Curious what you folks use, prefer in these:
HST and Non-bonded Rangers vs Bonded Rangers, Gold Dots, or PDX1
124 vs 147 ? 165 vs 180?
Personal EDC:
Underwood Xtreme Defender +P (all)
HST, Gold Dot and Ranger T series 147gr. (9mm)
HST +P, Gold Dot (.45ACP)
Train with 124gr +P HST, Gold Dot 124gr Gold Dot +P.
Is there much difference, I am curious too.
Each type of bullet has to be driven at a proper speed to achieve sufficient penetration and desired expansion. Small changes to the conditions can result in major variations in your results. Even changing barrel lengths by 2" can greatly affect results.
Since few of us have ever tested our gun/load combo's in human flesh, we are dependent on the testing conducted by others. I like the testing done by Lucky Gunner, and also the "meat target" used by Paul Harrell. Based on that, for my G19, I use Rem Golden Saber 124gr +P.
(And if you're bored, check out Lucky Gunner's test results for .357 Mag & .38 Spcl at look how the results differ when they shoot the same round through both 2" barrels and 4" barrels. It might make you wonder how your EDC round of choice is going to perform out of your gun.)
So, to stay on topic, bonded bullets seem to perform very well, but they don't, in and of themselves guarantee the results we want. Bonded bullets, like all bullets, have to be driven at a speed appropriate for the gun shooting them and the type of target they'll be hitting.
Is there much difference, I am curious too.
Golden Sabre remington 9MM +P loose a lot of weight the blended version doesn't.
The Hornady 135 grain +'P Critical Duty I don't believe s bonded yet it holds its weight
Golden Sabre remington 9MM +P loose a lot of weight the blended version doesn't.
I don't know your source, but I've not seen/read anything that says they lose enough weight to negatively affect their performance. Weight retention is irrelevant as long as the bullet penetrates and expands. Weight retention aids in penetration, but as long as the bullet "gets there," it doesn't matter what it weighs when it arrives.
From what I've read, bonded bullets are better for shooting through hard barriers (like a windshield) but otherwise, non-bonded bullets aren't inferior--look at Federal HST's. I've not shot them, but they are, apparently, an excellent choice.
I carry .40 with Winchester Ranger T 165gr (RA40TA).
Or a .357 M&P 340 in summer with Gold Dot Short barrel 135gr. (357, not 38 Spl.)
Golden Sabre remington 9MM +P loose a lot of weight the bonded version doesn't.
I don't know your source, but I've not seen/read anything that says they lose enough weight to negatively affect their performance. Weight retention is irrelevant as long as the bullet penetrates and expands. Weight retention aids in penetration, but as long as the bullet "gets there," it doesn't matter what it weighs when it arrives.
From what I've read, bonded bullets are better for shooting through hard barriers (like a windshield) but otherwise, non-bonded bullets aren't inferior--look at Federal HST's. I've not shot them, but they are, apparently, an excellent choice.
My source is my own experience. I didn't make a general statement, I mentioned what I have used and found to be true with the lot of bullet that I have.
You left out the part of my post about the Critical Duty that doesnt loose weight and isn't bonded.
Some times but not always in my experience a bullet that looses weight does penetrate well
I personally trust my experience over what I read YMMV
One thing to remember, civilians do not have to shoot through windshields, doors, walls, etc. A little clothing will be our biggest obstacle. You may indeed have to worry about over penetration.
Good stuff. Agree with all. Tests with HSTs are great and yes are not bonded. Speed is critical for all and yes barrel length is huge. Seen the tests by Lucky Gunner. Extensive. Also. Paul Harrell. His tests are popular. But I do question how you get consistent results in an inconsistent media. No doubt that’s what you get if you hit an animate object but I believe the denim and standardized Gel give a consistent media to compare.
Yes seen the old 124 +P Golden Sabers lose their jackets and separated from the core. Still very solid street results reported. It seems that bonded bullets sometimes expand a bit less, but open more consistently in tests I’ve seen.
