I read a thread in the Winchester Collectors forum

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...herweight-model-70-s-quality-quality-con

and some posters are saying that the Winchester M70's assembled in Portugal have one piece bolt/handle. This is quite a surprise to me. Can any of the M70 experts here confirm this? Redneck? RJ

I'm the poster that asserted that. The photos I posted very clearly show it is a one piece bolt. Pappy contacted Winchester and confirmed it. And I just called Winchester customer service/parts and confirmed that the Portugal guns have a one-piece bolt/handle.

I called and talked to a rep at BACO, and he confirmed that. “Just like the pre-64s” is what he said.

I have one on order. When it gets here, I’ll be an expert on that one.

Actually it shows the exact opposite. You can clearly see the cast bolt handle and collar where they meet the turned bolt body.

pappy, I saw your post where you called Winchester, but I still have a bit of doubt about what the guy you spoke said. I would like to see the number of M70 two piece bolt/handle's that actually failed compared to the number of M70's produced since 1964.As someone mentioned in the Win Collectors thread, I cannot imagine that Winchester would not jump all over the marketing opportunity to sell more rifles due to an enhancement that would for sure cost them considerable bucks to implement. If it is true, that's a good thing. Go Winchester! RJ

10 Glocks, I went back to your post on the Win Collectors forum and looked at the pic you posted of the Portugal bolt. To my eyes it sure looks like the handle and the bolt were made as 2 separate pieces. You can see the casting texture on the handle and the machined texture of the bolt where they are joined together. It looks damn fine assembly, but just like my S.C. gun's bolt. I am sure you already know this, but the Winchester bolt handle has a circular collar that is pressed over the rear splined end of the bolt body and it is brazed or silver soldered. The handle is not just tacked on the side like a Remington M700 bolt. The person you guys spoke to on the phone may have meant that the bolt was one piece in the sense that the bolt handle cannot be removed like you can with a Tikka or Savage. After looking at your picture, I'm still not convinced the bolt/handle is manufactured as one piece.. RJ

You could be right, and I could be wrong. But the bolt handle is clearly one piece with the portion of the bolt its attached to; they weren't two separate pieces brazed together, like the Remington 700. They are cast together. Now, it could be that there are two bolt sections brazed together, one piece with the handle on it. If that's the case, and I admit it could be, Winchester is doing a phenomenal job. I looked at all 4 bolts under a 90X jewelers glass and there is not the slightest hint of a gap/joint between pieces, or the 'overflow' of brazing material, which is visible on brazed joints on Remington 700s. They are perfectly mated together. As you know, the Remington 700 bolt is a three piece bolt. The head is brazed on, too. On all of my 700s, while there are no gaps between pieces, joints are evident. There is brazing material visible at the joints of the parts brazed together.

So, if I added to any misunderstanding, I apologize. I wanted to point out that the handle and the bolt are one piece (unlike the 700) but concede what I meant may not be what someone else meant by one piece. I think it's clear to anyone, though, that the design is very superior to the 700 design, and any fears that the bolt handle is somehow a weak link in the design is unfounded.

FWIW, when I talked to the guy at Winchester/BACO, I brought up the previous construction. He was pretty adamant about the new ones being one-piece. When I get my new one, I’ll try to puzzle it out. A true one-piece is preferable, but it’s not a deal-killer either way, just another raisin in my cookie. I have three 98s, a Ruger, and two Howas with one-piece bolts, so I can suffer one that’s not. In the unlikely event that I need to go into the vast Wild, I can take one of those, or get the M70 welded. All it takes is a small hole or slot where the two parts meet, then a weld, then dressing the connection.

Early Classics also had cheesy extractors you could bend into a horseshoe. A member of my club had a .458 from the Custom Shop and was headed to Africa, so he had that replaced. I read some time ago that those were now proper spring steel.

How many 98s, Springfields, and other converted military rifles have welded-on handles? How many Kimbers, Tikkas, CZ 527s, and other current models have handles attached to separate bolt bodies in various ways? Hell, even my sainted Fieldcraft has a separate handle, cleverly attached in a dovetail slot, then pinned. That pin keeps the handle in the slot, but bears none of the force.

