I traded for a .243 Pre-64 that looked pretty good until I peeked down the barrel with the Hawkeye. Very clean, but lots of pitting..

Oh well, sometimes pitted guns shoot. Well, not this one and I loaded a series of known .243 accuracy loads. I don't need a 2" .243...

So, it's off to JES in Oregon for boring to .358 Winchester. The muzzle OD is .565" which when you subtract .358", leaves only .1" or so barrel wall thickness. Jes said that would be fine, so I'm sure it will be.

His cost is $250 which includes return postage. Postage on my end with $750 ins was around $35 or so, ground UPS, leaving this PM to get there Monday. And he says he can get it done in a week.

Now, that's pretty amazing. I've never heard of a gun he's done not shooting pretty well.

So, I'm excited about a new round at half the cost of a new barrel in a light, handy rifle.

Reason for going .35 cal, I don't have one. I have a 6.5 Creed, so don't need a .260. Have a 7-08, a 308, .a 338-06 so don't need to duplicate any of those calibers. That leaves the .358 by default, and wanting to leave the M-70 set up as a SA Fwt. in the original stock.

I've been reading up on the .358 Win and it seems pretty versatile. It'll shoot .38 pistol bullets on up to 225 gr. rifle bullets. I know, 250's, but I'm not going there.

And I have nearly every powder mentioned for that round.

Will report. It's like Christmas in Aug for a Loony.

I'm sure you guys understand...

DF

The M70 Fwt and the .358 go together like peas and carrots!

I'm about to send him something too after chatting on the phone today. He was very amenable to questions.

Just curious: did you send the whole thing or just the barreled action? Shipping seems like it would be much cheaper doing the latter.

What twist rate are you going with? I had my .358 done with a 1 in 12" so it would shoot the heavier bullets well. I shot 3 Hornady 250 gr Spirepoints into one single hole that we only about .380" edge to edge. Now that I have to use non-lead bullets here is CA, it shoots both the 225 gr and 200 gr TTSX bullets very well. I used John Barsness's loads with TAC that closely approximate .35 Whelen factory loads.

Most loading data for the .358 is kept low due to some lever actions like the Win 88 and Savage 99 being made in that chambering. A strong bolt action can go hotter. I used mine in Africa on plains game including kudu and Wildebeest.

Would that be like Jenny and Forrest?

I never asked about twist, guess he'll go with std twist, whatever that is.

I'm not trying to go heavy as those bullets are pretty slow, probably mostly shoot 180's and 200's.

BTW, what is the std. .358 Win twist?

DF


Edited to add, found this link

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5220834/

I'll need to find out what twists he does. I guess it's a choice between 12 and 14. We'll see what he says.

Just the barreled action.

And, you're right. Much cheaper.

DF

I have a standard grade M/70 that I had rebored by Randall Redman 25-30yrs. ago, for years 225gr. bullets were my whitetail load. Having had rotator cuff surgery on both shoulders I have been shooting 180 & 200gr. bullets. I found a Ken Waters load using Hornady Inter-lok 200gr. RN bullets and IMR 3031 that will cloverleaf 3 shots @ 100yds. I have used this load on the last three whitetails, the one bullet that I recovered was perfectly mushroomed and retained 66% of its original weight. If I were to have a Featherweight rebored to .358 I would definately stick to 180 & 200gr. bullets, in addition I added a Pachmyer Deceleator pad to my rifle which made it much more comfortable to shoot from the bench while developing loads.

Thanks. If you happened to take a photo before you sealed up and are willing to share, I'm interested in how you packed it. The trigger hanging there makes me nervous. But I'm also assuming he doesn't want to deal with tons of reassembly.

It's in a brown truck by now.

I cut a .223 case to make a tube long enough to support the rear action screw and the trigger guard. The Pre-64 doesn't have one piece bottom metal, it's in pieces. The attached bottom metal protects the trigger.

I had a double box from McM that a stock came in. I padded the barreled action in bubble wrap, wraped the bolt separately and put it in a small box inside the larger box.

Then dropped the inner box into the outer box. It should do well if UPS gorillas don't run over it with a truck..

Insure it and let it go.

DF

TAC and 200 -225 gr bullets. I like the 225 Woodleighs

DF, a 10 or 12 twist works real well with the .358’s. My two Whelens both shoot the 250’s fine even with the 16 twist but I’d prefer more RPMs myself, especially with the all copper bullets. I don’t believe the extra RPMs will go to waste assisting opening the copper bullets.

I have two 35 cal barrels waiting to find a donor like yours. Ones a 9.5 and the other a 10. No harm in getting extra and I’ve not seen any detriment to it.

I’m pretty jealous of the little 358 Featherweight you’re having made up. I’m betting he won’t stamp it unless you ask him to. I’ve sent a couple P64’s to him and he’s left them unstamped since he says a nicer stamp job could be found than his usual method.

I am looking forward to seeing what you do with the old rifle. I love breathing a little life into those old rifles and gettin a somewhat rare chambering is pretty fun as well.

Oh, the old P64 35 Remingtons were 1-16 twist along with the 358’s. At least I’m pretty sure on that.

The Browning BLRs are 1-12 or 1-14 I believe. Don’t hold me to it.

That's pretty cool. I believe you'll enjoy working with that one.

My .358 was rebored from .308.
It's shot about anything I've fed it reasonably well but with the 200 gr TTSX (and TAC), it turned into an exceptional shooter. Me, not so much.

An old friend and mentor had an original model 70 featherweight in 358 and used it almost exclusively as his elk rifle for 40+ years. He liked to still hunt them in the heavy timber and was quite successful at it. The bullet he used most was the Speer 250 grain spitzer. He often used the old cliche, "you could eat the bullet hole." Having used 250 grain bullets in a 35 Whelen to take a few caribou, I'd have to say the old cliche is accurate.

Lots of good bullet choices so go forth and make meat.

BLR .358 is twisted 1-12".

Nice project. Though not a Fwt, my 358 Win pre-64. The one in the middle.

Nice guns.

For you, as always.

And critters to show...

I guess I'll go 12 twist with mine, which is probably what he would have done, had I not mentioned it.

DF

The Fwt, now with even less barrel steel (weight) is gonna be pretty light.

How bad do these things kick? Mine has a brown, solid Decelerator pad, which should help some.

I'm re-cutting the checkering, will have the stock ready to glass bed when JES gets his part done.. I removed the old bedding.

DF

What is the minimum bore size that he will do? I thought I heard nothing smaller than .338....?
Just curious.....

This is gonna be a bad sumbitch.. Post pics

Gunswizard, did your bullets hit the ground at 100 yards? Be Well, RZ.

WTF kind of azzinine question is that ?

I love my BLR takedown 358. For white tails I shoot either 180 or 200 grain bullets for hogs I move up to 225 and 250 grain round noses. Both give DRT performance. Have yet to recover any of them so don’t know about retained weight or mushroom diameter. It does what I am looking for which is short copious blood trails. Very little if any bloodshot meat. I am jealous of your pre64 featherweight. Guess I’ll just have to keep using my BLR 😁

Recoil is about on a par with 30-06 shooting 180 grain bullets. My BLR has a nice soft sorbothane pad that soaks it up pretty well. With 250 grain bullets it is stout but I would say no worse than your 338-06 with 250 grains.

Apparently you don’t know RZ very well.

It isn't too darned bad. Recoil is so subjective, if the Fwt stock fits you okay then I would think it would be really easy on you. I've been stuck on 225 Partitions with 748 for 2450 FPS in my BLR. Should make a slick little killer once you have it done.

Appears the RZ is another of the forum's d ouchenozzles.

From another thread for those unfamiliar:

I don't think recoil is bad at all and I'm not particularly fond of recoil.
A gentleman above mentioned 30.06 with 180's - that's probably pretty close, maybe a smidge less IMO.

I originally had a Brown Precision stock on mine so it was pretty light - I guess it depends on weight of a projectile you want to shoot and stock fitment.

Never an issue for me with 225's and the 200's are a bit more pleasant.

The MJ meme cracked me up. LMAO

LOL, you're going to have a little handful of dynamite DF, cool stick, if you load it to full potential, it's going to buck a little.

my Ruger stainless syn 358 with 200gr TTSX's at 2700 is a hell of a thumper.

edit: RL-10 will take you all the way.

FFL sent from JES per my request for UPS.

I had already printed a copy of his web site, showed the UPS guy (who BTW knows me), told him it was a barrel being sent for a re-bore. He seemed OK with that.

Gun was already on a brown truck before I got the FFL, so I didn't need it. But you never know with those guys, which one shows up at the counter.

I replied to the JES email, said I'd go with 12 twist.

He gets the package Monday. I could have it back in a couple of weeks. Seems the UPS trip takes almost as long as the JES turn around time. We'll see.

DF

Just so happen to have RL-10 and TAC, getting 200's from several makers to try. Have a box of 180 Speer FP's used for a friend's 35 Remington. Bet those would make an impact bumped up to .358 speed. The .358, reportedly, does interesting things with pistol bullets. I have the 170 Gold Dot and the 180 XTP for my 10mm. May try those just for grins.

Another loony project.

I'm sure you understand...

DF

I'd bet those Swift A-Frames for a pistol would be wicked hard on a buck out to a fairly decent distance. Not likely to tear the bullets up and man, they'd plow a swath.

Congratulations on your .358. Back in the '80's I had a push feed Featheweight rebarreled with a .358 Shaw barrel, a #3 contour, the slimiest contour offered for a .358. Well, it isn't a Featherweight any longer but, balances nicely and I've shot deer and my last bull elk with it. I used a Speer 250 Hot Cor running 2353 fps on the elk for total penetration and he was down and dead in about 25 yards. It looked like 5 gallons of blood on the ground from where he was shot to where he fell.
I run a lot of cast bullets through it from 150 grains to 250 grains and the Lyman 358156 over 10 grains of Unique can't be matched for fun! Like shooting a big .22. Full power loads are similar to a .30'06 ie: not bad at all.

That’s a cool rig Joe. Looks like it sees a bunch of use.

Interesting, beretzs, will have to check that out.

Thanks, Joe. Great info and what I was wanting to know.

The .358 Win has been a sleeper. Seems a lot of .358 shooters are "coming out of the closet" so to speak, once it's mentioned...

Just kidding about the closet, but made the point

DF

Not a 358 shooter but I do have a 3 rifle fondness for the 9 X 57. They're often compared and in the old rifles that's probably about right. New rifles and handloads the extra 6mm of the 57mm case tells a different story. Be that as it my, if I was ignorant of the 9 X 57 the 358 would be on my list of those to own. I've really become fond of the 35's....or 9mm's.

I see stuff on line, shooting pistol bullets in the .358 Win.

I can see cast bullets, .358 diameter.

But some have data for 9mm bullets and jacketed .38 bullets. Those are usually sized .356, .357, less than .358. I wonder how accurate an undersized bullet will be in a .358 bore.

Just wondering, not planning to get that crazy.

May try 158 gr. .358 cast revolver bullets, which reportedly shoot pretty well. Evidently lot of powder options with those.

DF

If it is soft enough for the pistol I will guess it will obturate in the rifle. It has worked for me with heavily lubed 148 gr wadcutters crimped pretty well in the 358 neck. The loads were intended for small game in emergencies and not fired over 50 yards. Probably about 20 yards and subsonic loads with green dot or red dot. Be Well, RZ.

Gunswizard you have said the 358 Winchester is a short range round. Do you want a quote from the other assinine comment you made???????????????????????????????

You kinda hard on poor ole G-Wiz...

You actually got me feeling sorry for him...

DF

Awwww shucks. It's the gunwriters' fault. RZ. Too late to close the gate. Guess I don't play well with others. I would have said the same to his face. Working at a prison for 20+ years hasn't helped. Be Well, RZ.

RZ please feel free to GFY.

Name calling sounds childish doesn't it? Be Well, RZ.

Nice looking rifle!

I stopped by UPS to ask about sending a barreled action. They panicked and said I needed to call the main distribution center and take any gun stuff there. (Technically they're right for a receiver but not other parts.) I also need to ship some ammo, so asked about that. The desk kid almost cried. That made me think I didn't want to deal with them if something went wrong. The lady at USPS, on the other hand, was very cool about it. $40 with $600 insurance. Arrives Monday. Hard to argue with that.

I have been shipping using my local Fed Ex. Prices are all about the same and they've done well on the back and forth. Never a question, they weigh it, Stamp it, and send it.

I'm looking at a Mexican Mauser that the late Eric Ching had built. I am not sure of the price yet but I think they got the I will take it. As soon as it is in my hands I will show it to you guys. Even G-wizz. God Bless you all, RZ.

Dirtfarmer have any problems with Laura? We lost phone and electricity and had many limbs in the yard but no real damage. The wind was worse than with Katrina.

Dirt farmer, great choice on the 358. I've put away a lot of moose meat with one. A jes rebore sealed the deal on the two biggest bulls I've shot to date. A 250 grainer at 2400 fps. That's a recipe for penetration on the big stuff, with good range to 300 yds

Is there really a better combination in a hunting rifle that can literally do it all for NA big game? I’m working on a full stock version currently (picked up the barreled action that had the barrel cut back to 19.5” on here quite some time ago and have finally had the time to do some work on it - I’ll post some pictures one of these days) that handles like a dream.

Your going to really like that one DF!!

PennDog

Thank you Pat. And it shoots great also.

10 gr. of Unique should be the ticket in .358, I shoot 15 gr. in my Whelen with cast bullets from 200-225gr. it's a very accurate load.

IIRC, the pre-64 Winchester in .358 was 1 in 12" as are my Browning BLR and Savage M99. Ruger went with 1 in 16" in the M77. I have all the above mentioned except the pre64 Winny and note that the Browning and Savage out shoot the two Ruger M77s by a country mile.
Paul B.

About the same. Lines down all over Alexandria, CLECO power plant took a hit. So, it could be a while getting power back. Crews from everywhere here working long hours.

I'm running a 5KW Honda, which takes care of refrig (2), freezers (2), and fans, not big A/C. House has lots of French doors with screens, so we can get some hot ventilation... Generator runs computers, TV's etc.

I visited my son and family in Lafayette. Not much damage, he never lost power. While there, I filled up every fuel can I had regardless of what it had been used for. Got 30 gal Ethanol free gas which will run the Honda for about a week or so.

DF

Yeah without genny would have lost freezer and refrigerator. We threw away all of Mom's thawed food this morning. Not complaining...we have been blessed.

Don't limit yourself twist wise. Go 1:12. It will still do well with lighter bullets. That's what I had my gun smith do with my 9.3x62. I shoot 270 grain Speers in it for deer but if I want to shoot something heavier I'm confident it will stabilize them. If you want to shoot 180s-200s just make ot a .300 WSM or a .338 something. Otherwise you're missing the point of a .358.

Agree with 12 twist and that's what I told JES in an email. He gets the barreled action tomorrow.

DF

Had JeS do one for me last year. Rem 700 243 sps is now a 18.5 “ barreled 358. Duracoated the entire action, barrel and bolt. Anything east of the Mississippi it’s my go to. Out west where things might go longish it’s not my first choice but I wouldn’t just stay home is that was all I had.

MM

PS. It’s a shooter as per norm for the work JES does.

Great, enjoy your beautiful rifle.

