whole different animal than the larger 83 in .454...

It's even fun to shoot; not so much the .454, IME.

DF

Thanks for the clarification Naphtali. Sounds logical and having no experience on bears, I’d go with a heavy lead bullet with as much meplat as possible at as high a velocity as is safe, or your friend can handle, whichever comes first.

I b'lieve you! I had not really considered the .357 angle. When I look at the FA 97 I have been thinking .32 cal, .44 special, or .45 colt. Hmmmm.

And the .357 is a six shooter. Not five.

DF

This is where I'm supposed to label you "enabler" I think?

I'll help DF in the enabling dept - 6 shot 357 FA97

That one is fancier than mine with the octagonal barrel. Those are really nice.

To cap your enabling efforts, tell him how sweet it shoots, even with heavy 180 gr. loads, how controlable it is, etc. etc....

You've about got him there, he's close. Go ahead and close the deal...



DF

Handguns are about bullets and in reality there is very little difference between what Buffalo Bore turns out and what one can easily make at home and even the neophyte will make it lead less if going the lead route.

The NOE 173 Keith is perfectly at home driven at 950 fps. in 38 cases in 4" 38 guns with Longshot powder or past 1,200 with 2,400 powder in adequate strength guns, sans a gas check.

Thje 180 FN by LBT, gas checked and driven to 1,400 in a six inch gun with 18 grs. of Hodgdon Lil' Gun is about all there is on tap in the 357. Like those of yesteryear discovered, the hitting ability of the 38 case wins in precision to the amount of velocity gained on the .10 inch longer case, which with solids is nil. The 180 LBT does make the heavy 357 fly well and still fit in most all 357 cylinders while the 173 Keith does not.

Noise, racket and recoil is primarily a function of powders stuffed into a handgun case; any ball powder after/slower than 2400 requires a bit of concentration that doesn't equate to any amount of velocity gained by using it, unless we are wanting positive expansion from jacketed bullets within certain ranges.

Seems I remember reading that Freedom Arms will void the warranty if you send a FA revolver back with cut top strap from using Lil gun powder. Seems it burns really hot, evidently acting like a plasma torch at the cylinder gap. I would think that would take a lot of shooting. I didn’t Goggle it, probably should have before posting. Check it out to confirm.

DF

Naphtali,

When I read your post, my very first thoughts were that you need to seek out and listen to the advice of IDAHO 1945, aka Dick. He is a true SME when it comes to bears and handguns, having decades of experience hunting them with all manner of handguns in the Rockies. When I scrolled down and noted that he replied, I chuckled, and was glad to see that he had. May on the web often simply regurgitate what they have read elsewhere, and what they read is often information that has been read somewhere else. Idaho1945, has enough handgun hunting experience to fill numerous books and that includes bears of the Idaho/Montana variety.

For more than a decade I have been gently nudging him to write a book!

I would heed his wise counsel.

I have not heard the top strap cutting but, forcing cone erosion was fir sure the origin of the “no warranty” when useing Lillgun

Thanks for that info.

Lil’gun must really burn hot.

DF

300 MP runs close to lilgun in velocity without all the 'controversy' that surrounds lil gun regarding heat and top straps.

I like 300 MP, also a great .22 K-Hornet and Hornet powder.

DF

I have a 4' Mod 28. I shoot hard cast 168 gr SWC over a stout measure of 2400. An outstanding load, very accurate, great penetration.

FYI, 300MP is the same powder as: H110, w296, and AA#11FS so any of those would work equally as well.

I like the 190 Hunter Supply in my 4" 686+ and I have a box of 200g Cast Performance WFNGC bullets that I haven't loaded yet. I have heard the 180 XTP is excellent as well but I have no first hand experience with it. For Bear Defense, I would go with a double action personally. I would feel ok with a 180-200g hard cast in the 686+ but would rather my 629 with a 320 WFNGC.

If she can shoot the 357 well, that is what she should carry IMO.

You asked about factory loads. If Buffalo Bore's 357 magnum heavy cast bullet load wont work in your cylinder due to length, then you could go down to .38 special Buffalo Bore load.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/8...hard-cast-lead-semi-wadcutter-box-of-20#

Its faster than the "FBI" load she is shooting, but more importantly, its a hard cast bullet for penetration. This load should fit in your Highway Patrolman.

Tell her nicely to MAN UP BUTTERCUP!!! My compactly built 5'2" Irish red head can put on a clinic shooting my 357's with my hottest 158 grain XTP loads. She's shot my 180 grain XTP loads, but says "They sting a little".

In all seriousness, your girl needs to shoot more. Stock up on 38's and let her blast away at "things" not paper. Things like tin cans, clay pigeons, golf balls, things that when you hit close to they move. Shooting paper is too "exact" and can ruin a good instinctive shooter like my m'issus is.

When she's comfortable with the 38's, amp it up a little at a time. Get her a glove. A pair of those mechanics gloves work and cut the fingers off at the second knuckle.

your post reminds me of my wife. When i first bought a super redhawk in 44mag, all i had was a box of factory 180's, she was the first one to shoot the revolver. Didn't bother her, which was not what i expected. Nobody had told her being a girl it would be uncomfortable to shoot.
she has always prefered heavier handguns, i think because it deadens the recoil.

'T m'issus is no Jesse Harrison, but I feel sorry for the bad'un that tests her mettle.

This

The buffalo bore 38sp +p outdoorsman loads push a hardcast 158gr Keith bullet at around 1200 fps. Should penetrate fine into a skull box and still be controllable.

Underwood also makes a 158 hard cast Keith load in 38 special, also at around 1200 fps. Buy both or either and go from there. Problem solved.