Let’s all pray for an end to the Plague and hopefully its attendant excess of navel-gazing as well.😜

One can get a true one-piece replacement bolt for a 700 that also has a Sako-style extractor, and several choices of colors for the handle. You’ll still be stuck with the washer between the bar-stock receiver and barrel for a recoil lug and the various notoriously wonderful/terrible/suicidally-dangerous triggers though.😈

Well, if you ever read the various "sniper" sites, you would have thought the Remington 700 handles were falling off like dead ticks off a dog. I read one once from someone who wrote, "I seen five fall off today." But the complaints usually went like this, "I handloaded a .300 WM and the case got stuck in the chamber and I had to whack the bolt handle (that had an aftermarket knob welded on) with a 2x4 and it done broke off," followed by the chorus of peoples screaming "God damn Remington's quality." As far as I know, the military's a M24 sniper rifle didn't deviate from a brazed on handle and I have not see any indication they were problematic.

I think the concerns over brazed on parts is over blown. I think a lot of people tend to overstate the extent of problems, without providing the context in which the problem arose, followed by people who probably have no experience with the matter piling on.

Whether the current M70 is one piece or two pieces brazed together, don't know with 100% certainty. The man I talked to at Winchester did tell me, as well, that Winchester went back to a one piece bolt design. But who knows what that really means. What I do know is that if it is two section brazed together, they are doing a stellar job.

I will certainly agree with you guys that the assembled M70 bolt/handle unit is a superior design and it will certainly out last my old azz. I have one New Haven gun and one South Carolina gun and I am not worried about either coming apart on me.

No apology necessary 10Glocks, This has been a gentleman's discussion, sharing the way each of us see things. RJ

I used to belong to a hunt club in VA. Two members of that club had handles fall off of Remington 600s. It was sort of a running joke, actually.

Thanks. Civility is certainly conducive to learning and understanding.

Now, at the risk of blowing up some people's ability to load the page, here are some full res photos I just took of the bolt out of my .300 WM.

Edit: actually, they posted in much less than full res, but that's the best I can do.

Because the outer diameter of the bolt handle section appears to be somewhat smaller than the outer diameter of the bolt body, it very well could be pressed in, and probably is. I don't think anyone could disagree that the mating is exceptional. Not a gap or brazing material seen anywhere.

My 700 handles look glued on by comparison.

I'll try and take some photos of the bolt out of my Ruger M77 this weekend and post them for comparison.

I agree. Removing the cocking piece might give you better view, end-on, from the rear. The handle looks cast, again no big deal for this Ruger guy.

Is it an issue that it's one piece instead of two?

Only when the handle comes loose…..

True enough. Just like it is only an issue not having the flange on the bolt shroud on a New Haven gun, when you have a case rupture, as opposed to having the flange on the bolt shroud on a BACO gun. RJ

M 70 bolt info

The new flange is so small it actually doesn't do much. It's not at all like a flanged Mauser 98 bolt shroud.

Yes, but if I had a gas leak, I'd sure as hell rather it be with my S.C gun than my New Haven gun. RJ

Okay, so I agree it's a two piece design,. My mistake was assuming that the original concern was that the handle was tacked on like the Remington 700. It obviously isn't. The handle is one piece with a collar that slips onto the bolt body, and the collar is brazed on. (IMO superior to the Remington 700. The contact area of the brazed collar is significantly greater than the contact area where the 700 handle meets the bolt.)

I also said there is no evidence of brazing material and I think I am wrong there, too. My mistake there was believing the brazing material would be like that seen on the Remington 700 - a metallic bronze color. But the Winchester apparently uses copper. And I believe there is evidence of that in that area. One of my bolts has some turquoise coloring in that area that might be some left over copper, maybe some overflow, or from copper infused flux, that looks like it was perhaps polished then blued resulting in the bluing salts oxidizing the copper into its tell-tale turquoise color. That turquoise showed up on one of the earlier pictures I posted.

Which will only happen with misuse. It’s seriously a non issue.

It's a non-issue as long as the joining is done properly with sufficient brazing and a decent fit between the parts; just like Remington. This is not always the case. GD

Here’s another version of the story….

https://benchrest.com/showthread.php?76743-Model-70-Stripped-Bolt-Spline-Repair

My guess is that if any movement exists or develops between the two parts, trouble lies ahead.

