If you want to prove what a poor performer the .22 mag really is, let me give you a do it yourself test. You will find that the lowly .22lr will out penetrate the .22Mag. And does it a whole bunch cheaper.

What you need for this test is a piece of hardwood and a saw to slice the the hard wood in half.

You will want to draw a line down the center of your test wood for a saw line and as a target. Now you will shoot one round of each, .22 mag and one .22lr. Cut down the center to see the track of each bullet. Use the same weight bullet for both rifles. Same angle.

Since I tried this, the only .22mag I own is a collector, hard to find Winchester M-61. It's never been shot once since I bought it.


Fun test, sure helps once you try it, saves ammo costs.

It isn't always the weight of the bullet that determines the depth of penetration but the design of the bullet . The 22 mag will kill much better than the 22 Lr at any distant .

A full metal jacket penetrates better than an expanding bullet, too. There is more to bullet and cartridge performance than penetration. There is a lot of difference on the performance on ground squirrels, for example. They die with the the .22 LR HP, but the .22 mag HP is much more "demonstrative."

I'll take a 22 MRF over a 22 LR for field use 100% of the time.

I've shot more than a few deer during herd reduction shoots with a variety of 22 MRF rifles and think that the 22 MRF has a lot going for it as a survival/live-off-the-land cartridge.

Jeff

This is the result of firing a .22MRF out of a NNA mini revolver at about 5 feet away! Folks, that's a piece of soft yellow pine. This pistol belonged to my brother in law and was promptly sold at the pawn shop on the way home from this shooting session.

.22 Mag fans, PLEASE DON'T GET DEFENSIVE! This is more of a testament to the inadequacy of the NNA mini revolver than the .22 magnum. If you have one of these pistols take heed.



.22LR sitting next to it because we shot up all the .22Mag ammo.


Terry

Why I gave up the 22 mag?

Simple. It's called 17 HMR. (For my purposes, anyway. Your mileage may vary.)

Kentucky_Windage: You are ABSOLUTELY right on!
The 17 HMR has completely killed new gun sales for arms in 22 Magnum! said sales are now "next to nothing".
I have used various 22 Magnums, 22 Specials, 22 Auto's and such for decades!
Once the 17 HMR came along and I got one year of range and field use with it I simply "hung up" my 22 Magnums (both Rifles and pistols!)!
The 17 HMR is so vastly superior to the 22 Magnum in EVERY regard that unfortunately I see the day coming when 22 Magnums will no longer be produced.
The main attributes that the 17 HMR ammunition and arms have that make it superior to the 22 Magnum are its enhanced accuracy, its flatter trajectory, its significant velocity advantage (speed kills!), its enhanced rotational speed (this also enhances lethality), its straighter flight in wind and the main attribute of which all the previous attributes contribute is the significant advantage in lethality of the 17 HMR vs the 22 Magnum - there is simply NO comparison when trying to compare the 17 HMR to the old technology 22 magnum.
Long live the new King of Rimfires the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Funny on anything more voracious than paper my .22WMR kills better than the .17HMR my friend has. We tried it. Yes the .17 is flatter by a bit, and yes it's sub MOA and my .22 mag is just MOA. Still when the push comes to shove 30+ grains beats 17 to 20 every time.

Except you'll make shots with the 17 that you don't have a snowflake's chance in Hades of making with a 22 mag. downrange. And the 17 kills just fine if you limit its use to appropriate game. Not sure what you mean by "kills better." On what? And how much better, since dead, as they say, is dead?

I guess my mileage varies.

I've used the .22 Mag on all sorts of animals for over 35 years. Besides being a little destructive on small edible game I think it is, as 260RemGuy says a good candidate for a survival scenario. FWIW I use 22 WRF for small game when I can get it.

22 Mag solids both Winchester and Federal will routinely penetrate a fencepost. 22 LR roundnoses will not.

I'm not sure what .22 Mag load you used on the board, I assume a lightweight HP.

The Winchester 40 gr HP has held together in shoulder bones and still penetrated to the far hide.

Anyway my experience has been a little different than yours. I hope you give the round another try some time.

HOLY CRAP! I would have never thunk it! Those tiny barrels must really kill the velocity more than I would have guessed.

So everybody has and opinion, but nobody cares to make a test?

This comes as a real shock to me. Oh, the power of advertising.

I have to agree with you. I have been shooting a 22 Mag for over 40 years but when the 17 HMR came out I bought one. It was impressive on paper but in the field the Mag wins.

What kind of test would you suggest, shooting through a block of wood or one out in the field where it really counts?

Gee, let me think, how about the one I proposed that started this thread. I have killed moose, walrus, deer and elk. With a .22Lr. What do you want to compare the .22 mag with? Do the test and you tell me which bullet penetrated better?

I'd be interested in some more information on the circumstances when you killed all those big game animals with a .22 and which round you used. I don't doubt your word, but most of us will never have the opportunity to shoot all those species, even with a larger caliber rifle.

Norm

It was my understanding that the 22 magnum required a barrel lenght of as least 12 to 14 inches to develop enough velocity to ballistically out-perform the 22 long rifle. As a result, the 22 magnum was not efficient in most revolvers. However, I don't have the numbers to support this idea.

