Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
In your opinion, how do they stack up against modern production rifles such as a Remington Model 700, etc.?
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
My late dad was a tool and die maker and in fact owned his own shop. As a small child I would be in there with him on Saturdays and maybe Sunday. My job was to sweep the wood floor of chips. He made precision tools, fixtures and dies. One of the products that he made for a while was a vise called the Versa Vise. It was a swiss watch of universal fixtures. I did a search and the Versa Vises were not what he made.
Later I learned to operate the Bridgeports and the South Bends. I still have one of the South Bends.
My point is that I appreciate fine machinery. The pre 64 M70's along with some other Winchesters of that era are fine machinery.
The M721-2 and 700 series rifles were the least expensive designs that they could come up with in the post war 40's. The bolt lug section is brazed to the bolt body, the bolt handle is just similarly tacked to the bolt body with no interlock. We used to call stuff made like that made by shoemakers.
Now my favorite match rifle is a Remington 40X both .22LR and CF but for the field the pre 64 M70 is the Valhalla, the ne plus ultra of USA>firearms.
Therefore there is no comparison.
Later I learned to operate the Bridgeports and the South Bends. I still have one of the South Bends.
My point is that I appreciate fine machinery. The pre 64 M70's along with some other Winchesters of that era are fine machinery.
The M721-2 and 700 series rifles were the least expensive designs that they could come up with in the post war 40's. The bolt lug section is brazed to the bolt body, the bolt handle is just similarly tacked to the bolt body with no interlock. We used to call stuff made like that made by shoemakers.
Now my favorite match rifle is a Remington 40X both .22LR and CF but for the field the pre 64 M70 is the Valhalla, the ne plus ultra of USA>firearms.
Therefore there is no comparison.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
After owning a few pre 64s, I believed all the hype. They are fantastic rifles and I could never see me wanting any type of 700 over an original pre 64 M70 in GC. Especially Fwts and Westerners. My gunsmith calls them the standard of what a quality made rifle is supposed to be. FWIW.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
I loaded some ammo for my pre-64 .30-06 yesterday. I had it out of the safe to establish the COL for my new load. When I was done I cleaned it and looked it over - it exudes an ambiance that is missing from all the modern rifles (to include the Classic M70 re-introduced pre-64 style rifles). Those old rifles were made as standard grade rifles in an era where standard grade was good stuff - better than my Classic Super Grade.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
Originally Posted by GA270
In your opinion, how do they stack up against modern production rifles such as a Remington Model 700, etc.?
you have to define "stack up". Most modern production rifles are more than accurate enough, and function reasonably well enough to take game
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
The pre-64 stock and custom rifles in my safe will be the last ones to go (if I am still alive)...
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
A Rem 700 isn't built the way they used to make the Pre-64 M70. If I was given a choice between the two, the Pre-64 wins.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
My oh my... where to begin..... Sigh.....
1) Controlled round feeding VS Push feed, Model 70 wins
2) Fixed blade extractor VS smallish spring clip, model 70 wins
3) fixed blade ejector VS plunger type ejector, model 70 wins
4) flat bedding surface and machined steel action housing vs. a round steel tube, model 70 wins yet again.
Style, grace, ambiance, panache whatever you want to call it, My view is that the model 70 has it all over a Model 700. Preparing to don flame suit!
Model 700's are good enough for most people and much hunting, I prefer model 70's by a wide margin. I also like the later model 70 Classics quite a lot. Some modern rifles are quite good equipment including Sako,CZ, Cooper and Kimber. My .02 since it was asked of me.
1) Controlled round feeding VS Push feed, Model 70 wins
2) Fixed blade extractor VS smallish spring clip, model 70 wins
3) fixed blade ejector VS plunger type ejector, model 70 wins
4) flat bedding surface and machined steel action housing vs. a round steel tube, model 70 wins yet again.
Style, grace, ambiance, panache whatever you want to call it, My view is that the model 70 has it all over a Model 700. Preparing to don flame suit!
