I have no intention of getting into varmint hunting at this point, but I have been a little interested in the Hornet class of cartridge for use on small game, turkey, and plinking. Plus if I ever do need to flatten a charging groundhog I'll already be equipped.

Obviously the Hornet is far more common, and the Bee offers a bit more speed. Lets say we are going to acquire a basic custom barrel with a .224 bore, with a twist rate appropriate for bullets up to and including 55 grains at max velocity for those two cases. Handloading is a given, so that the spectrum of loads from rabbit collectors and turkey harvesters up to groundhog stoppers can be developed.

What are the practical pros and cons of those two cartridges? Case life, brass quality, neck grip, etc?

The 223 is your baby......................

I have a browning micro abolt in 22 hornet It is an awsome little cartrige! I shoot 40 grain vmax at 3000 fps with lilgun powder.flat smokes everything to 250 yrds.No experiece with 218 bee.

Love my Hornet Classes. Have three Hornets, two I am working on and I also shoot their bigger brothers the 25-20 and 32-20. For low noise, no recoil fun shooters, they can't be beat. I have a .222 and 22-250, but there are times when I just want to stalk some game and not worry about the next county or pissing off the neighbors. The Hornet will put a fox down in a hurry and my 25-20 with the Speer 75 gr JFP has accounted for its share of Coyotes over the last couple of years. They are fun guns to shoot. I haven't gotten into the Bee yet, but I am sure eventually I will. Have a friend that has one in a custom single shot he built. He likes it, but agrees the Hornet is just easier and cheaper to deal with. Ryan

If I were looking for a general plinker right now, in the smaller .22s, and were being even remotely practical, the list would go like this:

.223 Remington
.222 Remington
.221 Remington
.22 K-Hornet
.22 Hornet

And I'd stop right there.

That said, what you're looking for; i.e. a turkey rifle and a small game (edible, I assume) is a tough combination. Any of those rounds with an other-than-head-shot will blow up small, edible, game, and on turkeys, you'd better head/neck/neck-body juncture shoot'm.

55 grs. is stretching it for the .221 Fireball, and she's my favorite of the bunch. The Fireball is far better with 53 grs and under, really singing with 40s to 50s. The Hornet gets stretched at 50 grains, and is far better kept in the 30-40 gr. range. The K-Hornet basically equals the .221 Fireball.

The .222 and .223 work great on up to and through the 55 gr. weights.

If weight is important to you, stay with the larger two.

If I had to narrow the list to two, I'd keep the K-Hornet or .221 Fireball, and the .223.

If the .223 doesn't horn you up ('cause for some of us, it just doesn't), take your choice between the .221 and the K-Hornet. Either will give enough to anchor 'yotes to 150ish; same with turkeys (and that's a SMALL target), and groundhogs, etc., at twice that distance. And those are conservative ranges...

Rem. makes chambers all but the Hornet and K; CZ all of them (except the K, obviously), and Ruger's 77-22 Hornet is a dandy of a donor for K pursuits.

Ah . . . yup.

Its the way to go for cheap efficient handloading of 224 bores. A great plinker with Milsurp also.

Note, by the way that Big Stick is a serious 22 K-hornet slut and will readily recommend the Ruger 77/22 Hornet to potnetioal candidates.

BMT

Have done a 218 mashburn years ago, now have a 221 fireball and 223.

The beauty of the 223 is with blue dot, it becomes a 22 hornet. It also has milsurp, and full patch as well.

The hornet is a neat round, but regarding brass quality and flexibility, you can't beat the 223.

I guess I am the only "Jose" here who is going to answer your question straight up. I shoot and handload for both, I have no axe to grind with either, as both shoot well enough to fill in those slots, where a 223, or 220 Swift might be little much, in 22 cal that is.

The 218 Bee, certainly is easier to load than the Hornet, due to case configueration, and a more prononuced shoulder, the Bee also appears to be be less particular as to powder charge and bullet selection. Also you can load a Bee "down" to Hornet levels, but not a Hornet to Bee levels. If you can find a load for a Hornet, they are tack drivers, and a lot of fun to shoot. Most of the guys I hang around with, and this applies to rifles that are not considered "classics", turn their standard Hornets into "K'S" and then they rave about them.

Just some stuff for your thoughts.