North American Arms has some info on the 22LR & 22 Mag in pistol barrels.

The 22 mag has an advantage from bullet construction, at least with the Winchester jacketed loads.

I don't usually hunt blocks of wood, but I do blast lengths of 4x4 as knock-down targets with a shotgun at 3-gun matches. Based upon that, given the 12 ga's lack of penetration compared to a .22 LR, the 12 ga is worthless. (Even though it knocks them flying a whole lot better than a .22 LR.) I fail to see the relationship between shooting blocks of wood with disparate bullet types as a measure of hunting effetiveness between a .22 LR and a .22 Mag.

I have killed several types of game with the mag., deer being the largest. 22 mag wins hands down. miles

When I had the time and the space to hunt squirrels, I
had a Marlin 22WMR bolt action that I used with solid point
bullets for headshots, hollow points were very destructive.
Ah, those were the days.

The problem with the 22LR and the 17HMR is that neither are legal for turkey hunting here. The 22WMR is......as for me I like the cartridge!

Camp meat with a 22 MWR 651.....and yes hens are legal here in the fall. We are overrun with them!

Norm, this isn't a testament to the WMR, or even the LR. It does illustrate penetration in "big" game with .22 RF ammo though.





Personally I'm of the opinion that the WMR serves two purposes well. It is short to mid range effective on a wide variety of varmints with soft nose ammo. In competent hands it will take much larger game with proper placement but FMJ bullets may be called for due to its higher velocity than standard .22 RF ammo. Not addressing the legality, just lethality. I don't think most shooters dwell on the point much, but the .22 RF, in all iterations, is much under rated in that department.

If you want more pictures of different hogs I've got about 25-30 or so..........I don't do deer with RFs but could if I desired. I'm guessing if it will kill a hog it will kill a deer or a....bear?

http://www.angelfire.com/on2/LandOwner/misc/Grizley1.html

I have heard, but can't cite a source, that a 22 MRF round fired from a revolver with a 6" barrel has more muzzle velocity than a 22 LR High Velocity round fired from a 20" rifle barrel. My experience with the 22 Magnum fired from a revolver is that it is both effective and efficient, same/same from a rifle.

Jeff

the north american revolver in either 22LR or 22Mag is a BELLY gun a last resort weapon in a bad situation stick it in the other guys belly or better yet his ear- neither of these rounds are any where near the advertised velocity from this length barrel they won't drop a bad guy except if applied directly to the forehead- but they will get him off you. if we are talking personal protection then no neither 22's are good if we are talking small game, varmints I rank um 22mag=larger animals@200 yds.or less. 17hmr= smaller animals@ 150 yds. or less.too much wind effect-22LR= rabbit squirrels smaller stuff@ 100 yds or less

After seeing the penetration qualities of this little revolver first hand, I have no doubt a person would be much better served with a very short pocket knife!

Terry

Terry thank you for posting that picture. I have one of them but have always known that they were very poorly acurate. Now as Paul Harvey says...the rest of the story. I will not sell mine but I am sure going to leave it home...

LMAO... My only 'test' so far on the .22mag is the fact that I can't hit zip using it in my Ruger Single Six Convertible..

I've had a couple of 22mags over the years and never got the hots for it.. Sold the only rifle I had (Marlin 922) and just keep the Ruger because of the .22rf cylinder.. Topped with a small red-dot sight, it's a gopher-killer..

That sure looks like a LR lead projectile stuck in that board.

I've chronographed Magnum ammo from a NAA years ago and it was hitting more than 1,100 fps; equivalent to most std velocity .22 LR rounds.

The fellow with the Ruger Single Six needs to try a variety of loads. Mine never shot worth a poot till I tried WW Supreme 34 grain loads, which shoot into .75 @ 25 yards with iron sights. Recently tried WW Dynapoints (cheapest .22 WMR at Wally) and it shoots into 1-inch.

Getting ready to finally get both .22 WMR and a .17 HMR rifles; each is great for what they need to be shot at.

In order to duplicate your "test" I would like to know the brands of ammunition you used. You mentioned using the same bullet weight but you did not mention bullet construction. While most .22 LR ammunition is more or less some lead alloy, there is a difference in plated and unplated bullets as to pentetration. Likewise, there is a great deal of difference in the composition of .22 Magnum bullets. There are full metal jackets, Jacketed Hollowpoints and then plated bullets.

Also, there is quite a bit of difference in weight and toughness of what is considered "hardwood." Aspen for example, is much softer than white oak or hickory.

Scientific method depends on being able to repeat the experiments of others. Without the exact components, repeatability is out of the question.

While on the subject of testing medium, gallon milk jugs filled with water are also interesting as they may give an idea of bullet expansion as well as penetration.

All of this is good fun.

Yeah, I made up the entire story and faked the pictures. (sarcasim)

Everybody knows the NNA mini revolver puts the "M" in magnum (more sarcasim)

Terry

For a test to be valid, it needs to be repeated a number of time, with everything kept the same, so that the test will be representative of the universe. It has been 25 years since I was in grad-school, but IIRC, my probability and statistics prof taught us that the minimum number of repetitions to get a representative sample was 30.

If your test has a sample size of 1, it isn't statistically relevant.

