If hunting in big bear country which would be more appropriate?

I’m thinking the .338 Fed with 210 partitions or some Flavor of a TTSX might be the trick, and in a lighter rifle. Thoughts?

I'd go for maximum horsepower and quality bullet construction.

I would go for whichever rifle I was most confident in and was most comfortable carrying to increase the chance of it actually being close by when the bear shows up. Either loaded with a good bullet designed for penetration will get to the vitals. I would lean toward a mono personally since your muzzle velocity and impact velocity are going to be awfully similar in a defense situation and monos will open great and penetrate at those high speeds.

A lot of the 338 Federal rifles I have seen had shorter barrels (22" or less) which I like in brushy country. I would think you would still get good performance with the Federal in an 18-20" package which would be darn handy. Certainly the '06 will work with 18-20" also but then you might as well be carrying a .308, also a reasonable choice.

The 338Fed really doesn't offer much over the 308 or 30-06.

I suspect some they/thems like it cuz it's different.

I doubt any animal would be able to tell a noticeable difference between the two chamberings, assuming similar bullet selection. So I would go with whichever particular rifle you'd rather carry.

Back about 20 years ago i was talking to some Inuit, Seal hunters about what guns they were using, to kill Seals And Walrus, they said .223 I said what about Polar Bears?? That's when we bring out the .243s, some times it helps to talk to the people that are killing critters they usually know what it takes to do the job, with out a lot of B.S. Rio7

Have you ever tried a 200gr partition in a 30-36? If not, you should look into it. It will out penetrate that 210 .338 pill from the 338 Federal. I'd pick the good ol 30-06 with that bullet, personally. But then again, it would also depend on what rifle it's housed in and your style of hunting and what you want to carry.

Having owned and shot both quite a bit, I doubt there is much difference between the 2. I'd run a 185 TTSX in the Federal to 2700 or a smidge more or a 175 LRX/180 TTSX in the 06 at a smidge under 2800. I suspect penetration to be about the same and frontal area of the expanded bullets to be about the same. And thus arrive at same:same.

I’m not real sure that .03” more in bullet diameter will make a lot of difference in the end result of making an animal dead or not, but I have read that animals do show more reaction to being shot with a larger diameter bullet.

I guess I just never ran into the same fellas you did. I put in 8 years repairing generators, heavy equipment and delivering marine cargo from Attu to the MacKenzie Delta, YT. As a generalization, I can safely say one thing, they use what they happen to have.

In truth the 06 loaded with a new mono like Hornady’s CX 190 grain bullet with a .575 BC at 2,700 fps smokes the 338 Fed hands down. Forget far downrange, the 210 grain Partition in a 338 Fed can’t come close at any range. For bear worries at 200 yards, the 06 has a velocity of 2,394 fps delivering 2,414 ft-lbs. At 200 yards the 338 Fed launched at 2,525 fps is traveling 2,108 fps delivering 2,072 ft-lbs. The 06 throughout 100-500 yards with that bullet smokes the 338 Fed in every way. BTW drift is 5.7” for the 06 at 300 yards; the 338 Fed drift is 9.4”. That’s almost double the wind drift at 300 yards.

What would you rather carry when hunting if bears are a concern?

Black bear or grizzly country?

This seems right. A slightly wider bullet for the 338, about the same weight if you're loading big in the 06, but probably going a little slower. A push?

My 338 Fed with my 185 TTSX load.......

The 06 will always hold more powder, so it will always hit harder, so that's what I would pick. I would use heavier, top quality bullets, such as a 168 TTSX, 180 gr A-Frame, or the like.

Good load for the 338 Fed started at 2,750 fps, however it will only equal the 06 at the muzzle and slightly beyond and will trail the 06 at 150 yards out in measured impact velocity and energy. The 338 Fed will fall behind by more than 200 ft-lbs energy at 300 yards. There’s no substitute for the benefit of a higher BC load.

