I tried the search feature but can't find what I am looking for, so at the risk of being ridiculed, here goes.

I live in the deep south and am going to buy a new treestand/walking rifle, specifically the Remington Model 7. I can't decide which caliber to get even though I know both will be perfectly fine for my uses, deer hunting with an occasional hog. Shots range from 20 yards to the occassional 300 yards but average 75 - 150. I don't handload so I know that makes the 308 a better choice for factory selections. I'm just looking for some opinions as to why get one over the other. I had an Encore Pro Hunter in 7mm-08 and shot exactly one deer with it before I sold it. It shot good and was plenty mild but I wanted a repeater. That is the only firsthand experience I have with either round.

Take it easy on me! Thanks.

Flip a coin.

Sixpack,
You are not the only one having a tough time deciding between the two rounds.

I would say since you don't handload the 308 would be a slightly more practical choice.

Just my opinion.

Sixpack, I'm going over this in my head right now. I'm wanting to get my daughter a Weatherby Vanguard Compact this year, and have been trying to decide which of those two calibers to choose for her. I'm fond of both, and both have been accurate in my experience. Since I will be loading for .30-06 too, I may go ahead and get her the .308 to be able to use the same bullets for reloading that I do in my -06. That is, IF they both like the same ones:) I'd guess thats a toss up, until I try them in both rifles. I'd say just pick one, as both will work fine for your needs. I don't guess I've been too much help.

Sixpack,

I have a Tikka T-3 Lite 7mm-08. A lot of knowlegeable people think it is an ideal cartridge. If you look at the ballistic tables you will see that in factory loads there is not a dimes worth of difference between a 7mm-08 with 140 grain bullets and a .308 loaded with 150's. If I had it to do over again (and if my 7mm-08 weren't so darned accurate) I would go with a .308 because of the greater availabilty of factory ammo.

Hunt1

If you don't reload I would go with .308 hands down. At $25 a box for 7-08 you just won't shoot it much and guns are made for shootin!

+1.

BMT

Sixpack,

You didn't ask for advice on your choice of rifle. But, here is my 2 cents worth of advice. I sold my stainless Model 7 to fund the Tikka T-3 Light. IMHO the Tikka is a step up from the Model 7. Get a Tikka, add Talley Lightweight rings and you'll never regret it.

Hunt1

Or a Kimber for slightly more.

The old model 7's used to be light, I picked one up in 260 Rem the other day and it was pretty heavy. The Tikka, or Kimber for a light gun the Ruger Hawkeye for a 7.5 pound gun would be my choices. If you don't reload the 308 makes more sense. If you reload the 7-08 could compete effectivly and maybe provide a bit more penetration with premium 160 grain bullets than a 30 caliber with 165's.

I've had both and I don't know how you could go wrong with either. What would tip the scales for me, if I were you, would be the fact that you don't reload. The others have expressed this already and I would follow their opinions on this one. I would also go with the Tikka over the model 7. Easy adjust trigger, that you can do yourself, light and accurate.

Long

Sixpack,
Welcome to the 'fire!
My shot at it is since you already have some 7-08 ammo from your Encore days, buy a 7-08!

Model 7 Youths only weigh 6.25 lbs. The Model 7 CDLs only weigh 6.5 lbs in 7mm-08 and .308

308 all the way. There are just more choices in ammo.

Sixpack,

I own a Featherweight in .308 Win. However, a 7MM-08 Rem would have worked just as well. If there is a possibility you might call your rifle into battery on larger game, I'd recommend the .308 Win. Also, when I venture into areas where I might run into a big, mean critter, it is comforting to carry a half-dozen bonded, heavyweight cartridges.

Either way, I think you'll be well-suited to hunt the game you have indicated.



Take care,

Mando

It's kind of a 243 or 358 question; the only thing is you've brought it very close to the center.

I like the little 7. But then, I handload too. It has worked admirably on everything I've ever asked it to accomplish including several dozen caribou and a couple moose or three.

Wow! Thanks for all the responses guys! Gonna be a few months before I buy it so I might do little more checking on some of these other rifles. BTW, if I remember correctly, doesn't the Tikka have just one action length? If so, not interested.

