I have a new Bisley 44 mag with 3 3/4 barrel being returned from repair shortly for a crooked front sight.
The trigger was heavier than I prefer, so I was thinking about Wolf springs.
The factory spec is 23 pounds main spring, and 60 ounce hammer spring. Wolf sells various weights, but I think a 19 pound main spring and a 30 ounce hammer spring is most popular. I was thinking of the 19 and 40 ounce hammer, because the 30 ounce combo gives under 3 pounds according to a sampling on youtube.
I was hoping for around 3 pounds.
So what spring weight do you guys use and recommend?

I usually bend the factory trigger return spring to get a lighter pull, but leave the mainspring stock.

Here's a tutorial with some good visual on what the trigger return should (generally) look like, when you're done.

http://cylindersmith.com/triggerspring.html

The 'creep' in Ruger triggers is caused by a deep full-cock notch on the hammer. I correct that myself but freely admit I screwed one up before I got the feel for it. I think most people would be better off having it done by a revolver smith with experience on New Model Rugers. You can also get a hammer/trigger/spring kit from Power Custom that accomplishes the same thing w/o sending the gun off.

https://www.brownells.com/handgun-p...r-new-vaquero-trigger-kit-prod25444.aspx

As it turns out I went for a Sunday ride with the wife to a winery, by a big gunshop. Anyway I bought a new Bisley and it has a ton of creep. I hear the lighter springs make this perception worse, so it might be off to be honed down. I'll take it apart, clean it up, and probably mess with the hammer spring.

I like the 30 oz coupled with heavier, not lighter mainspring. In my experience a lighter mainspring leaves you with a mushy feeling trigger pull, where the heavier creates a snappier more crips feel as the hammer is falling harder/faster.

I don't mind the cost of having a gunsmith do the work .. not at all. I do object to the delay. Once I've paid for a new gun I don't want to wait 3-12 months while it sits in a gunsmith's "in box" awaiting attention.

I, too, "f-ed" my first one up and had to have a gunsmith repair my mess. I was trying to free-hand it. Since then I bought the alignment pins from Brownells so I can assemble the trigger/hammer on the side of the gun and view what changes are needed and how I am progressing. Moreover, I've kept as small stash of replacement triggers and hammers on hand .. 'cause eventually I'll probably foul one up again.

The 30 ounce return springs are good. I've used 17, 18, and 19 pound hammer springs with complete satisfaction. Wolff, Wilson, doesn't really matter, they all work well and improve the gun's handling quite a bit. Generally the aftermarket springs are longer than the Ruger factory spring. I tend to cut them to factory length which reduces them even further (Hooks law). I've done easily 3 dozen Ruger new model single actions w/o any misfires. While I'm in there, I polish the sear surface on the trigger to smooth it up but leave the shape / angles alone. I work over the sear notch on the hammer. To do this you really need either the Brownell's alighnment pins or Power Custom's jig.

I think my next adventure is to move on to double action .. maybe a GP100 ..

Tom

I bend the trigger springs to lighten but use over power Wolff hammer springs of 26# for dependable accuracy. Do not reduce the hammer spring. I get down to 19 oz and average 1-1/2# pulls on Rugers, BFR's.
The transfer bar can be too short for this and if your finger kicks to drop the bar you can get a hang fire or no fire. I make my own transfer bars to cover the pin.
I messed up once by heating a spot to fix fit and it broke. The whole bar must be hardened and tempered again. My SBH has shot with my bar for near 98,000 rounds now.
Pull the hammer to full cock and see how much the bar covers the pin. It should be near the top.

Making a bar by hand is not easy but I contacted Brownell's long ago and they might sell one to fit. These bars vary with each gun too. Be prepared of cost scare. Hardening and tempering is a must. Done right after a failure will teach you, like heating a spring to bend, it WILL break.
What is not understood is a weak hammer spring messes with ignition and accuracy goes south. A primer needs a certain impact. Shooting IHMSA I stopped hitting steel to find the hammer spring took a set. I bought Ruger springs by the dozen. The old spring was 1/2" shorter. I went to Wolff over power and still need a change after time.

Glad I asked. I guess there is no 100% right answer, but I read many times that it is best to leave the hammer spring alone.
I also read that just bending the trigger spring does wonders like the link Sarge provided. Since I have creep, it looks like the hammer spring modification cures some of that.
So when I get time I am going to try the trigger spring modification. I ordered three 40 ounce trigger springs from Wolf this morning. I thought that was better than the 30 ounce option, because 30s seemed to give trigger pulls way below 3 pounds. I figure if the 40 is too heavy I can try bending the tail end to lighten.

I can generally get New Models down to 3.5 pounds with little-no creep and no 'push-off'. I leave them right there and a lot of shooting burnishes the contact surfaces for a stable 3 pound, entirely safe and shootable trigger. I don't want or need anything lighter than that.

