How many guy's hunt with one in the pipe with the safety on?I do.So do most of all hunting partners.Granted we know what were doing.To me it's no big deal.How about you?

When I am guiding, never one in the pipe except in final approach.

Same when I am hunting alone or with another.

In the "black timber" of course I am alone and then when I get on a track I will load one up.

Just my way

Mark D

I run with an empty chamber and uncocked.

I do. When traversing steep terrain or any place I am more likely to fall I clear the chamber. Many folks perceive it's for a snap shot. Not for me. It's a noise thing for me. Not everyone hunts with bolt actions. I understand why guides insist on clients having empty chambers. If I'm ever a client I won't have a problem with it.

The only time my rifle has the chamber unloaded is when the firearm is placed into a vehicle or handed to another hunter for whatever reason or when I am tagged out. I guess its a personal decision for everyone but I don't see hunting without one in the chamber. Esox357.

I put one in the chamber when I get to the spot that I am going to hunt. The chamber is empty when I am walking to my hunting spot..

I also think if we keep a close look at this it will be sort of a where are people from thing.

The west I expect the empty chamber to be fairly common and in the jungle country (minne, cheesehead land, the south etc) I will expect to see loaded chambers.

Just a guess.

Mark D

There was a really long thread on just this topic a while back if you want to search. Sorry, don't recall exactly where or what forum but it was informative.

Couldn't formulate a single reason,to be reckless enough...to carry cocked/locked..................

Bang on.Couldn't of said it better myself.

"treat every weapon as if it were loaded" is easy to remember when every weapon is. when my weapon is hot its on my person. if i put it away, hand it off or put it down (rare) its unloaded magazine empty and/ or removed.

....I hunt with one in the chamber. Mostly sit stand these days..

Found it:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads...true#Post543348

Side note...gusts to 106mph in town this afternoon,thus far,supposed to get ugly tonight.

Momma called and said someone lost their grip on their car door and it flew open and seperated from the vehicle. Pretty funny.

Figured you'd enjoy that....................

Unchambered, untill in the tree.

i've got a cousin who only chambers a round when he is approaching game and is ready to shoot... his chamber is empty for most of the hunt.....
whenever i hunted with him he always preferred for me to do likewise, and i did it for his peace of mind... several times i worked my way into a shot only to realize that i had an empty chamber...
when i attempted to flip the safety off, to shoot, and it was already forward, i remember wishing i could kick myself in the azz..... sometimes it worked out OK... sometimes it didn't... he always got a kick out of it though!!!

same cousin and i hunted together in wisconsin a few years back... big woods country, and i advised him to chamber a round as soon as we left the truck... he complied... 30 minute later we're working our way through a neck of timber between two small lakes when we jump a decent 8 pointer... i thought jeff was gonna yank his action loose from the stock trying to chamber a round with the safety on.... then he pushes his safety forward, and ejects a loaded round into the snow!!!

from then on, whenever i hunted with him in colorado he told me to carry my rifle however i cared to..... john w

Could it be those nasty winds we had last night that knocked power out in town? It's been a strange winter so far and the winds are only making things worse, don't open any truck doors tonight..............

Folks are saying "Hurricane" is forecast,I can't know as I never looked/listened.

Plenty foul,however.......................

Is it cold too up your way.

Man...I hate hearing about high winds when I'm not home. Glad KT is keeping the place covered....

31 below here, light wind, 50 below wind chill. I ain't goin' outside....

Undoubtedly,there will be new blue tarps and spare tires on many roofs,coming morning.........................(grin)

40 degrees here...raining hard enough to hurt.

'Nuther Blued/Walnut day in Paradise.....................

I've fallen on my azz too many times, and seen others do the same, to ever want to scramble around with a hot chamber....

Tough to practice good muzzle control, when you're cartwheeling....

I still hunt down here...starts the moment my boots clear the truck, ends with a bang and there is no graceful way to work an action a few feet in front of a deer. Bird hunting varies with circumstance, sometimes loaded, often not. Never shot anybody by accident, never shot anybody or anything with an unloaded gun either. Out there in the big sky country there would likely be room to reconsider needs, when it's close work, well just remember that rule about not pointing at something you don't want to shoot. Always works...all the time.

Don't blame you one bit.Pretty damm chilly

Don't leave loaded rifles in the Living Room and there's far less weather/terrain to contend there,than in the field.

Never not been able to have a round chambered,before rifle was shouldered....................

A very good observation. I think you nailed it.

I have to agree with BDave, I usually hunt with at least one other person and having a round in the chamber is just not an option for safety's sake. Now when i'm going in for a kill shot or follow up, then I have one in the chamber but thats about it. BD, where are you at right now? Prudhoe?? Slope??

I never keep a loaded rifle on the quad boat or truck just walking.Usually most if not all my hunting is solo.I do however never keep a gun loaded while hunting with my nephew.I guess it's a personal choice that only you can make.We all have our comfort level.

Yeah, the slope...

loaded rounds are pretty standard when and were the HOT range rules. true safety (finger off trigger ect. ) takes precedence and not some BS 4-H club rules. its only for the big boys and self discipline is a must.
one big positve is that theres no question if its loaded or not if you assume it is.
one the cold range a closed bolt is subject to inspection.
then again its not an issue until you relinquish your weapon.
so dont.

Laffin'....................

At least it's been cold enough that the chinook that blew through wasn't warm enough to melt all the nice snow we got. I'd say this is the best winter we've had in a long time.

Was just heading out the drive to go shopping with the kids when the lights went dead last night. Perfect timing as I wasn't much in the mood for shopping, and candlelight is nice once in awhile. Also reminded me we could do a better job of being prepared for such situations.

As far as wandering around ready to rock, I used to do so when I first came up here, as I had the typical cheechako's case of bearanoia. That's mostly worn off. Hunted with a group last year that was hot and heavy to get their blacktails, always walking around hot. In hindsight I have no desire to hunt like that anymore.

After going through hunter safety with the kids, they are the best reminder as to why one practices firearm safety, at all times. They've caught me many times at things I've gotten slack with, and instead of telling them such things don't matter, I've taken it as an opportunity to be more aware of my gunhandling, and to praise them for their good gunhandling skills.

Wet fall vegitation on slopes is some slick stuff <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I agree about the living room, finding holes in ceiling likely to occur during low light/rain storms, that sort of thing I always imagine...sometimes my living room is more cluttered than a bay strand though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Suspect we hunt different circumstance by a fair margin Stick, and as I said, in what little I've seen of your country, and similar realms of the Nawth I'd tend to agree with your experience, and philosophy. OTOH, come to my world and still hunt the bottoms with an empty barrel...you'll be fryin' up tracks for dinner sure 'nough. Whitetails won't suffer such foolishness in these parts. Hogs don't either. Distances are in feet, not yards.... cover is very dense...alla time.

You just think you've seen brush/cover.................

I've had three different rifles manhandled by three different people go boom in my face. Suprise, and guess what? All three were hot chambers. You hunt anywhere near me, you keep your bloody chamber empty. Period.

I also don't hunt with but a select few anymore.

CB- back in my college days a guy I played ball with gave me a present of a .22 in the side so I am veddy veddy careful and pretty much a nazi about this anymo!

Mark D

Probably a very good guess.

The wrong crowd.I understand what your saying.I'd be puck shy too.Thankfully never hunted with knobs like that.

Never had a round in the chamber all season till it was GO time, have used the rifle plenty as a walking stick depending on terrain.......

An empty chamber can NEVER "oops","mebbe","might","what-if","WTF?!!" or "SORRY!".

Have always liked them odds and they's ingrained..................

Can't think of a single deer lost by having an empty chamber, same goes with bears and goats. Can think of some damn silly position's (not on purpose) that I have ended up in whilst chasing said critters..

Mechanical impossibilities,can be soothin'..................

Steely we don't want to hear about your silly positions.......grins

Especially for Paul, he's usually in front..........

I already told ya man.......grins

Bastard.........grin

one bastard goes out another one comes in......

Always hunt with one in the chamber

when alone one in chamber, any other time 2 in hand'

I cycle the bolt and chamber a round when I place the rifle in the ready position, on smooth terrain. The rest of the time, the chamber is cleared. That includes the rig, the shoulder sling, and the saddle scabbard.

I have come out the back side of more than a couple hands and knees or belly crawl brush patches and found the safety on the 70 in the ready position, and once she was decocked. That would have been an eye opener had there been a round in the chamber. Once had the kid get his 4-H pony tangled with a tree. Broke the stock off and dropped the hammer on my 70 in 264.

I ain't never been hungry enough to compromise firearms safety in order to better my chance to kill a critter.

I practice "every gun is always loaded, never point it at anything you are not willing to destroy."

Like the "mechanical impossibilities" Stick, cause the "human impossibilities" happen for some reason!

At work, I have about three guns with loaded chambers on my person at all times. I don't see much need in doing things differently while I am in the woods.

I wear a uniform at work, don't whilst hunting...

Knowing you that's gotta hurt...Hence the weird McSwirleys.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It don't, in fact I'm second in command............

When you can spell "command", I've no doubt you'll be first............... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I was multi-tasking at the moment.........

I'm also for the empty chamber. Unless, I know I'm about to meet a bear or moose thats riled up I'll take my chances. Its better than telling somebodies family member " I slipped...."

That may be an assumption....recognizing you have some of same up there too...alder thickets or some such(?) and a fair smattering of open country evidenced by more than a few of your hunting tales and pics. For clarification, as it is often misunderstood terminology in other regions and dialects, "still hunting" does not mean sitting on your azz....down here. It is the stalk hunt that may cover as much as 300 yards in a half day if you're in a hurry...not jesting about distance either, generally hunting with rifles though a shotgun would be more appropriate in truth...buck shot would be an aid in trying to bag something after loading same. I'd be happy to provide board should you wander down this way to test the waters such as they are. I do suspect it's a little different, and am willing to respect your position on the matter. I do not hunt hoofed creatures with partners BTW, 'tis a solitary thing, the still hunt. Long barrels minimize the probability of shooting one's foot, but they are prone to striking limbs on the swing....it's the devil's choice.

I grew up in Florida and I can tell you that Florida doesn't have bush like this, not even close.

Mark
A story I probably told in the linked thread on this subject bears repeating, especially to guides. Had a client that refused to hunt with an empty chamber. I told him fine, but I look down the barrel one time and he plays by my rules. Took minutes before I shoved his hot tube out of my face and told him to unload.

He refused and demanded another chance. I was younger then and complied. Minutes later I shoved his barrel away and told him we were done. Went up to the strip and placed a pick-up sign. When the guide showed up I explained the situation and told him we were not compatible and I would not guide him.

Guide explained things to the guy and asked him to do it my way for his benefit. He ended up shooting a black bear, moose and caribou with me... With an empty tube. He stiffed me on a tip and there was plenty o' tension.

A year plus later I received a letter from the guy with a very generous tip. In the letter he explained how he had always done things and how he had always practiced "perfect muzzle control." How he was in control and knew EXACTLY what was going down all the time.

When he got home he went back to his old ways but had been given a wake-up and started watching those around him. he said it took quite a while before he really got scared and realized what he was really doing. He said watching one of his boys with a hot tube bent over looking for blood with his other son standing over a hot tube was what did it for him.

He said he still thinks I am a prick for the way I handled his delicate feelers, but thanked me just the same. He no longer hunts with a hot tube...
art

come pheasant hunting with me and i'll show you a reason.....

What type of rifle do you use for pheasant hunting?

One goes in the chamber as soon as I set foot out of the truck, or house, whichever it may be. It doesn't get unloaded until I get back at the truck or house. I mostly hunt in Mississippi and I'd say 98.9% of all the guys do the same as me. I've hunted Alaska a couple of times, once jumping a small grizzly out of a thicket a few yards away. I can't imagine running around in bear country with an unloaded rifle. If someone doesn't like my rifle being loaded I'll explain my reasoning and politely decline to unload it. If they insist, then one of us will have to leave the hunting party. I have the same thought process with my pistols around the house, if it's within reach then it's got a round in the chamber. An unloaded gun is just useless weight, and even worse it will get you into trouble because of that split second thought of "do I need to put a round in the chamber or not". During that time the trophy of a lifetime has gotten away, or worse, the thug coming after you has gained the upper hand.

My basic rule is that if the gun is within reach then it's loaded, if it's locked up in a safe or in a case then it's unloaded, no in between.

NEF's I'd be for guessing........grins

I'll bet scope covers give you fits also........

Sitting in a stand where you might not see a deer until its within 40 yds...you have to hunt with one in the pipe. When leave the truck I have one in the pipe...I unchamber to climb a stand...thats it.

Sittin in a stand I can savy it, climbing with another fella at 10K feet in the steep and deep I can't.

Like I said b4 this is gonna come down a geography thing.

Mark D

Still Hunting is what I know best. Growed up doing it and ain't quit yet.

I call it Sneak and Peek..................

If I am hunting alone, have one in the chamber. Unload as required by terrain etc. If in group, lead guy usually has one up the spout, remainder no chambered rounds (group is hiking into hunting area, not group/party hunting). Style of hunt tends to determine how I carry. Hunt with a very select group and we have worked out the rules. As for if a on a guided hunt, never had that kind of money.
I live on the prairie but, hunt all over Alberta.

It simply comes down to safety and Geography is moot.

If someone can't operate an arm enroute to shoulder,they oughtta stick with Tiddlywinks...................

What I meant by geography is more along the lines of what part of the world do people hail from and not in terms of releaf. My point about the geography like I said earlier is that I am for guessing that the fellas that live in the close tight country (Minne, Pa, Cheesehead land and such) are gonna be for running one up the tube.

Those out west, southwest, northwest are not gonna be as apt to do so.

I know what I am gonna do and am only guessing about the others. What they choose do on their own and away from me is their choice.

Mark D

Quit using them after about a month of owning my first pair, they're pretty much useless.

Amazing how things make sense....................

You know I've found the very same thing to be true when the gun aint on the hill.......grins

Good for keeping the dust off the glass however.

One in the chamber unless in treachorous terrain. I felt quite pleased to have two guides in Alaska tell me to go ahead and chamber a round for the rest of the hunt when they saw how I handled my rifles after a day afield with me. I had complied witht thier rule of an empty chamber without complaint up until invited to do otherwise. Could have been a bit of proffesional courtesy there, too. Was also sent out to hunt Brown bear with closest support help (guide) quite a long ways off. We require an empty tube of our Africa Clients until stalking close to the quarry but we carry one in the spout as we are the first line of defense in the event of an animal ambush. Here we have a case of geopraphy dictating decorum but not for the reasons first supposed.

Could see the scope cap comment coming 10miles out.........

Everybody did...............(grin)

I've been flagged hundreds of times. In the military, at work and hunting. This year a cop in our party flagged me bad right in front of his cop father. I ducked under his barrel the first time and less than a minute later when he did it again, I pipped off. The younger cop said "don't worry it's unloaded." I said "every gun is loaded." In a slightly pissed off maner. Everything was dead silent, till the dad cop, his departments main pistol instructor said, doing that will get you kicked off any LE range. Most the party was around watching, mostly cops, they as seemed to have a little better muzzel control.

The worst weapons handling I have ever been around has been LEO's. No question about it.

They make great video,when they shoot themself in a children's classroom too......................

Last month at a Gunsite course, our instructor told us about an Army study in Iraq. Neglegent discharges with units with required empty chambers in the FOB's (base camps) vs units that stayed hot all the time. The hot FOB's actually had fewer Ned Discharges.

I feel perfectly comfortable around individuals with good weapons handling skills whether loaded or empty. I absolutely have no use for poor weapons handling.

That loser suide his employer (a federal agency) saying after the vidio got out he could no longer work under cover. What a dumb azz.

I dont need a guide and I have one in the pipe. I really dont want to get into it with my guide friends. but as far as I am concerned, guides have pretty much screwed up , North American hunting. .................

I'm no Guide Lover,as all I've seen were clueless/bumbling idiots,motivated solely by jingle.

I take my safety seriously and brook zero [bleep],in that department...................

His comment immediately before the ND was PRICELESS!!!!

Didn't he say something like, "none of you could handle a glock like me because I'm a trained professional.........BANG!!!" The little kid at the end yelling, "put the gun down" left me rolling.

Ain't it amazing the number of folks that get holes put in them by "unloaded" guns?

If you don't carry the same way every time you carry, how do you KNOW your rifle's status?

Sometimes it's hot sometimes it's not; sometimes the safety is on sometimes it ain't; sometimes the pin falls altought it's an impossibility; sometimes the safety is enough..........get my drift? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

They should have fired him and sued him for cost of his wasted training!

Nobody KNOWS a rifle's safety status, unless the action is open. To pretend otherwise, is to invite disaster, IMO. I just treat all firearms as though they are loaded, at all times, regardless of what I THINK I know. Works for me, and I do carry with a round in the chamber in some situations, being very picky about the when and where.

I also put zero trust in the mechanical "safety". An unfortunate choice of terminology, there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I've been hunting and shooting for many years and had never heard of anyone hunting with an empty chamber until that thread a month or so ago. Even had to ask some friends about it...in this area I believe you will search long and hard to find a hunter with an empty chamber. I can see why guides would ask you to hunt empty. I hunted in Wyoming a couple times with a friend and we hunted that way upon his request....guess that was the only time. It makes it a little hard to hunt yotes with the AR...pretty clumsy chambering a round with gloves on and the scope in the way... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> That aside..it's pretty convincing of the safety of hunting with an empty chamber. Stick makes a good point...can't see a problem with chambering a round on the way to the shoulder...

Chambering after spotting game wouldn't always work where I hunt. I have yet to shoot at game over 200 yds. There is just too much noise working a bolt on a calm, quiet day. Add some fog and the noise amplifies. There has been a time or two when deer have turned to look after hearing me exhale.
My preferance is to chamber/safety as sson as it's out of the case. Stays that way until back at camp or getting in a vehicle.

I vary on loaded or unloaded to the situation.

On scope covers, last pair is see through and works great.Can shoot with em as is, or if time allows, flip open. Not complicated but protected.

We are generally in some type of agreement, but you lost me this time. I don't wear a uniform to hunt either, but the guns I have with me at work correlate (at least in my mind) to the guns I have with me when I hunt. I don't cross fences with loaded chambers, I don't climb ladders or scale cliffs with a loaded chamber, but other than that, I hunt with a loaded chamber. I see stick's point that a person should be able to manipulate the action while enroute to the shoulder, and I guess I could do that, but I don't see the point in it. I guess it is just a difference in how we train. Tomato / Tomahto. Keep the muzzle from covereing anything you aren't willing to destroy, and drive on.

