So, how did I wind up in the perverse, blasphemous, oft chastised state of being where I shoot hogs with shorts, never less than once? I mean NOBODY could be so silly as to actually use shorts in this day of Kevlar plated deer, right? Then, to step down to CB shorts for such efforts has got to be totally nuts, right? Well, no actually. I once thought myself a little tetched in the head about this, then during a flash of blinding insight realized it was the rest of the shooting world that was out of touch. (Yeah, OK, tongue in cheek a little)

1980 and I was living in a beach house on Florida's east coast just south of Cocoa Beach. I had come into possession of some CB caps and out of curiosity put one in a bolt rifle, stepped out back...not in that order...and pulled the trigger. I heard a 'ping' with the firing pin strike and a 'whop' with the diminutive bullet hit the intended target, and thought "Gee, that was neat. No noise."

1984, further down in South Florida and I ran across some "new" ammo put out by Winchester called CB shorts. All the counter monkey could tell me about them was it was a reduced load and fairly quiet...and $1.65/box, or thereabouts. I ran some thru the bolt rifle with its 26" barrel...."ping-whop" was how it talked. They weren't terribly accurate from that rifle but the lack of noise intrigued. Admittedly, at that point in life I knew next to nothing about the art of the rifle, having been devoted to quail hunting most of my life. Still....

1985: A Remington 572 came into my possession and on the side of the barrel it said "S,L,LR". Over half a box of bullets went down the tube and in the privacy of my back yard on the outside corner of a trailer park, nothing but an abandoned cow pasture and limerock mine in the back drop, it made a lot of "ping-whop" sounds.....and shot very well thank you. Younger eyes back then so the irons did OK for me, shooting about 1" groups all the way out to 15-20 yards from a sitting position. More intrigued I was.

1986: Feral cats began to gather in the neighborhood and a culling process began with the use of a live trap. The little CBs ended the story for a great many cats over a period of several months and to this day I know where all the bones are buried. I was surprised that all the shots went thru and thru.

Curious thing about old ladies and feral cats. It seems the ladies have a gene that requires they feed strays, and thus I had to go buy more ammo. Back then I did not discriminate much about source....it said "CB" and I said "OK". It really didn't make any difference to me, or apparently the Remington. Remington started making CBs somewhere around then and I was doing just fine until the Muscovy ducks showed up. Seems they like cat food too. Now, what I don't get is why old ladies don't seem to care for ducks, or why the cats wouldn't do their duty and defend their food bowls. One thing led to another and one day after coming home from work I laid out a trail of cracked corn from my crap covered drive to the back yard then went inside to load up.

Somewhere in cyberspace is the full telling of what followed, but the short form of it is this: The Remington held 27 or 29 shorts, don't recall precisely, and when I started I'd not fully loaded the rifle. After emptying the rifle once and reloading, the incessant 'ping-whop' and 'quack-quack' came to a stop. The stench of cordite was strong in my bedroom which served as my hide, and the battle field was littered with 27 dead ducks, all but one of which was a one shot kill. I had underestimated their determination at the beginning...the 'ping-whop' or sight of their fallen comrades did not dissuade the hoards from a sea of golden grain. My dog looked at me like I'd lost my mind, in the distance a mockingbird imitated Tiny Tim. The garbage truck hauled them away the next day, curb side service at its best! I think I got a call from Oliver Stone the next day wanting movie rights but I'd never heard of him and figured it was a crank call.

1987: Key Largo. The Keys are, or were, pretty neat. There are flies in the ointment however, one being the propensity of people to abandon cats by the brazillions. It was, in short, a target rich environment and they were baited by an nearby restaurant. I began stalking with a phenomenal string of one shot stops and over the course of 7.5 years totally lost track of the numbers killed. I lived in a seclude house, buried in tropical jungle...my perfectly private little Khe Sahn.

There was one particular hunt that fairly represents a galactic alignment of remarkable proportion. The mail girl was a very comely and leggy red head named Jill. She was always a bit aloof and I figured she was into alternative lifestyles which are popular down that way. Well, one day I was taking the garbage out and as I came around the corner I spied a small tom skulking around off the street shoulder in the back yard. Yep, my lot was fronted and reared by streets. Alternatives abounded. Retrieved the magic Remington, peeked around the corner and lined up for what would be my longest and best shot in life. Late morning, all was quiet in the area...bead between the eyes and a gentle squeeze...'ping-whop' and the tom went down like the switch was turned off. Then I heard Jill's Jeep coming up the street. 1st gear, 2nd gear, then just as she was about to pass the little ball of fur so purrfectly cammoed in the grasses on the shoulder, a neuro-spasm happened and the tom flopped wildly, bouncing off the side of the jeep with a resounding thump and....screech! O-M-G! The best way to confront disaster is head on....I put the rifle out of sight and walked to the accident site. Jill was hysterical, crying, apologizing...for running over my cat. I consoled her with comforting embrace of course and after she settled down and wiped her eyes I forgave her. -snuffle-snuffle- She accepted my offer to meet her that evening to talk about it and it was the start of another story I probably won't expand on much, except to say she was a gal of many alternatives, interesting talents and double digit IQ. Gosh, those CBs were looking really good to me about then.

1995-2003 I slipped and got married..not to Jill. It was a curious version of hell. Much conflict and much to struggle for. We bought a 100 acre parcel of mixed bottoms and uplands just north of Dublin, Ga and this is where my interest in the shooting sports really began to grow. In and of itself, shooting became an objective equal to hunting. I learned much in those days and nights. This is when I began to question much of what is written by gun scribes and peers, because I was seeing things that were incongruent with conventional lore. I found that it was not really necessary to use 20 mm cannons to kill things. In fact, I found that #3 buckshot from a 20 Ga. was absolutely lethal on hogs, deers, coyotes and such. I also found that a .22 LR would drop a hog dead on the spot, the first test of this coming on a boar of about 275-300#. And you know what? CB shorts were certified sufficient for 'coons, possum, and most anything else that needed a bullet. Still, it had not occurred to me that they were adequate for hogs. I wasn't that far over the edge...yet.