Splitting hairs for sure, however the OP is nebulous at best using a term like “killing power”. I’m merely saying the 06 loaded in this fashion 190 gr CX w/.575 BC is by all measures more powerful than the 338 Fed using a 210 Partition. The 06 loaded like this also throws more heat than the 338 Fed 185 ttsx at 150 yards and beyond. Both are more than suitable for the same game.

flintlocke, the group of guy's I talked to about 5 of them, all seemed to agree on what they were using, I didn't interview the whole Community. makes sense they would use what ever they had and had ammo for. Rio7

Id stick with my 168 ttsx out of 06 that’s zipping around 2900 and retains 100% of its weight.
If thick country, shorter distance than the 180 mono would be just fine.
Cup and core? 200 partition or A frame

From the OP's choices, I would go with a 338 Federal.

Main reason being, I have a rifle chambered in 338 Federal, but no 30-06's.

Would much prefer one of my 338-06's, 416 Remington, or 45-70 though.

NAD…No appreciable difference

This. The 200gr Partition in the 30-06 penetrates very well. I have twin M70 classic stainless rifles, one in 30-06 and one in 338 Win Mag. After seeing what the 200gr bullet will do, the 338 doesn’t get much time in the field.

A 200-220 gr 30 caliber bullet will out penetrate a 200-225 gr 33 caliber bullet. It doesn't matter if you're comparing 308 vs 338 Fed, 30-06 vs 338-06 or 300 WM vs 338 WM.

A 33 caliber bullet is about 1/2 the thickness of a dime greater in diameter than a 30 caliber bullet. No animal will notice the bigger hole.

The 33 caliber bullet may well be slightly faster at the muzzle, but the 30 will catch up and impact faster at some point after 100 yards.

The 33 will recoil more.

Given the option I'd choose 30-06, but dead is dead. Either will work, and if you have a 338 Fed that you like use it. I just don't see the point in having anything in 33 caliber, it offers no real advantages over comparable 30's until you start shooting bullets heavier than you can shoot in a 30 caliber rifle. And I had a 338-06 for a few years.

Great post. This is something that a lot of guys just don't get.

Either one. Dead is dead.

I love 30 cal cartridges……but, I love larger diameter bullets more! 😉 Given your parameters, I’d certainly lean toward the Federal 338.

Either bullet would be good….But I really like the Barnes (I would look at the 185) for their ability to maintain their weight and offering a much wider frontal area on high velocity impact. I’ve seen several close range, high velocity impacts on game with Partitions, where the jacket completely “folded back” over the bullet base (partition back) seriously reducing frontal area and losing a lot of bullet weight…. Only retaining about 65% to 68% or it’s original weight.

At longer ranges, where some velocity is lost…..either will work quite well! JMO memtb

Given that we have a professional Brown Bear Guide on the forum with a reference to the .30-06 in his signature line, speaks volumes...

Yes, but what's his opinion on the .338 Federal? I've never been around any bears other than black bears, so I don't have an opinion to the viability of either. They're both better than nothing at all, but the guide referenced killed a Brown Bear in a DLP situation with a 9mm and hardcast bullets. Both rifle choices have to be better than that option.

I don’t see why the 06 with 165gr interlocks wouldn’t kill a bear I’ve killed them with a 270 not that hard to do

Our own JJHACK believes .30 cal min dia. bear due to fat and hide. Better tracking. -06 and a 150gr TTSX, .338 160gr TTSX in Fed. Always push the TTSX light for cal. Speed baby. 300wsm 168gr ttsx.

I've been a fan of the 150 ttsx ever since I dropped a moose with one at 547. However I've since learned the 168g has a lower opening velocity so I may try those. I've always had a fondness for the 200g not over h4831sc at about 2700 from a 30-06 but these days I've been more interested in high bc longer range stuff.