Besides, since I'm not shooting any 22 MRFs with barrels shorter than 4", I'm quite sure that a 22 MRF bullet fired from any of my rifles or revolvers will penetrate better than the same bullet fired from a 22 LR, assuming all other factors are equal.

Jeff

The problem with the barrel is it's smooth (no rifling) and probably over-bored. Nothing more than a guide for the bullet to bump down until it reaches the end. The barrel does absolutely nothing to increase velocity.

Terry

I'm calling B.S. I have shot my NAA 22 mag at 2X4s and it blasts right through. I think maybe 2 of them. I don't know what kind of ammo you used ,but that is a B.S. test you did. I am going to test several diff. types of ammo and post results. All I know is that I don't want to be on the other end of one, and its better than standing there with just your rod in your hand. Mark.

It wasn't a "test." There was a target stapeled to that 1"X2" stake and I was shooting at it from about 5' back. I honestly don't care what you do or what "results" you manage to come up with when you do your test. I already know what the little gun will do. I happen to have a picture or the results and shared it with the more open minded here.

Why in the hell would I even need to make up something like that? Not my gun, I've never even owned one. My brother in law had the little gun and I shoot it, took the pictures and you see the results. Some of you need to grow up a little.



Here's an idea, go buy a real gun.

You don't like it? Who cares.

Terry

I am officially puzzled. A .22 WMR from a snubby sticks in wood like a dart and CB shorts fully penetrate a 250# boar's skull, front to rear. The Gods must be crazy.

One has a barrel and the other doesn't. It makes a huge difference in velocity. Take the skull and move it to 10ft out and the test becomes null and void because you wouldn't be able to hit it with the NNA revolver.

Terry

I'll see if I can get one to stand still for that. They usually get skittish around 10'. Or maybe it's me?

I take it these aren't city hogs eh? (joke)

Oh...

Mini Master .22 Magnum at 5-10-25 YARDS...not feet.



5-10 yards groups...



25 yard group...




Black Widow... .22 Magnum

5-10-25 yards





Those targets were all 5 shots at each listed distance...this was 15 shots raid fire at 25 YARDS...14 on target one just off.



Somewhere I have all the chrono results with several different brands of ammo that I will try and find and post but do remember that even the NAA guns were better than a grand with some rounds. A High Standard Derringer broke 1200 FPS with CCI TNT and a 4" M48 made 1400.

Terry I am not saying you made the story about the board up but that bullet in no way looks any .22 Magnum bullet I have ever seen...do you know what brand it was? Sure looks like a cupped base lead .22 LR bullet to me...

Bob Makowski

Redneck...I have a Single-Six Hunter and it shoots great. This was the first 12 shots sighting in the scope at 25 yards... The first three were sighters while adjusting...then I left the dials where they were for 9 more..



Maggies can be very very picky about ammo. I have a Savage 24 DL and a H&R Handy Rifle that both will shoot 3/8" groups at 50 yards with the old Winchester 40 gr. HP...put in CCI TNT and groups open up to 2.5"... This picture is three shots from a Ruger 77/22 All-Weather with CCI TNTs... But with 40 grain Winchester HPs it won't even hit the dot...






You may want to try some different brands and use a good scope if you are shooting a rifle...

Bob

No, they are country hogs. They have a remarkable resemblance to liberals though since they lose all caution when they see the color yellow. Then they lose their minds, such as they are....another similarity. Perhaps they read the Miami Herald?
Here's a family picture for you. The fence you see is not a barrier to them, nor intended to keep them in.

That would be a good question.

I've shot way too many critters with both to believe the .22 mag is an inferior cartridge, but I will share an experience I had.

I was a new employee at a gun shop and the owner told me that when I sold one of those little Davis derringers that I should encourage the customer to buy .22 lr instead of .22 mag. He claimed the .22 mag didn't perform well out of the short barrel.

I was a .22 mag fan, so I raised the BS flag and he made me eat my words. Logically I figured it wasn't at its best, but I didn't believe the lr was a better choice in any situation.

We mixed balistic gel and fired both cartridges with several types of bullets, choosing as near to identical bullets as we could get.

Believe it or not the .22lr penetrated about three times further than the mag. It also out penetrated .25acp. (but the acp disturbed a lot more gel around the entry)

He said the burn curve of the powder was all wrong in the .22 mag for that short a barrel. There probably isn't an inch of barrel in front of the .22 mag cartridge in one of the little derringers. I still have the one I bought in .22lr.

Out of a rifle, or a revolver with a few inches of barrel, there just isn't any comparison. Though the ammo selection just ain't what it used to be.

Bob, I was only talking about the one I shot which looks nothing like yours. It had about a 1" barrel on with smooth bore with no rifling. I have only been talking about the model I shot so while your pictures are nice they're completely irrelevent and don't really prove anything.



Here is a picture I borrowed off gunbroker. This is what the one I shot looked like and the results were photographed.

It had a smooth bore barrel which made it incapable of anything close to the accuracy you show in the pictures. I also seriously think the barrel was over bored so not to jam any slugs in it when fired. This wouldn't help a thing in the accuracy or velocity depts.

Don't believe me? Look at the pictures again. See any rifling on the bullet?