2003-present: My understanding 2nd and last wife and I retired in 2003, moved to the outskirts of Yankeetown, Fl. Because it is rural and bordered on wild swampy country we have...er, had a plethora of obnoxious pests to contend with. Mostly 'coons, possums, Kevlar-dillos. By then I had long since developed an interests in .22 shorts and had, in 1999 purchased a barrel so chambered from T/C's custom shop to mount on the Contender frame. A .30-30 barrel too, but that's another story. Me and 'Shorty' were having an awful lot of fun, what with feeding gators in the back yard. It has a little shorter barrel and makes an audible "pop" when I shoot it, but it is sufficiently quiet that nobody is aware I shoot it...off the balcony at sharply depressed angles. One of my favorite stories was the 'dillo that took a hit and conveniently rolled down the bank into the river. 'Gator bait.

The pigs came then. Sometime in the fall of 2004 we were beset by feral hogs. Gobs of them. At the time I had no access to private property across the street or state lands adjacent, so I was left to watch without being terribly proactive. Finally one day it occurred that a small herd was rooting in my front yard and the first thing within reach was the Remington 572, stuffed with CCI CB shorts. I figured to just 'move 'em along' in a manner of speaking, but when I got into position I thought "what the hey" and drew a bead behind the ear. "ping-whop-flop". Now I was surprised to say the least. Upon examination I found another oddity. This little porker of about 50#, shot at a later measured 38 yards, had suffered a thru and thru that included a shattered C-3 vertebrae.

To bring this "short" story to a close, I will tell you what I have come to believe about all of this. There is a paper cup on my bureau with 68 empty .22 cartridges. 2 are LR, 2 are CCI short HVHP cases. LRs work fine. HP Bullets shatter when they hit bone and that is problematic in my view. CB shorts will penetrate like the dickens because they do not expand in any significant way, thus retaining sectional density. They will penetrate thru and thru on broad side neck shots on smaller hogs. They will penetrate thru and thru skulls and brain on frontal shots, this with mature hogs. Of all the cases mentioned above, only one hog required two shots and that is the boar pictured in another post in this forum. He is the one that demonstrated the folly of the behind the ear shot with shorts, even though is didn't seem to upset him when so shot. he just looked around and when he turned back to face me the story ended.

If any of you are sufficiently bored to try this on your own I strongly suggest you be fully conversant with your rifle and personal skill set. I do not know of anyone who has ever been killed by a hog, but I know many who have bled during unplanned excursions with them. Get close, take a rest against a tree and wait for the shot to come together. Make sure your tennis shoe laces are tight. If you are inclined to shoot into a crowd, take the big sow first. They sometimes get a bit pissy if you squeal one of their babies, or so my experience tells me, and that can happen with a neck shot.

Lastly, anytime you run into somebody that thinks CBs are toys and not particularly dangerous, do set their mind right on the subject. They are deadly, very deadly.

Short Dan

I have only shot about 25 or so hogs, but always wanted to hunt them with a .22 It humors me when folks talk about large bores to bring them down. I have always preached shot placement, and easy kills with any gun at hand. Great read!

So, are you getting way better accuracy out of the dedicated .22 short barrel that cannot be achieved in a LR chamber?

Good post, Dan.

I like the option of using CB loads in my bolt gun. My first successful use with them was (like you) in a Rem 572. Accurate enough for feral...ehem...you know. CBs would be my choice for the occasional crow (my primary pest) except that civilization has grown nearly to my doorstep and I have to be concerned about where the slug ends up in the case of a miss - just as one would be with 22lr. This has forced me to switch to the (noisier) pellet rifle for such shooting, though I would much prefer to use the CBs.

Yep. Here's 50 yards from a bag rest, 4X Weaver rimfire scope, 5 shots back to back which measure just slightly greater than 1/2". HVHP ammo shoots the same but about 1" higher at that distance.



The red dot gives up a little accuracy, running about 1.5" at 50 yards. However, my chosen zero with that sight and commensurate with the cover I hunt is 10 yards. The targets below were fired in numerical sequence starting with an absolutely clean bore and elbow rest on a bench. After the first three groups I adjusted the sight as annotated prior to shooting numbers 4 and 5.

You can't kill a hog with a .22, especially a short, everyone knows that.

+1, good read.

Thanks for that. For me it has distilled down to a belief reinforced by the experience. Neither the caliber or charge matter so much as where you apply the force. It is a difficult concept to sell to young fellows brimming with testosterone.

If anything takes the glow off of FPE pundits it would be this exercise. WDM Bell was doing something similar with elephants and his 7x57 on a MUCH larger scale. Admittedly, more horsepower allows for a little less precision and opens broader placement options, but I'm reasonably certain wildlife hasn't really started wearing body armor.

On another note, one of the points worth considering is the skeletal structure of hogs as represented above and how their skull is put together. In somewhat simplistic terms hogs have both an exterior cranium and interior cranium. Both are fused on the forehead and aft portions of the skull but have large cavities on the sides that isolate the brain from impact damage. If you look closely at the photo below you can see the shot that near made me pess me sharts and why it did not work. There are two layers of bone visible in the hole. The bullet deflected off the interior portion of the skull and shattered a small area of that bone, but did not penetrate. Perhaps it stunned, I do not know.



The next shot views from the back of the skull looking forward, opposite of bullet path. You will see the bone mass damaged in the lower right and entry hole in the background, center. The bullet came to rest about 1" behind the skull and fell out when the head was removed.



Path:



Endgame:

Crap, now I have to buy some of those too!

back in 1964, while hog hunting near St Augustine in Palm Valley, one of the boys with us got his leg ripped open like a watermelon. Knee to crotch. He JUST missed losing the 'lads'.

I don't mess around with hogs. I kill them with something that I know will knock them about and down. My skill set is just fine, but I ain't using no damn .22 on hogs.