I agree 100%. Look hard enough, you can find problems with anything. Even Leupold scopes.

Actually you wouldn't be able to tell much, if any differance. BTDT.

If one is really concerned about it send it to Accu-Tig.

But possibly enough difference to save an eye. RJ

I’ve been present at two whoopsies involving the wrong cartridge for the rifle. One was with an experimental P14 chambered in 7.92 Mauser fed a .308 by mistake. The other was a pre-64 rechambered from ‘06 to some .30 cal mag, but no so marked. Both shooters got some powder grains in their faces, and the P14 guy had a few bits of brass. The P14 sustained serious damage; stock broken around the mag well, bent floorplate, and the extractor broken into several pieces, one of which that hit me a couple of benches over. The M70 got a bent floorplate and the extractor came unhooked at the front, but nothing else. The smith at the shop where it was purchased straightened the floorplate over his thumb and re-attached the extractor. Without glasses however, that one could have been bad. I always wear glasses at the range, and have started wearing them most of the time in the field too.

You will still get plenty of gas in the face. That's why you should wear shooting glasses.

Yep, cheap and quick. I sent my 416 Rem bolt to him and had it back pronto. I took it with confidence to Zimbabwe for buffalo and plains game. Dirt cheap insurance.

Not necessarily, not all gas leaks are created equal. RJ

They don’t list the M70. Has anyone had one of those done there?

Pinning a Model 70 Bolt

EDm just mentioned above he had.

Did you miss the part where I said I have experienced a gas leak with a model 70 with a flanged bolt shroud? Even with a minor event you still get gas in the face.

Why would you consider this?

First, are there any credible accounts of M70 handles breaking off bolts? I've scoured the net and the best I can find are a few very anecdotal 2nd or 3rd person accounts, possibly duplicating each other, with no photos or any other sort of proof. If this were a thing even approaching an issue, wouldn't there be some evidence of it? Even the very few accounts of Remington 700 bolts coming off usually involve abuse, or some yahoo cutting a knob off his bolt handle and trying to weld on a tacticool knob without taking the precaution of using a heat sink and heat absorbing paste to keep the brazed joint from getting compromised.

Second, (with no intent to disparage anyone's work) brazing is a incredibly strong bond, applied over a large area, with moderate heat that doesn't involve melting the bonded metals. From all accounts I've read, brazing produces a bond that is as strong or stronger than the bonded metals. And again, that bond is applied over a larger area than a weld. Welding requires much higher heat such as to melt the bonding metals. Can't applying a weld to a spot on a brazed joint compromise the brazing? It seems it can. Then you are left with a small spot weld holding two pieces together that was held together by a larger area of brazing, probably resulting in a weaker joint, not stronger. To satisfy my own curiosity, I talked last night about it with my son who hold multiple welding certifications and does welding on aircraft carriers and submarines. He seems to think the same thing. And he says tig welding has its own challenges so that you don't end up with a weak weld. Given that many of his own welds have to be xray inspected since they are on critical parts of warships, I'd tend to go with that.

I just don't see the issue here. There are next to no proven accounts of M70 bolt handles breaking off. With the number out there, you'd think there would be some. Nothing really but anecdotes. But if having a weld put on brings peace of mind, go for it. But you may be doing more harm than good.

I just posted a link to one, that includes the fix.

I consider lots of stuff; sometimes I even do them.

I first became aware of this from a piece by Brian Pearce, an extremely practical guy with experience matched by very few. Yes it does happen; he’s seen it, and so have others. Darcy Echols is perhaps the premier M70 builder, and if he has gone to the trouble to craft a preventative measure, you can be sure there’s a reason.

Factories often come up short when it comes to putting together even well thought out designs. No doubt the intent is to produce a strong assembly, but if something goes awry, how can you tell until it fails, since the joint is so well concealed that with the bolt in hand, you had a hard time detecting it? It’s not hard to picture how a bad brazing job, a faulty casting, etc could permit a failure to occur, especially with “brisk” operation. Stuck cases, and other difficulties happen, and while I’m not one to hammer on a bolt handle, I have had to give a few a good slap to get them open.

All that said, I probably won’t have any modification done to mine unless I notice some play, or in the very unlikely case that I decide to go off someplace where I can’t easily go to a backup rifle. Since I have several 98s, taking one of them would be the wise move there.

