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if you were up close and personal with a big brown bear?

Now, I don't own a 338 Win. Mag. but I have sent many .338 bullets downrange from a 340 Wby. Likewise, I have shot a lot of 9.3 ammo. I've hunted with both.

I have wondered which would be the better option in stopping a bear. Imagine yourself in a situation where you had to shoot and shoot quickly. And for the sake of conversation, there are no variables such as rifle familiarity, recoil tolerance etc., etc, to ponder. In other words, you are equally proficient with either rifle/cartridge.

If you were in a situation where you had to stop a bear, which rifle would you hope to have in your hands? There may not be much difference in the stopping power of the two cartridges. And yes...........we all know about shot placement. But still, which would you rather have when the chips are down?

Landrum

x62

Why - the powder column is shorter and won't bite as much but you still get that thump of a whelen, heck it's better than a whelen
9.3: 5 320gr Woodleighs +1 up the spout.

Although, since you asked about bears I will say that I have a very near- Pavlovian reaction wherein if you say "bear," I say "four- five- eight." If I know there will be bear, close bear, then it's my 458 Win Mag with 450gr TSX's.
Plus 1 on that Bro.
Originally Posted by Landrum
if you were up close and personal with a big brown bear?

I have wondered which would be the better option in stopping a bear. And for the sake of conversation, there are no variables such as rifle familiarity, recoil tolerance etc., etc, to ponder. In other words, you are equally proficient with either rifle/cartridge.

If you were in a situation where you had to stop a bear, which rifle would you hope to have in your hands? There may not be much difference in the stopping power of the two cartridges. And yes...........we all know about shot placement. But still, which would you rather have when the chips are down? Landrum


I do not believe it would make any noticeable difference whatsoever. The two cartridges provide so nearly the same terminal performance that no bear would ever know the difference.

Either one would be an enormous improvement over a flat rock grin.

DN
Originally Posted by Landrum
if you were up close and personal with a big brown bear?

Now, I don't own a 338 Win. Mag. but I have sent many .338 bullets downrange from a 340 Wby. Likewise, I have shot a lot of 9.3 ammo. I've hunted with both.

I have wondered which would be the better option in stopping a bear. Imagine yourself in a situation where you had to shoot and shoot quickly. And for the sake of conversation, there are no variables such as rifle familiarity, recoil tolerance etc., etc, to ponder. In other words, you are equally proficient with either rifle/cartridge.

If you were in a situation where you had to stop a bear, which rifle would you hope to have in your hands? There may not be much difference in the stopping power of the two cartridges. And yes...........we all know about shot placement. But still, which would you rather have when the chips are down?

Landrum
Up close to a big brown bear, there is no question: I'd much rather have the 9.3x62 Mauser. More lead, bigger bullet, five rounds instead of three or four in the mag, more knock down, less chance of bullet failure/fragmentation at close range.
Seems most of them issues would be solved with a Barnes, plus good luck getting off 5 shots on a bear 10 yards away.
I own 5 .338WM rifles always loaded in Grizzly country with 250NPs at 2750-2800 fps-mv and I own 3-9.3 rifles loaded with 286 NPs at 2400 fps-mv. I would rate them about equal in this scenario and would be comfortable with either.

I would, however, prefer my custom .375H&H P-64 "shorty" with 300 NPs loaded to 2500 fps-mv and just got a Browning Safari CRF in .458WM to customize as my final Grizzly rifle, probably with 450 SAFs at 2150-2200 fps-mv. I WOULD prefer this over ANY other rifle as I have been close enough to Grizzlies to smell them several times and believe in bigger is best.
4 me it would not matter which one round I used, now if I was more intimate with one rifle than the other then it would be a no brainer for me.

Personally, I feel that stopping bruins @ close range is all about CNS hits. I'll take one well placed round to the CNS and I'd prefer not to wonder if I can turn the bruin with a non CNS shot.

A fella I know does a lot of work with grizzlies (he trains them for movie work and such) timed one of his bruins in a 50 yd dash. And keep in mind that this is a "soft" captive bruin. Said track star made it the 50 in several timings from 2.9 seconds to 4.5 seconds.

Now, say he starts at you from 10 yds like Steely mentioned what will your choice of shot be, as it may well be your last....

Just a thought to chew over

Dober
The 10 % differance in power , a bear wood not notice ! A short light highly manoeverable rifle is what is needed. These can be had in rifles built on the 06 type case. For an undistrubed bear at medium distances a 3006 with 180gr TSX or a 200gr something else will do the bear with a precision shot.
The 338 Win Mag has the magazine deficit problem relative to the 9.3. And obviously one will not get off two more shots with a 9.3 at 27 yards than one might with the 338 if a dead charge is what is considered. However, since the real deal might easily involved a charging bear, then a wounded bear, then a slowed but still dangerous bear, then the fourth or fifth shot start making a lot of sense.

Then again, the belted magnum has an advantage over the 9.3 in that for absolute reliability it has both a better shoulder and that redundantly useful belt in ensure positive headspace which might prevent a disasterous misfire.

There, didn't solve a thing.....or maybe some really good 220s look like alright in the 30-06. wink
338 Win Mag/300gr Woodleigh, which gets around 2500fps.
My first brown bear got into the alders because I was a chump,inexperienced,and did not hit him correctly; he was also a very dead bear,lying down-wind of his backtrail, but as we followed in that rainforest, I did not know that at the time;the 375 had shrunk to the dimensions of a slingshot with marbles, so I completely understand Kute's comments on "bigger is better", but would prefer a 375 to either of the other cartridges mentioned here;I would not expect the 9.3 to hold any advantage over a 338 with heavy bullets, but I've been wrong about these things before........
too bad we can't ask Grizzly Man, the dufus that lived with the bears how fast they move...he knew for sure...
Originally Posted by kutenay
I own 5 .338WM rifles always loaded in Grizzly country with 250NPs at 2750-2800 fps-mv and I own 3-9.3 rifles loaded with 286 NPs at 2400 fps-mv. I would rate them about equal in this scenario and would be comfortable with either.

I would, however, prefer my custom .375H&H P-64 "shorty" with 300 NPs loaded to 2500 fps-mv and just got a Browning Safari CRF in .458WM to customize as my final Grizzly rifle, probably with 450 SAFs at 2150-2200 fps-mv. I WOULD prefer this over ANY other rifle as I have been close enough to Grizzlies to smell them several times and believe in bigger is best.


Boy would I like to be your heir..... grin grin
YEA M that would be nice wouldn't it? HEY,maybe you can get him to adopt ya!!!!

til later
Originally Posted by Steelhead
plus good luck getting off 5 shots on a bear 10 yards away.



With the presence of mind to do so...........me I would be dead with dirty shorts!!!
Originally Posted by EZEARL
YEA M that would be nice wouldn't it? HEY,maybe you can get him to adopt ya!!!!

til later



Nope those rifles will go to a CANADIAN LOGGER named Mike...grin
.........Kute is in need of a foreign asset(M70) protection vehicle with a reliable fiduciary to save these assets from egregious inheritance, or other, taxes, probing creditors, etc.............I will volunteer..... wink cool


Well Bob if ya ever come up for a moose hunt I'll give ya the rifle you used to get your bull.Out of fairness and respect for kute I'll need to keep the rest.
I've no experience "stopping" charging grizzlies, but I have had to stop a couple of blacks in hair-raising circumstances. I've been bluff-charged by grizzlies - but was able to wait them out -without shooting. My Dad, on the other hand, had extensive grizzly experience - killing "about 20" in his day. I was the recipient of many great stories from him on those experiences, and witnessed two of them. So, with that caveat, I'll proceed.

For the most part, my thoughts are pretty much a compilation of the prevailing trends on this thread so far, but with a few twists.

In a perfect "charge" scenario, one central nervous system hit and you'll have a very dead bear, very quickly. One big (7ft black) found that out - and I was only shooting a 100 grain X out of a 25-06 at a range measured in feet, not yards. I know the same thing would have happened with a 9 foot grizzly too. Not the slightest doubt in my mind.

I'd even go so far as to bet the same result would have happened with a 53 grain Barnes X out of my .22 CHeetah too. But as we all know "perfect" CNS hits aren't going to happen every time, hence we need to think about other cartridges.

In less than perfect circumstances (non-CNS hits) it's going to be all about making holes in the animals anatomy. The bigger around the hole is, and the deeper it is - the better. But, and this is a very big "but" - many of the guns that perforate bigger holes in the hide and punch deeper into the bear, kick so much, that people are scared of them, flinch, shoot poorly and even if they do shoot them well - it does take more precious seconds to settle the rifle down, after the recoil of the really big cartridges, for when those oft-needed subsequent shoots might need to be taken. Oftentimes, these really large caliber rifles are also too heavy to be really fast swingers even before they are fired, too.