Good shooting

Jerry

The Hornet isn't much of an edible game rd. unless you stay with head shots. Just too fast and it opens too quick. I find the .25-20 far more practical as a meat round with it's slow 86 gr. bullets. You can also push 60 grainer fast enough to be pretty explosive. A wildcat rd. on the .221 case ?
They are availible in small light rifles like the Ruger. But so is the .223.
No doubt you can do more with a .223.
The Hornet is lots of fun and quiet. You can load it down as well to equal the .22 RFM or even less. I've found the Remington 45 gr. HP's, for instance, don't open too fast on eddible stuff, at least some of the time. Loaded down, they be better. E

I completely agree with VAnimrod's assessment. Have never owned either a Hornet or Bee. In my estimation the .221 Fireball comes closest to covering the ground of both of these rounds. My .02 cents worth.

The FB has better brass available to it,as well as logistics.

The 223 will do everything mentioned and then some,as well as doing it cheaper than anything else.

Win/win....................

"What are the practical pros and cons of those two cartridges? Case life, brass quality, neck grip, etc?"

The .223 Remington is the answer, but if you do want to keep the power level down the .221 Fireball is the next best answer - it's what the Hornet should have been in the first place.

The Hornet's neck is too long and sloped to headspace off of it. The K-Hornet is better in that regard. Hornet brass is pretty thin. Not a big problem if you're careful but you can crush those mouths pretty easily. The Hornet's long sloping shape also contributes to lengthening - more a theoretical problem but it's still something that the Fireball doesn't have to worry so much about.

I've owned something like 4 Hornets that I can remember off the top of my head - Kimbers and T/C Contenders in pistol and carbine form - and all but the 10" Contender were finicky as hell. Hornet chambers were/are typically sloppy - the only head separations I've ever had were in Hornets. Maybe that's just me but thought I'd mention it.

Never had a .218 Bee, haven't known many people who did and therein lies it's problem. You just don't see them around much, so if you ever did decide to sell there wouldn't be much of a market.

Only had one Fireball but it was in a production T/C Carbine barrel and it shot better with more different loads than any of my Hornets (except that aforementioned 10" Contender) and better than my custom chambered K-Hornet from the get-go.

If you're going to the trouble of getting a custom barrel and want less oomph than a .223 then I'd strongly recommend the Fireball.

Can all of you guys please explaine how you can put the 221 fireball ahead of the 222 Rem. for any reason. Never heard that it is more accurate and it definately lacks power.,and 222 Rem can be loaded down to 218 Bee power. What gives?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The only reason I mentioned the FB,is because that is all the capacity it takes,to do dastardly 400yd deeds.

The Deuce never showed me anything and the 223 is easily KING.......................

the 221FB produces velocity all out of proportion to it's size....I had one in a 26-1/2" tube on a Rem 700 that pushed the 40 VMax to 3680.....I was a bit surprised....16 grs of LilGun did the deed.

I have a Hornet, a Fireball, and a Triple Deuce in the safe now. I sold my .223 a while back but still have access to a friend's.
I take the Hornet to the dance about 90 % of the time because it does the job I need to do around here. Most of the shots I take at crows or groundhogs are on the sunny side of 200 yards. The Hornet handles these with ease and is a bit more quieter than the others. Stick and others that shoot a bit farther than I do need the speed a .223 affords. They prolly shoot at critters a little bigger than I do also. Unfortunately there are not too many wolves or moose here in the piedmont NC. But for smaller game like foxes, crows, and groundhogs the little Hornet will get her done.
Some have mentioned that the Hornet is a bitch to load, but I think that most problems arise from users trying to get 3500 fps from that miniscule case. Keep handloads in the range that they were intended for and I think you will be impressed with what it will do with 11 or 12 grains of Lil Gun, WW680, or AA1680.
It is not a speed demon, but is a very efficient cartridge. I have only had one Hornet that would not shoot and it was a HR Handi Rifle that had an honest 17-pound trigger pull. All others have been shooters with several loads.