Model 700's are good enough for most people and much hunting, I prefer model 70's by a wide margin. I also like the later model 70 Classics quite a lot. Some modern rifles are quite good equipment including Sako,CZ, Cooper and Kimber. My .02 since it was asked of me.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
GA270-I believe the pre-64 M70 is the best standard production hunting rifle ever made. I particularly like the featherweights, and as long as I am able to hunt, I won't use anything else. No disrespect for the other fine rifles out there.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
I remember the Versa Vice. You should be proud of your Dad. Quality never goes out of style. Thanks...Bill.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
Originally Posted by GA270
In your opinion, how do they stack up against modern production rifles such as a Remington Model 700, etc.?
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
After having played with,shot,hunted with and loaded for so many different rifles of various brands over the last 30+ years that I can't begin to remember them all, pre64's(or customs built on the actions) are all I hunt with for the most part, anymore.
Remingtons are good,solid,safe,reliable rifles that generally do all that can be expected of a rifle.I've hunted with them and shot thousands of rounds through them.Would I take one on a hunt where I'm spending thousands of dollars; for dangerous animals;in wilderness country under tough conditions;or for ANY hunt that is important to me?.............uh, no.
Remingtons are good,solid,safe,reliable rifles that generally do all that can be expected of a rifle.I've hunted with them and shot thousands of rounds through them.Would I take one on a hunt where I'm spending thousands of dollars; for dangerous animals;in wilderness country under tough conditions;or for ANY hunt that is important to me?.............uh, no.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
Originally Posted by BobinNH
Remingtons are good,solid,safe,reliable rifles that generally do all that can be expected of a rifle.I've hunted with them and shot thousands of rounds through them.Would I take one on a hunt where I'm spending thousands of dollars; for dangerous animals;in wilderness country under tough conditions;or for ANY hunt that is important to me?.............uh, no.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
Being measured mostly by my desire to take each of them hunting, this is pretty much subjective, but here goes. My pre-64 Featherweight is at least the equal of my Sako 75, Sako 85, and Kimber 8400. My two Remington 700's and my last-year-of-New Haven-production M70 Classic Featherweight were nowhere close as they came from the factory. To reduce the apples to oranges factor, all of these are wood stocks.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
If you walked up to a table with 8 or 10 rifles bolt action rifles of different brands and makes displayed, and one of those was a pre 64 M70, your eyes would automatically pick out the M70, ignoring all the others.
There is something about a plain M70, if there is such a thing as a plain M70, that just says "Class." Nothing else can compare, although if there were a few pre 64 M64s and M94s, along with a M71 and M86 displayed, your eyes might wonder a bit before going back to the M70.
There is something about a plain M70, if there is such a thing as a plain M70, that just says "Class." Nothing else can compare, although if there were a few pre 64 M64s and M94s, along with a M71 and M86 displayed, your eyes might wonder a bit before going back to the M70.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/13/08
No modern factory rifle approaches the pre 64 model 70, or the old Browning Safaris.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/14/08
These guys are all right on the money in what thay say but I will add that you should avoid them like the plague because once you've used one a bit they will be all you want. I bought my first, a Westerner in 264 Win mag, a couple years ago and now I'm up to four as I slowly but surely replace everything else with more pre-64s. You've been warned.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/14/08
I've gotta line up with the rest of you guys. The pre-64 is pure magic..it has an aura about it. Once you hold one in your hands you can feel it..pretty dramatic, but winchester guys know what I mean. Engineering excellence and craftsmanship make it the standard by witch all others are judged. My rifle is not a tool, but part of the hunting experience.
I live about 20 mi from the old winchester plant, and I will never forget a sign I saw. It said,"Through these doors have passed the finest craftsmen in the world"
art
I live about 20 mi from the old winchester plant, and I will never forget a sign I saw. It said,"Through these doors have passed the finest craftsmen in the world"
art
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/14/08
To add to that, when you look at a rack of rifles at the gun store it becomes easy to pick out the pre64's even from a distance.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/14/08
Redneck: I am trained by my profession to take both sides of an argument....at the same time! 
Seriously, with millions in circulation and lots of happy users,no one can say Remington 700's, Ruger M77's, Sako's etc are not solid gear.But having used them all I just have come to appreciate the design features of a pre 64 and the way they were put together.IME they can be trusted to deliver;anything can break or fail to work, but as a general rule, a pre 64 is going to deliver the goods.
I bought a couple this year so far; two standard grade 30/06's,one has yet to be fired. The other has so-so wood,but good metal. I tightened the guard screws mounted a 2.5-8VXIII with B&C reticle,and fed it 58-H4350-165 Sierra SBT's, and watched it pile 8-10 shots into a big hole at 100.I then took it to 600 yards where it shot two groups of slightly below and slightly above MOA.