I did a 1-10 9.3 and it shoots like crazy. No harm in turning them big devils.

I don't plan to use 250's in the .358 Win, as IMO, there are better options for that round. I think 250's would be a better choice for 35 Whelen, etc., rounds with more powder capacity.

I think 12 twist will spin 225's and lighter fast enough.

DF

For sure DF. We are all probably in nearly the same boat that we have 20 rifles for 20 different things we have in our brain. 12 will work excellent though.

Yep 12" twist will be gtg. My BLR is 12 and M70 is 14. 250 grain does fine in my 14" twist.

Thinking about loads for the .358 Win. I've had great results with the CEB Raptor bullets, esp. the 135 gr. out of my .308. See this link and my report. https://cuttingedgebullets.com/308-135gr-er-extended-range-raptor

What about pushing a CEB 150 gr. Raptor out of the .358 Win at really high speeds, like 3,000 fps +.?

Speer shows their 158 gr. JHP pistol bullet at 2,888 fps over 48 gr. RL-7 I think the tougher, more streamlined 150 gr. Raptor would be a screaming machine at hyper velocity.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/338-150gr-er-extended-range-raptor

Then, there's the CEB 160 gr. .358, another choice. https://cuttingedgebullets.com/358-160gr-er-extended-range-raptor

CEB's are expensive, but how many does one actually shoot at game? Practice with cheaper stuff, save high priced bullets for critters.

More Loony stuff...

DF

I bet they’d be screamers!

The 178 Shock Hammer might be something as well for typical 358 sorta work.

May check those out.

Just no load data. I think one could start with 52 gr TAC, max 180 gr load, to try with 150 or 160 gr bullets, chrono. and adjust. I think 3 K fps and more should be obtainable without pressure signs.

Based on what I’ve seen CEB Raptors do, those loads should be dynamite on hogs and deer.

DF

I’d bet so. They’d have to be dynamite with all of that frontal area touching down.

I just read on line (makes it true, of course) that the JES 3 groove doesn't build pressure like conventional rifling, less friction. Reportedly it gives up to 100 fps extra. Now, that sounds pretty good. Too good? Hmmm...

Anyone with info to confirm or refute that claim?

It also seems that a couple of top powders are RL-10 and TAC. I have both, of course...

One poster said the 160 CEB Raptor can be driven 3K fps out of a 22" bbl. Claimed very broad and deep wounding, "almost too much for small deer and hogs"... His opinion, 200 SP and 225 NPT were the "sweet spots" for the .358 Win. Will check those out.

I'm excited about this round. It may be my most versatile round, handling cast and jacketed pistol bullets all the way up to serious heavies.

I have three scopes in the shop, all with Weaver rings. I'm thinking about having at least two, maybe all three sighted for different type loads, just swap them out instead of re-sighting for different type rounds. Two 4200 Bushnells, (3-9x40 and 2.5-10x50), a Leupold VX-3 1.5-5x20. Interesting possibilities. The 4200's tend to have shorter ER's, maybe not the best option for hard kicking rounds. Not sure how hard this rifle is gonna kick with heavy bullets. It will be relatively light weight, so we'll just have to see how it "shakes out".

DF

Not sure how well the 3 groove compares to the others but all of mine are 3 grooves and attain normal speeds with no fuss. They’ve been pretty easy barrels to get smoothed out as well DF. I’ve literally just shot them and once they hit around 50-75 rounds I’ll clean em down to steel and DBC them. After that life has been pretty easy.

I think you’d be hard pressed to find a Bullet that doesn’t work well in a 358 for deer. It just doesn’t have the juice to tear most of them apart like a Whelen or bigger magnum could. The lighter bullets seem pretty neat though. I wouldn’t mind trying a few thru my 358, just for grins.

I just sent an email to CEB, asking for info on terminal performance, their 150 and 160 Raptors in the .358 Win, quoting the source noted above regarding "almost too much for small deer and hogs". I reminded them about my review of their 135 gr. .308 ER Raptor with pictures.

I also asked if they had feedback from their customers regarding those two bullets in .358 Win and/or .35 Whelen.

We'll report any info they send.

DF

Good idea using multiple scopes. That's what I did for my BLR since I am using cast and jacketed so I don't have to resight when the mood strikes to change.

Loony issues:

Of the three scopes mentioned, I'm thinking one for high performance hunting loads with 200 and 225 SP's, 225 NPT's, then one for pistol bullet loads, maybe one for light, fast CEB 150 & 160 gr Raptors, 180 gr. Speers...

Matching scope per load category, the Leupold with longer ER for the kickers makes sense, but it won't pick up light like the 4200's, especially the 2.5-10x50, which would be hard to beat in dim light.

Hmmm... Maybe over thinking this, but what's new about that....

This is the Fire, after all...

DF

From CEB:

We have several customers using the 150gr and 160gr Raptors in their .35Cal rifles. We have a crew who took them moose hunting and fully expected them to fail. They performed well beyond what they could’ve ever imagined. Each member of the crew brought home a moose.
We have not received any of their personal load data but I attached here what we’ve sent to them in the past. All loads shown are MAX loads. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks!


Nikki Hampton Croasmun
Customer Service/Inside Sales Representative
75 Basin Run Road
Drifting, PA 16834
Office: (814)345-6690 ext 304
Cell: 814-592-6543
[email protected]

They sent QL data for the 150 and 160 Raptors... The max was around 2,800 for both, in fact the 160 edged the 150. RL-7 at or near the top of the list.

If the 160 runs as fast as the 150, why go there?

DF

That sounds like you're going to have some fun DF! I'd bet your rifle is probably on it's way back to you by now.

Can't wait to see it all set up.

Cartridge : .358 Win.
Bullet : .358, 150, CutEdge-ER E150 RAPTOR
Useable Case Capaci: 43.557 grain H2O = 2.828 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.615 inch = 66.42 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 51397 psi, or 354 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 106 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
68 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Ramshot X-Terminator 106.0 45.6 2.95 2820 93.0 49780 5693 0.983
Alliant Reloder- 7 105.4 40.9 2.65 2801 97.9 51398 5276 0.987 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 100.3 36.9 2.39 2777 99.7 51398 4908 0.977 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 92.5 34.7 2.25 2773 98.1 51398 5165 0.980 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 93.3 40.3 2.61 2766 95.0 51398 5208 0.985 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 106.0 44.0 2.85 2763 92.0 47146 5566 1.003
Accurate 2200 104.9 42.8 2.77 2762 91.0 51398 5311 0.985 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 98.8 36.3 2.35 2747 99.2 51398 4829 0.983 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 106.0 46.4 3.01 2744 90.1 46419 5594 1.013
Hodgdon H4198 105.5 39.8 2.58 2729 93.2 51398 5006 0.988 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 106.0 38.9 2.52 2719 99.8 45381 4854 1.025
Vihtavuori N110 95.1 32.4 2.10 2697 100.0 51398 4166 1.001 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 106.0 38.2 2.47 2692 96.8 44714 5035 1.028
Alliant Reloder-10x 106.0 40.2 2.60 2662 94.6 39762 5338 1.081
Accurate 2230 106.0 45.6 2.96 2628 86.1 41724 5196 1.069
Ramshot TAC 106.0 45.6 2.95 2608 83.8 40593 5264 1.078
Hodgdon H322 106.0 41.3 2.68 2582 88.5 38131 5183 1.099

Cartridge : .35 Whelen
Bullet : .358, 160, CutEdge-ER E160 CU RAPTOR
Useable Case Capaci: 56.706 grain H2O = 3.682 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.084 inch = 78.33 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 50763 psi, or 350 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 100 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
77 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon H335 98.5 56.2 3.64 2988 96.9 50763 6621 1.036 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator 96.0 53.7 3.48 2979 97.7 50763 6493 1.042 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x 100.0 49.3 3.20 2929 99.5 47997 6172 1.074
IMR 4198 99.9 46.8 3.03 2925 100.0 50763 5723 1.037 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 97.9 52.8 3.42 2916 95.0 50763 6249 1.051 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder- 7 94.5 47.8 3.10 2909 99.9 50763 5786 1.059 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 100.0 56.0 3.63 2906 93.0 46995 6518 1.074
Winchester 748 100.0 56.3 3.65 2891 93.0 44504 6611 1.090
Vihtavuori N120 98.1 46.8 3.03 2887 100.0 50763 5265 1.054 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 90.0 43.1 2.79 2872 100.0 50763 5288 1.048 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 95.5 46.9 3.04 2869 97.5 50763 5720 1.050 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 100.0 50.7 3.29 2867 96.5 44147 6275 1.095

Cartridge : .358 Win.
Bullet : .358, 160, CutEdge-ER E160 CU RAPTOR
Useable Case Capaci: 45.922 grain H2O = 2.982 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.614 inch = 66.40 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 55398 psi, or 381 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
92 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-7 104.2 42.7 2.77 2892 99.7 55398 4504 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 103.9 44.7 2.89 2874 95.1 55398 4705 1.096 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 105.0 48.5 3.14 2872 94.8 50223 4991 1.121 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 90.0 36.5 2.36 2870 99.8 55398 4457 1.092 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 102.3 40.3 2.61 2869 100.0 55398 4084 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 95.3 42.1 2.73 2869 98.0 55398 4541 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 99.4 38.5 2.49 2855 100.0 55398 4114 1.093 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 104.8 41.7 2.70 2834 96.7 55398 4397 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 98.1 38.0 2.46 2831 100.0 55398 4083 1.098 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 105.0 40.6 2.63 2801 100.0 49617 4041 1.140
IMR 4198 105.0 39.9 2.58 2789 99.2 48029 4339 1.145

You're in for a lot of ballistics laboratory testing fun DF, hope you put together a load and smack some deer this fall, pics to please.

Seems TAC and RL-10 are down the QL performance list for 150/160 Raptors. RL-7 is a bit faster and maybe a better choice for those light bullets.

I don't know why I'd want a 150, if the 160 shoots as fast, or maybe faster.

Interesting story from CEB about those moose hunters. I was scratching my head, why someone would go moose hunting with bullets they didn't expect to perform...Maybe CEB footed the bill to test their product. I know you or I wouldn't go on a moose hunt with bullets that we didn't have full confidence in.

At least they seemed to work well, which is no surprise to me from what I've observed with their products.

DF

Just reviewed .358 Win. Speer data, 2,888 fps with 158 gr. JHP pistol bullets over 48 gr. RL-7.

QL says 40.9 gr. RL-7 is near max with the 150 gr. CEB Raptor at 2,801 fps with just 51K psi.

Now, sometimes mono's are stiffer, have more friction/resistance down a bore. But 51K psi isn't a stretch for a .308 case in a Pre-64 action.

I'm thinking they may be leaving something on the table regarding how fast one could push a 150 Raptor out of a 22", 3 groove barrel. I was thinking closer to 3K fps. If 2,800 or such is max for the 150, don't think I need any, with 160's running around 2,892 fps @ 55K psi.

I still think Campfire velocities for those 150's could be way over 2,800. What does QL know...



DF

Follow up from CEB. I asked the tech about the difference between the .358 150 gr. and 160 gr. Raptors..

Answer:

The only real difference is the material. The 150gr is solid brass which is a little more brittle. The petals will snap off in almost a square shape. The 160gr is solid copper, which is softer, so the petals will almost peel back like a banana. Both will cause incredible damage and the copper is approved in areas that require lead free.

Curious why brass isn't Kosher in non-lead areas. Looked it up. Brass can have trace levels of Pb... Gotta really be nit picking to exclude brass from lead free zones. I don't see how there would hardly be enough to measure, must less cause damage. Bureaucrats, no doubt... Give'em an inch.....

DF

DF do you know what the lower velocity is for sure expansion on these bullets?

CEB says 1,500 fps for both the 150 and 160 Raptors.

The brass 150 frags, the copper 160 peels back and mushrooms.

The .308 135 ER Raptor fragged. Not too unlike a mono version of the Partition. Core blows on thru. Copper version more like a soft TTSX.

DF

I did a review of their 135 gr. .308 Raptor on their site with pictures. It was the kind that fragged. See what it did to a hog‘s chest. Check it out.

I think I like the brass version that frags.

DF

Why would someone just want 1 rifle in 358 Win ? You have to have 3 of them




Top - Model 7 SS which is my favorite carry
Middle - 700 Gloss in a McMillan
Bottom - Model 600 Gloss - Love the wood.

Ken

Those are nice, and you're right about that wood. If factory, someone won the Lottery...

What loads are you using?

DF

Loads are mostly the Factory Winchester 200gr SilverTips. These bullets really come apart. Hit a doe right in the front as she looked at me 80 yards away. It knocked her 10 feet backwards and she never got back up. For loads I use Speer 180gr FN, 220gr FN, Hornady 200gr RN, 200gr Rem corlok and Hornady 180gr single shot pistol #3505 and Hornady 200gr SP Interlock. None of the rifles are factory barreled. Favorite powder used is 748 and TAC. Shots are usually around 100 yards or less here NH. I also have a Custom shop Model 7 35 Remington so I never have to worry about running out of bullets. Haven't taken a deer with this rifle yet. 358 was a sleeper years ago but now more and more hunters are building them. It's one heck of a caliber as you can see by my 3 rifles.

Ken

Nice rifles Ken, and exceptional stick on the 600.
I would agree, owned a few myself, got the killin’ work done without nary a hitch

Was out in the shop, re-cutting the checkering on the pre-64 stock while JES is turning the barreled action into a .358 Win.

That beats getting eaten up by mosquitoes trying to clean up Laura debris in my yard.

My bud's hunting property on the Red River was devastated by the storm. Trees down everywhere, box stands smashed, food plots a mess, roads to food plots blocked by multiple downed trees. He as a track hoe working but not sure it'll be up and running for hunting season. No telling how long before he gets power. Sad state of affairs.

Dies, brass and bullets are ordered. May or may not get to deer hunt with it this year. We'll see.

Haven't ordered CEB yet. Will wait for now. Going with 180 Speer (already have for another bud's 35 Rem), 200 Horn SP and will try some pistol bullets. I have a selection of those for my .357's and 10mm's...

Three scope options.

DF

Recut pre-64 recut checkering.

Someone had recut the old checkering, but clogged it up with way too much finish, hadn't cut it deep enough..

Anyway, I didn't like it so I re-did it. One coat of Tru-Oil, all excess brushed out with a tooth brush.

I'll lightly sand the stock and after a couple of coats of Tru-Oil and it'll be done.

Not factory, but it wasn't factory when I got it.

DF

Looks good DF. Looking forward to seeing it all put together.

Thanks,...

Me, too...

DF

The recut checkering looks might fine - nice work.

A good Labor Day diversion. Probably took more time than the original M-70 checkering. But, those guys were professionals, could turn out the work. It still took time and as labor costs increased, gun makers sought other means to accomplish labor intensive tasks. But I work cheap.

DF

Nicely executed checkering there DF

That looks great DF, you'll need the extra grip that sharp new checkering provides if you load that 358 up to 2700 fps with 200gr TSX/TTSX, it'll be a little bucking bronc!

Looks good DF!

Probably not going full out gunner loads, but get your drift.

That round packs a punch even when coasting along.

I’m think pistols bullet loads will be interesting. Very versatile round. And it’s one I don’t have. Fixing to solve that problem.

Ranchers just want the land adjoining them, a Loony just wants the round he doesn’t yet have.