I love light triggers. Yesterday I shot my SBH to center the Ultra Dot for deer. I got 1" groups at 50 and last was in the bull. I put up a line of black walnuts on the rail. Dot is larger so I had to pan off and move back but I took all off with one shot each. Now I need to tape a walnut to a deer.
No creep and a clean break is good if a little more. Creepy and rough pulls are not good.

Wolf took over a week to ship the springs, so I just tried things out today. With a 41 Magnum Bisley from the 80's, I was getting 4.5 pounds on my Lyman digital trigger scale.
On the factory hammer spring I did the bends according to the "cylindersmith" link provided by Sarge. That brought the pull down to 3.5 pounds.
I then popped in the 40 ounce Wolf spring with no bends. It brought the pull down to 3 pounds 4 ounces, but it was really consistent compared to the bent factory spring. The bent spring varied by a couple ounces, and the wolf was very consistent.

On a separate Bisley in 44 special, the factory weight was 4 pounds 4 ounces, but with a bunch of creep. I did the factory bend trick, and since I gave the tail a fiercer bend it came down to 2.5 pounds. Even with the kink bend in the trigger side, the creep remained the same. At 2.5 pounds the creep is not as apparent if you take up the pressure quick. It is still as creepy if you purposely pull slowly. I did not try the Wolf springs in it yet. I bought 3 springs so I might spil one in to see if there is any difference in creep.

I am waiting on UPS to deliver my new 44 Magnum with 3 3/4 inch barrel. It went from the dealer, back to Ruger for a crooked front sight. I'll measure before and after Wolf spring on that one too when I get time. I imagine I'll put a small bend in the tail to get it a smidge below 3 pounds if it is like the Wold spring I installed in the 41 mag. I have to cut some grass while it is still light out, so maybe tomorrow.

To get rid of creep means you must remove some metal from the hammer, springs do not do it. A Ruger hammer can be filed or stoned. After you will have a sharp edge so just remove that edge with a swipe or two with a smooth stone, I like ceramic for it and to polish sear surfaces. Be careful to not change angles. I don't touch the triggers.

Good data Terry- thanks for going to the trouble.

I guess the first question is what is a 3-3/4" barrel on a ,44 mag good for? Flame, fire and no better then a .44 special +P. Recoil will increase to .500 levels.
I had a funny thing happen when shooting my BFR .475. 7-1/2". At 50 last week I had shots touching and adjusted to center. I found they were Lee 400 gr bullets. NOT mine. I found mine and shot this morning today the first shots touching and 2 clicks down got center. Many large calibers need 5-1/2" to 6" at least but I want at least 7-12". A real short barrel is a one shot at a bear since the gun will be 90 degrees up so you will never get another while the bear has your head in teeth.

I guess that velocity depends on the load. If you google short barrel 44 mag loads, probably 100 FPS compared to a 5 1/2 barrel. Seems like plenty of loads to get a 250 grain slug to 1250 fps, and for my area that will flop anything. Bears over 300 are pretty rare, and deer over 150 just as sparse.
I also carry a SW 329 PD lightweight pistol and it has a 2.5 inch barrel, same as the Ruger Redhawk Alaskan.

I saw a video on the same 3 3/4 Blackhawk where the Buffalo Bore 340 grain bullet (340 not 240) was going an average of 1231 FPS on the guys chronograph. 1140 FPE is enough to make it through the slats of a PA whitetail. A tad better than a 44 special. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xumQoyyIiLM

According to the "cylindarsmith" link, the springs can be bent two ways. Far end away from the trigger, adjusts weight, and a Z bend of the trigger side reduces creep. This is true in my experience, the Z bend reduces some creep. I also think the creep is reduced bu the spring diameter or friction. It seems the Wolf springs have less creep with or without the Z bend. I do think my 44 special Bisley flat top needs a stone, but that is on the back burner for now.
Pics below are from the cylindarsmith PDF.

That bend really does wonders and I also bend the legs that go around the pins.

Not so much the loss of power. 3 things happen though, first spin of the bullet is reduced, short guns are harder to aim and recoil goes way up.
I think spin is the most important for stability so ranges are shortened. 1/2 gr of powder can change things from a tiny group to center of elephant. I still think as barrels get short, twist should speed up. The DE has 1 in 18" and the BFR .44 has 1 in 16". Ruger is 1 in 20".
My old IHMSA SBH has a 10-1/2" barrel and I use my 330 gr bullet that needs 1316 FPS. I tried Unique to around 1100 FPS to get about 2' patterns. You can't burn a full load of 296/H110 in a short barrel.