No doubt all the above rounds have proven very effective and shot placement rules. But when you are choosing insurance, why not get the best you feel your money buys. All else equal. Thanks for all input. Others feel free to share your experiences and thoughts.
One thing to remember, civilians do not have to shoot through windshields, doors, walls, etc. A little clothing will be our biggest obstacle. You may indeed have to worry about over penetration.
I would make that assumption. A man from my home town shot 4 random people driving on hwy 165, if anyone of them had of returned fire they would have needed to have penetrated through a car door and or car glass
If one needs to defend himself while shopping shooting through a display rack is a very real possibility.
Over penetration is the least of your concerns, misses are the more realistic concern
Golden Sabre remington 9MM +P loose a lot of weight the bonded version doesn't.
I don't know your source, but I've not seen/read anything that says they lose enough weight to negatively affect their performance. Weight retention is irrelevant as long as the bullet penetrates and expands. Weight retention aids in penetration, but as long as the bullet "gets there," it doesn't matter what it weighs when it arrives.
From what I've read, bonded bullets are better for shooting through hard barriers (like a windshield) but otherwise, non-bonded bullets aren't inferior--look at Federal HST's. I've not shot them, but they are, apparently, an excellent choice.
My source is my own experience. I didn't make a general statement, I mentioned what I have used and found to be true with the lot of bullet that I have.
You left out the part of my post about the Critical Duty that doesnt loose weight and isn't bonded.
Some times but not always in my experience a bullet that looses weight does penetrate well
I personally trust my experience over what I read YMMV
Fair enough. So where does your own experience come from withe Rem GS's? Have you done gel testing? Shot human analogs (like pig carcasses)? Shot actual human bodies? I'm interested in your findings since I use GS (which is why I didn't mention Critical Duty ammo).
I'm really asking--I don't have any pride in this. I'm always ready to be corrected and learn. Thanks!
Golden Sabre remington 9MM +P loose a lot of weight the bonded version doesn't.
I don't know your source, but I've not seen/read anything that says they lose enough weight to negatively affect their performance. Weight retention is irrelevant as long as the bullet penetrates and expands. Weight retention aids in penetration, but as long as the bullet "gets there," it doesn't matter what it weighs when it arrives.
From what I've read, bonded bullets are better for shooting through hard barriers (like a windshield) but otherwise, non-bonded bullets aren't inferior--look at Federal HST's. I've not shot them, but they are, apparently, an excellent choice.
My source is my own experience. I didn't make a general statement, I mentioned what I have used and found to be true with the lot of bullet that I have.
You left out the part of my post about the Critical Duty that doesnt loose weight and isn't bonded.
Some times but not always in my experience a bullet that looses weight does penetrate well
I personally trust my experience over what I read YMMV
Fair enough. So where does your own experience come from withe Rem GS's? Have you done gel testing? Shot human analogs (like pig carcasses)? Shot actual human bodies? I'm interested in your findings since I use GS (which is why I didn't mention Critical Duty ammo).
I'm really asking--I don't have any pride in this. I'm always ready to be corrected and learn. Thanks!
I've shot barriers, wet pack, etc. These type test have always worked well for me in choosing a hunting bullet on game animals.
Never shot a human.
I find a few surprises on occasion, such as the winchester white box 147 grain flat point FMJ loosing integrity when shot into 1/8" steel plate yet the Golden Sabre bonded expanded and maintained its integrity. In my experience the bonded Golden Sabre penetrated a bit better than the non bonded. I value penetration.
The Critical Duty also maintained its integrity, that is why it doesnt always matter, just depends on the bullet
Since few of us have ever tested our gun/load combo's in human flesh, we are dependent on the testing conducted by others. I like the testing done by Lucky Gunner, and also the "meat target" used by Paul Harrell. Based on that, for my G19, I use Rem Golden Saber 124gr +P.
I haven't seen Harrell's tests, but based on the LG tests, Fed HST's, across the range of cartridges tested, significantly outperforms the Rem stuff for consistency no matter which version of the Golden Sabre's you might choose, IMO.