So for me, it's all about being light enough to carry and swing that you won't be fatigued from packing it, and it'll be light enough to swing quickly - hence to my way of thinking - it won't be a typical .375 H&H weight rifle, and is less likely to be ideal if it's a larger caliber. So, I don't think that bigger is necessarily better. If you've got a guide backing you - go as big as you want to. If you are on your own - think fast and portable.

Because a lot of things can, and often will, go wrong with an angry bear deciding it wants to lay a hurt on a lone man (not with a guide at his side) - having a rifle with more rounds of capacity is aways better. Having a rifle with one cartridge in the chamber and with five more in the magazine is a great reassurance and potentially very useful. Remember - things are very different without a guide at your side.

In this comparison - the 9.3X62 would have it all over the .338 as the "perfect" rifle for this scenario.

It kicks less. It penetrates at least as well. It makes a bigger-around hole. It is available in lighter, more compact rifles. It doesn't loose as much when fired from a short barrel. It carries two extra rounds in the magazine.

I'm sure my Dad would have loved it - that is, if the 30-06 Remington 760 Pump that he eventually settled on, as his own "perfect grizzly rifle" - hadn't been available. With that rifle and his all-steel tip-off Weaver 2 power scope - he thought he was as perfectly armed as possible - for close encounters in the alders with old Ursus Horribilis.

The majority of his grizzlies fell to that rifle shooting 220 grain round nose bullets. He couldn't figure out why anyone would want anything bigger or more potent. He thought, more powder and more bullet than he used, only increased the chances of missing. My dad thought that "elephant guns" (as he called the bigger magnums) were too heavy and too slow to be "perfect" for killing grizzlies in the thick stuff.

"You can't kill them deader than dead" he'd often add with a wink and a smile. Sometimes he'd add - "How much more penetration than "total penetration" - do you need?"

My Dad knew a lot about killing grizzlies.
Well, it seems as if he who often cautions against anyone even mentioning THEIR families accomplishments does not follow his own advice or attitude, a common situation among liberals.

Now, the ORIGINAL poster asked a simple question and it WAS NOT what WOULD kill Grizzlies, or what someone's old Dad did whenever, BUT, WHICH of TWO specific cartridges WOULD be superior in a given scenario, the .338WM or the 9.3x62. IF, one has NOT HAD experience with these, it is hard to decide this question and ALL other considerations are irrelevant.

I have owned, loaded for and shot a total of 16 different rifles in these two chamberings since 1968, I KNOW what they will/will not do and base my opinions on a considerable amount of actual Grizzly experience, NOT on what someon else did/did not do.

Anyone who thinks that the .30-06, with ANY load is the equal of the loads I refer to here needs serious help. The magazine capacity is a function of the RIFLE and this CAN be altered quite easily, as I always do with rifles for working in Grizzly country.

In 21 years of shooting 9.3 rifles, 25 years of shooting .375H&H rifles and 40 years of shooting .338WM rifles, I have felt NO difference in recoil between 9.3s and .338s and damm little with a decently stocked .375 H&H, although there IS some.

Puzzymen who can't handle a real rifle should play golf or tennis or whatever, these rounds are NOT hard to learn to shoot and they DO a much better job than any smaller ones will. A chopped .458WM IS, no question, a specialist's tool, however, after decades of serious rifle shooting and wilderness work, not weekend play, I CAN handle it and it DOES a better job, much like a .338WM or 9.3 over the .30-06.

If, you have the right carrying rig, a heavier .375H&H or .458WM or .416 is NOT hard to pack, simply read the backpacking forum here to learn how from guys who do it. If, you are a "quadjockey", it doesn't matter about an extra lb. of rifle weight.

Again, this is NOT simply about killing, it is about STOPPING and Black Bears are largely irrelevant, I have chased lots of them off from my bush cabins with rocks and shouts, I would NEVER do that with a Grizzly. I would bet that I knew as many or more REAL oldtimers, guys who started pro bushwhacking before WWI as anyone on this MB, and ALL of them tended to use the biggest gun that they could when Grizzlies were around.

Yes, Grizzlies have and will be dropped with the ubiquitous .30-06 and it is beloved of those who like to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator, BUT, we don't drive Model As or use wooden skis or "iceboxes" anymore, there ARE better choices and the two rounds in question are among them.

Harumpphhh!
How many grizzlies have you actually hunted and KILLED Kutenay? How many have you shot in self-defence?

I mean, there's the abstract "grizzly experience" that could mean being simply being around, being in close proximity to, working in grizzly country, being surrounded by them, having many grizzly encounters, being bluff charged, being "in on the kill" etc. etc. etc. - and then there's the actual hunting, tracking and eventual of shooting the these bears - on ones's own - without a guide.

My Dad's experiences were the latter.

The people who have actually tracked, hunted, turned down many for every one he ended up shooting, and then actually killed quite a lot of them. To my way of thinking, are really the ones that really should be listened to. When a man did it the way my Dad did, usually alone, never with a guide (even compared to being an actual guide - with a client or two - all armed and loaded to the hilt, at the guide's side) is the kind of experience that really is of the type that ought not be discounted, and in fact should actually be listened to.

To my mind - those two differing scenarios are really quite different.

I'm curous, as to how many grizzly bears you've actually hunted and shot - yourself.

You see, my Dad was actually a "grizzly hunter".

Never diminish a man's father's accomplishments - unless you want him to fire back. wink

Hrmmph....back at ya
I have been right there at the death of about a dozen different Grizzlies in my lifetime, have never killed one myself as I had no wish to during my working years, but, am considering it now.

I have tracked probably 100 over the years, encountered over 60, usually alone and have "free-guided" several hunters, friends of mine, to them, over the years.

I have been within 10 yards of three Grizzlies, twice alone, once armed and once unarmed and once with two guys from out of Province, armed.

In my five+ decades of bush experience, Grizzlies were a fairly common situation to deal with and I COULD easily have shot over 20 of them, legally; but, I am a serious, lifelong environmentalist, not a trendy type and thus, due to the declining habitat and population levels, until recently, have not done so.

As to being a ...serious...BC bushman, pal, I think that I certainly qualify in this respect. I started working alone, far from help, less than a week after my 21st birthday in the Flathead wilderness and have spent actual years of periods consisting of 3 month stints solo, all over BC since that season in '67.

It seems as though you can hand out the comments about not taking credit for one's family's accomplishments (Canada forum?) pretty damm well, BUT, you constantly base your opinions on Grizzlies, calibers, etc., on what your DAD did and I thought that may be it might be time to point this out.

If, YOU can always use your dad's experiences as a point of reference, without anyone commenting, well, why can't I, or, anyone else refer to their forbearers accomplishments? I am not into denigrating him, but, there is no essential difference between my familial-historical references and your using your dad's Grizzly kills as a point of reference, is there?

So, don't think that I am attacking him, or, even you; I simply thought that "turnabout is fair play". Anyhow, the .30-06 is NOT the equal of these other cartridges.
Canucks are funny
Canucks are COOL, we have the BEST beer, the most gorgeous babes and the biggest per capita, least polluted and most resource rich country on Earth. We are the best soldiers, hockey players, barroom brawlers, loggers, fishers, railroaders and general real men there is or is that are?

Our LIBERALS can whip anybody else and we also smell nice, just like Maple Syrup, Cedar shavings and roasting Moose meat!
All that, and modest, too.....

Or, is that just delusional? wink
and you don't even need propane to get a HOT air ballon off the ground.........
No, but we have probably the largest petro resources on Earth AND we share with you guys so the camelhumpers can GFTS's.!

Hey, a YANK talks about being modest?????? Really? smile
Canada is so cute.
I ain't no damnyankee. I'm Southern.

Must be the cold up there.... snowblindness and all.....



Originally Posted by Kutenay

have never killed one myself


So the answer is none then?

Originally Posted by Kutenay


In my five+ decades of bush experience,



You've certainly had an awful lot of jobs that one would think would have to be based out of a city of some description...Book Store clerk, shoe salesman, outdoor retail salesman, etc....To have spent the last 50 years in the bush as you purport.

Originally Posted by Kutenay


As to being a ...serious...BC bushman, pal, I think that I certainly qualify in this respect.


See above.

Originally Posted by Kutenay


It seems as though you can hand out the comments about not taking credit for one's family's accomplishments (Canada forum?) pretty damm well, BUT, you constantly base your opinions on Grizzlies, calibers, etc., on what your DAD did and I thought that may be it might be time to point this out.



Might be time to point out that there is a far cry from being beside someone or around someone who actually accomplished things, as opposed to having tales of accomplishments from anywhere from many decades to HUNDREDS of years ago...

Originally Posted by Kutenay


so don't think I'm attacking him, or, even you



Isn't that exactly what you are doing?
Originally Posted by VAnimrod
I ain't no damnyankee. I'm Southern.

Must be the cold up there.... snowblindness and all.....