I'd second that, and chalk it up to complacency.

Always hunt with round in chamber. Never heard otherwise until a friend went to Colorado, said that's how everyone does it there. Just how I was taught I guess, the muzzle of a gun will get you shot or wooped, loaded or not.

Maybe alot of it has to do with guiding people who don't spend alot of time handling guns properly. Don't know just guessing.

I think you pegged this one Mark. Out west where the ranges are long and the terrain difficult, a loaded chamber can lead to trouble. Once you are in the dark timber and on final approach, a loaded chamber has to be in order just like here in the south where ranges are shorter, no way game's going to stand still and let you slide one in the chamber no matter how quiet you try to be.

When I leave the truck/4 wheeler, etc., I always load one up and on safe, when still hunting. If I'm walking to a shooting house or tree stand for stand hunting, I unload prior to climbing. All of the above of course involves hunting by yourself.

In africa, it varies. If you cut spoor and beging tracking, the chamber's empty (client), but once you get close, it's loaded and safety on and unfortunately the PH has to ensure the client exercises good muzzle control. With buffalo & elephant for example, there's just no way one can wait to the last minute to load up. An empty chamber when hunting DG in thick stuff is foolhardy. I'm sure that goes for bears in the alders of Alaska as well. Loaded chambers over there works as the instances of accidental discharge or deaths in africa during safari are almost unheard of but I'm sure it's happened. jorge

I agree that it is mostly a regional thing.

Went on my first western hunt this year. My buddy and I stepped out of the guide's truck and automatically chambered rounds. That's the way most folks do it here. We had just begun a 1000 yard stalk on lopes. The guide looked very suprised and asked us not to chamber until he gave the signal. "sure buddy, you never gave us that safety talk"

Safety is doing what is necessary to assure nobody gets hurt that day. In the eastern setting you may find your quarry behind the first tree and it is a noise thing.

I feel it's just like our civil laws, if we just inforced/abided by the ones on the books there wouldn't be a problem. Gun on safety, always treated like it's loaded, always pointed in a safe direction with your finger outside the guard, unloaded when not hunting (under roof, along roads, crossing fences, etc.)

I was a safety professional in industry for ten years and feel excessive safety measures can be as misguided. as none at all. Hunting is not like being home hugging your pillow. If you get shot by someone you're hunting with you deserve a dose of the blame. The victum is part of the cause 99% of the time, a statistical fact.

I'm not trying to convert the empty chamber advocates. I'd say "to each his own" on this one. The best one to safeguard your safety is you. Our guide was correct in asking for measures he was comfortable with.

Now real safety is what we'd call an "engineering solution". Bring a rifle that can't be fired, that way you are 1000% sure nobody will get hurt. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Me too. Always. Gotta around here. Not much for open spaces and shots (deer) must be made fairly quickly. Most are under 100 yards and deer have GOOD eyes and hearing. Move the bolt and that deer will be in another county by the time you bring it to your shoulder.. Now, if you're in a camo-blind or similar you may be able to get away with it, but not out in the open.

Yep, "trained professional". He was a fighter, though, was going to keep the class going with a hole in his leg until the kids started protesting........ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hadn't heard he filed a lawsuit. Only in America......

The two above from different posters mirror one another. I shot my rifle 4 times during deer season this year while hunting and killed 4 deer. I never once had one in the chamber and I never once shot one past 75 yards. No problem working the bolt, flip scope covers and taking the shot at 25 yards, 65 yards, and two at 75 yards.

All were looking at me when it happened. Course I've done the same with whitetail in FL, GA, TN, LA so it probably ain't as species and terrian related as some would like to believe.

IME, it depends on how much hunting pressure that specific buck has be subjected to that season.

Most deer will stand there and look at you for a few seconds, trying to figure out what the heck you are. Some will bolt at the first notion you are anywhere close.

A few years back, I was able to sneak to within 50 yards of a blacktail laying in high grass, looking the other way. As I flicked the safety off, he just took off like a bat outta hell. Never even looked back, just hauled arse.

I had the wind in my favor, so I know he didn't smell me, and he damn sure didn't see me.

He was in an area that got a lot of pressure, and I'm sure he was familiar with the sound.

All that said, I'd rather miss a buck, than blow my (or someone else's) head off.

Interestingly last weekend found me in a box blind in central TX appx 100 yards from a feeder. Situations can be different regardless of your thoughts. I usually won't chamber a round till I'm " on stand" regardless of which tree or maybe even box I'm in.... In E TX the brush is so thick that you don't have time to chamber, plus my AR15 makes a bit of noise releasing the charging handle...

Anyway back to the story that shows different sides. In box, buddy decides to shoot a doe. Reaches for rifle, deer haul butt. No shot. Next group comes by, same thing, reaches for rifle, hauls butt. Then stops on top of ridge appx 285, as she turns broadside he starts to squeeze and she runs off.... Next morning still trying. Does come out. Decide which to shoot, grab rifle and as its going out the window, byebye deer. All except one that had to stand and stare a bit longer...

Point being it was botched a few times with a round chambered. Chambering a round would not have slowed things down much, but it would not have created or allowed a shot either.

I"ll add as previously mentioned, lots of times its not chambered till the shot unless its my AR due to noise. Other times though, once I"m set up, its chambered unless its something in wide open spaces like caribou and the like.

Funny that some think its never safe to chamber a round. Is it then safe to chamber it right before shooting really either?

Just cause ya get away with it here and there won't mean it works every time. Either way. Loaded or unloaded you may not get the shot.

Last mention is I'm rarely in bad terrain, most often alone, and very conscious of muzzle control.

One in the pipe always.

But reading thru the postings, I got to thinking about all of the mule deer I shot. In only one case would not having one in the chamber resulted in a lost opprotunity. However I have had several close encounters in which the bucks detected my safety click. There is no way I could have cycled the bolt without blowing the hunt.

When I used to hunt with horses and pack strings, the rifle was NEVER loaded while it was in the scabard. However the magazine was packed full of ammo.

I can see why guides would not be comfortable with someone who they do not know on his backside with a loaded firearm.

Don

What kills me is the guys that say "It can't work here, blah blah blah." Heard the same stuff about still hunting deer in FL, you need to hunt from a stand, blah blah blah.

It may well be the best way to do it in a box blind near a corn feeder, I ain't never hunted that way.

Steel

Of course you wouldn't be suggesting that folks have to hunt your way or not at all....

Actually I grew up without a hunting family. The one that taught me to hunt had done it from a stand(not always a box in early years) since he was a kid. Later on he taught me a bit about still hunting. I got better.

Often times I still hunt from a "blind" of different designs, just because the size of the area requires it. Private land and all....

I love getting out though, without a stand or blind. And just roam, sitting here and there.

I can make sure the safety makes no noise as I slip it off, I cannot totally quietly chamber a round so I do it as I feel that its needed. YMMV as succintly stated.

ya got an open, very open mind when it comes to s#*, keep er open on other venues also.

Now here's a thread that's going nowhere in a hurry.

Same here. I almost aways carry hot. I don't go hot until I reach the area I'm actually hunting in, but when I do I have a hot chamber until I get back to transportation.

Lock, load, place on "Safe", sling it and don't [bleep] with it until you need it.

I think many people overestimate their ability to always have the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, and underestimate the danger of that happening with a loaded gun.

Also interesting that some of the most experienced hunters have the ability to realize they can't always control the muzzle, and hence they are unwilling to keep one in the pipe until absolutely necessary.

Just the simple fact that anything can happen while carrying a gun is enough of a reason for me to carry it unloaded until I need it. There's been a time or 2 where i've tripped or slipped down a hillside and was damn glad the rifle had a clear pipe.

One in the chamber with safety one while in a blind or on a stand.

At all other times with an empty chamber while walking, riding horses, or in a vehicle, or around other people.

I've missed many opportunities as a kid because I had a sling over the shoulder. Don't do that any more, and there will be one in the chamber unless one is in a precarious situation. 1minute

I've never been "used" via empty chamber,but I shoot a fair bit and the rifle ain't unknowed to me........................

Are you a PH in Zim?

Try quietly chambering my 50 beowulf....... No problemo much on the bolt guns. Course some deer may stand at sight and sound. Others are a bit edgy.

Do recall a few really stupid of the muley clan, wherein a wt would have long since vacated. Still think for the most part MT is fine, but for contentious to preach never chamber, a bit out of line, yet only an opinion. I got one of both when it comes to opinions.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In B.C most things happen pretty fast.Wheather calling moose or hunting deer.Also can walk into grizzlies so one in the pipe is better FOR ME.Never know what could happen.Like to be prepared as best I can.

I've Hunted various AR configurations and never could find love.

I view 'em more as a Play Toy................

Alaskan game is like Alaskans, much stupidier than Canadian. Our bears are all cute and cuddly and pose no threat.

Quit trying to spike the ball.

When Hunting/Fishing/Working the ABC's,Kodiak,Afognak and some of the Mainland(Yakutat mainly),I always carried for Brown Bear Protection. That goes back beyond 20yrs.

Never once carried cocked/locked,never once got ate...but things was Sporty more than a few times and the rifle was there at the ready,when I needed it.

Never carried a scattergun either and never a pistol without a rifle in conjunction,after the first time...as that is too Sporty for my tastes.....................

As Clint Smith says, "pistols are for fighting your way to your rifle." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well there's the problem, you just ain't a reasonable man. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just goes to show you one way ain't the only way but I got to ask, has any of you ever missed the opportunity and forgot to unchamber?

[quote] Funny that some think its never safe to chamber a round. Is it then safe to chamber it right before shooting really either?[quote]

Perfect rationalism...

To me...it the most natural of acts,to chamber a round and fire,as opportunity is afforded. If I decline the opportunity,for whatever reason,it's as equally natural to make the rifle safe again,via empty chamber.

'Course I ain't plagued with the malady of walking around with my dick hanging out,after I pizz,because I forgot to holster him.

Am not much into finding difficulty,where there is none..................

All depends what your comfort level is I suppose.I'm most comfortable with one in the pipe.Ain't much that'll change my thinking.

No malice intended here, but I cannot even begin to understand that.

Yea, I'm a bit weird that way.
How many rounds a year do you drive down your bolt guns, all being fairly similar?
How confident does that make you?
Same for the AR, espcially with advent of X bullets and available chamberings running from 22lr to 204 Ruger to 300 RSAUM, to 458/50 cal offerings and in between. It allows it to spread its legs.
Don't own but one AR thats worse than .5 moa for hunting. More than what a few can say for their hunting guns.
When you run 8-10K + rounds a year down a particular gun, it really feels right and handy. Like your spouse. Thats in matches, untold numbers in practice, 22 rounds, dry firing etc... Its great practice too, especially all the 600 and 1000 yard matches won with the AR.

I know ya ain't dissin the gun, I'm just way comfortable with the setup now. Know ya aint stirrin the pot.

If I sold all my comp guns I"d have all bolts setup like yours, then there would be no issue as to what I hunt with. Of course had I taken the easy way to match rifle shooting and used a good bolt gun, I'd be the same way as you also. Bolts are just so easy to use that I wanted more of a challenge and options into more rare badges accumulated.

As mentioned though, have not fired more than one round out of them on and animal as of this writing. Could get by with a #1. Wished I had one too.

Jeff

No malice each to their own.Granted I never had a gun go boom 3 time's either.Thats 3 too many.

what about the poor muzzleloaders?
"ok, mr. deer, you hold still now while i pour the powder, ram the bullet home, replace the ramrod, and cap the nipple ..."

since i normally carry a rifle that has a 3 position bolt locking safety on the tang i find that keeping the chamber loaded doesnt hinder safety.

thanks to SM website for the most accurate description of thier superior safety system.

Been carrying hot since forever. Buds I've been hunting with since age 15 have been doing the same. We never knew not too.


Muzzle and finger control are the best safey. On real steep grades and loose rock I'll pop the bolt.

I grew up out west and everybody I know carries hot. Never knew
some did different till I started reading these post here.

Chamber empty....new to me.

Question for those who carry an empty chamber.

Do you carry empty while on a varmint call?

Not when calling from the truck.........

SU-when I am enroute to the set up you bet I am cold, when I pick my spot then I load and am hot. When done with the sequence I am unloaded and headed back to the truck.

Just my way.

Mark D

How many here at the Campfire carry a M1911 condition 3 (chambered round and safety on) concealed or open and are aginst a rifle with a chambered round in the field? How many here carry and are agianst chambered rounds in the field?
I carry hot and I chamber a round when hunting.

Actually 4H rules, as an instructor, do not rely on safet mechanisms at all. When the range is hot the round is chambered, range cold, open bolt, empty chamber. The safety is not even mentioned. Its all muzzle and finger control as it should be.

Jeff

Apparently your Alaskan Blackies are not much different from our Idaho Mulies.

Our deer might be a bit better trained than yours, cause often ours even wait for you to dismount the truck, the 4 wheeler, or the horse. Ain't hardly even sportin? Is it?

Can not imagine taking time to chamber a round being much of a hindrance.

Is safariman a PH in Zim........?

Outfitter and #2 while on the safaris he sets up in Zim.

I carry empty tube. Thing is i'm a RH person shooting lefty with RH bolts. Never had a problem getting the rifle loaded before i got the rifle to my shoulder. Even being handicapped the way i am....

I've got one in the pipe about 1/2 the time when walking flat trails to/from my stand(s), or thru the woods when "stalking" ... can't really say what drives me to put one in, or leave it empty ... guess it's kinda based on gut ...

everytime else, chamber is empty ...


When I was in Wyo with Jamison, it was my first experience with "western hunting" out in the great wide open, if you will ... to say that hunting there is a complete 180 from hunting down here is the understatement of the year ... Anywho, while there, I only chambered a round one time, and it was when I was about to make a shot that I ended up deciding against ... all other times the chamber was empty ...

I can easily see how hunting in that environment makes it "easy" to keep the chamber empty ... I can also easily see how hunting down here makes it "easy" to want to keep the chamber hot... Neither way is right or wrong ... and I can't argue that it's safer to have an empty chamber ... also can't argue that a deer (or other head of game) is worth the possibility of serious bodily harm or death ... but it is what it is, and sometimes the chamber is hot when no game is in the crosshairs ... just the way it is ...

WGM;

Quit making sense.

sorry ... bad habit? .......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Something like that... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Suppose I come form a slightly different angle...

Grew up hunting whitetails in Ohio, shotgun only. Basically we hunt in recently clearcut area and hunt them like rabbits, jump shooting or shooting at pushed deer always had one in the chamber as did everyone else. Never considered doing things any different until I started reading here.

Just spent two days hunting with my blackpowder rifle, loaded her when I left the house in the morning. Thinking through it I can't think of any other way to do it, I'm certainly not a speedy black loader. The woods were dry and with all the leaves down, every time you took a step it sounded like you were walking on a bag of potato chips.

When I've hunted out west (twice) I went hot also, just habit. Could have easily been cold though, as distances were considerable longer then back home. We all found mulie hunting in the west considerably easier then hunting back home.

I'm in Law Enforcement like CrimsonTide, and certainly wouldn't consider carrying my duty weapon with chamber unloaded.

I don't think bolt gun hunting with an empty chamber would slow me down any, and wouldn't mind doing it in the least bit if that made folks around me feel better.

I'm just getting into still hunting aka. sneak and peek and empty chamber makes a lot of sense.

WTF is #2?

For that matter, what is Outfitter over there....?

Not the PH, but the #2 NIC (_______ in charge) on the safari.

I.e., one of the white guys with the BIG damn gun backing things up on things that bite.

Gotcha, thanks....

The booking agent is playing PH.....

Reckon I would too.

What kind of license does that take?

Ask him. Mark's a damn nice guy, and knows his schit re: Africa. I doubt that there's any "play" involved; considering the amount of time he spends in Africa each year, and that time is "out there".

I can't like No. 1's for Hunting,for the same reason I can't like B-78's and preferred a rear-grip XP to a mid-grip,for Hunting(though mid-grips shoot softer).

Makes no good sense to me,to traipse around cocked/locked.

I've killed some superlative Beasts,put others on superlative Beasts,been with pards and stumbled on superlative Beasts together,have photographed superlative Beasts,video'd superlative Beasts and by and large have had an inordinate run of rather good fortune...in the regard of superlative Beasts.

Point is,none of them Critters is worth an "ouch" or worse. Carrying an empty tube,has NEVER cost me opportunity at any Critter,much of that due to being thorough with bino's,the balance due to being a whole lot good with a rifle.

I've spent a great portion of my life Outdoors,due to vocation and the pursuits of happiness. Never had a lick of trouble filling tags or knocking fish in the head,but I take them things a touch seriously.

I'm unwilling to roam stupidly,under hypothesized pretense...when it's plum easy to conduct that business otherwise.

'Course I packed/flew ALOTTA guys out of the Woods,that were full of similar notions/work habits mentioned herein and I managed 20yrs unscathed. Them flukes is damned few. Never not taken my safety seriously,nor that of others in proximity...and them steps do not undercut the fun of the venture,nor the production of the machine.

WORST case scenario? Mebbe when I'm 103,some Deer will beat me to the draw....BFD....................

Ooops...forgot.



Managed to catch hell outta the Fish this evening and obviously,the striker ain't cocked and no,there ain't one in the tube under the decompressed spring.

Didn't carry the Xmas blade in my mouth,Swashbuckler Style either,enroute to the creek....................

Damn those have been nice cutts.....

Nice, but cops carry their guns cocked and locked, why not in the woods................grin

Lunker Rainbow there,managed some outlandish Cut's too.

It was weird,I'll give you the skinny,at work.................

Ah, I wasn't paying attention...looks leopard-ish....

Actually been in the presence of a .270 win. discharged via brush hang up on the trigger....it was adamently insisted upon that the safety was "ON".

That's been a lotta years ago and the thought of huntin' with that DUDE again taint crossed my mind since......

Not bein' on point that day payed off hugely.

'Humper remains King,for the Leopard Cut. Baby Bean is the DollyMeister. Am thinking the 'Bow pictured is up there,easily,as far as Winter pursuits go.

Gonna try hard to dredge Chromer Hen Steelies in the AM...weather permitting....................

I have always hunted with a loaded chamber. The chamber is loaded in the pistol in my pocket right now. The chambers are loaded in my shotgun when I am hunting and so are my rifles.

Of course one must keep track of things and have a good safety. Some guns don't.

Here in CT the #1 rule highlighted in the game manuals is no hunting withing 500 ft of a building. This is very restrictive and 500 feet is a long way. I always unload my gun on the way out in particular. Thats when they get you at the vehicle.