I have a pair of older Winchester 43's a cheap bolt gun.One is in 22 Hornet and one is in 218 Bee. Both shoot very well for what they are. From your inquiry it sounds like you want either cartridge not any of the others people are mentioning.I know how that goes,I get the bug to try something and do it even though there are many others to choose from,some maybe better or more "all around". If I had to choose I would go with a 218 Bee.I really like the cartridge and feel it shoots a little better and is slightly easier to reload.The Hornet has never had a reputation for extreme accuracy but it shoots well for mr.As mentioned before its case can be weak and tends to stretch with repeated loadings.I do not hotrod either of the two as the 43 action is not particularly strong.I use them both for target shooting and plinking and varmints. The BEE is the one my 15yr old son thinks is his and its a good one for him to be acquainted with and learn marksmanship.I have been using 35gr Hornady V-Max in it because it shoots so well.I have just bought some various 40 and 45 grainers to test.I have thought of making the Hornet a K-Hornet which is a simple job of just running a reamer into chamber and giving it a shoulder.Guys I have talked to who have done so are very pleased with the results.I don't know if my old Win. is a good candidate for it though.Anyway, you asked for advice on the two and I would go with the 218 Bee after that my second would be a K-Hornet if I were having one built. Both are great cartridges,fun to shoot, and cheap to reload.Have fun

The 223 may be KING, but the 222 Mag is KINGER. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Don

Gotta weigh logistics.

Have said often and maintain the course,that "free" brass is never a bad thing.

That's but only one of main layers of the frosting................

What E said.

Hard to beat the .25-20 Win. with heavy bullets for body shots on turkeys and other of the larger varieties of edible small game.

I think we may have gotten off the track here a bit. The guy asked for comments on the Hornet and Bee! Maybe we should give him the information we have in regards to those "two" cartridges. All the others are great, but he did specify Bee and Hornet.

Jerry

Right on, Jerry.

CouchTater,
The Hornet and Bee both suck hugely for use on small game, unless headshooting everything, in which case, most anything will work.

And in which the 223 is KING.....................

Couchtater says he will be handloading. In that case, the Bee is definitely superior. In factory ammo, it suffers because flat nose bullets are required for safe use in lever action Marlins and Winchesters.

I reckon the 223 will outpace it,out agg it,be cheaper to shoot and a touch more flexible.

Them is good things,in my book...................

In the realm of the pipsquek 22 centerfires, ie hornet, bee and fireball, the fireball wins in quality brass, guns, and performance.

That said you simply can't beat the 223 remington, cheapest 22 centerfire brass, when you have to pay for it, cheap milsurp, and if you want 22 hornet performance, just load 14 gr of blue dot under a 40-50 gr bullet of your choice. I've run such loads in a 223, and it is exactly that, hornet equivalent and in a good gun accuracy is all you can want. And don't take my word for it http://www.jamescalhoon.com/tobee2.php

I'm a big Hornet fan. Never owned a Bee, but had a chance to buy one in a No 1 Ruger. But, since I had a Hornet....

But a Hornet is not good with 55 gr. bullets. Too slow. If you're planning on using those, I'd go with a .223.

I've got a 25-20. Nice rifle, but it's not got the accuracy for long range because it's got open sights on it. Kimber made a run of about 100 of them, and one is available for about $1500, but that's too much for my pocket.

Both the Hornet and the 25-20 share a problem; the case is pretty limited. L'il Gun powder and 35 gr. V-Max bullets has made the situation better for the Hornet, but you're still limited in velocity. I don't know about the Bee.

I have a .218 in a Ruger # 1. The more I shoot it the more I like it. I like 40 gr. bullets best but, I did shoot a coyote with a 35 gr. v-max. It was 176 yards, lasered. It dropped in it's tracks and never quivered. And it really worked good on prarie dogs too. I've shot a couple of rockchucks with it, it's not real explosive but it kills them dead. It's really a fun little cartridge. My uncle has a hornet in a cz. We shoot a lot together and although the bee is a little faster I can't really see much difference in the way they shoot and kill.

The Hornet is easier for me to find around here. The K hornet is a fun round too.

I suppose those who can't handle the recoil of a 223 would benefit from the Hornet or the bee. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm just kidding.

The 256 Win Mag is a pretty good cartridge for the purposes that you've cited. 86 grain Remington 25-20 bullets for things that you want to eat and 60 grain Hornadys for things that you just want to kill.