Yeah, I should have realized that, hell of a thing, eh, to call a "blueblooded southern gentleman" a ...Yank..., my abject apologies, must be that dammed Easter Bunny, again, eh?

It IS snowing hard on the mountains around Vancouver at present, kind of neat, you can go jogging along the ocean front in shorts and singlet OR go snowshoeing/sking on 10-12 ft. of snow within a half hour's drive. Not many places like this, as long as we keep it the way it is supposed to be, wildlife, wilderness parks, clean lakes, fish and a decent society, mostly, with some social vermin, but, what state/province/city doesn't have some of those, eh?
338
Quote
if you were up close and personal with a big brown bear?


Easy decision-- 9.3x62

Neither... were I wanting a medium I'd do a 375 Ruger.
Originally Posted by Brad
Neither... were I wanting a medium I'd do a 375 Ruger.



Starting from scratch so would I........perhaps we still should there Mac?

It's be one heck of a yote rig.... smile

Dober
Quote
Neither... were I wanting a medium I'd do a 375 Ruger.


yep, or a 416, 423, 429, 458, 470 etc.

I think we can all agree that if it's hitting the fan, bigger is better.
i have only faced a griz and her cub once on a narrow trail to clear cut.My friend had a 308 win and i had a 7Rem Mag, this was 19 yrs ago. We were 40-50ft from them when they popped out of the brush, i whispered head shots only as the scope was full of the sow bears head. we waited them out and after some chomping licking the air and standing on tippy toes they went their way. The next season we had 338 winchesters with 250gr bullets and feeling a little better when walking. After thinking about it, i do not rush down a trail at dusk anymore, I leave time to walk slowly and observe my surroundings on the way to the hunting spot. Short , light, big bore, scoped down to 1.5 or 2x, slick functioning rifle is what will see you through these encounters, plus learning not to shoot unless absolutely neccessary as all hell breaks loose when you pull that trigger. A 35 whelen is good for this activity as are the various 9.3's. 375 HH generally need to be modified to foefill this function. Whn on the ground i like a good medium , when traveling from place to place a 3006 is good as well as for November deer hunting as the bears have gone to sleep. Your experience may vary.
I saw a bear in northern Wisconsin once so I'm intitled to an opinion. I pick 9.3X62 because that is what I own.
I did say - once - that the accomplishments of my Dad, my relatives and my ancestors was not a source of "pride" for me. I was merely pointing out, that to my way of thinking, "pride" comes out of one's own accomplishments.

I metioned my Dad's EXPERIENCE not as a source of pride - but as the voice of someone who's actual experience in regards to killing grizzlies, usually alone, and without a guide - bore listening to. My Dad did use calibers beyond 40 for grizzlies - but eventually settled on the 30-06, and the pump-action, as being "perfect" - for him.

I wanted to point out also that killing grizzlies is different from being around a lot of them. Heck, if being around game animals is what counts - my experiences with Whitetail deer, within 100 yards of my house, daily, probably trumps the Benoit family's experiences! I chase many of them away from my wife's roses and the cedar hedge every day. Sometimes in numbers that exceed 20 at a time.

But, I think you can see and appreciate the difference between doing that every day - and hunting them the way the Benoit family does. When it comes to hunting them - if the Benoits are talking - I'm listening!

It was that experiential knowledge about killing grizzlies that my Dad had, at length, and that's the reason I mentioned it. Not to brag about it - or as a source of my own pride - but rather as noting the experience of one who should be listened to.

The fact he regarded a short, light 30-06 pump as being his favorite - is, in my opinion, not to be discounted.

Now that he's gone, if I ever do shoot a big grizzly - since I can't have my Dad at my side - I can't think of many people I'd rather have at my side than you, Kutenay.

Originally Posted by Furprick
i have only faced a griz and her cub once on a narrow trail to clear cut.My friend had a 308 win and i had a 7Rem Mag, this was 19 yrs ago. We were 40-50ft from them when they popped out of the brush, i whispered head shots only as the scope was full of the sow bears head. we waited them out and after some chomping licking the air and standing on tippy toes they went their way. The next season we had 338 winchesters with 250gr bullets and feeling a little better when walking. After thinking about it, i do not rush down a trail at dusk anymore, I leave time to walk slowly and observe my surroundings on the way to the hunting spot. Short , light, big bore, scoped down to 1.5 or 2x, slick functioning rifle is what will see you through these encounters, plus learning not to shoot unless absolutely neccessary as all hell breaks loose when you pull that trigger. A 35 whelen is good for this activity as are the various 9.3's. 375 HH generally need to be modified to foefill this function. Whn on the ground i like a good medium , when traveling from place to place a 3006 is good as well as for November deer hunting as the bears have gone to sleep. Your experience may vary.


Good post,FP!

That is exactly what I had when I had a guy from California and one from the Prairies hunting Elk near White Swan in 1979. A really gorgeous Grizzly came up to within 10 yds. of us, their rifles were in the Suburban and I had my Ruger 77-7mmMag. with 4x Leupy shooting 175 WW PPs in my hands.

These two gents were solid but neither had ever seen a Grizz before, especially that close and the Yank had worked in Yellowstone quite a bit, while the other chap had only hunted deer. The besr was just curious and very calm, but, still, it does tend to make you kinda AWARE, you might say....I never went elk hungting again without one of my .338s and still don't.

Last season, we were in the Chilcotin, about 20K into South Chil. Park., packed in by one of the worst losers I have ever met and there were fresh tracks every morning, all week, at the waterhole about 200 yds. from our camp. I had a matched pair of P-64 .338s and my buddy had his custom ZG-47-9.3sx64 in carefully selected spots at the camp and all was cool.

So, I agree with you, FP, I do exactly what you do and I am quite confident in the .338, 9.3 or .375, any of these will work. It CAN be hard not to just shoot and kill the bear, but, that's not what I consider acceptable, just like killing game and leaving the meat to rot.
Originally Posted by BCBrian
I did say - once - that the accomplishments of my Dad, my relatives and my ancestors was not a source of "pride" for me. I was merely pointing out, that to my way of thinking, "pride" comes out of one's own accomplishments.

I metioned my Dad's EXPERIENCE not as a source of pride - but as the voice of someone who's actual experience in regards to killing grizzlies, usually alone, and without a guide - bore listening to. My Dad did use calibers beyond 40 for grizzlies - but eventually settled on the 30-06, and the pump-action, as being "perfect" - for him.

I wanted to point out also that killing grizzlies is different from being around a lot of them. Heck, if being around game animals is what counts - my experiences within 100 yards of my house probably trumps the Benoit family's experiences! I chase away many of them away from my wife's roses and the cedar hedge every day. Sometimes in numbers that exceed 20 at a time.

But, I think you can see and appreciate the difference between doing that every day - and hunting them the way the Benoit family does. When it comes to hunting them - if the Benoits are talking - I'm listening!

It was that experiential knowledge about killing grizzlies that my Dad had at length, and that's the reason I mentioned it. Not to brag about it - or as a source of my own pride - but rather the experience of one who should be listened to.

The fact he regarded a short, light 30-06 pump as being his favorite - is, in my opinion, not to be discounted.

Now that he's gone, if I ever do shoot a big grizzly - since i can't have my dad at my side - I can't think of many people I'd rather have at my side than you, Kutenay.




I am truely humbled by that, Brian, and was just trying to point something out here that is important to, IMO, both of us and others as well.

I knew a guy when I started this that shot a lot of West Kootenay Grizzlies with exactly that setup, but, I never have really trusted those rifles with handloads and so have prefered bolt actions, especially CRFs with field-strippable bolts.

I have been asked, quite a number of times, from my early 20s to accompany Grizzly hunters and have done so out of friendship. I am not especially afraid of them, but, I do feel better with the larger rifles. I started with a Browning Safari CRF .30-06 and it was a great rifle, but, this was when the young women were killed in Glacier Park quite close to where I was living solo in the FH Valley and, that winter, Harvey Cardinal was killed and partially devoured out of Fort Nelly; I knew one of the COs who hunted ans shot that bear, a real monster.

I think that refering to family situations is fine, of course I am proud of my relatives who volunteered and bled for Canada in both wars as is every other Canuck with veteran relatives I know or ever have known. I am also proud to be a member of a pioneer family, that was a major factor in my choice to become active in wilderness preservation, etc., in the early '60s when it was NOT cool and it eventually cost me a fine career in the B.C.F.S.....and I would do it again.

Pride that motivates one to excel is not a negative emotion, while a feeling of special status based on ethnicity IS. Have you EVER seen me claim anything other than equality or state that I should be allowed more Elk or Trout because of when my ancestors came here? That is, as we both know, what the real issue is.