I used to carry a 338 rcm in a 20" ss ruger with 225g interbonds at 2675fps when I hiked a lot in island park. There are lots of grizzlies there and they aren't afraid of anyone. I've since switched to a marlin 45-70 guide gun or a 444p marlin. I replaced the 338 rcm with a 30-06 m77 guide with the 20" barrel but someone offered me too much money for it. My plan for the 30-06 was 200g partitions so now I have several hundred of those on hand but keep hunting with berger 215g hybrids.

Bb

Having lived in Eskimo communities for a cumulative of about 14 years, I'd hazard the opinion that more polar bears have been killed by Eskimos using .22cf, than any other caliber. It's what they have, and what they carry, tho that is starting to change. In the past, at least, they considered the 243 o be "large caliber".

I've never used anything heavier than 180 gr in the '06, and have never found the need for such. The 180 is my favorite, tho the 165 may be a better all-round choice per JJHack's experiences. If I were to go looking for trouble with a brownie, I might consider a 200, but I don't, so won't.

You asked , 30-06 been killing game for 117 years the 338 federal a splash in the pan . Probably a good enough cartridge but a commercial failure with small renewals of interest. Pick the right bullet both will do the job. Buy 30-06 anywhere can't remember last time I saw 338 federal in stock anywhere.in a light rifle they both will have more recoil than you want. Go buy a 30-06 with iron sights a box of 200/220 loads and be confident you will handle it...mb

I could load 338 WM down to 338 fed levels. I don't. The '06 with 180/200/220 NPT's is a better option all day, twice on Sundays.

I think a couple of things that need stated on this thread.

First, a 338 Fed can approximate or even exceed the same velocity as the 30-06 with like weight bullets. I've never been able to get 3000 ft/sec with a 165 in an 06, I have with a 160 in the Fed. I've not reached 2800 with a mono in an 06. I haven't in the Fed either - 2725 for the Fed, 2750 for the 06 - with a mono. This is due to the larger diameter of the bullet in the Fed. It is true that the 30 cal will have a higher BC - which brings me to #2.

Second, the OP asked "killing power" for bears. Two things contained in that statement - efficacy of killing and range. I'm pretty sure Ursus doesn't care if he gets whacked with a 185 TTSX or a 180/200 TTSX moving the same speed.To me, bear bullets start with Partitions, Aframes, most monos, Fed Trophy and similar. They won't have giant BCs. And don't need giant BCs, they need bullet integrity. Even Ursus Americanus can get downright grumpy with a poor shot. I've tracked enough bears in cover where 15 feet was about all you can see to know it ain't about bullet BC. In my mind we are taking a sub 200 yard game with a bullet that can drive 2-3-4 feet of bear when needed.

Third, ballistics and physics are interesting. A 200 gr Partition driven by a 30-06 at 2700 (which is tough to do) drops 21.2 inches at 400. A 185 TTSX driven to 2725 in the Fed (I have several loads with that velocity with accuracy) drops 21.7 inches at 400. At 200, the difference is fractions of an inch. The Frame, Partition gain 1-2" at 400 yards, the 175 LRX about 3.5 inches over the Fed. At 400....

So this boils down to which rifle do you want to carry? I opined way back that I'd rather carry - and do - my Kimber MT 338 Fed with my 185 TTSX load. Why? It is 42 inch long, weighs 6.7lbs, is quick, and I've been carrying Kimbers as my main hunting rifles for 20+ years.

If you want to throw in cartridge availability, long range shooting, or special circumstances - fair, but the OP didn't ask that.

I had a Ruger in 338 Federal. While if cannot achieve 30-06 ballistics, I found it easy to achieve good accuracy with moderate recoil.
But I expected that based on the famy tree.. 308 Win and 358 Win
I think.it is an under rated cartridge.

