My dad recently started rumbling about wanting a 22 Mag for some close in groundhog shooting (fields too small for centerfires, but wanting a bit more punch than a LR).

Then yesterday, we hit a local gunshop while out running around, and they had a very nice used Marlin 17VS sitting on the rack. Seems that now he's got the itch for something that he has zero experience with.

Anyway, I've always been a straight LR shooter. For those that have experience with the "other" rimfires, two questions...

Would you go 22 Mag or 17 HMR (and why)?

Secondly, can anybody recommend a reasonably priced, accurate, rifle in one chambering or the other?

Thanks!

I'll tell you this right now.

I have messed with just about every sub $1K 17HMR bolt rifle made in the last 10 years. I also shot a lot of fine 22 mags during the 20 years bofore that.

For the Money- you WILL NOT buy a better made nor more accurate Magnum rimfire rifle than that Marin 17VS (which is no longer made).

I have never seen one once properly broken in that was not a SOLID MOA rifle with an entire clip full of ammo. Many have crowded 1/2 MOA with their favorite loads.

If your dad gets into the Marlin for the right amount of ($$ $250 or so) then it will be no problem for him to sell it down the road if he wants something different.

One thing to discuss with your dad is IMHO hunting groundhogs with a rimfire magnum(any caliber) is about like hunting deer with a .223. Yes - it will kill cleanly- but accurate placement of the shots is a must- there is no room for error. The 17HMR exterior ballistics help with that greatly. Out to 125 yards is shoots straight as a string and can hit a quarter with it every shot if you are up to it.

I've had three .17HMRs since they've been introduced, and I concur with jim62's post. I did not sell any of them, but gave one to a friend who just "needed one" since he didn't have one :^) . I've still got two, and will probably add a .22 Mag barrel to the CZ455 just because I can do so.

I've made 250 yard, one shot kills on prairie dogs with my Marlin, something I wouldn't have thought possible. It's a heckuva cartridge for a rimfire.

Buy both!!


You live once.....

Thanks to all for the positive reinforcement.

Looks like a run back to the shop on Monday to sate his appetite. BTW, they want $300 for it, in excellent condition, with some cheapish scope on it. I guess he's not stealing it, but not too far out of line either.

As for this:



He's 71 years old, and been killing 'hogs for many many years. He has started hitting a few smaller fields, where a 223/22-250/etc just wouldn't be welcome. He is smart enough to realize the shortcomings of a rimfire (though we've killed a bunch with the straight 22 LR version over the years), so it sounds like it may be just what is needed for some of these places.

Thanks again!

I would get a 22 Magnum if you want to shoot groundhogs. The 17 HMR required head and neck shots to anchor the groundhogs I tried to shoot. The 22 Magnum will kill with body shots. The 17 HMR was more accurate than the 22 Magnum, but considering the distances you would be using it, I would not worry about it. I got rid of the 17 HMR and now only have a 22 Magnum and I don't miss the 17.

I would recommend the CZ 452 and 453 rifles in whatever catridge you decide to get.

What does 17HMR ammo sell for in your area? That was the deciding factor for me when I had mine. 17 ammo around here went apeschitt. 16-18 a box. Premium 22mag can still be had for 10-12. If your shooting it in quantity that makes a helluva difference.

Yeah, I just bought a box of Winchester 40 grain hollowpoints for $11 and the store also had the Federal 50 grain for $10. I didn't look at the 17 HMR prices, but they have gone up for sure.

The 17HMR is going to be flatter shooting.. but the 22 Mag offers a heavier bullet for a heavier animal such as a ground hog..

I always struggle with the logic on the ones I have.. but for a guy who is 71, actually either one would make perfect sense..

if I make it that far, maybe mine will be more attractive to me then..

I have 22 mags in Marlin and Ruger and also a 17 in both Marlin and Ruger...plus one each in an NEF...

ever think of down loading your 223 with a Sierra 50gr blitz, better than the 17HMR and 22 mag, and just as loud

for groundhog a .22 mag hands down

There, you have it. That's the answer...