Use an .06-220 NP if you prefer, lots of good men have, I would if I did not have these other rifles AND I just enjoy mucking about with many different guns...a very non-PC thing these days!
9.3x62
Some of you may recall the pictures I posted a couple years ago when my neighbor was charged by Grizzly sow with two cubs, he got one shot off as she came down on him and it entered just above her head and broke her spine, she died after knocking him down. This was a greenhorn to Alaska who had never even seen a bear before and his first encounter was being attacked, he was shooting a 30-06 with 180 grain bullets that he brought with him from down south. My answer to me is either gun mentioned as they are both more than capable of doing the job if you are adapt at using one of them.

The details about this event was he was running his two labs along the treeline in a large cleared LZ the military uses for training, and some guy had some snares along the tree line and had accidentally snout snared a cow mooose which had died, this sow and her cubs were feeding on the cow when he came down the treeline and suprised them.
Would nobody choose the Marlin 1895G 45-70? Would not a good 400 grain bullet from said gun do the job quite nicely? Personally, I can fire follow-up shots more quickly with a levergun than any bolt-action.

-
Neither-------- My 358 Norma w/ 280 Swifts
There's lots of performance overlap between most of the medium-bore cartridges, and quite honestly, I haven't even seen much significant difference between the 375 H&H and the 338 Win. Mag. as far as terminal results go, either.

I don't doubt that the 9.3x62 is an excellent cartridge, but I've been a 338 Win. Mag. fan for 28 years, and that's the cartridge I do most of my hunting with these days.

The next time I hunt grizzlies, it'll be with a 338 Win., and I won't be staying up nights wondering if it's enough gun, either.........

AD
i had a marlin lever in 45-70, shortened cartridge case so the canalure of a 350gr speer could be crimped, run these at 1850fps, real stout load. Two reasons why i got rid of it: shots where I hunt can range from 50ft to 400yds if conditions are right so I like a reasonably good stopper as well as one that can range out, most 06 based mediums will drop a bullet 24 or so inches at 400yds, 8-10 inches at 300. being a bolt gut all the life , except I was born smile with an 870 in my hands, I could or wood not spend the required time to become one with the marlin so for that reason I considered it more of a hazard on the short shots and ranging ability precluded long shots.
There are no flies on the 338Win, it is the prefered round for elk in these parts as g-bear are always present. My cousin has shot elk and g-bear with it, 225 FXB and Now TSX bullets work well. For me i have owned 2 338Wins, shot some moose and bears with the first one, the 2nd was bought because it was SS, couldn't get that one to shoot to my satisfaction so I let it go. What the whole experience taught me was big, fast, and or heavy is not the total answer in downing big game, game bigger than deer. The whole time during this 338 experment i was shooting game with the 35 Whelen. This round with the 250 gr FXB is equal aor better than the 338, I say better as it is easier to place shots well. I remember in 2001 I shot a bull moose, average big in size, guess 1100 lbs, with the 35. It was standing accross a small lake at just over 300yds facing us, my partner says to wait until it turns side ways, I said I can not knock him down with that shot, he needed to be knocked down on the spot as it wood take an hour to get to him,so with the 35 I amied for the point of his nose, the bullet entered center of the chest and was found under the skin near his anus, thats 7 ft of moose, he dropped on the spot and never moved. I wood not try that shot with anything less than a good medium.
When I was in Zimbabwe the PH handed me the regulations for calibers for each game species. The guide he handed me stated that the smallest caliber to be used on lion, buffalo,etc, was the 9.3 and it must have a muzzle energy of what came to factory specifations for a 9.3x74r, or a 9.3x62. A .338 Winchester exceeds these figures. Long story short: I killed a nice lion with my .338, as I did not have a 9.3 with me. Chronographed 9.3's usually are more than a little off what is written on the box.

I would chose a .338 Winchester everytime. I just happen to favor the .338.
Originally Posted by albertan
When I was in Zimbabwe the PH handed me the regulations for calibers for each game species. The guide he handed me stated that the smallest caliber to be used on lion, buffalo,etc, was the 9.3 and it must have a muzzle energy of what came to factory specifations for a 9.3x74r, or a 9.3x62. A .338 Winchester exceeds these figures. Long story short: I killed a nice lion with my .338, as I did not have a 9.3 with me. Chronographed 9.3's usually are more than a little off what is written on the box.

I would chose a .338 Winchester everytime. I just happen to favor the .338.
Yeah, I can't see a lion not going down to a .338 Win Mag.
Here's an interesting "cut and paste" from another thread.

I find it interesting what this professional Alaska Brown Bear guide is going to be using this year. As most people know, the average Alaska Brown bear is a LOT bigger than the average grizzly, and the average grizzly is a lot bigger than the average lion...

From Phil Shemaker - "I am loading up box of 30-06 with 220 Partitions and another with 220 Woodleighs and plan on using one or the other during this spring's bear season in my 30-06 as my back-up piece. In the past, in test media the 220 partitions from my 30-06 penetrate virtually identical to 300 gr partitons from the 375 H&H.

I have killed as many bears with my 30-06 and 200 partitons as I have with the various 375's and while the 375's sometimes (? !) seem to put them down a little faster - the difference is not much, nor as evident, as most people suspect.

I am not suggesting that the 30-06 is an equal to my 458 as a backup rifle - because it certainly is not - but when used by someone who can shoot it the 30-06 with today's best bullets is a perfectly suitable rifle for use on big bears."
_______________________
Phil Shoemaker

Interesting...
Originally Posted by BCBrian
Here's an interesting "cut and paste" from another thread.

I find it interesting what this professional Alaska Brown Bear guide is going to be using this year. As most people know, the average Alaska Brown bear is a LOT bigger than the average grizzly, and the average grizzly is a lot bigger than the average lion...

From Phil Shemaker - "I am loading up box of 30-06 with 220 Partitions and another with 220 Woodleighs and plan on using one or the other during this spring's bear season in my 30-06 as my back-up piece. In the past, in test media the 220 partitions from my 30-06 penetrate virtually identical to 300 gr partitons from the 375 H&H.

I have killed as many bears with my 30-06 and 200 partitons as I have with the various 375's and while the 375's sometimes (? !) seem to put them down a little faster - the difference is not much, nor as evident, as most people suspect.

I am not suggesting that the 30-06 is an equal to my 458 as a backup rifle - because it certainly is not - but when used by someone who can shoot it the 30-06 with today's best bullets is a perfectly suitable rifle for use on big bears."
_______________________
Phil Shoemaker

Interesting...
Hard to disagree with that. The .30-06 with 220s is an amazing stopper. With modern bullets, even better. It's the premier versatile big game round.
Quote
when used by someone who can shoot it


You can't sum it up any better than that.

I believe the old prize fighting saying, "Everyone has a plan, until they've been hit once", relates to more than just boxing. Reading all the "ultimate bear gun" threads over the past few years, I have read a lot of theories on how guys would handle a hell bent bear. Bottom line is this, the biggest factor that will dictate how an attack will end, has a lot less to do with caliber and a lot more to do with self control. Until you experience it, you can't know for sure how you will perform. People do silly things under pressure.

RO
RO, I think that makes alot of sense. No I haven't hunted big bears or even seen one shot; but I've spent sometime in my little tent,awake, with a death grip on the 30'06 pondering how I'll react if one of those 1000lb alaskan browns, feeding 20' away, in the middle of the night, comes looking for me.
It's amazing I slept at all.
I'm sure either .338 or 9.3x62 would work, it's me working, I'd be concerned about.
One problem about some guy's opinions, actually two problems is when they always use other's experience to bolster their own posts.

The second problem is that such posters seem to always develop an opinion, post it and then attempt to support it in every way possible, rather than posting an opinion based on whatever level of field experience THEY may/may not have.

I find this somewhat confusing as it does not provide the poster's personal experience, simply indicates his having read comments from others. I believe in posting opinions based on my own experiences, however limited these may be.

BC Coastal bears ARE as large as Alaskan bears, as I know from actually being there, not as a weekend tourist, but working in the field for substantial amounts of time. I do not see anyone here stating that the .30-06 is/is not a great game round, only an idiot would denigrate this proven cartridge...OR, the .375H&H, .338WM or 9.3x62, based on performance over decades in the field. So, whatever one's choice here is, the application is much the same between BC and AK.

The original topic was NOT "what is the best Grizzly cartridge" or even "Is the .30-06 equal to,etc.", as there are LOTS of perfectly adequate rounds for Grizzlies, just as one CAN kill Elk with a .25-06. The question was between TWO specific rounds and I find the constant co-option of these threads to "prove" one poster's strongly held opinions to be tendentious and distracting.

The last point made in the post above REALLY captures what the problem is and I have stood ready with my rifle, while watching grown men, with self-expressed considerable bush skill, babble and fumble their rifles, in the presence of their first Grizzly. I have seen this more than once and with Black Bears, as well.