That being said, I have dispatched a huge number of bunnies, squirrels and feral cats with the CB .22, both longs and shorts.

I would do it from a treestand before I went eye to eye.

...that was one of the greatest posts I have read in a long time...especially about Jill... I guess you parted company when you were finally honest about the Tom... :-)

I used almost nothing but Sears Shorts when I was a teenager...all the game I shot with my first rifle..a Marlin 29A Golden was with Shorts... A friend still uses Shorts in one of his guns...

Bob

Bob.......er, no. I lied and lied and lied. Guilt is a powerful weapon!

Thank goodness I never had made a picture of the piles of game and pests with the Acorn brand of .22 CB caps. They have to be one of the best killing slugs of all time, them little pointy bullets sure do work.

Dan,

Excellent thread, and good words U write!
I have a bunch of CB's, Shorts, and BB caps for "special" occasions when I need to dispatch something with minimum noise.

Great read, Dan. Thanks for taking the time to post and explain your thought process and fondness for CBs.

I'm curious to know how long your Contender Carbine barrel is? I long ago had a 21" sporter weight 7-30 Waters, but balance was terrible and it went down the road. I keep telling myself I need another carbine length barrel but have yet to find a deal that speaks to me.

Thanks for the overlay of the skeleton and the detailed photos. I think it brings a lot to the argument for .22 in your application.

20" for the .22 barrel, and 22" for the .30-30, both sporter contours. I've a couple of observations about the T/C carbine: Ugly and not terribly conducive to offhand shooting. Very light and sufficiently accurate for any demand I'd place on the respective cartridges. I rarely shoot it in the field without resting it against a tree, but since I still hunt mostly, there always seems to be one handy when I pause to observe. I have made a few offhand shots but don't care to do so if it can be avoided. Always thought a bull contour would address the balance issue you mention and the package is so short that 26" of barrel for CF cartridges won't hurt either. Hindsight is 20/20, no?

The .30-30 barrel chamber was cut to larger than normal dimensions and is problematic for reloading although I've done that with neck sizing only. Call it an 'Almost Ackley Improved'. T/C customer service was not helpful in finding remedy.

It is an effective tool and little more. Given different circumstances I'd favor other rifles after all is considered. I've got an old .25-20 lever gun that makes me hope for an invasion of ostriches. Then there's the Rigby. Anyone know if Jurassic Park has reopened?

Dan:

Terrific post.

I've been thinking more and more about a .22 rifle with a chamber cut for shorts.

Standard velocity shorts are interesting, too. My father-in-law had a passion for shooting what he called pocket gophers in his Michigan backyard. He used .22 short solids. Not as quiet as CBs, but pretty quiet compared to .22 lr. And he killed a bunch of those flower-munching varmints.

- Tom

I have one of the TC Contender Carbines. The .22 barrel was from the Custom Shop that someone had on a table at a show for $150.00...has been an excellent shooter. Barrel is 18" long and full bull profile. Used to have a folding stock on the gn which was fine for long rifle barrels but it made me a little nervous with the 18 and 16.5" barrels because folded it was less than the 26" minimum under Federal regulations. TC said it was legal as that was a "storage" position...I didn't feel like being a test case and sold it. The gun now wears a Bell&Carlson Carbolite thumbhole stock and it shoots great.

I have some shorts and CB Longs that I need to try out. Also just picked up a Marlin 39 TDS that will cycle shorts that should be tried also...

Bob

I've got an old Remington Model 24 gallery gun, short only. It's pretty tired, and the springs are about shot, especially the magazine spring that's crimped for five rounds only, but it still shoots pretty good. I kinda like it for playing around, when the eyes work. No easy way to scope the old thing.

I might have to try a box of CBs in it, just for giggles, it's not 100% even with HVHPs, maybe CBs are what it needs.

My body count isn't anywhere near yours, but numerous squirrels have taken the dirt nap in my backyard, courtesy of my Remmy 511 and CB shorts & longs....Quieter then my air rifles...

I run the CCI CB longs in my beat up Marlin 39A "Garden Gun", with a view towards avoiding the dread Carbon / Lead ring induced in a L.R. by the Shorts variety.

That said,....the Shorts always seem to have the accuracy edge over the longs. What I've taken to doing with the Longs is raising the muzzle to 90* after loading, and maybe settling that miniscule pinch of powder more uniformly over the priming.
That trick's results seem plenty accurate enough to deal with the big ole Ground Squirrels here........very effective in terms of lethality pronto, too.

My 28" Winder Musket remains in it's original .22 Short chambering in a slower twist barrel. The CB shorts will just flat BUGHOLE outta' that one.

SHHhhhhhhhh quiet, too.

GTC

Excellent story Dan. I don't usually enjoy long postings, but this one is simultaneously informative and humorous.

Thanks!

GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How did I miss this one? I have been shooting the longs in an old Mossberg 44d and I am really impressed with their power, low volume and accuracy. The only thing I don't like is how they feed and I have to constantly tune the rifle to keep it shooting them good. Gonna have to bed it just so it won't be so finnicky. I have tried the shorts but they seem a bit louder. Dumped a feral cat a while back with them and must admit, it was more exciting than any big game hunting.

Digital Dan,

Thank you for your post. You have reminded us that a properly used decent .22 rifle and CB shorts can provide more fun than anyone should have without proper adult supervision!

DD,

Great post; you're a very gifted story teller!

I'm DEFINATELY going to HAVE to go out and get some CB shorts!!!!!!!!

A family affair, which illustrates the benefit of quiet. Same shot placement, the little one seemed rather indignant...briefly.



Different skull, same results. 2x8s in background for scale:



What CBs look like after taking a skull trip:

Dan;

great post, and i always keep a gun around of some sort sighted for CB's. i also have a fetish for assorted contender carbines ranging from the .17 calibers up to 45/70, and most everything in between.

my current "short shooter" dedicated to Cb's is a Marlin boltgun topped off with a 2x7 leupy. Havent had it very long really, bought it at a gunshow for a giveaway price because someone had broke the safety lever off ($7 to fix as i recall) so i drug it home & keep it stuffed with Cb shorts. it was even one of the snazzy "ducks unlimited" editions with the shiny little brass medallion in the stock.