Jeff

CouchTater,

Of the two rounds you mentioned the Bee is the better, If you handload. Hornet stuff is a bit cheaper. The Bee is very slightly hotter. The Bee has enough shoulder to headspace on if you like. The standard Hornet does not but the K version does. RWS brass for the Hornet was/is supposed to be very good but I haven't seen any. Bee cases can be formed from a number of others if needed. Case life at full loads is likely to be better with the Bee. Based on your criteria I would would go with a Bee in a 1-12" barrel.

What kind of action are you considering?

Best regards,

TBP

Well, a T/C Contender carbine seems to make sense. I'd want to have a custom aftermarket barrel made, in order to get the twist rate I want and to make sure the chamber was done properly. Being a southpaw, its futile looking for off the shelf hardware, so if and when I do this it'll be a semi-custom proposition from the get-go. The Contender carbine platform seems like a great idea; buy an accurate .22LR and be able to add a varmint barrel to it.

Nothing wrong with the .223, its just at the wrong end of the varmint power scale. I want power in the .22LR/.22WMR to Hornet range, not the Hornet to .223 Rem range. Not a whole lot of 300 yard varmint shooting around here, or even 200 yard, so the bigger cartridge would be a waste. I've run across .223 loads down to Hornet levels, but I assume the Hornet and Bee cases are better suited to .22 Mag and .22 LR light loads.

Had a custom 218 mashburn bee contender tube cut and results were so/so. I'd figured it should shoot teeny tiny groups, but it was hardpressed to break moa, and I tried about 1/2 dozen bullets and powders. It was one of the most disapointing rounds I've ever worked with. I don't know if it was a die issue or brass issue, but only one or two combos broke 1", and those were 3 shot groups <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I'd considered getting custom br dies made, but it just didn't seem worth the effort. I could print 1/2" groups with my 6.5 GR round pusing 120's 2400 fps, so it wasn't a gun or shooter issue.

I'd say go 221 fireball and have the barrel cut to take rimmed brass as well. I like rimmed cases in the contender, and the 360 DW case is a rimmed version of the fireball, blown straight.

I've never understood handloading to 22lr performance levels, lots of labor and more money for the same results.

That's what I'm looking for.



That may be the deciding factor right there. Some percentage of Hornet owners feel the need to go to the K-Hornet configuration, but I've never read about anyone doing a Bee Improved. So maybe as designed the Bee does a better job.

I know even less about the Fireball, I'll have to do some web surfing and read up on it.

As for edibles, I would think a 55 grain FMJ spitzer or cast RN at a velocity under 1600 fps shoudn't be too destructive.

I've owned 2, 218 Bees. Both lever actions. Got bored with open sights and Speer 46 gr. flat nose bullets. Don't get me wrong, they shot great for what they were designed to do.
But....the Hornet in a good bolt or single-shot is great!
Have owned a Savage 340(cheaply built gun) Ruger 77,(barrel went south) and presently have a Hornet in a Ruger #1 with a Loupie 6X18. It's a little heavy for a walking varmiter and would really prefer another Ruger 77. (love the rotary mag)
So...I'd vote HORNET <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Virgil B.

CouchTater,

Well, a steeper shoulder wouldn't hurt the Bee, but really there is not much point. I've had Hornets and Bees and like them both. I think the Bee is a better round but there is a lot more Hornet support. A Ruger 1A would make a nice Bee. Your 1600 FPS load will be fine small game with either bullet.

Best of luck,

TBP

The K-Hornet is an invaluable mind-blowing tool.

We all toss the dainty V-Max at 3400fps+ and she crunches [bleep] nicely.

Which is why the 223,is soooooooooooo sweet..............

CouchTater,

I noticed midway lists factory barrels for the Hornet, KHornet and 221 Fireball. That might be a inexpensive way to test your concept with one of these calibers. If you wanted something else it seems like the used market for those barrels is pretty strong. They all seem to be 1-12" twist which should work for your application

Good luck,

TBP

Couchtater: I load a Lyman 55 grain gas check bullet, in front of a charge of SR4759, vels around 1600 fps, in the Hornet. I learned that even with this load, shooting squirrels here in Arizona, unless you head shoot them, they are ruined.

Jerry

Very true about the destruction of meat with the Hornet.

I have Hornets in Contender handgun and Handi-Rifle. I don't reload for that caliber and went with the Hornet due to availability and price of ammo. If reloading, I might go with the Bee. Once you have the components, the rest is immaterial.