If the above ain't reason enough for you guys to convert, don't know what is........

Firearms are involved in 0.65% of accidental deaths nationally, and in 1% among children. Most accidental deaths involve, or are due to, motor vehicles (40%), poisoning (17%), falls (15%), suffocation (5%), drowning (3%), fires (3%), medical mistakes (2%), environmental factors (1%), and bicycles and tricycles (1%)

Every argument for empty chambers is valid. That said, I'll carry an empty chamber when you quit driving. ........ grin

You can't save the world from it's self.

Empty chambers is 100%.

If nuttin' is in the pipe,nuttin' can happen.

Them is great "odds",IMHO..................

You sit around tappin away on the Campfire, with a loaded pistol in your pocket? I'll guess your either at work or need to get out a little more often...........

Bill ... pick on someone your equal ...

I hate to see unfair fights ......... (grin)

Thanks Guy's This has been an eye opener for me.
I was on both sides of the fence. Now I have seen the light, why take the chance.
For now on I will be Hunting with an empty tube.
Thanks Keep-um Safe

Lets be sure to bring this up again in six months.

Or next week................

When I hunt alone, always chambered unless hiking in the dark.

When with others empty chamber until a track is cut or game sighted. I always communicate a hot chamber to a hunting partner.

All firearms are always treated as loaded regardless.

And be sure to see if your pards are following with you by looking for them through the rifle scope above the hot chamber. That completes the scenario, IMO.

If you can't see them through the scope,simply offer a few "sound shots" through the brush,to determine their wherabouts...........................

You know sound shots always work best via see-thru-em scope mounts.

Better from the hip,because the audio canals aren't as compromised................

Sitka,
Reading your post to Mark. Good advice. We all need to be frank about safety and I politely mention any barrel that passes with me lined up. Safety is contagious.
I'm in the Southeast and usually carry chambered if I am hunting alone. There is no way a guy could get a round chambered in the stillness of southern still hunts on quiet days.
Here's another thought. The old African hunters (Hemingway and Rouark) talked about chambering a round and closing the chamber uncocked. There are several ways that could be done depending on the rifle used. The idea was that they could quietly lift and lower the bolt (obviously were not pulling/pushing a cocking pin) to go live. What are your thoughts - is it rifle brand dependent, acceptable, unacceptable?

My father carried that way and for a while I did too... Then I got spooked about the pin against the primer under pressure and dropped that idea completely.

I was raised to hunt hot and only came to my senses after I started guiding.
art

Lost a friend from Fairbanks to sound shots when he was on Afognak about 20 years ago. Apparently he was gut-shot and took a few days to die.

Glad that's not on my conscience.

Have you ever considered the consequences of a rifle so carried being rapped sharply on the butt plate. Perhaps your feet go out from under you on a slippery slope.

I have seen folks use the butt of the rifle to break their fall many times as their own butt crashed to the ground.

I have also seen the firing pin on an uncocked bolt rifle compress the spring and rebound into the primer and discharge when slammed into the ground.

The only safe rifle is one with nothing in the chamber to go bang. All mechanical devices are prone to failure.

They probably had Steyrs, so it couldn't happen...........

can anyone link me to a news article where any hunter has ever been injured by an accidental discharge, while in the field, and alcohol or drugs weren't involved???

Glennallen when his son's "empty" gun went bang as they were either loading or unloading a canoe. Wouldn't want my Daddy's death on my conscience either.

I like to call those events negligent discharges.

Mo betta accurate name.

I'll see if I can find a link for proof.

Another tragic accident involving a gun with an "empty" chamber. This kind of stuff happens all too often, sadly. As I said earlier, you can't know that the chamber is empty unless the action is open. You're only ASSuming it's empty, otherwise, which quite predictably leads to a false sense of security, which often leads to sloppy gun handling, and then tragedy.

No "Empty Chamber" mantra, and no mechanical safety device will ever be as effective in preventing accidents as will proper gun handling, good judgement, and full-time muzzle control. Carrying empty is fine, as long as the gun is still treated as though it has a loaded chamber and a broken "safety" mechanism! That would be my last 2 cents.

Happens all too often? Nope... happens? Yup. Often? Nope.

Kinda silly thread actually.. I put one in the chamber to go pheasant hunting, don't think I'd get too many birds without. That's a lot more dangerous style of hunting than the typical rifle hunting.

40,000+ people take to the fields here every year for deer season, and the only accidents I know of or have read about are accidents involving stupidity. Leaning a gun against a fence while crossing it took the leg of a fellow student in high school.. hunters shooting without positively identifying what they're shooting at.. treating the gun as if it isn't loaded even if you know it "isn't" is the rest. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I'm about 1000% more likely to die an a car accident on the way to my hunting spot as opposed to being hit by an accidental discharge. Doesn't mean I'm going to take a bicycle to my hunting grounds cuz driving is too dangerous..

Basic hunter safety.. hunting, even WITH one in the chamber is far safer than almost any other sport. Fishing in a boat? Not a chance.. about 100 times more likely to get hurt there. Football? Basketball? Baseball? Nope.. hunting is safest.

Put your risks into perspective and live life.

By the way, I don't blame guides for wanting clients to keep the chamber empty. Too many "city hunters" with their Walmart rifles who don't understand the concept of muzzle control. But a good guide I would hope could size his client up before leaving the staging area and work with the experienced hunters.

Agree with you Calhoun. With a rifle when I step out of my transportation the chamber is loaded and the safety is on. Stays that way until I go to get back in.

With a shot gun the same. Now if I am with a bunch of people bird hunting and we all gang up I always break the action (double gun shooter) when we are standing around jawing.

Never been on a guided hunt per se and probably never will be on one. Was I, then I'd do my best to play by the guides rules but we would have an understanding before the problem came up.

Been wadeing through this whole deal.

What gets me is some that will brag about drinking enough alcohol to solidify the liver of a bull elephant and evidently don't have enough sense to get in out of the freezing rain. Some will willingly pilot three thousand pound vehicles over bad roads or will get out in a stupid boat in water you can't live five minutes in should you fall in.

Yet the though of a rifle with a loaded chamber gives them the screaming fantods.

Seems sort of ridiculous to me.

BCR

If you watch a juggler flipping blades or even running chain saws do you think it's safe? The answer is yes, by definition, cause he's performed the act thousands of times without injury. Look at other jugglers doing the same with the same results because they do to their training and have strict observance of the hazard -- More evidence it is "safe".

Safety does not always mean total absence of risk. It is a relative term dependent on multiple factors. Is an empty chamber more safe? Yes, but the act of adding layers of safety measures does not make others inadequate.

If one is not comfortable with his personal gun handling abilities (+ those around) then he should carry empty or go for some additional training. I certainly would before I attempted the above juggling.

When someone gets shot from an accidental discharge the one in the pipe will likely be far down the prioritized list of multiple causes. So far down that it it will never gain universal acceptance as a mitigating safety measure. This is my opinion after having done hundreds of accident investigations. Properly done, any one safety measure is sufficient!

And what about muzzleloaders? Great point. I wouldn't want to be around one of those. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> A flinter can even fire without priming powder!

I'm reacting to the attitude that's coming across on the part of the empty chamber folks saftier than thou pontifications. I'll say again, "to each his own". I once met a guy that wore two rubbers each time out. Well, that's certainly safer but most of the world considers one good enough cause you're more likely to enjoy the experience -- at minimal risk. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Had been sitting quietly by wondering if the shotgun thing would be brought up.

Could get by with it on doves probably. If sitting and waiting. Walking birds up would get tricky but probably still workable. Not that I"ve had a problem with shotguns being loaded.

And as mentioned, my Kimber is hot all the time. Ain't much use in carrying it unloaded. Course I could probably get away with it in a scenario and still come out on top, but the element of surprise is gone. Same with animals, chambering alerts them if close. I prefer them to never know I was there... Again differing hunting situations have called for different answers, much like choice of weapon/caliber/method...

great point, ironbender... and kinda reinforces the point i want to make...
"in the field, hunting" does not include getting into or out of a vehicle, onto or off a horse, into or out of a boat, cleaning guns in camp, etc.....

never, ever heard of an injury due to accidental discharge while "in the field, hunting"....
not one... not ever.....

guys have gotten excited, assumed they were shooting at game and killed or injured others (see dick cheney)... also happened here, this deer season, just 35 miles or so from the house when an excitable/ ignorant would be hunter killed a man and his dog who were out for a walk... was NOT an accidental discharge... he emptied his shotgun..... john w

Hey Jeff, tell you whut, we'll make all 'em empty chamber boys happy as clams. Next time you want to go huntin' holler at me. I go along with you and we can do a Barney Fife. I'll hand you a bullet to load when you think you might need one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


BCR

Hope Dick Cheney is with you...........

so let me get this right...
empty chamber w/ the safety off so the bolt can be opened. you see the animal, judge him, decide your going to shoot, work the bolt closing it on a live round w/ the safety off and shoot.
so if you dont get the shot or change your mind you do what? open the bolt and close on a empty chamber?
cant see how thats safer than a round in the chamber on safe, but maybe its different where you can see till the next county.
here , in the 100 acre woods, shots dont wait for you.

you're a moron ...

first of all, there are a LOT of rifles who's safety system allows the bolt to be operated while in "safe" mode ... (please note that I put the word safe in quotation marks, signifying that it's nothing more than a name) ...

Second, if you have any clue about anything firearms related, you'd know that the OTHER way of doing it is that you can leave your safety in the "fire" position, cycle the bolt w/out pushing a round into the chamber, then hold the trigger while you close the bolt, which will disengage the sear so that the the striker falls and remains "uncocked" ... what this does, is makes it a LOT more difficult for the bolt to open if the handle is bumped, since it will be cocking the rifle on open ...

The fact that you so heavily rely on, and trust your rifle's safety mechanism... regardless of how failsafe you think it is ... just shows that you are an infant in your understanding of firearms and firearms safety ...

Stop being nice....

this is a family oriented board ...

now if we were on SH, I'd have penned my response differently, rest assured on that ...

Never yet met the man who could exercise perfect muzzle control as he suddenly finds both feet level with his belly button and his ass in the snow, nor the hunter who could predict who he would flag with his slung weapon when he trips over a tree root.

Are there any here who would make the claim to have never stumbled, tripped, slipped, or fallen with a rifle on their person?

Any here that would claim to be so talented as to exercise perfect control of the weapon while engaged in such acrobatics?

An empty chamber can never kill your hunting buddy!

I have already related where an empty chamber has prevented at least two accidental discharges in my time in the woods. Two time that I have found the safety bumped to the off position and the hammer dropped on the empty chamber. Sure, there is a good chance the bullet would have harmlessly spun off into space in both cases. But with an empty chamber, I did not have to worry about that chance.

Around here there is a big difference between pheasant hunting and rifle hunting. I never had to climb 3000 feet in five miles while I was pheasant hunting, nor have I pheasant hunted in snow 12 inches deep. If I were to shotgun hunt in these conditions, I'd quickly learn to leave the chamber empty there too.

But then I am the kind of guy who has gone home and slept in the same bed with the same woman every night for the last twenty five years so I don't have to worry about rubbers.

I never did need to expose myself or others to inordinate risks to get a thrill.

But dude, a deer might get away............grin

and theres alot that dont.
typical of this forum you assume too much. like that everyone shoots a bolt gun.
wake up. the world is not just about what you prefer. you expect guys who use automatics to hunt w/ an empty chamber? what about ruger #1's.

A Browning 78 or 85 can be carried one up the spout,hammer down.The Browning has a bit of a tough time going off,unless you at least pull the hammer back...........

I'd think you'ld know this-you've owned a couple.Doesn't fit into your argument though.

Why don't ya'll just say "I don't like to hunt with one in the chamber" and leave it at that?Don't have to make a case for it.I hunt with one in the chamber.

WB.

"i like to hunt with one in the chamber"
but then again im not a real hunter. ask the two does that fell this morning at sunup.
perhaps if my rifles were a hodge podge of mixed up parts that i called "custom" i wouldnt trust one up the pipe either.

Some of us don't even hunt with rifles...............

I'd say my odds would be greatly decreased,by wandering the woods with my Contender empty.

WB.

I went back and read some more.

Holy Mackel, Kingfish. You empty chanber boys done made me so afraid of my rifles, and so afraid of the woods, and so afraid of other people in the woods and so afraid of my ownself and so afraid I might fall down go boom that I have decided to give up hunting. Going to take up kniting. But wait, I might stab myself with a knitting needle.

Maybe tiddly winks.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BCR


BCR

you'll shoot your eye out...

Now you got me skeered again. Do you tiddly before you wink or wink before you tiddly?

I am so confused <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


BCR

i wear steel gauntlets earplugs and a welders mask when i tiddlly wink.
for the children.

Can't beat having Cohiba on your side. Where's Don.........

Cohiba ... again, you fail to see the point(s) I'm making, even though I'm putting them right in your face, in plain english, with no hidden meanings or need to "read between the lines" ...

you said something about having to have your rifle on "fire" mode when you cycle your round into the chamber ... I rebutted that by saying that there are a LOT of rifles that allow the bolt to operate while the safety is engaged ... somehow you forgot what you'd said (which is what I was replying to) and it was YOU who ASSUMED that I meant ALL rifles, even though I simply said "a LOT" ... again, thanks for showing your lack of intelligence ...

next, I offered a solution to closing the bolt and releasing the striker so that the bolt handle would not be as easy to lift, keeping accidental bolt openings from happening when carrying your rifle ... but since you didn't comment on that, I can only assume that you didn't understand at all what I said there ... perhaps this time you'll get it?

I've never said that a hot chamber is off limits except when you're right about to make a shot ... I just prefer to not carry one in the pipe unless I feel there's a very good reason to need one in there ...

Bottom line ... This isn't about muzzle control, or finger control, etc ... it's about a mechanical device called a safety ... what you are completely failing to understand, is that you are probably the only one here that puts 100% faith into a rifle's mechanical safety device ... you go on and on about how there's no way your Steyr rifles can go off unless you actively decide to pull the trigger ... and frankly, that's a bunch of bull crap ... djpaintless has some of the same make/model Steyr rifles as you, and proved that all of them can go off without wanting them to ...

I'll grant that the frequency of occurrence is low. What bothers me is the magnitude of the consequence.

WGM,
You hunt with an empty chamber.Cohiba hunts with a loaded chamber.Why not just leave it at that?So what if he doesn't do it your way?The guy hunts several states away from you-I don't think you're going to get hit by an accidental discharge.

WB.

I think there are a few examples of accidental discharge on this thread.......

that depends on who you talk to.


there are more rifles that are not bolt actions at all


you should keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.

I rely on 30 years of hunting and shooting, thats why i shoot the safest rifle action avail. on the market today.

WB ... you're right, basically ... and frankly, I can deal (and am dealing) just fine with that ...

however, I'm just having a hard time letting go of the fact that Cohiba continues to go on and on about how rifle's safety design and implementation is beyond reproach, when djpaintless has proven that it's not ... not to mention the overall governing fact that any mechanical device and (and will) fail at some point in time ...

at least Cohiba says he practices muzzle control and finger control ... yet it's hard to believe that when he puts so much faith in the safety system of the Steyr SBS rifles ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You guys that don't hunt with one in the chamber better not hunt with reloads either as it could be a bomb waiting to go off if you flubed up. Course you will say that could never happen due to you being careful.

can't know who's goat you're trying to get, but I don't think you'll find any of the handloaders here saying that can't happen ... then again, it could happen with any loads ... the factories have made mistakes too ...

you wanna take things over the top, all of us should lock ourselves in circular padded rooms with 24 hour surveillance in order to keep ourselves from being injured ...

of course, all we're talking about is adding yet another level of safety to our hunts by not keeping a chambered round unless it's "necessary" ... I realize as well, that what is "necessary" to each individual is relative ... but what's not relative, is our ability to rely on a rifle's mechanical safety ...

you wanna carry a rifle with what is supposed to have the best safety there is? Fine, I commend you ... however, relying on it anymore than you would rely on a rifle with no safety at all, is what I have a problem with ...

when I am on the stalk-yes, there is in one in the pipe. when in camp on the river where there is other boaters and floaters and such yes. Damn goofing crazy alcohol induced drug minded idiots are not to be trusted. Hand guns are loaded too-figure if you carry may as well be ready

enjoy life.

One goes in the chamber when I exit the vehicle or camp. It stays there until I either get back to the vehicle or camp, take my animal, or am working through rough terrain or in the dark.

I typically hunt alone, or with my boy. I've stressed muzzle awarness from day 1 with him, and it's second nature for him now. I recently re-watched his elk hunt video with an eye toward muzzle awareness and gun safety. Kid did outstanding, I was proud at how effortless his gun handling and safety seemed to be, and I'd place this kid's gun handling and safety above the vast majority of adults I know. He can hunt with a loaded chamber around me anytime. My life long best buddy, on the other hand, has been asked more than once not to do so. Some just weren't trained the right way from the start, and I value my life more than to participate in OJT so to speak with someone who can't handle one safely. The middle of a hunt isn't the place to be learning such things.

It's my contention that someone that is safe and has acute muzzle awarness is far safer with one in the pipe than most with an empty chamber. You only need to watch one of the many hunting shows or visit a gun shop to know that.

"Djpaintless" said it,so that prooves it........... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

WB.

are you really that dense? In another thread, this entire thing about the Steyr SBS thing came up, and dj took some of his rifles and did the "drop test" with them, and all of them went off inadvertently ...

point being, the system is not 100% failsafe ... but if you wanna go join Cohiba's camp by believing that there are some mechanical devices that can't/won't fail, by all means, go join him ...

remeber when glocks came out and all those people were talking about how unsafe they were?
the world is round, welcome aboard.

Cohiba ...

I'm not much into sidearms, however I'm aware enough of the Glock and it's design to know what you're talking about ...

however, I again state the same thing ... and that is, despite how good a safety system is, it can never be 100% failsafe ... and that includes Glocks and Steyrs ...

Did I say mechanical devices can't/won't fail?

Can you read?

WB.

jst so you know, im not advocating running around the woods, jumping over boulders and sliding down cliff faces w/ the safety off on a loaded bolt gun.
im saying that the SBS has the most advanced and the safest designed system availible on the open market to date and i have no problem keeping it loaded and ready when its on my person or in my reach.
you want to hunt w/ an empty chamber have at it. dont pretend that its what everyone should do. we can think for ourselves and we dont need someone telling up our rifles are not safe or the right caliber or the right stock or bbl length ect.
The range instructors at Gunsite must be morons as well.

full magazine, and hammer down on a cold pipe when walking about. w\When sitting a spell i load the pipe, also unload just before i get up to move. I cant fathom many situations where the 2 seconds it takes me to load will cost me an animal, but i hunt very open lands and always have. i also insisit anyone hunting along with me do the same.