No bedding job, no fancy break in, no flyers, no failures to feed, extract, eject, no gunsmith magic....I have a safe full of them that all do the same thing.And over the years I can only remember a couple that were lemons. I have never had or seen a failure afield with them; something I cannot say about some other makes.
They are "money" rifles.
Seriously, with millions in circulation and lots of happy users,no one can say Remington 700's, Ruger M77's, Sako's etc are not solid gear.But having used them all I just have come to appreciate the design features of a pre 64 and the way they were put together.IME they can be trusted to deliver;anything can break or fail to work, but as a general rule, a pre 64 is going to deliver the goods.
I bought a couple this year so far; two standard grade 30/06's,one has yet to be fired. The other has so-so wood,but good metal. I tightened the guard screws mounted a 2.5-8VXIII with B&C reticle,and fed it 58-H4350-165 Sierra SBT's, and watched it pile 8-10 shots into a big hole at 100.I then took it to 600 yards where it shot two groups of slightly below and slightly above MOA.
No bedding job, no fancy break in, no flyers, no failures to feed, extract, eject, no gunsmith magic....I have a safe full of them that all do the same thing.And over the years I can only remember a couple that were lemons. I have never had or seen a failure afield with them; something I cannot say about some other makes.
They are "money" rifles.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/14/08
I wonder why they cost so much nowadays? 
-jeff
-jeff
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/14/08
Originally Posted by Jeff_O
I wonder why they cost so much nowadays?
-jeff
-jeff
supply and demand, like anything else.
personally, I think the shooter grade ones are an absolute bargain at the $550-900 they go for around here, in comparison the selling prices of most current production rifles.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/14/08
Bob,
I had pretty much the same experience with the pre-64's I had. One was a 1954 vintage .30/06 with a 4X Redfield that placed 20 Western loaded 180 grain match bullets in a 1" hole at a 100 yards. They all tended to group well. I wonder if it had something to do with the "goose egg"on the barrel and the foreend screw that was threaded to it?
Anyway I found them kind of heavy and a bit awkward.
John
I had pretty much the same experience with the pre-64's I had. One was a 1954 vintage .30/06 with a 4X Redfield that placed 20 Western loaded 180 grain match bullets in a 1" hole at a 100 yards. They all tended to group well. I wonder if it had something to do with the "goose egg"on the barrel and the foreend screw that was threaded to it?
Anyway I found them kind of heavy and a bit awkward.
John
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/14/08
free miner, I agree... I was making a (bad) joke because you guys sure have the DEMAND part of it goin' on in this thread!
Lotta love for the M70 here. Which is great, don't get me wrong, but it's easy to see why they are skyrocketing...
-jeff
Lotta love for the M70 here. Which is great, don't get me wrong, but it's easy to see why they are skyrocketing...
-jeff
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/14/08
I been buying them for almost 30 years now and still hunt with them.Compare them to a Dakota,they're still under-priced...
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/14/08
I have a M700, and I have owned Rugers and other rifles. The Remington is okay, but it is just a hunting tool. A very reliable and smooth operating tool, but still a tool. So are the others.
But, a pre 64 M70 is a work of art. It is also a tool, but what a tool! Nothing else compares.
Well, I do have a custom rifle on a commercial FN Mauser action with a Douglas barrel. It might get a few glances if mixed in with a M70 display. It rates pretty high, in my opinion.
But, a pre 64 M70 is a work of art. It is also a tool, but what a tool! Nothing else compares.
Well, I do have a custom rifle on a commercial FN Mauser action with a Douglas barrel. It might get a few glances if mixed in with a M70 display. It rates pretty high, in my opinion.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/14/08
For a dangerous game rifle I demand a control feed and that being a Mod-70 or better yet a custom Mauser..All my big game rifles are Mausers or M-70 pre 64s.
For varmints I don't mind the Rem 700, they are accurate rifles for sure and only on rare ocassions have I suffered a varmint charge or one that could bite through my boot!
The Ruger 77s are a fine rifle and they have the control feed feature..The safari model is a fine rifle IMO, a lot of gun for the money...