LG TestsMaybe Harrell's test show something different..............................
MM
I've shot barriers, wet pack, etc. These type test have always worked well for me in choosing a hunting bullet on game animals.
Never shot a human.
I find a few surprises on occasion, such as the winchester white box 147 grain flat point FMJ loosing integrity when shot into 1/8" steel plate yet the Golden Sabre bonded expanded and maintained its integrity. In my experience the bonded Golden Sabre penetrated a bit better than the non bonded. I value penetration.
The Critical Duty also maintained its integrity, that is why it doesnt always matter, just depends on the bullet
Good stuff! Thanks.
Since few of us have ever tested our gun/load combo's in human flesh, we are dependent on the testing conducted by others. I like the testing done by Lucky Gunner, and also the "meat target" used by Paul Harrell. Based on that, for my G19, I use Rem Golden Saber 124gr +P.
I haven't seen Harrell's tests, but based on the LG tests, Fed HST's, across the range of cartridges tested, significantly outperforms the Rem stuff for consistency no matter which version of the Golden Sabre's you might choose, IMO.
LG TestsMaybe Harrell's test show something different..............................
MM
I like gel tests and look at lots of them but, gell test do not tell the full story.
No heavy bone in gell onkybtests and no barriers, that is why I shoot barriers and hard objects to get s feel of how the bullets stands up that that abuse as well as gell tests
Since few of us have ever tested our gun/load combo's in human flesh, we are dependent on the testing conducted by others. I like the testing done by Lucky Gunner, and also the "meat target" used by Paul Harrell. Based on that, for my G19, I use Rem Golden Saber 124gr +P.
I haven't seen Harrell's tests, but based on the LG tests, Fed HST's, across the range of cartridges tested, significantly outperforms the Rem stuff for consistency no matter which version of the Golden Sabre's you might choose, IMO.
LG TestsMaybe Harrell's test show something different..............................
MM
In the 9mm tests, the GS 124 +P penetrated slightly better than the 150 HST's (18.3" vs 17.3") and expanded 0.05" less. Against the 124 HST's, the GS's penetrated 0.1" less and expanded the same. I figured that wasn't enough of a difference to make a difference, so I went with the GS's, because I could get them in my hands for about $0.40 per round vs $1.00 per round for the HST's. Since it is my life I'm protecting, I'd happily pay more if I thought I was getting more. But, we all have to decide for ourselves.
Since few of us have ever tested our gun/load combo's in human flesh, we are dependent on the testing conducted by others. I like the testing done by Lucky Gunner, and also the "meat target" used by Paul Harrell. Based on that, for my G19, I use Rem Golden Saber 124gr +P.
I haven't seen Harrell's tests, but based on the LG tests, Fed HST's, across the range of cartridges tested, significantly outperforms the Rem stuff for consistency no matter which version of the Golden Sabre's you might choose, IMO.
LG TestsMaybe Harrell's test show something different..............................
MM
In the 9mm tests, the GS 124 +P penetrated slightly better than the 150 HST's (18.3" vs 17.3") and expanded 0.05" less. Against the 124 HST's, the GS's penetrated 0.1" less and expanded the same. I figured that wasn't enough of a difference to make a difference, so I went with the GS's, because I could get them in my hands for about $0.40 per round vs $1.00 per round for the HST's. Since it is my life I'm protecting, I'd happily pay more if I thought I was getting more. But, we all have to decide for ourselves.
I agree the Golden Sabre 9mm is very good and the bonded version is slightly better IMO.
Most of the big name brand ammo is very good today, & all the choices are probably adequate.
From my experience with shooting game with various bullets & type, I try to avoid bullets that have a tendency to shed their jackets, & I see too much of that in the GS's in the testing vs the HST's, which simply do not seem to come apart in the various tests that I've seen, hence I lean toward them.
Waders, you can get 9mm 124 gr HST, either bonded or not, for 60 cents a round at SGAmmo & they almost always have them in stock.
MM
Most of the big name brand ammo is very good today, & all the choices are probably adequate.