Do you think a gun with a 1"-1.5" smooth bore barrel is capable of the kind of accuracy you're talking about at 25yds?

Look for yourself, see any rifling marks on the bullet?


Also, I was standing directly in front of this piece of wood when I fired. As you can see the bullet looks like it came in from a 45deg angle which indicates the bullet was tumbling.

As for the ammo, I don't remember the brand. I didn't think I would need to. I know it was 22WRF because I loaded the gun myself once.

I will state this for the last time. I have no reason to lie about this and those that know me on this board should know I don't make up stuff.

I shot this pistol from about 5' away from the target. The picture you see is the result.

I never wrote this to piss anyone off but it obviously has. I know we try to defend our buying decisions. In this case my brother in law couldn't. He realized that a gun like this is pretty much worthless when the chips are down and sold it at the pawn shop on the way home. I was glad he got rid of it and I wouldn't recommend one to anybody.

I was amazed enough to get a camera and take a picture when I got home. This was my experience with the pistol. I posted the pictures to share my experience with the gun. My intensions weren't to upset anyone but, It's not always pretty when you don't have advertisers to please.

Terry

I hear the little ones eat pretty good. True?

We don't have any on my place.

Terry

I have a NAA 1 5/8" barrel in 22LR. I have finished off one elk and two or three deer with it, at close range. One 100 LB plus dog and hit a cat at 30 or 40 feet. I have also shot a couple of rattle snakes with it.
It chronoed over 300 FPS in my den with CB's. It might have been over 400 I don't recall the exact FPS, but do remember I was impressed. I darn sure don't want to be shot at with one.

On the 22 Mag vs, the 17 HMR. I shot about a hundred of both calibers at whistle pigs (ground squirrels) this weekend, Plus about 500 22 LR.There is NO WAY a 17HMR approaches to the energy or damage compared to what a 22 Mag HP has on small critters.

As far as accuracy goes My old Marlin 783 in 22 Mag will out shoot me I think. That said, the 17 HMR I have is super accurate, but the Mag is M-O-whistle pig as far away as I can hit em, which is definitely over 100 yards, and leaves a lot less wounded.

OK, so it's an elk gun now.

HA!

Ok Terry...now I understand...you were shooting .22 Winchester Rimfire (WRF)..not .22 Winchester Rimfire Magnum (WRM). There is a BIG difference between the two...like the difference between a .38 Special and .357 Magnum...

As to your gun, my first NAA .22 Magnum looked just like that but had two cylinders as does the MiniMaster above. It was just as accurate as the Black Widow I now have and was so accurate that after a friend shot it he pestered me for weeks to buy it...and I sold it regreted it until buying these two.

If that NAA really didn't have any rifling then it could never possible stabilized any bullet and since there would be no bullet to bore seal then all the gas would leak by further reducing velocity. I was thinking maybe that NAA made a special run of guns just for the CCI .22 Magnum snake shot round but that would subject the gun to Federal registration as a short barreled smoothbore firearm and subject to a $5.00 Tax....

Don't give up on the little NAAs...as you can see they are great little shooters.

Bob

I did say MRF instead of WRF, My bad.

Terry

Well, it still seems a bit cockeyed to me, but it really isn't all that important. The WRF uses the same bullet diameter as the WMR and has velocity a bit higher than the LR. CCI's current loading is a 45 grain copper jacketed bullet listed at 1300 fps. It is not a healed design. I've seen older ammo that uses lead bullets but they too are not a healed design.

With that said, I have a magnifier function on my mouse and there are no rifling marks evident in the photo.

1x10^9 angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Time to move along.

Those of us who look at field results rather than hype know this to be true sir. Shooting critters in the head with an HMR is not a good test for cartridge performance. Especially on larger vermin. There really is no comparison.

But HMR touters will still get their panties in a wad...

Life goes on...

I had shot a cow elk that was facing straight towards me. She was standing behind small rise so that only her very upper chest and up was visible. I placed the cross hairs on her chin, lowered a bit and fired. The bullet went through her neck and spine dropping her on the spot. She was unconscious but still breathing when I walked up to her. I took my little NAA 22 out of my front pocket, where it stays while I am big game hunting, for just such a incident.
At 6 inches from her forehead a 22 Stinger stopped her breathing instantly.

If you have ever had to finish a deer or elk from just a few feet with a centerfire rifle, with a shot to the head, you know why that little gun is where it is when I am hunting.
If as I suspect, you have not, I will explain that a 30-06 bullet at 20 or 30 feet to a critters head can be a very messy situation, to say the least.

Hope that answers you well enough.

I never asked you for an explanation, nor have I ever needed 2 guns to take down an animal.

Terry

I worked for a family owned Cold Storage/Meat Processing plant for years. We cut and packaged game for hunters,as well as butchered hogs and beef for local farmers. We'd drive to their farms in a winch truck to do our slaughtering, as the cold storage was downtown. I will guarantee you that all of the biggest of beeves, huge bulls included, even a few bison, that we ever shot in the forehead with a 22mag died on the spot--hundreds of them, and not one ever got back up.

Before that we had used a .22LR, but made the switch because every once in a great while, a big bull wouldn't go down, or would get back up, really really mad, when shot with the .22LR. After the Mag -- not one ever.