I have both. The .22WMR hits with a bit more thump, the .17 HMR is more accurate and has a more effective reach. FMJ CCI rounds in the .17 HMR kills hogs pretty well. Don't try that with the plastic tips. The most accurate .17 HMR round in my Anschutz 1717 is the CCI TNT, using the Speer HP bullet.

IMHO,

DF

For close in Groundhogs (out to about 125yds) I use my 22 WMR's (Savage/Anschutz 164M and Savage/Anschutz M54 sporters)and they have done a great job with the Rem. 33gr plastic tip bullets.
I'd find a good 22 WMR scope it and go shoot chucks.

Dirt Farmer..

try the 22 Mag ammo with the Polymer tips like the 17HMR has.. and you'll find them to be just as accurate...

at least in newer guns... the older ones seem to like the 40 grain bullets..

Thanks for the info. I'll give it a shot...

DF

Good suggetion except for the 40 grain pills. Luckily mine (old chuckster) likes the federal 50 gr. hollowpoint, which does a great job on coyotes as well as sagerats and other vermin...The 33gr. remington accutip (I think that's what they call them) works like gangbusters in the old girl too (1/2" groups at 50 yards...

To answer your question, I'd look at the savage or marlin 983 bolt action in 22 magnum. I'm like you though, if it's close range I'd opt for a good accurate 22 LR over either one....Much cheaper to shoot and the hp's will do their job..

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/22WinMagnum/983.asp

Try that Hornady 30gr. Vmax load. A buddy's CZ452 will shoot that load into a 1/2" @ 100 yards with it. I saw it happen, and when he let me shoot it, I could duplicate it. Good stuff, it almost swayed me into a .22 Mag, but the HMR is still my favorite, flatter shooting and better in the wind than most folks think.

22 mag hand down!

Mine didn't like the hornady's. It shot the cheap azz winchester's better....

I go with the .22 WMR as well!!! Why? THe .22 mag will do EVERYTHING a .17 can , but not vice-vera. The .22 mag has more thump and in the 2 that i have, are very very accurate (ruger 77/22 and a Rem 597), both are factory spec, except for trigger work on both!

The Rem. Prem 33 gr ammo that was mentioned in an earlier reply is hands down a thunder striker and accurate as as all get out.

Coldbore: Go with the 17 HMR - absolutely!
I can also almost help you two with the second part of your question - I highly recommend the rotary magazine bolt action heavy barrel Ruger 77/17 VBZ (V/T).
They are universally accurate and wonderful afield for reliability and convenience - unfortunately they may not be "reasonably priced" depending on your definition of "reasonable".
I killed my first Ground Hog with a 22 Magnum rimfire - more than 50 years ago and have used many of them over the years - then about 10 years ago I got my first Rifle in 17 HMR and I have been using them extensively since then.
There is NO comparison in lethality or accuracy between the 17 HMR and the 22 Magnum - the 17 HMR is superior in both regards!
The lethality advantage of the 17 HMR over the 22 Magnum is especially notable when used on the larger small game and Varmints like Jack Rabbits, Rock Chucks, Badgers, Porcupines, Coyotes, Fox and Wild Turkey!
Good luck to you both in your search.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Bring your 17 rimfire to Wyoming and shoot a turkey.....please!

22 Magnum will do everything a 17 will do only better and you don't have to buy new cleaning equipment!

I'll bring mine......



Fire up the BGE!!

The local warden might object to a 17 rimfire used on a turkey........ would be my point

Don't tell him about the cause of death, just invite him to partake of the BGE.....

BGE??

Varmintgay is a clueless dumbphuck. Tell your dad to get himself a .22 Mag. and rest assured he has the best rimfire chuck killer short of the 5mm Remington mag..

Think I'd lean for the 22 Mag having owned both ( and still do) the .17HRM and the 22 Mag. 17 will shoot flatter after 100 yds, and I have been amazed at how far away you can shoot praire dogs with it! Had a family of ground hogs move in under my green house a couple years ago, and went to work clearing them out. Shot 5, three with a 17HRM and 2 with 22 Mag. two of the ones shot with th 17 made it back under the green house. Both shot with the Mag were DRT!