Mando,
Thanks for the reply. I already have the following: Weatherby Vanguard in 25-06, Remington 700 in 30-06, Winchester 94 in 30-30, Ruger M77 MKII in 270 Win, Browning BAR in 270 Win, Remington 700 in 243 Win, and a NEF Handi Rifle in 45-70. Not to mention the shotguns and rimfires. This is a very deliberate attempt to make a lighter (not necessarily ultra-lite)and shorter overall - ie. 20" barrel - "specialty rifle". Have been out west 1 time and will hopefully get to go back but this is for my normal treestand hunting. Just wanting something shorter and a little lighter.

Thanks to all who responded and feel free to add anything else.

Six

Flip a coin, I tend to not be as long winded as most on here.....

I had a REM 600 in 308 for a while and eventually rebarreled it to 7mm-08. I have not regretted that decision one second. I handload though. As the senile one said (twice) - flip a coin, either choice is good.

RH

Tonight: .308 Winchester

Tomorrow: We'll see.

I thought that sounded familiar

Ballistically speaking this is very similar to the .280 Rem vs. .30-06 SPRG comparison. From a ballistic point of view the differences are meaningless; from a practical point of view the .308 enjoys greater ammo distribution and more factory load choices. I think would is a personal preference choice.

I would go .308.
I have owned both in different versions of the nodel 7. As far as killing the game you are shooting at. They both work fine.
But it seems to me the 180 grain in a .308 does better than a 175 in a 7mm08. But hats just my experence.
I like the Model 7 better than the Tikka too.
But I like the Ruger RL better than either...tj3006

If you liked the 7-08 you had before, go for it and get another. It's all down to personal preference ayway, but being a fan of the 7-08 I don't care if my bias shows. Bet you never thought you'd get all this "advice" Good Luck with your final choice!

Paul

your absolutely right. the 260 rem is the perfect round your looking for

woofer

Actually, I had the same decision to make about two years ago.....wanted a rifle for walking/stalking on foot with the ability to reach out if needed when hunting from a stand.

I own both the .308 as well as 7x57mm (ballistically the same as the 7-08). I finally went with a Ruger Mannlicher carbine in .308. It's light, fast handling and has the ability to use bigger, heavier bullets for game tougher than a deer. For deer, either would be good and you'd likely never notice a diference, but you did mention hogs. Don't know how big the hogs are in your area, but where I hunt they can and do get up to 350+ pounds and are encountered often at "how-do-you-do" range. The bigger, heavier .308 bullets just make me more comfortable.

However, I am a "Keith" type and almost always go with the bigger bore size. Nothing wrong with the 7-08.

Still liking the .308 today.

Go with the 308. I shot this "cull buck" 180 lb. 6 point at my camp a week ago. Hit him high in the sholder at 78 yards. The 165 grain accubond droped him in his tracks and then penetrated 2.5 inches in a tree. It took me 30 minutes to dig the bullet out with my pocket knife. Using a Sako forester circa:1960.

I think the .308 will be a better choice for you as you don't handload and there are bargins on ammo sometimes.

Mississippi, that's a nice cull buck and a fine rifle!

"Cull buck"?

Bragger

Go .308 Win. fer sure, dude!

Jeff Cooper figured that the .308 was the "world cartridge" but the 7-08 would do in jurisdictions where the .308 was considered a military round. If cheap practice ammo is a consideration (and it is for me), I would go .308.

I'm not trying to be a wise-@$$, but how many loads do you need to choose from? Surely you could find one or two good loads in either caliber that would cover all of your needs.

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool .30-06 fan, mainly because that's what I started out with 30 years ago, and it's what I'll finish with, but if I was starting over, I'm 95% certain I'd go with a 7-08. The reason I'm not 100% sure is that darn .260 Rem.
DAL357

I'm a 308 man.

However, if you don't handload - START!

used reloading gear is cheap.

You can get into a 708 reloading setup for under $100, I'd bet. Buy and shoot 120 BTs from shootersproshop.com, and never look back.