It's not really germane to the discussion of .338vs'06, but as a greenhorn in Alaska, in the '60's before the oil boom, I was amazed at the number of Lee Enfields floating around, they were everywhere. Asking around, it was explained to me that you could order a SMLE or #4 for under 20 bucks, or off the rack for 25. In those days, Northern Commercial was THE store for bush Alaska, they sold them like hotcakes and of course sold tons of ammo. The old Canadian Dominion brand was everywhere, and then there were 'bargain' ammo deals, I think 20 or 25 round boxes, probably FMJ's, in stripper clips for like maybe 2.50 a box?

Betcha if you shoot the same animal in the same place with either one they run about the same distance before they keel over, on average.

Can kinda see the attraction of the very heavy for caliber 30-06 partition loads if hunting anywhere a grizz might be present, intentional or otherwise though. Not that 99.9999% of owners purposely hunt grizz with their 30-06, despite it coming up all the time lol

I am with Mr Winters on this subject. Specifically "which rifle do you want to carry?" Having either one will work with the right bullet. Having a rifle in your hand is what is going to matter.

Of the two listed, the 06'. To many people underestimate the 30-06 still to this day.

Nothing against the 338 fed, but even in hand loads in both it all leans to the ol 06'.

+1

I always thought that a 338 federal in a stainless synthetic Remington 7600 pump would darn near ideal for an Alaskan rifle.

Phil told a group of students he talked to that he was fine with clients starting at .270 in terms of brown bear cartridges... so while I can't speak for him, I also can't imagine he'd have problems with either an 06 or a 338 in the hands of a client that could hit a bear-sized target.

Ok then, +1 again.....
Lj in Alaska....

here is the other important question ? if you needed more ammo or lost your ammo > which cartridge could you get ammo for easy = 30-06 plus it is still a better cartridge all around over a 338 Federal cartridge hands down. if you want that size bullet get a 338 Win.mag that is a heck of a bear cartridge that you can find ammo for.

Where’s all the fast twist 223 guys? Everyone knows it can handle everything on the planet…

338-06. The 338 Federal was an answer to an unasked question. Although I like it.

What will you be hunting? I lived in remote AK with a ton of bears. As a teen I often carried a 458 win mag it was my second centerfire rifle. Never did that rifle make me feel any more comfortable than carrying a 308 or 270. So… I carried whatever I wanted to as well. If you are hunting deer, caribou, or moose carry any rifle you want. Why worry about bears?

were just old and slow i guess so we need a slow twist plain Jane 30-06 why make it easy. remember the old bull on the hill with the young bull.

Good post^^

I’m really interested in this statement, from the computational perspective.

338 fed h20 capacity is listed at 57.5
06 h20 capacity is listed at 68.2
So the 06 has roughly 18% greater case capacity,

We know approximately how much the case capacity differential will affect velocity at same pressure from the “Barsness” rule. What I’m curious is, what is the relationship between diameter and bearing surface versus velocity - at the same pressure.

End question being, is there a way to predict at what point increased case capacity will overcome the increased velocity due to the smaller bearing surface?

Gawd. Are we really going to trot out the "what if you lost all your ammo" thing again? When have you ever actually lost all of your ammo or known someone who did? When have you ever actually traveled to another state, on a major hunting, likely planned for months if not years in advance, and realized when you got there that you needed to try to buy ammo at a convenience store because you left it all home? Also, if you're actually ON your epic, back country hunt in Alaska and somehow misplace ALL of your ammo, you aren't going to be at the store anyway. C'mon man.

If we're really just interested in the ability to drop animals (minus humans!), you make a strong case that the 30-06 was an answer to an unasked question. 8x57 Mauser, 303 British, 6.5x55, 7x57, 30-30, 45-70... what do the vast majority of us hunt that these don't comfortable dispatch? (The point being, most of the rounds we consider "traditional" today were new kids on the block at some point... plenty of room under the tent for all of them.)

Just imagine if rifle talk was limited like pistols? 9/40/45, 9/40/45, 9/40/45…..

On the little 308 winchester, 338 federal and 358 winchester, they benefit from faster powders. They're very efficient with 20 inch barrels.