DF

Man, if that ain’t the truth!

I got my .358 Win dies in from Midway today. A previous order didn't get delivered. They marked those items as returned, gave me credit, sent another set. I thought that was good CS.

I got the Lee Pacesetter set with Factory Crimp die for cast bullets.

I had a hodge podge of .308 cases, military, foreign, R-P, Win, Fed, etc.. I lubed them with Hodgdon lube, ran them thru the .358 sizer using my Redding Big Boss II. Spit three, the rest did great. I guess I could have used Imperial Die Wax, as I had some.

I had some .243 brass handy from shooting the Pre-64 when it was a .243. This was good quality, relatively new W/W brass.

Why not... I lubed and ran .243 cases into the .358 sizer. Split only one. The rest came out perfect. Didn't take much more muscle than .308's, less than hard old military stuff.

Wonder how many .358 shooter have .243 headstamped brass...?

I have 100 new .358 W/W cases coming. So, some will have the correct headstamp. I'm planning to use the assorted stuff for cast bullets, the good stuff for serious loads.

DF

Stock is about ready for the barreled action. I weighed it. 29 oz. Not bad. I was actually surprised how light it is. That .243 Fwt, drilled out to .358 Win is gonna be pretty light, too. This gun is going to be pretty light. Heavy loads will make a statement, don't ya know...

A Hunters Edge usually runs around 26 oz, reportedly some of the later ones a few ounces more.

Brown Decelerator pad is taped. I'm pretty sure I spent more time recutting the checkering than the factory guys and gals spent back when it was originally done.

To me, the sharper, deeper checkering looks better than original and for sure the Tru-Oil finish is better than the original lacquer that flakes off after a few years. I'll polish some of that gloss to a soft sheen when it cures some more.

But, it's not original, so it isn't worth nearly as much, even though IMO, it's actually better.

I'll enjoy it. and that's the bottom line.

DF

Very nice DF - you did a great job! Can’t wait to see the finished product and I’m sure it’ll be a great shooter!

PennDog

It's going to a light weight rifle. Which is good until you shoot a full house gunner500 type load. One of those could loosen one's fillings....

But, don't have to push it to the max for it to be a killer.

So many options with pistol bullets, etc.

I ordered 180 TTSX today, not that you need premium bullets in a med bore rifle. But those in other calibers have been very accurate, may be in this one, too.

I have 180 Flat nose Speers (.35 Rem bullets), 200 Horn SP's and 225 SGK's on the way. Have an assortment ot pistol bullets from 140-158 gr. cowboy action to serious 10mm/.357 170 Gold Dot and 180 XTP's. Some claim those two are good on deer. Nathan Foster in NZ says the 170 GD holds together better than the 180 XTP at ..358 Win velocities in WT type game. Here's the link:

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.358+Winchester.html

Enough to keep an old Loony entertained for a while.

DF

Foster's quote:

For hunting very light bodied deer species, the .358 can be loaded with .357 Magnum bullets. Hornady’s 180 grain XTP bullet can be loaded to 2700fps; however, this bullet and the 158 grain XTP are better utilized as youth loads, down loaded to between 2200 and 2400fps, so as not to inhibit penetration.

The .357” Speer 158 grain Gold Dot hollow point and 170 grain Gold Dot flat point at .358 Winchester velocities are more reliable than the XTP on light game up to 60kg (132lb). The 170 grain Gold Dot used at close ranges performs well from muzzle velocities of 2400fps up to 2800fps.

DF - FWIW I have never found the .358 Winchester’s recoil objectionable and I have four of them and none are very heavy. I have pretty much stuck with 200 grain Hornady spire points, Barnes TSX, and Nosler 225 partitions. Have used the Hornady bullet the most and have had good success with in on whitetails. The use of pistol bullets is intriguing though!

This cartridge along with the .250-3000 are my “favorite” cartridges - although truth be told I’m not sure there is a cartridge that’s not my favorite😄

Keep us posted,
PennDog

That stock turned out excellent DF! Very nice work!

I don't expect you to have a whole lotta trouble with getting that 358 up and shooting. It's been pretty easy in a few cases. I use the 225 Partition/Sierra with W748 in a BLR and my little brother uses the 200 Accubond and RL10X. Both of them shoot pretty well, even out to lobbing bullets at the 400 yard steel using the Burris BP reticle.

The pistol bullets would be a blast though. I'd bet they make an impact.

Nicely done DF.

Thanks, guys.

I knew the stock was relatively light from handling it. I was impressed that it weighed only 29 oz, which IME is light for a walnut stock.

That puts it almost in Hunters Edge category for weight. Pretty close.

DF

Agree.

I doubt that 170 Gold Dot at 2,800 fps would bounce off much of anything....

Probably make a serious dent.

I didn't expect the XTP (report per Nathan Foster) to be less sturdy at higher speeds than the Gold Dot. I would have thought just the opposite. I like reading Foster's stuff. He seems to go into great depth and detail in his research... Good info.

DF

I'm still here, waiting to hear how it shoots. And I hope the bullets will break holes in the target paper at 100 yards. Be Well, RZ.

Looking good DF!

They gotta reach out to 100 yds first of all...

Then "breaking paper"....

That will take some punch, don't ya think...

DF

I just got the barreled action in from JES. He stamped .358 and 1-12 on the underside of the barrel, didn't mess with the factory .243 marking. Whoever fires a .243 round is gonna pull out a funny looking spent case. Doubt accuracy will be that good.... Now, those bullets may actually hit the ground before 100 yds....

It looks good. Will give it the Hawkeye look see when I get home. Next is glassing, touching up the stock after glassing, mounting scopes, then off to the range. I have some reloading to do. Formed cases are all primed and ready to go. I'm going to shoot the .243 formed cases, the R-P .308 formed cases, etc. as groups for consistency, although that may not matter.

Stuff ordered from Graf and Son not yet shipped. They say they have a 7-9 day delay in shipping. From them I ordered 100 W/W factory .358 cases, round nose 200 Sierra Pro Hunter, and 180 TTSX.

The formed brass looks really good and I'll proceed while Graf gets their "stuff" together... At least Midway gets their stuff out on time, but they don't have W/W brass and the Starline brass I order got lost in the mail. Now, they're out of Starline. Good thing Midway sent another set of dies so I could form .358 Win brass.

DF

Put it together, mounted a Bushnell 4200 Elite, Firefly triplex 2.5-10x50. This is an older scope I've had for a while. The Firefly reticle is thick on the edges, fine centrally for target shooting. At dim light, you hold a light on the reticle for a while, then it glows. It is good in dim light. It may be the one for now.

No glass bedding, free floating yet. It will happen.

Gun is 6 #'s, 8 oz. With this scope, 8 pounds even. Even with the heavier scope, it's still not a heavy gun. It would weigh seven pounds and a few ounces with a Leupold 2-7 or similar.

I checked the bore with the Hawkeye. It shows some fouling, so JES did fire it a few times... I'll clean it, polish with JB and treat with DBC. Should be good to go.

Trigger had already been tweaked to 3#'s, clean break with min over travel. I had to drift out the rear sight to clear the scope objective. No loss, as I don't use irons. I have Uncle Mike sling swivel studs yet to install. Saving the Pre-64 OEM sliing swivels.

DF

That turned out really nice but I agree with you that a Leupold 2-7 would look nicer, the Bushnell sort of overpowers the nice lines of the rifle.

Congrats on some nice work.

drover

That is nice DF. I like your checkering work, I have to get better on mine. I have pretty well messed up some beaters that I have attempted, just when I have a acquired some patience my eyes are shot!

DF that's turning out to be a sweet rifle, congrats; look forward to seeing how it shoots.

Thanks, enjoyed working on it.

You are correct about that scope, pretty it ain't, doesn't do much for the asthetics. And it's heavy.

I'll be looking for something more appropriate, but for now it'll have to do.

Those scopes generaly track pretty well and the 10X will be nice working up loads.

DF

Agreed, good scope for load work.

I've run 2-7's and 2.5-8 on my FWT's for decades, personally, like their fit and field performance never left me wanting

Until I can find something like that, may sight this one in, too. It's a bit more Kosher, looks better. Bushnell 4200 Elite 3-9x40 Duplex. All up, around 7#'s, 3 oz. This scope with rings is the same weight as a Leupold 1.5-5x20 with similar rings, around 11 oz. Gun, as posted earlier, is 6#'s, 8 oz. Right now, using scopes on hand.

Even though a good bit of metal was removed from the barrel, it doesn't feel whippy, or barrel light. It actually handles pretty well; balance is good.

DF

Now, that looks great !
Perfect combo of aesthetics, balance and performance all in one very cool package.

Nice!!

Fine looking rifle/scope combo there DF! Going to shoot it today!!??

PennDog

DF, that turned out really darned nice! I'd feel pretty darned good toting that in the woods this fall! That is going to be a sweetheart!

Looks great, can't wait to see how she shoots!

Gotta finish the bedding, load some ammo.

Unfortunately, life does sometimes get in the way, including Hurricane Laura clean up and family stuff.

BUT, it will happen and I will report.

Thanks guys for all the help and encouragement. It did turn out pretty well and will be an enjoyable rifle to hunt deer and hogs with.

DF

I bet. That’s a motivating rifle DF. Love the P64’s and that’s a pretty cool way to get one in a cool cartridge. That turned out excellent. I’ll be on the look out for a ratty bored P64 that needs some extra attention.

DF - I neglected to mention that I really like that you are using "old-school" Weaver ringsy on the rifle, they look just rig ht on it.

My only criticism - I mount the rings so that the knobs are on the right side of the rifle, I always had visions of operating the bolt in a hurry and catching a knuckle on the edge of the mount when the sharp edge is on the right side - just me though. I like the rifle better every time I look at the picture.

drover

I've gone thru that in my mind more than once. I like the looks of right sided knobs (I have Weavers with the old, large knobs), but sometimes I put them on the left side just to be out of the way. Can't really say they were ever actually in the way....

Being you mentioned it, I may just swap those around, as I haven't trued the reticle yet, or sighted it in.

DF

BTW, just looked it up, mfg date by serial number. It's '58 vintage.

DF

I liked your suggestion, turned the Weavers around and added vinatge large knobs.

A purist would know I'm cheating a bit, as these rings are the newer Sure Grip with screws on both sides, instead of original rings with screws only on one side. Well, the big attachment screws don't touch anything, so they'll work. Sure Grips come with the current smaller attachment screws.

I thought you'd like the vintage look. I do. Sure Grips are a lot easier to mount a scope, keeping the reticle straight. Those old ones would cant the reticle as they were tightened. You'd have to re-do it, overcorrect so the screws would finally pull the reticle straight. A real PITA. These are much easier to work with.

I think I'm gonna re-install the rear sight, as that big ole scope is just too ugly to use. It hurts my eyes, just looking at it....This gun is too pretty to wear that ugly a scope. This one looks more in character. Actually Japanese made 4200 series Bushnells are really good scopes. Glass is good and they seem to track well. I have several, never had trouble with any of them. So, I can't comment on Bushnell CS, never used it.

DF

I like that scope on the rifle DF! Fits real nice and it'll look slick with the rear sight stuffed back in there!

You did a bang up job on that rifle.

Like George Pappard, as the Col on the A Team, like to say, "I love it when a plan comes together"...

I have a little more to do, but it did seem to come together, even better than I had envisioned.

Thank you guys for all your help and support.

I will eventually get it to the range. I've yet to hear about a JES rebore not shooting pretty well. Will report.

DF

I didn't know you were looking for rings but look at Weaver Quad lock. I think you will need taller rings though. If you used mediums then get the high in Quadlock. They are shorter than most others. They are a tiny bit lighter if you care for the weight difference. I sure like what you did with the gun. Did you get the before and after weight? I did see the after. Thanks for keeping us along for the trip. I sure hope the bullets will penetrate the paper at 100 yeard though. Maybe you have heavy enough bullets they won't slow too much down past 50 yards. Be Well, RZ.

I have Quad Locks and they work well.

I'd lose some of the vintage effect and those rings are Chicom, these are made in the USA.

But, you're right, they're very good rings and are not expensive.

I didn't get before and after weights. Should have as that would have been interesting. I'd guess it lost 2-3 oz or so, not enough to feel any difference handling it.

DF


Edited to add, I used stuff lying around the shop, M-70 Weaver bases, several sets of Weaver rings to close from, the large attachment screws. I do have a set of low Quad Locks, but these rings look better in this setting. I used stuff I had on hand, scopes included.

DF -

That was the finishing touch, it looks really good and pretty much period correct now. An outstanding job!

I was unaware of the new style Weaver rings, they certainly cure the issue of the scope turning as the screws are tightened, although back in the day I got pretty good at guess-timating how much cant to put in before tightening the screws.

I am with you on the Bushnell 4200 scopes, they are a nice scope. I wouldn't mind finding a couple of them at a reasonable price but most folks who have them seem to realize just how good they are.

Congrats again on a great project - hope it shoots as good as it looks.

drover

I did have to grind those big attachment screws, tapered the edge on the back side to keep them from rubbing when tightened down. But what’s the price of nostalgia and getting that vintage look.

Cold blue and no one the wiser. Can’t tell.

DF

This featherweight gets sweeter with every new photo, re-install that rear sight, and you're there...
Great thread DF.

CD

I found the box for the big 2.5-10x50 Firefly. It goes to my son tomorrow, EBay fodder.

Don’t need it.

DF

Done deal. Just got in from the shop.

Thanks,

DF

Now you are cooking with gas with a fine combination!

Good stuff DF, I have two old pre-64 FWT's [243/270], both wear 2-7 Leupolds in Weavers, as you said, they just look right, function just fine too.

DF, found you some ammo





Since I am late to the 358 Winchester game, what was the concensus on this particular ammo back in the day?

From everything I've read, the old Silvertip has been a good bullet in the .358, as has the Rem Core Lokt.

Not sure I'd want to pay that for a vintage box. I'm a bullet shooter, not a bullet or ctg. collector

I had 100 W/W cases ordered from Graf and Sons along with some bullets. They were going to be 7-9 days getting the order filled, so I cancelled it.

I have over a hundred formed cases from .308 and .243 brass that I'm using. It's just too easy to form .358 brass from just about any .308 case or .308 family of cases.

I have a number of bullets to use, including 180 Speer flat point, 180 TTSX, 200 Horn SP, 200 Pro Hunter, 225 SGK, plus pistol bullets, like the 170 Gold Dot and 180 XTP.

So, I don't need to wait for Graf. I have all types of powder I would ever need for this round.

All I need now, is some time.

DF

Bushnell Elite 4200 is made by Light Optical Works (LOW) in Japan.

LOW makes a number of premium scopes like NF, tactical Bushnells and others. Google them.

Probably one of the top glass makers anywhere.

DF

Pretty cool company with a long long history

Found this funny from the stereotyping standpoint



Also found this earlier as well, another factory 358 load is good

Sorta English. But with an Oriental slant....

DF

I see what you did there...

They make scopes a lot better than they translate. Top notch company.



DF

now that's funny...

Son and I were checking out the big scope. He shined a light thru the ocular, lit up the Firefly. It didn’t take long and it glowed pretty bright, even after all these years.