That said, the 308 is still best, IMHO....

If you like the 7-08 and recoil/kick is a consideration to you in a light rifle the 160 in the 7-08 should be about the same as the 180 in 308 based on launch speed, and starting sectional density. The BC is better for the 160 in 7-08 which should make it fly a bit flatter. I have owned 4 308's. For most of my life I have shot standard inexpensive cup and core factory ammunition. I just got into reloading again after a 15 year hiatus where I reloaded mostly pistol ammunition and am really enjoying it. I have just gotten away from big green for a number of reasons that do not need to be mentioned here. If you want a light stainless rifle the wood CDL is 6.5 but the camo stainless starts at 7 then add a 16 ounce scope + 8 ounce sling + mounts and you are over 8 pounds, not light in my book. I picked up a SS 260 Rem model 7 just a few days ago and it felt heavy to me. My Kimber 300WSM is lighter. For a stainless light weight gun in 7-08 or 308 maybe consider the Kimber montana. For a versatile gun you will not be able to find anyone that will be able to prove that one or the other (7mm-08 vs 308) of them would be other than just about identical in terms of performance on game. Then with the money you would spend on 5 boxes of ammunition at $40/20 you could get set up to start reloading and shoot premium bullets for much less money.

The twist rate for the Model 7 in 308 which is 1-10. Sako, Weatherby, CZ, and Kimber use a 1-12 twist in the 308, while Remington and Savage, use a 1-10, what Ruger uses is not known to me. The 1-12 will probably produce more accuracy while the 1-10 will stabalize a 180 TSX, the early wood stocked model 7 I owned was an honest 3 MOA gun with awful balance but it killed a truck load of deer for me.

Man, I have owned two 308s and two 7-08s and I think the 7-08 has it all over the 308. Either one gives you all the gun you will ever need in the lower 48, but the 7 does it all with less recoil, a flatter trajectory, and is just a little more "cool". My second favorite cartridge is the 308, but the 7-08 does everything the 308 can do only a little bit better. Can't lose with either one, though.

Both are great calibres capable of taking up to and including moose. Craig Boddington took his daughter to Namibia for a Safari where she took a whole bunch of animals including Kudu and Zebra with a 7-08 with 150 gr Scirroco's.

That's like, pointing it at something and pulling the trigger, right?

I've had both and shot both a lot.......7-08 hands down for me.

I could see the ammo argument if you were comparing the 260 to the 308, but I've yet to not be able to find a good load off the shelf for the 7.....The 308 has more choices, but it's called redundantcy in terms of what you'd actually need or use.

The 7mm has the ballistic advantage, less recoil, and is just as easy to find a good bullet for whether you're handloading or not.

I just can't warm up to another 308, except for maybe a full-blown tactical long-range unit, but even then; I think I'd still do a 7mm-08.

I've owned 2 .308's over the years, and 2 7-08's, I held onto the 7-08, M70 Compact refitted with a Pachmyr for extra length.

Ballistically, with bullets of equal SD, there isn't an ounce of difference, both rounds are inherintly accurate, and if there's spec of advantage, it would be the availability of ammo in a small town in South Dakota or Montana.

If you can't decide Just flip a coin, they are both winners.

I don't really care for either one myself, but if I had to pick one for hunting it would be the 7/08.

I am about to pull the trigger on one of these in a Kimber Montana. I am looking at 7-08, 308 and 338 fed, for the life of me I cannot make a good case for any one of them over the other, except the 7-08 bullets are a buck or two cheaper per 50! Any animal Ardvark to Zebra shot under 300 yards with the right bullet from any of the 3 in the right place will expire in the same way and at about the same speed of demise. Also the twist in the 308 is 1-12 which I am a bit scared of for 180 TSX bullets.

I really like the 7-08 Ruger Hawkeye I bought a few months ago for my son. We hunt primarily in the Delta BTW.

I like my odds with wind at distant ranges with the 7 and the recoil is noticeably less.....for killing purposes only, there's no real world difference, but the 308 has just a little more kick and too vanilla for me to want another one.