Accuracy with the remmy CB's is somewhat ho-hum, need to feed it some other brands to see what flavor it likes.

as a kid, i did a LOT of squirrel hunting in the riverbottoms by sitting right under a big mulberry tree with my Marlin 39-M mountie stuffed with CB's or short, depening on what was in teh ammo caniet at the time.....the quiet CB's didnt spook the squirels in the area, and i pop them out of the tree & let them lay where they fell, over the course of a few hours i'd bag several, then pick up the whole lot.

Regards;

Gerald

Boy, I love CB caps as well.

They are fierce on all pests.

..man Dan your signature says it all.... "I am..........disturbed."

But you are one great hunter... Do you carry a backup handgun just in case one of the CBs bounces of one of those larger kritters and it gets pissed off....

Bob

RJM, no pistol, see part about tight laces on the tennis shoes.

Part of this deal is knowing when to NOT shoot and I've exercised that option many times. Usually patience will mend the problems and I get to see hogs break dance and all that, but not always.

Other things I do as a matter of habit:

-I have an exit plan in mind before pulling the trigger. (Have not had to exercise that yet, see next item)
-I do NOT leave anything to chance with the larger hogs.
-Will not take a hurried shot under any circumstance without certain knowledge it will succeed.

That means firing from a rest for starters. ("I think I shall never see, a poem lovely as a tree.") Spray and pray is an odd concept with a single shot, don't you think? I do know how to reload quickly, for the record.

One of my "learning moments" occurred late one day about 6 moths ago when a half dozen very small pigs ran up to me for reasons I'll not ever fathom. Weighed about 15# each, cute as they get and they approached from my back trail in something resembling an airport reunion.

All the leetle peegs were milling around my feet and it was sorta one of those Disney moments ya know, one with nature, all that crap. Was facing the back trail when there came a limb crack at me 3 o'clock and about 30'. Then a low grunt. Biggest sow I've seen...ever...anywhere, and she was a little skeptical about the goodness in my heart. That was one of those "don't shoot" moments. No rest, wrong aspect on the sow, all of it wrong as a football bat. The piglets started to follow me as I tippy toed away from the sow down the back trail. She grunted again as the whirling herd squealed and squeaked, ran off to her and that was that. It was a bit disconcerting, but hey, stuff happens to mice and men.

Disturbed Dan

Hey Dan, have you tried the tool that Komitadjie over on RFC sells? The one where you trim the nose of the bullet off to basically turn it into FP/SWC style bullet? They say the effect on small game is impressive, that it adds quite a bit of shock to the impact. He only charges about $15, I ordered a couple just to try out. You can get it in Short, Long, or LR versions. I got a short and a LR, should be here later this week.

No, haven't done that. Sort of thinking the trade of penetration for shock is not in my best interests so far as shooting pigs is concerned. Might be a good ploy for small game but there isn't much horsepower to sacrifice in this David v. Goliath exercise.

But would you really be trading? That is what I am trying to figure out in this deal. I tend to look at it as you would would with pistol rounds for hunting. The round nose and SWC are your deep penetrators in handgun rounds, it is not really untill you get into soft points and hollow points that you start trading expansion for penetration. Of course, the fly in the ointment to this line of thinking is that most SWC handgun bullets are hard cast to make them non-expanding, versus on the .22 CB where the bullet is soft lead. You're going to make me go shoot some in a penetration test when my tool gets here just so I can see how much real difference there is.

Of course pigs aren't the kind of vermin I have running around my neighborhood so it is really a moot point for me, mainly acedemic. I just want to know. Actually, what I need is something that limits penetration, pass-throughs are a real concern for my type of varmit control, which is why my tool of choice is a .22 air rifle employed much the same way you use CB's.

Do let us know what you find out with that adventure! Don't know if this helps perspective or not, but the HVHP shorts will NOT penetrate hog necks thru and thru. Little more expansion, fragmentation, velocity, they stop on the bone. Badda bing.

Main points I see in your comparison with pistol bullets: 1) agree with the assessment of RN penetration. Whether or not a harder alloy is necessary depends a lot on velocity I'm thinking. CCI CB shorts run around BHN 7-8. 2) You have a LOT more power to fool around with when using pistols, be it a .25 ACP or a .454. Given larger calibers and heavier bullets there will be penetration advantage over CBs almost without regard to bullet form.

Shot a hog several years ago with a .44 caliber 300 grain paper patch bullet of pure lead. Quartering shot that wiped out the right shoulder, a bunch of ribs, vertebrae, left hip and then to rest under the skin on the offside ham. Total penetration as measured in a straight line was ~24". It's represents a power luxury not present with CBs.

Great story! My experience with CBs goes back to my teenager days and a Rem 572BDL pump. Dad had put up a super tall TV antenna on the roof and it was a favorite resting stop for all kinds of feathered friends. Many a blackbird said hello to the little CB slug!

MtnHtr

Bump for Lee, to make this thread easy for him to find and read.

Hell, this thread oughta' have a sticky on it.

GTC

I tried shooting a grown beaver in the head years ago with a 4" S&W kit gun. The beaver was about 10-12 ft away at the other end of a trap chain and the bullet simply knocked a piece of hide off the skull right between the blinkers and from his body language REALLY POed the beaver, this is not a good idea BTW and I really thought he was going to attack, which they will do on occassion. Next round in the cylinder was a Super X LR which calmed the situation.
This ended my playing with the CB which *IMO* is useless. This may have been the CCI LR cased version.
Now I suppose its possible that with perfect angles it might make a hole. But other than wading out to the beaver (another bad idea) there was no way to get a better angle. I would never trust one for a similar application.

If we read Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" 1862 we will find the following passage.
"The prime object of a shot fired at any animal of chase, be it the bashful sort that fly from you, or the audacious sort that fly at you, is, if possible, to kill or disable that animal on the spot."