Kind of funny how this thread has changed.

At first, it seemed pretty solid 17 HMR. Now it's swung to mostly 22 Mag.

If I ran out early, he'd have the 17 HMR already, and then have to second guess himself due to later posts.

If we go today, he might get a 22 Mag instead now.

Maybe we'll wait till tomorrow to go, and see which way you all are leaning then.


Seriously, I do appreciate the input. Like I said, I've fired millions (well, OK...) rounds of 22 LR, but nothing else. I've been around, and heard plenty about, the 22 Mag over the years. But I just never really tuned in to the 17 talk, as I figured I'd never have one. I still won't, but now that my dad is thinking about one, I wanted to try to at least have *some* basis of comparison.

He did get some sticker shock on Sunday. We were back at the VA for a follow up, and hit another chain sporting goods shop. I grabbed a couple boxes of CCI promo type 22 LR ammo, 525 count for $15. He asked about 17 HMR. Pretty much the same price, but for 50. So I got 10 times more ammo for the same price. That was an eye opener for him. Sure, the CCI stuff is just lead round nose for can shooting, but still... The shop was the Marlin was closed on Sunday, so he had time to let the ammo cost sink in, and mentioned it again yesterday. He was mentioning 17 HMR vs 22 mag, vs 222/223, and I threw in the "downloaded 223" just to really cloudy up the waters. I'm not sure what he's thinking now. Either way, I'm sure I'll be going along for a ride whenever he makes up his mind.

Get a CZ 455 with both barrels...

Did "I" personally ever think of loading a 223 down?

ask anyone on here who knows me....

If I only had a nickel for every time I have been flamed over that info...

and/or had a penny for everyone who has PM'ed me for load data on that subject...

That's strange before VG jumped in and blew the thread apart I saw one post singing the praises of the a Marlin .17 (but that had as much or more to do with the platform) and another post where it stated that the poster had 2 .17's and was gonna get a .22m but didn't really recommend one over the other. Other than that it's been pretty much a .22M thread from the start. What were you seeing?

I've always been a believer that you don't gain killin power buy reducing bullet diameter and weight for a given base cartridge. You may not lose as much as some might lead you to believe but you definitely don't gain. That being said unless you are shooting out past 125 yards it ain't gonna make much of a of difference regardless which one you choose. Both have benefits over the other but it's not like one is heads and tails better. Just different.

I personally like small groups and flat trajectory so I'd go .17 and live with it. But unlike VG, I'm not gonna make claims that it's flat out better than the .22M. I'd be wrong.

CB

BH: You always have such a hard time expressing your feelings...

Don't be so literal. Think more general, overall terms here. It's not a "count the votes" poll.

The first two posts leaned more towards the 17 vs the 22.

If somebody was to make a decision based solely on the first responses, I'd say they would've picked the 17.

Then it got decidedly 22 after that.

Nothing scientific, just my observation.

Then, just to complicate things, you go back to the 17.

I like both cartridges and currently have several rifles chambered for each, but if limited to 1 or the other, I'd pick the 22 MRF 'cause you can shoot varmints with the lighter/faster/quicker expanding bullets and, in a pinch, shoot deer with the 40 or 45 grain SPs. That is why my survival kit includes a Savage 24 combination gun in 22MRF over 20 gauge and a stainless Rossi 515 22 MRF revolver.

Jeff

Got both - Ok I cheated and have a Sako Quad.

17 HMR for effect, flat shooting and reach

If the critter is tough I change out to the 22 Mag -
i.e. - Coons and such that can be tough as nails.

Best thing about the 17 is it made ammo company's develop some new bullet s for the 22 mag. Hasbeen

For folks who are incredbily ignorant of the 17HMR's capabilities, I am SURE that is true..

Just went through this same scenario....

From the info i had heard i saw a Savage stainless .17 HMR at a shop. It was used, but price was good. Took home and it shot really well. Only problem is that it wouldn't extract the spent cases.

Brought it back to shop. No more .17's in stock but had a Marlin XT .22WMR NIB . Was a little reluctant, but for $200....what the hell.