So, to me, while ANYTHING Phil Shoemaker has to say about bears and suitable guns/cartridges for them is GOLD, as I have posted here many times, the choice between these TWO rounds is a "no-brainer"as they are about equal. I have often USED a .30-06 for protection while working solo in Grizzly country, but, given my choice as I am and having actually owned/loaded for and shot all of the cartridges mentioned here, I PREFER a larger bullet and my choices start at the .338WM.

You can find a number of strong recommendations for cartridges in Phil's writings, he is the one gunwriter I ALWAYS read and this is perfectly understandable as we cannot use ONLY the .30-06 and then have anything to write or even "net" about!

Now, that I HAVE my .458WM that I have been after for about 20 years, I fully intend to use it and expect that it WILL be adequate for what I intend it for.
Originally Posted by kutenay
One problem about some guy's opinions, actually two problems is when they always use other's experience to bolster their own posts.

The second problem is that such posters seem to always develop an opinion, post it and then attempt to support it in every way possible, rather than posting an opinion based on whatever level of field experience THEY may/may not have.


That is a pretty interesting statement.

Originally Posted by Kutenay


I have often USED a .30-06 for protection while working solo in Grizzly country, but,........I PREFER a larger bullet and my choices start at the .338WM.



But that statement isn't really correct. You haven't actually USED a .30-06 for protection while working. You've CARRIED a .30-06 for protection while working. There is a pretty big distinction there. You've never actually killed a grizzly bear by your own admission. So all that you really have is the OPINION that your caliber choice is superior to the '06 in bear stopping capabilities...Not the experience. (Not that I'm trying to say that the 338 is equalled by the 30.06.....)
I was waiting for someone else to point that out. Thanks!
I'm suprised no one else did....
Unless a guy is extremely well-heeled, or fortunate to live in the country, or a guide like Phil Shoemaker,he is highly unlikely to have the opportunity to shoot enough grizzly bears to become an expert at it, or at what it takes to put them down.

Plus, in addition to having the opportunity, you need the motivation to shoot them as well. They are not like deer, elk, moose, etc, where the food value of the animal is high, so some people, Kute included, see no need to shoot them except on a once(or twice, or three times) hunt of a lifetime, or in self-defense.

In my very limited experience, big bears die just like any other game animals,and there is not much mystery to it; just hit them well with good bullets!In fact I think that killing big game animals is by and large extremely simple, and a lot more is made of it than necessary.I number among my friends three people(all fairly experienced hunters)who have killed grizzlies with 270's;two with 130 Partitions and one with a 130 Bitterroot. The last was at short range to thwart a charge when he was retrieving cached sheep meat.One of these same guys also killed an Alaskan BB with the 160 partition from a 270.Another friend on the same trip killed his with a 7 mag and 175 partition.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that either of the cartridges mentioned here would work fine;or to figure that a 338 will make a bigger hole than a 30/06, or that a guy is justified in carrying the biggest rifle he can handle effectively for these animals.Once you've seen a few shot,and mix it with your experience on other big game any intelligent guy can make a reasonable choice in rifles for grizzlies or Alaskan browns.You don't have to shoot a hundred of them to know what works. This ain't nuclear physics.
I agree with some of your post. I've seen more than a few of the big bears shot, I've lived and hunted big bear country for a long time now. A moose is on par with a grizz, size wise, but not tenacity wise. A moose is a lot easier to kill. Not even in the same ball park. You shoot a moose through the belly, he'll stand there, or run a few yards, and wait for the end....A grizzly will actively come looking for you...Or he'll wait for you to come to him, and he'll WANT to get you. A big bull might try, if you screw up and bump into him, but he won't WANT to kill you.


But that is moot, as that wasn't what my comment was about...I simply find it odd that a certain contingent will immediately jump on E for his "cut and paste posts", yet when someone else does it (with exactly the same knowledge base and experience), its taken as sage advice...........
Kodiak: It gets ugly quick if you don't hit them right. I learned that early....I hit too high. I discovered you can't hit around the edges and get away with it.They must be hit "just so" smile
Aye....And even then, sometimes it doesn't work according to plan....

Called-in bears seem a bit tougher too....Adrenaline is already up, and they are looking for a fight at that point....Even blacks sometimes will continue to come to the call after they figure out what you are.......
That was a very good post, Bob, I think that you have "nailed it" and your wisdom is sound advice for anyone, IMHO.

I have been there at the death of about a dozen Grizzlies and have witnessed the effects of various rifles on them. My feeling based on this is that I prefer to use a "bigger hammer" and this is due to both knowing a couple of guys who were mauled and using various cartridges on a few dozen animals over 40+ years.

As I remember, I have watched guys shoot G-bears with .270W. .30-06, 7mmRem., .300Mag. and a .338W. I "might" be missing one or two here as most of this was back in the '60s and mistakes in memory DO happen.

While actually working in the wilderness, I tended to carry whatever hunting rifle I owned at the time and never had a purpose-built "Grizzly Rifle" (ta ra) until my last two seasons as a fire lookout with the AFS.

I have never shot a G-bear, as you noticed, simply because I never really wanted to, had no place to display the hide and was not rich enough to pay for the taxidermy. Almost all of the bush workers I worked with felt pretty much the same way and while we encountered the big guys, it doesn't happen as often as one might think, even in the most remote, bear rich parts of B.C.

The way I approach anything to do with outdoors activities, vocational and recreational, is quite simple as I believe in preparing for the worst that can happen, not, depending on "luck"to see me through an emergency situation. This is more important to a backpacker like me than it might be to a "quadjockey" who roars around logging roads, "experiencing the wilderness".

So, like many guys I know here in B.C., with 40+ years of bush experience, I tend to carry one of my .338s more often than not. This coming year, a buddy of mine really wants a Grizzly and I am getting a desire for one, as well, so, I hope to "break my cherry" and I know just where to go, based on many backpacking trips alone in the Kootenays.

Will I carry a .375H&H P-64 or will I carry the "new" Browning CRF .458WM, well, IF it is finished, gunsmiths being what they are, I "might". COULD I do it with a .30-06, well, I think so, but, since "gack" about all of this is what most of us log on for, why not discuss it and enjoy the discussion. Besides, I am in the middle of processing 200 rounds of virgin .458 brass I bought yesterday and THAT is NOT my favourite activity, I need a break from it.

Again, very solid post, tells it like it is.
Kodiak/Kutenay:: I have never been so nervous in the outdoors as when I had one back in the brush "demonstrate" and pop teeth on Admiralty... grin 375's undergo a significant "shrinking process".We backed off without incident,which was fine with me.

I have been left speechless by their power,agility,and ability to quickly negotiate rough thick terrain in an instant,and saw one "swim" over the tops of alders like a squirrel on a front-yard hedge.I thought my mind had played tricks till I could find no blood on the ground, looked up, and found it scattered through the tops of the alders.It was then that I realized that grizzlies ARE DIFFERENT, like NOTHING else here, and demand utmost respect and hunting discretion.

Thanks to both for an interesting thread.
Originally Posted by KodiakHntr
Originally Posted by kutenay
One problem about some guy's opinions, actually two problems is when they always use other's experience to bolster their own posts.

The second problem is that such posters seem to always develop an opinion, post it and then attempt to support it in every way possible, rather than posting an opinion based on whatever level of field experience THEY may/may not have.


That is a pretty interesting statement.

Originally Posted by Kutenay


I have often USED a .30-06 for protection while working solo in Grizzly country, but,........I PREFER a larger bullet and my choices start at the .338WM.



But that statement isn't really correct. You haven't actually USED a .30-06 for protection while working. You've CARRIED a .30-06 for protection while working. There is a pretty big distinction there. You've never actually killed a grizzly bear by your own admission. So all that you really have is the OPINION that your caliber choice is superior to the '06 in bear stopping capabilities...Not the experience. (Not that I'm trying to say that the 338 is equalled by the 30.06.....)


That's what I was thinking...
Who cares if the gun holds 5 rounds or 100? You're going to get off one maby two. given the choise between the two I'd take the 338 because I own one and I shoot it alot. Loaded with 250gr Partitions there isn't anything in North America that I would not hunt with that rifle.
Brian,

I did not see the original comments you quote as I have that poster on "ignore" in order to avoid needless strife here.

However, you seem confused about correct English usage here, again, and I will just clarify my earlier post for your benefit.

It IS correct to say that I have USED a .30-06 for PROTECTION in that I have CARRIED rifles chambered in this proven cartridge AND had them in my hands, pointed at a Grizzly which approached me far too closely for my comfort. I have also done this with a 7mmRM and both of these felt pretty damm tiny as I was within 10 yards of each bear.

So, it is correct to say that I CARRIED a given rifle for PROTECTION as it is to say that you may have an electronic alarm system in your home for PROTECTION. In this context, one can use either term interchangeably, as a check with your edition of "Fowler" will verify...do you have the latest edition?