If hunting another guys set up will let him run his iron his way but the first hint i may look at the end of his barrel adn we are gnna have a chat. if he dont see it my way and unload i hunt elsewhere

i dont care if someone swears the rifle is unloaded, clip out w/ bolt in thier pocket...
dont point the GD at me or we are gonna have a problem.

Boggy, I'll send you some ammo next week so I dont' have to bring it along, then just pick you up on the way......

Way way off topic, and it just got to me now after reading all these posts... I am about tired of reading Coops ramblings..... I'd have to say that the old fool never shot very far if accuracy was not important.... sorry I'm grouchy about that sig line right about now.

Jeff

Idaho

Funny you relate to the shotgun vs rifle thing. I think your scenario betwixt is exactly what a bunch of us are saying. Such that each situation demands thought and exercising of whats needed to maintain safety. Much like folks that carry sidearms for protection. I do so when bowhunting in certain areas and ain't no way to carrry them but ready.

Same goes with the other differences. In good hunting area, no danger of terrain issues, or "standing" its chambered. When traveling and in dangerous areas, even if in good game area, its empty.

But the bottom line here is no one will convince the others to change, other than calling a few un needed names along the way.

Interestingly over the years otehrs have had issues, you haev even mentioned about finding the safety off and teh striker down. Meaning sear engagement is way to thin. I've hunted quite a bit with chambered rounds. Sitting and waiting, still hunting etc... never had an issue yet. No AD's. Of course i was taught to ignore the safety and rely on myself and when to chamber and not.

If I miss out, Happy New year to all! And a safe coming season full of success.

Jeff

I'm enjoying the arguement,that some stupid sonofabitch,is soooooo uncoordinated,that he must waltz around hot...in order to connect a Tag to a Critter.

May as well send 50,000 straight razors to Jerry Lewis,as gifts for his kids.

People crack me up.....................

Live rounds under the hammer,do not soothe my senses,thus the mention of the '78 and the obvious conclusion,that I've had a few of them.

Cain't like it,even a little.

Been knowed to carry 5 in a wheelgun,transfer bars be damned.

I came outta the egg,with all the ventilation required and am not entertaining new holes being added to the fray.......................

Should this be a matter of personal prefreence?? 'long as everyone is safe...no overbearing egotist should make the rules on loaded or not...just my .02...FWIW

I'm enjoying the arguement,that some stupid sonofabitch,is soooooo uncoordinated,that he must waltz around with an empty chamber...in order not to shoot himself in the wang.

Empty is an absolute and I can like them odds,heap big much........................

I always have one in the pipe when I'm hunting, unless I'm on the rare guided hunt. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do the same,but it's out of habit rather than out of saftey concerns.

I've logged many a mile in the woods with a round in the chamber,and never once feared I was going to shoot myself.I even had one spectacular,unexpected fall in easy country (triped on a root sticking out of the ground),where I landed flush on my rifle,with ALL of my weight on it.That was an O/U with TWO rounds under the hammer,and it never went off-it didn't even knock it off zero...........

I've had exactly two accidental discharges in the woods while hunting.Both were with 22s,and both were when I was a kid (6 maybe?).Both were due to carelessly having my finger on the trigger while carrying the gun,and both times the bullet went harmlessly into the air.Took twice,but I learned my lesson.

WB.

Not pickin on ya, Bandit, but using you as an example.


That's why I call then negligent discharges. The rifle fire unintentionally, but to my way of thinking it's not an accident per se.

An accident is unavoidable. A higher level of safety would virtually avoid this type of discharge.

Any examples of true accidents?

Accident (noun)-an unplanned and unfortunate event that results in damage, injury, or upset of some kind

I was 6 years old.Cut me some slack.

WB.

I read that you were 6 at the time and that's why I prefaced my post as I did. It wasn't meant as criticism and apologise you read it as such.

Your adult supervision could have made the situation safer, IMO.

The old man couldn't keep his eye on me every second in the woods.And I'm pretty sure I was on my own,when the second one happened.Don't really remember though............that was a LONG time ago!

WB.

Some folks is luckier at Russian Roulette,than others. Some folks simply don't play and dat's ME.

I see Life as a series of events,some of which just happen,others that were/are far more predictable.

There's noone that has more fun than me...every thing I do and every move I make,is about fun,because I simply believe there's but 2 choices in this World and that is to simply laugh,or cry. Anyone who knows me,can attest to it,as I'm a simple animal that's all about laughs.

That being said,I'm an astute purveyor of both "luck" and "odds". I'll never foolishly cast away either,to deal in unknowns ala Roulette. I don't need that kind of excitement,in my Life.

An empty barrel is an absolute and with so many things beyond one's control,I'm a firm believer in grabbing ALL the absolutes available and hording them.

I can't shift my [bleep] into a low enough IQ,to think any other way,in regards to my safety and those around me.

That it ain't a concession to Tag Punching,reiterates the obvious and I'm all about frosting the cake and eating it too.........................

You got another Toldja-so voucher coming this evening, will post pics in a few hours, you'll see..........

....Hey, maybe big brother ought to legislate something here to save the poor ignorant rednecks from carrying loaded rifles while hunting..Heck if there were a LAW it'd solve it all! Maybe something like the firearm and ammo could never be closer in proximity to each other than 6 feet. That way NOBODY would ever get shot! 'Accidentaly' or otherwise...Insurance rates would drop too,deer and game would poliferate,eco-whackos,and the brady bunch would be ecstatic,birdwathers would be thrilled with the more silent woods,ect..ect..ect.......... REALLY this whole debate seems a bit counter productive for HUNTERS to engage each other with!......After all, statistics show that hunting is safer,in terms of injuries per participants, than is football,driving a car,swimming, soccer,or even ping pong!

Mark Dobrenski nailed it,most Western folks chamber empty,us Dixie folks....allways loaded.

I can't see a bright side,to folks being shot accidentally.

Flipside...I'm all about some NEEDING shot,but that's a seperate discussion.....................

the above post, coupled with my glass of scotch, is a recipe for laughter ... thanks.

Stick,
You do your thing,and I'll do mine.

I'll die one day,but odds are it won't be from an accidental gunshot wound while hunting,from my gun.I'll likely get ran over going to the grocery store.That's how most people die "accidently".


WB.

Dixie deer and empty chamber before "go" time



And another Dixie deer with empty chamber before "go" time..



Oops, another, even forgot to charge the magazine on this one...

....Yeah it's mighty sad when people die in whatever manner, and it ain't jolly when we stub a toe either. But beyond taking safe gun handling to heart, "individualy" as free Americans, i'd be cautious about taking such wrangling amoung ourselves,beyond sane reason. The problem is it doesn't stop with seat belts,or motorcycle helmets (areas of MUCH GREATER statistical danger to life and limb than is hunting,and we're "under the gun" from many folks,not just behind our own guns)...Such harping,as has many times been proven, often leads down the road to" las" protecting us from ourselves,at the cost of PRECIOUS freedom. We'd all be safer locked away in padded cells,and many of our legislators would be happy to do it to those of us who carry guns or hunt,just give them grist for thier mill!....By the way(again statiscaly) MANY times more hunters are killed falling from tree stands than by being shot. Here in Georgia we haven't had a hunter killed by being shot in years now,and we field approx 250-300,000 hunters each season in our thick woods.The mass of these fellows carry loaded guns when they hunt too,that is to say, loaded at all times while hunting in the field,other than when pulling an empty chambered gun into a tree stand.......Anoughter thing ,in Georgia,it isn't just a shame when a hunter is shot! It's a felony crime of negligent discharge of a lethal firearm..

I'm incapable of embracing sheer stupidity..................

i see another 25,000 posts without convincing anyone of any thing much.....

Take a Poll.

Laffin'....................

Get out of truck, load rifle, hunt, get back to truck, unload rifle.


Mike

Makes as much sense to me,as a chain on my wallet...............(grin)

No, not a sear engagement issue at all. In one case the brush was so thick that I had already reset the safety on the push feed 70 three or four times. The striker down was definitely due to a twig in the trigger. (I really do not care much for the model 70 safety design, I like a tang safety much better)

The other occasion was due to a contest of strength between a saddle horse, a model 70 classic, and a four inch aspen trunk over the trail. The rifle lost! The stock was snapped cleanly in half at the tang. The offending log shoved the safety into the fire position before the stock broke, and something in the wreck caused the striker to fall. Hard to blame that on sear engagement either.

Friendly suggestion (and I do mean friendly): Save RickBin some bandwidth. Everyone who has more than a dozen posts in this thread that say the same thing over and over, let the dead horse be. It's not a contest of who can post the most or make the last post. Several threads go on forever (like this one), and it gets redundant quickly.

Carry on.

You've a mouse,move it.....................

Or,you could wade in.

Pun there......................

"Laffin"

With or without,one in the tube?..............

Ain't no use. It's just like the practice of law: on my best day, I make half the people in the room angry. This issue would be the same.

Then why burn bandwidth?..................

What's the difference between a dead skunk in the road and a dead attorney in the road? There's skid marks in front of the skunk.

Just kidding Waders. Worked out of a Courthouse for 30 years...didn't miss many jokes.

Put a goldfish in a Judge's water pitcher prior to a trial one day. Court commenced, judge couldn't see the pitcher very well from his chair..the courtroom about lost it, but maintained hoping for the obvious. The obvious occured. Judge (was my old Philosophy prof...we go way back..terrible judge...nice guy) went for the pitcher, raised it to pour into his glass...smiled just a bit upon the realization...put it down and just glanced for a second at me with a slight grin.

It will live in infamy

I find your efforts somewhat valiant, in a referee sort of way. But refs are part of the playing field to...so no foul and for your own sake....get outta the way or prepare to get run over........grin.

Good luck in your endeavors. Been there..done that. Best part, you'll save yourself from the disabling effects of "carnal tunnel". Never got that right...don't greet Regina's by their first name either.

stick,
if you think the way you hunt works everwere because you say it does your a fool.
i'd love to see you at deer camp stalking deer thru the SC GA AR woods w/ a pink rifle.
your inability to recognize that your style aint for everyone brings you out of the fool catagory to "loud mouth AH".
get overyourself already. you and your little cult do it however you want. we dont care. but quit preaching down to us like we never spent a day in the woods.
bring on the cool aid.

This thread like some others where the Big Stick group participates follows the same pitiful pattern. The primary part of the pattern is to demean others. This demeaning of others feeds their psychosis making them more and more dysfunctional and cruel.

Thus there is no real point in discussing topics with them.

I do wish that they could understand that youngsters and others read these forums. Overall they set a very bad example for the sport that we love.

What I suggest is that those of you with good hearts to think this over and try to lessen whats going on and to improve.

Empty chamber or loaded chanber??? It looks like we might as well be discussing Seatbelts or No Seatbelts; Helmets or no Helmets; It's hard to change someone's habit, unless they see first hand negative consequences...

I hunt waterfowl and upland game with others and the chambers are loaded. When not actively hunting (picking up decoys, walking back to the trucks), all actions are opened. Muzzle control at all times: loaded, unloaded, action opened or closed.

I have big feet, and get tangled in briars, downed fencelines, foxtail or canary grass and always have landed on my face or butt with the muzzle pointing in a safe direction- usually straight up. It makes for some awkward falls and sometimes landing harder, but my first instinct is to keep the muzzle pointing in a safe direction. (Partners generally give scores on how acrobatic your falls are, and I've been known to score some 9.5's and an occassional 10).

While rifle hunting I'll carry unchambered, unless there is a possibility of game showing up suddenly at short range- 50 yards or so. (kinda like upland or waterfowl).

I use the guns's "safey" but don't rely on it. (Cohiba, you're an idiot for having so much undying, faith in a mechanical safety. Foolproof safties are proof that there are fools). As for unloaded guns, there has been a lot of people shot with "unloaded" guns.

The biggest issue to me is not whether you carry chambered or unchambered, but how you treat the muzzle. It's been drilled into me that every gun I ever see, pick up, or carry is guaranteed to be loaded. I don't care if it's a new gun I'm taking out of the box for the first time, or if it's on a dealer's shelf.

I will hunt with anyone regardless if they carry chambered or unchambered, but it will be a short hunt if they can't control their muzzle or believe that a firearm on "safe" is actually safe. I lost a very good friend due to having a muzzle pointed in the wrong direction once too many tiimes.

Be safe.

every ND i have ever been witness to was with an unloaded gun.

Cohiba, what's your definition of a ND?

Stands With A Steyr,

I'm not forced to think about much,as per the rifle and taking one Outdoors...so I can tell you that which I KNOW.

A bolt action rifle is a very uncomplicated machine and that simplicity is coddling,in numerous ways. Being that is a constant quantity,effectively mastering them machines is readily "doable",for those of the inclination. I happen to be so inclined and the results come rather easily.

Easy to discern you've spent little to no time Outdoors,or with the rifle in general and that you are somewhat traumatized by those copious shortcomings.

Beings I've the luxury of one of most every colored rifle within the spectrum,I can attest that coloration has zero bearing on performance or Tag Punching. Critters cain't smell colors,you can take that to the Bank,if you can savvy my gracious tip.

I reckon Safety is a style and I'm much at ease in bolstering that style,for many reasons.

GPS coordinates,do not change rifle mechanisms and you can poke that tip in the Bank,as well......................

Should add tip #3...equally graciously,in that it is a physical/mechanical IMPOSSIBILITY,for an empty chamber to discharge in ANY manner.

Put it in the Bank,with the others,close your yap and you might could learn a couple few things......................

Being taught to always carry a weapon in condition 1, i am always "safe" with it.
its people who flip back and forth between loaded and unloaded that screw the pooch.
those people, who claim "I thought it was unloaded" cause the ND's.

Lovely.

I'm not much into grey,when black and white is available..................

i have no doubt that BigStick could hunt his way just about any where with the desired game and do just fine. it is not about a hot or cold pipe, its about doing buisness as you perfer and doing it well and he seems to do that in spades. like the guy or not he is good at what he does.

It's a cut/dry mechanical safety issue and no semantics,GPS coordinates or Family Tree Tutelage,can skew that simple fact................

I don't see any grey in being able to carry a gun uloaded at times, and loaded at other times if you treat ALL guns as loaded.

How does how you treat a gun matter when your azz over tea kettle? An empty chamber ensures nothing bad will happen...

When a round is chambered,EVERYTHING turns grey.

When it's empty,dat's black/white and IMPOSSIBILITY is very nice "odds"..............

My attitude is that every gun I handle or seen being handled I assume it is loaded. That mean's everything is black, there is no white or grey. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The gun is loaded so you better have your finger off the trigger, the gun pointing in a safe direction and in control, and the so called safty on.

I agree that when a chamber is empty the gun can't go- that is a fact. When rifle hunting when shots aren't expected to be up close range or when junting with pardners the chamber should be empty- I agree 100%.

I think you agree that you still have to control the muzzle regardless if a round is chambered or not.

.

At some point the rifle gets loaded even if its just prior the shot, and most times I'd guess a second round gets chambered whether it's used or not.
Heat of the moment, Pucker factor, thinking about a second finishing shot, fight with the wife last night and some people may not realize they have a live round left in the chamber. On a bolt, it's easy to see if it's cocked. but on a pump or semi-auto that's a little different. That's why the so-called "unloaded gun" ends up discharging in a lot of cases.

Every gun is loaded.

I have struggled some with this very issue, however, I have decided to hunt chamber empty.
I spent several years as a range officer at my local indoor range, amazing the scary stuff you see.
I do always assume the weapon is loaded, only way to do it.
I even check the chambers in rifles I am pawing at my local gunshop(much to the amusement of the clerks)

But the "every gun is loaded" theme don't help ya when the gun is actually loaded and you are going azz over tea-kettle, then you don't have control of the muzzle anymore. At that time it is good to have an empty chamber.

Interesting thread considering how many people hunt with a loaded chamber. Actually pretty scary to think about it. I quit hunting with one guy due to the fact he hunted hot and used his rifle scope as binoculars. WTF? I can only imagine many more doing the same thing as this dude!

You can't hunt pheasants or grouse without falling down some.
I've got two hands so its not hard to keep the stick pointing in a safe direction even going azz over tea kettle. I learned early on from running with scissors as a kid: Started out with the rounded point scissors and moved up to 7" pointed shears. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Yes it's good to have an empty chamber, and in situations with a rifle and partners close by thats the right MO. No argument there.

Come bear hunt here for a week carrying a pair of 7" pointed shears and see what happens.

I ain't dragging you out....grin

You must not do too much bird hunting.............

WB.

You must not be very good with a scattergun,either...............

If you're telling me you're going to hunt pheasants over dogs,with an empty scattergun,you either-

A)have never hunted pheasants

B)will say anything to support your argument

or

C)are completley full of [bleep]

I'm leaning twards a combo of B and C.

WB.

I'd say the gent who can't cycle a round into the chamber,before a scattergun is shouldered,rates a Blue Parkin' Permit.

Like Pheasants are hard to hit,to start with?

Never hunted O/U's or SxS's much,due to them concessions. Have no qualm setting over Dekes being ready to roll,but it never was my gig otherwise,when covering territory. Same goes Bandtails and Quail,barring manning a ridge stationary,for Bandtails on a HOT pass shoot route.

Have a few rifles on the kitchen table now and despite the odds being long that they AIN'T gonna get bumped off of there,they've no rounds in the chamber either.

Wearing my PJ's and there's no SOG less it's scabbard in my waistband either.

Funny that way..............

Read the first page of this post and the last...have NO idea what could be in the middle of it.

Do I? Mostly yes.

Depends on lot's of things though.
Who with, where, time of day (night). Terrain is a biggie. I don't hunt with strangers and my pards are of like mind.
We don't take chances and openly talk about whether or not it's the right thing to do. If someone "sweeps" another, it's immediately called and talked about.

When pheasant hunting the BSS 20ga. is definetly loaded, as are my pard's guns. We watch each other, other folks and the dogs. Never been an issue. Lot's of dead birds.

If someone brings a newbie. I watch him/her closely. If I see things I don't like I address same with the person that brought him/her and they fix it.. I stay clear and wary.

Never in an car..and no one ever does in my car.

As a practical matter, there's really no reason to have a chamber loaded firearm unless you feel you have reasonable expectation of seeing game.

My 2 cents. BT

Stick, you're starting to flail here man.