From what I have heard hogs sometimes "fly" at people if this occurs there is no careful head shot, you need a "stopper".

Dan

Didn't I read somehwere that a fella had shot hundreds of moose over a lifetime with his 22? No kidding.

Dphar, I am not questioning your experience.

I will say this: #1) One sample size does not indicate a trend. #2) the 4" barrel and the cylinder gap on a revolver may really have been the cause of your grief. Serious pressure loss right there. Dunno, just sayin.

Moose I don't know about, but there was a very large bear killed some years back by a woman with a .22 RF. One of the largest as I understand it. Don't think I'd want to visit that scenario myself.

Dan, I dunno what occurred with your beaver. It has been my observation that different animals have different architecture and I don't know anything about the 4 legged beaver. Mountain sheep have skulls which present a tremendous amount of bone around the brain so I'm fairly certain there could be a problem there too, perhaps even with CF rifles at an odd angle. I bounced a bullet from a .30-30 off a hog's forehead some years ago and she survived it to die another day. With that said, everybody has their own litmus on this subject and I don't recommend what I'm doing to anyone. Just passing along my experience.



All true, and it is an interesting read. See my comment about tightly laced tennis shoes. 67 hogs took one shot, one took two. Something is working. It is my opinion, as a result of this experience, that terminal ballistics may be one of the most poorly understood facets of the shooting sports. However, if one discards power for patience and precision, the standard is far less forgiving of error. Of that I am quite certain.

Are the CBs you talk about pointed? Any links you can provide?

thanks

Josey, no, they are current production ammo produced by CCI. They are from all appearances the same as a short but do not have quite so large a powder charge. I believe the ones you refer to are properly called CB Caps as opposed to CB Shorts.

CB Shorts: http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=0026

CB Caps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_CB_cap

FWIW, the market production of reduced loads (quieter) has grown greatly in the last few years and aside from the European production of BB and CB Caps, Winchester, Remington, CCI and probably some others are producing a wide array of "CB" ammo and other subsonic ammo. So far as performance, the LR based versions will likely provide better penetration if they are a RN form and not hollow point. The noise associated with any of this ammo is directly related to barrel length.

Bottom line is the bullet struck exactly as aimed and DID NOTHING aside from making a white mark where it skipped off. I have never had a 22LR or a 22 WMR preform in this manner, they ALWAYS WORK.
In a situation like this there are only two valid outcomes, works or does not work. If it does not work ONCE that is all that matters. It then is unreliable and thus is a waste of time, energy and money, this was a commercial enterprise not sport. It payed the bills. Using a CB cap simply meant it cost twice the time and money to kill the beaver over using the LR in the first place.
The beaver was supposed to drown and did not. Any beaver alive in the trap may possibly escape (we were getting 40-50 bucks for blankets at the time). They also tend to turn and face the trapper and thus the frontal shot is the only viable option in many cases.
There was no justification for trying it again.

Dan

Dphar, did you quit using those traps?

Dan, asking for clarification: Were you using CB "caps" or "shorts"? You used both terms yet they are quite different cartridges. CCI's introduction of the CB Long is fairly recent, sometime around 2007 if I recall correctly.

Dan the Other

According to CCI both are loaded to the same velocity with the same bullet.
I was using the long version and the beaver were paying for the birth of my son who is now 23.
I also seriously doubt that they were loaded to 710 fs as the current crop is though they might have been since this is what Barnes lists in my old (1980s) version of "Cartridges of The World". He also notes that both the long and short case versions were being produced and as I recall both appeared here at the same time circa early 80s.
I tried them because they were quiet and in this case I was doing control work near the land owners house.

Dan

It appears some instruction is required.

The trap was not at fault. In fact the trap performed flawlessly. I was forced by circumstance to set a trap in a spot where I was afraid the beaver might not drown, but the beaver had to die regardless, it was pest control. So it was MY fault not that of the trap. Just like it was my fault I used the CB cap.
Beaver escape traps in two ways, they may pull out if the trap is weak, is not set just right, the water level changes after the set is made or they just happen to step a little wrong, the planets line up wrong many reasons. Front feet are easy to hold but somewhat fragile if the beaver does not drown. This why drowning is preferred and works in the vast majority of cases. But sometimes it does not. Sh*t happens. So sometimes they get whacked with a stick or shot with a gun depending on the situation.

Shooting hogs with CB caps.
My view.
I could not care less if a hog gets someone down and scatters their guts in the bushes, especially if I don't have to witness or smell it. Will not change my life in the slightest, in fact if they get killed before they reproduce it leaves more room for my descendants so its a "win" for me in some ways. One of those Darwin Award things I guess. I personally would not want to be ate by hogs but, hey, lots of folks have weird fantasies I guess.
Someone can "get by" with things in potentially dangerous situations for long periods of time and then one day the factors all stack right and they die.

One of my fathers "American Folk Sayings" is "he went to sh*t and the hogs ate him". Doubtless he got this from my grandfather, HIS father raised free range hogs in post Civil War Arkansas. Makes one wonder where this quaint little saying originated.
There is an excellent write up in "Pondoro" by John Taylor concerning killing African Elephant in the 1930s with a smooth 10 bore percussion gun. He never lost an animal shot with it, "13 good bulls" and several Rhino. But he stated that he would not have wanted to face a charge with it.
Folks that hunt hogs with popguns might want to consider this statement.

Do I sound a little cranky?
I am, I have hunted since I was old enough to cock a BB gun in the late 50s. I passed on a personal experience that I thought was relevant to the discussion. People immediately want to poke holes in it, tell me I didn't know what cartridge I used or make smart assed remarks so as to justify behavior that I and apparently some others here view as at least risky.

Dan

So how are the three of you doing?
Good info Dan. Several things I wouldn't personally try but "facts is facts" and yours are very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

Nope, this is all good. Discussing important stuff like this keeps me sane.