Now, had I been forced to actually KILL one or more of these bears, it would THEN be correct to say that I USED a .30-06 for PROTECTION and/or for SELF DEFENCE, rather than saying I CARRIED said rifle for this purpose. So, your thoughts on this are merely based on a minor semantical point and really have little to do with the topic of the thread.

Happy to clear this up, old chap, as you know, after phone conversations where you have requested my assistance with backpack camping and wilderness gear to begin doing this very rewarding activity, my advice is honest, trustworthy and based on extensive field experience. I know that a man of your level of Grizzly-wilderness experience and self-proclaimed concern with environmental issues would not ask for my advice if it were not.

So, yes, I HAVE "carried" a .30-06 when working alone in Grizzly country, the last time was for 5.5 months alone on an Alberta Forest Service fire tower, BUT, when my favourite .338 WM was shipped to me, mid-season, after having a synthetic stock installed, I then "used" it by preference as I consider a .338-250 Nosler at 2700+ fps-mv to be a BETTER "stopper" based in what I have SEEN, than a .308-180 NP at the same velocity.

I have also CARRIED a Remington 870 12 ga. with Imperial slugs to PROTECT my reforestation crew, this was my first real supervisory position. I really did NOT trust that combo even on the yearling West Kootenay Blackie that I chased away from a bunch of self-styled "mountain men" on the crew, while they ran, screaming, over half the Lost Creek watershed. So, being a "starving student", I made do and did not lose a single draft dodger, which will, no doubt, make you happy, eh!

In THAT situation, I would AGREE with your opinion, as I understand it, this was where bigger is NOT better, due to other factors involved. So, we do concur on some aspects of this, at least. Given your concern for harmony on the Campfire, I trust that this will alleviate your confusion and allow you to enjoy your Sunday sports watching in peace, contentment and the knowledge that you and I agree on this issue. smile smile smile
Quote
It IS correct to say that I have USED a .30-06 for PROTECTION in that I have CARRIED rifles chambered in this proven cartridge AND had them in my hands, pointed at a Grizzly which approached me far too closely for my comfort. I have also done this with a 7mmRM and both of these felt pretty damm tiny as I was within 10 yards of each bear.

So, it is correct to say that I CARRIED a given rifle for PROTECTION as it is to say that you may have an electronic alarm system in your home for PROTECTION. In this context, one can use either term interchangeably, as a check with your edition of "Fowler" will verify...do you have the latest edition?


You ever consider pollitics??, you're a natural smirk grin

RO
Lots of interesting points brought up here and some guys have some clear field experience with bears and some are just making judgements of what they have read or think would work well. I think that the big bears both grizzly and browns get a lot of respect from folks, but we tend to put them on a higher pedestal as opposed to where they should be. These things get killed up here every year with calibers of guns of all different types as well as bow and arrow. I think the most accurate statement made so far was by BobinNH he said,

...It gets ugly quick if you don't hit them right. I learned that early....I hit too high. I discovered you can't hit around the edges and get away with it.They must be hit "just so"

Thats the bottom line. These are not ungulates they are predators and lobbing lead/copper via bad angles will get things [bleep] up in a hurry. Theres a lot of hunters out there that truly dont shoot well under pressure, then theres the group that absolutely cant wait for the optimum shot angle and try to compensate that with better bullets. The bottom line is with Bears, all of them, you have to make good shots, and pass on the bad shots. My 9 year old son shot a big black bear this past spring and I was backing him up when he made the shot at 15 yards. This black bear was just about as big as most grizzlies I have seen in our area. The boy made a not so good shot, and I was forced to empty my 338WM from awful angles, half hanging out of a tree, without clear shots but managed to break the bear down and kill him. I clearly agree that there is no worse feeling in the world for a hunter than seeing a big bear shot in anything but vitals. You'll only do it once, that I can assure you.
I would think that most answers from folks from the lower-48 would point to the 9.3, while most answers from Alaskans would point to the .338WM. As for me, I would prefer the .338WM loaded with 275-Aframe, or 300-grain Woodleigh. Simply as that.

Regardless of what any of us feels the 9.3x62 is, it's not much more powerful than a .338-06 loaded with a bullet of similar construction and weight, nor much more powerful that a .338 Sabi, nor a .35 Whelen. There is only so much powder you can stuff in that .30-06 size case, and each one of these would push a similar weight at a relatively close speed. AND no, don't tell me that any of these is similar or more powerful than a .375 H&H, because these aren't.
Originally Posted by kutenay
Canucks are COOL, we have the BEST beer, the most gorgeous babes and the biggest per capita, least polluted and most resource rich country on Earth. We are the best soldiers, hockey players, barroom brawlers, loggers, fishers, railroaders and general real men there is or is that are?

Our LIBERALS can whip anybody else and we also smell nice, just like Maple Syrup, Cedar shavings and roasting Moose meat!


One thing for sure: them female brunette Canuks are pretty:)
If all else fails, regardless of calibers make sure you and your partners are ready for the worst! This is the terminal result of a bear encounter gone wrong with 7 deer hunters on Kodiak. On the count of 3 everybody shoot works for me!



[Linked Image]


I am a 338 man myself,I like the 338 Win and have used it with complete satisfaction...
Originally Posted by Ray
... Regardless of what any of us feels the 9.3x62 is, it's not much more powerful than a .338-06 loaded with a bullet of similar construction and weight, nor much more powerful that a .338 Sabi, nor a .35 Whelen. There is only so much powder you can stuff in that .30-06 size case, and each one of these would push a similar weight at a relatively close speed. AND no, don't tell me that any of these is similar or more powerful than a .375 H&H, because these aren't.


Probably the most commonly used heavy bullet in the .338-06, .338 Sabi, and .35 Whelen (IMHO) is a 250 gr bullet. All three cartridges will shoot a 250 gr bullet at around 2400-2500 fps. (I'm being conservative here.) The most commonly used heavy bullet in the 9.3x62 is the 286 gr. The 9.3x62 can push a 286 gr bullet to around 2400-2500 fps.


From the article "Medium Mediums" by John Barsness:

[Linked Image]


So, just for comparison, I put together this table:

[Linked Image]

So, at least when using good handloads, I'd say the 9.3x62 can come pretty close to the .338 Win Mag and the .375 H&H.

Just my two cents....

Cheers!
-Bob F.



I own, load for and shoot various rifles in all the three chamberings and I agree with BFaucett, there really is little difference between them with the best loads.

Seems to me, that we have gone full-circle on this one, everyone has THEIR favourite and using what you shoot best is probably the wisest course of action. But, it's fun to speculate and discuss this as it "could" happen to anyone of us hunting in a fairly large section of North America....and I am GLAD that Grizzlies are still numerous enough that this can be a legitimate concern for us.
Originally Posted by BFaucett
Originally Posted by Ray
... Regardless of what any of us feels the 9.3x62 is, it's not much more powerful than a .338-06 loaded with a bullet of similar construction and weight, nor much more powerful that a .338 Sabi, nor a .35 Whelen. There is only so much powder you can stuff in that .30-06 size case, and each one of these would push a similar weight at a relatively close speed. AND no, don't tell me that any of these is similar or more powerful than a .375 H&H, because these aren't.


Probably the most commonly used heavy bullet in the .338-06, .338 Sabi, and .35 Whelen (IMHO) is a 250 gr bullet. All three cartridges will shoot a 250 gr bullet at around 2400-2500 fps. (I'm being conservative here.) The most commonly used heavy bullet in the 9.3x62 is the 286 gr. The 9.3x62 can push a 286 gr bullet to around 2400-2500 fps.


From the article "Medium Mediums" by John Barsness:

[Linked Image]


So, just for comparison, I put together this table:

[Linked Image]

So, at least when using good handloads, I'd say the 9.3x62 can come pretty close to the .338 Win Mag and the .375 H&H.

Just my two cents....

Cheers!
-Bob F.





Then, when using good handloads with the heaviest bullets for the .35 Whelen, a 300-grain Woodleigh with the .338-06 and the.338 Sabi, these three should come very close to the .375 H&H? My point is that "being close" is not the same as being just as or more powerful. If it was so, then would not be any reasons to use any cartridge from the .338WM to the .375 H&H.

Originally Posted by Ray
Then, when using good handloads with the heaviest bullets for the .35 Whelen, and a 300-grain Woodleigh with the .338-06, both should come very close to the .375 H&H?

My 2 cents.


(Ray, looks like I quoted your original statement before you edited your message.)

Well, it's all a matter of degrees. The .35 Whelen gets close to the 9.3x62 and, in turn, the 9.3x62 gets close to the .375 H&H.

But, I don't think the .338-06 and the .35 Whelen can come as close to the .375 H&H as the 9.3x62 can. I remember reading an article my Finn Aagaard where he got 2250 fps with a 300 gr Barnes Original bullet in the .35 Whelen. I have no idea what velocity a .338-06 could get with a 300 gr bullet but my GUESS would be a max of around 2200 fps.