So now we're to believe that double shotguns are unsafe because they don't have a magazine for quick loading when hunting with an empty chamber, eh? A couple of centuries of usage by millions of hunters would prove otherwise (Dick Cheney nonwithstanding).

I've hunted enough years with enough fellows who always carried a round in the chamber to be convinced that it's a safe activity. I know of no one around here who hunts with an empty chamber, and I've never known anyone harmed by the practice. The only accidental discharges I've known have been in the process of loading or unloading, not carrying.

If you want to focus effort on something that WILL actually increase hunting safety then the concern should be directed towards tree stand hunting. Around here that's where 95% of your hunting accidents will occur. I personally know two guys in wheelchairs and one who's dead because they fell out of treestands. The other 5% of the accidents around here will be some idiot shooting at movement instead of identifying their target.

Safety is a laudable goal. However, obsessing over a practice that has been proven safe over a span of many years does nothing to increase safety. Do it if it makes you feel good, but don't try to blow smoke up the butts of a bunch of guys who know better.

Stick-
Have you ever discovered that the firing pin has unintentionally fallen on on the empty chamber you carry?

I don't like O/U's and SxS's for that reason,amongst other reasons,despite being guilty of having had more than a few. Can't like Ruger Number One's and the Browning B-78 for same,as I've had a number of each,as well as the afrementioned S/S XP-100 mid-grip. That's all stated plainly.

Simply concessions I'm unwilling to make,for serious pursuits.

You couldn't fathom how little I'm concerned with how the masses have done much of anything,be it for the past week or the last few Centuries.

I'm a fan of known quantities and the odds don't get better than IMPOSSIBLE and such things soothe me........................

Then you'd better swear off ever touching a gun for the rest of your life, that's the only way you're going to get that guarantee.

Easy to chamber a round,as needed and then to either eject the empty or the live one and continue on after target engagement.

I can guarantee you that.

Go burn a few Witches,I hear it was all the rage...for a few centuries.....................

And why does that "amuse" the clerks? I make a point of checking the chamber of every gun I pick up regardless of whether the clerk botherd to check. A clerk who does not check the chamber before handing the firearm to the customer should find a different line of work. If I were a gunshop owner and a clerk working for me did not verify each gun was in fact unloaded every time he/she touched it, they would not last long in my employ.

Don't recall anything falling,in transit..................

I'm very guilty of both the visual and a pinky poked in the chamber....................

Not really relevant to a rifle thread, but interestingly enough, I have hunted pheasant with a couple fellas carrying SXS or O/U. The men in question carried their guns open with the chambers loaded. When the dog "got hot" one or the other would close the shotgun and make ready to take the shot. (Gentlemen take turns) Heck, I have been known to carry my single shot 20 ga in the same manner when a couple of us were hunting over a single dog. I never had a problem closing the action before telling the dog to put up a pointed bird, then I cocked the external hammer as I shouldered the shotgun.

My 870 and the Wea auto, I always carried hot with my trigger finger on the safety button.

When I carry the #1, it is unloaded. I can stuff a round in the chamber when I make ready to shoot. It really is not that difficult if a guy does not get excited about it. The last time I got excited about killing something was in 1968, I have made sure to not let it happen again.

Why don't you just hunt with a bow?Then there's NO chance of anyone getting shot-there's no ammo period.You can shoot field points,so you don't accidentaly cut yourself...........

All I can figure is,you're such a complete klutz,that you HAVE to hunt with an empty chamber to avoid shooting yourself in the foot.The rest of us are savvy enough to avoid that.

I've hunted since I was a kid with a round in the chamber (and....gasp....even with a Ruger #1)and lived to tell about it.

Sometimes I don't even put the saftey on!


WB.

I was about to say,that that's much easier to do than working the action of a pump gun,or chambering a round in an auto.

Zero chance of a jam,either.......and you can always tell whether or not it's loaded,which is something that you'ld think Mother Stick would apprechiate.

WB.

noone who "knows" the gun has an empty chamber is really gonna treat it like it was loaded. thats were the problems start.
if your in my area and see a weapon w/ the slide forward lever or bolt closed ect you damn well better treat it as if it were.
We Southern gents like to keep our weapons at the ready, but then again our state is the size of you AK guys putt-putt courses.
maybe when i get old and feeble and do alot of falling ill carry empty. Have you AK guys looked into the LifeAlert Systems?
"HELP, IV FALLEN AND I CANT GET UP"!

I purchased a Colt Double Eagle when it was introduced and read in the safety instructions that Colt recommnded carrying the gun unloaded and not inserting the magazine until it was actuallly needed - and this was for a pistol that was intended for police and self-defense! Lawyer writing...

Reminds of a guy I worked with,that upon his first day I asked why he did something in such & such way and he said with much defense/animosity...."I've been doing it this way for 20yrs!". I mentioned in passing,that I'd not be bragging about being a slow learner.

Packed him out several times,for broken bones and cuts from the saw through the years(we go back 15yrs on the saw). He tried to call in a favor of sorts and wanted me to hire him,on the crew I was last running and I declined. A pard of his,who I'd known for almost as long and who I'd eagerly recruited to the crew,was pretty upset with me and I simply related that my choice was purely a business decision and had nothing personal to do with anything.

Well...after I'd quit,they hired him and he managed to have a tree in his lap on the first day and is still laid up,after 8 months.

"Experience" is a two way street,more power to you and your Number One...but that's one of them things I'd not be bragging about,being a slow learner upon.......................

Stands With A Steyr,

Nice commentary from a dude who thinks dry-humping a 100acre parcel,rates an exhilarating Outdoor Experience.

Your degree of stupidtitude,continually impresses me....................

Stands with steyr..........thats good..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Always enjoyed it when someone who couldn't even pack my lunch,is gonna tell me how to do the job.

Kids..................

I've perused all of my sources on hunting and gun safety and cannot find any mention of a recommendation to engage in the hunt with an empty chamber. There are just too many instances where an opportunity would be lost if one had to cycle a round into the chamber everytime game is encountered. There are, however, plenty of references to unloading a weapon when encountering obstacles, rough terrain or conditions where control of the muzzle may be compromised. I think the safety on the gun and in our head is sufficient when pursuing game with a round in the chamber. The second one just has to be used, that's all.

since its new years im gonna show a nicer kinder side...
mr stick,
we all dont have the luxury of hunting wide open spaces. the small tracts of private lands that i hunt must be comical to you. unfortuantly thats all i have availible to me.
if that is a joke to you so be it. at least i get to hunt, some dont have even that small luxury.
you inability to understand that we all live in different places and do things differently and like different things is curious. curious, for someone who is so intelligent and well read as yourself not to understand that simple fact.
i wont try to convince you of it further.
ill keep hunting my small woodlots, with my loaded steyrs and hopefully continue to take some decent deer.
i can tell you for usre those tenderloins the family ate last night couldnt have tasted better if i'd killed the deer of a 10,000 acre parcel w/ one of your rifles.
happy new year to you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As a gunsmith I can tell you that eventually something will go wrong. Guns can even fire when you slam the bolt shut on some with light triggers. The way I avoid these things is to hunt alone. That way unless I shoot myself I will be OK?
When I climb into my treestand I have an empty chamber, same thing climbing down in the dark. I suppose climbing trees in the dark is dangerous too! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Minnesota law says empty magazine and chamber in a motorized vehicle, cased, no shooting from vehicle.
Once you are two boots in the mud, ice or whatever it is up to the individual. You can leave ammo on the dashboard if you want to. Hypothermia can make you do stupid things though.
I guess if and when I hunt with a guide I would discuss things beforehand?
I never trust a safety, and an empty chamber is a good idea lots of times. My personal feeling is that muzzle control is the number one priority because if it's pointed in a safe direction,
I don't care much about hot or not, of course nowadays I only hunt with family members and they know enough not to point guns at things they don't want to kill or they stay at home!
JMHO but I would like this forum better if people could let others express opinions without the insults. For example because a South Dakota man doesn't hunt from a treestand or not has nothing to do with our family heritage or intelligence. They just don't have a wide array of trees to choose from. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Happy New Year! (Hot or not)
whelennut

it was a chilly 56 degrees this morning. add that temp to the constand downpour we,ve had the last few days it was nice and muggy. I was condition one, muzzle down E tape over BBL scope on 4.5X and didnt see a thing. heck of a way to end the season. at least theres dogs and hogs galore and i only have to wait 9 months till deer season.

I load my rifle when I start out hunting and only unload it when I get back to the vehicle or if there is a reason to unload. For example a bad slick slope or crossing something like a fence or crawling over logs.. If you practice safe gun handling you do not need to keep your rifle unloaded to be safe. tom

I'd rather live my life doing my thing,than live by the rules set by some dwarf behind a keyboard in Alaska.

Will live happy knowing any chit I get myself in is my own damn fault,and not anyone elses........and I have yet to shoot any toes off.

And the #1 is likely the safest rifle I've ever hunted with.You are the ONLY person I've ever heard of,who has claimed it unworthy to hunt with due to saftey issues............

Stop trying to press your personal views on the masses Stick.There are a lot of greenhorns here,that are lapping your BS up.If you told them to run around the woods in pink lace panties,they probably would.


WB.

From another thread, but it proves just how much of a hypocrite you are. A shinning example for all Christians, and I am ROLLING...........

Steelhead,
The fact that you're having to follow me around the forum and post this chit,just proves that I have gotten to you.......

WB.

Tis fun watching an idiot handle a shovel, carry on......

Rollin my eyes..........

WB.

This is how I am too. But I will take the shell out of the chamber more often now.

I hunted with a friend that did not carry a shell in the chamber. I thought that was kinda silly. Later on in the trip I fell down the mountain just a few feet but my barrel was pointed at him the whole time I was sliding. I emptied the chamber the rest of that trip.

If you don't have the where with all to hunt with a firearm with a round in the chamber,maybe you ought to use a sharp stick and a rock, I have been hunting for about 50 yrs,. not bragging, just stating a fact. I have never encountered anyone who was hunting without around in the chamber, nor have I encountered anyone who suffered a mishap from doing so. I have also hunted in 1/2 millon acre tracks and 40 acre tracks. Didn't seem to mnake a differnce either

In over 2 decades of hunting here in the North East, I don't I have ever came across a hunter that did not hunt hot. I was taught this way and have hunted this way since I began and never really gave it a second thought.

I have hunted with the same 2-3 pards since I began. All are very safe hunters/shooters. Except when teaching one of my Pard's kids, we always hunt hot. We walk into the woods cold. Some would chamber when we were part way to where we intended to hunt, some would chamber when we split off from the group. We usually sit and still hunt in designated areas, and wear blaze (another can of worms). So I guess you could say although we walk in together, but tend to "hunt" alone.

That being said, this thread caught me in one of my rare "open-minded" times and got me thinking and considering things that I never did before. Funny thing is that I also sometimes hunt with a revolver, and never thought having to cock the hammer a disadvantage. Can't see that a cold chamber in a rifle would make much of a difference in recreational hunting. Our Eastern Whitetails don't shoot back.

I've got kids at home that rely on me and that will soon begin learning how to hunt and shoot. Some serious considerations. Will probably hunt "cold" next deer season. In the big picture it seems like a worthwhile "handicap".

Chris

Hard for me to equate Sluicing the Back Pasture as "Hunting",for many reasons.

Never could determine a taste difference afflicted Venison,regardless of rifle Make,but cain't equate all rifles as equals. Nor boolits,nor scopes,nor barrels,nor stocks,nor much of anything.

But 100acre Forays ala the Steyr,are beneath my dignity and I've been knowed to stoop low.....................

Safety ain't BS,never has or will be,in my book.

Gimme a reason to exacerbate odds flowing the wrong way and I'm ALL ears.

The Number One will kill things cleanly,I'm not forced to speculate on that,as I've done it much. What it is and less reservation,is compromised to load/shoot fast,when negating the arcane propensity to tote same HOT.

Couldn't begin to fathom the amount of stupidity,you've taught yourself and I've zero doubt them admissions is true...but I'd be slow to brag about same,amongst them with a clue.

Troubles me none,that someone seen the light..................

Just because folks don't do things YOUR way,don't mean they're stupid.

One of my new years resolutions is to not lower myself into any arguments with the Alaska crew.Ya'll are pig headed,and can't see things from anyone else's point of view,so what's the point in wasting my time.


WB.

Nothing pigheaded about a basic understanding of the rifle.

One in the chamber is a safety concession,that an empty chamber tidily negates in totality.

I savvy your not wishing to argue that fact...because there is no arguement to make....................

Have hunted all day with an empty chamber in my rifle and have hunted more than once with an empty chamber in the pump shotgun. Other times I chamber a round as soon as I'm a decent distance from th evehicle or camp site. Depends on what I'm hunting, and where.

thats OK. we all have different versions. mine is what i have grown up with and can afford and i dont feel shamed to do it, I feel proud. Anyone in any wood who is a beliver in fair chase and respect for tradition and the animals we take is a hunter by my book. maybe i just stoop lower. its OK by me. Its a trade off to have to hunt deer on small parcels but to have a state that starts dear season in Sept. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
thatnks for the imput. your ideas are something to consider... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

and ours starts in Aug.... and in some locals.. July.... goes through Dec.

We're plagued with parcels greater than 100 acres and a Season that opens in July and runs 'til yesterday.

Them two things much hamper R&D,as do the liberal bag limits..........................

same here, the august part, in some parts (game zones) mostly the low country (what we call out costal area).
i fell for the guys that are only allowed to hunt 2 weeks out year. i'd go crazy...
er.
were pretty liberal as well. SC has no provisions for checking deer. no game stations, no tags (exept doe tags for use any day) we have several either sex days as well. i think the state says 10 deer for total. its been a few years since i'v killed 10. i think 9 a few years ago. only 4 in SC this year. i guy i used to hunt meat for has since died. the local presbyterian church runs a food kitchen so i gave them a deer this year as well.

I was takin' a pizz and re-Screwdrivering........................(grin)

Just sitting here with the kids doing the bed time thang...

Just mulling over the idea of a 25-284 again.... i've got a Howa donor that might could be the One... Though i still need to build a K hornet...

Decided to do the Mickey thang on the stock for the boy's 223AI. Let the wife pick the colors cause it will end up being her's by default once the boy's out grow it... It's going to be "Special".. though it will fit in with the rest of the stable nicely...grin

I think the K-Hornet,223AI and 25-284 is all mandated,if only for the kids alone........................

Yeah, it sucks to be us.. We can only shoot 4 deer, 1 moose, 5 wolves, 1 goat, 1 sheep, 5 Caribou, 1brown/grizzly, and 2-3 black bears a year...

then there's Musk Ox, Bison and elk to put in for..

And the Proxy Parade,the Subsistence Fishing Thing and a man can get beat right down to a frazzle.......................

What twist you doing in your 25-284? i might just order a barrel when i get home...grin

Still need to find a 77/22 Hornet for the K thang! Found one in Kenai but didn't have the scratch to seal the deal...

Didn't want to snap him with the fishing thing too...grin

1-10".

Saw a VHZ 77 Hornet for $425 somewhere,not too long ago.........................

Can also do the crabbing/shrimping thing.... A guy could find alot of things to keep him occupied all year round! Glad i live here and regret the fact that i'll more than likely leave for a couple years on my next assignment...

I'll be back though....... grin

if you spy it again let me know.... I NEED one to go with the dies i already have and Moma say's she wants one too.... grins

Let's not forget the Wingshooting.

If a man gets bored here,I cain't help him.....................

It was Online,but I can't know where.

Mighta/mebbe been here?.......................

You're gonna love getting here....40 below and wind chill on top......

Cool.. i'll check arround... Best i've found is 595 new in Kenai..

btw, tell bernice we said hi......or ella, depending on who's there...

Sweet.

Will tell our favorite BarMaid,to make the next,a double...so as to have enough anti-freeze for the conditions...................

Ella.

She was asking about you two. She's a doll...............

You don't want to do a 25-284......

I do ...

I want a 257Roy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just might have a Pac-Nor coming next month for that purpose, hope it feeds.........

hope it's not thinner than a #5 ... or it won't shoot straight either ...

Bet ya it's even smaller than a #2..............

sucker ...

I'm a slow learner, keep doing light contour rifles with Leupolds on top, I'll learn eventually.........

I figured as much.. though a pair would be cool!!!

If anyone is still interested, here is a link to some hunting accident statistics: http://www.nssf.org/pdf/NSSF_IIRv6.pdf
Page 4 has a table breaking down about 900 accidents (both fatal and otherwise) from one year into groups by root cause. Interesting reading and good info. Make of it what you will.

Just scanning the data you referenced on page 4 but it looks like 200 � 300 of the 800 incidents could have been avoided if a bullet were not in the chamber. While I do hunt hot, that�s definitely something to think about��..

My rifle stays loaded most of the time I'm away from home. I don't point it at anything that I'm not willing to shoot and I keep my safety on until just before I shoot.

It's not that I fully trust my safety. What I DO trust is my muzzle control and trigger awareness.

That being said there are times like climbing into tree stands or handing my rifle to someone else that I unload or where demanded by law.

IMO it's ALL about muzzle control because I consider ALL guns to be loaded with the safety off ALL the time.

$bob$

Believe me,you ain't mandated to wave an empty chamber's muzzle,in your pard's snout.

You can have the cake and eat it too and it simply blows me away,that many are too [bleep] stupid,to see the obvious in that...................

You're right! Some 35 years ago my fathers best friend shot and killed himself crossing a fence. I've never felt comfortable loaded but for some reason felt it necessary. Even if it does cost me an opportunity at game, the safety factor is definitely worth it.

You have a convert!

I also can't believe how folks consider muzzle control as safe as an empty chamber.

Go azz over heels or fall out of a treestand (for the Dixie huners), let me know how the muzzle control thing is working out for you are you are falling.........

I don't think too many said that a loaded chamber was "as safe" as an empty. It may not be "as safe" as an unloaded chamber, but it is certainly not "unsafe" as some are making it out to be, if the firearm is otherwise handled safely. All other things being equal (i.e. safe handling), it isn't but a fraction of a sliver of a percentage that will hurt themselves or someone else with a loaded and safed rifle by going "ass over teakettle".

I'd agree that anyone traversing rough terrain on a "point a to b walk", or crossing fences, or having a chambered rifle in a scabbard isn't too slick, but to but to call half the members of the board a bunch of "dumb [bleep]" because they actively hunt with a hot chamber and don't do things your hyper safe way is the pinnacle of arrogance and ignorance. Spent way too much time myself between military, LE, and hunting with loaded chambers at every turn, without seeing anyone receive a scratch as a result, to know it's the guy behind the gun, not the readiness condition of the gun. Save your "wouldn't be braggin' about how long..." garbage for someone who don't know better. It's called first hand long term experience.