Exactly Ben. While I don't wear glasses in the field, I never (and I do mean never) practice or bench shoot without glasses. It's just something everyone should do automatically.

As to the new M70 having a 1 vs. 2-piece bolt mfg, I frankly can't tell comparing my Portugal made M70 vs the older 1990's Connecticut made ones in my stable. My guess is it's two piece, just more finely manufactured.

I really don't care...

just more finely manufactured.

I really don't care...


I don’t care much either. Like I said before, it’d just be another raisin in the cookie. I ordered mine before all this started believing it was an assembly, not a real one piece. Perhaps the folks in Portugal have addressed this in some way.

I would ask if anyone knows about a Portuguese model failing, but I think I’ve had enough of all this. My O/U came back from CZ and I’m gonna go shoot it😜

"Did you miss the part where I said I have experienced a gas leak with a model 70 with a flanged bolt shroud? Even with a minor event you still get gas in the face"


No BWalker, I did not miss that part. Would you have rather been shooting the New Haven gun when you had that gas leak? I think not. The flange added to the bolt shrould on the Baco guns was a design change that made the M70 safer, and that is better, like it or not. End of story. RJ

Not true - the last year or so New Haven, CT USRAC's (2005/2006) had the gas flange. BACO didn't design it, they inherited it.

While it's obviously better than nothing, it certainly isn't in the same league as a Mauser gas flange.

Maybe that reason has something to do with money. All I'm saying is is that there seems to be a real lack of actual evidence out there that these handles are problematic. It seems to me that some of the ones that are trying to convince consumers that they have a rifle just waiting to break are the ones with a "fix" to sell.

This brazing process has, by accounts here in this thread, been a standard manufacturing process for 57 years. 57. And only a handful of anecdotal accounts of failures. Heck, even Remington 700 failures are few and far between, and everyone agrees Winchester's method is better than Remington's. No recalls, not photos, no verifiable accounts, no change in manufacturing process. I just don't see it.

Gun owners can talk themselves into worrying about anything. To me, this is a non-issue. But for my own curiosity, I'm going to take a M70 and M700 bolt to my neighbor. He is an instructor at the welding school at our local shipyard - probably the finest welding school in the world. He's been a welder there for 40 years and has worked on just about every Navy ship and submarine that has been at that yard. I want to see what he says and get his opinion on whether or not welding on a small parts brazed together is in any way help or harmful.

Read the link I posted.

Brad, I wasn't aware of a gas flange on late New Haven guns. I will agree with you that it is better than nothing, but not as good as the Mauser gas flange. RJ

I already read it. So what. 2 anecdotal accounts of a handle coming off with no context.

What other evidence would there be besides anecdotal? Why would you need context? The handles came off.

Because context matters.

When I read that someone is blaming Remington quality because they overloaded a .300 Win Mag, got the case stuck in the chamber, then banged on the handle with a mallet or 2x4 and the handle breaks off, it's not Remington QC at fault, it's the idiot that abused his gun.

When I read that someone ground off the knob on a 700 bolt and tried to weld a tactical knob on without using a proper heat sink or heat absorbing paste, damaging the brazing and causing the handle to come off, or without removing the handle altogether before performing his flawed procedure and then reattaching the handle, and then complains that 700 handles are defective, my conclusion is the poster was an idiot.

So, "the handles come off." Under what circumstances? Echols is a custom gun builder. Was the joint subjected to high heat during another procedure? Under what circumstances did the original person's handle come off?

Again, context matter. If we don't know the context, if we don't have some objective way to make sure the account is reasonably accurate and raises a real concern, then its just useless hearsay.

Time to "un-watch" this thread.

I thought this was interesting. Seems to support that there is really no such thing has having a proper weld and braze on the same small part. Welding can destroy the braze, and the brazing material can compromise the weld, unless the two parts are complete separated and the braze material completely removed before welding.

If you were going to have something done, Echols pin that is silver soldered in seems far more compatible with brazed parts than simply adding some tig welding to the area.

https://weldingtroop.com/can-you-weld-over-a-braze/

The problem Glock, is that you don’t care about context. I’ll give you an example. This happened to me. I was in a local gun shop. The gentleman beside me wanted to look at a Remington 700 of some flavour. So the guy behind the counter brought him out a box filled with his request. The guy opened the box, took the rifle out of the bag, took the bolt out of the bag. Married the two and upon opening the bolt the handle came off.

