OK, guys, an accuracy/cleaning question.

I've had my CZ452 for quite sometime. It'll still shoot 3/8" groups at 50 yds with cheapo bulk Remington Golden Bullets. As suggested on rimfirecentral.com, I've thoroughly cleaned the barrel after each range session with the rifle. I have to admit, it is still holding its accuracy very well.

However, several 22rf rifle manufacturers have suggested that 22rf barrels should not be cleaned often, or even at all. I have 10-22 barrels that do not get cleaned and shoot as well as 10-22 barrels do.

What say you? Should the CZ452 be cleaned after each range session until the bore glistens, or just leave it fouled?

Anyone ACTUALLY try it both ways? If so, what were your results?

Thanks.

I have a 453CZ that I traded for a few months ago. It was used but appeared unfired. I scrubbed the bore with J.B. before firing and haven't touched it since. I need to get it to a good solid bench with different ammo to see what it will really do, but CCI Mini Mag H.P. will stay under 1/2" at fifty from a shaky "bench". Velocitors seem to do even better. The rifle has probably better than 700 rounds through it since I bought it. YMMV.

Dave.

I'm a clean the barrel regularly for 22 Rimfire rifles guy.
The only issue with regular cleaning of these barrels is you will have to fire a number or rounds after cleaning to "season" the barrel with the bullet lube of the ammo you are shooting. No big deal, as it only takes about 10 or 15 rounds to do so. Accuracy will not be best till the seasoning is done. The same holds for changing brands of ammo, even without cleaning in between.
I have a problem with my CZ 452 and the rod that I'm using. CZ 22 Rimfire bores are undersize, and the first time I tried cleaning the barrel, when it was new, my rod stuck in the bore... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Fortunately, I was able to get it out with no adverse effect on the bore. Now, I use a 17 caliber rod which runs through easily.

Don

I tend to be one of the "clean after every range session" guys. That said, don't over clean it. I use a Parker Hale plastic coated rod and Shooters Choice for all my cleaning, particularly my .22. You also have to clean the dirt from the plastic rod coating to avoid excess wear on the barrel from the accumulated grit on the rod.
Target shooters, using only subsonic wax coated lead bullets, often leave the guns alone for ages without cleaning. Some guns respond much better to frequent cleaning. It just shows that guns are individuals.

06

When I bought my 452 the dealer told me to run a brush through the bore after each shot. He said this "seasoning"
improved accuracy.

Since I didn't know any better and had the time I "seasoned" the barrel as prescribed.

It shoots good but I don't know if it's any better than if I hadn't "seasoned" the barrel.

It was a fun afternoon anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well,

I'd never heard of "seasoning" any 22rf bore, only on muzzleloaders. So, I did not season mine. I just shot it. My first range session resulted in outstanding groups at 50 yds (less than a half inch). Since the 452 shooters of rimfirecentral.com deemed cleaning the 452 a must, I cleaned it well. (This is the only 22 rf I have that I clean. The others get cleaned when the action suffers.)

Anyway, the gun certainly maintains its accuracy. I was just wondering if cleaning the 452 so judiciously was warranted. Maybe I'm just getting a bit lazy in my older years. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I never clean .22s until they start to lose accuracy. Sometimes this happens after ebout 500 rounds, sometimes less, and sometimes I don't shoot enough thru a particualr rifle to know.

I would also add that it takes a number of rounds thru the barrel for it to reach maximum accuracy. If you clean the barrel after ever use, you'll probably never reach that point.

Most of the time the problem is in the chamber rather than the bore. In "Precision Rifle" a .22 builder said that prolonged firing can build up a "donut" of lead and fouling in the chamber where the bullet sits before firing. Firing liquifies some lead and also some gunk. Eventually, this can grow so, while not visible, it actually swages the bullet.

Now, he's talking about match chambers. Ordinary chambers probably aren't tight enough to show a difference.

That wax and stuff on the bullet makes it practically rust proof in the bore. Another good reason not to clean.

I think the Nylon 66 that they shot for record (actually, 3 of them) were shot something like 500,000 between the three with no cleaning at all. Or lubrication, for that matter.

In my personal opinion which seems to be contrary to others, a bronze brush and a cleaning rod does far more damage than a lead bullet.

I won't shoot bullets that aren't waxed or otherwise coated. A .22 Mag is a different story, though.

A fried of mine finally cleaned his 10/22 for the first time after 40 years of use. Actually, I cleaned it because it was starting to misfire. After cleaning it ran like a top. No difference in groups size.

I have one CZ that hasn't been cleaned in a couple of years. It shoots very well indeed. I trying to answer the selfsame question - how often do you need to clean.

I have yet to clean my 17HMR, but that has more to do with needing to get another 17 rod.

I read the Precision Shooting article Gene is referring to, and my take on it was that the author was saying each rifle is unique, and when accuracy begins to falls off, the rifle is telling you it needs cleaning. My main target .22 shows leading sometimes. I suspect certain brands off ammo, and I'm referring to unplated lead bullets, but I haven't kept records well enough to check it out. These days I'm leaning toward the "less cleaning is better" school of .22 maintenance.