Glad i did. With the Hornady 30g Vmax bullets, this thing is unbelievable..... the crows, the bunnies, and the woodchucks really, really hate that gun.

Funny, while out running earlier this evening, I hit a local store that had an XT-22 on the rack. Being unfamiliar with it, I asked to see it. Seemed pretty basic and no-frills, but like you say, at $200...

I didn't take it, but thought about it.

Sounds like yours shoots pretty good. Anything else to add on it, good or bad?

With most guys here now saying go 22 Mag over the 17 HMR, maybe I'll go back tomorrow and pick it up (it's on sale through tomorrow night).

I have owned and killed stuff with both. In my opinion no rimfire kills with the 22 mag (except maybe the 5mm rem). The problem with the 22 mag is I have never owned one that would shoot very well and I have owned some with high dollar price tags. Most would be lucky to shoot 2 inches at a 100. Around here a 22 mag is considered a good deer rifle and lets just say it works...

Every 17 hmr I have owned would shoot. The 17 kills ok but does not seem to kill with same authority as the mag. I have also always been able to kill way farther with the 17 than I could the mag.

If bigger animals are going to be shot go with the mag. If smaller critters are going to be shot go with HMR.

Dink

Dink's right. I've heard stories of guys in the old days taking their 22 mags and shooting deer with good success...I don't condone it but I hear they work quite well....My chuckster 22 mag shoots great though and I've got a friend that shoots a marlin 983 that has the same luck with his rifle. This old chuckster still puts them into 1/2" at 50 with 3 different types of ammo after numerous times to the range to find those winning combos...The 17's that I've had experience with don't seem to be as fincky as the 22mags. Here's a good shootin old 22 mag:

What is the make and model of your rifle?

I ain't the guy you were askin', but it's a Mossberg 640 Chuckster, and his is in particularly good condition.

One of my cousins has one, and I'm gonna try to talk him out of it, next time I see him.

I think that is the first Mossberg I've ever seen that I liked.

Ratsmacker,

Thanks for the i.d. on the rifle. I have never seen one and I like what I see.

I was finally able to get back there today.

Sure enough, it was gone.

So, that helped to make my decision a little easier.

Now looking for a good 22 Mag....

Saw a very nice, used, 452 American at another shop last week. It was quite nice, but priced at $450, which seemed to be at the top end after doing some online searching.

Sure did seem like a nice rifle though...

Yep, that's what it is. An old mossberg chuckster. It is damn accurate, almost to the point it's scarry....It has the 24" long barrel on it and is a joy to shoot. My dad used it when he was a kid so I had to replace the inards with new stuff so it's like new on the inside (firing pin, hammer, extractors, etc, you name it, it's got it...). Plus he took really good care of it and the stock and metal are in excellent original shape. It's got an old weaver 3-9x40 on it. Great little squirrel and coyote gun....

Coldbore,

I paid around $400 when I bought mine.

bsa1917hunter,

I am going to keep a lookout for the Mossberg Chuckster when I look through the used gun rack

They are great rifles known for having great accuracy...Good luck in your search...

Keep an eye on this one. It is exactly like what I have (640KD chuckster), and this one is in excellent condition. I'm curious as to how much it will sell for too. Probably in the neighborhood of $300.00+ or so....:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=280418693

I had four different chucksters back in the day. One was very accurate, the other 3 were pretty ho-hum.

Coldbore.........

I ended my search with a Ruger 77/22 VBZ. Other then heavey trigger (currently fixing that), shots LIGHTS OUT with Rem Prem vmax 33gr.

My choice came down to this gun or that CZ 452 american. Good luck finding and deciding on the gun....thats HALF the fun!!!

Hey... any chance you still have that .223 with douglas bbl still laying around?

Had a neighbor/hunting buddy that had one of the Rugers about 20 years ago. I remember at the time thinking that while I had no interest in a 22 Mag (then), that it was a darn nice rifle.

Just can't bring myself to spring for $450 for the used CZ 452 American, when I'm seeing new (leftovers, I know they stopped making them) ones for less than that on the big gun auction sites.