Sorry I am not catching some of your points. Spin is due to twist, not barrel length. I don't think length has anything to do with stability given appropriate bullet hardness and rifling depth. In fact a slower bullet from a shorter barrel should need less twist. For example. a 1/60 twist is dandy in a 62 caliber flintlock with a 325 grain ball. In a typical flintlock barrel of 30-40 inches or so, the bullet does not make one complete spin. I think most would go to a 1/72 twist at 62 caliber, than 1/48. Anyway weight and hardness of the bullet are integral in the stability equation. Anyway for a 240 grain slug a 1/20 is dandy in any length.

Shorter guns may be easier to hold due to balance, so saying longer barrels are easy to hold is subjective. In some cases like match 22 rifles, shorter barrels reduce dwell time reducing the need for follow though. That is why they make sight extensions and keep barrel short. A person could also claim the weight of a BRF in any length is harder to hold, but again that is subjective. I know my wife can't hold a heavy pistol, but does better with lighter models.

Recoil is hard to define, but as the barrel gets shorter (with the same load) the bullet energy goes down. I think you stated the loss of power and said the level was 44 special-ish. So recoil should also be reduced proportionally. Of course shorter barrels usually mean less mass, so that is part of the real perception. Moment arm leverage is more for a longer barrel, so that causes more flip, but more mass helps dampen the flip. Lighter pistols kick more due to mass, and grip design has a lot to do with perceived recoil. With my paws, I feel less recoil in a Bisley than a plow handle. That is why I bought the 3 3/4 SBH, it came is a Bisley grip. I would have liked the 4.5/8 barrel better, that is why I just bought the 44 special 4 5/8 in a Bisley.

Spin depends on velocity so when you lose 100 fps spin is reduced. With my bullet if I lose 100 FPS I also lose 3600 RPMS. If I lose 200 FPS the loss is 7776 RPMS. Short barrels just do not burn all the powder.
You bring in a RB with a very short bearing surface but if you shoot Maxi Balls, 1 in 48 will handle them along with a RB. Now an inline for bullets in a sabot will go to 1 in 28" or so. The heavier and longer the bullet being shot from AR's are getting 1 in 7 to 1 in 8" rates.
Look at the 45-70 with most for hunting having 1 in 20 but for heavy BPCR bullets they will be 1 in 18, The BFR revolver has 1 in 14". Even with a 10" barrel it is extremely hard to find a powder that works. In fact only one powder does work, SR 4759. Out of production so I stocked up.

So you are saying all Ruger and SW short barrel handguns do not stabilize bullets because the bullet is going 100FPS slower? Say 1250 FPS with a 240 grain bullet. At what barrel length are SW model 29 useless?

For example I buy a box of factory 44 magnum 240 grain loads from Remington. These will not be stabilized because they are 100 FPS slower out of a 3 3/4 inch barrel compared to a 6 inch barrel? What about a 44 special in the same twist with much less velocity? Is the 44 special stabilized going 800 FPS with a 240 grain bullet since the twist rate is the same.?

I put the Wolf 40 ounce spring in the 44 Bisley today. I measured pull weight with a digital Lyman gauge, and the original spring was 3 3/4 pounds. The Wolf spring brought it down to 2 pounds 7 ounces. It had a small amount of creep with both springs. I then did the Z bend on the trigger side of the Wolf spring and remeasured. The weight was the same, and maybe the creep was a smidge less? It was hard to tell, but I think so.

I only did 3 blackhawks, so my sample size is pretty small to draw conclusions.
So with reserve, here is my limited summary.

Bending the factory spring is a huge improvement. The procedure only takes ten minutes, and the trigger pull have easily be reduced by a a pound or more by bending the frame side of the spring according to the cylindersmith link.
Really for most shooters this would be a great improvement and really worth the effort.

Bending a Z in the trigger side of the factory spring seems to reduce creep somewhat. This creep is also reduced slightly with the Wolf spring with or without the Z bend. So again I believe the cylindarsmith instructions in my guns.

I bought a 3 pack of the 40 ounce springs. Cost was a little under 30 bucks because they charge me tax/shipping. So each spring was 10 bucks or so, and the question is that worth the cost/effort? I think yes.
The pull weight seemed more consistent with the 40 ounce wolf, and the creep was slightly reduced. All 3 of my revolvers benefited, and only the 44 special needs some polishing to be excellent.
Wolf also sells a 30 ounce spring, and it may have advantages, but the 40 ounce springs I bought were pretty optimal for my taste.

By the way, Ruger did a pretty good job fixing up my new Bisley. The sight is straight now, and they fitted a new grip frame. The fit is excellent, but the stocks were not exact like most Rugers. Cylinder to barrel gap is super small. They did leave some polish/grit in the action, because cocking the revolver sound like they is a cup of sand in the action. That is pretty silly. Anyway when I get a chance I'll strip it down and clean and lube.
I also just bought a 44 special in a Bisley, and the fit and finish on it is excellent. Naturally it is a smaller frame, but it seems more refined. I think both exceed build quality from the late 80s 41 magnum Bisley in 41 magnum.