What one will do the other will do for you, pick one and go forth and fill an ark!

Pretty much a 280 vs 06 thingy.

Dober

My guess is if you were to shoot two Model Seven CDL's in the mentioned calibers both using 150 Gr bullets 20 times each blind folded you would be doing good to guess the right caliber 50% of the time.

Dats for darn sure!

This is just ballistic gack and ballistic micro mgt 101...make no doubt.

And in no way or no form am I making fun of the original Q.

Dober

I'm on .338 Federal today!

[quote=17ACKLEYBEE
My guess is if you were to shoot two Model Seven CDL's in the mentioned calibers both using 150 Gr bullets 20 times each blind folded you would be doing good to guess the right caliber 50% of the time. [/quote]

world of difference on 140's with the 7 against the 308 in 150's on same gun....BTDT

to each is own, but the 7 got badmouthed for lack of ammo availability, which just isn't a problem.....The 260 on the other hand is a PIA to find factory ammo for.

Matt-not sure how many country stores you've looked at in Montana, but I've looked in a lot of them to see what one could get for ammo. 308 you have a very good chance here, 7/08 a minute chance, but I sure wouldn't bet on it.

Now perhaps in your part of the word it's different and you can find both in lil shops here and there, but in Big Sky country that just isn't the case.

Our bigger shops will generally have about 15-25 different sku's of 308 and around 5-7 of 7/08 for what that is worth.

Lastly, our opinions will have to different when it comes to being able to tell a 308 with a 150 from a 7/08 with a 140. About 7% less bullet weight, if theres a diff I'd be amazed if anyone could ever tell. And as long as they're both running at similar kinds of pressure and in similar guns, well it I just can't imagine one being sensitive enough to sort out the diff.

From where I sit they're both very user friendly and that is the end of that tune.

Dober

Certainly in terms of terminal performance, the "flip a coin" answer is best here. Anyone claiming a difference between the two would be pole vaulting mouse turds at the Olympic Level.

As to which to choose in your situation, I can only add my experience, which is seven or eight 308's (can't remember anymore) and one 7-08.

The 308 has been, without question, the single easiest cartridge I've ever loaded for. Finding a good load has always been a snap (except for one PIA M7 308 which Remington bought back from me after neither of us could make it shoot satisfactorily).

Also, most .308 factory ammo, in the rifles I've run it in, has given excellent accuracy which hasn't always been the case with other chamberings. I had one Savage 99 EG that I never bothered to load for as it would consistently give 3/4"-ish groups with 150 gr Remington Corelockt factory ammo.

I can't comment much on the 7-08, but my sample of one was finicky with both factory and handloads, so I had it re-barreled to 22-250. No doubt however, there are a lot of great-shooting 7-08's out there.

Mark D. is absolutely right about factory ammo availability, around this part of the world anyway the 308 is the slam dunk winner... it's available anywhere stuff that goes bang can be found which is certainly not the case with the 7-08 (if that matters).

Recoil-wise, I can't find any difference between the 7-08 and 308 but everyone's different that way and stock design, IMO, plays the biggest single role in how a rifle feels under recoil. For me, the M7 package isn't the best for handling recoil, but neither round really kicks enough to matter either.

I recently bought a Kimber Montana... got it from a local dealer and could have gotten any chambering available including 7-08... I went 308 so I guess that tells how much I like the cartridge. Forced to choose, I suppose the 308 is my single favorite round.

Ballistic gnat-straining aside, I really can't see any good reason to chose a 7-08 over the 308 unless I were a handloader with a big supply of 7mm bullets or powder suitable for the 7-08 on hand... otherwise I'd always go 308.

For a guy running factory fodder only, the 308 is a no-brainer choice.

My .02...

+1 Ain't no doubt about that!

My M7 308 was the SS/Synthetic version that I got the first year it was available... it started out as a 6 moa shooter and after two trips back to the factory and a lot of bedding and coaxing it became "an honest 3 MOA gun with awful balance!"

Remington, to their credit, cut me a refund check directly from Corporate and gave excellent service throughout the entire episode.