And, while the 9.3x62 has a case very similar to the .30-06 (and the .338-06 and .35 Whelen), the 9.3x62 does have the shoulder a little further forward and the diameter at the shoulder is also a little greater which gives the 9.3x62 a little more powder capacity than the .338-06 and the .35 Whelen.

BTW, I have rifles in .338 Win Mag, .35 Whelen, 9.3x62 and .375 H&H. I like all of them. Though, of the four, I have only hunted with the 9.3x62 and the .375 H&H. (Plains game in South Africa. I've never hunted any type of dangerous game in either North America or Africa.)

Originally Posted by Ray
My point is that "being close" is not the same as being just as or more powerful. ...


Yeah, I'd agree with that. IMHO, the 9.3x62 is "more gun" than the .35 Whelen. And, the .375 H&H is "more gun" than the 9.3x62. More powder capacity and bullet weight wins out every time over a smaller cartridge when it comes to generating "horsepower". But, I think it's amazing how close the 9.3x62 can come to the .375 H&H (and the .338 Win Mag).


Cheers!
-Bob F.


I agree with you with in relation to the .35 Whelen and .338-06 when compared to the 9.3x62 as one "being more gun than the next," and that's exactly the points I was trying to make. To me at least, the .338WM is more gun than the 9.3x62, the same way the .375 H&H is more gun than the .338WM. But just being powerfully "close" to the next cartridge does not make it "the same".

Both the 9.3x62 and the .338 Sabi hold slightly more powder in their cases than the .338-06 and the .35 Whelen, but the latter get in fact "close" to the 9.3x62 and the Sabi when bullets that are similarly constructed and of similar weight are used. How close, relating to killing effect on game, is a matter of debate. At the same time, as one can create a good and stiff handload for the 9.3x62, so can one do the same for the .338WM, and also for the .375H&H and still maintain their respective lead over the first.
Going back to the original question...........338 for me.
Agreed, my two current 9.3x62 rifles and my gorgeous old Waffen-Oschatz sporter so chambered plus my Merkel drilling in 9.3x74R all do a comfortable 2400 fps-mv with the 286 NP and superb accuracy. I have not yet been able to obtain any Western Big Game powder to get the extra 100 fps. as shown in JB's loads, but, hope to as this makes the old gem of a cartridge a hell of a round, for any B.C. use, anyway.

My usual loads for my custom P-64-.375H&H "shorty" built specifically as a Grizzly protection rifle for working in northern B.C., with it's 20"bbl. give the 300NP about the same velocity and, although I can and have gone a tad "hotter" with this, the reliablity and "shootability" of this load, which clocks 2540 in my original P-64-,375 are so good that I consider it my best choice.

So, the REAL difference between the 9.3x62 and the .375H&H HERE is quite small and, after owning/using 7 CRF .375s, I can say that while you CAN do 2600 and even a tad more with the 300 NP, it becomes an exercise in diminishing returns due to the obvious increase in felt recoil. Since you have to HIT the bear or whatever to protect/defend yourself, the conclusion is obvious.

So, whether one uses/carries or simply is dreaming about a Grizzly hunt/defence situation, my opinion is that any of these rounds will work well and the best choice is the one chambered in the rifle YOU feel most competent with. One doesn't have to shoot an animal to determine this and since VERY few of us here have even SEEN a wild Grizzly OR shot one, this is the most commonsense approach.

Funny how Grizzlies seem to arouse as much antagonism as sleeping bag fills, wool versus synthetic longjohns and CRF versus PF....must be late winter cabin fever as it has snowed like hell here in Vancouver this weekend and kept me away from the range, others may be in similar straits and are getting ornery due to frustration, not being able to cheerfully blast those charging paper targets!
Originally Posted by Tom264
Going back to the original question...........338 for me.


Me too. smile smile
Bob
Small point on your chart... A 338-06 and a Whelen with the same weight bullet and velocity will not be running the same pressures...

As someone that has seen hundreds upon hundreds of wild brown/grizzly bears, shot two Kodiak bears of my own, been there when quite a few more were shot and been bluff-charged numerous times I am happier to see 30-06 in someone's hands than a 338 they are afraid of. I have seen more folks afraid of their 338 than any other cartridge.
YMMV
art
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Bob
Small point on your chart... A 338-06 and a Whelen with the same weight bullet and velocity will not be running the same pressures...


Oh, I agree. I was just trying to list a reasonable velocity range (2400-2500) that the .338-06 and .35 Whelen are capable of with a 250 gr bullet, for the sake comparison to the other cartridges.

-Bob F.

On the same token, a person who is proficient with a given gun, regardless of caliber can at times do very well in any situation. Of course, anything can happen if one's luck runs out. In the book titled Some Bears Kill, there is the story of a fellow from Florida, I believe, who was very proficient with his .30-06 over there. Then he moved to Alaska and became a resident. This time he was using a .338WM and loads with 250-grain Partition. He landed his boat, proceeded to walk on a trail looking for moose to hunt, and came upon four grizzly bears feeding on a moose carcass. I don't remember the exact details, but one of the bears ran and the rest charged. He managed to fire his rifle four times killing two of the bears and injuring the third, reloaded one round and shot the injured bear at point blank on the head killing it instantly.

I don't hunt bears, but I have great admiration for a person who can accomplish such a feat, and still live to tell the story without a scratch. Bud Kunkle, a guide from Fairbanks (long gone now) had killed grizzly bears on a full charge with his .30-06, but back then the .30-06 was the "big kid in the block" in Alaska, along the .375 H&H.

Now, regarding Alaska guns, this will give you some ideas:
http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=huntingbulletin.hntbul8#cartridges

Here is a reloading chart/ballistics for the 9.3x62, which shows a typical bullet speed with a 286 grainer. Some folks may be able to push the bullet speed past the recommended maximum, but the same can be accomplished with the .338WM, and the .375H&H. In fact I hear of .35 Whelen shooters who load 250-grain ammo for their rifles at 2,600 fps, and I have reached 2,700 fps with the same bullet weight in my .338WM using Nosler Partition bullets.
http://www.norma.cc/sortimentladd.asp?Kaliber=9,3x62&Lang=2

And here is another from "accuratereloading"
http://www.accuratereloading.com/9362.html
this discussion reminds me of the old "one shot stop" discusions regards handguns. While handgun use does not usually involve things with teeth sometimes a person has found a need to use one of them under very stressful conditions to prevent themselves from getting killed. I will never see a grizzly in my life, so my opinions don't really matter, but I am curious maybe one of the people who has actually killed a charging grizzly at close range can answer me this? If you have a gun in 30-06 that you can shoot and hit with and you don't piss or crap your pants but instead are able to shoot and hit, then how can a 220 grain .308 caliber Barnes bullet shot clear thru a bear be less effective than a 300 grain .37 caliber Barnes shot shot clear thru the same bear? A hole is a hole, I can see a problem if one does not shoot all the way thru the animal but if both do then a hole is a hole, one should stop/kill as fast as the other.
If I needed something larger than a 338WM, I would go straight to the 375 Ruger� I would not pass go, I would not collect $200.
That said speaking as one who have only seen a big bear in a zoo� 338WM.
Canucks have a lot going for them� beer is not one of them. I vote for English beer and the 338WM
I seriously doubt that you have ever tasted good Canadian beer and if you did, the quality would amaze you. I do not refer to liquid garbage like Molson's "Canadian" or Labatt's whatever, these are swill for the "lunchbuckets" to fuel their inadequate fantasies with; I mean REAL beer, such as many of those brewed here in B.C.

SOME British beers, notably those from "The Old Brewery" in Tadcaster, in Yorkshire, ARE wonderful, but, the Canadian brewing tradition is 400 years old, at least, this very year and we make brews equal to the finest anywhere.

Your vote for the .338WM saves you from SERIOUS Canuck wrath, like being drowned in a vat of Maple Syrple!!!!! smile
Originally Posted by Furprick
There are no flies on the 338Win, it is the prefered round for elk in these parts as g-bear are always present. My cousin has shot elk and g-bear with it, 225 FXB and Now TSX bullets work well. For me i have owned 2 338Wins, shot some moose and bears with the first one, the 2nd was bought because it was SS, couldn't get that one to shoot to my satisfaction so I let it go. What the whole experience taught me was big, fast, and or heavy is not the total answer in downing big game, game bigger than deer. The whole time during this 338 experment i was shooting game with the 35 Whelen. This round with the 250 gr FXB is equal aor better than the 338, I say better as it is easier to place shots well. I remember in 2001 I shot a bull moose, average big in size, guess 1100 lbs, with the 35. It was standing accross a small lake at just over 300yds facing us, my partner says to wait until it turns side ways, I said I can not knock him down with that shot, he needed to be knocked down on the spot as it wood take an hour to get to him,so with the 35 I amied for the point of his nose, the bullet entered center of the chest and was found under the skin near his anus, thats 7 ft of moose, he dropped on the spot and never moved. I wood not try that shot with anything less than a good medium.