He’s good at presentation on eBay, takes great pictures, full descriptions, etc. That sets an eBay seller apart from the competition. I don’t see any other Firefly scopes for sale there. So who knows. We’ll see what he gets.

DF

No lie. That auction will likely time out before anyone bids on it. I still have two cartridges left from a vintage box just like it I picked up from a gun store over ten years ago. Only shot paper with them though. Been doing the killing with handloaded 200 gr IL's. At the ranges I've been nailing them, I could probably mix these last two Silvertips in with the handloads and not see enough change in POI to make a difference though.

DF, remember the .358 takes to cast bullets like a duck to water and they are very deadly.

Ya got any pet combos, suggestions?

I’ve been thinking about that. Infinite variables. almost too many possibilities. Need somewhere to start.

DF

That is a sweet hunting rifle. Having a FWT in 358 is pretty unique.

Yep.

An original one is pricey.

DF


Edited to add, JES has converted a bunch. I gather they shoot about as well as an original. Will find out.

I feel for you guys living back east. Here you can find a damn nice rifle for a great deal sometimes. Just have to be patient and the right one will surface. You can always have your buddy in Lyle keep an eye out for you too. Like the one I snagged at that gunshop for $475.00...

He does a bit of looking here and there. He just found an 06 that was in decent condition. Would’ve been a heckuva donor rifle for the .358 barrel I’ve got laying in wait.

As a matter of fact I have. My 12" twist BLR prefers 40.5 grs. of H-4895 with the RCBS 35-200 FN and also a 225 gr. mold I had Mountain Molds make for me. My model 70 likes the same bullets pushed with 40.5 grs. IMR-4895. My M70 loves 25 grains of SR-4759 and 23 grains of 2400 is not too shabby. Don't forget the 158 grain revolver bullet with 10 to 11 grains of Unique. Just make sure you have at least 50 of those when you go to the range, yes they are much fun! Looks like my recently acquired BLR T/D takes either 24 grains of SR-4756 or 22 grains of 2400 with the RCBS bullet. Have fun!

Thanks, Joe.

I printed your post for future reference.

Just glassed the "new" .358 Win. Now, the barrel is properly positioned down in the barrel channel and centered. Not the first less than stellar glass job I've re-done.

I've reloaded since the '60's. The .358 Win with all it's options presents new territory for me.

I have a Simmons Pro Hunter scope, made in the Philippines, lying around the shop. Glass is good. I may mount it to use for pistol bullets, etc., keep the Elite 4200 sighted for serious hunting loads, just swap them out as needed. Also have an older gloss finish Leupold 1.5-5x20 that may have some use in this scenario. I have enough low Weavers to go around. Haven't bought anything yet.

DF

Joe, studying your loads info. I see you use H-4895 in one load, IMR-4895 in another. How much difference do you see?

How clean does 2400 burn in these loads? Some of my previous revolver loads with 2400 left granules of unburned powder.

I have some 4759, understand it's been discontinued. I may try it, but my luck it would be the best load with no replacement available.

I would think one would have to be very careful with Unique, not to double charge. I think I'll drop one charge, then seat the bullet, not do a gang at a time.

I have a bunch of 2400 and Unique, ended up with a stash after helping with the estate of a shooting friend. This should be a fun way to use them.

Thanks,

DF

There is ongoing discussion about selling on the Classifieds. I made mention of good presentation, photos, etc. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...on-the-campfire-classifieds#Post15243370

As an example. The Firefly 4200 featured earlier on this thread was given to my son to sell on eBay. I think he did a good job with presentation and photos. I'm including a link on how he prepped this product to sell on line. https://www.ebay.com/itm/174445817484

Now, I think he started out asking more than I'd pay for that scope, but who knows. Easier to come down than go up. That's how you feel out the market.
There are no similar Firefly 4200's on eBay at this time, we checked. So, we'll see. "Or best offer" can be a handy exit strategy for an overly high price.

DF

Well, I got the stock glassed and freefloated...

I have a Siimmons 4-12x40 Pro Hunter in the shop. Glass is perfect, Philippine, not Chicom. This is the ideal use for those Chicom Quad Lock Wearvers. A $50 scope mounted in $10 rings, well actually $10.99, my price at Brownells...

These rings are medium, not low. Weaver calls them med, (.164" clearance, Sure Grip and original Weavers). The medium Quad Lock is .160".. True low Weavers (available only in the origials) are .090".

The bolt handle will drag a bit on the Pro Hunter, not so much on the 4200. I'm not worried about the scope and the rifle bolt is already marked. So, let the jagged end drag....

I cleaned fouling where JES had obvioiusly fired it a few time. The bore really looks good, brushes and patches pass really smoothly and evenly... Thru the Hawkeye, it's well done. Maybe not as slick as a Brux or a Krieger, but pretty close, way better than the typical factory barrel. I can see why they shoot well.

Well, it's drizzling and windy today, although not blowing that hard. Outer bands from Beta as we clean up from Laura. So, no shooting.. But, it's good shop time. They say Beta will turn NE in TX and head for us, be here Wed. The weekend should be OK. May get to shoot if not too wet.

DF

IMR-4895 is slower and gave 1971 fps, while H-4895 produced 2060 fps. I had developed the load back in 1979 for a Savage 99 using Hodgdon but, I ran out and had some IMR which I utilized. My 23 grain load of 2400 is fairly clean burning but, not as clean as SR-4759 or Unique. The 4895 loads will leave a few powder zombies in the barrel but, accuracy isn't impaired. Yes do be careful when using Unique or any fast burning powder where a double charge could occur. You will have to work out what works best for you. When I'm loading 25-50 at a time, I place each case in a primer up attitude so I know any case with mouth up is powdered and then I look into them with a strong light. Be safe and have fun!

Thanks, Joe.

Good info.

I am a longstanding, careful reloader with years of experience.

But, I do admit mess ups, posted this one as a testimony of how things can get messed up, how crazy things can happen even to the most experienced of us..

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/9781434/1

Somehow it lands on page two. You'll have to scroll back to where it starts.

DF

Yes, no one is mistake proof nor can we double check everything enough!

Nice job, especially the way you touched up the checkering. Are you planning to "perforate some porkers," as GW put it?

Yep, that's the plan. WT's, too.

For long range, I have the 26 Nosler, now loaded with the new 156 EOL Berger over Vv n-570. The .358 Win should be about perfect for food plots, tree stands, etc. out to 200 yds. or so.

If it'll ever quit storming and raining, may even get to shoot it. Poured 3" out of the rain gauge this AM, still raining. Beta following Laura. Not as bad, but pretty wet.

I've loaded a bunch of .358 Win options, including pistol bullets. I DBC's the barrel after some TLC with JB's bore paste. I have three different scopes already mounted, so I can swap them out depending on type of load, won't have to be re-sighting all the time. Fast pistol bullets should be deadly on 'yotes and such. The .358 is a neat round, a new experience for me, keeping an old Loony, young....

DF

Yeah, I've been seeing your weather up there. I went to college in Pensacola and after all these years still recognized a few of the places I saw on the news. Lord, what a soggy mess. But hey, you're from Louisiana: wet ain't anything new to you. Enjoy that rifle; I hope you get to blood it soon.

Yeah, we used to wet.

But, this is epic.

Like everything, it too shall pass...

DF

DF thanks for the interesting and informative thread.

Would you believe, that big ole ugly Firefly scope sold for $465 plus $9.99 shipping.... That's way more than I would have paid.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174445817484 The eBay seller (my son) did an excellent job with presentation and marketing. It sold quickly to a "best offer" buyer. By overpricing he was able to get a feel for the market. Easier to come down.

An exercise in marketing, presentation and eBay selling. But, he's a full time pro.

DF

Project slowly moving forward.

I got it back together after a light polish of the Tru-Oil gloss. I mounted a Vari X III 1.5-5x20, which should be a fun scope for plinking with pistol bullets at 2,700-2,800 fps...

I have the Bushnell mounted, using a Leupold scope cover so they won't know it's a Bushnell until it's too late...

Loaded a variety of loads, still working on that.

DF

Polished the feed ramp, just 'cause. Can't hurt, feeding a hodge podge of bullet types.

And, free floating. With a good, stiff stock, don't need a big gap.

I found some more .243 W/W fired cases in the shop. They're now .358 Win. I split three, the rest went pretty easy with some muscle power and a Big Boss II press.

I tried Imperial Die Wax, but couldn't tell any difference from using Horn lube. Both worked about the same.

DF

DF, how's the clearance on the ocular? I am considering something like this

That is an amazing looking rifle, makes we want to swap out the McMillan on my Pre-64 for a piece of good walnut

It looks great. Nice job on the checkering.

Pretty close but mostly clear. I guess some touching is possible. Bolt handle already has a mark, so not concerned enough to go with high rings. It’ll be OK.

DF

DF, you're mentioning Imperial Sizing Wax made me a bit nervous. Up until about 3 weeks ago I had never stuck a case in a die but, it finally happened and with my .358. You guessed it, I was using ISW. For decades it has been touted as "the" sizing lube, so I wanted to try some. Now after getting the case out I'm back to what I've used since the '80's and will never again get a case stuck. So beware. Sorry for the hijack. Oh, the 1.5x5 looks great on your M70 and will probably meet all needs.

I used ISW forming .240 Wby cases from 25-06 brass using the CH4D case forming die.

Worked pretty well. But, with this application, didn’t show me much. Hornady Lube worked just as well.

I was amazed that I could form .358 Win brass from .243 cases. I could see .308, but surprised how well .243 worked. Will split a few, (.308, too), but most make the transition. I don’t have any .358 brass with .358 head stamps. It’s all .308 and .243, but it works.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12431835/1 Link to a thread showing pictures of the CH4D die set up, converting .240 Wby from 25-06 brass, need to scroll own a bit to see it.

DF

Agree, except at low light. The 40mm 4200 objective will out perform the 20mm objective.

And, Leupolds do tend to have better ER's than 4200's, except probably not enough to be a concern with the .358 Win. Unless, of course, I go with heavy gunner500 class loads...

But, you don't need to flog a .358 Win for it to be an effective killer. It sorta does that naturally from all I've read. Hope to find out for myself.

DF

Did some shooting this morning. Sighted in the 4200 Bushnell, the Leupold went bonkers, wouldn't track, so it goes back. It is an old scope with friction, not click adjustments.

I also sighted the Simmons Pro Hunter 4-12x40 scope at 50 yds, shooting 158 gr. cast pistol bullets over 10 gr. Unique and 20 gr. 2400. At least that scope tracked, but the results weren't impressive. I think those light loads will be fun if and when I get them developed. 2400 load made a bit more noise.

Evidnelty all this conglomeration of bullets caused some serous fouling, even after DBC treatment. So, it's cleaning up nicely with Patch Out and patches, no brushes after DBC.

It was shooting 2" or so with the Sierra RN, slightly better with the 180 TTSX over 50 gr. TAC, but we're defiinitely not there yet. I used the Speer 180 FN to sight in over 42 gr. RL-7. Will shoot groups later.

I have 225 gr. SGK and 200 gr. FXT Horn to be delivered Tue. Looking for some 225 NPT's to try.

So, hope to have better info later. I don't think mixing all those type bullets on a barrel break in was too smart. DBC can do just so much.

In my case, more zeal than smarts...



DF

DF; thanks so much for the updates. This is a very interesting project.

Thanks, it has been fun.

I got the bore clean with a few Patch Out soaks, even used their Accelerator..

On closer examination with the Hawkeye, I can see where JES' groove cutter chattered a bit, not much, just faint. I also see a couple of places where there was a small void in the steel, which no one can predict. DBC should help with fouling. Seems when I use it, clean up gets easier after each range session.

I'm waiting on Hornady FTX 200 gr. bullets to show up. I'm thinking they may work well, B.C. a bit higher than others, although this is not a LR outfit, so that's not so important. The FTX is reportedly very accurate, the most accurate bullet in some reports..

I have 7 powders to try, with data to push those bullets at around 2,500 fps, gonna try with Win Mag primers, have been using BR-2's. Some of the powders, such as TAC, seem to do well with mag primers, so to cut down variables will use them with all loads for comparison.

Reportedly, FTX's optimal window of performance is 1,800-2,600 fps. They're basically 35 Rem bullets with the soft tip for tube mags. By keeping them at high .35 Rem speed, but at mod .358 speed, it may be a good load. We'll see.

Shooting up to 200 yds, an extra 100-200 fps won't make that much difference and hopefully optimal terminal performance can be maintained for that bullet design. Again, matching design velocity window to speed.

DF

Just checked Load Data for max .35 Remington loads with the 200 FTX. Seems I was off a bit. Best speed I saw was 2,050, quite a ways from 2,500...

But, I'm sure they didn't publish any "Fire loads"....

2,500 may not be that far off...

But, if the design window for that bullet is as advertised, 1,800 to 2,600, I'll be in that zone at 2,500 fps, which may or may not be a tad fast with excessive expansion

We'll see. Usually I check before I post, but assumed I wasn't far off. Quess I was wrong.

I've heard it said about the ladies, they're not always right, but they're NEVER wrong...

Not going there...

DF

Eight loads all weighed out, approximating 2,500 fps with the 200 gr FTX, scheduled to arrive tomorrow or Wed.

Here are the loads and how they fill the cases. #1 starts at the right.

Some will lightly compress, appears 748, TAC, H-322 and Benchmark, the least.

I'm not pushing the envelope on velocity, just trying to stay in the 2,500 fps range, or pretty close.

All with Win Mag primers as noted earlier. Many of the cases were formed from .243 Win brass, others from various .308's. .243 origin cases don't seem to have thinner necks as one would suppose.

You can see where I scratched out.H-322, didn't have enough and 2230, some say it's the same as X-terminator, which could be a good one. Decisions decisions....

DF

You should find something useful among those. I'm headed for the range later this morning to shoot mine with some RCBS 35-200 FN and my Mountain Molds 225 gr. FN. Loving this cool weather!

Sounds like you are about to get her figured out. The bang flops will commence. Good luck with the 358. I have a few of them. If I don't kill a deer fast it was shooter error not the caliber failure. Be Well, RZ.

Yeah on the weather. I gladly put on my jacket this morning..

Look forward to your results.

DF

While I'm at it, may try 48 gr. AA-2230. If it works, will replace it with X-Terminator.

Reportedly, AA-2230 is discontinued, is very similar to X-Terminator which, reportedly, has some improvements, but the same burn rate.

Some .358 Win shooters swear by X-Terminator. We'll see how it goes...

DF

Still cleaning up after Laura, now waiting for Delta.

So, not much range time. It will eventually happen, just don't know when.

DF

I just loaded a few 200 FTX with 48 gr H-322 just to see how it works. Almost out, can is getting low, but enough left to see if I need to get some more. Or not.

So, now I have 10 potential combos with 200 FTX’s to see if there is a winner, or two. Not running the chrono yet. Loaded all to approximate 2,500 fps, I’m looking for groups, will fine tune the best ones later. Not sure that’s the best way to work up loads. Seemed like a good idea at the time; I’ll have more info than I now have.

DF

I've found the .358 is very easy to load for and does very well with 4895, 4064, 4320, BLc 2, and 335. I've shot some Rx 7 but, haven't really tested it because of the loads already worked up. Hope everything goes good for you during the storm!

i shoot the hornady factory loads with the 200 ftx in my ruger 358 with a 19" barrel and it is a one holer. only shot one deer with it so far but that deer was DRT. hit it angling into the left front shoulder and passed all the way through and came out the right side ribs.