Personally I've never liked much anything about the M7, either in wood or plastic, and that one experience sort of cemented the deal.

I tried to like the M7 though!

Back to .308 Winchester today! If the "vanilla factor" makes the .308 a little boring, just get yourself one of those high-end, cut-rifled, 5R barrels from Rock or Krieger, some Lapua brass, and some Barnes MRX bullets! Not necessary, but would definitely make it French vanilla!!

I have been 'debating' either a 7-08 or 308 in a Kimber Montana.

Finally had to decide, and the 308 won.

I would get the 308 over the 7-08 in the Kimber Montana as I have brass, dies, powder. The 308 is easy to load, throw some RL15 and a bullet into the case and it usually shoots pretty good. The 1-12 twist says you most probably cannot shoot 180 TSX bullets, probably not that I would ever need them but there it is.

Don't waste time flipping, just pull it out of your pocket and look.

Battue

Since you can buy 140 TSX in 7mm-08 Federal Ammo there is your answer!

With all due respect to Matt, who has probably done more shooting then I have, I've owned 4 308's of various makes/models/weights and one 7-08. I shot a lot of 140's in the 7-08 and 150's in the 308's and I couldn't detect any difference in recoil, trajectory, or wind drift (out to 300 yards).

The fact that I no longer own the 7-08 and still have three 308's probably answers the original question. I thnk that the 308 offers a wonderful combination of shootability, lethality, and versatility. It's always performed well for me and my two sons, and we have brought down deer, moose, elk, and hogs without any difficulty whatsoever. Re: factory ammo, the Federal High Energy 180-gr. Nosler Part. load is a doozy, and it has been accurate in all the guns I've tried it in. That load packs a hell of a punch - much more than you can find in any factory 7-08 load. Another factory load that works well on game and performs well on the range is Hornady's Light Magnum 165-gr. SPBT.

I think the 7-08 is a great little round, but given a choice of one or the other I'd have to lean towards the 308.

Who cares about the cartridge, both will do it with equal ease.

Just pick the rifle that fits.

I'm not knockin' any of you guys who favor the 308. As I stated earlier in this thread, it is my second favorite cartridge. If no one had ever invented the "308 Improved" aka, 7-08, I'd be pleased as punch to shoot a 308 from now on. But, since this is the thread subject we're discussing, I'll throw a little ballistic gack out there. As a hand loader, the 7-08 throws a 120 gr bullet right about the same as the 308 pushes a 130. A 140 in the 7 probably has a slight velocity edge over the 308 in 150 gr. The 150 gr bullet in the 7 definitely has an edge in velocity over the 165 grainer in the 308. All of these bullets have a significantly higher SD and BC in the 7-08 than in the 308. To get the same SD as a 140 gr bullet in 7mm has, the 308 needs 165 gr. The 7-08 has it all over the 308 when it comes to velocity, trajectory, ballistic coefficient, and recoil for similar SD loads. Not much difference, maybe, but a difference. And the 7-08 is better in all of those areas. It's an easy choice for me, I'll shoot both my 7-08s about 2-3 times as often during the year as I do my 308. Just more fun to load and shoot. If you don't hand load, it gets to be a tougher decision, but there is no doubt the 7-08 is slowly growing in popularity. For deer hunting, there is no need to use a larger or more powerful cartridge. The 308 has made the short action competitive with the old reliable '06 based cartridges. The 7-08 IMO is the perfect application for that action.

Brad, I agree with almost everything you said about the .308. But I quit loading 150gr's because it shot factory loads so well. I could meet the best factory loads but could not beat it. 5 shots into .4". With 195 gr's I was able to beat the best factory loads. 5 into .6".

Sixpack:

Why don't you take the most desirable way and buy both ?