For varmints I don't mind the Rem 700, they are accurate rifles for sure and only on rare ocassions have I suffered a varmint charge or one that could bite through my boot!
The Ruger 77s are a fine rifle and they have the control feed feature..The safari model is a fine rifle IMO, a lot of gun for the money...
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/15/08
There's a huuuuge gap between "varmints" and "dangerous game" that includes just about all the critters most people hunt... my M700's do me just fine on the big game species I hunt with them.
Not a knock on the M70 at all, just a reaction to how Mr. Atkinson phrased it above. And not a knock at you either, Ray.
-jeff
Not a knock on the M70 at all, just a reaction to how Mr. Atkinson phrased it above. And not a knock at you either, Ray.
-jeff
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/15/08
Originally Posted by safariman
My oh my... where to begin..... Sigh.....
1) Controlled round feeding VS Push feed, Model 70 wins
2) Fixed blade extractor VS smallish spring clip, model 70 wins
3) fixed blade ejector VS plunger type ejector, model 70 wins
4) flat bedding surface and machined steel action housing vs. a round steel tube, model 70 wins yet again.
Style, grace, ambiance, panache whatever you want to call it, My view is that the model 70 has it all over a Model 700. Preparing to don flame suit!
Model 700's are good enough for most people and much hunting, I prefer model 70's by a wide margin. I also like the later model 70 Classics quite a lot. Some modern rifles are quite good equipment including Sako,CZ, Cooper and Kimber. My .02 since it was asked of me.
1) Controlled round feeding VS Push feed, Model 70 wins
2) Fixed blade extractor VS smallish spring clip, model 70 wins
3) fixed blade ejector VS plunger type ejector, model 70 wins
4) flat bedding surface and machined steel action housing vs. a round steel tube, model 70 wins yet again.
Style, grace, ambiance, panache whatever you want to call it, My view is that the model 70 has it all over a Model 700. Preparing to don flame suit!
Model 700's are good enough for most people and much hunting, I prefer model 70's by a wide margin. I also like the later model 70 Classics quite a lot. Some modern rifles are quite good equipment including Sako,CZ, Cooper and Kimber. My .02 since it was asked of me.
Left Hand pre-64 models...700
If they would have made a LH pre-64 I wouldn't own a Remmy.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/15/08
What can I say that the others haven't? It's the rifle by which all others are judged. When is the last time you heard someone compare the workmanship of a rifle to a 700 or a Ruger 77? I have lots of guns including some pretty nice custom jobs but none rate against my Pre '64 FTW. When you pull one out of the case you automaticly get peoples attention. It's kind of like pulling up in a 1969 Plymouth Hemi Superbird.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/15/08
Originally Posted by atkinson
For a dangerous game rifle I demand a control feed and that being a Mod-70 or better yet a custom Mauser..All my big game rifles are Mausers or M-70 pre 64s.
For varmints I don't mind the Rem 700, they are accurate rifles for sure and only on rare ocassions have I suffered a varmint charge or one that could bite through my boot!
The Ruger 77s are a fine rifle and they have the control feed feature..The safari model is a fine rifle IMO, a lot of gun for the money...
For varmints I don't mind the Rem 700, they are accurate rifles for sure and only on rare ocassions have I suffered a varmint charge or one that could bite through my boot!
The Ruger 77s are a fine rifle and they have the control feed feature..The safari model is a fine rifle IMO, a lot of gun for the money...
Exactly my feelings and sentiments, as well as usage. My lone model 700 is a 22-250AI. Great for its intended purposes, but the 25 cal and up stuff is all model 70, custom mauser or customized and smoothed up CZ's.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
Originally Posted by GA270
In your opinion, how do they stack up against modern production rifles such as a Remington Model 700, etc.?
Now that right there is really a FUNNY question.
Rock on !!
MM
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by GA270
In your opinion, how do they stack up against modern production rifles such as a Remington Model 700, etc.?
Now that right there is really a FUNNY question.
Rock on !!
MM
Yea, the short answer is that 700s and 77s don't stack up.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
No Remingtons and Rugers don't stack up,but I will say I have found the Ruger to be a great travel rifle.If and when the airline loses it,it's replaceable.I don't fly overseas anymore with my pre-64's,they're not.