Come still hunting deer or elk with me just one time in the pinyons and junipers, and do it with an empty chamber. See what the odds are of you taking a shot on a bedded elk or mule deer at 20 yards when you've got to cycle the bolt. Ain't happenin', I don't give a chit how fast you think you are, or what kind of super rifleman you envision yourself to be.

What works in AK because of different hunting techniques, abundance of game and hunting opportunity and because too many guides have had dumb chit clients who weren't fit to carry a pop gun let alone a real rifle swing a muzzle past their ear, don't necessarily work for everyone in some situations.

"Absolutes" are great, but where are you drawing the line? Won't get shot if I don't carry hot. Won't get in a wreck if I don't speed. Won't get hurt if I don't go to work. Where do these "absolutes" stop becoming safe practices and start becoming some kind of freakin' phobia?

I'd be real interested to see what you guys think of carrying a 1911 cocked and locked? A Glock with a hot chamber? A Sig?

Do tell....

i have recently started carrying a 1911 style pistol condition one. I carry it in an andrews IWB stong side. i guess its been about 16 years now. so far so good.

Funny how those who hunt hot, think they have a corner on thick brush, tough terrain, and smart critters....

Didn't say that, just stating a fact. If you think you can get a shot off on a bedded or standing animal in the dry azz junipers and cedars of AZ at 20 yards without spooking him off his bed trying to jack a round in the chamber, or taking the subsequent less ethical running shot, you're foolin' yourself, and might even fool someone that don't know any better, but you certainly aren't fooling me.

I gotta say, from reading this thread, I'm sure losing respect for anybody that lives in Alaska. I'm sure they're not all a$$sholes, but from this thread it sure seems like that could be the case. I don't think I need to say anything about how I've always hunted with a loaded chamber, and always will, and I have never met anybody who doesn't.

Tis nothing new. Aparently living and hunting in paradise gives one the corner on firearms handling enlightenment. The rest of us should just bow at their feet and take their proclamations as gospel I guess....

Just re-read my posts on the thread, and don't see where I was being an a$$hole....but it's your story.

I am from TN and learned long ago that hunting with a round in the chamber is a recipie for disaster.......Blake

Edit to add, that is if I am still hunting, if I am on the stand I usually have one in the chamber.......

a$$hole.....grin.

DaveR, +1

Example has more followers than reason.
Dangerous is the man who has rationalized his emotions.
Reason always means what someone else has got to say.
He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak.
If you follow reason far enough it always leads to conclusions that are contrary to reason.

Funny how in hunter's education classes they don't teach kids to hunt with an empty chamber...

thanks for the stats. they show the usual top two killers (by a looooooong shot):
not identifying target and swinging on a buddy (almost always while bird hunting.)
neither one has anything to do with rifle hunting with an empty chamber.
one gets down to absolute negligent idiocy (not identifying target)
the other gets down to shotgun muzzle control in a hunting party.

I find it sad, not funny...

but i gotta say: this thread has me paying ever sharper attention to safety while hunting ...

That's because the International Hunter Education Association, an organization involving thousands of dedicated hunter safety instructors across the country, plus cooperators in the shooting sports industry, conservation organizations, hunting and shooting safety advisors, and 63 state and Provincial Hunter Education Administrators in Canada, Mexico, and the United States, and the International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies obviously don't know anything about hunter safety!

Yeah, good point Jackfish. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'd sure like to take Big Stick pheasant hunting sometime, and see how well he does hunting with an unloaded shotgun!

that is a course for beginners and i can agree w/ it for the sake of the instructors.
a step up the ladder and you see that the range at gunsite is a HOT range were all weapons are loaded at all times.

The Alaskans are hunting using the up most firearm safety and are willing to accept the consequences of spooked game. Why anyone would attempt to persuade them otherwise is beyond me.

What�s more difficult to do without spooking game, chamber a round or draw a bow? How much of a factor is chambering when game exceeds 50 yards? Last I heard folks have been killing game for a LONG time with a bow!

My son and I hunt grouse with open pump actions and don't find it a hindrance, but he's young and has a lot to learn.

Drawing a bow is a hell of a lot quieter. Thats for sure.

What I don't like, is I'm right and you are all wrong. Many have stated sometimes its neccessary to chamber a round in certain circumstances. Most also say that most of the time they are not chambered. Somewhere along the line a round has to be chambered. Some do it a few minutes before others by choice.

As mentioned, if I think I can get away with it, I hunt MT also.

But its a lost cause for sure to argue this one on forward. FWIW the hunts I"ve done in AK where unchambered till the shot came. But sometimes the round sat in the chamber then for 10 minutes till things were correct. Of course the shot was not very close either.

Jeff

That's the thing. Nobody is trying to persuade them to hunt differently than they do, or calling them out as dumb chit's because they hunt the way they do. Same courtesy isn't being given in return however.

I got to say, if I was hunting with the increased opportunity and lack of pressure the AK's do, it might not bother me as much bustin' out a spooked animal at close range. In most of the lower 48 though, that may be the only chance you're getting in a season. I don't spend countless hours creeping along silently still hunting to blow it at the shot opportunity because I'm making noise trying to chamber a round that should have already been chambered, had I not been a'skeered of guns and ammo.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

wowza, I just read this entire thread....

With all due respect, he did not shoot himself because he had a loaded chamber, he shot himself due to a bad decision; crossing the fence with a loaded gun.

Mike Fletcher

This is what Alaskans are saying about those of us who prefer to hunt with a loaded gun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

yes

I hunt with a round in the chamber and the safety on. I unload the chamber when safety and common sense dictate it is prudent to do so. If I was in a situation where I could not control the muzzle I would unload the chamber.

Mike Fletcher

Game densities are often not what many "outside" think they are. Many deer populations down in America are much higher that a lot of our game animals. Lucky stuff happens, for sure, but most hunts are long and hard.

Didn't mean to imply AK hunts aren't long and hard, or were by any means easy. I'm sure they are tough, and I can only imagine at this point, unfortunately. But, you guys certainly do have more opportunity available, as was previously mentioned, i.e. multiple OTC deer tags, caribou, moose, sheep, goat, multiple black bear, grizz, etc., etc, and considerably less pressure I'm sure.

Blowin' a still hunt on a deer don't hurt so much when you're going bear or sheep huntin' the following week, does it? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> When it's blown on the only opportunity to fill the only tag in your pocket for the year, it stings.

You're puttin' words in a lot of people's mouths, including mine.

One question, and its EASY. Would it have happened on an empty chamber?

Brother Dave, maybe so, but so far I haven't seen anyone from Alaska disagree with Big Stick, so I assume you were all in agreement on your opinion of those who hunt with a loaded chamber. Which, I would guess, is about 90% of the hunters on this continent.

No...and it also wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been carrying a gun, or if he would have stayed in bed that morning, instead of going hunting.

I live on the edge of Paradice and I must admit I do it both ways .......

I sometimes even find myself with one up ... safety off ... with finger on the trigger !!!!!!

Dude, don't act stupid. If he had not carried a gun or would have stayed in bed he wouldn't have the chance to take a critter.

[/quote] This is what Alaskans are saying about those of us who prefer to hunt with a loaded gun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]


I think it should more properly be stated that only CERTAIN Alaskans are painting those of us who hunt with a loaded chamber as "too [bleep] stupid." So don't condemn/judge every Alaskan that way.

This said, the Alaskans who do make such proclamations, in my opinion, suffer from an excess amount of the following malady:

Hubris

And as such it greatly impairs the continued acceptance/credibility of their opinions on other shooting/gun related topics.

HBB

nevermind. enough has been said on both sides and noone is the wiser. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This sounds like a bunch of anti's arguing with a bunch of pro gun people.

Let's all remember that guns (and loaded chambers) DON'T shoot people!!! PEOPLE shoot people.

Don't blame the gun or the loaded chamber. Blame the nut behind the trigger.

If you don't have the sense or self control to know where to point your firearm and when then you probably wouldn't be safe driving an automobile either. Read the stats... They're WAY more dangerous.

This is an inane argument.

My gun is loaded... If you don't like it then you belong with the other camp. It will ALWAYS be Cocked and Locked or whatever condition you prefer to call it and I don't care if you like it or approve of it or not.

$bob$

That was my point. He also wouldn't have killed himself if he had unloaded the gun before crossing the fence, or failing to do that, he could have in the least, not pointed the rifle at himself. Those who are saying they hunt with one in the chamber are not saying they never unload the chamber when the situation calls for it.

I like Alaskans.
exactly were they are. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You folks are so blind. The nut behind the trigger is THE reason........

Among the assumptions you're making, seems to be one that they somehow know when they're about to fall down.

Wish I knew that, ahead of time, every time.....

Just for starters, I carry empty most of the time ... but do carry hot enough that it would cause Big Stick and Art to probably want to tell me to leave from their area ... Not that I'm unsafe, just that both of them believe firmly in not chambering until it's time to shoot ..

having said that, the "argument" isn't about carelessness, ... at least not how I see it ... it's about what might happen if you were to slip and fall, or something like that, where no matter how safe you normally are, or how conscious you are of where your rifle is pointing ... you've found yourself in a situation where you've lost control of your firearm, and there's a round in the chamber that has the potential to be discharged ...

I don't think anyone can (or would even try to) argue that this CAN'T happen ... and likewise, we ALL agree that with no round in the chamber, it is impossible to be shot. Of course you still treat the weapon as if it's hot ... but again, that's not the point ...

I like the "odds" of minimizing the chances that I can actually harm myself or others due to keeping the chamber empty as much as possible, but w/out being ridiculous about it either ... I can't agree with those who insist on having a hot chamber from the second they get out of their truck/camp until the second they get back in the truck/camp , simply because that's the way they've done it and they have never had a problem doing it that way ...

Know what? "that guy" had never been in a fatal car accident, until the one he got in ... funny how that works, isn't it?

Still blind! So when does the situation call for it? I'm not trusting my life on anothers judgement. You can.......

When you fall down is your finger on the trigger? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Beat me to the punch!

I take it back....you are stoopid.....

...grin...

Definitely not trusting my life to you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

.....OHH BOY, if an 'enlightened' legislator could get hold of this thread,boy could he write up some new gun laws with it!..Remember thier are plenty of them that have been trying for some time to require trigger locks on all firearms in your home,which would SAVE lives (at least the lives of criminal invaders , the homeowner hamstrung with getting a triggerlock off his gun)..Then there's those who want all ammo locked away in a seperate location from your firearms, NO loaded guns in your home without risking being a felon..."SMART' guns(I suppose so your spouse couldn't use your gun in the event you wern't there?)...It goes on and on. Sounds like a good number of folks here are ready for some "well thought out" gun legislation to protect us all from harming ourselves...GOD bless America (Amerika?)

olhippie
Missed the "While Hunting..." part of the title... huh???
art

Good! I won't be trusting my life to you either, or anybody else who's gun handling skills are so poor that he/she cannot be trusted to hunt with a loaded gun!

bdan68
I think, you put to much trust, in your safety system on your weapon.
It is so easy to hunt with an empty chamber.
If you have an accidental discharge and hurt someone you will wish you would of had your gun unloaded.
I don't know, if you have ever seen any one shot or not. It's not a nice site. (most of the time)

All I can say is, I hope and pray the hunt hot crowd never, ever learns the hard way of their hubris.

Nobody intends to screw up, but in the real world bad things happen. Disasters are always a chain of events, never just one thing going wrong. An empty chamber always breaks that chain.

I guess it comes down to some folks would rather risk killing a loved one or friend than loosing a game animal. I can't see the value in such a decision, but I guess I just don't have east coast sensibilities and master gun handling.

I am not putting the trust in my safety, I don't need to...I am putting the trust in myself, in not pointing my rifle at myself or others, ever.

One thing I do know, is that to hunt blacktails with an empty chamber is the same as not hunting at all. And I'm sure the same can be said for most whitetail hunting situations.

A+ +
458 Lott
That should about sum it all up.

East coast safety...
Loaded rifle, sister screwing, Dixie singing, chaw spittin, barefoot, hounddog on the porch, still in the shed, fatback in the pinto's, fried balogna sandwitch eatin, country music listnen', (did i mention sister screwing?) SISTER SCREWIN!, bunch a Hillbilly DUMBPHUCKS!
and im proud to be one.
did i mention sister screwin?

At least not intentionally, but that's exactly the point IMO. When you fall, you're not thinking about the gun, you're trying to keep boots on the ground and in so doing...

Wow! Dude, get help.

we tried, they couldnt get the little yellow bus down my red dirt road.

Ya'll are forgetting,that the Alaska crew thinks folks from the lower 48 can't even wipe their own ass.Let alone hunt with a loaded rifle.

WB.

I don't think, this is about being some kind of a Joker.

How many Alaskans does it take to change a lightbulb?
1 to climb the ladder, 4 to hold the ladder, one to hold the new bulb, one to package the old bulb in a puncture proof container and 2 on belay.

if i wasnt so [bleep] dumb i'd add that up.
but im stoopid...
DUH HUH!
and inbred.
cuz i hunt wiff bullits in da gun...
DOPE.

bdan
Been known to shoot two flavors of blacktail, whitetail and mule deer carrying an empty tube. Might have even shot a couple other species that way...
art

well of course YOU can. but your exeptional as are all Alaskans.
really.
The rest of us pale by comparison.
whats amazing is that my great great grandfather got by.
was alaska even a state then? hum?

I'd be willing to bet that I carry a rifle more in a year than the average DS person does in 20 years. Carrying a rifle is almost part of the culture here, in and out of boats, float planes, fishing, shooting daily, hiking, hunting, etc etc. I cut my teeth on big game hunting in AK and learned the benefits of an empty chamber.

Have spent many years in SE USA hunting whitetails with an empty chamber whilst moving, which is 99% of my hunting because I don't enjoy stand/blind hunting. If one develops the habit it becomes second nature and causes no problems.

Can't think of a single critter that I couldn't get because of an empty chamber, but can recall a few falls that end with the rifle pointed in a less than ideal position. Not to mention that NO ONE is able to control the muzzle a 100% of the time, and you only need that one time to wish you had an empty chamber.

The worse thing that could possibly come from an empty chamber is not getting a shot at a critter, BFD. That is a lot better than the worse that can happen with a loaded chamber. Perhaps there would even be less accidental shootings if people had to take that extra second to load a weapon before firing. Would limit knee jerk shots from jerk city folks.

Do any of you knuckleheads wear a seatbelt? Did they teach it in Drivers Ed 30 years ago? Were cars even equipped with them 30 years ago?

Well,at least you're humble.

WB.

I only put a seatbelt on when I know an accident is about to happen.........

It is a crying shame that is the only thing you got from that post or that you focused on. Safety be damned, uh?

Ok, I removed the first sentence, now what?

There was an old Elmer Keith story (I think it was in "Sixguns",IIRC)where he claimed he kept every gun in his house loaded.He said this way,whenever folks came over and wanted to look at his guns (which was often),he could hand one to them and say "careful-it's loaded."

He said when he did so,they automatically handled the gun with much more respect.He said when he handed them an empty gun,and they checked it and saw that it was so,they would point it all around,dry fire it,ect.

WB.

The ONLY reason we have naysayers is their perception of the disadvantage it yields in taking game, yet not one of them have referenced an instance when it has cost them a kill. We have folks making an argument with absolutely no experience, admittedly, on the subject for which they argue. Compelling!

There's nothing wrong with taking extra precautions to hunt safe.

Just don't tell folks that hunt with one up the spout that they have a death wish,or that they are dumb [bleep].Not everyone does things the same way you do.

WB.

Firearms Death Rate per 100,000 by state lists ALASKA AS #2 only second by Distric Of Columbia.
You guys are right. YOU need to keep YOUR chambers empty.

I'm a little more careful. In addition to what you've noted, I wear mine when driving over 70 mph......

Find deathwish or dumb [bleep] anywhere in there?

Do you think the first 2 sentences of my above might have something to do with that?



Course I was being HUMBLE as WB pointed out. How many happened with empty chambers?

I'm sorry,but it cost me two deer a long,long time ago.I wasn't purposesly hunting with an empty chamber,I just hadn't chambered a round yet.

Both instances,I stumbled up on bucks fairly close (30 yards or so).Tried to work the bolt slowly and quietly,and they heard me and skeedadled.

They were both dinks,so it was no great loss.My old man once lost a buck when he tried to drop a round down the chamber and close the bolt on it,and the bolt didn't engage the cartridge head.Over course,that's pretty rare,and he had a completley dry rifle (had just stepped out of the car when he jumped the buck).

WB.

How many happened with empty chambers?
all of them probably.

This whole thread has called folks who hunt with a hot chamber stupid or just asking to get shot.

WB.

"I thought it was unloaded"

WB.

Ever lose any because of wind direction?

Yup,have lost more than a few because of that too.

Lost these two because of the noise of the action though.When the cartridge popped out of the magazine and into the chamber,both of the bucks,on both seperate occasions whipped their heads around and ran off.

Don't try to tell me they smelt me S'head.You weren't there.

WB.

The way I see it, the guys who hunt with a round chambers do so because they don't really hunt in a situation where they can accidently shoot themselves. If I walked down a nice trail, climbed up a tree stand, and sat still for 10 hours, I might be inclined to be "ready" with a round in my chamber. What the heck else would a guy do but be "ready"? Unfortunately, that is not how we hunt up here. I've managed to punch two holes in each of my Rem Ti stocks, I busted two butler creek flip ups, (this year) and have hiked through some of the most horrific [bleep] that I ever could imagine just to get somewhere to see what was there. Hiking through an old clearcut, uphill, just plain sucks and their are many opportunities for a rifle to become snagged up and for branches to start flipping switches and triggers. Not to mention the couple of tumbles a guy takes a day when hunting in the [bleep]. I'm not trying to be cocky, but conditions are about as extreme as they can be up here when backpack hunting for Blacktails. You find out what works and what doesn't work really fast.

But, if your hunting resembles something seen on TV and you don't even need flip-ups on your scope or a sling on your rifle, then you're probibly a bit safer strolling around with a hot gun. (i'd still not hunt around you though)

This whole thread is "stoopid." (as you Alaskans spell it)

I will continue to hunt with a loaded chamber, same as I've done for 27 years. If you don't like it, too bad. You don't have to hunt with me. Good enough? I will refrain from calling you safety conscious people "stupid [bleep]," just because you do things differently than the majority of the hunters in this world. I would hope that you would not label me a "stupid [bleep]" for the same reason.