Now, this is anecdotal. So not good enough for you I know

One thing’s pretty certain. Echols sells all the $12,000-$15,000 M70s he can turn out, because he attends to the details. I doubt he needs to nickle and dime the folks. That story said he retrofits all the ones that come back in for some reason, and for free.

The welds I have seen have been on just a small cut or hole at the edge of the transition, kinda doubt they compromise anything when done properly.

Okay; I’m over this one.

He's not welding. He's drilling a hole, sticking in a pin, and silver soldering it in place. Like pinning a flash hider on a AR barrel. Silver soldering may not compromise a brazed joint because it doesn't get hot enough. Welding, which melts the actual steel, can. Two different things.





If you say so. But if true, how often do you think that happens? (BTW, I've never bought a new Remington 700 ever that had a rifle or bolt come in a bag, and I've owned more than a few, but whatever.) So now we have your anecdotal account of a brand new, unbagged Remington 700 with a handle that just comes off. Add that the post on one of the Sniper websites of a guy who said "I seen five fall off today," and forum post which I think is still out there somewhere of a guy who just happens to carry five broken Remington bolts around in his pocket so he's ready at any moment to show just how bad they are, and we suddenly have all the evidence we need. Hell, with all that, I think I'm convinced.

He's not welding. He's drilling a hole, sticking in a pin, and silver soldering it in place. Like pinning a flash hider on a AR barrel. Silver soldering may not compromise a brazed joint because it doesn't get hot enough. Welding, which melts the actual steel, can. Two different things.



The welds I was referring to aren’t Echols’ work. Either a small hole was drilled or a small cut was made, both across the junction, then the gap was filled with a small weld and dressed. Keeps the parts from turning in relation to each other.

There is zero effective difference between the two and I have expiereanced both.
You have no first hand expiereance in this yet seem to want to argue about it. If the mini flange gives you a sense of security have at it, but I can assure you that sense is very false.

Maybe you could call Accu-Tig and ask them. After all we are really on a mission to sort fly chit from pepper here.

What your not considering is that a micro tig imparts very little heat into the joint. It may comprise a small part of the brazing, but a very small part and the resulting join is much stronger than the brazed piece.

Not according to this. These are small parts. TIG welding imparts far more heat than the brazing operation. The fact is, welding involves MELTING the parent steel. That heat is not going to just stay a one point, it's going to be conducted throughout the small parts that have been brazed.

Ideally, the brazed parts need to be separated, the brazing material removed completely, then the two parts welded back together.









https://weldingmastermind.com/can-you-tig-weld-over-brazing/

Your googling and guessing.
Tig applies heat to a very small area compared to mig, stick, and brazing. Very focused. Micro TIG even more so.
And to really blow your mind you can use copper filler with a TIG just like Winchester uses to make the original joint.

Joining steel to steel with copper is brazing, not welding. And is that even the thing that's being done to "fix" this allegedly widespread and dangerous problem? Isn't brazing the reason all these people are at risk of being trampled by buffalo from handles that just break off? I'm under the impression that "welding" is being used as the solution.

And yeah, I google, And I ask. Because I, unlike you, don't pretend to be an expert in something I'm not. Internet welding resources that are spot on subject say you're wrong, World-class welders I personally know who don't have a service to sell, and whose welding skills and knowledge come from world-class welding schools and whose welding skills mean the difference between a submarine being crushed or its crew living, say you're wrong. I am inclined to go with the actual experts. So, believe what you want.

If you aren't making sure your "fix" is being done properly, you very well may end up with a situation that's worse, not better. But whether or not you [bleep] up your guns is your problem, not mine. People that read this thread can make up their own minds. I'm done with it. Have a good day.

That... A handful? Maybe? Sure tons less than the poor bastids with Remingtons...

You are googling because you don't have a clue. Then you find something you think supports what you believe and run with it. I've been working in power plants and refineries for years where bad welds kill people. Might know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two.
And BTW I never suggested using copper filler with a tig is welding..reading comprehension and all.

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