Hey, I have a beaver skull at home. Found a dead beaver in the swamp last year while deer hunting. Saved the skull because my family and I are a bunch of biologists (parents by education).

I am curious how thick the area is between the eye sockets. Will take a picture tonight.

Nobody was making SA remarks or implying you didn't know which way was north. Nor am I trying to justify anything.

It wasn't clear to me what ammo you used due to mixed terminology, that's all.

My comment was smartass indirectly (where is that poking stick smiley)...not intended to anger Dan but get him talking and continue the conversation. I was pretty sure if he used a CB on a beaver the trap worked but it was not set where the beaver would drown on purpose.

I don't trap but I researched it a few months because our private lake has a serious beaver problem along with nutria. We are not allowed to shoot firearms in the County, it's all private waterfront so I can't set traps anywhere but my small area, dogs are everywhere and I cannot draw my Hoyt with my current RC tears.

I have been night hunting with a Primos light trying to thin them out, I have to be very careful since my neighbors are close and I have a very limited area I can shoot safely. The very reason I use CB's. I am positive I have hit 10-15 beaver in the head and they have slapped the water and resurfaced forty yards away. I think a few probably made it to the lodge and died.

On the other hand, I am not having any issues taking out nutria at 15-25 yards with headshots, probably 20 in the last six months, I have found plenty of floaters. I am saying I believe I am hitting my target.

The single beaver I recovered was shot in the spine and imobilized, I had to go back and get my Hoyt to finish her off. A fat 45 pounder and the skull is in the freezer. I plan to boil and bleach it soon.

Since that first beaver, I have thought the CB may not be punching through and after looking at the skull, it does appear pretty thick. I have not had many shots lately but I don't think between the eyes or top of the skull are going to work well on the fat bastards. It looks like shots from behind at the base of the skull and into the spine would be best or in the ear.

I was raised in N. FL and grew up hunting in hog country. The woods and swamps here were loaded with them. I also used to shoot them with a .22LR RF in the head. Solids worked very well, HP not as well. One particular time my son shot one in St. Marks NWR in the head, we found some blood but no hog. It was a big hog and I think it flattened out without penetration. So yes a .22RF will kill a hog, I would recommend using solids.

It is surprising what you can do when you don't know you can't.

Well, I didn't really see it that way but I suppose perception is 99% of reality. Sounds like beavers have harder noggins than hogs though. One of the things I do with this, implied but not clearly stated earlier, is aim for the target, not the piece of hide overlaying it. By that I mean if I'm going for a cervical shot, I am aiming for vertebrae. Not sure that makes sense, but in essence I am aiming for the system I want to disrupt. Brains, not foreheads?

So far as bullets bouncing off, the reports I've read of various .22 RF bullets bouncing off of critters are numerous. Some I don't give credence and others I do. The event I told earlier about the .30-30 bouncing off tells me that if you have a shallow enough impact angle, anything is possible. If I'm shooting one today with the CB I wait for as near as perpendicular as possible between skull and bullet path for this reason. Such angles can be had if a hog is feeding, or if they are aware of you, they will alternate between looking at you over their nose (raised) and then lowering their snout nearly to the ground for a brief moment. If I don't get that presentation, I don't shoot.

Actually you sound "a lot" cranky! Which turns me off sir. Makes me want to totally blow off and ignore everything you say as irrelevant to this particular thread. You disagree with someone? Fine. But as pointed out, "one experiment" does not a conclusion make! Now if you had tried dispatching several beavers, with more powerful backup ammo in the other cylinders - and more recent than 24 years ago, then maybe "your point" would be worthwhile. You're not much of a scientist or statistician? Are you?

Digital Dan writes about his expeiences, with humor and toungue and cheek. His style. I'll take what D-Dan says with a little (tiny bit) grain of salt, but so far his "experiences" seem consistent to me, and my more limited experiences shooting CCI CB ammo and a few Remington CeeBee's that were discontinued, then started again recently. Haven't tried any since R-P resumed production.

My interest in shooting CB ammo isn't to dispatch hog, sine we don't have hogs in the North Wett. But "CB's" and CCI .22Short Target loads are part of my kit!

Digital Dan's experiences and writings are invaluable, in my opinion. I agree there should be a sticky on this thread! And many other D-Dan's threads regarding specialty .22 shooting and ammo choices.

Digital Dan: Thank you VERY MUCH for sharing your experiences, and also your whit and style.

DING DING DING! You got it Dan. OK here is a picture of a Beaver skull that I mentioned earlier. That sucker is as flat as could be, ESPECIALLY between the eye sockets. Don't know how well you can tell in the pic, but trust me, that area is flat. If the rascal was looking straight at you, I can guarantee a glancing hit. If you were aiming from above the beaver's head, I am convinced it would kill him at said range with said kit gun.

BTW, nobody here is wanting to get into a pissin match, so no need to get defensive about your single (1 sample) experience. <grin>.

Oh, one other thing, the skull has good mass with good support from the inner bones of the eye sockets where the bullet was said to glance off.

I dispatch (OK, kill) varmints in my "live" trap in my yard on a pretty regular basis (I have chickens). I get above the head, and shoot down.

I'm also a big fan of CB's. I tend to use CCI Longs because that's what's available locally. About a year ago, I bought a Paco Tool and give the bullets a minor resizing. This improves groups and the slightly dished-faced bullet seems to hit a little harder. The Paco kit also contains a punch which creates hollow points, but I've found this to be a waste of time on CB's. The hollow points won't expand no matter what you shoot them into.
I mostly use CB's on pests raiding my vegetable garden and 20 tropical fruit trees. My "hate meter" registers as follows:
Cottontail rabbits send me into a wall-eyed rage. If one appeared in my yard while I was talking to a leggy young PETA volunteer named Jill at my front door, I'd still grab my rifle and begin pinging away instantly.
Raccoons. I don't really get any pleasure from trapping and shooting every one that I see, whether they are causing problems or not, but I still do. It's just something that must be done. Sooner or later, they will begin causing problems.
Possums. I generally leave them alone until certain fruit become ripe and they start raiding.
Armadillos. I ignore them until they take to rooting in my vegetable garden. Then, they get whacked. They're welcome to root in my lawn without retaliation.
Feral cats. No problem. Nobody feeds them. We only have a few here, and who knows, they might be killing rats and mice out there at night. Go for it, kitties!
I live in a rural area in Florida, and we certainly have wild hogs here. I sometimes see them on my morning runs, and some of my neighbors have had them rooting in their yards, but they haven't come on my property yet. When they do, the war begins.
The great thing about my neighborhood is anybody can fire large weapons anytime they want, and nobody complains. It happens all the time. Even though I've been assured that nobody would get angry if I controlled my nocturnal pests with something louder than a .22 CB, I have too much respect for my neighbors than to disturb their slumbers in the middle of the night.
We're just one big redneck family around here!