One really good way to maximize killing power in these smaller cartridges, is to forgo plastic tips, boat tails, pure copper construction and partitions.

You end up with shorter bullets, more bullet weight, decent BC/SD, all while not impeding powder capacity.

Narrow down to bullets known to expand like a mother fker, and you're golden.

200 grain norma oryx in the 308 winchester

230 grain norma oryx in the 338 federal

250 grain norma oryx in the 358 winchester.

In all three cartridges, you'll easily fit 48-49 grains of the latest/greatest powders when the norma bullets are loaded out to .030" off the lands.

Though not the flatest shooting, I'd gladly hunt any Alaskan game with the above loads.

Geesh, a case of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Pick the rifle you like the best, get some good bullets and be done with it.

Hi AK,

All true. The other thing that figures in the equation in this case is the larger bore diameter of the 338 allows a larger area to allow the gas to expand. I've seen John B explain it and I'm sure mathman can explain the physics.

If you want to see it in action look at a 180 gr bullet in the 30-06 and 338-06. At the same pressure, barell length, and case capacity, the 338-06 wins the drag race.

It’s not the bearing surface that is affecting the velocity, it is the surface area of the rear of the bullet. Yes, the 30/06 bullets may have a higher bc, but you’re still burning more powder and carrying a larger, heavier rifle.
Short of shooting long shots, I think the 338 wins for a number of reasons.

For maybe the first 75 yards.

Well if that’s the case, then the answer to this dilemma is the 280.

Nope! You'll never find 280 for sale at a lemonade stand in Idaho when you lose all of your ammo.

The small fu cking gas stations in some rural towns I've been to with populations of 2-500 people even carry 30-06 ammo, so you might want to get off your ridiculous kick you are on. I can name many small towns like this that I've been to that have one bar and one church, and one country store, but in the case that holds ammo, there will be 30-06 ammo in it. There isn't going to be any 338 Federal in there. You don't get out much, do you?

That whoosh sound you hear was the point sailing past and missing you, again.

I've been in gas stations that sell ammo, too. I've been in road house *restaurants* that sell ammo. But you know why I didn't need to buy any of it? Because no one ever actually forgets or loses ALL of their ammo. So using that as a metric for one cartridge being more viable than another is ridiculous. It's like saying you'd only hunt with a rifle that has open sights in case you forget to bring the scope (not because the scope could fail, but because you might lose or forget it) or only boots that velcro because you might misplace the laces and not be able to find any at 3am within 100 miles of the trailhead. Maybe you wouldn't... but if we're assuming you're responsible enough to be walking around with a loaded firearm, when on earth are you losing that kind of stuff?

Overall availability? Sure. There are certain cartridges that nearly impossible to find even online or have very scarce components/dies. 338 Federal isn't one of them.

IDK, to the .277 crowd, an increase in .007 is a huge downside.....

I may not be articulating my question well. What’s the relationship between bearing surface and surface area of the rear of the bullet that predicts the higher velocity of the 200 grain 338 versus the 200 grain 308 ? Same case capacity and pressure; similar bullet construct.

Of the two options, the short action 338 might cycle a bit faster...

The larger base of the bullet allows more area for gas to push on.

Check out data for a 30-06 vs a 35 Whelen with a 220/225 grain bullet

Same for a 160 from a 7 Rem and the same weight bullet from a 338 Win. Same case in both instances, but the increased bore size and bullet base allows more room to work.

Also……with the bullet weights being similar…..the larger caliber bullet may have less bullet to barrel bearing surface (less friction) and give a bit more velocity! I may be incorrect, but in my mind the smaller diameter bullet would have a longer bearing surface. memtb

Interesting. Is that why a .308 Win puts out about 50% more energy than a .243 Win, even though there is only about a 4% difference in case capacity?

F=M x a

Yes! Your example of the 243 vs. 308 is a perfect example. For the same amount of pressure applied to two different cartridges, more FORCE is being applied to the base of the larger diameter bullet, hence greater velocity.