It is true so a special is better served with a lighter bullet. 800 FPS reduces you to 25 yards or less. A 1 in 20 can stabilize a 240 but in the mag it will be with 23.5 of 296 for certain bullets and 24 gr of 296 for the XTP. 1413 to 1522 FPS from 23 to 24 gr.
Now the truth about a S&W 29, rate is 1 in 18-3/4" and they shoot a 240 great but really wants a heavier bullet. But max weight will be around 265 gr as the parts break down with inertia from too much recoil.
I have worked with the .44 mag since 1956, That is 63 years and 98,000 rounds just from one revolver. 8 others have gone down the road.
If you can shoot 3/4" groups at 100 yards with a short special at 800 FPS you fell out of YouTube into cow dung.

Thanks for sharing all your experiences Great Grampaw, especially the ones you don't remember and the ones that never happened.

Funny how Remington's target load is 755FPS with a 246 grain bullet, similar to other manufactures.
So the answer is that as velocity decreases, the need for bullet spin goes down. So even in blackpowder days the revolver like the 45 LC or 44/40 could shoot past 25 yards.

Tag

I have had an open ended offer forever. Bring your guns here and shoot. Then choose any or all from my safe and YOU shoot them, not me. You will leave with a different opinion. My ammo boxes are there for you and you can shoot all you want since a dime a shot or a tad more for larger will not deplete my SS.
Some from other sites live close and came to shoot. I will teach every step and work on your Ruger free and make your S&W stop unlocking the cylinder. You will not see this again.

Just how do you figure you need less spin? Look down the short barrel and you see almost a straight land. It will take 20" for a full turn so the bullet must gain spin outside your barrel.
If you want to have fun, buy a Marlin .44 with a 1 in 38" twist. You have 2 or 3 years to get 100 yard groups.

It is called gyroscopic stability. You can do a google search and look at the formulas if you have the ability to cuff the math. Sorry to be rude, either you just don't understand, or tragically you probably know you are wrong but want to argue. I just did a quick search and this link looks pretty good because it breaks down stability factors, and the math is pretty simple. Basically less velocity needs less spin given other factors remain constant like air density and shape. https://bisonballistics.com/articles/bullet-stability
Sorry you don't gain spin outside the rifling, you don't need a full twist in a barrel length, I have no idea why you are stuck on that idea.
Saying things like a 44 special is not stable beyond 25 yards is really troubling. To say a 1250 FPS 240 grain bullet is not stabilized because it is too slow in a 44 magnum is troubling. To say Smith and Wesson, Colt, Ruger, and Freedom Arms don't know appropriate rifling rates is troubling.

Maybe you should actually read the article you posted.
It really is good and the point of poor accuracy is correct with over spin but only until the bullets settles to stability. Over spin can ruin close range groups but will shoot at ranges you can't see. I see you do not understand what you posted at all.
Now back up a little with twist. Freedom makes the .45 Colt and the .454 with a 1 in 24" twist. Ruger's .454 made the same mistake when the .45 Colt is 1 in 16" as is the BFR .454.
Marlin sent me the Greenhill formula to explain the 1 in 38" rate of the lever gun. A formula made for cannon balls. IT DOES NOT WORK!
No, you do not need a full turn as with a 20" barrel for a 1 in 20. But an almost straight land in short will not bring a 1 in 20 to full spin. I don't care if you push to extreme velocities it can't apply enough spin.

So a 44 special is still only good to 25 yards?
So a 3 3/4 barrel in 44 mag only had 44 special velocities?
A 3 3/4 barrel in 44 mag will not stabilize bullets?

I've owned a few 6" DA and 5 1/2" SA revolvers. None stayed long. I settled on 4" DA revolvers and single action with their barrels about even with the ejector rod housing. I have killed enough game with the shorter guns to convince me they work just fine.

I also lived several years next to a 240 acre field we could shoot over when the crops were out; so we stapled cardboard to an old pallet and set it upright on t-posts against a terrace at a known 550 yards. We then proceeded to walk shots onto it with the 4" Model 29, ala Elmer Keith. We used a 240 grain Sierra HP over whatever was 'book max' of H110, along with a lighter load using 9 grains of Universal under a cast 240 grain SWC. I didn't own a chronograph in those days but believe the Universal was doing about 950 fps.

We got on the pallet within a couple of cylinders of each load. Bullets from both loads were hitting the pallet straight on, of course in a downward path and punching through the first board with no problem. I reckon if they were stable at five football fields, they were stable for the whole trip.