OK, I looked at that picture of the bullet in the board and had to go see for myself. Here are my results.

Test weapon Ruger Single Six, 6.5" barrel with interchangeable cylinders -- .22lr and .22Mag.

Ammo:

.22Mag 34gr jacketed hollow point, Winchester Supreme (Hey I know that solids would of tested better but this is what I had on hand).

.22LR 32gr gilded hollow point, CCI Stingers (Again with the hollow point, but they were one of several .22LR rounds that I had on hand and should compare closest to the mag shell that I used)

First a couple of .22mag rounds into a 2x4 from about 25' . . .



and the other side . . .



OK, so they get through a pine 2x4 how about the .22LR . . .


Yep they do too.

How about edgewise . . .





The .22Mag did it but the .22LR didn't make it. Judgeing from a piece of wire that I stuck in the hole, the .22LR did make it 2/3s of the way or more through though.

I brought some books too, but after one shot with the .22LR, I knew that I didn't bring enough books.



So I had another idea, how about if I clamp the books on behind the 2x4 and see what happens . . .

.22mag 3/4s of the way through the second book, after 1 1/2 inches of pine lumber.

[img]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z13/bricky62/100_1654.jpg[/img]

.22LR 1/3 of the way into the first book after 1 1/2 inches of pine lumber.

[img]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z13/bricky62/100_1655.jpg[/img]

I'm not sure what this proves, other than that was some hard lumber in that first photo, or that I don't want one of the little pocket derrangers. But I did get all of my bullits to go a lot deeper than that. And the .22Mags made it through over 500 more pages of book on the other side of a 2x4 than the .22LR did.

By the looks of that bullet in the original photo, it's not mashed or tore up or anything -- If it's a genuine photo, no matter how hard the wood is, I think that little smooth bore let all the gasses get around the bullet, so it had no force at impact.

I have done some testing on this, but with 6 inch barrels. In 6" handguns, the .22 magnum severely beats the long rifle. I get 965 fps with a 37 grain hollow point Super-X long rifle, for 76 foot pounds of energy. Using Super-X 40 grain hollow point magnums, I get 1375 fsp for 168 pounds of enery - well over TWICE the power of the long rifle cartridge. This is a HUGE difference. These numbers are from my SW 35 6" .22 long rifle revolver and my SW 648 6" .22 mag revolver.

As for comoparing the .22 mag from a handgun to the long rifle from a rifle, the .22 mag from the handgun beats the published .22 long rifle high velocity cartridges (from a rifle) by 17 to 22%, depending on whether one is using solids or hollow points. Some of the hyper velocity hollow points (Yellow Jackets, for ex.) from a rifle amost equal the .22 mag from a 6" gun.

Really nice testing there Jock-L, thanks for taking the time to do it and post it. Got an old single six myself, well, actually, Dad said to give it to my son before he left for some other plane.

Pretty conclusive IMO.

This is an interesting thread. At first, I thought it was purely inflammatory.

The 22 mag is a bone crusher.

And see there's people that probably thought that if I'd of actually read them books, they would of been more useful and informative -- Guess they finally taught me something in the end!

Not a single person mentioned Lent???

Planemech: You are attempting something that is just not possible.
And that is to contradict reality!

Your quote: "Funny on anything more voracious than paper my .22WMR kills better than the .17HMR my friend has. We tried it. Yes the .17 is flatter by a bit, and yes it's sub MOA and my .22 mag is just MOA. Still when the push comes to shove 30+ grains beats 17 to 20 every time". End quote.
The weight of a bullet is NOT the only "factor" involved in the actual lethality of a round!

I fire literally thousands of rounds of 17 HMR ammunition at and into Varmints of all kinds and sizes EVERY YEAR!
And have done so for over 6 (six) years now!
Before that I used many and varied models and renditions of various 22 Magnums and Specials on Varmints - again of all kinds and sizes.
The 17 HMR is so far superior to the 22 Magnum that I feel that explains the recent virtually complete conversion of rimfire Hunters to the 17 HMR over the 22 Magnum.
I have hosted and Hunted alongside dozens of different Varminters this year so far - NOT 1 (ONE) of these serious Varminters used a 22 Magnum.
Yet I know many if not most of them do own 22 Magnums! They just leave the 22 Magnums at home anymore.
Many of the Varminters I have Hunted alongside this year have had more than one 17 HMR Rifle along with them!
Its not just me - I have no particular bone to pick with the 22 Magnums nor a financial interest in any cartridge - its just the reality of the 17 HMR's superiority!
I have now killed 9 Badgers with the 17 HMR cartridge.
Each one was a one shot kill.
My first Badger killt with the 17 HMR was several years ago and it was a long, head on shot. I killed that big Boar Badger DRT with one shot right in the throat! Once at the Badgers den mouth I had time to Leica laser back to the front grill of my VarmintMobile, where I had shot from, and the Leica laser reading was 173 yards!
And I was shooting from the tailgate over the roof of my canopy past the grill so I add two yards to that shot making that a 175 yard one shot kill on a big Badger with my 17 HMR!
I would not even have tried that shot with a 22 Magnum - I know better.
I have shot at and into lots of Badgers with 22 Magnums over the years and the results have been poor at best.
Then, once pictures were taken of that Badger, my partner and I returned to the VarmintMobile and resumed Ground Squirrel Hunting. It was not 30 minutes later when another Badger came out of the ground at virtually the same distance and my partner Jack Veness of Yelm, Washington killed that Badger with his 17 HMR.
I have killt all manner of Varmints from Coyote on down to Weasels with my 17 HMR's and also have harvested large Porcupine, Rock Chucks, field lions (feral cats), Raccoons, Jack Rabbits, Prairie Dogs, Fox, Wild Turkey, Ground Squirrels, Skunks (now these need to be killed quickly!), flying type Varmint birds and several other types of Varmints and small game.
The 22 Magnum does not hold a candle to the lethality of the 17 HMR.
Your argument is not working on me nor on the legions of other small game and Varmint Hunters who have switched to the 17 HMR.
Again remember (or prove it to yourself!) there is a lot more to lethality of a cartridge than just bullet weight.
Yes, Varmints can be killed with the various 22 Magnums but the minor increase in lethality and range over the 22 L.R makes it simply not cost worthy to use the 22 Magnums anymore.
Long live the new King of rimfires - the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