I was hunting coyotes with the Hornet and decided to take a squirrel that was harassing me - and I was hungry for fried squirrel. I hit him in the neck and it still tore the front shoulders up. Even 22 WMR is too much for East Texas squirrels!

Did you notice that the OP stopped posting on this site back in 2008?

probably stroked out when obama was elected

i shoot alot of critters close to my home with a Ruger 77/22 hornet i like that is has less noise than many bigger 22 cartridges and brass cases are easy to buy , but i do wish it was a k-hornet like some of my other k-hornet rifles and i just might rechambered this rifle too.

I have had a 22 Hornet, but now own a 17 AH.........blows the crap out of small critters!!

Of the two the OP asked about I would go 22 Hornet. Easier to find brass. My 77/22 Hornet is just fun and really that’s what it’s about. I have and enjoy the 223 and 22-250 as well, but I enjoy the Hornet for what it is.

GreggH

30/06.

Thank me later.

CouchTater: I have had a LONG and not successful much at all relationship with the 22 Hornet cartridge and MANY Rifles of several brands/models in that caliber.
I have a modicum of experience with the 218 Bee and currently own two of them that both "impress" me accuracy and performance wise.
One is a Ruger #1-B with 26" barrel and the other is a Kimber 82-B.
I will spare you the details but I will strongly recommend the 218 Bee over the 22 Hornet for accuracy, ballistics, ease of reloading and brass life (I have ruined a LOT of Hornet cases over the last 50+ years!).
Best of luck if you decide to go with one or the other.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Never had a 22 Hornet. Have owned three 218 Bees ( Kimber 82, Ruger #1, Marlin 1894). In the end, I sold all of them, and use my 222 Remington ( Sako A1 Varmint, 1 -14" twist) for woodchuck hunting.

Reason? I can easily load my 222 down to 1800-2400 fps levels (22 Hornet /218 Bee equivalents), for close shots, making them (Hornet, Bee) disposable...and they were sold. I also used to own/shoot Marlin bolt action 22 magnum detachable mag rifle for chuck hunting in more settled areas ( wanting less grain vmax. I just came to the realization that I could simplify things just by loading down my 222 Rem for those tighter shots ( 12.5 grains 4227 and a 50 grain bullet for maybe 2400 fps?? no chrono. Quiet and sub moa accurate. Perfect for my needs. Sold the Bees, but thoroughly enjoyed shooting them and admiring the rifles themselves.

I liked shooting the Bee. Due to the sharper shoulder, brass will stretch less than the Hornet. Both give a lot of shooting per pound of powder, and are fun to shoot (quiet, but potent). I wouldn't try to shoot 55 grain bullets in either of them, I'd stick with 40-50 grain bullets (1-14" twist). A 22 K- Hornet is in the same group, and would have longer case life due to its sharp shoulder (less brass lengthening on shooting, requiring less case trimming).

Since you are a lefty, and considering a T/C custom platform, you may want to include the 32 H&R mag or 357 mag as options. You can load these down to super quiet loads ; 32 or 38 special wadcutters), and have a blast plinking. Low cost brass, and enough power for charging garden chucks and bigger stuff ( up to deer at woods ranges with the 357 mag). It would be a great squirrel gun too with wadcutters (32 or 38 spcl). Just another thought to consider. It would be a versatile, fun, effective and low-cost platform.

thank you for answering the op ? , don't you love it when everyone goes off the road about other.

Yeah, between a 22 hornet or 218 bee and all one guy can say is get a 223. Why not a 22-250? That would be my choice... I've kicked around the idea of a 22 Hornet only because I have several hundred pieces of brass and the dies. Would end up shooting cast in it.

So typical of the 24hourcampfire crew. Whatever you do, don’t read anything else and keep on pushing your idea anyway.

If the OP were to tune back in, he would be best suited to get the Hornet for various reasons. The Hornet is easier to get brass for and it has a long neck that will allow modern polymer tipped bullets to be seated and still shoot in older rifles.

The short neck on the Bee, won’t allow you to seat a VMax bullet in the case and still have that cartridge fit into the older gun magazines that were designed for the stubby round nosed bullets of that era.

i dearly love the hornet its cheap to load and i concider it a 150 yd gun just like the bee in just about every respect the bee is better little more vol stronger brass ect but the hornet just fits the 150 yd small game so well i actually never really shoot the 218 much i always reach for the hornet