Thanks for that info. How fast is the factory 200FTX load in the .358 Win?

DF

Hornady 200gr Factory
2475 fps

Winchester 200gr Factory
2490 fps

Thanks.

So, me going for around 2,500 fps is in the ball park.

DF

What was the runout on the cartridges assembled from the expanded 243 brass?

The cases were very uniform, necks not thinner (at least looking at them, didn't mic them). They're as concentric as others.

I was surprised how easily they expanded from .243 to .358, really no harder than expanding a .308 to .358.

And, all this was with fired brass, no new stuff. Forming .240 Wby from 25-06 takes a good bit of muscle power. With those, virgin brass is MUCH easier to use than fired stuff.

With .358 forming, fired brass works very well, but I didn't try virgin brass as a comparison.

I split 3 .243 cases forming 40 or so. Only split one .308 out of nearly 50.

I have no .358 ammo with correct headstamp. But quoting a renowned sage from the North, "it's the boolit, not the headstamp...."

DF

I thought that much expansion may lead to some runout in the loaded rounds.

You 358 guys are giving me the new cartridge itch which I really don't need these days. I should have bought one at a gun show a number of years ago. A vendor who had a lot of Ruger stuff had one at a very fair price. I don't remember if it was a MkII or a Hawkeye.

Runout was checked on my Sinclair gauge and all expanded cases are very concentric. And, I'm using Lee dies. I went with them because I wasnted a Lee Factory Crimp die for cast bullets and that was the least expensive way to go. I got the 3 die set, not the 4 die set with Collet Neck sizer.

One more issue to solve.

The set up as shown with the 4200 3-9x40 in Weaver Med rings, the bolt handle does touch the ocular a bit and any is too much.

I subsequently mounted it with high Weavers (.332), and they work, just wish the scope was a tad lower.

I would like QD type rings that are .250" or so high. Weaver Med .164" is too low.

Warne Maxima QD low is .250, but they are $57 wholesale at Brownells. Leupold QRW2 low is .250. It looks like they'll fit Weaver bases, but they offer their own QRW bases.

I want QD so I can use other scopes for pistol bullets, etc, without a new sight in. I plan to keep the Bushnell 4200 dedicated to my hunting loads.

Any suggestions?

DF

How about the Warne Maxima Horizontal? The low is .250". Midway sells them for $48.

Now, that's not a bad idea. I don't really need QD, just return to zero, which those do.

May get a set.

Thanks,

DF

Just ordered a set of Warnes from Midway. $47, less than Brownell's wholesale and free shipping. I've noticed that Brownell's prices aren't competitive in many cases.

I added a small set of punches to exceed the $48 minimum needed to save $7 shipping. So, the punches ended up pretty cheap.

I looked at Leupold PRW rings, but on comparing those two, the Warnes seem to be better thought of by BG hunters using the QD versions.

I can remove the scope with a Torx wrench, replace it with no loss of zero.

I have an old Bushnell Banner 4X with fine crosshair that fits the rifle well with Med Weavers. The ocular is smaller, doesn't touch the bolt handle. It's not much of a scope, but does track and is clear enough to play around with pistol bullets. I also have a 4-12x40 Simmons Pro Hunter that will work. The Banner actually mounts better, the Pro Hunter has a short ER.and short 1" tube, doesn't mount as well, can't get it pulled back far enough.

I had a Vari X III 1.5-5x20 Duplex I mounted, but couldn't sight it in. POI went all over the place with adjustments, so it goes back. Not the first one. They'll probably replace it with a VX-3i 1.5-5x20, which I'll give to my son to sell on eBay, still sealed in the factory box. It's a friction adjustment version, so it's pretty old but wasn't used that much, never abused. Gloss finish is perfect without marks. So, doubt they'll fix it. If they do, I'll give it another try.

DF

Here's what they look like with 200 FTX seated. I left the cannelure high, didn't need to seat that deep. The Pre-64 Box Mag is pretty generous, the throat not a problem.

Back row are 158 gr RN revolver bullets over Unique and 2400. Will use another scope for those.

DF

I saw where MidwayUSA had a special on the 200 FTX at a good price, so I bought a box. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1022919956?pid=520778

Except, they looked a bit different so I weighed one. They are 180 gr., not 200 gr. So, I thought they may be the 180 gr FTX for the 350 Legend. But those are .355", these measure the same as the 200 gr. FTX, which is reported to be .358", (actually closer to .357"+). An odd bullet for sure, maybe that's why they're sold in a blue Midway box. Usually Midway won't ID blue box bullets, but did these, except with the wrong info.

Notice the Midway label and compare the two bullets. I've shot 180 gr. Speer Flat Nose .35 Rem bullets and these 180 FTX (whatever they are) may shoot pretty well. I see they're sold out, so this is probably a one time thing. Just another curiosity.

DF

I also seat short of the cannelure for my BLR with Hornady 200 ILs both RN and SP over IMR-3031.

What's your best 200 gr. load with 3031?

DF

49 gr was max in my rifle, at which recoil noticeably stiffened, but not intolerable at the bench (using CCI#200 primers). I settled on 47.5 gr but could run 48.5 and not be pushing it with similar accuracy. Your mileage may vary. I referenced Lee Modern Reloading Manual, 2nd Ed for data.

I informed Midway about the 200 gr. FTX bullets being 180 gr. They offered a return and refund. I told them because they're not .355", but closer to .358", I'd use them. My message was more FYI than anything else. Sorry was their only response...

DF

The Midway label explains the FTX logo. Flex Tip eXpanding. I got the FT part, wasn't sure where they came up with the X...

For sure, this is trivia that would only interest a Loony...

I can now rest better at night, this issue having been settled.

DF

Took your advice, worked perfectly. Can remove without losing zero. No bolt handle drag, low enough for good cheek weld.

Just not as retro looking as the Weavers with older style, big attachment screws with knurled edged for hand tightening.

These require a Torx wrench, which is not a big deal. Don't need QD in this application.

DF

Good deal!

Well, I shot this afternoon. I didn't get thru all the ammo I brought, was also shooting other guns.

These days, I tend to run out of gas before I run out of ammo. A few decades ago, it was always the other way around.

Pistol bullets shot very well, the 170 Gold Dot and the 180 XTP over RL-7 were both sub MOA. I used 44 gr. with the 170, 42 gr. with the 180. Nathan Foster in NZ likes the 170 GD more than the 180 XTP, says it holds up better at .358 velocities, suggest slowing the XTP down, full speed for the GD.

Those 180 gr. Midway FTX's that I mentioned earlier shot .9" over 42 gr. RL-7

The ten 200 gr. FTX loads I pictured, well I got thru half of them. 47 gr. 8208 and 48 gr. 748 were both MOA.

Speer 180 flat point 180's shot .85" with 42 gr. RL-7.

Midway had some more of those blue box 200 FTX's, so I bought another box. Bet they're 180's, but they do shoot well.

I've yet to try 225's and other loads.

I was worried about fouling, but a look thru the Hawkeye, not so bad. Gun is soaking with Patch Out and should clean up even easier than before. DBC works that way.

I don't remember a round with this many options and this much fun.

DF

Absolutely!

Glad you guys have discovered the fun. Be Well, RZ.

Yeah, pretty cool round.

Shooting the remaining test loads, I did not get decent 200 gr FTX groups with TAC, RL-10 or H335. Did pretty well with Benchmark, H-322 and 2230 (similar to X-Terminator). Seems TAC does very well with heavier bullets shot faster. May use it with 225 Sierras, 200 NAB's. Can't find 225 NPT's. I'm not a fan of 250's in the .358 Win.

So the good ones with the 200 FTX are 8208, 748, Benchmark, H-322 and 2230. Fortunately I have enough of those (except H-322) to last for a while. With some powder now hard to find, I can make do with those for now.

The 180 FTX (uncatalogued Midway blue box bullet) shoots very well, actually it's a bit more accurate than the 200 FTX. It and the Speer 180 flat nose should kill about anything I'm gonna be shooting. I don't want to push either one to the max the gun will do, trying to stay within their design velocity windows, trying to not exceed 2,500 fps.

The heavy .357 pistol bullets (170 Gold Dot and 180 XTP), while not that streamlined and with B.C.'s not as good as rifle bullets, did shoot very well, should kill stuff at reasonable ranges just as dead.

For plinking, looks like the 150 Sierra and 158 Horn revolver bullets over 20 gr. 2400 will do just fine. I was getting inch groups at 50 yds. Cast pistol bullets were shooting patterns not groups. Cast may need to go slower with Unique, Red Dot, etc. With those, I am using a cheap Bushnell Banner 4X scope with fine cross hairs. I wouldn't give you $30 for it, but it works well for that use and tracks well. Glass isn't bad for a $30 scope. I can swap out scopes and not have to change scope settings.

DF

Were your cast bullets plain base or gas checked? Plain base need to go slower but, 16 grains of 2400/ Lyman 357156 GC shoots great in mine. Also a lot of jacket fowling will play havoc with cast accuracy.

Plain base.

The DBC treatment keeps fouling down, not that bad.

I tried some CAS cast bullets, a 147 Mounton for the .38 Spec. 1873 and pistol 158 SWC, none with gas checks.

I may just stick with jacketed, those jacketed pistol bullets shooting so well.

DF

Got in my second box of Midway "200" gr. FTX's, both are actually in black boxes, not blue.

These are 180 gr. like the others, not 200 gr. as advertised.

This gun shoots 180's very well.. But, I can't really push these 180 gr. FTX bullets to what the gun can do with 180's, like 2,700-2,800 fps, unless I want a varmint type load.

I'm assuming the terminal performance velocity window for these FTX 180's is similar to that for the 200 FTX, which is reportedly 2,600 fps tops. These could actually be a bit more fragile than the 200's based on smaller size, but I'm just guessing. At any rate, I think 2,500 fps is about tops for them and the 200's, really a mild shooting load. '06 kicks a good bit more.

DF

Saving this thread. Great info.

I just bought an old Sako / Westernfield L57 .243 win , that has 22" barrel with .568 OD at the muzzle. It's going to Jes for a .358 win rebore same as yours and then ceracoated.

That should be a good one.

Of course, expect photos when you get it done.

UPS or USPS both ways will take more time than JES.

Amazing turnaround, good price and great work...

DF

Question for you guys.

I have a can of LT-32 not being used. I want to use it in the .358 Win. My target load, 180's at around 2,500 fps.

I researched .308 data, as there isn't much LT-32 data available. And, I know it's a niche type, specialty powder. But, I have a can and wanna use it.

I found .308 load data showing loads falling between Rl-7 and H-322, both good .358 Win powders with lighter bullets. By aiming for 2,500 with 180's, I'm well below max, generally around starting.

41 gr. RL-7 and 46 gr. H-322 will push 180's at 2,450 or so in the .358 Win. .308 data for various weight bullets puts LT-32 loads about half way between RL-7 and H-322 for approximately the same velocities.

I'm gonna split the difference, try 43.5 gr LT-32 with these FTX 180's and Speer FP 180's in the .358 Win.,which should run a bit short of 2,500 fps. LT-32 burn rate is between RL-7 and H-322, so that seems to make sense.

Because it's in the starter range, not pushing the envelope, I think it'll work out OK. It could be a while, thanks to all these hurricanes, before I get to check it out and report.

What ya think?

DF

Yep He's done a couple for me already. 35 whelen and 375 winchester. I've been very happy with the guns and the turnaround.

I have a 9x57 mauser that I load for and have a nice mild load with a 200gr Remington RNCL. A couple hundred fps faster than a 35 rem and it has been effective on deer. I also have about 10 pounds of the old 150gr remington pointed corelocks. I used to load them in a .350 mag and they were bombs on armadillos and such. For most of my hunting I can use very mild .358 loads, but I can always add the juice if it's called for.

It's amazing how many JES seems to turn out. I guess he's got it down where he can crank out quality work quickly and at a reasonable price.

You hear of JES rebores all the time. And, from all reports, they evidently shoot pretty well.

DF

Just loaded 43.5 gr. LT-32, powder came up to the neck, about to the bottom of the 180 gr. FTX, seated to the cannelure.

So, no crunching powder but no air space, which should be about optimal. Hope they shoot optimal groups. Will see what they’ll do when it dries up a bit.

I have 200 of these bullets minus what I’ve shot. There may not be any more as they’re not a catalogued item. I’ll make the most of what I have.

DF

I've mounted this VX-3i 3.5-10x40 CDS in the Warne Maxima Horizoltal Low rings. Will get another set for the 4200.

Thanks, Mathman. Good suggestion. It works.

I'm going to have the Bushnell 4200 3-9x40 set up for FTX 200's, maybe the 175 FTX's that Midway sold, the VX-3i for 225 gr. NPT's, NAB's and SGK's. The CDS will give me good 300 yd effectiveness. I have another scope, a Simmons Pro Hunter, 4-12x40, that I'll use for 158 JHP pistol bullets. It actually has pretty good glass for a cheap scope.

Easier to swap scopes than re sight.

DF

Well now, wouldn't ya know. That VX-3 went tits up.

Yeah, adjustments had NO effect on POI or POA. I even tried it on another rifle, as they recommend, same deal.

SO, it goes back to Leupold. I like their scopes, but am getting a bit aggravated; not my first one to go back, as if I don't have enough stuff to do....

Like a good bud said about Dodge trucks, they're OK around the house, but he wouldn't want to take one on the road. (Not sure that's true, just one opinion).

Leupolds, and I have a number that do well, can be interesting. It's OK when you send them back, they'll fix or replace. May not be too cool in Zim or other far away place. But, what are extra scopes, already sighted in, taken on far away trips good for..?

Oh well...

DF

You're clearly delusional, of a fuggin American company hating commie.

VarmintGuy

That wouldn't have happened if you were skilled at shooting.

John Burns

Have to admit.....Finally got around to shooting the SB 6x42 PMII I bought from camaraland....After bore sighting at 100....got lucky and it was on paper.....Should be 4 or 5 clicks over and the same up to center....Well it was real close....so essentially a 2 shot sight in....Then a couple for fine tuning and they also went were they were supposed to....Clarity? Stunning is an appropriate description and it beats the Luepold 6x42.....I was impressed...

Sounds interesting. What, if I may ask, did it cost?

And, how much bigger and heavier than the Leupold?

DF

The 24 hour special run didn't sell out....so he gave a nice discount.... Been a while since I bought it so not sure....1K Plus a little...

Bigger and heavier....Specs say 16.8 ounces....It's a chunky....

DF

I just ordered 150 gr. CEB Raptors to try. They were out of 160's, the 150 is the one that frags and I like that design.

From data I've been able to find (not a lot out there), I think I can push them nearly 3K fps. They should be pretty destructive on hogs and WT's.

The CEB bullets I've shot in my .308 (135 gr.) and my .375 H&H (235 gr) have been very accurate. We'll see how these shoot in this gun.

DF

DF; please let us know how the CEB bullets work out.

Will do.