For the sake of the 338F vs ‘06 argument, the 338F can meet or even maybe exceed velocities of bullets from the ‘06 with bullets of the same weight. It can do that while being packaged in a lighter, handier rifle.

I wonder, how many people here have owned and used the 338F and didn’t like it? I think it’s a fantastic round that would impress people if they tried it.

Edited to say- The Kimber Montana in 338F is a true thing of beauty. It’s unfortunate they stopped making them and I am very happy that I succumbed to the 338F and Kimber Montana marketing when I did.

Jeffrey nailed the reason, but I'll put it this way, using plain old Nosler Data.

The 308 with a 110 grain bullet is listed at 3366FPS with the fastest load.

The 243 with a 105-107 grain bullet is listed at 3044FPS with the fastest load.

30-06

Not sure I’m following. Force is mass times acceleration; not area. And while energy may be germane to the original question, I’m not asking at all about energy. I’m simply looking for the relationship between bore diameter (+/- bearing surface) and velocity; given the same weight projectile and same charge.

So, if two similarly-sized and similarly-shaped cartridge cases hold the same charge – one with a smaller-diameter barrel bore and one with a larger one, and if those two charges create equal pressure initially, the pressure would impart greater force on the base of the larger-diameter bullet--initially.

That’s because:

Pressure = Force/Area (e.g. lbs/sq. inch or PSI).

So: Multiplying both sides of the equation by the area, you get:

Force = Pressure x Area. The greater the area, the greater the force—with the same pressure.

However, I have a question: It seems to me that, as the larger-diameter bullet proceeds down the larger bore, the pressure would drop faster than the same initial pressure pushing a smaller-diameter bullet down a smaller bore (if the resisting friction is the same)—because the expanding gas from the same charge would have to fill a larger space in the larger bore weakening its pressure more.

Isn’t that right, gents? Or am I missing something.

If so, is the main reason for the difference the increased friction from the larger bearing surface on the smaller bore?

If really concerned about bear attacks (I'm not), my thoughts would probably be focused more on choosing between an AR-10 and a bolt gun. That would also provide the only meaningful answer to the 338 Fed vs. 30-06 debate.

That’s where burn rates come into play and that’s why the powder that works best in the 338F with a 200 grain bullet may not be the best powder for the ‘06 with a 200 grain bullet. Black powder for instance, is an explosive and delivers all of its pressure immediately. Smokeless powders is FLAMMABLE, and delivers pressure over a longer period of time. While both rounds may be utilizing similar pressures, they apply that pressure over time differently as the bullet travels down the barrel, and not all at once like you would get with black powder.

Edited to add: I bet bearing surface does play some role in velocity, but I don’t know the calculations of bearing surface between two bullets of the same weight and different diameters. Yes, a smaller diameter bullet will have a LONGER bearing surface, but a fatter bullet will have more (lateral?) bearing surface. Remembered the area of a circle and perimeter of a circle are both functions of pi.

I love AR’s. They are fantastic tools. But I don’t hunt animals with them. One of the key characteristics for a hunting rifle, IMO, is how it feels in the hands. Which is another reason why I give the nod to the 338F over the 30/06. Don’t get me wrong, there are no flies on the ‘06. But again, carry a Kimber Montana in 338F for a year or two and get back to me. It’s a wonderful rifle in a wonderful chambering. Nowadays when I hunt with an ‘06, it’s usually a pretty low activity, fair weather hunt. That has to do more with the rifle they are packaged in than the chambering itself, but if I’m beating bush and humping mountains, I want the lighter handier package. And if I can have that package in what is essentially equally as powerful as the long action counterpart, we’ll that’s what I’ll take.
The AR has a purpose, but it’s weight, ergonomics (good for shooting and not great for carrying) and general aesthetics prevent me from hunting with them. “Life is too short to hunt with a ugly rifle.”