Never called you a stupid [bleep], but can if that helps you sleep.

Cohiba
Your comments are utterly without value in the argument. You give me (sarcasticly) the opinion you believe I am something special. Were I, you should have sense enough to listen to me. As shown plainly by your dripping sarcasm you do not really believe that. So my argument has much merit. If I can do it anyone should be able to.

You have also missed the key point in the whole discussion... It is simply because the consequences of an accident are so huge, NOT because an accident is likely that drives the whole issue.

Statehood and your grandfather have zero basis in this discussion.

You may do as you wish, obviously, but thinking rationally about what is going on when you are hunting should give you pause.

As an aside not directed at anyone in particular, the more adamant an individual has been about their perfect muzzle control the more likely I have looked down their muzzles at some point.

Also, another driver for me is my height. Perhaps because an average height individual's slung rifle muzzle is below my nose level I get to see more of them than most...
art

Joel, when I'm walking through terrain such as that where I'm falling on my a$$ constantly, I would not have a shell in the chamber either. Most people here would probably unload the chamber as well. If you're falling down that often and making all the noise that goes with it, I can see where an empy chamber would not be much of a handicap. You're not going to be walking up on a bedded buck within spitting distance anyway, making all that racket. What I've been talking about here is when I'm hunting and expecting to see a bedded buck at any moment, and chances are will only have a split second for a shot, hunting with an empty chamber would be a waste of time. Do you not agree? I find it hard to believe that all of you "safe" hunters on here NEVER load your gun until the moment you are ready to shoot.

I hunt with one in the chamber. That's all I'm going to say about that.

Joel Steenstra,
Have no idea where you hunt,but the video I have seen of the country where Stick hunts,is much gentler (in terms of terrain) than the country I hunt.FWIW.

WB.

Well I wasn't specifically referring to you. It was that BS dude who said we are all stupid [bleep]. Boy I tell ya, my desire to visit Alaska is getting to be less and less the more I learn about the type of people that live there. Course my uncle just moved there so I may just have to go, but I'll surely stay out of public places and away from rude, inconsiderate people.

Dan-
How long doew it take you to cycle your bolt?

Is that such an extra long time that the risk of an ND is acceptable?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Do you think maybe we can't reference "an instance when it has cost them a kill" because we don't hunt like that? I don't need to drive without headlights to know I can't see in the dark without them, I don't need to stick my finger in a light socket to know it's probably gonna hurt, and I don't need to try and hunt an empty chamber and lose several animals to know animals pretty much detest metalic sounds, can hear them a hell of a lot further off than I can, and I'll bet on a calm day I've got a good shot at hearing you cycle a bolt at 20 yards. The areas I still hunt I typically can't even see more than 70 or so yards if I'm lucky, and most shots are in the 20 to 40 range. One bound, and they're out of sight for good. If you mean to tell me that you can cycle your bolt on an animal at that range and not bust them out, well then, this I gotta see. I'd like for you to tell me just how many critters, since you haven't "lost any" to hunting wiht an empty chamber, that you have shot off their beds at 20 yards, after cycling a bolt?

Conversely however, just how many AD's have you personally seen because someone hunted with a hot chamber, and had an AD as a result of something other than piss poor gun handling (i.e. falls, failed safety, etc). And BTW, I'd classify someone as shooting themselves while crossing a fence with a loaded chamber as piss poor firearms handling. That's got to be one of the first things we're taught about gun safety is to never navigate a fence or other obstacle with a loaded gun, and that's an argument against piss poor gun handling, not hunting hot chambers.

You gotta remember, I'm one of those stupid [bleep], and as such, I do not know what "ND" means. If you can clarify that, please, then I will answer the question.

Cohiba
The drivers in the terrible statistic you show are many... The native culture which represents a far greater share of those accidents; the likelihood alcohol was involved; the lack of saftey training (of any kind); And the far greater proximity to firearms on a daily basis. The exposure is huge!
art

Good, it's working....

Not trying to put a finger in your eye.

ND - negligent discharge. It's my opinion that few if any are accidents, meaning, to me at least, unavoidable.

You Alaskans have a lot of excuses for rape and gun accidents..........

WB.

Just a WAG, but I'd say about 2 seconds. And, generally that amount of lost time won't make a ND acceptable, but the noise it creates will. Did that make sense? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

That's a mighty broad brush.

I'd switch to a sprayer if I wanted to paint everyonethe same.

Too funny, but because you asked, Steelhead, could you please quote my PM to you prior to DaveR even asking the question.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it.

I bet you can cycle your bolt a lot faster. My point is that it is such a small amount of extra time that it won't have much effect on making the shot.

Where Stick lives, the hunting can be as easy or as hard as you want it to be. This last year was the first year I really did it the hard way. You really see some cool stuff when you get off the road and get up high. Every "stickism" makes sense when you are doing it the hard way. I learned my share of lessons this year, and realized half of my gear was crap. It was a toldja so season for me, but I learned lots.

Here is part of the pm from bxroads:

Charlie Sisk had a video clip showing cycling rounds through a bolt gun. IIRC it was 5 rounds, and although I didn't time it, I suspect all five cycles through under 2 seconds.

You won't understand until you actually experience it.

Hunting is like that most places.

I can put you in spots 'round here where you're pretty much guaranteed a deer... or two... every day. The problem is that you'll be so bored, you'll likely fall asleep. BT/DT.

And, I can get you to areas where you'll wonder WTF is going on, and not be able to see feet in any direction. And, where if you do it right, you'll get a deer, eventually... and it's likely to be right nice, too.

JFSAG, I'll go cold chamber on Saturday, the last day of the season, with the CZ 550 FS 9.3 (not slicked up yet AT ALL), and let y'all know how it goes from the viewpoint of any otherwise "loaded, ready" hunter perspective.

Oh, and I'll be in the thick schit, too. Just to rule out that variable.

HAHAH!
hey man, buy yourself a drink and send me the bill. That was classic.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
blam the indians and the firewater.
yeah, there arnt any Native Americans in any other states.
those rampaging drunk inuits causing all the crime and ND's.
heheheheh!
great. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The best post I've read so far.

For most who have familiarity with a rifle (an may even practice a bit), getting a round in the chamber before the rifle hits the shoulder is not much of a feat. Do it a few hundred times and it becomes and instictive thing to chamber a round while shouldering the rifle.

If you know what the heck you're doing, it takes ZERO more time to do it that way.

If the Alaskan crew can call everyone who hunts with a loaded chamber a "dumb [bleep]" (that'd be hundreds of thousands of hunters,conservatively),then I'm not being too unfair when I say that about a small group of Alaskans on this forum.

Art made an excuse for gun accidents in Alaska (essentially blaming it on natives);others wrote off rape in this thread-
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads...rue#Post1167840

WB.

IB,

For me, time has nothing to do with it. It's about noise. Believe me, were I just hiking through brown bear country in AK or elsewhere, I'd have zero problem doing so with an empty chamber, and in fact it would be so if I wasn't hunting. But, if I was actively hunting (versus just hiking around), one's in the tube unless I'm negotiating terrain where a slip and fall is possible, or some other obstacle. You've got to understand, that once I leave my truck or camp, and get more than 100 yards out from that point, I'm in "stealth mode" so to speak and ready for puttin' holes in and putting the sneak on critters, even if I'm going from point a to point b in the process. During these times, my rifle is almost never slung.

Did you see the pictures of the Dixie deer I posted on this thread some pages ago? All whilst hunting with an empty chamber, one at 20 yards.

WTB Ruger Stock

Link is validation of non-fabrication.....

Forgot to add... these'll be Dixie deer, too.

Somehow, I have the feeling that if I do my part well, the rest will be easy... whether I have to cycle that bolt or not first.

Most of the folks that are saying "you should be able to chamber a round in time",are working in theory.

Theory don't cut it,in the woods.

I'll continue to do my thang.But thanks for trying to save my life. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

WB.

You have to believe me, that is the last thing on my mind....

That explains why I didn't read the "rape" thread...it was started by Steyr-boy.

heh!

Then don't give me (or anyone else) chit about hunting with a hot chamber.

WB.

and that, my dear friends, pretty much sums up the crowd.

Okay, gotcha on the first one. Don't apply to me personally because I don't hunt tree stands, but gotcha nonetheless. Also, probably 100 times more likely to fall outta that damn stand than you are dropping a rifle and shooting yourself or anyone else with it, but okay.

But Whoa on the second one. What in the world does a rifle going off while chamberin a round have to do with hunting with a hot chamber? Unless you're shootin' imaginary bullets, you gotta chamber one of them suckers when you shoot too, dontcha? As long as the chambering of the round is done in a safe direction, where's the foul on the gun handler or how is this an agrument against hot chamber carry? Same exact thing would of happened had he not chambered a round until he intended to shoot.

The other quote from Elmer I recall well is when some tyro picked up one of his guns and asked, "Is it loaded?" Elmer's response was, "Of course it is! Empty guns get people killed!"

I have refrained from adding any fuel to this already plethoric bonfire, but I happen to have a slightly different perspective.

Most of my training/shooting occurs in LE/military/armed citizen settings. Mostly as an instructor, but often as a student/ re-trainer. As someone pointed out a while back, the basic courses at Gunsite (and elsewhere) are run on a "cold" range. FWIW, the only situations where people were shot in training that I am personally aware of were run on "cold" ranges. I don't know of a single "hot" range ND resulting in injury. Why is that? Well, as Elmer pointed out, when you KNOW the gun is loaded, you're going to be a lot more careful about the 4 Rules. I feel safer on hot ranges than most cold ranges because of this. Mind you, the hot ranges I've been on have pretty high standards you have to meet before they'll let you in. Nonetheless, you can FEEL the pucker factor when the rangemaster tells the line "we're goin' hot"!

Second perspective: I have hunted upland birds with double guns for 40 years. I've killed many, many birds over my dogs, and other people's dogs. Double guns are carried "hot". Period. Tough cover, whatever, I've never had a ND with a double gun. Shot thousands of birds, shot scores of thousands of clays, never had an ND. My father has 20 years more in the field than I have, and he's never seen an ND, either. Are double shotguns inherently more safe than rifles of any kind? Of course not. Adherence to strict safety rules is the key.

When I'm carrying a sidearm, I'm in "Condition Three", i.e. I have a round in the chamber, safety on. Police statistics show this is a lot safer for cops/military than carrying in "Condition One". Police ND statistics (and no, I can't reference them for you, most are internal data never shared with the public) show that "unloaded" guns kill and injure far more cops than guns that are KNOWN to be loaded.

I've hunted big game for 30 years with every member of every party carrying a chambered round. There are situations where guns need to be unloaded, yes. Commonsense. But for the most part, we're always loaded, safety on. No injuries. No ND's. And what about muzzleloaders and hunting revolvers... should we keep these unloaded, too? Gee, I think even the dumbest deer in existence would notice it if I stopped, knelt, pulled out my powder horn, charged the barrel, tamped it, patched my ball, started the patched ball, drove it home with the ramrod, capped the nipple, then AND ONLY THEN taking aim at the place my quarry stood 2 minutes previously. Ditto drawing and opening the cylinder of my 475 Linebaugh, jacking 5 fat cigars into the chambers, then closing the sucker before taking aim at the puffs of deer hair wafting in the wind.

I really don't have a dog in this fight. I have been in situations that swung either way. If anyone wants to hunt with an empty chamber under certain circumstances, or even all the time, more power to you, whether you live in Alaska or not <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. Do what works for you. If I go with a guide who insists that I hunt with a full magazine and an empty chamber, well, when in Rome... I'll make it work or I won't hunt with him again. But where I hunt on my own nickel, with my own hunting companions, we hunt a hot range. And my experience (and the police statistics) show hot ranges are safer.

Elmer's response was, "Of course it is! Empty guns get people killed!"
AMEN.

I'm concerned about the guy next to him, I'm sure that escaped you. I don't care what an adult does, but when we are sharing the woods I do.

Forgive me while I put on my Aviation Safety Officer hat. The whole chambered or not situation seems to be one of Operational Risk Management. What are the consequences of hunting with a loaded chamber if a should rifle should go off (dire) vs. what is the likelihood of that happening? (depends) If you hunt in extreme terrain, fall a lot or hunt with at least one more person or don�t practice keeping that muzzle up or down then you need to consider hunting with an empty chamber. (likelihood higher of that dire circumstance happening). If you hunt alone, out of a stand in the middle of your own 10,000 acre wood and don�t load the rifle until you get in the stand, likelihood is about zero. The middle ground is the hard part. I�ll use myself as an example. I often hunt out of a stand. The rifle is empty walking in (as it�s usually dark) the rifle is unloaded in and out of the stand and hoisted or lowered via line. I about as often hunt alone in the hardwood ridges. I enjoy the stalk and while I have taken deer out in the open at up to 150 yards or so. (My Washington State dry-side experience excepted) I more often shoot deer in the 25 to 75 yard range. If I had to rack a round at that point I believe it would cost me the shot. I stalk slow and can�t remember the last time I fell, even in the deep leaves. Hunting in these circumstances I am left with a consequences still dire (heck it�s a gunshot) but likelihood extremely unlikely that I will shoot myself. Thence it falls into an acceptable risk to hunt with a loaded chamber. When I get out of the woods and the country opens up or I meet up with a cousin or my brother walking out I often go ahead and put an empty chamber under the hammer.

I know this won�t change anyone�s opinion and you�re unlikely to change mind so I�ll blame a couple of glasses of nice single malt for me even weighing in on the matter.

Impossible for an empty chamber to kill someone. If you guys disagree, I guess Stick was right........

Saw it, but that sure don't look like 20 yard deer country to me. You leavin' a zero off the end of that range estimation? That had to be the dumbest ass whitetail east of the Rockies letting you sneak up on him in that open field to 20 yards.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Moral of the story is not to trust a safety. Duhhhhhhh......

Just a thought, and it might pertain to hunting conditions as well as hours afield with rifle in hand.

We have several members here arguing each side of this issue. I would like to take a poll as to how many have severely damaged a rifle or broken a stock in the field.

I am guessing that the same conditions which would lead to damaged rifles in the field would lead to accidental discharges, were the weapon hot.

I have replaced three rifle stocks which were catastrophically broken while hunting. I mean the stock was broken totally and the rifle was unusable until replacement.

Those of us who spend enough hours in the field under these conditions are more cognizant of the potential for accidents. Thus we more quickly recognize the virtue of carrying our rifle with an empty chamber.

I have been driving about 25,000 miles a year for thirty some odd years. I have never had a need for my seatbelt yet.

Does that mean I ought never fasten it?

Dude, the 10 point without me in the picture and wood stocked rifle was 20 yards away. The one with me in the pic was 240 yards, the other one was 50ish yards. All shot in Florida.

The one in the field was bedded at 400 yards and a crawled on my belly for an hour to cut it to 240yards and waited another 1 1/2 hours for him to stand.

+1, pugs.

WB
"If the Alaskan crew can call everyone who hunts with a loaded chamber a "dumb [bleep]" (that'd be hundreds of thousands of hunters,conservatively),then I'm not being too unfair when I say that about a small group of Alaskans on this forum.

Art made an excuse for gun accidents in Alaska (essentially blaming it on natives);others wrote off rape in this thread-
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads...rue#Post1167840"

I take more than a little offense to this post and am done with you. Your ability to enflame an argument without adding anything of substance is incredible. Your lack of understanding of what happens here is understandable, but cutting back under things as crudely as you have done is disgusting.

There are very real problems here, as there are on Indian lands all across the US. If you only had a clue...
art

"Duhhh", you show me where the safety failed in the second scenario, okay sparky? No chit don't trust a safety. Keep it pointed in a safe direction, as was aparently done here.

Thanks for the input, or lack thereof....I chit you not. Wow.

while crawling.....cold while wating........hot

I believe the point is the failure of a trusted mechanical device... it happens...

Mechanical device, as is the trigger, but wouldn't have mattered had I died when the rifle fell from the stand. Oh I get it. Triggers can malfunction but not a safety, well maybe a safety can fail when the rifle is dropped from a tree, but only when higher than 10', I'd bet my life on it too!

Have you ever missed a kill due to chambering a rifle vs a hot chamber?

Damn, imagine that. Alaskans CAN ration......

Gotcha, but HIS response was in response to my post asking how many people he knew of who had AD's because they were "hunting with a hot chamber", not because of a failed mechanical device. He proceeded to provide a story of someone who put a hole in the roof of his stand while chambering a round. Ask for apples, I get oranges.

Further, the liklihood of any safety failing is most likely when the firearm is being either loaded, unloaded, or taken off of safe. The typically do not fail in an engaged position or when dropped, although I'm sure it does happen, as stated above.

I live smack dab in the middle of multiple Indian reservations.

To blame them for effects on statistics,is laughable.Nearly everywhere in the country,they are outnumbered 100 to 1 (at the least).Believe it or not,white folks rape people and shoot themselves by accident too,much more than Indians,just due to there being more of us.

But that's a different thread,for a different time.

WB.

I think it was Sitka Deer that said it, as well as myself, and a few others ... This is NOT so much about the likelihood of you falling on your arse and having your rifle go off while pointing at you or another person, or at all for that matter ... it's all about the consequences of what can happen the ONE SINGLE TIME that it DOES happen ...

And I say to any of you ... if you are more worried about losing a head of game, than you are of eliminating any reasonable chance of a dire or fatal accident, then you have your priorities mixed up.

Don't get me wrong about any of this ... I absolutely love to hunt ... and I don't get to hunt nearly as much as probably most of the "hunters" here ... That means my chances of taking game are way behind most of yours from the time before I ever even think about stepping out into the woods ... But for cryin' out loud, I just can't see how a deer/elk/moose/bear/etc. is NOT worth the trade off ... especially when with very little practice one can master the art of chambering a round while shouldering the rifle ...

If that doesn't make sense to anyone with a teenage or better level of comprehension, I can't know what could possibly be said to make you understand ... perhaps experiencing someone close to you being shot or killed via accident involving an unnecessarily hot chamber is the only way?

WB,

How old are you?

The "unloaded gun",is the one that gets you in the end.

How many times have we heard "I thought it was unloaded?".

WB.

What's the maximum height I can hang a stand in order to trust a safety upon a drop. As stated above, I only wear seat belts over 70 mph.....

I'm shocked you didn't accuse me of rollin a doobie.........

WB.

Upon further review the "typically" part really cracks me up. When concerning one's life, I'd feel a higher level of security required.....