My .308 Win experience with their 135 gr. Raptor is covered in this link. See the review I wrote with pictures.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/308-135gr-er-extended-range-raptor

I don't really expect this level of performance in a rebored .358 Win, but who knows until you try. My .308 is a Kimber Classic that had a bad EOM barrel. A 23" Broughton 5C SS really morphed that rifle into a tack driver. It shot the group in the photo. If this M-70 will shoot the CEB 150 gr. Raptor, that bullet at near 3K has to be a bomb.... They're just expensive, but how many does one actually shoot at game..? Practice with cheap stuff.

So far, the POI with this gun varies from load to load, thus my idea of more than one scope sighted for different type loads. Well, until the VX-3 went bonkers.... Still not a bad idea.

The .308 Kimber factory barrel had tight spots and the Hawkeye showed the problem(s). Kimber wasn't too excited about fixing it, so I had the Broughton fitted. At least this JES .358 Win has a really smooth, consitent bore. A tight patch, as I posted earlier, passes down the bore with an even stroke, no tight or loose spots. Even with tool marks and some chatter with the rifling cutter, an even, uniform bore seems an important factor for a shooter. As this barrel smooths out, groups seem to be getting better, some 3/4", others 1". But it's finicky about what it likes. It also has shot some 2" and 3" groups, telling me it does not like those loads..

As posted earlier, I tried 200 gr. FTX and later 175 gr. FTX. It seems to like the 175 gr. a bit better, so maybe the fast 150 gr. CEB's will do well. I am afraid to push an FTX (a 35 Rem bullet) too fast, as 2,600 fps is reported to be at the top of the design window. I don't need varmint bullet performance on a WT. As a mono, the CEB should be able to handle speeds up to around 3K fps.. I have .358 Win, 150 gr. CEB load data showing 3K fps out of a 22" barrel with IMR 4198. With the 175 FTX's, H-4198 in my .358 Win shot tighter groups than IMR-4198. RL-7 is another good one.

DF

DF; thanks for the link to .308 review. Very interesting.

Don’t think that hog would agree.

That is an interesting bullet. If I was in a lead free zone, I’d be a serious CEB customer.

Sorta expensive.

DF

Well CEB is now out of the 150 gr. Raptor, but have the 160's. I ordered some, got a big Cyber Monday discount.

So, am off to the races with load development.

Today would be a good time to order.

DF

Ordered sample packs (15 bullets) from Hammer Bullets, got their .358, 178 gr. and 203 gr. Shock Hammers.

Kinda like the CEB. We'll see how they do. Reportedly they're lower friction, can push'em pretty fast. Check'em out.

https://hammerbullets.com/shop/page/11/

Now, what round is more versatile than the .358 Win....?

Enough options to keep a Loony entertained (out of trouble, out of jail) for quite a while....

DF

Come to think about it I haven't been in prison since the middle of March and I have four 358 Winchesters. But I really like those things. I did retire from Corrections at the end of March. Be Well, RZ.

Curious, do you find the Barnes line lacking?

I don't find Barnes lacking, use them, too.

CEB is just another bullet to work with, see what it can do.

It will expand better than a TTSX for one thing, and the ones I've shot in other rounds are as accurate..

The Hammer bullets are reported to be softer, expanding well....

I have the 180 TTSX in the line up.

This gun seems to prefer lighter bullets, even with the 12 twist. So, I'll feed it lighter bullets and see what gives.

A Loony's work is never done...

DF

Reboring rifle barrel takes it out of proof. Is such a rifle safe to shoot w/o going through a proof house?

Yes, a properly rebored rifle is safe to shoot without going through a proof house.

I don't know of a proof house in the US. I'm sure there are some. But there is always the SAMMI standards. And one should stay within those parameters. Like CIP standards in Europe. Be Well, RZ.

I proofed it behind my house....

If it can stand up to my reloads, it's a hoss of a gun...

It's proofed...

DF

Look what hit the door today Sako L57 rebored from .243 to .358 , 1:12 , Barrel shortened to 20" Can't wait to run some handloads through it this weekend.

That's nice. Look forward to your report.

DF

While the VX-3i is getting reintroduced, adjustment to the erector, so the POI actually corresponds to elevation and windage, I mounted this VX-3 1.75-6x32. It seems to work well on this gun.

Yeah, the 3.5-10x40 went bonkers, is back in Oregon getting fixed. I'm getting to like this 1.75-6. It may stay.

DF

I have one on a Sako but can't for the life of me remember whether it is the 243 or 308. It is a great scope for the hunting I do. I'm not a turret twister. And Weagle that is a great looking barreled action but I am jaded. I live Sako. Be Well, RZ.

DF

I have that same scope on one of my 7x57s. I have another in a box waiting (hoping?) for Leupold to start their reticle changes once again. I had it changed to heavy duplex and don’t like it. I’d like to have it changed back to regular duplex. The one I have mounted is regular duplex and it’s perfect in my neck of the woods, although truth be told I can’t remember when it’s budged off 4x. You’ve put together a nice outfit.

RM

Thanks, Rev.

The rather straight Pre-64 bolt handle requires slightly higher rings to prevent the ocular/bolt handle rubbing, causing the signature bolt handle scar.

Unlike the M-700 with a more contoured bolt handle, the Pre-64 presents a challenge. On another thread, some were using the Double Dovetail and or Burris Zee rings, both look better than the Warne Horizontal I'm using. But, as I noted on that thread, the .358 Win is such a versatile round, handling such an array of loads from pistol bullets to cast to fast monos to NPT's, NAB's etc, it's nice to have the ability to swap out scopes for a specific category of ammo. The Warne set up allows that. DD's and Zee's, not so easy.

Med Weavers on my gun ended up with bolt handle/ocular issues, whereas the low Warne is high enough to prevent that. Can't go with low/med, etc. You gotta try and see how each set up works. I'm not sure about the post '64 bolt handle, if it's more contoured to prevent this problem. You have Ingwe's post '64 7x57. Is that an issue?

DF

No, I have the 1.75-6 on an MRC in Talley extra lows. Same with my SC Fearherweight. No issue with bolt clearance. Ingwe’s M70 is in Warne low QDs. Mule Deer’s Kilimanjaro is in the same mounts he sent it with.

mitchellmountain did JES shorten your barrel and do the duracoat work as well as the rebore and rechamber? I like the idea of a 18.5" .358 Winchester!

I just bought Winchester 358 Win brass from Natchez for $31/50 + shipping. Just a heads up for those wanting correctly stamped brass like I did when I took mine to Africa.

Thanks for the heads up, Ed.

DF

I have just finished reading all 13 pages of this thread. I really enjoyed all the information. It has inspired me to build my own .358. !!

Kinda contagious.

It’s a very interesting round.

DF

I need to get a hold of JES and find out what the shortest barrel is that will still burn up all the powder. My Uncle has a 18.5" based on a Rem. 600. I have a couple of Ruger Hawkeye's but the barrel's are 16.5" Decisions, decisions...

Will be interetesting to hear what JES has to say about that. He may or may not have an opinion on ballistics and powder burn, confining his remarks to what he actually does. But, will wait to hear.

I like my 22" Fwt. But with the ,358 Win, I'd think a shorter barrel would work, wouldn't have the blast of a short barreled .300 Mag or equivalent.

I think you'll lose less velocity per inch of barrel chop than with a higher intensity round. The shortie will be louder, for sure. Now if you're gonna thread and use a suppressor....

I personally wouldn't build a 16 1/2" .358 Win, although some single shot pistols shooting rifle rounds have even shorter barrels.. I don't have one, don't want one.

My hearing is bad enough already....

YMMV

DF

Got the Sako put back together and ran a few rounds down the barrel. Spec's on the rifle: Westernfield / Sako L57, Rebored from .243 to .358 win. Barrel shortened by Jess to 20". 1:12 twist, 3 Grove. Weighs 7lbs 9oz with the Redfield 3x9.

I didn't have a lot of time today, so I put together some quick loads with some 150 gr Remington SPCL (I have a bunch of these) and H4895. One reduced load and one standard.

Reduced load : 150gr Rem SPCL, 38.4g H4895, Winchester Brass, WLRP, OAL 2.62, 5 shot Average 1630 fps
Standard load: 150gr Rem SPCL, 46.7g H4895, Winchester Brass, WLRP, OAL 2.62, 5 shot Average 2309 fps

I was only shooting at 50 yds as I was just looking to get the scope squared away and few rounds down the tube.

The reduced load shot just under an inch at 50 yds, Fired cases were smoky all the way back to the rim. Very light recoil, but really just a plinking load, minute of Armadillo.

Standard load was promising. Not a max load but fast enough and after making some adjustments to zero the scope, the last 3 shots at 50 were almost touching.

I have about 75 200gr Winchester silvetips on hand that I plan to use for a deer hunting load.

The only barrel prep I did was pull a bore snake through before I started. Did not clean between shots.

Now, that's nice, about perfect.

You gonna like that one.

I've found that the JES rebores do foul. I cleaned mine very well then did the Dyna Bore Coat treatment. The more I shoot and clean it, the less it fouls. And I'm using a Hawkeye borescope.

They're not gonna group like a new Shilen, but do pretty well. I'm pleased with how well mine shoots.

DF

I like that rifle and I'm thinking maybe I should have made my M70 a 20 inch instead of 22" but, that's always possible.

20" looks good on that one.

I didn't want to alter the look of my Pre-64 Fwt, so left it at the original 22".

DF

Here's a link to more .358 Win info, this time on the 200 FTX, referred to here.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...ith-200-grain-ftx-not-again#Post15550547

DF

Dirtfarmer- Regarding the 180 Barnes TTSX & Ramshot powders, FYI, I've used TAC & X-terminator. Using WW brass [in a 22" Hawkeye], which hold about 52.5 gr. to the base of the neck [which will be more than filled with the 180 TTSX bullet shank]. With TAC, I got up to 55 gr, very heavily compressed [well over 100+%], 2809 fps average, ES of 56fps, no pressure signs at all. COAL 2.705"; .050" off the lands. I thought a faster powder was called for and tried X-terminator, started at 48gr [2616fps], up to 52.5gr [2715fps]. No high pressure signs, rounded primer corner. I still need to try somewhat more compressed X-terminator loads but haven't yet. X-terminator was supposed to have great promise per Charlie Sisk & the Ramshot folks I read somewhere. I doubt it will reach the TAC velocity [yes, I appear to be trying to reach 35 Whelen velocities or about 95% thereof]. I've also tried the Speer 180gr flat point w/ H4198, starting load of 38gr in a Ruger American, 20" barrel, getting mid 2250s to 2311fps, big spread though. Thought this might help your research. -Mark

Thanks, Mark.

Today I shot 150 and 160 CEB Raptors out of the JES .358. They shot OK, but due to their light weight were 10-12" from the original POI. You'd have to resight just for those or have a different dedicated scope to swap out. I also shot Hammer 178 and 203's. I'm impressed with the 178 Hammer. It's accurate with faster powders and isn't way off the target, although a few inches high.

I'm going to order a box of 178 Hammer bullets to try on WT's. The gun shoots the 200 NAB's pretty well. It's about an inch and half gun, does shoot some sub inch groups, mainly with the 175 FTX which isn't widely available, not a catalog item, just something I got from Midway with one of their blue box/black box specials. Those bullets will shoot 3/4" but are worthless on WT's at 358 Win speeds. Even the 200 FTX is reportedly too expansive at 2,500 fps or so, do OK at 35 Rem speeds of around 2,200 fps. I know some push their 35's faster...

180 TTSX shoots pretty well, but the 178 Hammer is more accurate in my gun. The 203 Hammer was pretty good, the 178 shooting better. I'm using RL-7 (wish I could find more), H-4198, Benchmark and LT-32. No data on the latter, but I extrapolated a bit, got a starting load, haven't pushed it. I have X-Terminator on the way and think it may be pretty good. I haven't gotten real good groups with TAC.

I read that Vv n-133 has a smooth pressure curve and it does seem to shoot pretty well. I'll try more of it.

I dropped by Cabelas in Gonzales on the way down to Metairie for Christmas. I got their last bottle of H-4198, last two of H-4895 and a bottle of Benchmark. I left them one of those. As I expected, they didn't have much on the shelf and no primers. Their usual fairly large powder shelves were now down to a 4' set of shelves with very little merchandise.

I ordered a big jug of Big Game, 3 cans of X-Terminator from Midsouth.. Ya just gotta grab what you can when you can. Powder Valley had some X-Terminator but I think it's gone.

DF

BG and X-Terminator powder arrived.

I found some RL-7 at a general farm type store in MO. Go figure.

https://www.mkaysupply.com/

Least likely powder source, probably why it wasn't sold out. The usual big suppliers, PV, Midway, etc. slim pickin's...

DF

With my new RL-7 find, I'm gonna load Hammer 178's over RL-7 for WT's. They shoot around an inch and reportedly are good deer bullets. This .358 Win likes them, WT's probably not so much....

DF

Back in the 80's, I was looney about single shot pistols. I had several Competitor rotary breech single shot pistols, To examine one, you would think that Blaser did the machining of the parts on these guns. The 12", 14" or 16" barrels could be swapped out in about 10 minutes and they were extremely accurate. The list of offered chamberings was as long as your arm. I had one with a 16" factory chambered for 358 Winchester. Of the bench, It would easily shoot MOA and I could shoot 3 shots into 1.5" to 2" @100 yards in the semi Creedmoor position, thanks to my years for IHMSA shooting. Yes, a bit of muzzle blast. RJ

Bet that thing was a hoot to shoot...

DF

BTW, the more I shoot this JES .358 Win, the slicker it gets, easier to clean and groups seem to be shrinking. Part of the group thing could be me finding the loads that shoot best. Anyway, after a number of rounds, barrel pretty hot, a soaking or two with Patch Out and it's clean, like Hawkeye clean...

The chatter marks from the rifling machine, the inclusions, voids, etc that I see with the Hawkeye, don't seem to affect accuracy that much. It's an inch and a half gun, becoming a near MOA shooter with the right loads. Without going with a custom barrel, etc. I think that's pretty good for a relatively light medium bore hunting rifle, a re-bore at that.

The 178 Hammer over RL-7 may be a winner. Unlike the 150 and 160 CEB Raptors, the POI isn't that far away. Those shoot 8-10" high. They group pretty good, but sighted for them the gun would be way off for everything else. Whereas the 178 Hammers are not that far off, maybe a couple inches.

358 bullets that light (150 and 160) probably have low B.C.'s, not that big a deal with a .358 Win, but still something to think about. I may sight in another scope just for them, but not now.

For some reason, this gun likes faster powders, lighter bullets, even though it's a 12 twist. Go figure.

DF

Not sure if I'd already posted these here, know I posted them somewhere. Here are the 150 and 160 CEB Raptors. They look like they were turned on the same machine, just different materials, brass vs. copper, different weights based on density of the materials.

The other two are 203 and 178 Hammers. Note their scalloped rings for which, reportedly, they have a patent. Good gas seal, less bore resistance, higher velocities, all with good accuracy. Some posters have said the Hammer bullet plows straighter than the CEB's with less diversion. I don't know, just repeating what I've read. I think they both have good terminal performance. iPhone photos not the best, but give an idea.

CEB's have a ring to seal the bore, located forward of the lower rings. That ring doesn't need to be seated into the case neck, needs to be left out and not distorted.

All are machine turned, very accurate and expensive.

OK, I see the link I posted above has these photos and descriptions. I knew I had posted them somewhere, couldn't find them here. Senior moment, no doubt...