Sounds pretty logical and straight-forward to me!

BTW, when growing up my teen years in NW Florida, met a fellow who's dad lived in Alaska. When visiting his pops once, Dennis claimed he witnessed a BROWN BEAR take a hit between the eyes with a .30/06, then watch as the bullet just fell to the ground! Was that a freak bear? O freak round or incident?

I suppose either is possible, but I wouldn't have fired only once! Plus I would've tried shooting the bear in the neck and mouth (closer to the spine and jugular that way), if not the shoulder and chest. But a bear is definitely a different critter than a hog or beaver too.

I can remember at least two head-on shots when I aimed right between the eyes, looking at the skull I bet it glanced off.

About 90% of my shots are when they are swimming past and I have aimed at the center of mass about at the water line. I am sighted in for 25 yards but at 10-15 I would be a little high.

I picked up the Horton crossbow off the classifieds so I may try another form of attack pretty soon. My Gold Tips float and I am hoping the crossbow bolts do the same.

Can certainly see how a bullet would bounce off a beaver's skull if it was looking at you. Darn flat and thanks for the photo. Took a second to realize what I was looking at. "Klingons?" sez me noodle for a second...

Good thread I have been enjoying it, well most of it, since the beginning.
I have been dispatching critters with CB's since the 70's maybe earlier, as I don't recall exactly when I first began to use them.

Todays thinking on how much gun is needed is way out of proportion to what is actually needed,,, But that is my personal opinion. Shot placement IMHO is the real key, not so much what is used.

In the early 60's I saved and bought a Sheridan 5MM Blue Streak pellet gun, that I still use on occasion. It has dispatched no telling the critters, undoubtedly thousands, of many varieties since, with 14 grain pellets, at never more than CB velocities.

I have also killed a number of hogs with a .22 pistol. Model 17 Smith K-22 6". All my loads were HV .22LR. Hogs aren't that big a deal, given the chance they will go the other way, cornered/trapped, or if you mess with a sow's little ones, it is a different story.

Had a friend who was a warden with Florida FWC and worked the area of the Fakahatchee Strand down in the 'Glades. Unarmed, taking a stroll and heard some noise in the palmettos. A little shoat of about 5 pounds comes running over to him and....he picked it up. It squealed a little and there came a grunt, just before the earth trembled.

He told me later that he wondered for nearly 45 minutes just what it was he was thinking, that while up in a slender pine sapling that swayed and cracked a little each time momma hit it, inches below his feet. Don't know he ever found an answer to that....but he came away a wiser man.

I am VERY tempted to take that skull out back and load up my old 3 screw single six with CB Longs and.........see what happens at 10 feet (shooting down between the peepers). But since I already know what the outcome would be (a destroyed beaver skull), I am not going to do it.

Wow, emotions running high since last I visited this thread...

Dphar, you did the right thing by executing an immediate failure to stop drill by popping the malevolent beaver again. Head shots can bounce off that's a natural fact be it beavers, elefantes or human critters coming at you like a crazy spider monkey.

Got a tape that shows a dude getting out of his truck with a .30 M1 Carbine fixing to shoot one of our officers. Slug from a .40 SIG blows the hair on the side of his head straight up and merely knocks him down because it was at a glancing angle.

You, and the guy who's failing to anchor swimming beaver with head shots need a to practice failure to stop drills on secondary targets on these beavers.

Shoot 'em thru the lungs if the heads are too tough or angled!

I am wondering if the Paco Tool's changing the RNs to a flatpoint would be a good or bad thing for penetrating a hog's skull...they do make my .22 more accurate.

Were I shooting hogs I'd hedge my bets and move up to the magnum force of a CCI subsonic flattened with a Paco Tool.

Meanwhile, Dphar, Digital Dan and even I, need to relax and kill more critters.

It is, after all, a Dan's World.

Best,

Dan G.

Hi Digital Dan

Since you apparently post on the WSU site, check with SPG and ask him. He was running traps with me. He saw the beaver after I got it out of the trap.

I understand the need for noise reduction. I understand pest control.

Yes, they have hard skulls, yes the angle was bad. I have little doubt that with a perfect angle its probably going to punch through, but I can get to the brain at any angle with a LR. Shoot for the neck? I don't want holes behind the ears if I am selling the fur.
But the bottom line is still as follows.
CB bounced off, LR did not. I shot with the CB, saw the result thumb cocked it and shot again just that fast so its not like I had a different angle etc. Even if they worked 3 out of 5 times it would not be good enough.

For those that have beaver trouble, it is very unlikel that shooting is going to work vry well (maybe maybe not) so find someone who knows how to do control work. But he has to be allowed access to the necessary areas. 330 Conibear *done right* in the bank den opening is lights out in about 5 minutes after hitting the trap and the dogs can't get too them (but otter can). No worry about CB bullets skipping off and going through the neighbors picture window either. But he might want $50 each to come trap them since the fur may not pay the gasoline right now.

Dan

Dan, I do hang out there at WSU and Mr. SPG has regaled me with tales of you fellas roughing it out in the wild. I do not, nor have I ever doubted your words. Your expertise with use and building of muzzle loading arms is far beyond anything I'll ever do, so I sit back and admire your work and wonder just how cold that water is when you wade around in buckskins setting traps. That's another subject of which I know nothing. SPG implies that water is fair cold during the spring melt, I believe him. Truly.