From my experience with shooting game with various bullets & type, I try to avoid bullets that have a tendency to shed their jackets, & I see too much of that in the GS's in the testing vs the HST's, which simply do not seem to come apart in the various tests that I've seen, hence I lean toward them.
Waders, you can get 9mm 124 gr HST, either bonded or not, for 60 cents a round at SGAmmo & they almost always have them in stock.
MM
The Dolden Sabre +P does shed the jacket and loses a lot of weight. The Golden Sabre Bonded does not shed it's jacket and holds its weight
Since few of us have ever tested our gun/load combo's in human flesh, we are dependent on the testing conducted by others. I like the testing done by Lucky Gunner, and also the "meat target" used by Paul Harrell. Based on that, for my G19, I use Rem Golden Saber 124gr +P.
I haven't seen Harrell's tests, but based on the LG tests, Fed HST's, across the range of cartridges tested, significantly outperforms the Rem stuff for consistency no matter which version of the Golden Sabre's you might choose, IMO.
LG TestsMaybe Harrell's test show something different..............................
MM
In the 9mm tests, the GS 124 +P penetrated slightly better than the 150 HST's (18.3" vs 17.3") and expanded 0.05" less. Against the 124 HST's, the GS's penetrated 0.1" less and expanded the same. I figured that wasn't enough of a difference to make a difference, so I went with the GS's, because I could get them in my hands for about $0.40 per round vs $1.00 per round for the HST's. Since it is my life I'm protecting, I'd happily pay more if I thought I was getting more. But, we all have to decide for ourselves.
I agree the Golden Sabre 9mm is very good and the bonded version is slightly better IMO.
Good to hear. I use 230 gold dots in my 1911, but picked up some Ultimate Defense GS 124 bonded for 9.99 a box when Wally World was dumping them.
The Lehigh/Underwood Xtreme Defense OR Penetrators doesn't lose ANY weight, never separates and will go through barriers, clothing and makes a bloody big hole in...uh...meat.
The Lehigh/Underwood Xtreme Defense OR Penetrators doesn't lose ANY weight, never separates and will go through barriers, clothing and makes a bloody big hole in...uh...meat.
Seems to be an extremely good choice, I will try some in my 357 sig
The Lehigh/Underwood Xtreme Defense OR Penetrators doesn't lose ANY weight, never separates and will go through barriers, clothing and makes a bloody big hole in...uh...meat.
Seems to be an extremely good choice, I will try some in my 357 sig
It is what I am using in just about anything I carry...but I'm a SpeedFreak....
The Lehigh/Underwood Xtreme Defense OR Penetrators doesn't lose ANY weight, never separates and will go through barriers, clothing and makes a bloody big hole in...uh...meat.
That is true, but they don't penetrate as well as hardcast. If you want "extreme penetration" - don't use the fancy brass bullets.
My one experience with the std. Golden Saber was out of a hot loaded 38 Super on a dinky deer. It penetrated well but despite two holes through the front of the lungs, the deer was hard to find and made it about 500 yards.
The Lehigh/Underwood Xtreme Defense OR Penetrators doesn't lose ANY weight, never separates and will go through barriers, clothing and makes a bloody big hole in...uh...meat.
That is true, but they don't penetrate as well as hardcast. If you want "extreme penetration" - don't use the fancy brass bullets.
"Fancy brass bullets"???
Continue using hardcast in your 9mm...study up, genius!
The Lehigh/Underwood Xtreme Defense OR Penetrators doesn't lose ANY weight, never separates and will go through barriers, clothing and makes a bloody big hole in...uh...meat.
That is true, but they don't penetrate as well as hardcast. If you want "extreme penetration" - don't use the fancy brass bullets.
"Fancy brass bullets"???
Continue using hardcast in your 9mm...study up, genius!
Read and learn feucktard.
I use cast bullets in .44s, .45s, .480s and 45-70s, BUT, two legged predators are not made of ballistic gel, you deliberately stupid moron...neither are the bears up here, rocking chair genius.