DF

I like those Hammers myself. Very good mono bullet for the money and usually accurate with very little fuss.

Which ones have you tried and what's terminal performance like?

DF

The 181’s in the 300 RUM, 220’s in my 35 Newton so far. No animal kills just easy easy load work ups. They don’t seem to care where they are placed in regards to the lands, and back and forth doesn’t make much difference on them.

I’ve got some 177’s for the Mashburn as well that I haven’t ran yet DF. Id suspect they’ll work similar to the CE bullets from the water jug tests I’ve done. They’ll lose petals pretty much upclose and fast but the widened front end seems to act like it’ll still tear jugs apart.

Hope to use more of them. I wanna grab some for the 22-250 and see what they do on coyotes myself. Then maybe a deer.

I just loaded 178 gr. Hammers in my JES bored .358 Win over 45 gr. RL-7. Haven't clocked it yet, but Speer shows 45 gr. RL-7 at over 2,750 fps with their 180's. The Hammer has scolloped driving rings, reportedly less resistance, potentially faster speeds compared to conventional bullets. So it could be moving even faster, may be able to bump that load. Will wait on that until I can set up my Chrono. This load is near MOA.

DF

The 181’s were deceptively fast in my RUM. Never saw pressure but they were a good 50-100 FPS faster than any other 180 I’ve used in that rifle. Wrong or not, I couldn’t tell but man, they shot.

To me, and most of us here, it certainly is. Interesting, that is.
But apparently it is no longer interesting to Nosler as they dropped it from the #9 manual. This despite them making one of the best bullets for it, the 225 Partition.
I'll have to keep on venting over that until I'm over it...;o)

Unrelated - check out Hornady's load for the 200 grain bullet with TAC - essentially exactly the same as the load in Mule Deer's famous .338 Fed/.358 Win comparison article. I killed a nice cow elk with it in my 99 Savage this fall. A 200 TTSX at 2700 FPS is not to be trifled with! (that's a 22" barrel - expect 2650' at least in that nice 20".

Cheers,
Rex

Whoops....

Now, they say they can't ship ammunition, order cancelled.

Wonder why no one knew until time to ship....

And, I'm not going to MO to pick it up.

Any of you guys near there, help yourselves...

Guess I'll lean more on X-Terminator, H-4198, Benchmark, stuff I actually have in stock..

DF

I ordered some Vollmer Precision Bullets, 180 gr. with heavy jackets for .358 Win velocities, semi spire points.

These are hand made, custom bullets, could be interesting.

Another thing about Vollmer, they'll make bullets for odd calibers, have a kit for slugging a bore.

I went with .358". I looked at which bullets shot best in this gun. Pistol bullets, like the 170 Gold Dot and 180 XTP measured .357", 225 NPT was .3575", the Speer 180 FN was .358+. 175 and 200 FTX's were .358, as was the 180 TTSX. So, there was no pattern there, other than it likes light bullets and fast powder. The .357 pistol bullets were about as accuate as any, the slightly larger Speer 180 FN was also pretty accurate.

https://vollmerbullets.com/

DF

Great thread! DF, I thought I had tried a bunch of bullets over the last 5 or 6 years in my Ruger Hawkeye 358 Win, but you've tried bullets I've not even heard of. I finally settled on Sierra 225gr. GK's over 48gr. of TAC using Win WLRM primers. I'm still in the process of working up a couple of loads using Speer 250gr. bullets. I really don't have a need for that heavy of bullet for my rifle, but it seems that so many are finding that they are really accurate and can be reliably used for most all large game in NA. I pretty much just hunt deer and hogs now as I've gotten too old to chase elk up and down mountains.

Biggs, that round is a hoot. I think I've spent more Loony time messing with it than about any round I can remember. And enjoying every minute.

I'm probably gonna end up with three dedicated scopes for different categories of loads. The 150 and 160 CEB Raptors have a POI at least 10" higher than the 200's. So, may have one scope sighted for them. Swapping out scopes is easier than sighting in for each category.

Then there is the 178 Hammer, POI closer to the others, but I'm gonna be pushing it, so who knows. The 203 Hammer is interesting, but I think the 178 is the only Hammer I'll need.

I have 200 gr. NAB's, 225 gr. SGK's, 225 gr. NPT's that I'm working with. Those are serious hunting bullets, but don't count out those fancy new monos.

The 180 TTSX shoots well, POI not that far from the 200's.

Then there are the pistol bullets. The 170 Gold Dots and 180 XTP's both shoot very well with fast powder. They measure .357, not .358. Slightly undersize doesn't seem to hurt a thing at the range..

The 180 FN Speer is a good shooter and it measures .3585.

Now, if something in that line up doesn't suit, we have a problem....

Faster powders seem to group better. I'm going to be pushing X-Terminator with all of them, even the 225's. I'm able to get a full charge in a case without compression. TAC is a tad bulkier and I'm not a fan of compressed loads. I like the powder to touch the bullet and I've found that full house loads of X-Term does just that. I've been using BR-2 primers, but am staring to use CCI 250's, especially with ball powders.

The JES bore is starting to smooth out. Fouling isn't a problem as it was earlier. DBC helps for sure, but a lot of bullets down the tube seems to slick it up. And, it seems accuracy may be improving.

DF

Some more data from the 20" Jess Rebored Sako. Old stock Winchester 200gr Silvertip factory load. Avg velocity 2348 fps.
I only have about a box and a half of these so after 4 shots to chrono / zero the scope, a single 3 shot group at 50yds ; 1st 2 shots through the same hole, 3rd shot opened group to .57"

To this point all I have done is shoot the rifle and pull a bore snake through it when I'm done.

That’ll do.

DF

I just picked up a big jug of RL-7 from PV. They get in a shipment then it’s gone. Gotta be quick.

Some of my best .358 Win groups have been with RL-7 and lighter bullets. And, it’s good in the .45-70 and others.

Glad to find some. May not have needed a big jug, but won’t be worried about running out. Not for a long time.

DF

I'm researching powders that will fill the case without much if any compression, and give full power performance with optimal groups.

So far the best are RL-7 with lighter bullets, X-Term with 180's and 200's. TAC may edge X-term with 225's, but with some compression. I'm not shooting 250's, would if it was a Whelen.

DF

Shoot you some 250gr Speer Hot-Cor RN or SPT over Win 748. Post a picture of the big smile it puts on your face.

DF thanks for sharing all your data. Don't forget to show us photos of your game shot with the Nosler Partitions. Be Well, RZ.

Had a little help from a friend to even have those bullets.

I hate to “waste” them on WT’s. They’d be perfect for bigger critters.

We’ll see.

Thanks

DF

Just may have to try that. Those RN’s should be short enough to not take up excessive powder space. TAC should work well with them.

DF


Edited to add, will have to wait until they reappear. Ghost bullets like a lot of others.

Good luck in finding Speer RN but, the spitzer Hot-Cor works nicely.

I just got my VX-3 3.5-10x40 CDS back from Leupold. They say they fixed it.

I'm going to put it an another set of Warne Horizontal low rings. So, I'll have three scopes set up for the various categories of loads this gun can shoot.

Pistol bullets, light fast CEB's, 178 gr.-225 gr. bullets. We'll see how that all shakes out.

DF.

Old thread, new report.

I shot my .358 JES rebored Pre-64 FWT today in Iberville Parish at their new $2 mil Parish range. It's first class, state of the art facility with very helpful and knowledgeable staff. Wife and I were in Baton Rouge, visiting family. I went across the Sunshine Ferry to the range with my nephew who had shot there before. He had ridden the ferry a bunch with his engineering job at a petro chemical plant down river. Covid and Sleepy Joe really did a job on that industry.

I brought a number of loads, most shot pretty good. The standout was this 160 gr. Cutting Edge Bullet (CEB), Raptor. The gun usually shoots 1" to 3", depending on the load. It really liked this one.

I've had good luck with the 135 gr. ER Raptor in my .308 Win, great accuracy, deadly on hogs. They do frag as advertised, the core blowing on thru for a good exit. Check out my review on that bullet. I've written one for the 160 gr .358 Raptor, but it's not yet posted. https://cuttingedgebullets.com/308-135gr-er-extended-range-raptor Accuracy with the 135 gr. .308 similar to this one.

I haven't killed anything yet with my 358, but this 160 gr. Raptor load should whack'em pretty well.

The gun has a new Trijicon 3-9x40 Accupoint, duplex type reticle and green dot. It's a quality scope in every way. The Leupold I mentioned earlier ended up on a Ruger Mk-II '06 I put together. I like the Trijicon on this one.

Anyway, just three shots, but I was shooting three shot groups with a bunch of loads, looking for loads with promise. Well, this one has promise, was a stand out. I'll load and shoot more groups. I'm not sure how fast it's moving, could be pushing 3K. Will figure that out later. This range session was to sight in the scope and do a load survey. Shooting a number of loads, the barrel can get pretty hot with strings of shooting and I can get an idea of what a load can do with three. I always take at least a couple of rifles, shoot one while the other cools.

DF

I'd say that's good enough for anything in Louisiana or most other places!

I think so. I was pretty surprised when that group happened. I'm not sure how a 5 shot group would look, probably pretty good.

CEB bullets are pretty pricey, but they are accurate with great terminal performance. If I was in a lead free zone, these would be my first line bullets.

As it is, they are high on my list of hunting bullets. Concerning the cost, how many do we actually shoot at game. My idea, shoot enough to get the gun sighted, then shoot cheaper stuff for practice.

Surprisingly, the 150 gr. Raptor, while accurate, couldn't match the 160's. This gun wasn't impressed with the 200 gr. NAB's, didn't seem to like NPT's. The 178 gr. Hammer shot pretty well, nothing was able to match the 160 gr. Raptor.

DF

Well maybe, maybe not....

This gun, even though it's a 12 twist, has always preferred lighter bullets. I have no idea why, just go with what it shows me.

The 160 CEB Raptor was a bonus. I'm gonna post pictures of the gun with the Trijicon 3-9x40 Accupoint in horizontal Warne rings. I was thinking I was going to have to shim a base, as I was near the edge of the scope adjustment when I found the right zero. But, it's working and I'm not gonna worry about it. And, even at the edge of adjustment range, the Trijicon sight picture and glass clarity is perfect. So, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

DF

twist has more to do with length of bullets than weight...

I agree that twist has more to do with bullet length than weight.

But, a 12 twist .358 Win isn't slow, should be fast enough to stablilze heavier, longer bullets.

I wasn't expecting a 12 twist to prefer lighter weight bullets. I know, non-lead bullets tend to be long for weight as they're less dense than lead.

I just ordered more 160 gr. CEB Raptors, have plenty of X-Term. Even though I've tried all sorts of bullets and loads, I think the 160 Raptor may become the main hunting bullet for this gun.

DF

Nice looking setup. What was the original chambering? And what's it weigh as is? That ought to put the thump on anything on either side of the Mississippi River.

7 #, 13 oz as it sits. It was a shot out .243 before JES got it. He took out a good bit of metal which probably helped with the weight. I reworked the stock, glassed and free floated it. I was surprised how well this load worked. Expensive bullets, but they do what they’re advertised to do.

If you’ve priced an original Pre-64 FWT .358 Win, you’ll appreciate a JES conversion. And I believe this one will shoot with any original and for a LOT less money. He does good work, is fast and not that expensive.

DF

I think you crushed it. Perfect hunting rifle for back east! Looks like it is shooting really well. All of my JES guns have been excellent as well. Not a complaint about them.

I had a custom shop 358 win model 70… nice rifles…

I like it!

Well, they tend to foul a good bit until smoothed out by use. I did the DBC treatment, which helped. The more shoot and clean cycles, the better it did. DBC really works, IMO....

JES seems to get a lot of work and for a reason.

DF

A Loony just can't help being a Loony.

I have more scope combos, load combos for this .358 Win than about any rifle I've ever fooled with and that includes a bunch.

The Trijicon 3-9x40 in the horizontal Warne med rings was within 4 clicks of being at the edge of the adjustment range. It worked OK,

But, a Loony just doesn't like that. So, I've ordered a medium set of Burris Signature rings and an offset insert set. I've adjusted the Trijicon to the center of the adjustment range. I went from end to end and found there were 270 clicks, wall to wall. So, I went half way with elevation and windage, which should have the reticle pretty well centered.

I'm going to manipulate the offset inserts until it's as close as I can get it, then fine tune POI with the scope adjustments. To the Trijicon's credit, there was no evidence of optical issues at the edge of the adjustment range. It's just the idea more than anything.

I've never used Signature rings, but have read good things about them. I think I can bore sight the rifle, adjust the offsets to get pretty close, then shoot it.

Those rings aren't as easy to remove and replace as the Warnes. Hopefully, I can remove the bottom screws and slide the rings off the bases.

Any advice?

DF

I have had to use the Burris rings a few times, especially on P64's. My 338 Alaskan is bad enough that it just about maxes out elevation in a scope on flat mounts, so the Burris XTR's work perfect to get some elevation back into the mix.

They are a bit of a pain to get mounted, but I wouldn't fret it too much DF, Favor the insert to the windage correction and I bet you'll be darned close.

I haven't tried sliding them off like that but I think it might work since the Burris rings with inserts will take the stress off the tube.

Have you held it against a mirror to check?

I put the 1.75x6 on the .358 while working out details with the Trijicon rings. It works well with this round, 1.75X for fast shots, 6X for longer shots. It's always a good option.

The VX-3 3-9x40 CDS that went bonkers, was repaired by Leupold and is now on my Ruger 77 Mk-II.

DF

I remember something about that trick. Tell me again how it works.

DF

Found this on line. I think Leupold has it on their website, although this is from another source.

Centering of a scope's adjustment dials
The elevation and windage adjustments of a scope are easily centered. Place a small mirror against the objective end of the scope. That would be the end farthest from your eye as you look through the scope. Make certain that the mirror is large enough to cover the entire objective. It must also be flat against the objective. With the scope's power selector ring set at the lowest magnification, look through the eyepiece as you would while aiming at a target. If the scope's windage and elevation adjustments are off center, you will see two images of the reticle (cross-hair). To reach the center of the adjustment range, simply turn the elevation and windage dials until you see only one image of the reticle.

DF

That's interesting info about P-64's and scope rings. I didn't realize that until I was working with this one.

DF

Press the objective end of the scope against a firmly mounted wall mirror and look into the scope. When the adjustments are off center you'll see two reticles. Turn the adjustments until the two appear as one and it'll be pretty close to centered.

I see you beat me to it.

Just the nature of the beast I guess. Some were fine and some were put together a touch crooked. I'd assume that is why the old Redfield type windage mounts were somewhat popular back then. Today, with the Burris set up's, it really isn't a big deal.

The plan was to put the Trijicon on this '06 77 Mk II. But Ruger rings are what they are, not much you can do to move them. The Trijicon has a slightly shorter ER and tube length than the VX-3 3-9x40, so the Leupold worked out better on the Ruger. This Boyds Classic was cut down from 40 oz to 32 oz. I drilled out the butt, cut off the cheek piece, slimmed it down and finished it with tung oil/urethane (Pro Oil) from Brownells.

32 oz mo better than 40 oz, gun handles a lot better with the lighter weight handle.

DF

Here's where some of that extra weight went...