A Ruger 77,triggered,bedded and the rings lapped have made a good hunting tool.I only have one Remington,an LV for shooting 'grass Rats'.My Ruger DG gun is a RSM .458 Lott and it shoots well.I tried Dakotas,overpriced,Kimbers too many small things broke.
My small collection of Winchesters range almost thru the whole production time,pre-war to 1963 and I have found nothing to match them.I have a few Mausers from the same time period,but while nice handwork,just don't fit the same. another 2 cents...
A Ruger 77,triggered,bedded and the rings lapped have made a good hunting tool.I only have one Remington,an LV for shooting 'grass Rats'.My Ruger DG gun is a RSM .458 Lott and it shoots well.I tried Dakotas,overpriced,Kimbers too many small things broke.
My small collection of Winchesters range almost thru the whole production time,pre-war to 1963 and I have found nothing to match them.I have a few Mausers from the same time period,but while nice handwork,just don't fit the same. another 2 cents...
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
"rifle" hit the nail on the head in comparing them to a Dakota.Look at the price of those and you can understand why a pre64 is still a good value in the overall scheme of things. Or compare a Kimber Caprivi at $3000+. At that price point I'll find a pre64 375 instead(don't have to, I already own two).The Ruger is my preference among stuff currently made in that price category.
I agree with Ray Atkinson when it comes to hunting rifles and will add that my deer hunts ARE important to me so I make no distinction and use a pre 64 for about everything these days.I'd use a Mauser as quick if I had one right now(in process).
.....I was "charged" by a woodchuck once....and several times by cattle as I passed through their pastures,so you never know when your varmint rifle may have to become a "dangerous game rifle"...
I agree with Ray Atkinson when it comes to hunting rifles and will add that my deer hunts ARE important to me so I make no distinction and use a pre 64 for about everything these days.I'd use a Mauser as quick if I had one right now(in process).
.....I was "charged" by a woodchuck once....and several times by cattle as I passed through their pastures,so you never know when your varmint rifle may have to become a "dangerous game rifle"...
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
I think a lot of people have been charged by Groundhogs..some will admit it, some don't...I think it has to do with a Witness.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
rifle: He may have just been trying to get away for all I know... I may have been in the way....
I may have been in the way....
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
Great fun with a rifle tho...
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
Anyway I found them kind of heavy and a bit awkward.
John[/quote]
RX for that would be to find an M70 Featherweight with monte carlo stock.
YMMV.
Bob
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
John: I remember your 30/06. That was a nice rifle.Yes, they can be heavy, but mostly I use the FW's with/without a new synthetic stock.Even the standards with a synthetic lighten up OK. In some calibers, like the 300's 338 and 375, I will tolerate a bit more weight to cut the recoil
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
Is the P-64 safety in the same place as on a Kimber (that has the 3-position safety that is)?
I don't really care for the positioning of that 3-pos safety on my Kimber. Much prefer the M700 safety. I get it on and off much more quietly and with less disruption to my right hand's shooting position.
Just a teensy detail... and just something that bugs ME. Probably because I mostly shoot M700's.
-jeff
I don't really care for the positioning of that 3-pos safety on my Kimber. Much prefer the M700 safety. I get it on and off much more quietly and with less disruption to my right hand's shooting position.
Just a teensy detail... and just something that bugs ME. Probably because I mostly shoot M700's.
-jeff
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
Get more Kimbers and a few pre-64's and you'll get used to it and then the 700 safety will bug you.....
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/16/08
Jeff: I have shot game hightailing through the timber and never noticed pushing the M70 safety off.Closest was a whitetail buck I had snow-tracked at about 30 feet, that did not know I'd snuck in on him...noise was not a factor; the trick is to shoot them before the sound of the safety going "off" gets to them..... 
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/17/08
Originally Posted by BobinNH
the trick is to shoot them before the sound of the safety going "off" gets to them.....
Better grab your knee high rubber boots!!
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/17/08
Odessa: Mission accomplished...
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/17/08
I'm thinking, some blue muzzle tape, and that 3-pos safety, a cold chamber, and I'll never kill another deer! :-)
It's fine. It's just, with my M700's I can just reach up with my ape-like thumb (I have big hands) and literally sort of do the CRF of safety disengagement: control it the whole way, so that it's silent. With the Kimber 3-pos I have to rotate my right hand up out of the killin' position and there's no avoiding the "click".