As I write, there is work underway in an Armory in Cody on an old small bore CF rifle and a .22 WRF Winchester pump...and a new slug gun creation. Of the three, the slug gun would be inappropriate for hogs unless I contrive a bench/blind combination and exude infinite patience. Both of the others would be superior for hogs no doubt, however, there is the matter of what I am allowed to do here by the state.

I am working an area of approximately 1200 acres in a permitted hog eradication program. This land is part of an island of about 3500 acres. About half the land is a preserve dedicated to endangered (1) or threatened (2) species habitat, that being an objective with which feral hogs are wholly incompatible. There are adjacent parcels of privately held land to which I also have access, so there is latitude to both trap and stalk. All of the smaller portion of state land and all of the private land is snuggled up in the middle of rural residential property and I do not have the latitude to use anything other than rimfires, with emphasis by the state in avoiding conflict with the residents.

I will state categorically that I could use LR ammo and meet the state's requirements. On the other hand, certain home owners adjacent to portions of the state lands and all of the private property are vociferously anti hunting and anti gun. When I do my chores and they remain blissfully unaware of my presence, we are all happy. Of the rimfires I own, and as measured with a sound meter, none are as quiet as the CB short shooter and none suitable for the task are more accurate. To that end, I have found the CB short adequate in all regards and have yet to collect battle scars beyond those inflicted by the NVA in times long past. I have no death wish or desire for more scars.

Semper Swamp,

Dan the Other

Dan,

It's a private lake and the HOA is not doing much if anything as far as hiring a trapper. They all talk about it but most everyone just wraps the Cypress and Willow. So I did my own research and watched many videos on the Conibear 330 but did not follow through with it.

The lodge is on a steep embankment with no way to set the trap from the neighbors yard and the water is about 6' deep at a 45 degree slope at one entrance. I think the second entrance is shallower and it may be possible to set the trap with my jonboat.

I have about 100' of lakefront and if you can suggest methods to bait them to my side I would be interested. It is much shallower and I can set traps easily.

I will say this, it is a lot of fun trying to ping them with the CB's but the destructive bastards need to be thinned.

My Cooper is sub-.75" at 50 yards almost 100%. I can re-zero to 25 yards and use match ammo at 1080fps, they won't swim away. I would be limited to shots directly at the lodge though and could only shoot once a night and late.

This thread has inspired me to start my quiet 22 experiments agin. I want to find an inexpensive rifle to set up for CCI CB longs (locally available) for the occaisional pest erradication.

On beavers, I have been getting rid of them on our farm for years and I shoot a 223 or a 300 savage (when deer hunting...), and only taken a few with a 22lr. What I have noticed with 22 lr is they need to be out of the water and closer. If you shoot them in the water, the water absorbs a lot of the shocking energy andf they are just tough critters with hard skulls and heavy muscle mass.
I open their dam to really lure them in. What brings them in is hearing water flow, sensing the flow, and sensing the water drop. Not sure how to do that on a lake situation.

The question about when the CB short and longs were introduced caused me to inquire with CCI. The question put to them was:



The response:



I had no idea........

This explains many things, I had already figured the noise thing was an issue. I hate people knowing where I am.
I camped out a lot in a jungle paradise, the NVA missed me with solid objects though. But they seriously killed my poucho early one morning and it is somewhat disconcerting when the sun comes up and you have a "target backer" so to speak.

Welcome home.

Dan

Beaver are easily caught with a castor based bait. Search the WWW. Don't over pay its not rocket science like some Coyote baits seem to be.
But you need a pretty good leg hold trap Bridger #5 is good.
Need a flat spot big enough for the trap with 4" of water. Trap chain needs to be 6' so add some chain wire is not reliable except for tying to the stake. Stake in deep water using a dry or pealed stick about 2" diameter. Beaver will cut it off and carry away green with bark. Put another stake out 2-3 feet farther out to entangle. Beaver in 3 ft of water will die about as soon this way as in a 330 (they don't kill beaver instantly).
Good sets will run 75% till the beaver are gone or pull out due to casualties.
Dip a 12" or so dry twig in the lure and stick in the back about 15" above the trap.

Also. There should be bank holes as well as a lodge. These are killers with a 330. But you must know the direction of travel so feel with a stick. Also they often eat in these and carry sticks in and out or the older beaver use them the get away from the kits its seems. Carried sticks often trip conibears.
Fold the trigger to about 2-3" long then st it about 3-4" off center. You don't want to just wack a big beaver on the head.

From the jon boat figure how long your stakes need to be to get to the bottom and hold the 330 steady (you can use multiple stakes so long as they are INSIDE the springs, then wire the trap to the stakes to give the proper elevation. Use a wire to another stake or well anchored stick in the lodge. If you go to pounding on the lodge etc the beaver will likely come out.

Make sure you can legally trap houses. If control work sometime all laws are off but check with the fish cops.

Beaver will move into good areas so you will likely have them return every year or two from up or down stream etc.

If you kill one and retrieve the body you can make your own lure from the castors.
Gotta head for the big city. VA want to check my hearing. Wife is tired of "huh?"
Dan

you heard him, Casturbate 'em.

You too. Target backer...yep, did that.

You owe me a new keyboard fella!

I was in Wal Mart today and saw that they had the .22 CB shorts in stock. Price was around $7.50. I have been using the CB longs, but they did not have any.

I know velocity is the same for both, so any advantage to the CB shorts? I figure that the longs will feed better in all .22's, so why get the shorts?

I have a short chamber, so longs aren't on the menu with the Contender.

Otherwise the longs seem to shoot better in LR chambers. Crossfireoops made what I think is a telling comment about the longs earlier when he mentioned they shoot better for him if he tips the barrel up before shooting to settle the powder to the rear of the case. Haven't gone there myself but it makes sense.