Notice absence of cheek piece and slimmed down butt stock

DF

Well, wall to wall then half way back with adjustments didn’t exactly fit the mirror trick. Took some twisting to zero center position. Now waiting for offset Signature set up to remount Trijicon. Will report.

DF

How much variance was there DF?

I didn't count the clicks, maybe 30 or so, more than I figured it would take.

The mirror is probably going to be a better indicator of optical center than half the total wall to wall clicks. I can't say why those two aren't the same, just didn't work out that way.

DF

I guess as long as it zeros up without too much being in the sides you’ll be good to go.

Look forward to tweaking Signature ring offsets. New experience for me. Never fooled with those before. They should be what I need for this.

DF

I want to thank Mathman for his help with this project.

It was his suggestion that horizontal Warne rings would work with the M-70 bolt handle and they did.

Again, suggesting the mirror trick to adjust a scope to optical center. I had forgotten about that.

It’s the details that make a project humm…. And technical details are a function of experience. And lots of that on this site. Others have chimed in and don’t ya just love it when a plan comes together.

And my wife wonders why I spend time here on the Fire. Thanks to all and thank you Rick.

DF

Unless you are using inserts to correct for misalignment I do not see the need to adjust the reticle to optical center. The reticle will end up in the same location either way once zeroed

It was working well near the edge of adjustment. Just the idea of having it near the center of optical range is a Loony idea. Trijicon optics were perfect even at the edge. Signature off set technology is new to me. Will work it out and report.

DF

I believe overall centering via inserts is the play he's making, so centered adjustments are what he wants.

I agree when using inserts

Operating a scope at or near optical center is theoretically preferred, although with the excellent Trijicon optics, I couldn't tell any difference. I found I was just a few clicks from adjustment limits as I was sighting in the load. It worked well, as one can see from the group I posted. It's just the idea of getting as close as one can to optical center for no other reason than, just 'cause.

After Beretzs related his experience with mounting scopes on P-64's, I realized that may just be a fluke with P-64's. I have other P-64's, haven't encountered that, but as he mentioned, I did use the old fashioned Redfield bases with the external windage adjustments. Ya reckon that could explain why such a mounting system was popular back in the day?

Signature offset inserts seem to be a good option for this rifle and I'm gonna give'em a whirl... I want to keep my Weaver bases, which work with other scopes set up for different type loads, like pistol bullets, etc.

I've had a lot of practice bore sighting, can generally put one on the paper at a hundred. I'll set up on a solid bench, bore sight and tweak the inserts until the optically centered scope is on target. I'll tighten down the rings, double check, then shoot. It should be close enough by then to complete the sighting in with scope adjustments and be pretty close to optical center..

DF

Update.

I received the Signature rings and offset inserts today.

I put the bases on the rifle, and, like in my pre horizontal Warne days, the M-70 bolt handle touched the power ring on the Tirjicon. I had the base screws on the right, swapped the rings around, base screws on the left. The bolt handle now misses the scope.

Seems as the base screw is tightened, the scope is pulled in that direction. We're not talking about much, but in this case, millimeters count. I put the +10 offset insert in the bottom of the rear ring, -10 on the top, neutral inserts, front. It may take more than that to center the scope with the POI. Hopefully, I can play with it this weekend and report back.

If the scope was adjusted near the top of the adjustment range for zero, jacking up the rear ring should make it shoot higher, allowing me to adjust the elevation turret downward for zero. But, the reticle is now centered, so we'll see where it is on the target when I boresight. I'll tweak inserts to get as close as possible before I adjust elevation and windage.

This is going to work. Not sure +10 is enough, just guessing, we'll see. But, I have +20 insert and can combine offset rings in opposition for even greater offset.

DF

Help me figure this. This Trijicon has 270 clicks top to bottom, so 135 clicks from top to center. If I was 4 clicks from the top when I shot the 160 Raptor group, then it seems there are around 130 or so clicks down to where I want to be.

I'm not sure how accurate this is, as the mirror trick was a bit off (30 clicks or so) from those calculations. With 4 clicks per inch, that would calculate around 32". With the reticle now optically centered, does that mean I'm approximately30 MOA off, I know MOA is not exactly an inch and I'm not sure how the Signature rings coincide with the horizontal Warne's.. Would I need +20 rear, -10 front with ring spacing around 6" to have the reticle centered scope at POI?

Guess I'm gonna find out.

DF

I have never been that far off DF, but generally you use the +20 in the back and -20 negative in the front. They come with good instructions on what you’ll need in order to get it squared up. Depending on the length between the rings that should get you close to center.

The rings should come with a cheat sheet that even a Marine can’t mess up, too badly

You right about that. Great instruction even an old Army guy can follow. Maybe even a Marine.

It was a pleasure working with these Signature rings and offset inserts.

Ya reckon one can over think these things. Seems I did.

Bottom line, +10 at the rear for elevation, lateral 5 at the front for windage, it's now on solid at 25 yds. I haven't shot it yet, but after 50 yrs. of bore sighting, I know where it is. +20 at the rear was too much.

And, the P-64 bolt handle misses the Trijicon power ring. Those are quality rings. I know they'll slide off the Weaver bases, but I won't try that until I'm done and the rings are tight where they're gonna stay.

Thanks,

DF

Bit late in discovering this thread, but just wanted to say you did amazing work on that rifle, DF. The Winchester looks like a million bucks. And as always, soaking up info like a sponge from lots of you fellas throughout the convo.

Thanks,

Welcome aboard, it's been a neat project.

DF

I kinda knew you were thinking too hard on it. The instructions are darned good and really lay it well. They’re a great solution rather than the old ways of cutting beer cans and stuff like that.

It worked out in spite of all my ”thinking” and figuring.

Trial and error reigns. I’m happy. Gun seems to be happy, too.

DF

I do the same DF. I know I use them in a few rifles and am happy with them. My 338 wears them as well along with a few others. They are nicer to me than a darned rail. For me, I’d rather put wheels on my gun than a pic rail.

10-4 on rails for hunting guns.

To each his own, just my take.

DF

Even the newer ones sometimes have problems. I built .404J using a 300 RUM, SS NH M-70 donor. I used steel Talley bases for QD rings. I found that the action screw holes were canted to the left. I had my smith drill 8x40 holes. He couldn't use the 6x48 factory holes because they were too far off. He had to off set those holes for the new ones, had to drill new holes in the bases. So, with that gun, one would have to consider those bases permanent. So it wasn't just P-64's.

DF

Well, I got the Trijicon mounted in offset Signature rings. I learned that by putting the base tightening screws on one side or the other, the scope moves slightly to the take up side. On the right, the P-64 bolt handle brushed the Trijicon power adjustment ring. On the left, there is clearance. Pretty cool.

And with the ring screws tight, I removed the base tightening screws and the scope slid right off the bases. Now, it does take some jiggling to get them lined up and back in place, but it works. I can swap out scopes for other classes of ammo. The .358 is pretty amazing how many types of bullets, loads it can shoot. The POI can be pretty different, so swapping scopes sighted for each category is the way to go.

I think this Trijicon with the 160 Raptor load may be my main WT and hog combo. Would be hard to not go with that one. The gun has a near perfect 3# trigger And, yes, the old style M-70 trigger can be tweaked to a really good pull without slack, creep, noticeable overtravel, etc. This one is there.

You may notice that the rear of the front ring is flush with the rear of the base. I wanted the scope back a tad, so filed a wider recoil slot in the front Weaver base. The rear base recoil slot will prevent any movement, and don't think the .358 kicks enough to move the scope, anyway. For sure there won't be movement of the scope in the rings. Those inserts really grip the scope tube.

DF

Working on loads. The 160 Raptor has been a good performer over X-Term and RL-7. The way that bullet is made, I have to compress powder, which isn't a big deal, But, I prefer not to if possible.

The 178 Hammer has also performed well, about as accurate as the Raptor. The Hammer is designed to be low resistance and thus can be pushed faster. Note their proprietary bands. It also is sleeker, has a longer COAL than the Raptor in this gun. .358 Win data is pretty conservative, probably in consideration of older guns. A strong, modern bolt gun can probably handle more pressure than a vintage Savage 99.

Here is a photo showing the relationship of the Raptor 160 and the Hammer 178, both seated in dummy rounds. The Pre-64 "short action" set up has a generous box mag. It starts at around 3" and tapers a bit. The COAL of the Hammer in this gun is in the 2.9" range, Raptor 2.7" or so. Giving it some jump, the Hammer load is still pretty long. Plenty of room in this box. Notice powder room with the Hammer compared to the Raptor.

This .358 doesn't like the 200 gr Horn IL, the 200 NBT. or most heavier bullets, have not tried the 225 NPT. This gun prefers lighter bullets even though it's a 12 twist. Doesn't always have to make sense, just gotta listen to the gun.

BTW, the Raptor group I posted, as you probably figured, wasn't repeatable. But the Raptor and Hammer will both shoot MOA or better consistently. Don't we always post our best groups....

Doesn't mean we can repeat them....

DF

I'm liking the 178 Hammer. It shoots MOA or close with 46 gr. RL-7 and 52 gr. TAC. Not sure which one I want to use.

The 203 Hammer also shot good over RL-7, just hit a bit lower.

The Hammer doesn't need to sit as far down in the case, doesn't require as much powder compression.

They say it expands pretty well, sorta like a soft TTSX. Some say it sheds pedals like the Raptor. I don't know.

May take the .358 M-70 FWT deer hunting this weekend. I'll use one of the 178 Hammer loads and will report if I draw blood.

DF

I'm going with 46 gr. RL-7. Group seemed slightly tighter than the 52 TAC load. Either one would work.

And the bottom of the 178 Hammer bullet is just slightly into the 46 gr. powder column, which is at the top of the shoulder, slightly into the neck. No air space, minimal if any compression.

This Lee seater is hit or miss. Some rounds are about perfect, other have some run out. I know this isn't a long range target set up, I just like my rounds concentric. So after the Lee Factory crimp, I check them with a Sinclair gauge, correct runout with a TruAngle tool. I can often get what I'm looking for with one adjustment, sometimes it takes two or three. I probably need a better seater. I got the Lee die set because I wanted their Factory Crimp Die and getting it with a set is the cheapest way to go.

DF

That's pretty cool. I believe you'll enjoy working with that one.

As if I don’t have a safe full of hunting rifles.

Must be a Loony thing.

DF

I wouldn't turn one down for any reason. Be Well, RZ.

Follow up on the .358 Win.

I killed a 100# doe at 60 yds. this morning with the 178 gr. Hammer at around 2,800 fps. Haven't clocked it yet, but that's probably close. Will report when I get around to clocking it. Their proprietary scalloped banding reportedly cuts down on resistance; they tend to run faster than conventional bullets from what I've read.

Hit deer behind the right shoulder, it clipped the rear of the left shoulder on exit. Heart and lungs were messed up pretty bad. She jumped, ran, stumbling for nearly 40 yds, piled up, never out of sight.

Here are photos of her heart and lungs, entrance right rib cage, exit left and left shoulder. Shoulder looks worse than it is. Some blood shot, but not that extensive. Sorta gory looking but how else ya gonna know without seeing the carnage.

The Hammer is reportedly a softer mono, and from what I've seen, would have to agree. It evidently expanded pretty well. I didn't think to look for a blood trail, as there she lay, dead. Based on internal damage, entrance and exit holes, probably adequate..

DF

Love those mid bores

Me, too.

I don't mind pushing the .358 Win a bit in a strong bolt gun. A lot of the data takes into consideration, older lever guns.

The primer is starting to flatten a bit with this load, not that primers are a trusted pressure indictor. Using the faster powder may have something to do with that and this is a pretty hot load for that bullet. It shoots tight groups and it's a killer.

What's not to like.

And the old Pre-64 is a pleasure to work with.

DF

You’re right.

You’ve got some very nice rifles and make some excellent posts!

Thanks, I enjoy them.
Appreciate you taking the time to share.

Thank you for those kind words.

I enjoy the technical aspects about as much as the actual hunt. I’m more of a gun nut, the hunt is my laboratory and testing ground if that makes any sense.

DF

That's some good work and tasty vittles DF. Looks like a bulletin went out warning all of my woods loafing with my post 64 .358. All I have seen have been 1 1/2 year old spikes, not a grown deer among them. Probably go out in the morning again.

I sent this link to the Hammer web site...

Steve Davis replied that if you look, you can see where the petals exited. Pretty neat, hadn't noticed but he's right. I wasn't sure if Hammer bullets fragged like CEB's, but evidently they do. As noted earlier, I chose Hammer over CEB because of the bullet shape and ability to seat them out farther. This particular bullet is sleeker than the 160 CEB. Accuracy and terminal performance seem to be pretty close. With the .358 Win, case capacity can be an issue and the Hammer 178 allows a bit more room. Probably a Loony thing, but it is what it is.

Thought I'd post his observations and do appreciate his attention to detail and to my email. Seems that level of involvement contributes to their success.

Check out their web site. Pretty neat.

DF

Just dawned on me that the spun off petals could be what whacked the shoulder like that. Check out those small wounds, 360* around the main exit hole.

Interesting.


DF

I mentioned primer flattening, but it’s not flat all the way. I’ve seen a lot worse. And the bolt opens with no resistance, the case drops out. No bolt marks on the case head. I’d say pressure was well within allowable range.

DF

Cool rifle!

Glad to see RL7 getting used in .358. For 200’s and under, it’s the shizzle. Did JB write it up...? I tried to get him to include it in a .358 loading write-up about a decade ago, but he didn’t, which was disappointing because it works so well.

I’ve been using the 200 Accubond in my .358 Model 7 and really liking it. Then again, each of the 4 bullets I’ve killed deer with n .358 worked great; just kind of different flavors of great.

Yeah, read your stuff.

Agree on RL-7.

DF

DF, would you happen to remember which model of Pachmayr pad that is exactly? Thanks!!

It was there when I got the gun.

It looks like a brown Decelerator. I smoothed it up a bit. Whoever installed it did only a fair job. It’s better now.

DF

Edited to add, the picture you quoted shows it taped with masking tape.

tagging this thread. Thanks DF.

I think I’m becoming a Hammer fan. I like Barnes, but seem Hammers are more expansive. And as such, maybe heavier bullets at less than warp speed may perform very well on game.

A bit different concept. CEB, Hammer and Barnes are IME, all accurate, the former two offering “expanded” options.

DF

Same here. They’re making good hunting bullets.

CEB bullets are good. But, I think Hammer may have the edge with their patented groove design, which reportedly has less resistance, thus faster speeds. And with the 178 .358 Hammer, the shape is better, seemingly with higher ogive, not that this is a LR target bullet. I just like the way it seats in the case.

I've not tested them side by side, but it makes sense.

I consider Barnes to be the classic mono and they do make good bullets. But, if I can shoot a heavier mono at less than all out velocity and still have good terminal performance, then that may be the better mouse trap.

Interesting developments in bullet technology.

DF

Yes sir. I believe you’re onto something with it. I like how they shoot. Easiest shooting mono going.

Here's a link to the Hammer site. Check out bio's of the founders.

They're responsive to their customers. Impressive guys, impressive products.

When I emailed this thread link, Steve Davis responded with his observations of the WT photos. As posted, I had not noticed the satellite exits around the core exit. He knew what he was seeing. Now, I can see it. Attention to detail is what Hammer is all about.

https://hammerbullets.com/about-us/

DF