Again, for many of us, it's not about speed , it's about quiet. I'll stack my ability to bring a empty chambered rifle from sling position to ready to fire with just about anyone. I may not be the best, but I'm good enough. Speed ain't my concern. If you can show me, on the other hand, how to silently cycle a bolt, I'm all ears.



Some are making it sound like some poor clueless mutt out there still hunting some cedars is waving around a hair trigger safetyess death ray for crying out loud! It's a firearm, with a safety, pointed in a safe direction, while walking slowly on stable ground. Yeah, stuff happens, but I've got a better shot of winning the lotto than the one 1 in a billion shot I might trip over a cow pie, disengage the safety on my left nut, and shoot myself in the ass while walking a half mile an hour on level ground!

Man, I need a beer! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

How high of a level of security do you need? If you're that spooked about it, I'd recommend forgoing the carrying of ammo or climbing tree stands altogether, because as I said, you're probably 1000 times more likely to kill youself falling out of that contraption as you are dropping a rifle out of it and shooting yourself. You sir are probably no more likely to shoot yourself with a loaded chamber than a completely unloaded rifle, but I'll reserve judgement on that until I see you in action, cause judgin by these posts, I might just be talkin outta my azz on that one...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, I'm not making fun of you here, or trying to demean you ... but you're missing my point. What happens if/when you do happen to be the guy who takes that one-in-a-billion chance spill w/ your rifle ending up pointing in the wrong direction? And you say you would have to switch your safety off during the fall and THEN the gun would go off? I feel sorry for you putting so much faith in the safety mechanism ... but we've already gone over that here, that it can't be trusted, and can fail easily enough ...

I never said that ANYONE here is running around the woods like a mad man, waving his rifle around and acting stupid. Those of us that have been taking the time to eloquently debate the practice of carrying cold, have made it abundantly clear that this is about the risk of IF it does happen to you ... not about the frequency it might happen ... but again, most seem to be missing that point.

I used to carry hot ... and I never had an AD or ND ... but I don't carry hot anymore these days than I need to ... Same reason I don't drive quite/reckless as fast as I did when I was younger ... same reason I make a lot of decisions in my life... because even though the chances of something happening to me are small, the consequences, should something happen, are huge and devastating ... and that's something I'm going to willingly allow myself into ... If you want to, go ahead ... I can't/won't stop you ...

Good post, but I would add this: Behind all the namecalling, people are making a choice based on risk (maybe I am just restating what pugs said, if so , sorry). The probability of additional risk because you carried hot is VERY small. Some people can accept that, some don't. Considering all the other ways you can get hurt while hunting, the actual difference in the total probability of getting hurt between hot and cold is probably infinitesimal, but I can't provide that number. As one faction has metronomically pointed out, an empty chamber can't hurt anyone. You can also avoid any kind of hunting/shooting injury (further minimize your risk) by staying home. I suspect, but can't prove, that comparing the overall probabilities of getting hurt in the three instances (hot, cold, stay home) are such that hot and cold are so much closer to each other, in comparison to staying home, that there is no real difference at all, and certainly none worth 20 pages of hate and discontent.

Or, I could do the obvious and not carry hot, and still even have a darn good chance at taking game.

Funny how the obvious seems to escape you!

Well, how old? How many deer did you get this year? Last year? Any pics?

I hate to break it to you, but I can be pretty darn quiet when chambering a round when time is not an issue ... I can also flip open my butler creek covers with you next to me, and you probably wouldn't hear me ... same goes with my safety being flipped off ... Again, it's all about practicing and mastering the ability to do so ...

Now, read that again ... I'm not saying I can do it perfectly silently ... just that I can promise you that I can do it quiet enough that unless that head of game is practically sitting in my lap, I'm not gonna startle him ...


and further ... if you CAN do it quickly, as I said before... you might spook him, but you should be shouldered and ready before he even really moves, and be able to get a shot off ...

but again even even even further ... that head of game isn't so important to ME that I'd rather be carrying hot just to make sure that I have better odds at getting it ...

A thought for general consumption, directed at no one in particular... I often hunt with new hunters... kids... and they usually have remarkable muzzle control, which I demand. Have taken more than one kid back before we were done because of transgressions of the sort...

They are not strong enough, coordinated enough or thoughtful enough to really be perfect about their muzzles. Everybody has to start somewhere. At what point is it okay to let the new shooter go hot?

I know last fall I walked behind a kid for a couple days to let him shoot some pheasants. I have shot many and letting him shoot until he was happy was better for me than it would ever be to shoot just acouple more birds. And I got mine anyway...

But where do you draw the line on others that might end up pointing a muzzle at you? You probably will not even see it when they do, either.
art

well, im 37. i killed 5 deer this year. i think 9 last year. all with a round in the chamber and i'd post pics but you'd likely make fun of my shaved head or camo pattern or something really important that us dumbphuncks do differnt than you alaskan gods of the hunt do. so why bother to try and prove a point?
you have your mind set and i doubt, even my all powerful Steyr, will drop a ND on your hard head.
hasta'

I've said multiple times here,that I'm four years old.I wasn't born until I discovered Big Stick.

Didn't get any deer this year.Only hunted once due to serious health problems,and that hunt was foiled due to some jackasses on ATV's riding into the wilderness area I was hunting.

Got about an 18 inch wide 3x3 last year,with my 454.Friend took a pic with his digital camera,but he dumped it before he printed it out for me.


WB.

I hear you, and while being somewhat sarcastic out of frustration, certainly meant no dig at you.

But, I think you're missing the point as well. Okay, sure it can happen. Safeties can fail. My point being, even so, exactly what do you think the chances of that, in combination with a loaded chamber, and in conjunction with some accident or act which is otherwise in and of itself not an unsafe act, that you could possibly ever shoot yourself or someone else? My god you've got to have a 10 times better chance of getting a bolt to the head out of the clear blue sky.

An admittedly fractionally "less safe" practice is being made out to be "unsafe", and that's just not the case.

On the other hand, take some dipchit with piss poor handling practices, and an unloaded firearm, and I'm not likin' his chances, or those of people around him, too much.

Simple question, how old are you?

Simple question-why do you want to know so bad?

I'm startin to go bald,if that helps you any.........

WB.

I am sure that even you will have to admit that unloaded guns can absolutely not injure anybody.

But loaded guns in the hands of those who are to dammed ignorant to know they are loaded, and to dammed stupid to keep them pointed in a safe direction certainly can.

The man that dares utter "I thought it was unloaded" after injuring another by way of a negligent discharge deserves to be on death row.

Point of information:
Every gun in my house is locked in the safe.

The ammo is locked in a cabinet in the reloading room at the other end of the house.

I guess I'm already set for all those safe firearms handling laws.

Simple question, curious as to your age, and your experience hunting.

no need for safties in AK

your played out. sell sincere somewere else. there are no "right" answers for you. if he's 60 he's an old fart if he's 25 he's a young kid.
lose-lose.
let it go and try to pitch the ball to someone else, like me. i've answred you. what do you have to say about my age? experience?
nothing, just that i hunt small land parcels. thats the best you'll have, too.
that or that i dont shoot highly customized rifles or some stupid crap.
you forget. I hunt.
thats all i need to tell you.
im not ashamed to say were, how, how many years, ect. know why. because im proud of my skills and my ethics. if thats a punchline to you so be it.

Have hunted since I was too small to hold a gun.My father used to take me hunting with him in a backpack.Started doing my own hunting as soon as I was big enough to shoot a rifle.

Like I said before,I'm 4.Pretty knowledgeable for a kindergardner huh?I owe it all to Stick.

WB.

dont waste your time.
steelhead aint just a fish.
its a state of mind.

Or you're ready to move to Canada! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> (Better be careful, don't want to get BCBrian in here tellin us how we can't buy cuban cigars now.....)

Really, no loaded firearms in your home? That's just another one I find unfathomable, from a personal stand point (but that's from previous professional experience and current living location more than anything). I've got all mine locked up in the safe, except for a handgun, which is pretty much readily available any time I'm home. In the safe there's one of each loaded, a handgun and a rifle. When I'm not home and it's not in my control, the glock is in the safe with the rest of them, locked up. But, if I'm there, I've got ready and instant access to a firearm, and that is without fail.

No matter what I say it's going to be the wrong answer,or he'll hold it against me,so I'm sticking with 4.

WB.

PS-for those of you that are curious-I'm an adult,can buy a drink in a bar,and until a day or two ago,had a beard down to my chest (shaved it off finally).I'm not some 10 year old kiddy,as S'head is alluding to.........

Funny how you can dance around a simple question Brian. How old are you?

Just curious, since you brought it up. Have you had any ND's with your sister?

zzzzzzzzzz...

Funny how you ask stupid questions,that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

And I already answered your question.I'm the world's only 6'2,250 pound bearded 4 year old.

I'm thinking about contacting Ripley's...........

WB.

I have five grandkids under the age of five with another on the way. All three families live within ten minutes of my house and most days of the week Momma is sitting with two to four of the little shavers.

The chances of one of my darlings getting hold of a nonsecured firearm is far more likely than my needing one for lethal force defense. And the results far less acceptable to me or Momma.

He77, until a couple years ago I had never owned a firearm with a barrel shorter than 22 inches. The need for lethal force self defense is not a pressing matter where and how I live.

I liken it to carrying a chambered round in the mountainous terrain where we hunt big game. I'd much rather lose a deer once in a while than take a 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance of killing my Dad or Son.

Well hey,
It's been real........... It's been fun...... BUT
It hasn't been real fun.

I just hope, you all hunt as safe as possible.
Always practice safe gun handling.
Have zero tolerance for people not being safe.

+1

WB.

bdan68 says:

"I'd sure like to take Big Stick pheasant hunting sometime, and see how well he does hunting with an unloaded shotgun!"


That'd be the first of many lessons I could teach you. I've seen me shoot a shotgun and Pheasants ain't much on the relative difficulty scale and I'd be happy to show you that,too.

The thing is...them that is poor with firearms,regarding both safety and skills,are comparing themselves to them that are plagued in neither department.

That'd be the slipperyest of slopes....................

Hunting out at Adak Island a couple of weeks ago, we had in our party some guys from Delaware. They carried one in the chamber, unbeknownst to me. We were piled up in an old 4 door pickup truck driving around the road system on one of those 60 mph wind days Adak is famous for.
One fellow reached back to get a sandwich out of his poke, and suddenly the ears began to ring from the discharge of his 270 WSM.
We cleared out of the cab, and sorted out the problem.
These D smokers all carried live ones in the chamber.
When they tried to tell me that was common practice back East, I told them somebody forgot to teach common sense.
I suggested that I would be returning to the car rental company to get my own rig, if this behavior continued.
We had just had a gun go off in the car, and these guys are trying to explain to me that this is ok.....
I decided that if that is how they really feel, then I don't need to be even withing range of these guys. I just drove back to town and got me my own rig for me and my son.
I refuse to be around hunters that keep a live on in the chamber.
By the way, My son and I collected 4 Meat caribou with 4 bullets total, to the group of 4 from Delaware that collected a total of 4. they missed shots, and wounded and lost 2 caribou they fessed up to.
I dunno, call me ,,, wanting to stay alive from getting shot from friendly fire....

alaskacanoe,
Everyone here,from both sides of the arguement,will tell you that a hot chamber in a vehicle is a 100% no-no.It is also illegal in every state,as far as I know.

WB.

Humble,as always...........

WB.

What a stinking piss fest this has turned into!!
I read the first few posts of this thread a few days ago and just wasted a good portion of my lunch hour reading too much more.
Fwiw i have been hunting for 45 years and have never had an accidental discharge while carrying hot nor do i personally know anyone who has either.
I have heard the stories of the friend of a friend etc having one.
When i hunt there is a round chambered.
As does everyone i have ever known save one man who had a wood left leg and used his rifle as a walking stick.
I dont climb in or out of a stand with one chambered and since i hunt on private land i dont worry about climbing a fence with a loaded rifle.
Would i carry loaded in very ruff terrain while walking?
No.
I dont carry a loaded rifle in a vehicle either.
When i am helping someone find a wounded deer i do insist they put their rifle away because i dont want someone behind me bringing up a loaded rifle when a covey of quail breaks cover and him over reacting thinking it's the wounded deer.
As for me i at that point do keep my bolt open simply because i have another human being in close proximity of me.
This thread reminds me of some of the motorcycle boards i am on when someone gets going about protective gear VS no protective gear.
The same damn circle is made over and over again.
Whatever guys.

But you just couldn't resist bringing it back to the top......

What the Hell are you talking about guy?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
All i did was respond to a 22 page thread.
We all have opinions you know.

I think 25 pages has got to be the new record.And to think I started it........Head hanging in shame.......grin.

As Al Bundy would say Oh god what a charade..........

dood ... with 2,379 posts and a join date of 12/04/05, you HAD to have known that this one wasn't going to be a simple thread with only a few replies and some meaningless banter ... if you didn't, you've been sleepwalking thru this site since you joined ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Never thought 25 pages of the same circle.I knew it would draw some posts but never 25 pages.It was a simple question with good answers.The drama queens took this one over at page 3.

definitely some good info on the subject, but buried in the thread betwixt stupid 'conversations' ... if you're willing to dig, the info is there ...

But oddly enough, for me, all that matters is that the more you carry with the chamber empty, the more you increase your odds that you're not going to shoot someone ... Like I said ... I do carry hot sometimes ... but I don't carry hot just because I've taken a step out of the truck or cabin or tent ... I need more of a reason that that to increase my chances of an accident being dire or fatal ...

I go hot from the time I leave in the morning.But like I stated before each has their own comfort zone.Should add while hiking only.Never any other times.

Change this:
in your display preferences.

I've only got 11 pages! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not as many times as we've heard "I swerved to miss a deer"
When folks screw up, they will say a lot of stupid things to soothe their bruised pride.

I thought the gun was unloaded = I screwed up bad and don't have a leg to stand on, so I will make the only move I got and try to excuse my ineptitudeness.


Empty pipes don't discharge, period..................Treating them as loaded is just icing.

RO

I just read through this whole thread. I hunt with one in the chamber while bird hunting and the chamber empty when out with the rifle. If I am on sign or getting close on the stalk its one in the chamber been doing this for over 30 years.
I hunt Newfoundland and have worked and hunted in the NWT, Nunavit and now hunt in Newfoundland and Labrador mostly wild country. I hunt a lot by anyones standards and have hunted seals commercially. I would never rag on someones lack of experience or try and bring them down for hunting via stands on small woodlots.Thats what those folks got. Anyone who belittles a man because of his lack of experience is a small man in my book.

That's all true,but note that you have a much greater chance of being injured or killed every time you get behind the wheel of a car.........or every time you climb in the sack with someone you don't know very well.

FWIW.

WB.

dood... give the stupid crap up ... we're not talking about driving a freakin' car ... we're talking about being as safe as possible while hunting ... I'm personally getting tired of all the idiots saying things like "well don't even get out of bed because you could slip and fall and bust your head open and die" ... or "don't drive cuz you could get in a wreck and die" ...

it's about HUNTING ... not about driving your car, or about slipping on the floor ... or about anything else ...

When you're hunting, an empty chamber is safer than a loaded one ... that's no opinion ... that's fact. You wanna argue that, too bad... it's just not possible ... however, you wanna say that you don't care to be that safe, that's another story ... and from what you've said thus far, that's exactly what you're saying ...

My reply was/is heap big humble.

The depths of the rampant stupidity,is pert'near amazing.

Dumb sons of bitches bragging that they can't do this and can't do that....but got carry hot,so they mebbe/might could do something/sometime?!?

Noone could make [bleep] like that up and that's the scary part...........................

Then how about an empty magazine as well? Wouldn't that be a little bit safer yet? I think WB is making some great points. Some of you that don't seem to feel safe putting one foot in front of the other with a loaded chamber, maybe should never drive a car either, since that is statistically much more dangerous than anything a person can do while hunting.

You're bragging on your stupidity again and I must concede your accuracy,in that department as you are taking stupidity,to a whole 'nuther level.

Less a shell in the chamber,the firearm is 100% safe,in that there is NO Earthly way it can be made to fire,on accident,or on purpose,less chambering a round.

Nothing more,nor nothing less,is required................

Never seen a striker fall on a round in a rifle's magazine, but I'd not be surprised if you had a rifle equipped to perform such a feat ...

please, say something more ignorant ... I'm not sure it can be done ...

Must be nice to be better, know more, and be smarter than most everybody else on this board, or in the entire world for that matter. I sure do appreciate this board and that I can come on here and be told how I've been doing things wrong all these years. If only I wouldn't have been born so stupid. I'll be sure to not state my opinion on here any more, as I'm sure no matter what I say, it will be wrong. I'll try to stick to only asking for advice from now on.

Statistically, being alive has a 100% chance of you not staying that way ... Can't know a single person that has ever escaped death, in the long run ... perhaps, if we're talking statistics, we should all just have never been born ... then there'd be NO WAY we could get hurt?

again, for all of you so challenged ... this isn't about the comparison between the risks involved in hunting vs. the other risks we expose ourselves to in life ... it's about minimizing the risks and subsequent consequences of the things we do ... for example, we all pretty much have to drive ... so to decrease the chance of serious injury to ourselves in the unlikely event of a wreck, we wear a seatbelt and have vehicles equipped with airbags and "crumble zones" ... but we still drive ... we just buckle up to be safer ...

same thing with hunting ... I don't chamber unless I need to ... I don't carry hot just because I got out of my truck ... I don't know how many times or ways that me and others will have to say that to make it clear... I'm not even criticizing your practices of carrying hot all the time ... I'm just absolutely stunned that almost NONE of you will even start to admit that your chances of being injured are LESS with a cold chamber vs. a hot one ...

That'd simplify matters greatly.

Close your yap and you'll learn something.....................

Why do I need to admit that? Isn't it obvious? That's the same reason you don't climb a fence with a loaded gun or carry a loaded gun in a truck, or walk around with the safety off. However much safer it may be, I still choose to hunt with a loaded gun. Sorry if you don't like it then that's too bad. IMO, I am not hunting, if I'm carrying an unloaded gun. That's the way I've been taught, by my dad, and other relatives, and the hunter's education course I took when I was 11 years old. I don't give a $hit if you hunt with an unloaded gun, but don't tell me I am "stupid" for not doing the same. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Of course your stupid.

But...look on the bright side,on what you've already learned,via this Thread alone.

1) An empty chamber is safe,as are rounds in the magazine
2) It don't take the unretarded,2 seconds to chamber a round
3) Not everyone marvels,when they hit a Pheasant,via scattergun

MUCH is obvious.....................