Sooner or later, I'll find what I'm looking for.



Check your PMs.

[quote=ColdBoreJust can't bring myself to spring for $450 for the used CZ 452 American, when I'm seeing new (leftovers, I know they stopped making them) ones for less than that on the big gun auction sites. [/quote]

Perhaps true ... NOW add shipping and FFL transfer fees ... how close are the prices now? Sounds like a lotta extra hassle to save $5 - $10.

YMMV

Don't forget tax on the used one as a retail sale, which offsets the shipping/FFL, and widens the gap back out.

Besides, new vs used, for the same (or less) money)? Which way would you go...?

Here in WA we have to pay sales tax on private party sales that go through an FFL ... If I buy a firearm outta state from a private party, I have it sent as a trade ... therefore no sales tax.

Personally don't sweat a couple bux and would buy locally if its what I wanted ... the extra coin is worth holding it in hand before plunking down my money. I have ordered new and haven't regretted it yet. I also hate waiting. New vs. used don't bug me none ... its not a car. I would worry why a relatively new gun is on the used rack. But I've scored a gem or two that way.

Good Luck with your purchase ... choose a route and avoid the consternation .... you'll sleep better

They can be particular on what ammo you feed them, but once you find what they like they can be tack drivers....atleast this has been my experience. Mine really likes the remington 33 gr. accutip, federal 50g. hollow point, and the cheap winchesters......It doesn't care for CCI's, hornady's plastic tipped bulets, or some of the other lighter federals......

Coldbore,

If ya still in the market for a 22Mag...PM me and I will get a pic of mine and send to you. Send me an addy. Mine is a Marlin 982VS (I think that is it but will need to check) with a bull barrel (don't let that scare ya as it is not all that heavy) and stainless barrel but not the glossy version. I bought new and have the box. I just want to reduce my inventory since I have some incoming medical bills. This Marlin shoots good and if I remember it shoots the 40gr best. Let me know via PMs...

ColdBore: Trajectory comparisons for 17 HMR and 22 Magnum:

17 HMR @ 50 yards +0.1"
22 Mag @ 50 yards +0.6"

17 HMR @ 100 yards 0.0"
22 Mag @ 100 yards 0.0"

17 HMR @ 150 yards -2.6"
22 Mag @ 150 yards -4.5"

These tables are compiled from comparing AccuTip-V to AccuTip-V Remington factory munitions - the superiority of the 17 HMR is even more profound when comparing the 17 HMR AccuTip-V to the Remington hollow-point and solid point offerings!

Reference: 2,012 Remington Firearms, Ammunition & Accessories Catalog - page 100.

Go with the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I use to hunt groundhogs with a 22 magnum quite a bit growing up.

Body shots are not consistent in anchoring them before getting down holes--some will but a lung shot will often not.

For that reason, I'd be looking at head shots only, and for that, a 17 will get it done more easily if you want to stretch it past 100 yards.

The 22 mag has lots more power but it functions more like a deer bullet (never tried the tipped ammo though).

I've always liked the .22wmr, and have had some good shooters in that cartridge- an 1894M, 9422M, and then a 782. My current one is an 882SS (not SSV, which I found after side-by-side trial was not any more accurate). My 882ss is better than I am.

I am duly impressed with the accuracy of a .17, having many opportunities with one at the range, but my love affair with my S&W648, which I carry with the 882ss when chuckin', keeps my loyalty with the wmr. The 648 is just plain fun, and I can't wait to get my hands on the PMR-30 to compliment it. Expensive, yes, but the fun and capabilities far outweighs the price.

Said before, get one of each.

As often happens only part of the story is being told here. Lets take a look at energy, using the same data, bullet, etc from the Remington catalog.