Paul

The match bullets by Ely and also by Wolf (great rounds, by the way) are, I believe, unplated but greased. Or if they are, they're plated with something that looks like lead. The lube is also different than most high-velocity bullets...less waxy and more greasy.

They don't reach a leading velocity.

What is leading velocity? I've never heard of that one. Like I said, I have shot a variety of target velocity .22 ammo, and have experienced leading, although I can't attribute it to any particular brand. I shoot a lot of BPCR, which involves relatively soft bullets at about 1150 to 1300 fps. Leading can be an issue, and it usually involves bullet lubricant failure. Bullet-to-bore fit, high ambient temperature and, of course, bore roughness can also contribute to leading. From my limited knowledge of shooting lead bullets in modern center fire arms, I understand that leading is a problem at higher velocities, but .22s and BPCRs are well under that speed.

Paul

I only shoot lead bullets, with lube. The ammo I shoot is mostly subsonic, so no worry about leading. I never shoot the copper washed stuff.
The main concern for cleaning 22 target rifle bores is the dreaded carbon ring that develops just ahead of the chamber. For best accuracy, that needs to be removed.
Seasoning the bore with the ammo you'll be shooting will give you best accuracy with that ammo.
When changing from one ammo brand to another, another 10-20 rounds will be needed to reseason the bore for the new ammo.

I shoot 22 Rimfire benchrest, so I want the best accuracy I can get from a target rifle.
I do have a Nylon 66 that I never clean. I just use it for shooting tin cans.

Don

I don't know what leading velocity is, but I don't think it's at .22 velocities. In addition to velocity, the heat behind the bullet isn't as much of a factor. I've leaded plenty of .38 Special barrels at less velocity than a 22 LR. So it depends.

If your barrel is leading, rather than building up wax and grease, I'd suspect a rough bore. Or a rough spot. Never had a .22 that leaded, even with High Velocity ammo.

Cleaning can cause a rough spot, which is another good reason to limit it. As DMB said, it's usually the chamber anyway. An aluminum cleaning rod, a too-tight patch, and a bronze brush can rough up the bore.

For those who MUST clean after each range session, I'd suggest you try not cleaning until you reach maximum accuracy. That should last for a couple of hundred rounds, maybe. Then clean it, start the seasoning program again.

It works. Although with a 10-22, the accuracy just isn't there to notice a difference.

I am a big CZ fan (four 452s and a 513 Basic). After observing the above problem for quite some time, I don't think it is a matter of bore diameter. If you CZ 452 owners will take a look from the back of the receiver the next time your bolt is out, you will notice that the ejector actually extends out into the bore line slightly. The resistance is derived from the ejector rubbing on the .22 size rods. It will scratch an aluminum or plastic coated or even a softer steel rod badly. Weakness of the breed. If you want to test this theory mechanically rather than just visually, try this the next time your are cleaning your CZ 452 from the breech. Just bend the rod slightly to the right as you push it forward (not a habit to repeat on a regualr basis - but just this once). It will slide forward with far less resistance.

The .17 rod is a good solution. I have heard of some lucky folks that have a .20 cal. (5mm) rod. That would be optimal. Somebody has recommended removing the ejector every time one cleans (that solution is not for me).

This is my first post here. Great site.

Danny

My favorite CZ:


She has done more than one 25 yard USBR 250 but all I have a picture of is this 249-8X.


Oh, and I clean after about every 200 rounds or anytime I shoot any number of plated bullets.

Danny,

Thanks for the info. I never thought to look at the ejector as the culprit.

Don

I don't have a CZ 452 but my son does. I don't recall whether the ejector moves down, or not. I know it does on his Kimber, so using a bore guide keeps it out of the way of the cleaning rod. He also has a bore guide for the 452, but I don't know how it works with the ejector. In any event I'd recommend using a bore guide with any .22 for which one is available.

Your rifle will answer that question for you. After 200-300 rounds the accuracy of my Anschutz 1415 goes away until it's cleaned. A couple of my friends have CZ .22's and claim they are the most accurate .22's they've ever owned. Good shooting.

The bore guide usage in a CZ 452 will actually intensify the problem because your rod cannot flex. Best to get a 5mm (.20 cal rod)or a .17 cal rod or remove the ejector when you clean whether you use a bore guide or not.

Ive tried it both ways and cant tell any difference except after a good cleaning most of my rifles take 8 or 10 shots before they start turning in their best accuracy, since this is no big deal and I cant stand to leave my rifle barrels dirty I always clean mine (lightly)

The CZ's do have a tight bore. Normal rimfire tooling (e.g. pilots) will not fit. Ask any smith who has tried to use a rimfire pilot on the CZ. Tooling manufacturers are addressing this problem with tooling specificlly for CZ's.

Never ever 'clean' a 22 LR barrel unless there is a really good reason. On my 40X gallery gun I never clean it. To great a chance of screwing up the crown.