Completely irrelevant to the vast majority of hunting scenarios...
-jeff
It's fine. It's just, with my M700's I can just reach up with my ape-like thumb (I have big hands) and literally sort of do the CRF of safety disengagement: control it the whole way, so that it's silent. With the Kimber 3-pos I have to rotate my right hand up out of the killin' position and there's no avoiding the "click".
Completely irrelevant to the vast majority of hunting scenarios...
-jeff
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/17/08
I've shot deer as close as 20 yards and the click of the safety going off was never an issue. If the deer is close enough to be scared by me taking the safety off then I've either shot it or I am not going to. But I might smack it over the head because that's about how close it would have to be.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/17/08
Gee! You guys are causing me to have second thoughts. I saw one today with a $600 tag on it. Might have to go back and give it a serious look, and see if I can weasle him down. Should have stayed off of here this evening.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/17/08
So Jeff, imagine how much fun you'd have with one of Stuart Satterlee's left side 3 ways.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/17/08
Landsend, I actually think having the safety on the left side (of my Kimber, the only thing I have that is P-64ish) would be better! For me, with my prehensile thumbs and all... :-)
-jeff
-jeff
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/17/08
For $600 I'd have to try REAL hard to talk myself out of it. Especially if it wasn't a 30-06, which I already have.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/17/08
Hunterbug: Geeezz! Have a decision to make. Went back to the neighboring town and cruised the entire rack. The pre 64 was still there, and just down a bit was a Sako. Both are 300 Win's and both are packing the same price tag. Exterior ondition was a little better on the Sako and the barrel was quite dirty on the Winchester. Think I'll go back tomorrow and ask if I can clean the barrel on Winchester. I was impressed with the machining on the Sako too. So much to do and so little time. 1Minute
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/17/08
1minute - if the pre 64 is an original (not a rebarrel) and in any kind of decent shape, it is worth way more than the asking price. You are CRAZY if you don't buy it.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/18/08
Bob,
The M70 .30/06 you mentioned was a prewar. The foreend had split and I had it restocked by Bishop's. When I bought if from Abercrombie & Fitch's in 1964 it weighed 10 pounds encluding a 4X Weaver and Lyman # 48 base. After restocking and removing the 48 it still weighed 9 pounds. Now I have some of the so-called CRF M70's I've done most of my hunting with the one in .300 Win. Mag.Its been very reliable and it has been with me on two trips to Namibia. It has the same safety, trigger, extractor and bolt handle as the older M70's and losing one intransit wouldn't be as bad as losing a pre-54.
John
The M70 .30/06 you mentioned was a prewar. The foreend had split and I had it restocked by Bishop's. When I bought if from Abercrombie & Fitch's in 1964 it weighed 10 pounds encluding a 4X Weaver and Lyman # 48 base. After restocking and removing the 48 it still weighed 9 pounds. Now I have some of the so-called CRF M70's I've done most of my hunting with the one in .300 Win. Mag.Its been very reliable and it has been with me on two trips to Namibia. It has the same safety, trigger, extractor and bolt handle as the older M70's and losing one intransit wouldn't be as bad as losing a pre-54.
John
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/18/08
I like pre 64 Model 70s very pleasing to the eye to look at. Have many good features. From a safety standpoint, pre 64 Model 70 gas handing system did leave a lot to be desired in the event of venting gas. It is one of those things you don't notice unless you actually need it.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/18/08
John: You are not the first to mention the issue of losing a rifle in transit, and I have thought the same thing myself many times.It is pretty frustrating to think you can spend a lot of money buying or building a really good rifle,and then have to leave it home for fear of losing it....a conundrum for sure, but that's the reality of travel today.
I currently have a 7 mag on the classic action with a Kreiger barrel and Brown stock, and while I don't consider them as nice as a pre 64, the Classic works very well.I know where there are a couple of Classics in 300 Win mag and I can't think of anything more practical than one of those as a travel rifle for Africa.I would have to change out the stock though as the tupperware stocks cause me to lose sleep and drink to excess.
I remember your 30/06 and it was a sweet rifle, even though a bit portly.