17 HMR sucks!

The 17 HMR is certainly an accurate and useful varmint cartridge, but I think that the 17 HM2 and 22 MRF are also useful in their niches.

The 17 HM2 is cheaper to shoot than the 17 HMR by about 50% and offers the same performance out to 100+/- yards. I particularly like it in a Ruger 10/22 conversion as a flat shooting walking-around/woods-loafing plinker.

I think that the 22 MRF is particularly useful in a revolver for shooting snakes with CCI snake-shot loads and as a survival cartridge it can counted on to cleanly take deer/hog sized animals in the hands of a good shot. Those are 2 small areas where the 17 HMR is not a viable option.

Jeff

Glad we cleared up the applicability of the HMR to larger game, what with its incumbent limitations. What I've found is that when you move up to those bone crushing heavyweights like the 29 grain short it opens new horizons. I know size isn't everything, but if it's bigger you don't have to move it so fast.

I've always thought placement had something to do with it. Maybe a .22 WMR with a FMJ could do the same...ought to try that one of these days.

I have heard that the COs who do herd reduction for crop damage complaints like the suppressed Ruger 10/22 Magnums and claim that they can kill 4 or 5 deer before the groups get disturbed by their friends falling over dead.

I've never shot a deer with a 22 LR, at least that I recall, but I've shot a number of them doing herd reduction or herd improvement with a variety of 22 MRF rifles and can state for the record that a 40 grain JSP through the lungs is quite deadly. For a North American survival rifle in places where there isn't any dangerous game, big bears, it is hard to beat a 22 MRF in a rifle or, maybe even better, an old Savage 24 combination gun. The old Rossi 59 carbines, copies of the Winchester 1890/1906/62, in 22 MRF break down small enough to find in a pretty small space, if space to carry a survival type weapon is limited.

Jeff

TCI, your post said "why I gave up the 22 Mag" yet you showed results of a 22WRF in a smooth bore pistol??. So when I called B.S. ---I was right on! You are full of it. You are misleading people that may depend on that little gun for some protection. You convinced on person(jimmyp) to leave it at home. I hope everyone follows this thread and realizes that not all pictures and posts can be trusted. I hope no one leaves their NAA pistol at home because of your BS post.

I've killed several large dogs, a couple of deer, and 4-5 yotes with the .22mag and winchester HP's, not to mention a whole bunch of smaller stuff. Have never felt the need to try the .17 rounds,,, why bother if it ain't broke don't fix it, of course I'm not shooting at alot of little bitty critters wayyyy out there. I am either shooting at strays or game animals in the woods, there the .22 mag needs no improvement

260Rem...could you please describe the reaction to the hit a deer does when hit with a .22 Magnum... I never plan on "hunting" deer with a .22 Magnum but it is my #1 survival round...

And you are right...the Savage 24 .22 Magnum/20 ga. makes the ideal "truck" gun....

Thanks...Bob

No you weren't. I gave a good description of what happened and showed a picture of the results. The post and picture were there for thinking people to read and look at the results. Nothing on the post was misleading or erroneous. It wasn't a test nor did I present it as one. I had/have no agenda, nor did I give you any reason to act like the rude a**hole you've shown yourself to be.


Terry

Shot through the head, they usually fall over dead.

Shot through the lungs, they usually run about 10 or 15 yards and act like many arrow-shot deer do. When I was culling, using a Ruger 10/22 Magnum, I'd usually double-tap them, just to be sure.

Jeff

VG,

Can you please hit the enter key every now and then?


Travis

It would depend on the .22 Magnum. I remember two bay area cops who were killed by a BG armed with a 3 inch, Hi-Standard DA, Derringer .22 Magnum. The first was shot in the heart at about 3 feet. Dead before he hit the ground. His partner, who had been standing next to him, took a round in the stomach. He got off four rds, all misses, before he too died.
I've used a .22 RF magnum for many years on small game, Ruger SS Converible w/ 5.5 inch barrel. Kills ground squirrels and Jack Rabbits much better than the same gun does with any .22 RF ammo. Even took out a small sidewinder rattle snake with a bird shot rd.
As far as the larger animals like coyotes goes, there is no comparision. The little .17's do far worse. Whereas the .22 RFM is consider entirely adequate at the shorter, under 100 yds., called predators. E

terry,

just curious as to what .22mag load you used on that board... i have yet to come across an unjacketed .22mag load...