Go back to your airsoft game. You're not ready for firearms that grownups use.
I run Federal LE HST 124gr +P in my 9 and the LE HST 230gr +P in my .45 acp
That'll do.....................ditto for me but standards, not +P version.
MM
I use cast bullets in .44s, .45s, .480s and 45-70s, BUT, two legged predators are not made of ballistic gel, you deliberately stupid moron...neither are the bears up here, rocking chair genius.
Go back to your airsoft game. You're not ready for firearms that grownups use.
Your tiny brain hinders your ability to learn - typical.
Beta smart, or alpha stupid - your choice.
I run Federal LE HST 124gr +P in my 9 and the LE HST 230gr +P in my .45 acp
Good choices.
After my phone call yesterday with JWP475 yesterday, I'm thinking of switching to either HST's or Critical Duty. (I realized I might need to shoot through a car door or a car window in my most likely scenario of needing my gun. A round good through barriers would be a plus!)
Okay, beta stupid....obviously you need to study up on ammunition. Using your keyboard is no compensation for your continued lack of knowledge...but, that is how you'll stay. Sad.
Okay, beta stupid....obviously you need to study up on ammunition. Using your keyboard is no compensation for your continued lack of knowledge...but, that is how you'll stay. Sad.
Lame. At least try.
I run Federal LE HST 124gr +P in my 9 and the LE HST 230gr +P in my .45 acp
Good choices.
After my phone call yesterday with JWP475 yesterday, I'm thinking of switching to either HST's or Critical Duty. (I realized I might need to shoot through a car door or a car window in my most likely scenario of needing my gun. A round good through barriers would be a plus!)
I switched over to them about a year ago I think. Every day or any day, I may come across a Bear, Gator, Coyote, Wild Hog (and we have some BEEEG ones) pissed off Pit Bull, or a Tweeker out of control, so these HST's seemed like the best all around choice for me!
I can purchase them at Target Sports USA fairly inexpensively as they often run Sales on them! If you buy case lots shipping is free. I also take advantage of their "Prime" membership. It works just like Amazons, pay $99 a year, and you get an automatic 8% reduction is price, and FREE shipping on ALL orders, no matter how big, or small! Gives me the ability to order a couple boxes of different ammunition to try in different things without order a huge amount. Quite fond of the arrangement.
Frog---OUT!
I can purchase them at Target Sports USA fairly inexpensively as they often run Sales on them! If you buy case lots shipping is free. I also take advantage of their "Prime" membership. It works just like Amazons, pay $99 a year, and you get an automatic 8% reduction is price, and FREE shipping on ALL orders, no matter how big, or small! Gives me the ability to order a couple boxes of different ammunition to try in different things without order a huge amount. Quite fond of the arrangement.
I am also a Prime member. I love it for all the reasons you've mentioned!
I've thought about joining prime but target is often out 9f stock of what I'm looking for. What have they sent you guys for your free gift?
Bb
What have they sent you guys for your free gift?
I got a mid-size plastic ammo box with their logo on it, some CCI Mini Mags, a box of .357 Hydra-Shoks, and something else. It was all stuff that was very relative to the types of things I order. Not worth a whole bunch, but also very appreciated since they don't have to do that.
Bottom Line: Don't join Prime for the gift. Join if you want to place 15 ammo orders per year, get an 8% discount and free shipping.
Good info folks.
Agree with you JWP, penetration is first, have to reach the target.......
What have they sent you guys for your free gift?
I got a mid-size plastic ammo box with their logo on it, some CCI Mini Mags, a box of .357 Hydra-Shoks, and something else. It was all stuff that was very relative to the types of things I order. Not worth a whole bunch, but also very appreciated since they don't have to do that.
Bottom Line: Don't join Prime for the gift. Join if you want to place 15 ammo orders per year, get an 8% discount and free shipping.
My free gift was a NEW Metal ammo box, with a keychain, decals and a box of 9 mm ammo inside. As stated, I believe they use your order history to select something for you. Frankly, being able to order at will with free shipping and the 8% discount more than makes up for the cost. Hell, split the cost with a relative or friend and it makes it even more of a bargain!