I currently have a 7 mag on the classic action with a Kreiger barrel and Brown stock, and while I don't consider them as nice as a pre 64, the Classic works very well.I know where there are a couple of Classics in 300 Win mag and I can't think of anything more practical than one of those as a travel rifle for Africa.I would have to change out the stock though as the tupperware stocks cause me to lose sleep and drink to excess.
I remember your 30/06 and it was a sweet rifle, even though a bit portly.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/18/08
Sako Shmako. They're still making Sakos, when was the last time they made a Pre '64 Model 70 Winchester? Two friends of mine went to a collectors gun show today, this show has ONLY collector type guns. No AR-15s or anything like that. One was looking for a Pre '64 preferably in 270, the CHEAPEST one he found was $750. Most were closer to $1000 and some WAY higher than that depending on condition and caliber. Just something to think about.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/18/08
Jungle Jim- Agree completely about the poor pre 64 gas handling system. But if the pre 64 isn't one with collector value, installing one of Ed LaPour's shrouds will deal with the venting.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/18/08
Bob,
The tupperware stocks can be dealt with. On my .300 magnum I had it pillar bedded and tuned up by Carolina Precision Rifles. Not only was it rebedded but the locking lugs were trued and the trigger adjusted plus a couple of other things were done. One of those things was floating the barrel. The nice thing is that it isn't as heavy as the older models, and has all the good features of the pre-64,but if somebody drives a Toyota or Land Rover over it you're not out of a fine and irreplaceable rifle.
John
The tupperware stocks can be dealt with. On my .300 magnum I had it pillar bedded and tuned up by Carolina Precision Rifles. Not only was it rebedded but the locking lugs were trued and the trigger adjusted plus a couple of other things were done. One of those things was floating the barrel. The nice thing is that it isn't as heavy as the older models, and has all the good features of the pre-64,but if somebody drives a Toyota or Land Rover over it you're not out of a fine and irreplaceable rifle.
John
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/19/08
Good idea,John. Think I will go get one of those 300's. I have a 300 Weatherby...it's a 300H&H pre 64 that was rechambered. I was leary of the rechambering since that was done by gunsmiths of varying levels back then, but it shoots like crazy,and I only paid $600 for it.The rechamber job was very well done. I have been thinking of restocking it.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/19/08
1minute,
You go buy that pre 64 rifle in 300 Win. for $600 and I will give you $800 for it as long as the bore is decent..hows that for a deal? In fact I will buy them both.
You go buy that pre 64 rifle in 300 Win. for $600 and I will give you $800 for it as long as the bore is decent..hows that for a deal? In fact I will buy them both.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/19/08
I'm late again. All the good stuff has already been said. I've owned many M70 over the years. My regrets are the ones I sold and the ones I didn't buy.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/19/08
Super T,
Talk about regretting not buying some M70's. The day I bought my pre-war M70 I was in Abercrombie & Fitch's store in NYC it was in 1964. I found the pre-war and after buying it the manager showed a buddy and me around the 6th floor gunroom. There were a lot of nice guns, but what I remember best was four M70 Alaskans sale priced at $145.00 each. They were being sold to make way for the new M70's. I had enough cash to buy them all.
John
Talk about regretting not buying some M70's. The day I bought my pre-war M70 I was in Abercrombie & Fitch's store in NYC it was in 1964. I found the pre-war and after buying it the manager showed a buddy and me around the 6th floor gunroom. There were a lot of nice guns, but what I remember best was four M70 Alaskans sale priced at $145.00 each. They were being sold to make way for the new M70's. I had enough cash to buy them all.
John
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/20/08
Atkinson: Haven't made the deal yet as the owner is out of town tell Wednesday. I'm trying a little low balling on my offer. The Winchester is pulled off the shelf though, and I will likely do the asking price even if they won't move. Not really thinking of selling yet. This will only be the third unit I've picked up as an investment if I close the deal. The first was a Sharps and the second a 1930's vintage Winchester pump 22. Ran some patches down the barrel of the Winnie in the shop yesterday, and except for some remaining copper that I can likely JB out in 5 minutes, it looks perfect on the inside. The first two patches though came out looking like they'd run a coal mine. All the stampings suggest it's the original factory tube, and I did marvel at the level of machining on even some of the smallest parts. I'm really surprised though that people will put something out to sell that's in need of serious cleaning.