That looks mucm more like a .22 LR subsonic or squib

...it wasn't .22 Magnum...it was .22 WRF (Winchester Rim Fire)


"As for the ammo, I don't remember the brand. I didn't think I would need to. I know it was 22WRF because I loaded the gun myself once."


Bob

I see so It's not a .22mag round stuck in the board? Didn't thonk it was anyway. I've shot a few critters over the years with the .22mag in a 6 inch revolver, no 1 inch pine board is gonna stop it within any reasonable distance,

Wow this is starting to rival some of the great topics of the past. I am sure glad I didn't quit on my 22 magnums now.

I've had a NAA.22mag for a good many years,and have fired it a lot, as well as it's .22 long rifle cylinder that came with it.I've never "TESTED"the little gun,but,I have shot a lot of different targets with it.The .22LR will tear a sheet of 3/4in.plywood all to sh--,so will the .22 mag,at distances of 15ft. and more.These same rounds will also go through both sides of 55gal. oil drums,at the same distances, and leave nasty exit holes.I can't figure out what happened to your gun.the ammo had to have been bad.

Could be the guy had old ammo where the wax seeped down into the powder and jacked it up... but that's common on 22's, 22 mags I wouldn't think it happens so much.

Either way I've never seen a 22 mag bounce off anything yet, they do a good job.

Spot

That they do,,,,

Very interesting thread. Don't know anything about short barreled handguns but have shot thousands of rounds of 22Mag and 17HMR at varmints.

Every now and then I go back to Saskatchewan to do some gopher hunting. For many years I tried various centerfires but my CZ Lux in 22 Magnum worked so well out to 125-150 yards that I stopped using bigger guns. The 22WMR had excellent terminal effects out to 100 yards (read splatter) I found Win 40 grain HP's to be as good as anything else printing into 1.25MOA or better.

Finally found a 17HMR CZ for trade on a CZ 22LR and grabbed it. It's really something. it's an easy 40-50 yard improvement over the 22 Mag. One thing it doesn't do quite as well as the 22WMR is splatter gophers. The little 17 grain bullet is close...but doesn't quite make it to 22WMR for splatter factor.

I do however shoot about 3 rounds of 17HMR for every round of Magnum. Hits are just a bit easier. The 22LR.... results in lots of crawl aways. Never use it.

The likely reason that this thread went South is that the original author made a blanket statement about the inferiority of the 22Mag over the 22LR. Fired in a 1" smooth bore barrel this might have some validity. As a general statement it does not.

The .22 mag is great! It's probably my 11th or 12th favorite cartridge. As kids, when we graduated from .22 LR's to .22 Mags we went from nuisance to threat.

The Winchester model 1890 came out in .22WRF,and until around 1964 or so was the .22Mag of .22 rifles. It will durn sure out preform the older .22Lr cartridges(the high vel mini-mags will give it a run for its money) the WRF is a.224 diam bullet and around 45 grains.

It costs about the same as the .22mag and can be shot in the mag to save the red vapor effect on small game.

Bob

Hmmm, I can't find the link now, but I read an article on line the other day where someone was comparing .17HMR and .22WMR. What he was claiming was that if the .22 mag was zeroed in at 125 yrds and the .17HMR was zeroed at 100. (can't recall which grain or brand shells he was using either). That with the ammo he was using, he was hitting the same spot at around 200 yrds with both rifles, and only picking up about a 1/4 or 1/2 inch on 100yrds with the .22 Mag.

I still want a 17HMR, it's on my "to get list", but I do believe as well that all this extra yardage that I keep hearing that they are good for, is just a few clicks away on your crosshairs of a .22Mag, and you get to deliver a lot more lead.

As for me, I think that if I want to shoot a varmint out much past 200yrds, I'll probably want a hot rod center fire, like a .22-250 -- Heck, I can't hardly even see a prairie dog out there at 300 even with the scope cranked to 12X anyway.

I'm probably not going to run out and rezero my .22Mag at 125 yrds either. I know already that it is right on the money at 100, and if I aim one prairie dog over a prairie dog's head at 200, they die too. I haven't shot enough .17HMR rounds to know yet, but I suppose that I'd only have to hold maybe half a prairie dog high with them at 200? So either gun will shoot effectively at the same distances, within the ranges that I'd shoot either of these rifles, it's just all in knowing where to hold them at what ranges. The Mag will still bring more lead with every shot though.

Nothing surprises me in such a set-up. Then again, I've seen the lowly 45 Colt in a 16" carbine out-do - with 320 grains bullets- the steaming 45-70 with 420 grain bullets; in both cases very similar moderately hard cast metal. And that was shooting spruce logs.