For instance, I just ordered a 2 brick batch of Armscor .22LR 36 gr hp to try out an as it was free shipping, the cost was only $.03 a round....my guns appear to like it and at that price, it's inexpensive plinking hunting ammo. I wouldn't have wanted to order a full case to get free shipping, not knowing how it performed.
Meh, I see a trend. Guys are running +p, +p+. Why not just step up to the 357 Sig.
Meh, I see a trend. Guys are running +p, +p+. Why not just step up to the 357 Sig.
+P 9mm ammo penetrates deeper than +P+ because the bullets over expand at the higher speed of the +P+. The 357 bullets are designed for the added velocity. The 357 Sig looses 2 rounds of magazine capacity to the 9mm, the same as the 40 S&W does.
Meh, I see a trend. Guys are running +p, +p+. Why not just step up to the 357 Sig.
+P 9mm ammo penetrates deeper than +P+ because the bullets over expand at the higher speed of the +P+. The 357 bullets are designed for the added velocity. The 357 Sig looses 2 rounds of magazine capacity to the 9mm, the same as the 40 S&W does.
THIS
The added velocity of +P or the .357 Sig is more about barrier penetration.
Meh, I see a trend. Guys are running +p, +p+. Why not just step up to the 357 Sig.
+P 9mm ammo penetrates deeper than +P+ because the bullets over expand at the higher speed of the +P+. The 357 bullets are designed for the added velocity. The 357 Sig looses 2 rounds of magazine capacity to the 9mm, the same as the 40 S&W does.
THIS
The added velocity of +P or the .357 Sig is more about barrier penetration.
The 357 Sig bullets are tougher than the 9mm bullets and not suffer from over expansion
Good info folks.
So GunGeek and JWP, which round do you prefer?
Good info folks.
So GunGeek and JWP, which round do you prefer?
I carried a 1911 45 ACP in +P and 45 Super for decades but have switched to 9mm for more capacity
I've been carrying 2 different loads 125 grain +P Bonded in my P365 and Hornady 136 grain +P Critical Duty in P320 X Carry
I goi g to get a P320 in 35u Sig and give it a whirl with the Underwood 125 JHP at an advertised 1475 FPS. I've watched a couple of videos on YouTube that they choreographed them at 1500+. That will leabd a mark that won't buff out.
Lots of good info for the most part. Curious: Any opinions regarding Win Bonded .45 Auto PDX1 230gr JHP ammo? Thanks.
Meh, I see a trend. Guys are running +p, +p+. Why not just step up to the 357 Sig.
For me the difference is about shooting faster accurately. If you're considering a cartridge in terms of a single shot that's different, I've got a 460 S&W for that. For a carry gun though, in comparable guns (Glocks in my case) and loads I can shoot +P+ 9mm faster with the same level of accuracy compared to 357 Sig. And in my case, that's even with a slight advantage to the 357 since mine is in the larger G22 frame with an extended G35 barrel, comparing to 9mm in a G19. Both have RMR red dot sights and both are capable of excellent accuracy.
With that said, I wouldn't look down on anyone carrying the 357 Sig. It's a great cartridge with some definite advantages in trajectory and power. I prefer the 90gr Lehigh Defender in either cartridge; either Underwood or equivalent handloads. That does ~1525 fps in my G19 (9mm +P+) while being easier to shoot than their +P+ 124gr Gold Dot load, and ~1750 fps in the 357 Sig although I've found it easy to exceed that with handloads in the 357.
As a side note - I tested both extensively in barriers, test media, and meat/bone, and much prefer the 90gr over the 65gr version of the same. The 65gr was FAST (over 1850 fps in my G19) but did not penetrate nearly as well in soft media or meat, being approximately similar in penetration to the 115gr Barnes which IMO doesn't penetrate all that well. It was good for punching through hard plate though with it's high velocity. IMO the 90gr seems a better compromise of penetration vs speed, trajectory, and follow up shot speed compared to heavier bullets.