17 HMR - Energy @ muzzle 245 foot-pounds
@ 50 yds 185
@ 100 yds 136

22 Win Mag - Energy @ muzzle 293 foot-pounds
@ 100 yds 219
@ 100 yds 164

When all the facts are presented it is apparent that the 17 HMR shoots a bit flatter, but for energy on the target the 22 Win Mag is the winner.
It is not that difficult to hold the 22 Win Mag a bit higher but it is impossible to increase the energy with the 17 HMR. The catalog does not show 150 yd energy but the 22 mag would still have a lead in the energy.

drover

Gotta put a vote in for the 22 Mag. I shoot a Ruger VMBZ in 22 Mag and have killed a ton of groundhogs with it. I like the ability to have different bullet weights to use. My load of choice is the CCI "TNT". You can hear them pop when they hit a hog...No exits for the most part..Just gels the inside..

If your still trying to decide on which caliber to get, my vote goes to the 22 mag. 22 mag shoots plenty flat enough for small game, with more ft lbs of energy than the 17. And check out how much more, 17 hmr ammo costs over 22 wm. That should be a factor too !

I haven't figured out yet what my HMR does that another cartridge doesn't do better. Not knocking it, just saying.

I never did either, which is why I sold it.

I'll take a 22 mag any day over a HMR. The 50 grain HP's are fantastic takers of game up to coyote and the old 40 grain ain't bad either. I have tried the light weights and they left me unimpressed

For groundhogs the 22mag is superior.
The HMR really shines on gophers past 150 yds.
Bigger than P-dogs or something you want to eat, go 22mag.
Ground squirrel zapper that you don't holdover to 200, 17 HMR.

Get the 22wmr. I had a savage 17 hmr and it was ok but I much prefer the 22wmr. It seems to kill with more authority.

My cz452 varmint shoots as well
As any 17 hmr I ever saw

i have 597 in both..my .22mag is the black synthetic and the 17hmr is the grey/blue laminate... the 17 is obviously more attractive and much flatter shooting so i will sell you it and keep the 22mag only because its a much better cartridge for anything bigger then ground squirrels !! (IMHO)

22 mag, just shot mine today as a matter of fact....

My plain jane Marlin 22 mag is a good shooter with CCI 40gr JHP. I shot this 15 shot group today at 50yds, leaning over the hood of my truck. Not too bad. It has taken several hogs with a well placed shot at the base of the ear.

My parents live in rural Indiana with a couple old barns on their property. I bought an hmr for the starlings that quickly wise up and stop coming within range of a 22lr. One day while shooting starlings, I noticed a crow about 150 yards away in the field behind my shooting location. Curiousity got the best of me, and I decided to see what a little 17 cal tnt would do. I was expecting a quick kill. The bullet destroyed the thick front edge of its wing near the base, and failed to penetrate enough to kill it. The impact rolled the crow, but it quickly got up and started hopping away. I had to chase it down and finish it off.

So while the 17 is about perfect for suspicious starlings, that experience with a crow leaves me doubting it for anything bigger than pigeons...

I had a similar experience with the HMR on a woodchuck. Shot the little bastard right in the front teeth from 160 yds with a 17 gr. V-Max. Bullet blew out the two front teeth, raked a furrow down the roof of it's mouth and was stuck in the back of it's throat when I got up to it. The chuck was gagging on the bullet in the back of it's throat but was still alive and required a finishing shot. I know from experience a 40 gr. .22 mag. bullet would have blown on out the back of it's head for an instant kill with the same hit at that range.

Our local outlaws will be talking about candlepower and the light they're using.

It's just a given that the gun will be a .22 WMR...

DF

Yep. .22 mag. will put venison on the table. Don't even need to head shoot. Put a 40 gr. JHP through their lungs and they won't be going far. BTDT many, many times.

You're not going to go into great details about how many million candle power you hunt with...??

DF

Nope, no need. I'll let your imagination decide whether it was daylight or dark, legal or not.

17HMR is a long range varmint shooter. 22mag isn't. It's not that difficult to hit ground squirrels at 200 years with a 17HMR. I would go 17HMR.

I'll grant ya'...200 years IS long range thinking....

AMEN!!! I've had several varmints run off after using 17HMR, but never had a Coyote run off from a 22mag",. I've owned several in each caliber, but I always go back to my cheap ass Marlin tube fed 22mag" and with the Rem.green tip ammo, it's as accurate as any 17HMR I've owned. Enough Said...

For ground squirrels and other small game ... 17 HMR