I wanted to take my .35 Whelen with 250 gr FXB for grizzly but my guide talked me out of it. Things happened and I finally took my .416 Taylor with 350 grain TSX. After hearing of the 7 ft of penetration you got on a moose, I don't think I'd give it a second thought about taking the .35 Whelen in grizzly country. Barnes has stopped making the 250 grain flavor, more's the pity. I have a box of bullets left so a couple of hunting trips are still available before I have to downsize to 225 grain X bullets. The 9.3x62mm is nice in my CZ550 FS for a brush gun. I have debated on using a peep sight (NECG) but want to comparison test it side by side with my .375 Ruger Hawkeye, which has its peep sight ready for testing. The CZ 550 is heavy, 7.75 lbs without a scope, but points well. All of my .338 Win Mag experience has been with low power variable scopes and 24 inch barrels. I have no proof how well they'd work on something big, fast, and up close wanting to make people-burger out of me. More perforated pie plates at close range are needed or at least wanted. My wife thinks this is play, we armchair "grizzly bear" hunters know it is serious work. There is a good reason you can only hunt Alaska brown bear every four years, it takes that long to recover financially.
Lets see....up close and personal with a big brownie....make mine a 375 HH.
Polar bear with a .223 at 10 feet...

http://www.newsminer.com/news/2008/mar/28/polar-bear-killed-fort-yukon/

Blast from the past that popped up on some of my 9.3x62 searching around. Interesting theme here: seems to be some with 338 preferences will readily cede the 375 is ‘more’ over the 338, while a the same time arguing the 9.3 is ‘less’ than the 338?…..while there’s tons of other threads on the 9.3 vs 375 and putting them both in a similar ‘stopping’ ballpark, while not even considering the 338 in that same vein. Hmmm.
For me I would go with my 9,3x62 as I can work the bolt on it just a bit faster. Ideally I would have planned better and brought my .416 Rem Mag.
9.3x62 verses .338 mag discussions seldom mention the 3 shot magazine for the 338 and 5 shot magazine for the 9.3.
This scenario sounds like a wonderful opportunity for me to stand behind Mr. Shoemaker (458WIN) and let him do his thing!
I’d have no issue going bigger bore than a 9.3, but a bigger case is likely a detriment for many needs….there’s just no 400 whelen or other larger bore stuff that are commercialized that I know of. That’s a big deal if traveling sometimes.
IMO, with my perception of the OP, magazine capacity is pretty much irrelevant! If it’s an “up close and personal” encounter, with shots being fired……I’d consider myself very fortunate to have the opportunity to fire a second shot.

So to attempt to answer the question…….either, provided that relatively “heavy for caliber”, deep penetrating bullets are used!

If it’s truly an “up close and personal” encounter and I’m given the opportunity of “a” shot……I’d much prefer a handgun of at least 45 caliber using wide metplat cast bullets of at least 360 grains pushed to 1000 mv or a bit higher. With this I feel that multiple shots are a much greater possibility! Plus, it can be used with one hand or possibly while being “bear handled”….both of these are not a possibility with a long gun! Jus Say’n. memtb
No downside to extra capacity.... big downside to running out of ammo before the fight is finished.
I own a 9.3x62 , 338 , 375 & 458 , and live and hunt in grizzly bear country and find myself reaching for the 9.3 more often
I lived in Alaska 12 years and started hunting with 338 win mag .I had a bunch of grizzlies come try to get into my tent and that night I decided to bring a 416 rem mag from then on as my tent gun or truck gun .I had rem model 700 guide guns which were not stainless but had hs stocks on them and they were pretty light 7.5 pounds but kicked less than my 9.5 pound win model 70 in 416 .It's just a good life insurance policy close up .A friend who guided for alaaka coatal bears got charged full on by a ten footer The client shot it 3 times with a 358 Norma mag then he shot it 4 times with Barnes x bullets from a 416 Taylor. THOSE bullets failed bad but the bear finally died .He switched to 410 gr woodleigh bullets .
What are you guys that have bear experience thoughts on 45/70 guide guns and 444p outfitters for big bears. I spend quite a bit of time picking huckleberry with my kids in an area that my friends have caught a huge grizzly on trail camera. It was actually IDmilton here on the fire that got the pics of the big bear in the area we camp and puck berries.

I used to bow hunt in island Park a lot up until 5 or 6 years ago and there are lots of big bears there and they aren't afraid of anything because they've never been hunted.

I used to carry a little 20" stainless m77 338 rcm with 225g interbonds at nearly 2700 when camping and berry picking in island park and other bear areas. I've since switched to taking my 45/70 guide gun or lately my 444p marlin outfitter. The 45/70 load I used to carry just kicks too much and my guide gun isn't ported to barrel rise is huge too. A 350g Hornady flat nose at 2100 fps is just too much for me these days. My ported 444 with 270g Speers at 2200 is much more shootable for me lately. I've been working on some 420g cast loads for the 45/70 at about 1600fps.

Might not have time for more than 1 shot but if I did the 444 would be quicker. Often I find myself laying the rifle down while we pick anyways but I always have a 329 pd a mtn gun 44 or 45 or a xdm10mm on my hip. I get much more nervous camping in bear areas with my kids than I every did bow hunting by myself. I just don't even enjoy camping with my kids near island park with all the bear sign in there. My wife always wants to go anyways but she hasn't seen what I have. I try to camp in other non grizzly areas whenever I can these days. As far as but guns go I often wish I would have picked up a cz550fs in 9.3x62 when they were cheap and available. Something like that with a 20" barrel and open sights with 5 in the mag seems like an ok option.plus they feed better than my 338 rcm did or my 300 wsm does.

Bb
I've killed three black bears (two were 6-footers) using my 9.3 x 62. As handloaded it's easily the equal of a .338 Win Mag in KE with higher momentum and wider bullets. The last 2 were killed from single shots from 68 to 85 yards - one with a 286 Partition at +2600 fps and the last from a 250gr AB at 2700 fps. They both went about 20 - 25 yds. They were not CNS hits. So, the 9.3 x 62 (nor .338 Win, nor .375 H&H) are stoppers unless it's a CNS hit. In sharp contrast, the .45-70 IS if the right bullet is used (400gr at 2000 - 2100 fps) even without a CNS hit. That's why for my bear hunt this spring, I'll be toting my Ruger No.1 in .458 Win Mag firing the Federal 400gr TBBC at 2250 fps - a first for me in ever using factory ammo in any .458 Win Mag or .45-70.

As it's been pointed out by a few on this thread, according to the OP's criteria, this topic has/had reference to an "in your face" encounter - not a chance for multiple shots! One shot and whatever happens, happens. I've written much about this in my blogs. A stopping RIFLE, not one that is loaded with +3 - 5 is going to save the day and a life!

Full penetration from a .338 cal may be the same as a .458 but there's a HUGE difference in the size of the wound channel! How do I know - just ask me!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca
I can't say.
I owned and used a 338 Mag for several years and with good bullets I never had a thing to complain about. (some of the 225 grain bullets I used were poor and broke up too much to give me the penetration I wanted)

I now own a 9.3X62 and for about 6 years before I made one for myself, I'd made about a dozen for customers and went hunting with several of them, so I got to see the effects of the 9.3X62 several times before I made my own. I have seen about the same number of kills with the 338 Win as I now have with the 9.3X62. (Probably about 1/2 of those 338 kills were mine and the other half done by hunting partners) The 338 shoots flatter but kicks a bit more (faster kick so it seems) but the 9.3 has been wonderfully effective.

The 9.3X62 holds 5 rounds in it's mag where my 338 held 3.
The 9.3 works very well in a shorter barrel. The 338 Mag does better than many would think it would with a 20" barrel, but it does give up a larger percentage of it's speed with a shorter barrel then the 9.3 (I doubt it really matters in the field)
The largest animals I have seen both cartridges used on were Bison. (neither were my kills) Again, no real difference so far.

I like the 9.3 and no longer own any 338s. But if I am honest with myself I have to admit that killing about 20 head of game with the 338 and about 10 with my 9.3X62 as well as about 30 with my 9.3X74R, (same bullets at the same speed) some of my love for the 9.3s may simply be a love grown from success, and having more kills with my 9.3s (two 9.3X57s one 9.3X62 and one 9.3X74R then I did with my 338s. It may just be a matter of 'emotion'.


Neither will be a bad gun or cartridge. Just use a bullet that is not prone to break up much at close range in either gun and you'll be fine. As with all big game rifles the real secret is not the shell case but the quality of the bullet you use. Given a good tough bullet I doubt there would be enough difference between them to really tell.
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