Then I imagine what REALLY happened is the stake MOVED when it was hit, and it effectively CAUGHT the bullet. That would also explain why it's at an angle

I've had similar incidents where a bullet was "caught" by a lightweight target that "rolled with the punch" instead of allowing penetration.
I once had a 44 Special bullet fail to penetrate a lighter fluid can. It hit the edge near the top,and knocked the can over 100 ft, but the can wrapped around it and held onto it

Here, I'll add a photo to your story.

1890 Winchester .22 WRF

700LH: You could not be further off base with your postings regarding "whistle pigs (Ground Squirrels?)" and the 17 HMR's lethality!
I have used the 17 HMR EXTENSIVELY on Ground Squirrels (to the tune of 2,500 to 3,500 rounds every year since the cartridge was introduced!) and the 17 HMR is so far superior to the decrepit 22 Magnum that they are not even close!
The 17 HMR is not only more accurate than the 22 Magnum (like you mentioned) it shoots flatter over a longer distance than the 22 Magnum and it shoots straighter in the wind!
Flatter, more accurate and straighter means MORE killing zone hits!
Does it not?
Then at the terminal end the 17 HMR is a vastly superior round lethality wise over the 22 Magnum!
I have killed 3 Coyotes and seen several others killed with one shot apiece from 17 HMR's!
I personally have killed 10 Badgers with the 17 HMR - all killed with a single shot!
Speed kills there 700LH!
And by speed I am certain that the enhanced speed at which 17 HMR rounds ROTATE is one of the factors in its enhanced lethality!
I have used the various 22 Magnums and 22 Specials for decades and NONE of them are capable of doing what I routinely do with my 17 HMR's!
PERIOD!
Every year I host dozens of "experienced" Ground Squirrel Hunters!
They travel a LONG ways to Montana, many are from NW Washington state along with Oregon and California. In addition I host Hunters from Connecticut, Rhode Island, Louisiana, Illinois, Florida, Idaho, New York, Minnesota and I even took one German out on a Ground Squirrel Hunt a couple years ago.
All of these folks have to choose which arm and munitions is best for there intentions - unanimously they choose the 17 HMR (except the German he owns no arms).
Sure you can Hunt Ground Squirrels with a 22 Magnum (I did it for decades!) but you will have more success (fun!) with a 17 HMR!
I have NOT seen a 22 Magnum Rifle along on any of my hosted Hunts for more than 4 years now!
Yet EVERY Ground Squirrel Hunter I host, DOES, bring along at least one 17 HMR!
I don't know - maybe EVERYONE but you is wrong and the 17 HMR is somehow just "fooling" everybody???
I think not!
My forsaking the 22 Magnums for the 17 HMR was and is based on its demonstrated superiority afield on Game and at the range!
In addition to Coyotes and Badgers I have also killed Fox, large Porcupine, Raccoon, Rock Chucks, Wild Turkeys, Prairie Dogs, Skunks, feral cats, Jack Rabbits, Rock Pigeons and other winged Varmints with my 17 HMR's!
I had in a group of three Hunters just last month and each of them had along a 17 HMR Rifle (one Cooper and two CZ's) - two of those Hunters are multi-millionaires! One owns the best independent Gunshop in Washington state - he (they!) could afford any and every Rifle they would wish to.
None of them Hunts Ground Squirrels with a 22 Magnum!
You are ABSOLUTELY right about the enhanced accuracy of the 17 HMR over the 22 Magnum - of that there is NO doubt!
There is also NO DOUBT that you are wrong about the 17 HMR not holding up to the 22 Magnum lethality wise - I base my observation on YEARS of extensive use of BOTH cartridges not just 100 rounds on a weekend!
Sales of 22 Magnum arms and ammo are virtually in the toilet.
Sales of the 17 HMR arms and ammo are strong and consistent.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmint guy, glad you like the 17. Still having shot things with both to include coyotes, I'll take the .22WMR every time. The bigger the varmint the more I lean for the .22WMR. My .22WMR isn't a slouch in the accuracy department at all and it does sling bullets 2x the 17's weight or more. Nope it's not as flat, then I can holdover. Nothing can make the 17's bullet heavier. The 17's advertised and hyped results are not what I have seen side by side vs. a .22WMR, especially with the Vmax loadings at 2200 fps.

All I can say is, based upon admittedly limited experience, that I had more fun with the .17 HMR on my recent trip to Arizona for prairie dogs, than should be legal. And I have been a .22 mag fan for years. I agree that the lighter bullets in the .22 mag at higher velocity are the best, but my Marlin 882 will not shoot them well and prefers the slower 40 gr Win Super-X - which are not as good as the 17 gr V-Max loads in the .17 HMR. Even the fastest .22 mag loads are 300 fps slower than the 17 gr bullet in the .17 HMR.

It's knd of too bad to live in a world where new products eat their parents! I happen to like the .22MRF. Try shooting Javelina between the eyes at 2 foot distances with a Single Six revolver while using dogs and see which you prefer.

The subject line is a bit thin from a application point of view.

I think trying to eradicate prairie dogs and ground squirrel with the .17 HMR would be the most tedious thing I can imagine. If a person was really intent on getting rid of the little buggers, then they need something like this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7309904847520611793

That'll work! Although for sporting purposes I think I will go with a 50 cal.. http://dogbegone.com/video.html