That way you don't have to second guess yourself. Face it, they are both great cartridges.

hey 6pack,

for starters you need to start loading your own...

for about the price of 5 boxes of factory ammo you can purchase the tools and supplies to load those same 5 boxes yourself...
the lee loader is simple and easy to use and comes with complete instructions...

i have not owned a 7-08 but have used a few, going back to when it was introduced nearly 30 yrs ago...
it is a good enough round, but for my own use i would prefer the .308... possibly due to familiarity and having all of the components and dies on hand for it, but even so, i have yet to see another deer and medium game cartridge built on the .308 case that does so much so well...
on the lighter end of the scale you do have the option of the .243, or one of the .25s
deadly on deer and hogs... useful for all manor of smaller game, predators, and varmints...

4 or 5 years ago now, i was looking for a rifle along the same lines that you are... i ordered out a model 70 featherweight in .308... before i took delivery on the .308 i found a savage 99F in .300 savage...
the model 70 fwt in .308 remains unfired, in the box, and is an absolutely beautiful rifle... the savage is my rifle of choice, today, for a walking around deer rifle, and i just took two does a few weeks ago with it...
i'm hoping that my youngest son takes a shine to the m70 .308, but so far his choice of my rifles is that savage.... john w

Do like I did, pick up one of these. You won't find a more accurate .308 anywhere.

Tactical Operations Tango-51:

I thought about it, but decided to pay my house note for a year instead though!!

Probably a good choice.

I can't tell the difference between the recoil of a 7-08/140 and .308/150, but I can tell the difference between the 140 and the 165, and those are the SDs I like. Beside SD/recoil, the best reason to buy the 7-08 is the availability of the 120g Ballistic Tip with the particularly thick jacket - 3000 fps of fun...

One interesting aspect of the 7-08 is its similarity to the 30-06, much more so than that of the .308, to my way of thinking. Both shoot the same SD bullets (140/165) to about 2800 fps and therefore have about the same trajectory (though out to my limit of 300 yards, that's a nit), with the 7 delivering significantly less recoil than the 30-06. (The 7-08 140/120 maintains 2000+ fps out to 400 - 450 yards and can be counted on to expand nicely.)

The 7-08 in my target SDs (or the 120) hold a bit less powder than the 308, and might - might - have a little less muzzle blast, something that I'm coming to appreciate as the ringing in my ears becomes clearer over time.

Sixpack, Since like me you dont reload Go with the .308cal and forget about it, for a non-reloader it gives you at least 5 times the choice of factory ammo, that alone leads me to believe the good ol .308cal is still the "SHORT ACTION KING". If the 7mm.08 was that popular you better believe the major ammo makers would all offer 6 or 8 loads for it like they do the .308cal, Heck! even Remington just offers three 7mm.08 loads and its their own baby. The 7mm.08 is a fine cartridge no doubt and it is very popular on this site, but most of the big 7mm.08 fans are reloaders.....Stick with the original, buy a .308..................547.

That would be a fun rifle to have!

Good presentation Bluedog. What you said is true in the context of just the two rounds. The 7-08 does have a much faster twist which equals longer sleeker bullets. The problem is not so easy however as the actual difference in drift and drop do not matter all that much out there in terms of range between them.

If long range mattered that much for a SA rifle then the WSM's will range further. The 8400 Kimber WSM's will out range any M70 in 7-08 or 308 that I know of and still weigh less!

There are bean fields and large meadows in the Eastern USA. In Western VT I spotted and ranged a sleeping bear at 1200 yds in fields that connected. Why should I carry a 7-08 when I can carry a 7mm WSM there? For just woods hunting sure, I will take the 308 or 358 and I always did but for the longer ranges here I will shoot the most effective gun that I can get into position and aim well and thats not a 308 based round.

To each his own.

Sixpack,

Well, I'm a 7mm loony all the way through, and have been since 1957. My favorite rifle is a 7x57, and that is what I would buy if I were in your shoes. But, I do have a 284 and a 7mm Mag too. However, the 7-08 is a better choice today as there are a lot of factory rifles chambered for it.
So, my recommendation is to buy the 7-08.
Bite the bullet, and buy some reloading gear, and get with it!!! There are a whole lot of good 7mm bullets available to load for Deer. My favorite bullet is the Nosler 140 grain Partition, but Nosler also make the Partition in 150 and 160 grains too. Have never used any Barnes TSX's, but those who do use that bullet praise it's performance.

Don