Bought a matching numbers 96 Swede (6.5x55) last winter that looked a little rough on the outside, but the barrel was pristine. Cleaned it up, and had I seen it in it's present day condition, I would have paid twice their asking price. That is a very well machined piece of metal too given its age. I got that one to shoot though, and it's getting some metal work done before I start on a new stock.
Probably can't buy both rifles unless I can talk the wife into blowing our incentive check. In a fit of insanity a few months ago, I told her she should take that check and get something for herself. She's a great hunting and fishing partner, but doesn't quite see the same need to acquire unneeded arms and fly rods that I do. Take care and good luck this coming fall. 1Minute
Bought a matching numbers 96 Swede (6.5x55) last winter that looked a little rough on the outside, but the barrel was pristine. Cleaned it up, and had I seen it in it's present day condition, I would have paid twice their asking price. That is a very well machined piece of metal too given its age. I got that one to shoot though, and it's getting some metal work done before I start on a new stock.
Probably can't buy both rifles unless I can talk the wife into blowing our incentive check. In a fit of insanity a few months ago, I told her she should take that check and get something for herself. She's a great hunting and fishing partner, but doesn't quite see the same need to acquire unneeded arms and fly rods that I do. Take care and good luck this coming fall. 1Minute
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/20/08
John: That is a very depressing story.......
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/22/08
They blinked. Closed the deal on the Winchester, and they are paying the fee for the background check. Will pick it up on the way to work in the morning, and I'll be cleaning a rifle tomorrow evening. Going to a giant flea market in Sumpter, Oregon on Saturday. Maybe I can make a find there. Life is good. 1Minute
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/22/08
I stopped in the gun shop the other day to see if my Remington Mtn. rifle had finally sold on commission, it hadn't. It had been a while since I had handled a Remington 700. The action looked long and thin.
Just out of curiosity what are the standard action lengths of a Remington 700 and Winchester Model 70 (from the bolt side forward edge to where the front of the bolt handle locks on the back edge especially)? I don't know if it is the extractor or not but the 70 looks more 'compact' to me. Was curious as to whether it is or not and don't own one to check the measurement myself.
Thanks,
Will
Just out of curiosity what are the standard action lengths of a Remington 700 and Winchester Model 70 (from the bolt side forward edge to where the front of the bolt handle locks on the back edge especially)? I don't know if it is the extractor or not but the 70 looks more 'compact' to me. Was curious as to whether it is or not and don't own one to check the measurement myself.
Thanks,
Will
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/22/08
Just picked up the Win 70 on the way to work, so went to the truck and measured. Bolt length is 5.6 inches from the front edge of the bolt handle to the bolt face. Add another 0.1 inch to get to the forward most portion of the extractor claw. Don't have any 700's in the truck, so can't help there.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/22/08
Thanks 1minute. I'll see how that compares to the other stuff I come in contact with. It may have just been an optical illusion because of the space between the bolt and the rails which the model 70 wouldn't have of course because of the extractor. I suspect they are all fairly close to the same length.
But I've always thought the model 70 was proportioned very well. It just kind of looks like it is the right length, width, diameter, etc to my eye. Always liked them although I've never owned one.
Will
But I've always thought the model 70 was proportioned very well. It just kind of looks like it is the right length, width, diameter, etc to my eye. Always liked them although I've never owned one.
Will
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/23/08
They are superlative but they are heavy. For decades my general purpose hunting rifle was a 1941 Super Grade '06, 9 3/8 pounds loaded with sling and Lyman Alaskan in Stith mounts. This gave way to a 1947 Swift rebored to '06 (to get a 26" barrel) in a Pacific Research stock with a Loopy 1.75-6x, 8 3/8 lbs. Still too heavy as I got older and I now have an Ultra Light .270, 26" special order with Loopy 2.5-8x, 6 7/8 lbs.
Re: Question about pre-64 Model 70's - 05/24/08
The pre-64 M70 actions are shorter than the 700. Theywere opened up to take the H&H cartridges.
I think the M70 was, dollar for dollar, the finest working class rifle ever offered to the American shooter. I like them. I especially like the pre-war models.
Having said that, I would choose a 700 action most times for building a target/varmint rifle. GD
I think the M70 was, dollar for dollar, the finest working class rifle ever offered to the American shooter. I like them. I especially like the pre-war models.
Having said that, I would choose a 700 action most times for building a target/varmint rifle. GD